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The Gig Economy Keeps Growing, But Worker Benefits Aren't (technologyreview.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from MIT Technology Review: According to a new report out from Brookings, the number of non-employer firms -- primarily incorporated freelancers and gig-economy workers -- has grown 2.6 percent every year since 1997. By contrast, payroll employment has grown by only 0.8 percent annually in that time. That means a growing number of people lack employer-sponsored benefits like paid leave, health care, and retirement assistance. The Aspen Institute has proposed a system of portable benefits that are not tied to one job. Companies would make contributions to a worker's benefits on the basis of how much the employee works for them. To date, the U.S. government has not been helpful. House and Senate bills supporting gig-worker benefits have died in committee. But state and local governments are taking action. Washington, California, New York, and New Jersey are exploring avenues to provide benefits to their gig workers.

154 comments

  1. What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    To date, the U.S. government has not been helpful. House and Senate bills mandating gig-worker benefits have died in committee.

    FTFY

    1. Re:What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gig-work is meant to undermine worker benefits by turning everybody into a private contractor who gets no benefits.
      If it is lowering costs to business owners as well, then it is working entirely as designed.
      Anybody who expected a different outcome is just a sucker

    2. Re:What, is it illegal? by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

      Gig-work is meant to undermine worker benefits by turning everybody into a private contractor who gets no benefits.

      Nonsense!

      Lack of *employer-sponsored benefits* does not mean a lack of benefits. One can buy health insurance, invest in health savings plans, and whatever other investment strategies you'd prefer like money markets, stocks, bonds, etc. As much or as little, any combination or none at all, whatever the individual chooses.

      It's all about asking oneself how much individual liberty are you prepared to be responsible for? How much of your life do you want government and corporations involved in?

      Having everyone as working-dead meat-popsicle in wage-slave dependency, working cookie-cutter corporate cubicle job-hells makes Zorg's layoffs (and the implied political-economic*control*) from The Fifth Element possible.

      Remember, the easiest way to solve "income inequality" is to make everyone equally poor.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    3. Re:What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For many workers this is exactly what it means. They do not make enough money to buy health insurance or save for retirement. Individual choice is limited by how much money you have.

    4. Re:What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So they fail at negotiating a price or takes out a too high salary for the work they do.

      If i get paid $100 for some work i have to:
      - Pay for health-insurance.
      - Pay for any other benefits i want in my company.
      - Save a bit of money to cover for periods when i don't have a gig.
      - Save a bit of money for conferences and courses i want to attend.
      Remainder after this is what i can use for salary and on that i have to:
      - Pay social security-tax
      - Pay income-tax
      - Pay myself some salary..

      If i want a higher hourly salary i have to charge more than $100 or reduce the benefits or save less money..

      If the company see's that they can make $130 of you they have a $30 profit-margin and with that knowledge you know that you could probably go as high as $110-115 since the company would still make a profit of you.. But they also have the same thing.. If someone is willing to do the same work for $90 the company would go for that instead. You have to know your market to know what you can charge. It may also be beneficial to help other consultants with market information since that will help push up the price everyone charges while still allowing the company you are working for to be profitable.

      But the biggest benefits with being your own freelance consultant is not the salary.. It's being able to decide what you want to do with your life..
      - Taking 2 month's vacation per year is not a problem.... (But usually just the time between gig's)
      - Freedom to choose what you want to work with and what new skills you want to pursue..
      - Freedom to choose where you make the benefits/salary split.
      - Freedom to choose to take a lower salary for a year and then using saved money while not working the following year.
      - A company cannot force you to travel or do some other crap work unless you have it in the contract. If not you can choose to do it at a higher rate.
      - If you travel you get to choose your travel-arrangement. You should have something in the contract for this. Possible things to include: Fixed price per day. Fixed price per travelling hour and you buy airplane tickets. Possibility of extra surcharge when traveling with short notice (3 weeks) to cover for increased costs of airplane tickets.

      Downsides:
      - Your own bookkeeping. But not too hard with the online services available today.
      - A few hours of unpaid administrative work per month..
      - A bit less security the first 6-12 months. (Do have some money saved before starting something like this.)
      - You have to keep a good reputation so you need to think much more of what you say.. Not talking about politics is a good idea ;)
      - You have to negotiate about the contract with every place you work.. Some larger companies do not like using others contracts, but can usually be managed via higher hourly rates and/or crossing out things from their existing standard contract. Using a standard-contract does usually do allow for a addition where you can specify your fees for traveling and such things. If not do make sure your exact work-description (Working with X, for H amount of hours, on site Y and have responsibilities of Z) do get included. Don't forget about having a clause about if you get sick!!! Any contract renewal time should preferably be ~2 month's before the contract ends.

      I like it because it gives so much freedoms..
      If i want to take some time off i can do it..
      If i want to spend a shitload of money and time to learn something new i can do it..
      For each contract i have i know i have security for the next 1 to 12 months, and if they decide to cut down they either have to buy me out of the contract or keep you on for the remaining time.

    5. Re: What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the workers are entitled and also want to be able to eat every day.

    6. Re:What, is it illegal? by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      How much of your life do you want government and corporations involved in?

      As I see it, my corporation is involved way too much in decisions about my healthcare. I either have to let them choose what is covered or lose the entire benefit.

      Such a law would help everyone shop around, even those in a full-time position.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    7. Re:What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is true, but maybe that is a problem of money rather than benefits. I always thought that freelancing should pay better than a salaried job, because of the extra risk you take on. But in the gig economy, hourly rates seem to be extremely low. That is the key of the problem.

    8. Re: What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You cant buy those benefits when the pay is the same or lower than the compared job with benefits included. That math will never add up. And with the shift the pay will get lower. Also the benefits will become more expensive when you buy them for yourself instead of someone negotiating for a 1000 persons.

    9. Re:What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this all falls apart when the average worker is unable to assimilate domain specific knowledge to become an informed consumer. We are just too busy, and over a lifetime with thousands of choices to make, risk accumulates.

    10. Re: What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck all that, I'll just work a normal salaried job

    11. Re: What, is it illegal? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you aren't delivering food on a bike 12 hours a day.

    12. Re: What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You cant buy those benefits when the pay is the same or lower than the compared job with benefits included.

      It depends on the job and the market. Not all are the same. Those who do their research can do extremely well.

      You need to think out of the box as well. If you build a good reputation as a residential electrician or plumber you van make Silicon Valley wages and retire quite comfortably. Even a house painter or roofer with a good reputation can do very well if he picks his market area wisely.

