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Tesla Batteries Retain Over 90 Percent Charging Power After 160,000 Miles, Survey Finds (engadget.com)
According to a survey of over 350 Tesla owners, Tesla batteries retain over 90 percent of their charging power after 160,000 miles. The EVs dropped only 5 percent of their capacity after 50,000 miles, but lose it at a much slower rate after that. Most Tesla vehicles will have over 90 percent of their charging power after around 185,000 miles, and 80 percent capacity after 500,000. Engadget reports: Tesla has no battery degradation warranty on its Model S and X luxury EVs, but guarantees that the Model 3 will retain 70 percent battery capacity after 120,000 miles (long-range battery) and 100,000 miles (shorter-range battery). That's a bit more generous than the one Nissan offers on the Leaf (66 percent over 100,000 miles) for instance. According to the survey data, Tesla will easily be able to meet this mark.
I'd like to see the results of Tesla's amazing battery tech on electric bicycles.
#DeleteFacebook
Can't do wrong selling cars when you can't produce any to sell!
More interesting would be the capacity rating over a say 10 year life period, rather than (partial) charge cycles. Tesla hasn't been in existence long enough for this though.
I thought they used 18650s -- just a BUNCH of them with a lot of battery monitoring hardware.
If that's right, would they hold their overall charge capacity longer because people (I assume) keep them topped off and not routinely run them down to 0%? (Who wants an unexpected walk?) Or is it the battery monitoring stuff being "nice" to the battery as long as possible?
Or do they have "special selected electrons" in their power stations? (Only the roundest ones for our customers, so they slide around easier. One, two.
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
THIS IS SURVEY DATA so that is of note off the bat.. I wonder though how short 'actual driving and charging' randomness would affect that outcome as compared to long 'highway miles' full cycle testing regimes?
This isn't news but really just standard practice. News would be comparing the real world battery life and degradation against all available EV batteries and then comparing those figures.
A warranty means nothing compared to real world figures. I have several products warrantied for life. In most cases it costs more to ship the product in for replacement or repair than it does to purchase a new one. Then there are the standard 1 year warranties on electronic products. I'm sure 99% have far exceeded their warranty period.
All this is saying is that a piece of technology didn't catastrophically fail.
One thing I would like to add. It is highly possible these and other EV batteries are treated more like SSD's. You may purchase a 480 gig SSD, but it really has 500+ gigs available. This "extra" capacity fills in for failures and makes you think your drive is reliable when it may not be.
If an EV predicts your mileage. You use that as the number. It tells you nothing about the actual battery capacity. Also you can't really check batteries for pass/fail cells like a sector on a drive. Some could be at 90% some at 99% and others at 75%. The car will just give you a random estimated range that is associated with capacity which was most likely a very conservative number in the beginning.
batteries? I have a pile of Dell Latitude batteries on my desk for laptops mostly between eighteen months and two years old that I need to distribute. We've recently been buying Dell Precision laptops since they have internal batteries that don't have the problems removable batteries have. Too many of our users have laptops shutoff when they're walking into conference rooms. It sucks having to wait on people running meetings that take 5+ minutes for Windows to reboot while you're waiting on them to screen share. I hate not having user replaceable batteries, but they do have fewer problems with unintentional disconnects. I'm just dreading our next round of Dell battery replacements since I'll have to open the case. We bought a batch of Precision 5520 laptops last July, and I've replaced batteries in almost half of them so far. They take me about twenty-five minutes to do. I know I'll get better with practice, but that's still a lot of work.
Why can't laptop batteries last as long as Tesla batteries?
You must really hate electric vehicle to be so negative. I think the fact that these batteries last 500,000 miles is pretty amazing. Usually lifetime warranties are not for batteries because no-one expects batteries to last a long time. Look at laptop batteries, they only used to last 2-3 years regardless of whether you even used the laptop.
"All this is saying is that a piece of technology didn't catastrophically fail." No, it's saying that the battery tech is very good and the batteries can be recharged a shit-ton of times without major degradation.
"standard practice" isn't even a term you can apply to goods.
Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
Of course, that will void all the billion dollar options and package he has now, but he does not care much about money personally. So that is not a problem. But he has so much ego and would not like the shorts to win either. That is his dilemma.
He needlessly limited his options, by responding to Economist and Bloomberg, saying categorically he is not going to seek financing etc. He should have thrown in some weasel words in there.
But, in the end, Space X is very good shape, it is likely to land some really big defence contracts and communication satellite launches. So like he used Tesla to rescue Solar City, he will use SpaceX to rescue Tesla. By the time Tesla rescue package bill comes due, Tesla is likely to be in a much better shape and will weather the storm.
