Tech Group Urges US To Recruit Allies To Take on China, Not Tariffs (venturebeat.com)

A trade group representing top technology companies on Monday told U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin that it opposes the Trump administration's focus on tariffs to try to change China's unfair trade practices. From a report: The Information Technology Industry Council said in a letter to Mnuchin that it supports the Trump administration's "Section 301" investigation into China's abuses of intellectual property, but instead of tariffs, it advocates a U.S.-led international coalition to put pressure on Beijing. "Our opposition to tariffs is pragmatic. Tariffs do not work," wrote ITIC President and CEO Dean Garfield. "Instead of tariffs, we strongly encourage the administration to build an international coalition that can challenge China at the World Trade Organization and beyond," Garfield added. "Numerous countries share the United States' concerns about China and its unfair trade practices. The United States is uniquely well-situated to lead that coalition."

Comments

Draw a Red Line in the sand

[tomhath]

we strongly encourage the administration to build an international coalition that can challenge China at the World Trade Organization and beyond

That's worked so well in other places.

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The World Trade Organization, and all of its trade treaties, are too corrupt to bother with. International terrorist organizations need to be utterly eliminated, whether they work in weapons or financials.

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[oh_my_080980980]

Actually no because China exports more to the United States then the United States exports to China. So Chains stands to lose more.

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Might be far better than what we're getting from the WTO and the UN. Especially now that ballistic missiles and nukes
  are obsolete- welcome to the Drone Wars.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Type44Q]

"China will be the winner because..."

...

/snicker

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Type44Q]

Especially now that ballistic missiles and nukes are obsolete

Surely you can make up more interesting stuff than that...

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Type44Q]

Leave basic arithmetic out of this; can't you see it's political? ;)

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

Then there's the little fact that China routinely ignores anything the WTO says anyway...

That is simply not the case!
First you seem confused about how the WTO settles disputes: https://www.wto.org/english/th...
Second, here is a list with the details of every dispute China has been involved with in the WTO: https://www.wto.org/english/th...

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[sit1963nz]

You mean like the socialist funding of the military the US has , where all tax payers are forced to fund it ?

or perhaps you mean like healthcare where it costs us less money ?

But feel free to let us know how well the US does in: Education, Healthcare, Law and order, Freedom, Freedom of the press, free speech , social mobility, corruption, Racism, infant mortality , life expectancy, Bankruptcies, Drug addiction, Capitalism, democracy, etc etc etc because from where I sit, the US is NOT great, not great at all. Oh sure, you tell yourselves you are the greatest, but no one actually bothers to look, because its not a pretty picture. Also the USA did NOT win WWII, Russia did far more, so no we would not be speaking Japanese or German. The nice thing about my "worthless little country" is we are willing to take the best from all systems and make it work for us the voters. This is why the likes of Peter Theil have bought property here for when the US sinks into the next civil war.

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Koby77]

NO, we have interest in this trade war. While Trump has been tearing up treaties the rest of the world has been signing them.

Spoken like a true elitist. While you have been signing them, your populace has been growing increasingly discontent at having their standard of living thrown away for the benefit of the international financiers. Prepare for more Brexits, Trumps, and M5S's.

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[sit1963nz]

Well we are unhappy about US corporations doing the dutch sandwich tax shuffle and paying in effect zero taxes on their profits.

We are also unhappy about the huge protections the US has for its agriculture sector.

We went through this trauma 20-30 years ago and have more Market freedom than the USA.

and over all, we are a much happier people than the USA.

This trader is all about the USA unwilling to recognise it is only 4% of the worlds population and that China will soon (if not already) over take the USA as the biggest economy and the US can no longer throw its weight around.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Marxist Hacker 42]

A cloud of drones provides a shield. Computers and Satellites are fast enough to predict the target of any ballistic missile launch within nanoseconds.

They're an outdated and obsolete technology.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Falconnan]

I really hope you're joking.

Ballistic missiles are rarely purely ballistic, or they would be easy to both predict and shoot down. The hard part is relative velocity, in the 15-20,000 mph range. It really is rather like trying to shoot down a bullet with another bullet, except it's actually WAY harder. Now that bullet can split into multiple warheads, most of which have at least minimal course correction abilities. Add radar stealth coatings, decoy warheads, ECM technologies, etc., it rapidly becomes clear that the main reasons not to use them are strategic and (one hopes) humanitarian. They're not easy to shoot down, even with modern tech. Now, as laser weapons get better, that becomes more of an option this method gets worse, but there are a number of apparent development and philosophy errors in current anti-ballistic technologies.