      The same goes if you've got a solid reputation as a residential remodeling contractor. Many of the occupations I listed and more can grow into the commercial contracting arena where there is even more money waiting to be made. It's far from Mike Rowe and "Dirty Jobs".

      If you do well you'kk soon not need to be working at job sites or even supervising them personally as you'll have underlings and crews.

      If you doubt me, just go to your local airport where the private planes hangar and are parked on the tarmac. Same with large marinas and those huge expensive vessels. I've worked at both places. Talk to some of the pilot-owners and owners of the vessels and ask what they do/did for a living to afford such toys. You'll find that maybe 15%-20% of them are/were lawyers, doctors, etc. Most by far built a business as I described.

      The scary part is that "it's all you, baby!".It's up to you to take responsibility to see after your own life-essentials like health insurance, regulatory compliance, income taxes, your employee's payroll, your inventory and supplies, any capital equipment, keeping good accounting ledgers, etc etc.

      There's a whole world out there of occupations to make an honorable and lucrative living at that does not involve "tech". The next time you get on the highway in your area in summer and see that decked out super-cab pickup with the dual-rears and hauling that huge power boat behind it? He might be the guy that owns the company that put a new roof on your house, repaired your water pipes, or performed the house wiring upgrade to a modern, safer electrical circuit breaker box. Or the guy that owns the local commercial janitorial/maintenance service cleaning malls, offices, supermarkets/department stores.

      You get to choose whatever you want and do it however you want.

      But you also get to own the results and the consequences if you fail.

    13. Re:What, is it illegal? by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For many workers this is exactly what it means. They do not make enough money to buy health insurance or save for retirement. Individual choice is limited by how much money you have.

      Err...because in the real ADULT world of work, especially if you incorporate and do 1099 contract work, you'd better put on your big boy pants, and realize to do it full time, you need to learn to find jobs that have a high enough bill rate that you can negotiate for your needs.

      This isn't rocket surgery, you need to figure what you need for expenses, (your salary you pay to yourself), and also out of that bill rate you figure in enough for you to take off maybe 3 weeks a year for vacation/sick leave...you set up a HSA (Health Savings Account) and fully fund it pre-tax with money you put into your bill rate to pay routine medical expenses, and finally..yes, you calculate enough into your bill rate to pay for medical insurance.

      If you are not working in an area that you can bill that much, then you have a couple of choices...work multiple gigs at once that can pay this amount totaled together, or realize this is just side money, and you need a W2 regular job until you are valuable enough with your skills to negotiate jobs that pay enough to do 1099 full time.

      This isn't for everyone.

      But if you are an adult, can act like an adult....and take care of yourself, your work, paperwork, taxes, etc....it can be a fulfilling work lifestyle, it can be lucrative and there is a good amount of freedom to enjoy from it.

      I personally like the S-corp filing for my business....extra paperwork etc....BUT, it allows me to save substantially on how much of my bill rate I have to pay in employment taxes (SS/medicare)....

      But again, this isn't for everyone....you have to know what you cost to live, and bill accordingly and hunt only jobs that pay that much...otherwise, this is not a full time "gig" for you.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:What, is it illegal? by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      I always thought that freelancing should pay better than a salaried job,

      It can and often does....you just need to have skills valuable enough to commend the bill rate that can sustain you as a full time "gig".

      If you aren't making that kind of $$ doing 1099, then you face facts that this is either just extra income to embellish the regular W2 job you really need, or you just find it isn't worth your time.

      We should all be adults here, and these are very simple and plain choices to make here.

      No one is holding a gun to your head to do this.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:What, is it illegal? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      When you calculate your rate, I hope you incorporate all hours doing paperwork, promoting yourself. When you're a corporation you basically have three jobs on top of your one job so the wage had better be enough for four jobs. Plus health coverage.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    16. Re:What, is it illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such duplicity, arrogance, and ignorance all rolled into a single comment. I would suggest additional readings to inform your limited worldview. Here are a few suggestions to get you started:

      https://www.amazon.com/Aint-Makin-Aspirations-Attainment-Neighborhood/dp/0813343585
      https://www.amazon.com/Days-Destruction-Revolt-Chris-Hedges/dp/1568588240
      https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Mankind-Essays-Lectures-1969-2013/dp/160846363X
      https://www.amazon.com/Requiem-American-Dream-Principles-Concentration/dp/1609807367

      Following these suggestions I would suggest an exploration of the construct of privilege. Your comment seems to indicate that your are unfamiliar with the concept, or how multiple forms of it have shaped your economic status.

      Feel free to leave additional comments when you have a more informed worldview.

    17. Re:What, is it illegal? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Gig-work is meant to undermine worker benefits by turning everybody into a private contractor who gets no benefits.

      Nonsense!

      Lack of *employer-sponsored benefits* does not mean a lack of benefits. One can buy health insurance, invest in health savings plans, and whatever other investment strategies you'd prefer like money markets, stocks, bonds, etc. As much or as little, any combination or none at all, whatever the individual chooses.

      Sure, just like there is no different between the cost of aspirin from the drug store where it is a buyer's market and the emergency room where it is a seller's market.

    18. Re:What, is it illegal? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      When you calculate your rate, I hope you incorporate all hours doing paperwork, promoting yourself. When you're a corporation you basically have three jobs on top of your one job so the wage had better be enough for four jobs. Plus health coverage.

      Actually, yes I do....indeed one has to put on their "big boy pants", and take responsibility for the planning, paperwork, promotion....paying monthly and quarterly taxes (payroll, etc)...and insurance, AND invest your retirement money.

      It isn't for everyone, but it isn't rocket surgery either.

      Almost nothing nice comes without some effort.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  2. The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Everyone thinks they deserve something for nothing. Premium benefits, unlimited time off, first class insurance. All paid for by someone else. Look, if you're driving people around from point A to point B, or answering customer complain calls for a living, you aren't doing something that's worth those kind of benefits. Sucks, but it's true. Improve your skills, become marketable, hoist yourself up by your own petards, and join the economy as a maker and not a taker.

    1. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if you are a CEO driving a corporation into bankruptcy with your incompetence then you clearly deserve nothing. Heck, if you want benefits, sell yourself into slavery. Then you become valuable property and will be taken care of by your owner.

    2. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by As_I_Please · · Score: 4, Informative

      hoist yourself up by your own petards

      You know this phrase means killing yourself, right? Seems less than helpful advice.

    3. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Improve your skills, become marketable, hoist yourself up by your own petards, and join the economy as a maker and not a taker.

      What the hell does this drivel actually mean? Improve ones skill and then be blown up by a bomb you created?

    4. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hoist yourself up by your own petards

      You know this phrase means killing yourself, right? Seems less than helpful advice.

