Trump Orders Audit of Postal Service After Suggesting Amazon Is To Blame For Their Troubles (politico.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Politico: President Donald Trump ordered the U.S. Postal Service to undergo an audit Thursday evening, a move that comes after president's repeated claims that Amazon is fleecing the USPS through alleged unfair business practices. "The USPS is on an unsustainable financial path and must be restructured to prevent a taxpayer-funded bailout," reads the executive order Trump issued shortly before 9 p.m. While not explicitly mentioned in the order, the president has hammered e-commerce giant Amazon in recent weeks and alleged that the company and its CEO Jeff Bezos are driving the USPS into the ground. "I am right about Amazon costing the United States Post Office massive amounts of money for being their Delivery Boy," Trump wrote on Twitter on April 3. "Amazon should pay these costs (plus) and not have them bourne by the American Taxpayer." According to the executive order, a task force comprise of top officials, including Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, who would chair the group, will lead the investigation into the USPS' finances and will be required to issue recommendations and a final report no later than early August.

Comments

Pension

[Gilgaron]

Hasn't it already been pretty well established that the USPS is doing just fine, but the accounting practices congress forces them to use for their pension funding make it look bad on paper?

Re:Pension

[GLMDesigns]

No. I've read articles pointing that the picture is much worse.

Does the USPS pay real estate tax? No.
Does the USPS pay market rent for the property used? No.
Does the USPS pay the water and sewage?
Does the USPS pay the tax on their electricity. (Take a look at the tax on your electric bill.)

Re:Pension

[rgmoore]

Yes, it has been established the USPS's biggest problem is their need to pre-fund all their pensions for the next 75 years. There's also an established Republican desire to privatize USPS, probably so some private equity firm can suck that pension fund dry and discard the useless husk. If you want to preserve the USPS, get ready to fight to defend it.

Re:Pension

[TheRealMindChild]

This has very little to do with the USPS anyway. Trump bloody hates Bezos because he owns the Washington Post, which regularly publishes stuff unflattering to Trump and his circle of friends

Re:Pension

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump bloody hates Bezos because he owns the Washington Post, which regularly publishes factual information.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Pension

[skids]

Is the USPS a private for-profit company? No.

The real reason Republicans want to kill this quasi-public, self-funding agency is
because they can't make money (off the little guy) by buying stock in it and sucking
profits out through a golden straw. How dare the common man have a reliable
way to deliver mail that doesn't pay for their yachts?

Re: Pension

[olsmeister]

If you want to pre-sort the mail you send, deliver it to the postal sorting center rather than having it picked up at your house, and give up the requirement to have it delivered as soon as possible, then maybe you too can get better rates.

Re:Pension

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. I'm a democrat and I've never met a democrat that is "for abortion". It is a ridiculous statement. Abortion is a terrible choice for a women to have to make, but we believe that it is her choice. I find it absurd that republicans want to force people to have babies and don't want to provide health care, food, education or an living wage for the parents. Republicans would much rather give tax breaks to the super rich than to provide a meal to a child they forced to be born. Complete hypocrisy.

Re:Pension

[VeryFluffyBunny]

Yep, here's an explanation from the USPS themselves and a nice analogy to illustrate just how unfair the current attack on the USPS is: https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/b...

Re:Pension

[MightyYar]

The Post is pretty good with facts. They also have a strong anti-Trump bias. Most reasonable people do, but papers are supposed to attempt unbiased reporting. If they are trying, they suck at it.

Re: Pension

[kenh]

Oh the horror, being fiscally responsible.

How cute. No one, and I mean no one, pre-funds their pension fund 75 years out, it's not rational.

Let's try this - why don't you go down to your local school board and get them to pre-fund their pension 75 years out, just like the USPS? Why not, according to you it is merely being 'fiscally responsible'?

Re:Pension

[plopez]

1) Often state governments have the same arrangement. Note if the USPS is leasing space they do pay taxes indirectly.

2) That depends. If it is leased then once again they do so indirectly. Note also they had to purchase property in the cases where it is owned by them.

3) Yes

4) Unknown. Probably not though. They have the famous case where the court rules "the power to tax is the power to destroy". But neither do states pay Federal tax. Oh, and neither do corporations.

The US Postal Service is mandated by the US Constitution. They provide a valuable and efficient service to *all* Americans in the US. Not just the profitable locations.

This is just another way to give a monopoly to one company.

I predict this will destroy commerce via mail.