Re:Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Falconnan]

Yeah, the stronger dollar is actually a problem for US domestic production. Exports rise and imports decline when the dollar weakens a bit. Everyone screams at how they want a strong dollar, but this is actually rather short sighted. Our national interest is best served by a weaker (within reason) dollar. It also makes it relatively cheaper to pay down our national debt, as most of it is valued in, wait for it: US dollars.

Our most valuable national asset, both strategically and economically, is the fact that the US Dollar continues to be the world's reserve currency. If this ever changes, we're in a lot of trouble.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Marxist Hacker 42]

No, that's the old way.

The new way is that you send up explosive drone clouds over the target, on every potential trajectory. INCLUDING the decoy warheads. Millions of them. It's more like very quickly building a brick wall for the bullets to hit.

Good luck using stealth to mask the heat of the launch.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Falconnan]

While there are a few holes in that, that is arguably a good approach. However, that technology is not ready for prime time just yet, not the least of which is that such drone clouds would need to be in space. To remain over the target would be energy intensive. Assuming you don't launch prior to detecting a missile launch, you'd need to track against post-launch course changes. So each potential target has a percentage chance of being an actual target. Since ICBMs never go beyond low orbit altitude, geostationary isn't a valid option. In essence, they're not as obsolete as one might expect. There are countermeasures, but they are far from absolute.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Post launch course changes are limited for ballistic missiles. And yes, you aren't going to escape with no damage, but the missile does not have to be intercepted "in space" for a drone cloud to work; it can be intercepted mere tens of miles from the target.

Unlike missiles- a drone cloud that is launched and is not used as a shield can be landed, refueled or recharged, and used again.

You don't even need to protect everything- a drone cloud based in each city, or even launched from naval vessels, will do. Just protect the high value stuff- the stuff that a small country like North Korea is going to try to attack.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Falconnan]

From that perspective I can see it. However, there is the question of having large enough ordinance to cause sufficient damage to prevent the secondary nuclear charge from detonating. Without knowing the outer shell structure of the warheads, that's not the easiest thing.

Re: Draw a Red Line in the sand

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually you have two options there: 5.5 lbs of C4, per drone, with enough drones launched with sufficient AI so that you get multiple hits once the first drone connects. Or alternatively, a lot of little drones, each armed with thermite suspended in a gasoline gel, which explode at several thousand degrees on impact and melt through just about any casing by adding to the heat of re-entry pushing the warhead past re-entry design limits.

Also, we're not talking Tsar Bomba sized warheads on an ICBM either; at worst, we're talking one gigaton warheads. That means if you are able to intercept > 62 miles from the target, usually even as close as 40 miles from the target, you'll end up with less damage than you'd get from a class 3 hurricane.

Get it at 40 miles straight up, and the ozone layer will even absorb most of the radiation (that is, after all, what it does).

If they don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

then why does China have tariffs on the US? And why was the slashdot hivemind so pro-tariff a couple of years ago?

Re:If they don't work

[Memnos]

At what?

Re:If they don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

Tariffs have turned China from a third world nation into a quasi-first world nation. Free trade has turned the US from a first world nation into a quasi-third world nation. Gee, maybe there's a relationship?

Re:If they don't work

[pastafazou]

You THINK free trade has been great for America. But free trade with China has only been free in one direction. It SEEMED to be working, but in reality, the US has been racking up the debts nationally, regionally, and personally. If not for debt spending, the US economy would be stagnant or shrinking.

Re:If they don't work

[yuriklastalov]

Sure, we may have hamstrung our country and doomed it to oblivion, but hey, at least we got cheap consumer goods out of the deal!

Economics in the current year people. The negative effects of policy don't matter so long as they make consumer goods cheaper because as we all know cheap consumer goods will keep the everyone happy forever and it's inconceivable that our Utopian materialist philosophies could possibly be wrong in any way let alone leading to certain doom!

TL;DR; Modern Neoliberal Economics: The only thing that matters is increasing GDP. All other concerns are secondary at best, and in all likelihood ignored entirely on the grounds that reality interferes in a problematic way with ideology.

Re: If they don't work

[Reverend Green]

#dunce

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[110010001000]

So who is implementing tariffs? Is it government or companies? Please enlighten us.

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

And in that lies the main problem with international trade as presently constituted: it is all about the specific individual good and never about the common good.

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[sexconker]

China has no unfair trade practices.
Actually trade is not done between nations, but between companies.

