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White House Reportedly Exploring Wartime Rule To Help Coal, Nuclear (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: According to reports from Bloomberg and E&E News, the Trump Administration has been exploring another way to help coal and nuclear generators: the Defense Production Act of 1950. The Act was passed under President Truman. Motivated by the Korean War, it allows the president broad authority to boost U.S. industries that are considered a priority for national security. On Thursday, E&E News cited sources that said "an interagency process is underway" at the White House to examine possible application of the act to the energy industry. The goal would be to give some form of preference to coal and nuclear plants that are struggling to compete with cheap natural gas.

If the DOE decides not to invoke Section 202(c), the president may turn to the Defense Production Act. According to a 2014 summary report (PDF) from the Congressional Research Service (CRS), the act would allow the president to "demand priority for defense-related products," "provide incentives to develop, modernize, and expand defense productive capacity," and establish "a voluntary reserve of trained private sector executives available for emergency federal employment," among other powers. (Some even more permissive applications of the Act were terminated in 1957.) Using the Act to protect coal and nuclear facilities would almost certainly be more controversial, as the link between national defense and keeping uneconomic coal generators running is not well-established.
The Administration could apply the Act to "provide or guarantee loans to industry" for material-specific deliveries and production. "The president may also authorize the purchase of 'industrial items or technologies for installation in government or private industrial facilities,'" reports Ars.

54 of 308 comments (clear)

  1. And here we thought only sustainable was bankrupt by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seems that the fabled fossil fuel industries must be carefully fed taxpayer dollars just to stay afloat.
    So who's the leech here, oil barons?
    Solar? Wind? Geothermal? Biomass?
    Nope, it's YOU fools.

  2. What about us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The horseshoers of America have been having a tough time as of late since the Army isn't using as many warhorses as they used to. #MakeAmericaShodAgain

    1. Re: What about us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't mean to nag but there are too many neighsayers for that to work.

    2. Re: What about us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sure, it may not provide a stable income like in its hayday, but ponying up the money should reign in those complaining they've been saddled with a raw deal. It's only a few bucks.

  3. Mythological war on coal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yeah. Because of fracking in the USA and Russian natural gas producers and others World wide, the price of Natural Gas plummeted to where is was much cheaper than coal. Power plants that had no legal reason to do so, switched to NG because it was cheaper.

    The Free Market in action.

    But it hurt the coal miners. And they paid off certain Senators like, Mitch McConnell and Orin Hatch to lie and say the Obama administration started a "war on coal." (He backtracked after Trump was elected.)

    Hannity and Limbaugh (both liars themselves) propagated the lie among their gullible listeners as well as Trolls on facecbook and other places.

    Bit as we see, it was all the coal miners bribing Republican Senators to keep their outdated business profitable for themselves.

    1. Re:Mythological war on coal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Republicans are all about subsidizing broken, obsolete or flawed ideas. It's their entire platform, while pretending to be against big deficit spending (for a few years)

    2. Re: Mythological war on coal. by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Not the miners, the executives who take all the money.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re: Mythological war on coal. by careysub · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Koch family empire was built on oil. Fred Koch's founding business was an oil refinery, and the present day Kochs run a diversified petrochemical business.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    4. Re:Mythological war on coal. by gtall · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think the coal industry has enough money to make big contributions to Republicans. Rather, I think the Republicans are playing on the notion that coal will save the states where there are enough fools in those states to think coal could do this.

      As for the Republicans blaming Obama for a "war on coal", in some sense it doesn't matter what Obama did, they'd have picked on something else. They needed an "issue" and the "war on coal" guaranteed them Republican voters. Those states never bought into the whole Environment Degradation issue that is central to Democrats. The voters in those states more or less have a Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to coal. Coal can foul their air and their water, but they understand coal, they do not understand Env. Deg. E. D. doesn't provide jobs. The whole fact that coal doesn't provide many jobs and what jobs it does are being automated away is lost on the voters in those states.

      Nothing the White House can do on coal will save it, natural gas will eat the part of the lunch it hasn't already eaten. I'm unsure about nuclear. If the W.H. were serious about nuclear, they'd solve the waste issue first...but they aren't serious, and solving it would be unglamorous, take a lot of time, require far reaching policy decisions...in short, just what the Republicans are no good at.

    5. Re:Mythological war on coal. by youngone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So you're arguing socialized medicine and Public services/state-subsidized education are a bad thing? Wow.
      Where I live we call it civilization.

