Nikola (Motors) is Suing Tesla (engadget.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: Nikola Tesla invented alternating electrical current. Nikola Motors is a mobility company working on a hydrogen-powered semi truck. Tesla makes fully electric vehicles and last December unveiled its EV Semi. Nikola Motors is suing Tesla Motors over patent infringements, according to Electrek. Nikola alleges that Tesla infringes on three of its patents: fuselage design, a wraparound windshield on a semi truck and a mid-entry door. Nikola claims that these design similarities have "caused confusion" among customers and stolen away over $2 billion in business, and that if problems arise with Tesla's Semi (like battery fires or glitches with autonomous driving), they'll be attributed to Nikola. Typical patent troll stuff.

Comments

Patent Trolls

[Oswald McWeany]

I'm not sure what the laws on the books are for frivolous patent troll lawsuits, but it would be really beneficial to society if frivolous patent law suits were heavily discouraged by huge fines to the troll perpetrating them.

There is obviously a valid and just use for patents; but there is so much abuse of the system it is ludicrous.

Re:Patent Trolls

[bobbied]

Loosing party pays for civil suits would fix this quick.

It would stop ambulance chasing PE lawyers and those chasing medical malpractice suits too.

Loosing party pays, means that if you file and lose your lawsuit, you get to pay the winner's legal fees, along with any ordered compensation for damages. It also means that if you win, your legal fees are repaid.

Of course, the legal profession in this country soundly opposes this idea, so it's not happening.

Re:Patent Trolls

[SlaveToTheGrind]

The term "patent troll" typically describes a patentholder who is not actually practicing the patent but simply trying to monetize it.

Nikola has been actively developing its electric and hydrogen powered semi trucks for several years now and is targeting its first commercial sales next year. The complaint alleges that Tesla first tried to poach Nikola's chief design engineer, and then simply copied Nikola's patented design.

That doesn't strike me as being even close to a typical "patent troll" scenario.

Re:Patent Trolls

[DarkOx]

Looser pays as blanket rule places to much risk on "little people" being able to sue the well to do.

Joe SixPack highers a perfectly competent but not rock star attorney who charges reasonable rates. Wants to sue oh lets say for fun Donald John Trump Development Corporation. Lets also suppose its a legitimate not so clear cut legal question or contract dispute. DJTDC has a fixed legal staff with time on their hands and every incentive to make the case take as long as possible and explore ever legal avenue and option no matter how absurd; you think its fair to stick Joe with ALL of those costs no matter what unless he wins?

Sure frivolous suits are frivolous, which is why you can counter sue for Barratry and recover your costs and in some localities a judge may simple rule the loser should pay court costs if he/she feels the case was without merit. The system as fair as far as civil suits go. There are problems with patent law for sure but don't assume the rest of the legal system is as broken or a lot of really smart people have not already considered the options, and set things up the way they did for solid reasons.

Re:Patent Trolls

[whoever57]

"Loser pays" doesn't have to be set up that "Rock Star" attorneys are paid their full rates. In fact, in the UK, where this exists, I think it happens some times that the loser only has to pay legal aid rates.

Also, the definition of "loser" isn't so simple as one might think. In the UK, if the defendant offers to settle the case for a certain amount of money and actually pays this money into escrow, then the loser is defined by whether the judge awarded an amount that was larger or smaller than the settlement offer.

Re:Patent Trolls

[rahvin112]

These are design patents, basically how the truck looks.

There are only so many ways you can shape a semi-truck that accommodates the wind pressures in the most effective way. Look around at any modern (built in the last decade) truck, they all look the same for a reason.

Personally having looked at the Tesla and Nicola pictures I think the trucks don't look anything alike when you account for the things that have to be the same (which also match all the diesel trucks being built right now).

If Nicola's design patents cover these items they are covering design elements that have been in use for decades on all the other trucks out there and will clearly be invalid. If they cover the unique design elements that make their design different than every other truck on the road out there I see little similarity between Nicola and Tesla.

Ultimately the company is upset for two reasons, poaching employees (whaaaaa, baby want a bottle), and the fact that Tesla is stealing all the big clients with a big rig that's better designed, isn't tied to Hydrogen and will be cheaper to run and operate using known and proven technology. Nicola on the other hand has a truck that can only be refueled in 3 places, has fuel costs that are higher than diesel, is using fuel cells with unknown life spans and who knows what maintenance costs.

They're upset they picked the wrong horse with hydrogen and want to stop Tesla so they can try to get more sales. It's just marketing by lawyer and I hope Tesla stomps them in court.