      Still beats driving for Uber.

    5. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2, Funny

      I took my first uber ride last week (I came along for the ride with a friend). The driver really seemed to enjoy the job and had quit his full time job a few months earlier to concentrate on driving. He said he'd driven over 200k miles in the previous year.

    6. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0, Troll

      hoist yourself up by your own petards

      You know this phrase means killing yourself, right? Seems less than helpful advice.

      Well, it's better than the Republican health plan - "Please die quickly!"

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    7. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Improve your skills, become marketable, hoist yourself up by your own petards, and join the economy as a maker and not a taker.

      What the hell does this drivel actually mean? Improve ones skill and then be blown up by a bomb you created?

      Sounds like a replacement for Obamacare.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    8. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Too bad everything is locked down "forever minus one day" otherwise others might try to create instead of take.

      The whole point of the "gig" economy is to strip workers of their protections by classifying them as "self-employed" contractors who have much less benefits and legally required protections, (no workman's comp, health insurance, or overtime pay) while still effectivelly treating them as employees. (Dictating their work hours, pay, job requirements, and firing options.) We've seen this coming for awhile now with the whole lack of employer trust, and constant desire to marginalize the workforce and render everyone replaceable. (C-Levels exempt of course.) It's just the latest move by greedy shareholders desperately trying to squeeze indefinite growth out of a finite resource pool.

      Of course that's capitalism for you, the losses are always socialised. Society is always expected to pick up the tab for corporate screw ups. Whether that screw up is wage theft, or too big to fail is irrelevant. They "couldn't possibly have known about such risks." But when profits are to be had, suddenly they "are solely responsible for this great achievement." Even if the achievement was produced solely with public funds.

      I'm personally waiting for the company store to make a come back under the guise of "helping our workers keep more of their hard earned money."

    9. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF do you mean by something for nothing?

      These are working people. Gig = job since you don't seem to know that.

    10. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      National insurance works pretty well. Just ask those damn socialist countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.. They keep productivity up by keeping their workers well cared for and out of bankruptcy and poverty traps, which are far more expensive to corporations and governments.

    11. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Screw you you right wing nut job, my employer until recently hired people directly and filled gaps with short term contract employees. After being bought out they have laid off over half of it's full time employees and has replaced them with short term contract employees, a few whom were actual employees hired back at a lower wage with no benefits. At the same time existing non executive level employees had also had their wages held stagnant, and the executives got great big bonuses.

      Keep in mind that the company had a net profit of 600+ million.

    12. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sort of... You have to produce more value than you are paid for the business to work. Your compensation, including benefits, isn't going to be greater than the value that you produce. We can get to a place where more people have better benefits through efficiency improvements.

    13. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let them eat cake.

    14. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And blame the socialists for tying health insurance to jobs. That happened when FDR instituted wage controls.

    15. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The gig economy has always been around, what's different this time is exactly what you're talking about. When it was people like my mother working part time for packet change or to supplement my father's income while still raising children, it wasn't much of an issue.

      The difference is that people are increasingly forced into those sorts of arrangements to make ends meet as employers have more and more power to negotiate salary. So, folks turn to the gig economy as an essential part of their income rather than as pocket money.

      The worst thing about it is that corporate profits are the highest they've ever been. There's literally no justification for not paying workers a living wage. And our economy would probably be doing even better as people at the bottom would have money with which to pay for goods and services.

    16. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's how you make yourself valuable folks, become the biggest tool you can.

    17. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by EvilSS · · Score: 4, Funny

      hoist yourself up by your own petards

      You know this phrase means killing yourself, right? Seems less than helpful advice.

      Well it would reduce the labor market, driving up demand, pay, and benefits so..... it kinda works.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    18. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by rlk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We still need people to drive people around from point A to point B, answer customer complaint calls, and that. It doesn't matter how much people improve their skills and all that, somebody has to do those jobs; we still need them, and there aren't enough engineering, executive, what have you jobs to go around for everyone and there never will be.

      Are you willing to say that it's OK that some people, no matter how hard they work, have to live on the margins? Because I don't think that that's a very healthy society.

    19. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has nothing to do with incompetence. Their goals are not like the goals we've been told.
      The optimal CEO path is a leveraged buyout to sell to KKR or the like, strip the corporation of it's assets, and take a multi-tens-of-millions bonus.
      Then take over another company, lather rinse repeat.

    20. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone thinks they deserve something for nothing. Premium benefits, unlimited time off, first class insurance. All paid for by someone else. Look, if you're driving people around from point A to point B, or answering customer complain calls for a living, you aren't doing something that's worth those kind of benefits. Sucks, but it's true. Improve your skills, become marketable, hoist yourself up by your own petards, and join the economy as a maker and not a taker.

      You are either still in high school, or perhaps have made it as far as your sophomore year in college.
      Grownups who have real jobs in the real world know better than that drivel you posted.

    21. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think there is a fundamental class problem growing in America where we want and need certain menial jobs done, we just don't want the people performing them to actually have a living wage or any type of comfortable living standard.

      And what have we resorted to? If a job doesn't require at least four years "higher level" education where most people become indentured servants to a student debt in the process, then it's beneath consideration; both for the position and the perform in that position. And now most jobs require a higher degree although the fundamental difficulty or knowledge in many of those jobs hasn't changed much, other than the company gaining a human resources department that doesn't know how to test for competence other than through expensive degrees.

      I'm not sure I want to live in the country these economic bigots are implementing. Communism has been derided as the "equal sharing of misery", and it's true, but this brand of cut-throat capitalism with all the bootstrap bravado doesn't strike me as much better. How else do we explain an ever-sinking middle class that has heaped on increasing demands on its workers with decreasing benefits since at least the 1970s? Most of them are a single emergency away from utter destitution.

      Yes, yes, everyone is now a brand, has to market himself, and other shallow arguments that makes me think the person making them is actually a stockboy more used dealing with soda bottles, while daydreaming he's not some exploited proletariat but just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire.

    22. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, he put 200k miles of wear and tear on his personal vehicle and thinks that he is doing well because he has not factored that into his comparison to a job that did not require him to run his car into the ground

    23. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's 546 miles per day or 23 miles every hour or nearly 70 miles every hour of an 8 hour work day.

      Either the driver was full of shit or you are.

    24. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple - The US spent the peopleâ(TM)s surplus on going to war all over the place

    25. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh? What is 8 hour workday? With Uber you work as much as you want. The driver may have worked all day every day just napping during slow hours.