Do you wake up every day and actively look for opportunities to be dumber than you were the day before?

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[losfromla]

I think that it is already dumb enough and now just looks for opportunities to demonstrate already achieved dumbness.

Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[losfromla]

I absolutely loathe drumPft, everything about him, from his absurd "hairstyle" to his voice, diction, "policies", etc.

However, I favor sanctions. We should sanction smartly though to protect our high tech manufacturing industries. So we could be a powerhouse like Germany, which protects its industries. China protects its acquisition of technology, why shouldn't we also work to help our industries?

This "Tech Group" sounds like they favor inaction and ineffective whining because, apparently, they have more to gain by importing Chinese goods than by helping strengthen the American middle class. Damned blood-sucking corporatist vampires.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[Anonymous Coward]

"I hate absolutely everything about the guy, but I like what he is doing". Overheard on a bus last weekend.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

I absolutely loathe drumPft, everything about him, from his absurd "hairstyle" to his voice, diction, "policies", etc.

However, I favor sanctions. We should sanction smartly though to protect our high tech manufacturing industries. So we could be a powerhouse like Germany, which protects its industries. China protects its acquisition of technology, why shouldn't we also work to help our industries?

This "Tech Group" sounds like they favor inaction and ineffective whining because, apparently, they have more to gain by importing Chinese goods than by helping strengthen the American middle class. Damned blood-sucking corporatist vampires.

Please explain what you mean by this? Germany is a part of the EU so they have no sanctions against China.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[losfromla]

They protect their industries by keeping them in-country. This is done because all corporations have an advisory board made up of rank-and-file employees, who clearly have a vested interest in the company remaining and zero in it leaving. I wasn't trying to imply they had sanctions on China, sorry if it read that way.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

But in this case, the horses have already left the barn. Closing the door now will do nothing to help the middle class.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

They protect their industries by keeping them in-country. This is done because all corporations have an advisory board made up of rank-and-file employees, who clearly have a vested interest in the company remaining and zero in it leaving. I wasn't trying to imply they had sanctions on China, sorry if it read that way.

Although I believe that works councils are a good idea your claim seem a bit generous as they are advisory boards only and not unique to Germany. Other countries have a legal right to union representation in the governing board, with the same rights as other board members (limited to a minority of the total board obviously). There are also European Works Councils for companies with employees in more than one EU country.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[Memnos]

Please never say that again. "You know who" might hear it.

Re: Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[Type44Q]

We should just keep pissing away our wealth in the way of trade imbalances because it's too late to do anything about it.

Except it clearly isn't, or the Chinese wouldn't be trying so hard to convince us otherwise.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[HornWumpus]

The US more or less ignores Africa because our industry got tired of losing their money to kleptocrats. The Chinese will learn too.

Re: Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[q_e_t]

The USA used to value manufacturing and quality very highly. Around 1900 the UK and Germany held the reputation for excellence, but by 1930, the USA was also seen in this light. By 1970 the reputation of the UK seemed to have been tarnished in the mass automotive industry, although it seems to have recovered.

Re: Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[q_e_t]

Another example might be Japan, which even up to 1970 was seen to have a poor reputation for quality, but was transformed by the mid 1980s, with Korea roughly a decade behind. I'd expect China is going through the same process. It suggests that a nation can turn itself around in terms of manufacturing and engineering, which means the USA could be more of a manufacturing and engineering powerhouse, but it might take a generation to achieve it.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[AmiMoJo]

China is building a lot of infrastructure in Africa. It's working very well for them.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[losfromla]

I get the feeling that somewhere in the madness of your post, there is something coherent. Could you re-post with some examples of what you are talking about, right now it's too abstract to comprehend. If you respond by insulting my intelligence, you won't make any progress, as I'm just asking for clarification.

Also, who is co-opting Marxist sloganeering and what institutions are on the side of the people to help oppose these AstroTurfers?

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[losfromla]

I don't know about other countries' particular configurations, I know that in Germany those boards are in-place as per their Constitution. A Constitution that was put in place and dictated primarily by American and Russian generals after defeating the Germans in WW2. I don't recall if these boards are made up of Union members, I know that at a bank, the gardener can be part of the board. Advisory boards are not ignored if that is what you are implying by saying I am being a bit generous. What I get from it all is that the boards give their corporations what American corporations lack: a soul. Thus their corporations are not a psychopathic beings hell-bent on maximizing profits whatever the cost.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[losfromla]

You do realize that Europeans came and extracted the wealth of these nations while destroying their society and way of life? The only injustice is that these extractors weren't impaled and burned on a pyre as they arrived. I cannot believe that in this day-and-age anyone with two or more working brain cells can even jokingly put forth that the Europeans got a raw deal, FFS!