Re:Pension

[greythax]

And third trimester "abortions" are almost universally because we still call pulling an already dead baby out of it's mother an "abortion". Your hair is a collection of cells, but cutting it isn't murder.

Re:Pension

[GrumpySteen]

Really? Let's see you pre-fund your household expenses for the next 75 years with a 10 year deadline for the prefunding to be done. It's the fiscally responsible thing for you to do, after all.

Re:Pension

[nospam007]

"Hasn't it already been pretty well established that the USPS is doing just fine, but the accounting practices congress forces them to use for their pension funding make it look bad on paper?"

Nonetheless, the idiot will make the post office asking for a higher price, which then will prompt Amazon to create their own 'delivery boy' service, thereby ruining the post office and thousands of people may lose their pensions and jobs.

Re:Pension

[greythax]

Because sometimes a baby can develop without a brain and still have a beating heart. This baby is, for all acounts, dead. As dead as you would be if I removed the majority of your brain. Here's a better idea, if you are trying to pass a late term abortion ban, then start adding medical exemptions to the bills. Let a Dr with actual training decide what is and is not a living child.

And a fetus doesn't become a fetus until after 8 weeks, btw. But like I say, you either science, or you don't.

Re:Pension

[giggleloop]

Republicans claim that government is inefficient, corrupt and wasteful... then get elected and prove their point. Looking for examples in the US is pointless since all government departments are generally run by people hamstrung by the whims of a system which despises their existence and a public who regularly spit on them in service of worshipping the corporation gods. Other countries manage to run such services fine when both government and the people believe in them.

Re:Pension

[Anonymous Coward]

it's a half a billion people on the government's payroll

No it's not. It is exactly zero people on the government's payroll.

The USPS does not get any tax dollars.

Re: Pension

[kenh]

When people can retire and set their kids or grandkids to be beneficiaries, then you have a real problem as they will be paid in full for far longer than 75 years.

You literally made that up, USPS retirees can't designate their kids or grandkids as beneficiaries for their retirement payments.

Re:Pension

[smooth wombat]

name a SINGLE government agency that is efficient at what it does.

The Department of Energy loan program which had Solyndra. Yes, that one is efficient and successful. Of all the loans it has given out, only four have failed. The loss rate for the program (as of 2014) was 2.28%. Right now that program is making money even though it was never intended to do so.

Further, Republicans were so sure the taxpayers would lose money on this program (which was started during the Bush administration), they set aside $10 billion to cover losses. Those four failures cost less than $1 billion.

Compare that to private industry which lost over $1 billion on Solyndra alone. Even Tesla paid back its loans nine years early, with interest.

You wanted one example, there ya go. Now go ahead and move the goalposts.

Re:Pension

[Dixie_Flatline]

In Canada, there's no law on the books governing abortions at all; it's a decision between a woman and her doctor.

That said, there are almost no third-trimester abortions. The only times where it might happen are when the fetus has already died. Women that carry the baby to the third trimester nearly universally WANTED the baby. There's no reason to outlaw the practice since it's only done for medically necessary reasons.

Contrary to the belief of anti-choice advocates, women that get abortions aren't doing them unnecessarily or capriciously. There's a litany of reasons why a woman might make that choice, but honestly, it's nobody's business but hers. A woman has bodily autonomy, and to deny that gives her less rights than a corpse. (This is literally true; you cannot use a dead person's organs without their prior consent, which is why you need to sign your organ donor card.)

Re:Pension

[greythax]

Because, there are people we can ask, much better qualified than YOU, called Doctors, and they can tell us when it is unnecessary to torture a mother whose baby has formed non-viably by forcing her to keep the corpse in her belly until "term".

Re: Pension

[reanjr]

The USPS. It's profitable and provides a service that is both far cheaper and can service far more customers than any private competition.

Re:Pension

[Rick Schumann]

The US Postal Service is mandated by the US Constitution. They provide a valuable and efficient service to *all* Americans in the US. Not just the profitable locations.

Great point, really. Otherwise we end up with the 'gentrification' of the mail service. Imagine this: neighborhoods full of poor minorities suddenly don't get mail service anymore because it's 'unprofitable', being forced to drive to some far-away facility to pick up what was mail service to their door (assuming they can even get there at all). Or worse, they have to pay some sort of 'delivery surcharge' because they're not on 'normal routes', putting more financial stress on people already living paycheck to paycheck. Is this really the America we want to create?