If it is not SpaceX, he can tap the Japanese bond market through the battery making partner Panasonic. Or he can sell out to the devil and bring China in and they would gladly retire the Solar City rescue package debt for a decent chunk of Tesla and access to its AI experts. So my personal hunch is the shorts are going to escape with just some minor losses, suing for a draw.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Which lasts about 18 minutes after two years of charge-discharge cycles.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Teslas don't work in the winter, they are too expensive and nobody buys them, there is no way to charge them on any sort of reasonable road trip, they won't work for me because I commute 500 miles every day, and they're just propped up by the government anyway. Add to this that they can't manufacture them in volume, they will run out of batteries, they'll run out of the raw materials for the batteries, and nobody wants them anyway, and look at all the recalls!
My ICE doesn't drop down to 90% capacity after 160,000 miles. This is just proof that Tesla will never be successful, and there's no reason for us to keep talking about them.
Tesla. Is. Dead.
(Did I hit all of the hater points, or did I miss one or two?)
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
And worse, why do Dell laptop batteries die so suddenly? We setup Dell Command Power Manager to not charge batteries above 80% to increase life, but we still have so many batteries die in less than two years. We have an IT guy that travels between our offices, and I think nearly half of his time is spent on troubleshooting and replacing batteries. Worse now is that the internal Dell batteries are expanding and breaking cases now.
Laptop batteries are kept fully charged, right next to the hottest components in the system.
It's like they are designed to degrade the life of the high margin consumable part of the product you can usually only buy from the manufacturer due to its proprietary design..
The last battery we bought from Dell was for a Precision 5520 bought new last July. We paid $325 for it. Apparently Dell considers batteries to be profitable so they're not going to do anything that increases their life.
Hint: Tesla owners didn't collect this data for you. They collected it for themselves.
No matter how kind you are, German children are kinder.
1) Laptop batteries are designed for energy density, not longevity. There are tradeoffs in chemistry selection.
2) They're not climate controlled. Just the opposite, they're right next to a source of heat.
3) They go through deeper cycles, over a wider portion of the SoC range.
4) They have no redundancy / cell bypass
5) They're designed for a product with a pre-determined expected lifespan of only a few years, so they have no incentive to do better.
You can design to any spec, if you're willing to accept the tradeoffs.
No matter how kind you are, German children are kinder.
Since most cars are junked before 250k miles, and virtually all are before 500k miles, this means that Telsa battery packs ought to outlast the car. It'll be interesting to see what can be done with the resulting cheap secondhand battery packs. OTOH, maybe Telsas will last longer than ICE cars. They have hardly any moving parts compared to ICE cars - even the brakes don't wear out because most braking energy goes back into the battery pack. Esp. the Models S and X, which are made out of aluminum and so won't rust. I've yet to hear of a Model S dying from old age. (Just got my long-awaited invite to order my Model 3. Yay!)
"Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff."
Tesla batteries have an eight year warranty. Tell us another one.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Tesla batteries last in part because of the advanced temperature control. They are kept warm in the winter, and cooled when you are flooring it, hot lithium batteries don't last long and cold ones don't perform well till they warm up. That's why the leaf is bad in some situations as a very cold or hot pack hurts performance and lifetime accordingly. A second strategy is to not fully charge or discharge them, using only a fraction of the battery pack capacity. This also extends life quite a bit and is used by virtually all electric car manufacturers. Here is a good article on a particular cell the tesla uses. Tesla, like several others, use cells that are more robust to abuse with a long life at the expense of actual capacity at high discharge rates, but it's a good tradeoff price wise even though the cells are more expansive. Not covered here is the long term stability of the cells as not a function of cycles but one of cycles and time. Just like any battery they age even if not used. You may get a whopping 35 thousand charges if you go from 80% to 20% capacity but that's not the case if you wait 10 years and store the battery properly. So take this article with a grain of salt because it does not have an actual time component other than couple of years it takes to get the data. These cells haven't been around 20 years so one needs to extrapolate and guess as to the actual long term viability.
How long did it take to get that many miles ? Not a really good metric. They need to quantify how long it took to get to that mileage, or how many recharge cycles that encompassed. If I drove 20k miles per year, or 40k miles per year, it makes a huge difference.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Just got one of these about week ago, amazing machine. A guy can drive by in a new tesla, nobody would notice... ride one of these people gawk... even the ones driving $100,000 wheels.... bloody annoying. https://www.voltbike.ca/voltbi...
[($)]
Looks more like a web forum discussion. I have to admit, I was initially expecting another “internal”memo - Tesla’s PR wing has been working overtime to change the tone of the overall public discussion lately.
In any case, it’s not really news that the batteries of pretty much *all* EVs and Hybrids have lasted longer than was initially estimated, even before Tesla was a thing. So I’m not sure why this is particularly noteworthy. However it’s good news for Tesla owners, for sure.
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My "daily driver", you insensitive clod!
And my Gas tank still has 100% capacity after 160,000 miles.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
That sounds a little cultish. Are these people the 21st centuries' Airstream owners?
As an electrical engineer, this made me dumber.
And worse, why do Dell laptop batteries die so suddenly?