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[AmiMoJo]

This started 20 years ago, and hasn't happened yet. Is it possible that we were imperialists and this is different?

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[HornWumpus]

No.

As the poster notes, so long as the Europeans held the governments they did OK at resource extraction. He's wrong there was any wealth there to begin with. Dirt becomes ore when you have the technology.

But since then, it's a 100% money pit. Investment/burn cycles run decades.

De Beers group is about the only one left making money, because they just pay off the dictators. Even that's ending. They were just extracting sunk costs for a century or so.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[HornWumpus]

And yet, the only nation in Africa that isn't a complete shithole is the one where Europeans ruled the longest.

Even there, the current rulers can't help themselves.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[losfromla]

Could it be that they ended up shitholes because their resources were extracted with all benefits going to those who stole the land and resources, leaving the natural population impoverished financially and intellectually? They're coming back and feel that they aren't shitholes but it does take a while to dig out when you have been oppressed and impoverished for hundreds of years. Fuck all the European vermin that went and destroyed literally every society and land that they came upon.

Re:Yeah, whinning is more likely to work

[The Evil Atheist]

You think the Chinese just gifts money without doing some due diligence?

LMOL

[oh_my_080980980]

Yeah they've been saying the same thing about China's Currency Policy. The fact is, there's nothing anyone can do to force China to stop manipulating their currency. Same with trade practices. Other than go to the WTO if China is in violation of a trade agreement and then good luck.

Tariffs do work, ask Japan.

Re:LMOL

[angel'o'sphere]

China is not manipulating its currency, how exactly would they that anyway?
Their currency fixed bound to the US$ since ages.

Re:LMOL

[bongey]

Angel you are Chinese, if you are a Chinese citizen you aren't even allowed to speak out against your country. For all we know you are propaganda troll working for the Chinese government. Here you are posting on a chinese site https://ask.helplib.com/java/p... https://whois.icann.org/en/Loo... . I think the Chinese people are smart, hard working people but the Chinese government has been for some time manipulating trade and currency to benefit their own country that has gone too far.

Re:WTO has NEVER ruled in favor of US

[SirSlud]

The bus was late this morning! It's a terrorist bus! Oh no, it's raining! These are terrorist clouds! Etc ..

Good results so far.

[Gravis Zero]

Should we be working with our allies to combat unfair trading practices? Of course!
Should we do so in a calm and collected manner? Of course!
Was the president warned about retaliation a thousand times before the first tariff? Of course!
Does he think he's smarter than everyone else and nothing can dissuade him from taking the more perilous actions? Of course!

This is the bed people have made, it's time to sleep in it.

Re:Good results so far.

[bluefoxlucid]

Imports reduce the amount of American labor spent on obtaining a thing (i.e. you work 3 hours for American-made pants, 1.86 hours for the same exact quality of Chinese pants, and more than 3 hours for American-made pants at a higher quality, assuming the American manufacturing industry has equivalent or better experience and expertise in manufacturing compared to China). That reduces American poverty and frees up American labor to do things like build great new technology industries. If the cost differential is more than trivial, it net-creates American jobs because moving and selling all those goods also requires labor.

Exports utilize American labor to draw in monetary benefits: an excess American labor force can be built, unsustainable in the country (no welfare will hold it up; without the export market, they will starve). That allows more tax revenue and a bigger GDP, as well as potentially greater GDP-per-capita; although without achieving a bigger GNI-per-capita, you're actually not increasing the capacity to supply government services (you've got more people for whom to serve). You can build bigger militaries, though. If your buyers decide the next nation over does it better, they can pull the plug on your economy and cause an economic collapse.

Both of these are encouraged by the UN: since both hold up a nation's capacity to sustain an economy and wage war, a third world war becomes difficult due to its tendency to remove the ability of warring nations to conduct a war.

What exactly is an unfair trading practice?

Re:Good results so far.

[HornWumpus]

The first tariff was decades ago. Imposed by China.

China's got shit to retaliate with. See the trade balance. They can't put in new tariffs, because they've had them all along. Sure, they tariff pork, which is 1% of the value of China's exports. That's just not going to work for them.

Also: China's banking system continues to be a mess. US treasuries are the quality part of China's banking reserves. Think about that...they _can't_ say no to a central committee members child. Imaging what those loan portfolios really look like.