    26. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who do you think "shareholders" are? They're not some nameless character sitting on yacht. They're me, and you, and your neighbor. The amount of 401k and IRA money in these corporations is enormous. And we all want our 401k's to grow at better than "expected" rates don't we? Well, this is the consequence. It's "free" growth of our money, but the "free" is actually really expensive. The cost is that John and Jane Doe get screwed in the side-hustle with no benefits. Fucking side-hustle term makes me want to gut the person who says it. Side-hustle = 2nd job.

    27. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And blame the socialists for tying health insurance to jobs. That happened when FDR instituted wage controls.

      [citation needed]

    28. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Overly tired taxi drivers who only take cat naps are not want I want to travel in, or share the road with me. Driving limits are one of the reasonable regulations on taxi drivers

    29. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I charge, depending on type of work and length of contract, between $70 to $140 per hour as a freelance consultant.
      This allows me to have an average income of around $16k per month *to the company*.. From this i of course need to deduct taxes, benefits, vacation-time, saving money for slow periods (a few month's between gigs sometime).
      I pay myself somewhere between $3k to $6k per month, after tax, depending on how the finances look in the company. For me it's better to keep the money in the company until i need it and only pay myself what i need for the coming month.

      (do not live in the US, and the taxes here are insane)

    30. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People working gig jobs are often those that cannot afford retirement savings, assuming they also want to eat.

    31. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The UK has terrible productivity growth, and with Brexit I expect higher employment and a reduction in welfare benefits and rights for workers in a few years.

    32. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if there is a market for what they produce. The economic system is a series of feedbacks, and if increased efficiency allows a market to be served, then employees will be let go. Benefits tend to depend on the ability for workers to negotiate them in a market for workers, not output versus cost, except where employers are particularly benevolent.

      If a market expands as efficiency increases, then workers are not lost, and may have more bargaining power in an expanding economy. If efficiency rises, the market is static, and workers cannot find workers elsewhere, then workers may have weak bargaining power in a declining economy.

      Generally, increased efficiency increases is beneficial for economies, although not necessarily for individual workers. A lot of what we consider wealth is ultimately derived from what we mine or harvest, combined with how efficiently it and its derivatives are used, and information flows to organise it all.

    33. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said. Note politicians, managers, AMA and the top 5% are exempt.
      Note that corporate taxes have declined relate to personal income tax, revenue or share prices over the last 20 years! You will also note with a bit of SQL that 'new jobs created' do not have a 1:1 correlation with retirement plan savings or health plans - or payroll tax where applicable. Cash in hand means bigger future social security costs.

      Thus public housing, homelessness. rough sleeping, and untreated medical conditions are on the up curve, big-time. The Gig economy is producing swinging voters though, and extreme whatever votes. When easy credit ends agai, there will be a bigger 2008 fall,

    34. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that was one of the selling points of Obama care. Didn't Pelosi make some bs comments about how now that people had guaranteed healthcare they didn't need to worry about full time jobs and could pursue art and other crap?

      Found the quote:

      March 8th, 2012

      “As you hear from these stories, this is a liberation,” Pelosi said at a Capitol Hill news conference Thursday.

      “This is what our founders had in mind--ever expanding opportunity for people.

      “You want to be a photographer or a writer or a musician, whatever -- an artist, you want to be self-employed, if you want to start a business, you want to change jobs, you no longer are prohibited from doing that because you can’t have access to health care, especially because you do not want to put your family at risk,” she said.

      The House Democratic Leader appeared alongisde House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) and Rep. James Clyburn (D-S.C.), to celebrate the health care law that was passed two years ago Friday.

    35. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I thought that was one of the selling points of Obama care. Didn't Pelosi make some bs comments about how now that people had guaranteed healthcare they didn't need to worry about full time jobs and could pursue art and other crap?

      Life is long and hard. It's even harder when your humor gland is missing.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    36. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gig actually means a temporary, one time job.

    37. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's one I found in 30 seconds on my phone.

      https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-obamacare-health-care-employers-20170224-story,amp.html

    38. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You used the word "job" so we agree.

    39. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Are there no prisons? And the union workhouses -- are they still in operation? ... If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population!"

      Look Marie, you may not like the peasants, but there are hella more of them then there are rich sociopaths like you.

      Madame Defarge is knitting away. Oh, and look, she just added your name.

    40. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      National insurance works pretty well. Just ask those damn socialist countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.

      Well, if the US were to stop using OUR military funded from OUR taxes here to run protection for Europe and many other places around the world...and those countries then had to spend their own tax dollars for their own defense, I think we'd see them having to maybe pull back on all the "free" socialist health offerings.

      Frankly, I'm all for it.....let them see how it does without this "hidden" subsidy they have to their economy from the US.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    41. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Are you willing to say that it's OK that some people, no matter how hard they work, have to live on the margins?

      Well, "that's life"....and it always has been.

      Not everyone is born equal, not with equal physical or mental faculties, and yes, some are luckier than others.

      But that is nature and that is human life and has been since the dawn of time.

      Nothing is going to change that...the best you can do is offer conditions so that people can use their gifts they do have, and figure out and struggle to better themselves.

      But life is tough....and life doesn't owe you a damned thing.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    42. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by rlk · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be that way -- we can decide as a society that everyone's basic rights do include affordable access to healthcare, for instance. Yes, that means people will have to pay taxes and such. But that doesn't make it impossible to accomplish.

    43. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really beleive you put your military power around the world to "help" those countries for free?

      Most of the time it is for posturing and to assert authority in an area half way around the world to "protect your own interests".

      Many of those nations would also like you to close your bases as well. Given that, why dont they close?

    44. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be that way -- we can decide as a society that everyone's basic rights do include affordable access to healthcare, for instance. Yes, that means people will have to pay taxes and such. But that doesn't make it impossible to accomplish.

      Sorry, I don't buy into it.

      I really am not my brothers keeper, and the US was not set up to, by force of law, redistribute wealth in order to make me be my brothers keeper.

      It was set up to let the individualist succeed.

      I"m not completely cold hearted, I don't have a problem with a basic social safety net for the elderly or truly infirmed....those that cannot take care of themselves and work, but for everyone else that is able bodied? You're responsible for yourself....live with your life decisions, and don't bother me.

      I love to give and help out my family and friends, but there's no compelling reason for me to be forced to support others who can take care of themselves or should depend on their families/friends for help.

      The US was built on the individual....and the more we keep forgetting that, the faster we are going downhill.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    45. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      That's why your society is on its way down the toilet. You can't make one out of individuals.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    46. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by rlk · · Score: 1

      So again, the problem is what about people who are working full time, but on low-paying jobs (which is where this got started)? We still need those sales clerks, call center staffers, janitors, what have you. And there isn't enough demand for engineers, managers, skilled tradespeople, higher level sales people, and all that to ensure that there are positions available for everyone. You say you expect everyone who's able-bodied to work, but aren't then prepared to ensure that everyone who's working can live on the compensation.