    6. Re: Mythological war on coal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nah he's fine with being someone else's pawn. Doesn't care that tax cuts to the rich limit his ability to succeed while preserving their elite position for no other reason than they already occupy that position. Doesn't care that the debt that is drawn as a result of the tax cuts is then bought by wealthy foreign nationals and the very same people who got the tax cut allowing them to not only invest more but then get further benefits in long term stable bond interest rates - essentially his tax pays them interest. He's fine with that.

      Meanwhile China is getting rich from this very system and investing the profits in huge state funded developments which mean that their internal transport economy is massively improved, their ability to move their military internally is much more efficient and their population has 65 million empty homes to grow into.

      One empire is heading towards a new golden age. The other is crumbling. But you know, pets not actually stop to think about why it's crumbling.

      There is proof in economic theory that stimulating the bottom end of the economy actually generates the most growth. Not this trickle down deflationary bullshit.

      But then again who would expect programmers who are good at maths to actually understand the macroeconomic implications of this usury. No one cares that a peasant in the 1400s had access and right through commons to more natural resources than the average working class citizen today. That resources that belonged to you and everyone were sold without your implicit permission in a way that you saw no benefit to allow generations of certain privileged families to feast on the cream of your crop.

      Unless you're a billionaire you're a nieve moron if you don't understand that you would be better off under some kind of socialism. It's not like democratic capitalist countries have a proven track record of limiting the human rights abuses so often used to juxtapose capitalism and communism. When the leaders of the free world have directly authorised the most aggressive behaviour both militarily and financially. It is under these regimes that water is no longer your human right.

      These very fossil fuel industries can't wait for their byproduct of foul air to allow a market to sell your canned air. You should be thankful you're alive peasant. It is by the grace of the glorious elite that you are even allowed to live. It is by their invention and means of production that you even survive. They own it. Not you. Even if it should have been yours, and everyone else's all along.

    7. Re:Mythological war on coal. by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      And yet, we continue to see more and more of this BECAUSE we do not have a decent minimum wage.
      OTOH, if we had a decent minimum wage AND would solve the illegal issue, then we would likely see all of this public spending go away. Sadly, you fascists want to keep supporting companies in this fashion.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    8. Re: Mythological war on coal. by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ROFL.
      What jobs will Americans NOT do? We do them all, just not at below minimum wage.
      And the illegals are actually bankrupting companies. The reason is that most are paid less than minimum, but more than their own nations pay (hence why they are here). It is the same issue for Europe and even China now.
      BUT, the fact is, that illegals have taken many high paying jobs. For example, construction used to pay good money. Back in early 80s, I was paid $8-12 / hr for doing labor and $13-20/hr for carpenter work. Now, illegals are making the same amount of money, but not paying taxes.

      BUT, if they go home, then our military vets can get paid decently, and we can automate a lot. Same as what is seen in other nations all over the world.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    9. Re:Mythological war on coal. by mikael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if they can modernize the coal stations so that they don't emit carbon soot that would be a good thing. There are systems to scrub and collect all those gases and pollutants. Same with nuclear power. The old slashdot joke states that the nuclear industry wanted to decommission old plants and build new ones. The environmentalists wanted no more new plants and to decommission the old ones. So they compromised. Keep the old plants running and don't build any new plants.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    10. Re:Mythological war on coal. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The problem is that the scrubbers cost a lot of money and are not 100% effective. So if you have a finite amount of money to invest in power generation you have to choose between cleaning up coal, gambling on nuclear or putting it into rapidly growing renewables.

      Even if you don't care about the environment it's clear that renewables and energy storage are the better investment and the general direction in which everything is moving.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    11. Re:Mythological war on coal. by Type44Q · · Score: 2

      it was all the coal miners

      This isn't hard; repeat after me: "Coal Mining Companies." Coal miners are just folks desperate enough to feed their families that they're willing to endure [what for most Westerners] are dangerous, unhealthy and unimaginably unpleasant working conditions.

  4. Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Coal is not clean at all. It causes lots of air pollution, especially in the form of carbon. The carbon dioxide is causing global temperatures to rapidly warm and is threatening mass extinctions. Yet you right wing nutjobs are obsessed with coal. Your obsession with coal is helping to destroy the Earth, along with your obsession with huge SUVs that waste gasoline. Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth?

    1. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth?

      They don't hate the Earth, They love power at any cost. Evil is not about I think I'll pollute the earth today because I'm evil. Evil is about not giving a fuck about polluting the Earth because by helping this group they can help keep their power to do other things.

