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EPA Prepares To Roll Back Rules Requiring Cars To Be Cleaner and More Efficient (nytimes.com)

Coral Davenport and Hiroko Tabuchi, reporting for The New York Times: The Trump administration is expected to launch an effort in coming days to weaken greenhouse gas emissions and fuel economy standards for automobiles, handing a victory to car manufacturers and giving them ammunition to potentially roll back industry standards worldwide. The move -- which undercuts one of President Barack Obama's signature efforts to fight climate change -- would also propel the Trump administration toward a courtroom clash with California, which has vowed to stick with the stricter rules even if Washington rolls back federal standards. That fight could end up creating one set of rules for cars sold in California and the 12 states that follow its lead, and weaker rules for the rest of the states, in effect splitting the nation into two markets.

Scott Pruitt, the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, is expected to frame the initiative as eliminating a regulatory burden on automakers that will result in more affordable trucks, vans and sport utility vehicles for buyers, according to people familiar with the plan. An E.P.A. spokeswoman confirmed that Mr. Pruitt had sent a draft of the 16-page plan to the White House for approval.
Further reading: EPA to its employees: Ignore science when talking about climate change (ArsTechnica)

25 of 378 comments (clear)

  1. Disadvantage US manufacturers? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Surely this change in regulation would do more to hurt US car companies that help them? If they don't design and build for efficiency, then surely this would limit their ability to export to any market that cares about efficiency or where fuel costs are already high? This feels like another short term action, just like trying to protect the coal industry, that will end up hurting more in the long run, than doing any real good.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, no, it's MAGA! Making Americans Get Asphyxiated!

    2. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by Kohath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      American car companies make money on trucks and SUVs, not high MPG cars.

    3. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Informative

      "American" cars outside the US are often very different than those sold in the US. US automakers have subsidiaries in quite a few non-US countries, and the cars they make are tailored to local markets.

    4. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by upl8n87447 · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's true. It also makes trucks very dangerous since the majority of drivers aren't in trucks. If a car is an accident with a truck, they will be on the opposite end of that equation and will have a much worse time during that accident.

      Then of course trucks block sight lines, making it much harder to see what's ahead. They take up more space. Are more sluggish to respond. And my personal favorite, have large tires and high backends that allow them to pickup things/rocks in the road and fling them at the cars behind them... since... you know.. there's no mudflap requirement for trucks.

      One of my least comfortable positions on the road is behind a pickup truck. I'd rather drive behind a semi with big fat mudflaps than a pickup truck / SUV / jeep without.

    5. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by bobby · · Score: 3

      Unfortunately fuel efficiency and emissions are often slightly at odds, depending on what you're trying to achieve. Higher compression ratios, more ignition advance, and/or leaner mixtures give better performance and efficiency, but cause more NOx, possibly more CO and HC.

      To function properly, catalytic converters need cycling- they intentionally cycle the engine from rich to lean. Not the best for mpg.

      Diesels have been a huge offender on our highways, and since they _finally_ forced them to be cleaner, they are much much better and we all breathe easier. And it turned out to be fairly easy. Idiots like VW only worsened things for diesels' reputation.

      But overall I agree that the car mfgrs. might hurt themselves in foreign markets, and it's up to them to compete in those markets. Foreign car makers have had to modify cars, or produce special models, or just can't sell certain models in the US, especially California.

    6. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's

      Mueller
      Ain't
      Going
      Away

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
    7. Re:Disadvantage US manufacturers? by rally2xs · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, not "only because." Another big reason is because of these new laws requiring child safety seats. Try getting your triplets into a regular car. Ain't happenin'. You need an SUV or van for all those huge child safety seats, esp. when you can't put any in the front because of the accursed air bag (I've NEVER been in a situation where an air bag would have done me the slightest bit of good, and I've been driving for 54 years.) So, you get kids, and want to go somewhere as a family all in the same vehicle, can you say "SUV?" I knew you could...

  2. CAFE standards by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

    CAFE (Corp Average Fuel Economy) standards were always a silly way of doing things, since they specified average economy within a given class of vehicle. Car, truck, later there were more categories based on wheelbase and width. It encouraged automakers to make more "trucks" that were used as cars, actually lowering real-life average fuel economy for the cars on US roads.

    Better solution would be to tax fuel at a fairly high rate and let the markets decide what to buy. Use the tax money to subsidize clean (electric) transport like electric cars and trains, roll out charging stations, encourage solar installation, maybe even subsidize the (relatively clean compared to fossil fuels) nuclear power industry.

  3. If Obama had found the cure for cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I swear to God, if Obama had found the cure for cancer, these f.cking trumptards would repell it, and in a sickening display of intellectual travesty, they would somehow claim that this is a Good Thing (tm).

    Seriously, you can't be more ideological than this. Way more than those so called leftist SJWs they condemn and whine about all the time.

    Trumptards are hell-bent on bringing society back to the dark ages, when humanity basically acted like a cancer of the planet. And they're proud of it.

    1. Re: If Obama had found the cure for cancer by Uberbah · · Score: 3, Funny

      Moreover, this "debate" is like most others - the so-called champions of science have long since abandoned any hope of convincing cultists with facts, reasoning or citations and have learned to just ignore those engaging in willful dumbfuckery

      FTFY

  4. Re:Victors by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is a victory for consumers, who would otherwise be forced to pay much higher prices for automobiles.

    In the spirit of Good Friday, I'm not going to call you a dumb sonofabitch.

    http://time.com/money/4702421/...