Re:Pension

[MightyMartian]

The problem here, as always, is creating a sort of artificial divide between a corporate bureaucracy and governmental bureaucracy. I've done a lot of work with government employees, and while there are issues, it never seems that much different than working with corporate bureaucracy. It's more about the general behavior of large organizations, than anything specific to public versus private organizations.

Re:Pension

[Daemonik]

name a SINGLE government agency that is efficient at what it does.

Medicare and Medicaid provide health care coverage at a vastly reduced administrative cost compared to insurance companies, and actually pays their bills on time without dragging their feet to the point your doctor is about to sue you before admitting that yes, you are covered for that procedure.

Re: Pension

[phantomfive]

Also, every government expense is basically a rounding error next to Medicare, SS, and the military. You could completely get rid of the postal service, get rid of every other inefficiency in government, and it would make very little difference in the overall budget (especially the growing deficit). People argue very emotionally about this topic but it's not really worth getting emotional about.

Useless without Congress

[Anonymous Coward]

For some reason, Congress will not allow the USPS to use GAAP for their pension and healthcare obligations which make the USPS look like it is in the red. It is actually a well-run amortization that by normal metrics is revenue neutral.

Re:Useless without Congress

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if the USPS was in the red, it's still an incredibly valuable and critical piece of public infrastructure and should be well funded. Yes, even at a net loss. If we can light $600+ billion on fire every year to fund the most powerful military in the world, we can throw a few pennies at the postal service.

Re:Useless without Congress

[Trailer Trash]

Even if the USPS was in the red, it's still an incredibly valuable and critical piece of public infrastructure and should be well funded. Yes, even at a net loss. If we can light $600+ billion on fire every year to fund the most powerful military in the world, we can throw a few pennies at the postal service.

Here's the thing, and I say this as a libertarian. Well, let me show you something:

http://constitutionus.com/

Scroll down to Article I, Section 8, paragraph 7. It's short, I'll put it here:

(The Congress shall have Power) To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

It's actually in the Constitution! This is a fully legal part of the federal government. This isn't the Department of Education.

The founders recognized that this was a really important function of the government, so important that they put it in a list of only 18 areas over which the federal government has legal authority.

I'm glad the USPS funds itself, but I don't care, actually. It's a very important thing to have around and we need to protect it, even if that means throwing a little money at it now and then.

That said, it also needs to fulfill its pension obligations.

Re:he's probably right

[belthize]

I think the moon is made out of cheese. We should audit NASA while we're at it.

Re:Jealous

[jellomizer]

Probably, but it is more that Bezos owns a news paper that doesn't suck up to him. He will let the country fail, just as long as people are telling him how good he is.

Re:Don't they pay postage?

[Kierthos]

They (Amazon) do pay. Trump is (or was) apparently under the impression that selecting "Free Shipping" for your purchases from Amazon meant that the Post Office didn't get any money for delivering that package.

Re:Do the reasons actually matter?

[rgmoore]

I rather suspect that he has access to really good base information on the subject

I'm sure he has access to more information about USPS than the rest of us. I'm also sure he's not looking at that information because it would require reading, which he is apparently unwilling to do. He is most likely basing his complaints about USPS on his personal grudge against Jeff Bezos and some misinformation he heard on Fox News, since personal grudges and TV propaganda are the same tools he uses to make all his other decisions.

Re:Do the reasons actually matter?

[Oswald McWeany]

I rather suspect that he has access to really good base information on the subject

I'm sure he has access to more information about USPS than the rest of us. I'm also sure he's not looking at that information because it would require reading, which he is apparently unwilling to do. He is most likely basing his complaints about USPS on his personal grudge against Jeff Bezos and some misinformation he heard on Fox News, since personal grudges and TV propaganda are the same tools he uses to make all his other decisions.

But rather than ever admit he's wrong he will make up false facts and spend the remaining two and a half years of his presidency bashing Amazon.

Re:Do the reasons actually matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

He might accidentally find an actual problem, and in his awkward, inept way come up with a plan for a solution that (over a couple of years) solves the problem.

Yeah, he'll hire John Ratzenberger who played the postman on Cheers to turn it around. Or some Fox News commentator to do it.

Trump's business knowledge is greatly overstated.

Art of the Deal?

[ripvlan]

Seems strange that a guy who has claimed previously that he's "The Best" at making good deals, and has suggested that those who fail to make good deals are stupid, would beat up Amazon for making a ... good deal !

So while the postal service needs an overhaul in this modern world I have to doubt the motivation. UPS and FedEx are doing terrific due to online orders. So hasn't the postal service benefited as well? Could it be they were last to offer Tracking of packages? Had mandates that conflicted with growth? Didn't invest and see the future?