      It is power and control at any cost. Some of their coalition no doubt even care about certain issues and so the Faustian bargain continues because they must have power to advance those issues, so will turn a blind eye to everything else and what is more they will rationalize _anything_ for their people because they advance their key issues.

      Many of them truly believe in their moral cause, and that is what is so scary. Even now Trump has a really good approval rating among republicans, and no amount of corruption is going to change it, because they truly see it as the lesser evil.

      Hell the one and only saving grace about Trump is he seems to care about nothing but his own brand. If he was a zealot of some kind we might be in three more wars by now. That doesn't mean he isn't doing enormous damage to our country and our planet and to simple standards of human decency. He is. It just means it could be worse.

    2. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by Alain+Williams · · Score: 2

      Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth?

      The big effects of climate change are several decades into the future, propping up coal wins votes in 3 years time.

    3. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 5, Informative

      Start reading here: https://phys.org/news/2015-02-...

      If that's not enough, read all the good science referenced here: http://iopscience.iop.org/arti...

      If you've gotten this far and still are unconvinced, you must not believe in the scientific method of thought or are in the extreme minority, more here on that topic: https://climate.nasa.gov/scien...

      One does not have to be a scientist to know that something is terribly wrong.

      Happy earth day.

      --
      Greed is the root of all evil.
    4. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Please cite at least one peer-reviewed, scientific study that demonstrates CO2 greenhouse gas effect."

      Please cite at least one that doesn't.

      "Find one original experimental study which shows a direct, causative link between CO2 and temperature increase."

      Right after you find me a couple hundred identical planets, to use as test and control groups to come up with a statistically valid experiment to your satisfaction; right after you give me the technology to control and vary climate composition levels directly.

      "Ten years ago, I tried and I failed. Blown my mind at the time."

      It blew your mind that climate science, the study of a global scale phenomena of which we have exactly one to study, and of which we have very little direct control isn't awash in studies which show direct causative links between A and B ? Really?

      "I can now freely admit that I was a clueless fucking librtard."

      I don't know about libtard, but 'fucking clueless' is apt.

    5. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by Sique · · Score: 5, Informative
      Here: John Tyndall: Contributions to Molecular Physics in the Domain of Radiant Heat, London 1872.

      Lets put it that way: The Greenhouse Effect is a wellknown phenomenon since at least 150 years (hey, we build greenhouses for some reason!). And of course every material that has different absorbtion properties at different frequencies comes with a greenhouse effect, because it is transparent to some frequencies and absorbs energy at other frequencies. Thus energy that at one frequency passes the layer gets trapped at other frequencies. Glass for instance is very transparent for electromagnetic waves from the visual spectrum, but is not for frequencies of the thermal spectrum. That's why we build greenhouses with glass roofs. Because of Ludwig Boltzmann's, Josef Stefan's and Gustav Kirchhoff's work, we know the distribution of the frequency of a Black Body's radiation, and we know, that Earth at a surface temperature of 290 K on average radiates its thermal energy at frequencies (Kirchhoff's Law, Planck's Law) where carbon dioxide, vapor and methane are absorbing electromagnetic waves. On the other hand, the Sun (with a surface temperature of 5700 K) emits its energy at much higher frequencies, for which most atmospheric gases are transparent. The Sun's energy enters the Earth's atmosphere at frequencies close to the visual spectrum, the light gets absorbed at the Earth's surface and heats it up to 255 K (on average). Then the Earth radiates the energy, but the atmosphere is intransparent at thermal frequencies due to the presence of vapor, carbon dioxide and methane. Only if Earth gets heated up due to the trapped energy to 290 K, it radiates enough energy to get into a thermal equilibrium.

      That's the greenhouse effect on Earth. We have greenhouse effects at the other planets too, if they have an atmosphere. Venus is famous for its strong greenhouse effect which causes Venus's surface to have temperatures above 700 K. Mars has a greenhouse effect too, but because of the thin atmosphere, it's quite small and increases the surface temperature about 20 K above the Black Body temperature.

      The current greenhouse effect of Earth is about 35 K, but it is highly dependent on the actual atmospheric composition. Changing the makeup of the atmosphere changes the strength of the greenhouse effect.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    6. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by PPH · · Score: 2

      Coal is not clean at all. It causes lots of air pollution

      This, exactly.