Re:Patent Trolls

[Kaenneth]

My usual suggestion is the loser pays is capped at the *lesser* amount that the parties paid for defense/offense.

Re:Patent Trolls

[The Grim Reefer]

My usual suggestion is the loser pays is capped at the *lesser* amount that the parties paid for defense/offense.

I'd go a step further and would like to see the amount of money that either side can spend be capped as well. Or at least capped, to a reasonable amount, in relation to what the non corporation can spend. Depending on the patent it may very well be worth it for a large corporation to throw millions of dollars at a individual knowing that they will only recoup, say $20K, in legal fees when they will make hundreds of millions off of a patent. If a corporation needs to spend $50K for each dollar an individual spends to defend a patent, then they don't have much of a case.

Re:Patent Trolls

[srmalloy]

Nikola Motors should be worried about prior-art claims, given examples, like the MAN Concept S that was exhibited at the IAA show in Hanover in 2010; both the Nikola and Tesla designs look significantly derivative of MAN's work. And that was just from a casual Google search. If there wasn't so much prior art out there already, I'd patent 'filing lawsuits for outrageous damages using questionable patents to attempt to extract funding from competitor or cripple them as a competitor' as a business-model patent.

Re:Patent Trolls

[angel'o'sphere]

This is a german article: http://www.miles-styles.com/lu...
But look at the pictures and google for Luigi Colani, those design studies are 50 years old or older.

Nikola will have bad luck with prior art.

Re:Patent Trolls

[rahvin112]

Look at pictures of the two trucks. The Tesla clearly has pillars between the side windows and windshield, they are just black and glossy to make them look more like glass.

The Nicola design wraps the glass around onto the side then has the pillar a foot back from the windshield.

In this case and all the other claims the Tesla and the Nicola look nothing alike. They are both an evolution of the standard truck designs from the last 10 years. Both trucks look more like some concept designs from 20 years ago than they look like each other.

https://electrek.co/2018/03/16...

https://www.trucks.com/2016/12...

Look at the pictures in the two links and tell me they look the same. Besides the windshield differences the Tesla has no grill and what looks like frunk like hood, the Nicola has a huge grill. The Tesla has vertically oriented lights, the Nicola has horizontally oriented lights.

The Tesla has wind shields over the front wheels that extend back to the back of the cab creating an air channel from front to back. The Nicola wind shields over the wheels have a conventional profile tying out without the channelization but these shields also have a second big grill under the headlights.

The Nicola has thick arms with a slot supporting the side mirrors, Tesla has a thinner single blade arm supporting the side mirrors. The Nicola side mirrors are rectangular with rounded corners, the Tesla mirrors are tapered at the top with almost a rounded triangular shape on the top.

The Driver in the Tesla is centered in the cab, the Nicola uses a standard Left/Right side driver seat. Etc, Etc, Etc.

These two trucks look NOTHING alike once you discount the similarities to actually be a semi truck. Semi trucks have to be certain sizes width and length, have a defined profile and shape that fits the wind profile. They have to match the standard trailers in the industry and have the standard type, size and spacing of tires. The Diesel Semi-trucks you can buy right now from vendors like Volvo, International and others look very similar.

The lawsuit is a joke, you have to wonder if it's an attempt to get purchased by Tesla because Tesla is doing so much better and Nicola bet on Hydrogen being a viable fuel by now and it's not, the trucks aren't in production and costs of production and hydrogen will likely preclude any serious sales once Nicola actually starts producing trucks if they ever do.

Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The patents may or may not be valid, but it is wrong to call Nikola a "patent troll". Patent trolls produce no product and are only a scam to collect money thru the courts. Nikola definitely has a business in this market segment. Please update the post and remove this line.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[sabri]

Exactly. This is not a case of a patent troll. In this case, there is a company actually working on something, and Tesla has been poaching their employees. From the article:

Nikola unveiled its hydrogen-powered semi in December 2016. Elon Musk first showed off the Tesla Semi last December. Once you start looking at the drawings in Nikola's patents, or compare photos of concept vehicles, you'll see that there are some similarities between the trucks. Nikola also alleges that Tesla reached out to poach an employee and doesn't hold any patents for its truck design compared to Nikola's half-dozen.

This is not a patent troll. This is a company who is competing with Tesla.

And I'm not saying that they are right and will win the case.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[ColdWetDog]

These are Design Patents (think Coke Bottle). While perfectly valid legal entities, I think the term 'patent' is a bit of misnomer. More of a trademark kind of thing.

Still, something to get lawyers all hot and bothered about.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[DontBeAMoran]

Tesla has electric cars powered by DC batteries.