    The extreme warming predictions have proven wrong. We are heading into a solar grand minimum. The only people who need to worry about global warming are the alarmists who have staked their careers on it.

    OK, you're a dumb sonofabitch.

    https://www.giss.nasa.gov/rese...

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  5. Re:Two Words by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 5, Informative

    California already has stricter emission standards that have held up in court (for new cars, you can still bring a "Federal standard" used car into CA if it exceeds 15,000 miles on the clock).

    Some counties ban alcohol sale, others allow it year around. Some states allow AR-15s, others ban them from sale. States don't have an obligation to allow a given item to be sold in their state or city.

  6. Re:Two Words by Jahoda · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...b...b...b..ut you guys keep telling us about states' rights and limited government interference! Surely you aren't just a sour-grapes hypocrite more concerned with "sticking it" to whatever you imagine liberalism and by extension California to be?

    LOL, anyway, I'm sure _this_ will be the time that the courts side with the Trump administration, over the last 50 years of California's regulation of emissions produced by vehicles in their state.

  7. Re:Victors by tim620 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are free to believe whatever you want. However, we all need to worry about global warming. It is really happening and is really man-man. The science is correct. I tend to believe the scientists who have studied this for many years, over conservative politicians and talk show hosts.

  8. Re:"handing a victory to car manufacturers " by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Really? So if Ford was offering a 10mpg car and Honda was offering a 35mpg comparable car, you gonna buy the Ford? How many car manufacturers are out there? You are free to buy from the most fuel efficient car maker. And buying a more fuel efficient car saves you money, so why would you need a law to force you to buy the more fuel efficient model? Why not a law to force CPU makers minimum flops? Or RAM makers minimum Ram speeds? Or hard driver makers minimum terabytes?

    That's a strawman.

    The choice will be more like a 35mpg Honda and 25mph Ford that costs $2000 less, has a more powerful engine, but also emits a *lot* more pollutants of all types, not just CO2, but the smog inducing pollutants that have a direct link in killing people.

    Many people will take the cheap, faster car even if it kills children since that killing is an indirect link, which is why the regulation is needed.

  9. Re:They just run two production lines by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >half our budget just went to the military.

    Umm, no.

    US Military budget is around 630 billion dollars. Total Federal budget is north of 4 trillion dollars.

    Even if you only count discretionary spending, the military budget is maybe 40% of the budget, at most.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  10. Re:I thought we already had this by Holi · · Score: 3, Informative

    Several states follow California

    Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico , New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia.

    So it's not quite 49 to 1.

    --
    Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
  11. Re:About Time by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The sooner Mar-a-lago goes underwater, the better, baby!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  12. the military budget is maybe 40% of the budget by whathappenedtomonday · · Score: 5, Funny

    > the military budget is maybe 40% of the budget, at most.

    Phew. The OP almost got me worried. I feel very much relieved now. Thanks a bunch for that!

    --
    I hope I didn't brain my damage.
    1. Re:the military budget is maybe 40% of the budget by rally2xs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      " A lot of countries spent far less on defense, and remain oddly uninvaded."

      Because WE are protecting them with OUR (very expensive) military. Before he was elected, before he was even running for election, Donald Trump mentioned in interviews that some big benficiaries of our defense spending should start coughing up for its creation and maintenance. I favor that. If you're in such a situation that you're in danger if the US military goes home, then you should be paying for it.

  13. Re:Split by jeff4747 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The right feeds the left, or haven't you looked at the political demographics of the US farming communities?

    Those farming communities are heavily reliant on "liberal" areas to fund their existence. That's why CA only gets back 80-someodd cents of every tax dollar, while "farming" states turn a profit on federal taxes.

    So I think the evil liberal commies could afford to take some of your subsidy and use it to buy food on the global market.

  14. Tax fuel to mitigate pollution by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Better solution would be to tax fuel at a fairly high rate and let the markets decide what to buy

    I totally agree, but then...

    Use the tax money to subsidize clean (electric) transport

    No, wait, no, stop. Don't subsidize anything with this money. And you can't afford to subsidize things anyway, once you look closer at your true liabilities.

    Use this money to mitigate the effects of the pollution. Plant forests with it. Build atmospheric scrubbers. Use it to treat people who are sick from pollution. Use it to build multi-trillion-dollar projects to put our coastal cities on stilts. That sort of stuff.

    The goal of the tax should simply be end the subsidy that we're currently giving to everyone who burns things. You won't need to give incentives to cleaner tech, because they'll already have the incentive of their users accruing less tax to clean up after themselves.

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  15. Disingenuous and Sensationalist by sycodon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The headlines on this story have all been uniformly Disingenuous and Sensationalist.

    Twelve Mile a gallon cars are NOT going to be coming back, Standards are not going to be weakened.

    What is changing is that the highly unrealistic target of 50 mpg for fleet average requirements in 2025 are going to be scaled down to something that is actually achievable.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Disingenuous and Sensationalist by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What is changing is that the highly unrealistic target of 50 mpg for fleet average requirements in 2025 are going to be scaled down to something that is actually achievable.

      Unrealistic? Really? The Prius does better than that right now. And AFAIK, all EVs do *much* better than that in terms of miles per gallon-equivalent-amount-of-power. All it takes to hit that target is to produce more electric vehicles, more hybrids, and fewer gas hogs. It literally requires nothing more than changing the number of vehicles in each category that you build, while working to push down the price of electric vehicles to be more affordable. How is that unrealistic? Beyond, I mean, the possibly unrealistic goal of getting automakers to stop dragging their heels and whining and screaming like petulant children....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.