      It's time to double down on nuclear plant construction.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by pesho · · Score: 4, Informative

      Let's do a brain test on you. Please cite at least one peer-reviewed, scientific study that demonstrates CO2 greenhouse gas effect.

      Here you go (the second hit in the search is a good one, and as you keep going down the list you should be able to get at least a hundred more):

      https://scholar.google.com/sch...

      This search doesn't even include the basic physics behind the phenomenon which were established back in the 19th century.

      Ten years ago, I tried and I failed. Blown my mind at the time.

      Are you sure that you had a mind to blow? Based on your post it seems you had a void where you brain should be that suffered implosion rather than explosion event.

      I can now freely admit that I was a clueless fucking librtard. Let's see if you can be equally honest now.

      You are still fucking clueless. Not sure what librtard means. Please define.

    8. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 4, Informative

      > "Find one original experimental study which shows a direct, causative link between CO2 and temperature increase."

      The temperature of Venus (863 F) is much higher than can be accounted for by being closer to the Sun. It gets 91% more sunlight, and basic thermodynamics says the equilibrium temperature should be 17.6% higher on the Kelvin scale, so 353 K = 80 C = 175 F. Therefore early science fiction stories assumed it was cloudy because it was hot and steamy, but people might be able to live near the poles. The first probes that got there found this was not at all right. The surface pressure is 90.8 times Earth's, and it is 96.5% CO2. Carbon Dioxide being a greenhouse gas, it traps infrared heat, warming the planet to the temperature I noted.

      Mercury is much closer to the Sun, and gets 3.5 times as much sunlight, but is airless, and therefore is somewhat cooler than Venus, even at equatorial noon when it is hottest.

    9. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by gtall · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Re Trump and his approval rating among Republicans. It is possible that the Republicans have chased a fair number of the normal people out of the Party that simply cannot stomach him. So his approval rating would remain high in the left over dregs.

    10. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by pesho · · Score: 5, Funny

      Let me restate the original question in simpler terms: where does it say anything about the causative role of CO2 in global warming?

      Maybe, for once, you libtards could stop assuming that your opponents are stupid brainless hilter trump russia nazis?

      Oh no Sunshine, I am not assuming anything. I am basing my conclusion that you are an ignorant idiot (stupid and brainless apply too) on the fact that you did not read past the abstract of the first article. Have you read further you would have found that "The greenhouse effect of doubling CO2 is 4 W m-2 and that of human activities during the past century is ~2 W m-2.". Again, I fail to understand some aspects of your last sentence. Please define the following terms: "libtards" and "hilter trump russia nazis". Some of them may apply to you too, but I don't want to jump to conclusions without knowing what you mean by these terms.

    11. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      try svante arrhenius from 1896 http://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius1896_tcm18-173546.pdf

    12. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 3, Informative

      Find one original experimental study which shows a direct, causative link between CO2 and temperature increase.

      You know what's great about science? You can do it yourself!

      Here you'll find one of many youtube videos that demonstrates a simple experiment that you can perform using commonly available materials in your own home to show a direct, causative link between CO2 and temperature increase, just as you've asked.

      Hopefully your mind will be equally blown this time around.

      Also, your google-fu sucks. Seriously. That video took me all of 10 seconds to find, and the experiment it describes could be performed by a kid in grammar school.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    13. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      "Please cite at least one peer-reviewed, scientific study that demonstrates CO2 greenhouse gas effect."

      That's going to be tough. The reflectivity of CO2 to infrared, and thus the greenhouse effect, was discovered a long time ago, so you'd have to go quite a ways back. It's a pretty common high school science fair experiment though, so you could check out one of those.

    14. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by chadenright · · Score: 2

      How about this one? http://www.climatechangenews.c... That appears to be a news report on this study: https://www.nature.com/article...

    15. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by chadenright · · Score: 2

      Shills like AC are too busy pointing fingers to realize that it doesn't matter if global warming is our fault or not, it's still going to kill people and could literally send us back into the dark ages.

    16. Re:Why do you right wing nutjobs hate the Earth? by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      Let's do a brain test on you. Please cite at least one peer-reviewed, scientific study that demonstrates CO2 greenhouse gas effect.