Their economy is brittle. When it crashes, China will have a revolution. They've had 30 years with everything their way, haven't been able to get out of the 'producing junk ghetto'. Japan owned the quality Camera market by this stage of their development and was well along building a strong export car industry.

Re:Good results so far.

[DNS-and-BIND]

The US economy is much less exposed to exports. China is very much exposed. We simply don't have much to lose. China will lose, bigtime. Retaliation hurts us much less than Trump's tariffs hurt China. That's what this is, a big game of chicken to see who will hurt the most. It ain't gonna be America. In fact, by tariffing soybeans, China may well have shot itself in the foot. China is a huge importer of American soybeans. The Chinese people don't take that kind of price increase well.

Re:Good results so far.

[sit1963nz]

The rest of the world is going to continue to trade with China.
While Trump has been ripping up trade agreements, China has been making them.
While Trump has been pissing people off, China has been talking nicely.
Chinas middle class is growing, the US is stagnant, the US could be locked out of the biggest growth market there is
China has rare earth materials the US needs, I guess China can stop selling it to the US to balance trade...

So while the USA places tariffs on things like Aluminium which will only serve to increase the prices of US exports and make the US even less competitive China has been strengthening trade ties with everyone else.

The is no rule/law or anything else that says the US must win, nor that it must be the leader . The US is only 4% of the worlds population.

Re:Good results so far.

[Koby77]

Imports reduce the amount of American labor spent on obtaining a thing (i.e. you work 3 hours for American-made pants, 1.86 hours for the same exact quality of Chinese pants, and more than 3 hours for American-made pants at a higher quality, assuming the American manufacturing industry has equivalent or better experience and expertise in manufacturing compared to China). That reduces American poverty and frees up American labor to do things like build great new technology industries. If the cost differential is more than trivial, it net-creates American jobs because moving and selling all those goods also requires labor.

But then your $25/hr factory job gets shipped overseas and you can only get a $8/hr job as a bartender, and so your standard of living got worse. And then the retail stores don't actually bother to reduce prices at all; only electronics products have gone down in price (imo due to technological advancement). The price on most other items, from durable goods, cars, healthcare, education, childcare, and housing have skyrocketed in recent years while U.S. median wages actually decreased. Most of the Americans to benefit from trade have been those close to the financier side of the trade equation, and not from manufacturing.

You are attempting to argue on principals of comparative and absolute advantage. These theories only explain that more goods and services might be produced. But they DO NOT EXPLAIN TO WHERE THEY ARE DISTRIBUTED. Which is the essential definition of economics: the DISTRIBUTION of scarce goods and services. The fact that you have created more stuff, and given it away to a bunch of overseas workers and wealthy bankers is of no comfort to the American workers and unions that saw their standard of living gutted in recent decades.

Re:Good results so far.

[DNS-and-BIND]

China already doesn't buy much from America. America doesn't export much. If the world wants to deal with China, they're welcome to it. The Chinese are cheating thieves. Honestly I hope China overtakes America and becomes "leader". Then maybe everyone will look back at the good old days when America ran things, and say, "Come back!"

And America will say, "No."

Re:Good results so far.

[bluefoxlucid]

then your $25/hr factory job gets shipped overseas and you can only get a $8/hr job as a bartender

Depends, really. We create more high- and low-paying jobs over time.

You are attempting to argue on principals of comparative and absolute advantage. These theories only explain that more goods and services might be produced. But they DO NOT EXPLAIN TO WHERE THEY ARE DISTRIBUTED.

So, pants cost 1.83 hours of minimum-wage labor if made in China and bought by Americans. They cost 3.0 hours of minimum-wage labor if made in America and bought by Americans. That's your answer of to where they are distributed.

You also have to realize that trade and technology are roughly the same, in this sense: they both reduce the (local) jobs required to produce a thing, and leave your economy to adjust the labor force by spending the increased consumer buying power elsewhere. When the differential between the price of goods in trade is sufficiently-large (for US vs. China goods, this can be the difference between $25 pants and $14 pants, based on $10/hr factory labor vs $3.20/hr), you get more jobs in your economy in total by trade for the cheap ones. Paying the factory workers more only diminishes the number of factory jobs created while (by) also making the poor even poorer, diminishing the number of jobs in shipping, retailing, and other supporting infrastructure.

The end-run around someone else being in a better position to produce--which may not be just wages, but also that the climate is better for fiber growth, the fiber farms are right there, thus there's less labor in shipping things around; or it may be that they're better developed for this and so can just do it with less effort--and thus providing a much-cheaper product isn't to block them off and pay your factory workers a lot; it's to make high-paying tech jobs (or other jobs) and shift your industry. Then the poor don't get any poorer (they get wealthier) and your job economy stays healthy, while the wage distribution stays similar or even improves.