It is a gov't service. So it runs rain or shine. Where as business can change and decide what markets they want to service.

Re:Art of the Deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a gov't service. So it runs rain or shine.

which is why amazon, and other retailers, and even ups and fedex, uses the post office... letter carriers go by nearly every address, every single day, anyway, whether their trucks are empty or full.

amazon gets lower rates because they label and size packages for automated sorting and because they tell the post office ahead of 'mailing' where packages are going from and to. any business with the volume of amazon could get the same rates if they did the same thing. the fucking rates are published and non-discriminatory aside from technical and volume restrictions and requirements. amazon isn't paying some secret super-low rate, amazon can offer 'free shipping' because of retail markup and because of the sheer scale of amazon prime (many, many more people do not use their shipping benefit than do).

Re:Do the reasons actually matter?

[squiggleslash]

I rather suspect that he has access to really good base information on the subject, while we are all relegated to commenting on news articles (that have to make money by with selling shock and outrage).

While it's logically true that he should have access:

1. He's on record as refusing to read anything complex, stating publicly he avoids anything that's more than a page long and doesn't have a small number of bullet points.
2. If he had information that Amazon was fleecing the Post Office, he wouldn't be calling for a friggin' audit, would he? He'd just order that information released.

So no, I don't think it's remotely possible he has any evidence at all that Amazon are fleecing the USPS. Quite the reverse, I suspect he's being told by everyone concerned that he's wrong, and he's insisting on an audit because he still thinks he's right and he thinks somehow getting another voice in will help him.

Re:Do the reasons actually matter?

[rhazz]

I rather suspect that he has access to really good base information on the subject,

He has access to great information and even expert advice on many topics. Based on his behaviour, this doesn't actually seem to affect many of his decisions.

Also, he has at least some familiarity and ability with finance, unlike many other politicians.

Which is completely irrelevant since the only politician involved is Trump, who has a personal grudge against Amazon.

In any event, lets assume he's bumbling into a subject which we've identified as a problem for many years.

Traditional postal revenue has declined for years. Package delivery is probably one of the major things propping it up. If prices need to be adjusted, then adjust prices. People who work at USPS would probably be the best qualified to have an opinion about that. Meanwhile anyone with common sense can see Trump's voiced opinion is far more about his grudge against Amazon's CEO than a concern to fix the USPS. He's singling out Amazon because he wants to hurt their stock.

Do the audit!

[Locke2005]

When the results come out, it will prove Trump is a dotard that has no idea what he is talking about. And the anti-Trump media will be certain to publicize that. I expect the report will come out right before the 2018 election.

Crybaby Trump throwing yet another fit

[Rick Schumann]

WAAAH! Jeff Bezos is richer and a more successful businessman than I am, WAAAH!

This is what Trump looks like when he's talking about Jeff Bezos

Donald Trump acts like a spoiled-rotten narcissistic 5-year-old most of the time already, but you confront him with someone who is clearly and objectively richer, more successful, and a better overall businessman? He loses his shit and lashes out in a childlike temper-tantrum like this, which is going to cost you, the U.S. taxpayer, as a totally unnecessary 'audit' of the USPS is conducted. Meanwhile there are matters vitally important to the Nation as a whole that are being ignored in favor of Trumps' ego and vanity. Isn't enough enough already? Trump voters: what were you thinking!?

Re:Jealous

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason Trump doesn't want his income tax statements public is that he lives off borrowed money and doesn't pay taxes because he technically doesn't earn any money.

Nobody that would be considered rich "earns" any money in the sense of "exchanges labor" for it anyway. Earning is the sort of thing people do when they just need to survive. Being rich implies that your money makes money and you have so much of it that you could live your entire life without either running out or needing to do any of that filthy labor stuff.

Rich people, throughout history, have often operated under the framework that non-rich people exist only to do their bidding, don't have any intrinsic value, and life would be rather better if they didn't exist at all. History books have some exciting stories when this ends badly.

Re:Nobody is trying to eliminate USPS

[GerryGilmore]

I would submit that this is basically Trump being the thin-skinned moron he is. However, you must acknowledge that there is a LARGE portion of the "Conservative" base who hate all "Gummint" agencies and would love to see them eliminated or privatized (the same thing, the latter is just a slower process. The Post Office is a favorite whipping-boy of RWTR and has been for decades. Wake up, please.