      Here's one:

      Observational determination of surface radiative forcing by CO2 from 2000 to 2010

      Abstract (emphasis mine):

      The climatic impact of CO2 and other greenhouse gases is usually quantified in terms of radiative forcing, calculated as the difference between estimates of the Earth’s radiation field from pre-industrial and present-day concentrations of these gases. Radiative transfer models calculate that the increase in CO2 since 1750 corresponds to a global annual-mean radiative forcing at the tropopause of 1.82 ± 0.19 W m2. However, despite widespread scientific discussion and modelling of the climate impacts of well-mixed greenhouse gases, there is little direct observational evidence of the radiative impact of increasing atmospheric CO2. Here we present observationally based evidence of clear-sky CO2 surface radiative forcing that is directly attributable to the increase, between 2000 and 2010, of 22 parts per million atmospheric CO2. The time series of this forcing at the two locations—the Southern Great Plains and the North Slope of Alaska—are derived from Atmospheric Emitted Radiance Interferometer spectra together with ancillary measurements and thoroughly corroborated radiative transfer calculations. The time series both show statistically significant trends of 0.2 W m2 per decade (with respective uncertainties of ±0.06 W m2 per decade and ±0.07 W m2 per decade) and have seasonal ranges of 0.1–0.2 W m2. This is approximately ten per cent of the trend in downwelling longwave radiation. These results confirm theoretical predictions of the atmospheric greenhouse effect due to anthropogenic emissions, and provide empirical evidence of how rising CO2 levels, mediated by temporal variations due to photosynthesis and respiration, are affecting the surface energy balance.

  5. Coal is dead, and Natural Gas killed it. by Ayano · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even if you cut renewables out, Natural Gas is cheaper to extract, requires fewer workers, and is safer both to burn and acquire. This isn't propping up fossil fuels, this is preferring an industry whose workforce doesn't want to adapt or change.

    --
    I don't read AC
    1. Re:Coal is dead, and Natural Gas killed it. by taiwanjohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      preferring an industry whose workforce doesn't want to adapt or change

      More to the point, it's about preferring any policy option that will make liberals cry. If they actually gave a crap about reality, they'd be pushing investment in infrastructure and human capital to accelerate the transition to a sustainable economy (kinda like China is doing). But no, this is just pure, spiteful politics to gin-up their base and ass-kiss their donors. Not much to see here...

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
  6. No national security reasons?! by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously, we have been at war in the Middle East for decades for one reason: energy. It's why we had Gulf War I, Gulf War II, and so many others. Fun fact, did you know the reason we refuse to withdraw from Syria despite the fact that ISIS has been defeated is energy? Yup. A proposed pipeline to supply from Qatar to Europe would weaken Russian influence. That's why we can't stop making war there. So let's not trot out the fiction that energy has nothing to do with national security, because it absolutely does.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:No national security reasons?! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      You misunderstand. It's not that energy isn't vital to national security. It's that the continued profitability of Trump's butt-buddies' businesses isn't.

      I know I surely misunderstand. Helping out nuclear power generation would surely be the kiss of death for Coal power in a quasi-sane world. Perhaps we will build some North Korean type empty cities and power them with 100 percent government subsidized coal power plants.

      Anyhow - good to see that the Republicans are sticking to their free market no regulation model, except when they model themselvelves after early 20th century Soviet system Expect the five year plan to come out soon.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    2. Re:No national security reasons?! by thomst · · Score: 5, Informative

      DNS-and-BIND blithered:

      Before the Syrian civil war, two pipelines were proposed by Qatar to get gas to Europe. Going through Syria. Now, don't forget, Qatar are (were) major Clinton Foundation donors. Iran, a Russian ally, also proposed a pipeline. It also went through Syria. Guess which one Assad approved?

      Oh, for pity's sake!

      The Clinton Foundation's relationship with Qatar had NOTHING to do with Assad's decision. Instead, as is the case with Middle Eastern politics in general, Islamic sectarianism was the deciding factor.

      Qatar is and, since the expansion of Islam beyond what are now the Saudi cities of Mecca and Medina, has always been ruled and principally inhabited by Sunni muslims. Syria is (and has been, ever since the Assad clan and its associated Ba'ath Party came to power) a Sunni-majority "nation" (if you're unclear why I put that term in quotes, go look up the Balfour Declaration for background on why "national" borders across the Middle East are arbitrary constructs that exist because of British arrogance, rather than naturally-derived nations that emerged from the traditional tribal and sectarian divisions in the region), ruled by an authoritarian, Shia-minority government that exerts control over the Sunni majority via oppression and terror. (In effect, it's a mirror image of the Iraqi power structure under Saddam Hussein, where a Sunni minority ruled a Shia majority via the same strategy.)