Do we want America to be a nation of steel mills and farmers, or a nation of doctors and space shuttle engineers? Donkey-pulled carts or flying cars?

Yes China engages in unfair trade practices

[sjbe]

China has no unfair trade practices.

You mean except for currency manipulation, import/export restrictions, forex controls, foreign ownership restrictions, government subsidies, government ownership of businesses, and a fistful of other shady practices?

While I wouldn't claim the US is pure as snow either let's not pretend that China the nation state doesn't act on behalf of Chinese companies.

Actually trade is not done between nations, but between companies.

A) Governments purchase goods too and a lot of them, both foreign and domestic. B) Nation states are HEAVILY involved in international trade. If you think otherwise you don't understand the topic adequately.

Re:Yes China engages in unfair trade practices

[angel'o'sphere]

Bad in history?
Every asian country has restrictions regarding what forreigners can own.
Up to you read up and comprehend why that is so.

Regarding ownership of businesses ... are you really that dumb? For every business that is state owned I show you one that is orivate owned.

China is not manipulating its currency, it is bound to the US dollar since decades.

I understand the topic very well. The US want to tax europeand chinese steel, because that tax will magically let pop up steel plants in the USA ...
Then in return China will tax something that hurts the USA ...
Result: simple people in the US will pay more for goods from China, simple people in China will pay more for goods from USA. The winners: the US and Chinese government, by earning a little bit in tariffs that can be considered peanuts in the grand scheme.

Re:Yes China engages in unfair trade practices

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

The Chinese currency is bound to a basket of currencies, not the usd specifically.

As there are Chinese forex controls there is an artificial shortage so the renminbi is probably overvalued rather than undervalued.

Chinese steel imports are 3.35% of total US steel imports by value http://www.politifact.com/trut...

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[HornWumpus]

As it should.

Whenever someone is put in charge of 'the greater good' they define it as their personal good.

Never trust anybody who says: 'We're all in this together'. No we're not! People that say that never mean they are taking on your problems, they mean their problems are going to land on you and your resources belong to them. Fuck them!

Ummm how about both?

[DeplorableCodeMonkey]

No one in that region other than North Korea is cool with China. For all of the white progressive derping about "American imperialism," it's rather telling ain't it that even Vietnam is seeking to build a real relationship with us. Let that sink in--a country whose northern half we treated about on par with how the Soviets treated Afghanistan--prefers us to China.

China is colonizing Africa. Look it up if you don't believe me. There are quite a few million Chinese who have moved there in the last few decades and a lot are moving there every year.

The world is going to bitterly regret not standing up to China and aggressively asserting its interests against them.

Re:Ummm how about both?

[liquid_schwartz]

The world is going to bitterly regret not standing up to China and aggressively asserting its interests against them.

So true. That's why I often post about the US looking after its own interests and letting the world go to hell. No reason to waste blood and treasure when it's not appreciated. Secure the borders and focus on getting our house back in order. The US wasn't perfect by any means, but it could have been much worse. China is going to prove just how true that statement is.

Re:Ummm how about both?

[angel'o'sphere]

No one prevents Europeand or americans to move to Africa.

Sorry, but to say it pluntly: the time that countries have to react on other countries development, even thinking that they need to react, are over. Over long ago. Half the communist regimes on the world are/were there because the US supported the dictors there before some 'revolution' killed them. That the world is slowly dragging itself out of the shithole the USA put us in is a good thing.
You had 50 years, actually 70 years, chance to depose african dictators, help in setting up elections etc.
Now when China comes, "doing the right thing", you again want to fight it?
For what? To keep the slaves on their knees? And how do you want to achive it? China has nukes, which means the African 'colonies' have nukes, too.
Good luck with your outdated imperialism.

Re:Ummm how about both?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Yea that turned out really well in the early 1940s.

Re:Ummm how about both?

[cascadingstylesheet]

"pluntly"?

Re:Ummm how about both?

[nwaack]

Actually, it did...until the Japs decided to bomb us. Then we rubbed their noses in their own crap. So STFU.

Re:Ummm how about both?