Nikola has alternative fuel vehicles.

Just to confuse the hell out of everyone, someone needs to start an AC-powered car company called Edison.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla's motors run on AC juice. The DC from the battery is converted to AC to drive induction motors, something a guy called Nicola Tesla designed a lot of years ago.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[Type44Q]

This is clearly a patent troll masquerading as Tesla's competition.

Re:DNC is suing Moscow Donald's crime family

[David_Hart]

Lets talk about how the DNC hack was an inside job. Hmm, I wonder if anyone remembers that part where file metadata showed the mail dump was copied from the server to a USB drive.

No? Don't remember who Seth Rich is?

Ok, lets circle jerk to the left's favorite conspiracy theory instead.

For those not up to speed on the latest conspiracy theories, it's been alleged that the DNC hack was an inside job. One of the "facts" supporting this theory is that the files were being transferred at 22.7 MB/s (based on file timestamps) faster than what could reasonably be expected over a standard internet connection at the time. However, it completely ignores the possibilities that there was fast internet available at the time, the ability to download multiple files to multiple computers (i.e. like a botnet), and the possibility that the files were downloaded to one computer, copied to a USB, then copied to another computer for upload. In other words, this "fact" doesn't prove anything.

In fact, since the release of this theory, a number of the original "authors" (which include former NSA experts) have since backtracked...

http://thehill.com/policy/cybe...

https://www.washingtonpost.com...
 

Re:It's not frivolous.

[Type44Q]

How about a gas-powered car called the Volt?

Re:It's not frivolous.

[sl3xd]

Design patents are always interesting, though, since Juries decide if it looks close enough to be violating the patent.

TFA's picture comparison is... well, dubious. If you ask me, the Nikola One looks a lot more like the bastard child of a Mistubishi Fuso and a Volvo Semi truck.

Nikola's model definitely looks more like Thor Trucks' model.

Honestly, I think the lawsuit is primarily to get PR. I had no idea they existed until today, so they've succeeded.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[DontBeAMoran]

Hey you, stop trying to introduce solid facts into my lame attempt at a weak joke.

Re: It's not frivolous.

[edris90]

Metal hydride storage. That has been solved for over a decade.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[jcr]

Nikola's not using metal tanks. This 2018. The tanks are carbon fiber, with a polymer lining (not sure what the composition of that is), they contain pressurized, not liquid H2 and they operate at 10K PSI. The fact that we don't need massive metal tanks anymore is one of the things that makes their product possible.

-jcr

Re:It's not frivolous.

[rogoshen1]

only if their mascot is an elephant in the throes of anguish and agony.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[MightyYar]

Not as confusing as the Spark being gasoline powered. A reasonable person would expect it to follow in the footsteps of the other electrically-named cars.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[TomGreenhaw]

I don't agree. The Tesla vehicles have quite a bit of novel technology.

To the best of my knowledge they were the first auto maker to mass market:
+ the combination of lithium ion batteries and supercapacitors for their energy storage strategy
+ rely heavily on frequent over the air software updates to effect continuous improvement
+ sell directly to consumers with a more eCommerce centric model
+ a business model that generates a demand for an all electric vehicle that far outstrips production capacity

The list goes on and on.

You don't have to be a fan boy to realize that anybody who thinks Tesla is not innovative is either ill informed or a misinformation spewing bot trying to protect the last gasp of the climate destructive fossil fuel industry.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[haruchai]

Who did they "poach"? The one employee who knows how to draw a truck?
If you read the Electrek article you'll see designs for similar alternative fuel trucks going back years or decades.

Tesla has at least 2 working trucks and they've been seen hundreds of miles away from the factories, running freight between Sparks & Fremont, broken down by the side of the road or plugged into a SuperCharger.
What does Nikola have to show after all these years?

Re: It's not frivolous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't even get me started on the motherfucking Fusion... what a letdown

Re:It's not frivolous.

[Lab Rat Jason]

Google: Con-Edison.

Re:It's not frivolous.

[sl3xd]

I seem to recall hearing it’s a variant of a frequently used marketing con: do whatever you have to do to attach your name to a competitor’s, in order to get publicity.

For example, renaming your company to be the first name of Nikola Tesla, and then suing the familiar “Tesla” motor company for patent infringement.

Just let the news media gobble it up, drop the lawsuit, and pat yourself on the back for saving a few million dollars in advertising.

Re: It's not frivolous.

[MightyYar]

Yeah, it's a terrible name for a terrible car. It's like calling one the "squeak".