      The Assad clan chose the Iranian pipeline proposal because it has, ever since Iran's (Shia) Islamic Revolution of 1979, ALWAYS been an Iranian client state (as is the Hezboll'ah quasi-state in the Bekaa Valley region of Lebanon, which both Syria and Iran support with money and arms) and ally. There was never any serious possibility that the Assads would accept the Qatari proposals, because that would have obligated them to Sunni bankers - and, in the Middle East, such obligations always come with unpublicized, but very real political strings.

      Not to mention such an arrangement would have publicly humiliated the Iranian mullahs - which would have been unwise for an authoritarian state that depended heavily on arms and oil money from Iran to maintain its control over its own people and its supply pipline to its Hezboll'ah co-clients.

      This kind of myopic, USA-centric, profound misunderstanding of Middle Eastern politics, and its concomittant ignorance of how power actually works in the Islamic world is why we had no business whatsoever invading Iraq, why our experiment in enforced regime change in Libya backfired so spectacularly, and why allowing ourselves to be drawn into the developing quagmire in Syria is such a Really Bad Idea. We have NO idea what the fuck we're doing there, and our accumulated previous experience should have (but clearly has not) taught us that thrusting our military dick into the Middle East without a Waterford-clear idea of what we're trying to accomplish, precisely how we propose to accomplish it, exactly who the other players are (and what their respective power bases and goals are), and a precisely-defined exit strategy in hand, is arrogant foolishness of the very highest order.

      And it's essentially begging to be taught that lesson yet again, in the most humiliating and expensive way possible ...

      --
      Check out my novel.
  7. What about the free market? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I keep hearing all this bullshit from one side of the aisle about the "free market" being the best thing ever but then when the free market stops promoting their favorite industries then they suddenly need to swoop in and bail them out. What's worse is that they are rapidly expending shared capital: our uncontaminated environment.

    The truth of the matter is that goods (including energy generation) should have to pay for the pollution caused by their production. That money can then in turn be used to remove said pollution from the environment. This is how the free market should really be and it would be utterly devastating to regressive industries that pay no mind to the damage they do to our environment.

    Unleash the free market and destroy those who are hellbent on destroying the planet.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  8. Coal production versus manpower productivity by Elfich47 · · Score: 5, Informative

    A big issue is this: Coal has been steadily automating its mining systems. In 1950 underground mining was at the rate of 0.68 tons per man hour and surface mining was at the rate of 1.9 tons/manhour. By 2011 underground mining was at the rate of 2.76 tons/man hour and surface mining was at 8.8 tons/man hour. There were productivity peaks in 2003 of 4.04 and 10.75 tons/man hour.

    So assuming coal had maintained the same level of production between 1950 and 2011, the coal industry would have shed 75% of its manpower due to automation and has proven it can get to 80% reduction if it needs to. Then add in the reduction in coal consumption and it is a no-brainer as to why no one is being hired to work in the mines.

    So it Trump tries to boost coal consumption (which is the goal of his actions here); more coal may get produced and purchased, but very few additional workers will be hired. If anything, the mine owners will buy more automated equipment.

    Its not like any local town is going to build a coal power plant. Those take years of planning, approvals, oversight, and construction. Power plant planning and construction can easily take five to ten years, beginning to end. So any of this "make people buy more coal" rhetoric is not going to produce more jobs in any of the coal towns that are out there.

    Cited Reference:
    https://www.eia.gov/totalenerg...

    --
    Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
    1. Re:Coal production versus manpower productivity by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 5, Informative

      A big issue is this: Coal has been steadily automating its mining systems. In 1950 underground mining was at the rate of 0.68 tons per man hour and surface mining was at the rate of 1.9 tons/manhour. By 2011 underground mining was at the rate of 2.76 tons/man hour and surface mining was at 8.8 tons/man hour. There were productivity peaks in 2003 of 4.04 and 10.75 tons/man hour.

      Pretty much this. It is nothing short of amazing how quickly a few men can tear a mountain apart to extract the coal in it. I had a lot of relatives that worked in coal back in the day. Now, not one. Even jobs you would think were safe have been eliminated by just making the machines bigger. Like this http://www.mining.com/belaz-la...

      A mere 450 tonne payload, twin turbo diesels, and 65 Km/Hr speed. These trucks can be filled by the likes of "Big Muskie" (no longer in service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... which could do 220 cubic yards per scoop. We can build 'em as big as you want - in fact bigger than most mines will ever need

      The only way that the Trumpian/Miner coal jobs wet dream will ever materialize is by returning to the good old days of this: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/af/2... , this, https://c8.alamy.com/comp/DAHJ... and this https://upload.wikimedia.org/w...