[whodat54321]

Vietnam is building a relationship based on the same failed hyper-capitalism that globalists are getting hammered for. Wonder where PayLess shoes gets their entire inventory from? Along with most of the lower priced junk at Wallyworld? Vietnam has been where China farms out stuff even China does not want to do. Same slave labor practices, but less known than it's neighbor. As for Africa, China is already learning the hard way that tribalism and regional conflict based on religion is making a mess out of their efforts. Even in North Korea, there is a famous ghost city and bridge to nowhere to North Korea's side that China built, but nobody uses. For the Chinese government, it's more about the centralized planning building things that aren't needed, while in Africa, they are needed but will not pay the bribes to make it happen for anyone but the political elite. All for show, but no significant changes.

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[angel'o'sphere]

As you likely know: governments.

Tariffs sure work for China

[DNS-and-BIND]

For something that doesn't work, China sure has made good use of them to build the #2 economy in the world. I think it's more like, "they don't maximize GDP but certainly do sacrifice a small part of it to give a better life to our people." To say they don't work is to ignore the big picture in favor of a single metric - GDP growth - by which all is measured.

Let's make everything overseas!

[Okian Warrior]

Imports reduce the amount of American labor spent on obtaining a thing (i.e. you work 3 hours for American-made pants, 1.86 hours for the same exact quality of Chinese pants, and more than 3 hours for American-made pants at a higher quality, assuming the American manufacturing industry has equivalent or better experience and expertise in manufacturing compared to China). That reduces American poverty and frees up American labor to do things like build great new technology industries.

Wow, what an insightful comment!

If we make everything overseas, it would eliminate US poverty altogether!

Re:Let's make everything overseas!

[bluefoxlucid]

If we make everything overseas, it would eliminate US poverty altogether!

We practically do. We make computer chip designs here, as well as software, medicine, and of course infrastructure. We provide services here. We do technology research and engineering here. Most of the stuff we've ever made is now acquired from overseas, except farming.

Speaking of farming...

We used to employ 90% of the workers (at 80-100 hour work weeks) as farmers--down to age 13 (or below). We used to put kids in factories for these long hours, too. Child labor. Remember that?

Through a long series of technological improvements, the amount of labor expended on the farm has fallen to below 2%. About 30% of our industry is involved in farm support, but not 30% of our industry's output: shipping, chemical, power, mining, and so forth provide a great deal of production, and farming uses something of all of them in some major way.

We didn't ship those jobs anywhere; we just started leveraging more technology.

Technology does not mean you move from 40 hours of human labor to 10 hours of labor doing that work and 30 hours doing the work to make the machines. Technology means you move from 40 hours of human labor doing the work at hand to 10 hours of labor in total designing and building the new tools, shipping them, training to use them, and operating them to achieve the same output.

Arbitration of labor efficiency by trade is not sustainable: the amount of labor invested on the other end eventually exceeds labor available. Guess how we expand the labor available on each end of the trade pipe and thus get wealthier.

Re:WTO has NEVER ruled in favor of US

[gnick]

Marxist Hacker 42 was perfectly happy until you stepped in with your terrorist comment.

Congratulations on recovering from that coma.

[jeff4747]

we strongly encourage the administration to build an international coalition

Has the author of this memo been in a coma for the last two years?

Re:WTO has NEVER ruled in favor of US

[Memnos]

You criticized him. You terrorist.

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[Memnos]

And when the companies really have no choice but to do what a nation's government tells them to do, what does that imply?

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[bongey]

Chinese troll says China is doing nothing wrong. Are you even allowed to speak out against your own country? The answer is no, unless you want to go jail . Here you are posting on chinese help forums. https://ask.helplib.com/java/p... on a Chinese site https://whois.icann.org/en/Loo... .

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[Memnos]

It's actually possible for there to be no winners, and we'll probably get to see that.

Get the Pacific countries onboard!

[eparker05]

If only there was some way we could create some sort of "Cross Pacific Collaboration"; a coordinated block of pacific countries with free trade agreements and aligned tariff rules. That would be an amazing way to counter China. Too bad nothing like that was ever negotiated...

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Type44Q]

Communism is all well and good when it's voluntary and at a local level (i.e. neighbors digging a shared well). History shows, however, that if it requires the pointing of a gun to implement it, there's nothing fucking communal about it at all; it just becomes another form of feudalism, albeit with Kommissars instead of Lords and Barons.

And your silly notion of "The Collective" doesn't fucking exist: human beings -are individuals.

China already losing, soybeans bought by Europe.

[bongey]

China add tariffs to US soybeans has done nothing but harm China. Europe bought up all beans China would have been buying. LOL https://www.reuters.com/articl...