      Don't say "it's about better education" or whatnot -- more supply of skilled labor doesn't ensure that the demand for it will be there. Again, are you good with telling hard working people "sucks to be you, but you're on your own, pal"?

    47. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Well, it's better than the Republican health plan - "Please die quickly!"

      Life is long and hard. It's even longer without a sense of humor. But hard to feel sorry for ya if you don't have one.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    48. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I understand the line without the sarcasm tag, I wanted to be sure others did as well.

    49. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The worst thing about it is that corporate profits are the highest they've ever been. There's literally no justification for not paying workers a living wage.

      Isn't high profits a justification?

    50. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      We still need people to drive people around from point A to point B

      Automated taxis are close.

      answer customer complaint calls

      Not since the last few times I have called customer service. If you have a long enough phone tree, then all customer service calls are resolved before requiring a human.

      Are you willing to say that it's OK that some people, no matter how hard they work, have to live on the margins? Because I don't think that that's a very healthy society.

      We already do that and it is not.

    51. Re:The socialism drum beats on. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      That's why your society is on its way down the toilet.

      I'm a bit more optimistic, I don't necessarily think it is on its way down the toilet, but I do see decline.

      I think the decline IS due to the more "progressive" teachings that have now taken ahold of the last couple generations.

      Kids are no longer being raised to respect elders or each other, they don't value education. We've systematically been deterring boys from becoming men, and feminizing them. We've been more and more, pushing people into the government hand out lines and mentality. People don't value life as much anymore...etc.

      The US isn't nearly as homogeneous in its general thinking as it once was.....diversity has divided in many ways, but that comes with the territory somewhat I guess. But whereas it largely was a united country along basic, basic lines....we have been fractionalized (is that a word?), and with 24/7 news and social medial, each small fraction just listens and feeds to itself, and if you say something different, you get shouted down rather than allowing conversations to find happy mediums between views.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    52. Re: The socialism drum beats on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You left out the glamorous parts like sleeping in the car overnight at 24x7 brick-and-mortar retail store parking lots, car repairs, etc

  3. Shocking! by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The "gig-economy" isn't a new concept. This is how things used to be before there were unions. What happened was laborers were exploited and then unionized to fight back for fair treatment. The outcome here will be no different, even if different means are used.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re: Shocking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Is that the dewy eyed crap they teach in school now? I think you should read a real history of labor unions instead of the pablum you just spewed.

    2. Re: Shocking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't you be too busy manning your gloryhole to be posting to Slashdot? Are too many Apple employees working late tonight so you don't have many customers?

    3. Re: Shocking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're talking about modern unions.
      Unions were originally created out of necessity. People were literally being gunned down by thugs their boss would hire before unions were formed.

    4. Re:Shocking! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The "gig-economy" isn't a new concept. This is how things used to be before there were unions.

      Not at all. You're just comparing the benefits. The actual work process is incredibly different. If it needed to be compared to anything it would be to labour-for-hire companies.

    5. Re: Shocking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That isn't dewy eyed crap. That's a threat from someone who thinks the ends justify the means when it comes to overthrowing the government and forcing everyone to live under communism.

    6. Re: Shocking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that the dewy eyed crap they teach in school now? I think you should read a real history of labor unions instead of the pablum you just spewed.

      It's probably from the same history books circulating these days that also defines the 2nd Amendment as only applying to militias.

  4. insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    12000 PER year in insurance.

    Yeah. In 1999 12k per year would have bought me a full coverage plan with 0 co pay for my whole family and then some etc etc etc.

    This year that buys me basically catastrophic coverage for 2 people.

    We dumped HUGE sums of cash into the system and all of the pencil pushers raised the prices accordingly.

    1. Re: insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obamacare hasn't been as good as it should have been, but it has been an improvement.

      Liar!!! Shut your whore mouth!

    2. Re:insurance by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      According to the Economist there is significant rent seeking in the US healthcare industry.

      And a mind boggling set of layers that push funds and rebates back and forth between them, skimming profit as they go.

      Let's hope someone like Amazon can come in and clean this us into a straightforward, more transparent and more efficient architecture

      My take away from reading the article was that it seems incredible to me that someone had not stepped in before

      --
      Nullius in verba
    3. Re:insurance by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      That price is before the insurance companies add on the penalties, too.

      Sign up for our mandatory blood tests and "lifestyle counseling" in the form of long, probing questionnaires, or we'll charge you a $500 wellness tax... I mean, you won't qualify for our wellness credit!

  5. What's the difference by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

    between "The Gig Economy" and running your own business where you use a service to find customers?

    1. Re:What's the difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The first one that comes to mind is setting your own rate. In the gig economy, the one handing out the gigs has set what you get. As a freelancer you negotiate on the price and strike a deal if you can come to an agreement.

      The gig economy is just what we had before the unions and labor laws. Factory bosses, harbor masters etc would round up people interested in doing some work each morning and letting those they thought could do the job in. The next day the process repeated. No job security, no guarantees, etc. We turned away from this because it was bad. Some cry "socialism" but they know little. It is called a regulated market economy, and so far it is the best we have.

      Of course some have tried to rebrand this age old phenomenon as "gig economy" and telling us it is the future. But it is not, it is the past, and it should be buried.

    2. Re:What's the difference by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a requirement of the service. I've been in many countries where just about anyone with a car will stick a taxi sign in the window to pick up a few extra dollars here and there. You could easily be going through a service like Craigslist or a bulletin board to find rides, but it's not as convenient.

    3. Re:What's the difference by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1
      I mean having someone pre-negotiate a price and strike a deal is part of their service.

      Imagine a company that only found you rides for a %. Then a competitor comes along and offers you rides for $X where neither the driver nor the passenger has to negotiate anything. I think most people would go with the competing service.

    4. Re:What's the difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as a single comepeting service. In your example, there are two competing services.

    5. Re:What's the difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      between "The Gig Economy" and running your own business where you use a service to find customers?

      How many deadweight middlemen line up between you and the person who hired you to take their skim.

    6. Re:What's the difference by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Difference is when you do gig you do so because you are screwed. When you start a business you have lots of capital, customers, and other things that prepare you.

    7. Re:What's the difference by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You're not an employee making wealth for someone else if you run your own business.