      Gains in employment will be obtained by using mules in the mines, making the use of steam drills and jumbos and road headers illegal, just human and mule power, picks and shovels.

      Otherwise, as you point out, coal mining is pretty darn automated. This is yet another "jerbs, Jerbs, JERBS! event, where people who might not think out the whole situation are promised jerbs, and are pursuaded to vote for people who have no intention of making jobs for them, or perhaps aren't thinking either.

      The math is simply not there.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  9. What nuclear really needs.. by somepunk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is more R&D into advanced GenIV designs like MSR, VHTR, or small modular reactors, and a less punishing regulatory review process. We are abdicating our leadership to China, India, and Europe.

    --
    Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. (Isaac Asimov)
    1. Re:What nuclear really needs.. by Knightman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The funny thing about MSR is that the US had experimental reactors running and had tons of knowledge about them, but it was more or less deep sixed since LWR was the way to go so the military could get their fissionables for atomic weapons.

      All meltdowns to date (Three Mile Island, Chernobyl & Fukushima) has been LWR's. Due to how LWR's function they are all accidents waiting to happen if their cooling breaks down.

      China is busy trying to get Thorium MSR's up and running since they are better in all aspects compared to LWR, and Thorium is a much more abundant ore than Uranium.

      --
      --- Reality doesn't care about your opinions, it happens anyway and if you are in the way you'll get squished.
    2. Re:What nuclear really needs.. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is more R&D into advanced GenIV designs like MSR, VHTR, or small modular reactors, and a less punishing regulatory review process. We are abdicating our leadership to China, India, and Europe.

      We don't need that research becaus Nuclear is perfectly safe already. We need laws forcing building plants before any other power source is considered. Except for coal. Coal needs plants built before nuc except where nuc plants are built before coal.

      While that might sound sarcastic, it is the basic premise of Trump's concept.

      By the way - if we declare that coal and it's mining is a critical defense need, what happens to the 88 million metric tons that we exported in 2017? https://www.platts.com/latest-... What the hell kind of country exports that much of a critical strategic product? Sounds like aiding and abetting possible enemies of our country. This must end and end now! America's future is at stake.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  10. peaking plants by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Natural gas is not merely cheap, it also has a relatively low time to spool up for on-demand loads. Coal has a much harder time. Solar and wind have both problems with intermittency and peak loads. While grids can smooth that a bit there's no solution for that in the power source itself. Someday we will have flow batteries to handle surges and bridge short intermittencies, but even when those become technologically mature it's not likely they will have capacities in the giga-joule hour range. So that means some sort of base production with reasonably fast spin up times.

    Germany perversely solves this problem by burning coal (cause it's cheaper there than gas, and nukes are out). They solve the spin up time problem by just running the plants all the time whether power is needed or not, then selling the power they don't need to their neighbors over the grid. Sometimes they even sell at a loss. It makes sense to sell at a loss since some money is better than no money if you were going to produce the power anyhow. So ironically the more they deploy solar the more coal they burn.

    But if we do have things like flow batteries working for us, it's not just good for solar. It's also good for nuclear power too. These have slower spin up times than gas, but they may be cheaper (depending on how you factor in the externalities of waste and CO2 pollution and mining and fracking). So having stored energy like a battery also helps these become a reliable power source too.

    Thus it seems like the future ideal power mix is Nuke+Solar/wind+battery and some off line gas plants for emergencies.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:peaking plants by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      it's not likely they will have capacities in the giga-joule hour range.

      A giga-joule/hour is 277 kW. A single modern wind turbine generates ten times that much.

    2. Re:peaking plants by careysub · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They solve the spin up time problem by just running the plants all the time whether power is needed or not, then selling the power they don't need to their neighbors over the grid. That is nonsense. We have no strange spin up times where coal can not handle it.

      Coal plants have lots of issues with starting up quickly. 23% of all coal plant cold start-up events fail (produce no electricity). These failed start-ups persist for a median of 4 hours before being retried, though the average is 8 hours (i.e. a substantial number persist much longer). Of the start-ups that succeed the average start-up time from the beginning of combustion to producing power is about 8 hours.

      Coal plants are strictly base load plants, unable to deal with load fluctuation on a scale significantly shorter than a day.

      OTOH, natural gas peaking plants start-up in a matter of minutes.