The number one battery killer is heat. The absolute worst place to have a laptop battery is inside a laptop next to 50 watts of space heating. Cooking a battery at temperatures above 100 degrees Fahrenheit will destroy it quickly even if it is not being actively used. That is why laptop and phone batteries don't last very long. Car batteries on the other hand are actively cooled to prevent damage to the battery, and they are not subjected to external heating from other system components.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Gee, I can't imagine why owners would want to collect data to determine how long they can expect their batteries to last. It's just beyond comprehension.
No matter how kind you are, German children are kinder.
The Tesla batteries last longest because they are actively cooled (and heated in cold weather) when charging. That's the magic key to keeping the batteries from going bad, and not being impacted why charging at high kws. That's the reason why leaf's are damaged by frequent high voltage/amperage charging. It's tesla's magic feature, and it's a major piece of tech that up to now at least their competitors haven't build. I suppose the new porsche that will take 400kw charging must have a cooling and heating system, or the batteries would be quickly destroyed.
Some laptop manufacturers are a bit crap.
I finally abandoned my eee 900 after a decade of use. It was still getting about an hour of charge on the original battery (down from 3.5 hrs). Not bad for 10 years old. My current W510 rocking in at 8 years old, well, that battery was never long lasting in the first place, barely an hour (IIRC, maybe less!), and is now measured at about 10 minutes.
I get some degradation due to the properties you listed, but 5 minutes of use after 2-3 years is really terrible.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
They used to have an 80% charge option on older laptops, which was mysteriously removed from newer ones.
Fortunately there are still plenty of good laptops that don't have the battery glued in so you can replace it easily. Good ones don't need the battery to even be installed just to get maximum performance (like Macbooks do), so you can take it out and extend its life greatly by avoiding the heating/cooling cycles it experiences when installed but not used.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Every Dell laptop I've seen from Inspirons to XPS have that option not only in Windows software (Dell Power) but in the UEFI as well so it works in any OS. They use their own special-sauce EC in their laptops for this, among other interesting things.
IMNSHO, Tesla should start making after-market replacement batteries for the existing crop of hybrids, etc. Let's face it, most people aren't going to be trading "up" to a Tesla anytime soon. And while I understand their likely preference for a modularized battery, it seems like if they have better tech they could come up with something.
The axiomatic truism still holds - "Cheaper, Better, Faster, - you can only pick two"
Life is not for the lazy.
My 18 years old Camry has 100% full tank once I fill it up
This article doesn't say under what conditions these estimates were achieved.
How will an EV be in a subzero climate?
I am impressed by the mileage numbers. But How can the Batteries and the rest of an Electric Vehicles' components be expected
to hold up over the long time?
I think it matters whether those 160,000 miles are due to frequent driving OR if those 160k miles are spread out over a long period of time.
Suppose I consider getting a model 3 versus and a recent Toyota gasoline model.
With an intention of keeping the car for at least 15 years. HOWEVER, In any case, I am concerned
about what the total and average annual maintenance costs will be over that period --- I expect to
replace SOME components over the life of my car, but nothing generally costing more than $500 in parts and labor in a year;
assuming the car doesn't get into a wreck.
For the traditional Gasoline car I expect ~$400 to $500/Year in maintenance non-fuel costs average for about 11000 miles a year over almost the entire life of the car --- mostly due to oil/fluids changes and occasional replacement of the starter battery, brake pads, belts, filters, etc, with very few deviations that are generally all minor.
If I keep a Tesla for 15 years; can I expect that kind of longevity, and a comparatively good deal on maintenance throughout the life of the car?
What information is out there to say how the battery pack should hold up for a Tesla?
Can it be expected to still retain 80% of its original capacity after 15 years?
Are there any parts on the Tesla vehicles that will likely require expensive maintenance or replacements?
almost correct
but 1. is bullshit (you could try googling before you post shit): http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev
"The cost of an EV battery has come down to about $350/kWh, but Tesla managed to lower the price to $250/kWh using the 18650, a popular cell of which 2.5 billion were made in 2013. The 18650 in the current Tesla models is an unlikely choice as the cell was designed for portable devices such as laptops. Available since the early 1990s, the 18650 cell is readily available at a low cost. The cylindrical cell-design further offers superior stability over the prismatic and pouch cell, but the advantage may not hold forever as prismatic and pouch cells are improving. Large Li-ion cells are relatively new and have the potential for higher capacities and lower pack-cost as fewer cells are needed."
The Model S/X battery packs are 'overbuilt' in comparison to cheaper BEVs. When new, the BMS never completely discharges(and may never completely charge) the cells to help preserve them. Don't expect the Model 3 battery packs to last as long since it's a less expensive vehicle. It's also the reason Tesla made sure to state warranty for the battery pack in Model 3 only applies if the battery pack loses over 70% of its capacity with in the warranty period. Of course, who knows what entity may be around to service that warranty in a few years.
An electric car, sitting out in the sun on hot asphalt, will easily be over 120 deg F.
You know you can have basically any battery chemistry you want inside an 18650 cell FORMAT? Tesla uses its own proprietary chemistry inside a cell that has the dimensions 18mmx65mm... which was a size made to fit laptops and other portable devices.
But no, 1) is not bullshit.