  6. Contractors donâ(TM)t get benefits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Film at 11.

    Seriously, the âoegig economyâ is really just a trendy name for âoecontractorsâ. Nothing has changed.

  7. The point is to make an end run by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    around minimum wage and overtime laws. There's no other purpose. If you're a worker then you should be deeply opposed to this. Unless you're in a strong union they _will_ eventually come for you too. And the only strong union left I know of is the AMA. Lord knows us tech workers don't have anything of the sort.

    The only potential good that might come out of all this is America might wise up and vote single payer healthcare in. But right now the party in charge is completely opposed to it and I don't see them getting kicked out anytime soon. We're still arguing over assault rifles and abortion for Pete's sake (hurray for wedge issues!).

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:The point is to make an end run by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I ran my own business for years and did not make minimum wage. Where are the laws to protect private business owners.

    2. Re:The point is to make an end run by rfengr · · Score: 4, Informative

      It’s not “single payer”. It’s 48% of taxpayers paying for everyone. At least call it what it is.

    3. Re:The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both parties are opposed to single payer. Even Bernie's plan wasn't real single payer since it allowed for more than one payer which means that the rich could unfairly get better health care than normal people.

    4. Re:The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As they should. It's how mixed economies work. The privileged reimburse the non-privileged so that a decent society can be maintained.

    5. Re:The point is to make an end run by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Interesting

      around minimum wage and overtime laws. There's no other purpose. If you're a worker then you should be deeply opposed to this. Unless you're in a strong union they _will_ eventually come for you too. And the only strong union left I know of is the AMA. Lord knows us tech workers don't have anything of the sort.

      The only potential good that might come out of all this is America might wise up and vote single payer healthcare in. But right now the party in charge is completely opposed to it and I don't see them getting kicked out anytime soon. We're still arguing over assault rifles and abortion for Pete's sake (hurray for wedge issues!).

      It is more than this. Businesses LOVE temp work!

      They can fire them. Replace them. Use them as needed and throw them out to make room for coffee in the budget ( my brother's words who is a senior director in a fortune 100 company which I will not mention here).

      I know. I was just laid off yesterday. I am 41 and screwed in the contract trap. I was doing ok until I lost my job in February 2017. I took a contact job which I was promised was long term but asked around found out only 2/3rs are still employed after metrics within 6 months. I had bills to pay. So I took it. I was let go when my metrics didn't match.

      5 months later employers decided I was "unhirable". I took a temp job which I was promised was only 6 weeks. I took it as my savings were near empty. Now that is done and I had another only contract job but I was told I would always be hired and htis was a contract until December. I took it. ... 2nd day I was reprimanded when for giving advice to my boss when he asked for suggestions. I was told I was a contactor and a nobody to him! Do what I what I say and keep your mouth shut until you are hired. I immediately called the company I wanted to work for to see if the job was sitll open as I didn't trust my new employer. I do not want to hear about you etc. 4 weeks later the Gartner Group came in and mentioned a company called TATA India and how we waste money on I.T. when competitiors outsource to cut costs etc.

      Funny I was let go again due to organization structural changes. The permanent employees had to be protected but the share price was down and the CIO wanted to justify his job.

      The other employer I wanted is now hesitant as the client is wondering why I fucking can't hold onto a job!!

      This is BS! I never had such job hopping or bad experiences until I started contracting. Once you are in and your resume lists so many employers over years you are stuck as HR assumes you are incompetent. Once contracting things end all the damn time for any reason which reconfirms you are unhirable and this is not the true me by a long shot.

      I am telling you from experience it is because companies want to fire all their employees after each project ends. It has nothing to do with healthcare and I have been lied to so many times and another commenter mentioning being let go 1 day before benefits kick in is just the kicker.

      I saved projects twice and got let go for being too good at what I do as I am no longer needed.

    6. Re:The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The privileged reimburse the non-privileged

      What do you think "reimburse" means? The ones who have earned money give it to those who haven't, in exchange for--what, not killing them?

    7. Re:The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I already explained, in exchange for having a society worth living in.

    8. Re: The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A big issue is that power allows you to make money and money gives you power.

      Even with equal ability this leads to inequality. Look at Trump deeply incompetent but born rich so despite his best efforts still has money.

      Redistribution such as publically provided schools, police, roads and healthcare act to reduce this random unfairness and make potentially talented people less likely to be hobbled by poverty so they can be productive.

    9. Re:The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, it's cheaper to kill them.

    10. Re:The point is to make an end run by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The ones who have earned money give it to those who haven't, in exchange for--what, not killing them?

      You don't think that's a good deal? Your life isn't worth the little bit of taxes you pay?

      I'd say you're getting off cheap.

      See, here's the thing: There are a hell of a lot more people who are poor than those who are rich. In fact, our very economic system depends on there being a lot more poor people than rich people. It's by design. If there were no poor people, then how would rich people know they were rich?

      When economic inequality and systemic inequity reach a certain boundary condition, there is most certainly a danger to those at the very top. For centuries, the threat alone was enough to get the elite to periodically behave a little better and make things a little more equitable. The New Deal was the last time that happened. But now, the mechanisms of control are much more powerful and by dividing poor people by race, ethnicity, etc, the elite have been able to avoid danger.

      So history tells us it's now time to make our elite afraid again. That doesn't mean mass executions, but general strikes, worker organization, and social gospel did the job last time. A few well-placed high-profile executions could also do the trick, but it's worth trying the peaceful approach first.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:The point is to make an end run by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      "Bad lifestyle choices".

    12. Re:The point is to make an end run by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      It's not "single payer". Itâ(TM)s 48% of taxpayers paying for everyone. At least call it what it is.

      Sure: elitist bullshit. Pretending that the poor don't pay sales, property and most importantly payroll taxes (which are automatically deducted for health care) is engaging in sophistry.

    13. Re:The point is to make an end run by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The ones who have extracted money

      FTFY. Money accumulated != money earned.

      in exchange for--what, not killing them?

      That's why right wingers should stop bitching about taxes and social spending. You have your boot heel on the necks of the proles for too long, they'll decide to come for yours.

    14. Re:The point is to make an end run by stupidcomputers · · Score: 2

      "I saved projects twice and got let go for being too good at what I do as I am no longer needed." Phrase it differently. You have been an independent consultant for awhile now. You are so good at what you do, that you have been able to quickly solve multiple client problems quickly and efficiently. Steve

    15. Re:The point is to make an end run by nbritton · · Score: 2

      You're listing these wrong on your resume. Start your own business and work corp to corp, then you can list on your resume one continuous employer.

    16. Re:The point is to make an end run by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      "Where are the laws to protect private business owners."