Misunderstood

[VeryFluffyBunny]

I think that this whole tariff circus misunderstands the economic relationship between the US and China. US corporations have exported much of their manufacturing to China, which offers poorer working conditions, more human rights violations, a sufficiently skilled workforce, and good transport infrastructure. These conditions help to drive down the cost of manufacturing and ensure a robust and reliable supply chain for the US market.

This arrangement is of enormous benefit and profit to US corporations. Unfortunately, while the cost of production has gone down, so has the income of most US households, pushed down by higher rates of unemployment, in real terms, decreased salaries, and degraded jobs (e.g. more service jobs). In other words, trade between the US and China makes the rich richer and the poor poorer in both countries.

Tariffs don't do anything to address these issues because it's trivial to get around tariffs, e.g. the Chinese can use intermediaries to get their goods into the US.

Free Trade

[DMJC]

All of this was predicted in the early 90s when trade started to be liberalised. Free Trade doesn't work unless the countries trading are of equal or near equal standards of living. Otherwise the richer countries are outsourcing their wealth/jobs to poorer countries in exchange for more lax environmental/worker protections. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[sit1963nz]

http://blog.peerform.com/top-t...

"human beings -are individuals." which is most people live in cities, to take advantage of the things that communal living gives.

Re: Alternative

[Archfeld]

It is and has been happening to the west for sometime. State sponsored hacker groups originating from government owned facilities in China, Russia, Iran and Syria have been hacking at US installations and infrastructure for years now. It won't start a world war it will just up the ante in the ongoing cyber war that has taken the place of the cold war. Foreign entities need to know that the west is willing and able to defend itself in the cyber world as well as the 'real' world.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Another idiot that doesn't understand what socialism is. Denmark isn't socialist. Their PM came out and said it after Bernie Sanders claimed they were. Socialism is government control of the means of production.

Re:China already losing, soybeans bought by Europe

[The Evil Atheist]

Yeah, because win/loss is determined by one single factor...

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

And it can only be voluntary and at a local level with significant trade barriers protecting the local level.

Feudalism is the point- the desired end result.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Type44Q]

Forgetting and/or redefining simple words is how we become illiterate and ignorant. This is what happened when the Roman Empire collapsed, most of European society festered in abject stupidity, and Latin devolved into the various Continental "Romance Languages" that we know today. And it's happening again, thanks in part - to ignorant twits like you.

Only this time it's happening at a far faster rate.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Type44Q]

No. Centralizing everything (whether in the name of "capitalism" or "communism") with the power in the hands of fewer and fewer people who are able to monetize every fucking aspect of our lives ...is how we return to feudalism.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Type44Q]

I fumbled the italics... there was actually some sense to it...

Re:WTO has NEVER ruled in favor of US

[Falconnan]

I love demonstrably false statements. Here's a tip: Before asserting an absolute negative statement, try to make it one that cannot be immediately disproven by a 6-word Google search and the ability to read the results.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Much better to *decentralize* to the point that you can punch the commisar or the king in the nose.

Re:China already losing, soybeans bought by Europe

[bongey]

From 2015-2016 (Jan-Apr 1 each year), the total exports of soybeans went down by 4 million. It's down 4 million again from 2017 to 2018, so there is no known effect showing that that tariffs have done anything to effect exports. https://apps.fas.usda.gov/esrq...
Also the pork tariffs are a joke because one of the largest pork exporters is a Chinese company.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[sit1963nz]

Or in the case of New Zealand, throw a dildo into the face of a government politician.

http://www.konbini.com/en/ente...
Bugger throwing shoes, nothing says "Fuck off" like a sex toy to the face.

Re:soory, but tariffs are needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you also going to pretend the euro was forced down too?

Currencies fluctuate all the time depending on the conditions in the economies. This is basic stuff.
Where is this high Chinese inflation over the last 5 years? Looks like the opposite of what you claim.

You are completely clueless about everything.

China was dumping U.S. Treasuries in 2016 so that it could buy its own currency -- the yuan -- to counter downward pressure caused by a huge outflow of cash from its economy.

To be this wrong about everything you say, you can only be trolling. Even anti-China idiots have a grain of truth they try to hold on to, but not you windtroll.

Re: What is an unfair trade practice?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I like it. Too bad in most countries, you'll never get that close to a politician without facing down a goon with an uzi.

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[angel'o'sphere]

I only can read about 200 Chinese "characters" no idea why you sent those links ...

Re:What is an unfair trade practice?

[angel'o'sphere]

Any examples for that?

Probably they are not companies then, but parts of the state?