      And: coal is down ot 40% of our power mix.

      And: we still produce 10%-12% of oir power by nuclear.

      Eh? No. In 2017 it coal power production was 30%, nuclear was 20%.

      Get a damn clue and stop spreading FUD.

      Maybe you should start looking up actual data and providing citations.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    3. Re:peaking plants by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 3, Informative

      > Wait, what?

      The grandparent post is somewhat confused.

      Prior to the mid-2000's, coal represented 50% of US electricity production. It is now 30%, a reduction of 40% from what it was, or 20% of total electric production. Three-quarters of the shift was due to cheap Natural Gas, and one quarter due to new solar and wind. Nuclear and hydroelectric have been steady at 20 and ~6% of US electricity, because we haven't built or retired much of either the last decade. Hydro is somewhat variable by year because it depends on rainfall to till the reservoirs. The California drought, for example, cut into what they could produce.

      Half a dozen midwest coal plants are expected to shut down in the next year. They continue to lose to Natural Gas, solar, and wind, which are all substantially cheaper these days. The change isn't all at once, because it takes time and money to replace half the US's generating capacity. If prices stay where they are, in another 15 years, coal will be gone. This naturally upsets people in the coal mining and coal burning industries. So they are doing everything they can to prevent it, including bribes, um, I mean, campaign contributions, to certain politicians.

    4. Re: peaking plants by rommy4706 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just from watching interviews with people that work in coal mines, they sound pretty entitled. They know their industry is dying but choose not to train into another Industry, and believe because they "built the country" that we owe it to them to keep them employed in coal mines. I get it. It's your livelyhood. But at a certain point you need to move on.

    5. Re:peaking plants by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      almost spot-on. We actually were at 60% coal at one time. Yeah, we are below 30% now, and dropping. However, I will have to say that Trump did NOT worry me because it would take massive amounts of subsidies beyond the subsidies that we have to keep coal growing again. I just KNEW that was not possible. Yet, it appears that they have found something that MIGHT make a difference. This is one item I will be watching carefully. This is about the only place that the idiot could actually set America back on our CO2.

      BTW, pay attention to Navajo power plant. That is one of our largest and by far, the dirtiest (it is on the reservation and therefore they pollute like they are in China). Assuming that Trump does not win this item, then Navajo will close down in 2 years. BUT, trump can get massive subsidies than the tribe will continue to run it.
      This plant is well known in the Air pollution community. The Rockies are monitored for pollution and about 50% of Colorado's Rockies pollution (particles, mercury, etc) come from the navajo plant. Interestingly, since the late 80s-early 90s, the group has detected that about 5% of the pollution there was coming from China and increasing every year. But, it still does not compare to Navajo. If we shut it down, that will radically change the pollution in my state.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    6. Re: peaking plants by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Fuck you and your anti China lies.

      Chinese troll detected.

      Virtually NO coal plant in America would pass Chinese regulations,

      Go on, pull the other one.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  11. We're at war with Eurasia by amorsen · · Score: 2

    We've always been at war with Eurasia.

    --
    Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  12. A law from 1950 by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Funny

    The time period seems quite in line with Trump’s thinking on most things.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  13. Re:Dont think with your brain, think with your hea by dgatwood · · Score: 2

    Sorry for the silliness above, but exactly what can be done to stop a Yellowstone eruption, if one is immanent?

    If by imminent, you mean in a year or less, there's nothing we can do but evacuate half the country. If you mean in a hundred years, quite a bit. We can:

    • Use drills and sonar to map the faults and figure out where parts of the ground above magma pockets are about to fail, so that we can determine which magma pockets are most at risk of exploding violently, thus allowing us to avoid building significant numbers of buildings on top of them.
    • Measure the magma pressure by continuously monitoring those pockets to see if they are expanding (and, consequently, if the rock around them is getting compressed) to determine when those pockets are likely to explode violently, so that we can warn people to evacuate even before the earth starts shaking.
    • Use boring machines to dig pressure relief tunnels to within a few hundred feet of those magma pockets so that the spot that is most likely to fail explosively is one in which the magma will flow harmlessly through an open channel to some largely unpopulated valley or even all the way to the ocean itself.
    • We can put explosives in those tunnels so that if things go wrong and some other spot fails first, we can blow up the rock walls between the tunnels and the magna pockets to ensure that most of the magma flows harmlessly through a safe channel.

    There are probably many more mitigation strategies that I haven't thought of. Those are just the first four off the top of my head.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.