      They are also designed to protect you in that you need to have customers with disposable income, or the firms that contract with you need to have them in order to invest.

    17. Re:The point is to make an end run by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      Maybe not minimum wage, but there are a lot of laws and an competent legal system to help small businesses arbitrate disputes, secure payment etc.

      I believe there should be more help for entrepreneurs in the shape of efficient socialized healthcare, so people can be entrepreneurial without putting their family's health on the line.

      Maybe there should be fewer laws supporting regulatory capture

      --
      Nullius in verba
    18. Re:The point is to make an end run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're quoting the number for the Federal Income Tax. US social services at the federal level are primarily paid for by the FICA tax which is another income tax at the federal level that nearly everyone pays, but it isn't the Federal Income Tax.

  8. Law of Supply and Demand by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Legal chain immigration brings about 1M legal immigrants into the country per year. That's on top of the illegals, most of whom compete with workers on the low end.

    It doesn't matter what you feel about immigration. The fact is that our immigration policies are nothing more than a safety valve on capital to ensure that the supply side is always high enough that the demand side never has to negotiate.

    Here's a simple plan that would cause real growth in average wages very quickly:

    1. Build the wall with the military's budget like Trump is threatening.
    2. Abolish chain immigration.
    3. Shred the green cards of all immigrants who arrived on chain migration in the last 20 years and order them to self-deport or face prison time.
    4. Tie corporate taxes to how much business and how many American citizens are employed by the business.
    5. Impose steep FICA excise taxes on outsourced labor. Make that offshore team in India so damn expensive in FICA costs that its not competitive.
    6. Shred NAFTA and impose a minimum 25% tariff on all goods made by American companies in Mexico for the American market.
    7. Pass a federal law that allows state and federal law enforcement to declare any business that relies on illegals to be a criminal enterprise as a whole entity and make its entire asset sheet liable for liquidation upon conviction.

    1. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      people in point (3) are likely to be citizens after 20 years. do you really want to deport citizens or revoke their citizenship?

    2. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by rfengr · · Score: 1

      He wrote “green cards”.

    3. Re: Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nuclear war will occur before the ruling class ever gives up the power of slave labor!

    4. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MOD UP!
      But it will never happen.

    5. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of those are pretty extreme measures. They likely would never happen.

      Walls can equally keep people in as well as out. Once the Mexican wall is complete, a Canadian one will be built next. When these walls are complete, it's harder to emigrate when things turn bad. Look at the postwar communist satellite countries for a good example.

      The root of the problem is the Federal government no longer answers to the people, but instead to those providing the dollars for re-election.

    6. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep drinking that Kool-aid

    7. Re: Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sure the american people would be delighted for a chance to get those amazing jobs the immigrants occupy currently. Fruit picking, construction, etc.

    8. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You stated well at 1 and 2, got shaky at 3, then went down the drain at 6 and 7.
      From informative to funny in 20 seconds.
      Either that, you think really shallowly.

    9. Re:Law of Supply and Demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget rapid growth in inflation. Do you remember the 70's?

  9. Equally low pay for contract workers by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    If you force the companies to treat contractors like employees, they'll pay them the same.

    The lack of restrictions hiring and firing and benefits is one of the reasons contractors get paid more than employees.

  10. Benefits is lost money by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

    If you're married then most of the time you only need one spouse to have the benefits. I get all of mine from my wife and the only thing I'm missing out on is life insurance and vision.

    Having a job with no benefits is a better financial decision compared to working as a W2 and not using any of the benefits

    1. Re:Benefits is lost money by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Yes because everyone wants to be a double-earner family.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  11. "demographics is destiny" by supernova87a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is a supply problem. The world is oversupplied with labor (people) for the amount of work demanded, thanks to productivity, automation, and the gradual end of the baby boomer growth era that fueled jobs and pay for everyone without a college degree.

    No amount of hand-wringing or puzzling over the edges of the gig economy, or living wages, the decline of manufacturing, or working conditions, are going to overcome the fundamental pressure of demographics.

    There are too many workers for companies to feel any pressure to raise wages, provide better benefits, or do anything that they don't need to, to keep sufficient workers on staff. (in general).

    Welcome to what it feels like when growth stalls -- everyone yells at everyone else thinking that someone caused / can fix the problem, when in fact it's mostly out of our hands. Don't worry, it'll work itself out -- in about 10-15 years... just wait a while.

    1. Re: "demographics is destiny" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AI, Automation, and 3rd-world labor pool is an inherent deflationary force in the market. Now, juxtaposition that with nation states printing fiat currency to pay for social programs and welfare. Yup, a slow moving train-wreck of insolvency. Enjoy

    2. Re:"demographics is destiny" by seven+of+five · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While there's truth in all that, the other truth is the very wealthy are getting better and better at "drinking your milkshake" -- siphoning off the financial rewards of the many to benefit the few. Tearing down the old style benefits like pensions, raises, etc, and with increasing frequency, creating new jobs that are far less stable, have fewer rights, pay less and offer traditional benefits to fewer workers.

    3. Re:"demographics is destiny" by seven+of+five · · Score: 3, Informative

      Though people are making less and have fewer benefits, the economy isn't losing money -- it's getting sucked to the top.

  12. Doesn't Scale [Re:The socialism drum beats on.] by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    you aren't doing something that's worth those kind of benefits. Sucks, but it's true. Improve your skills...

    The problem with using "just get better" as a justification for accepting growing inequality is that it does not scale. If everyone had PhD's, there wouldn't be enough room for the elite positions, and many PhD's would end up mopping floors and other grunt work.

    It's not a zero-sum game, but close enough that "just get better" isn't a complete solution.

    American workers rank among the top in the world in economic productivity, but the benefits of that hard work is not trickling down to most workers. I'm not proposing pure socialism, just enough of it to distribute the wealth better without significantly harming incentives. There's a better balance point than what we have now. Set the dial to 5 instead of 9 on the socialism-to-plutocracy scale.

    1. Re:Doesn't Scale [Re:The socialism drum beats on.] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say set the dial to 1 and rip it off.

    2. Re:Doesn't Scale [Re:The socialism drum beats on.] by thePsychologist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >The problem with using "just get better" as a justification for accepting growing inequality is that it does not scale. If everyone had PhD's, there wouldn't be enough room for the elite positions, and many PhD's would end up mopping floors and other grunt work.

      Sad thing is, the world is already getting to this point. I recently got my PhD, and in recent years I have seen (in multiple disciplines) many more people with PhDs than there are jobs (both industry and academic ones).

      What happens is that the 'gig economy' is edging its way into the academic and industrial world too, with many more "visiting" or "contract" positions than there ever was before.

      --
      "What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
    3. Re:Doesn't Scale [Re:The socialism drum beats on.] by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      in recent years I have seen (in multiple disciplines) many more people with PhDs than there are jobs

      If you get a Masters or higher, prepare for a "practical" alternative that is hopefully related. For example, if you get a PhD in electrical engineering, consider and prepare for being a regular blue-collar electrician as a back-up job/career.

  13. They have different bennefits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is completely looking past the different benefits that "gig" workers have. Mainly very flexible schedules. There are tradeoffs between contract work and a traditional job. Your choice which one works best for you. It's not the government's job to try to merge the best aspects of different options in to one. People need to take some responsibility, make decisions and do what's personally best for them based on the available options.

  14. So let me ask you this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are a perfectly healthy 25 year old. No medical conditions, everyone in your family dies in their late 90s, all is good.

    You're walking down the street. Someone hops the curb and hits you, then drives off.

    No cameras, no license plate, no description of the driver.

    You're rushed to hospital.

    You still want to be without health insurance, or is everyone just a leech for incidents like this?

    I also don't see you fighting against mandatory insurance for medical practitioners, attorneys, engineers or for automobiles. When are you going to start fighting against it?

    You keep using the word insurance. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

  15. It's the same laws by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    minimum wage laws stop the race to the bottom. They buoy up wages leading to consumers who can purchase your goods and services. Without them a handful of robber barons monopolize everything. Great if you end up one of the barons, but that's highly unlikely.

    tl;dr. No man is an island.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  16. Single payer means the government pays by rsilvergun · · Score: 0

    there is a single payer. It's the government. So I am calling it what it is. This is how insurance bloody damn well works. Everybody pays in and everybody gets taken care of when something goes wrong. The current for profit system is just missing the 'gets taken care of '.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  17. One more think I forgot to add by rsilvergun · · Score: 0

    that 52% pays more of their income as a percentage than the 48%. You're talking about the poor. And yes, the poor do pay taxes. Sales tax. Property tax (if they manage to own anything). Vehicle tax. State Income Tax. Meanwhile the 1% in that 48% receive the lion's share of civilization's benefits for doing basically no work. If you want to start bringing up parasites (which is implicit in your little crack about 48%) how about the Hilton Family? Or the Koch Bros? Or Bain f'n' capital? What exactly do they do that makes them worthy? If you're just in favor of winner take all, no morals capitalism that's fine to, but come right out and say it.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  18. Far worse in other countries by wyattstorch516 · · Score: 1

    Look at Japan or any number of European countries and see how many young people are working as contractors. They don't accrue retirement benefits like the previous generation and are screwed in the long run unless they are hired on at a company.

    When the price of taking people on as full time employees is too high then businesses will do everything possible to avoid. This means contractors and outsourcing wherever feasible.

  19. Benefits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Benefits" represent an enormous pool of wealth that the .001% have wasted no time in claiming for themselves. I mean, who can afford 10 multimillion dollar houses AND pay benefits and taxes?

  20. Duh! by jenningsthecat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Gig Economy Keeps Growing, But Worker Benefits Aren't

    Umm... wasn't that kind of the whole point of companies pushing for a gig economy? Does anybody really believe that this consequence wasn't at least foreseen, if not downright planned for, by the corporate sector? Corporations believe it to be in their best interests both to reduce the amount of money they pay their employees, and to decrease those employees' freedom and autonomy so as to make them more docile and compliant. A gig economy gives workers the illusion of increased freedom, even as it increases their servitude. I'm pretty sure that's the penultimate wet-dream of c-levels and board members everywhere. Of course, the ultimate wet-dream is to replace all those workers with machines.

    --
    'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
  21. Except that's not capitalism ... by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    ... it's corporate socialism. It is however sold to us as capitalism by the Ayn Rand fans. She'd be appaled.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  22. The age of cyberpunk... by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    ... I call it.
    It will pass sooner than we expect.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  23. Neoliberal excuses by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    There is more than enough work to give every person a job, automation or no automation. Fixing America's existing, crumbling infrastructure alone would create millions of jobs. Rolling out a high-speed rail network would create millions more. As would putting up windmills and solar panels all over the place, backed up by pumped storage if need be.

  24. Another great idea by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    subcombs to greed.

    --
    [($)]
  25. I'm Shocked! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Shocked I tell you. Disgusted and shocked at this new concept that the USA government doesn't provide workers in the country with legal protection. This is completely news to...

    okay I couldn't finish that sentence without laughing at the idea that people in the USA have workers rights. Quite frankly we normally use the USA as a punchline when discussing worker's rights. So congress's response is at least expected and consistent.

  26. Misleading statistic (aka fake news) by tomhath · · Score: 1

    the number of non-employer firms -- primarily incorporated freelancers and gig-economy workers -- has grown 2.6 percent every year since 1997. By contrast, payroll employment has grown by only 0.8 percent annually in that time.

    Do you see the deception in that quote? Number of "firms" compared to "payroll employment". What that tells me is that many small firms are being started (which is a good thing), but most start-ups have few workers (employee or not). Meanwhile, overall employment across the economy is growing at at healthy rate.

    And gig economy has nothing to do with unions or guilds; everything from electricians and plumbers to doctors and lawyers are part of the gig economy. If you have a marketable skill you'll do well.

  27. STFU libtards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just be happy you have a job. We can take that away from you too ANYTIME we like.

  28. If your main employment is in the "gig" economy... by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

    If your main employment is in the "gig" economy, then you're unemployed. This thing where we are all being forced into "gigs" instead of real jobs with real, actual benefits, is a new form of slavery. Row, number 41. No, fuck that shit.

    --
    Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  29. Typical Illiberal hand-wringing by mi · · Score: 1

    That means a growing number of people lack employer-sponsored benefits like paid leave, health care, and retirement assistance.

    Actually, no, it does not mean that at all. I've had my own corporation for over 10 years, and always carried health insurance as well as contributed to by own Keogh Plan.

    Doing business as your own corporation is enormously liberating, in fact — in a very real sense. You can change a clients, but you don't have to change your retirement plan arrangements, nor your insurer, for example.

    What really worries the Illiberals at Brookings is that people working for themselves do not hate "corporations" and are harder to control and less reliant on the benevolent and omniscient government bureaucrats (a.k.a. "the swamp"). Stalin forced peasants into collective farms for the same reasons — independent ones tend to obtain a few things to lose other than their "chains"...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Typical Illiberal hand-wringing by dywolf · · Score: 1

      oh shutup with this bullshit.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  30. Or by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can save money yourself