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UK Car Industry On Alert Over Reports Some Hybrids Face a Ban (bbc.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the BBC: The UK's car industry has hit out at the government over unconfirmed reports ministers will target hybrid vehicles as part of a new emissions crackdown. New cars unable to do at least 50 miles on electric power may be banned by 2040, a ruling that would hit the UK's best-selling hybrid, Toyota's Prius. The SMMT car trade body said "misleading" government messages were damaging the industry and hitting jobs. In a short statement, the Department for Transport denied plans for a ban.
The Financial Times and Autocar said that the government's Road to Zero car emissions strategy was due to be unveiled imminently. It follows last year's announcement by the government that it would ban the sale of all new diesel and petrol cars in the UK by 2040. But the position on electrified models was unclear, and Road to Zero is due to clarify the situation. The FT and Autocar reported that vehicles which could not travel at least 50 miles using only electric power would be outlawed. "Unrealistic targets and misleading messaging on bans will only undermine our efforts to realize this future, confusing consumers and wreaking havoc on the new car market and the thousands of jobs it supports," said Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. "We cannot support ambition levels which do not appreciate how industry, the consumer or the market operate and which are based neither on fact nor substance. Consumers need clear information about the right vehicles for their driving needs and it is again disappointing for both industry and consumers that vitally important information about government policy is being communicated by leaks."
The Financial Times and Autocar said that the government's Road to Zero car emissions strategy was due to be unveiled imminently. It follows last year's announcement by the government that it would ban the sale of all new diesel and petrol cars in the UK by 2040. But the position on electrified models was unclear, and Road to Zero is due to clarify the situation. The FT and Autocar reported that vehicles which could not travel at least 50 miles using only electric power would be outlawed. "Unrealistic targets and misleading messaging on bans will only undermine our efforts to realize this future, confusing consumers and wreaking havoc on the new car market and the thousands of jobs it supports," said Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. "We cannot support ambition levels which do not appreciate how industry, the consumer or the market operate and which are based neither on fact nor substance. Consumers need clear information about the right vehicles for their driving needs and it is again disappointing for both industry and consumers that vitally important information about government policy is being communicated by leaks."
Politicians love to pass feel good laws for their successors to ignore. If it's effective date is after the next election, it's just posing.
This is simple: Either batteries 'moore's' law analog will holdup and battery powered cars will win on the market, or it won't and this law will be ignored. In either case, this law is an ass.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
So banning cars that can't do 50 miles all electric over twenty years from now is unrealistic and damaging for the industry now? That makes no sense. Perhaps if they were going to ban existing cars that can't do 50 miles all-electric in twenty years, then people would be just starting to think about that, as some cars last that long, but on average cars only last ten years. But that's not what they're talking about. The article clearly says it's for new vehicles.
I doubt making changes in requirements for cars in ten years would be a problem. Most cars get a major refresh every five years or less, so there's plenty of time for manufacturers to adjust.
Sure, the Prius is horrible as a plug-in hybrid, as it doesn't do a decent job of running all-electric (or so I've heard), but Toyota has decades to fix that.
This proposed rule looks to be more descriptive than proscriptive. Does anyone really expect any manufacturer will still be selling vehicles for general use in twenty years that aren't at least mostly electric? That's not what the manufacturers themselves are saying. At the rate things are shifting, I doubt there will be many cars with tailpipes being sold new by 2030, let alone 2040 (but I'm an optimist).
The current Plug-in Prius already can do 50 km (30 miles) on an electric charge. If battery technology improves or Toyota is willing to accept a bit more weight for a larger battery, they can match the new requirements. And they have another 22 years to get there.
C - the footgun of programming languages
There are a lot of rural areas in the U.K., too. Sure, I can see a ban on private vehicles in areas with congestion issues. They could eliminate all urban parking entirely that way, which would allow for some really nice changes. Most urban dwellers won't likely need their own vehicles.
But there's no need to ban private vehicle ownership altogether.
Sure there is: Control.
People not utterly dependant on government just don't 'love the state' enough. They have a plan to fix that.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
By the time 2040 rolls around, two or three sets of batteries from your car will be leaking chemicals in a landfill.
It just NEW cars.
Indeed. TFA makes it sound like they are going to confiscate cars. The proposed ban is only on sales of NEW cars, and since the effective date is 22 years from now, it should be of no concern to anyone making or buying a car today.
Car batteries are almost 100% recyclable.
However due to the cost of doing it in comparison to just digging more lithium out of the ground they don't bother.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
If so, someone probably broke the law. These particular batteries are in categories that require proper disposal which will in general always end up somewhere other than in a landfill. Recycling them is not difficult.
They don't get consumed by the age. All of the original elements are still there, they've just moved into physical and chemical configurations that have reduced the charge they can hold.
More importantly though, a battery that can still hold an 80% or even a 50% charge has other applications that could multiply its useful lifetime. Once enough used ones become available, someone will figure out that they can do things like build cheap household or utility-scale backups from them. They won't be as compact as units using all fresh batteries, but they will be in an application where that is no longer important.
it should be of no concern to anyone making or buying a car today.
That's putting your head in the sand. 100 years ago, the same was said about Hong Kong coming back under Chinese control. In the end, it is bad legislation that will affect people.
/. know about my aversion against that Orwellian Police State anyway.
In other news: the U.K. is passing laws that the space industry must support interstellar travel by 2040, or be banned from entering the U.K.
Those stupid politicians need to understand that innovation cannot be legislated. But then again, frequent readers on
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
That's the _dumbest_ thing posted on the net in the past decade.
Seriously: Disproven by one example. You can't you think of one? Try harder.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
... and you just showed your ignorance.
There isn't actually much Lithium in a Lithium-ion battery. In a Tesla, for example, there is somewhere around 10kg total in the battery pack.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
An electric car should be able to recharge using solar panels and thermoelectric systems. The number of times, we've parked our car in a supermarket parking lot and we come back to find the metalwork burning hot.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
12 years from now gives a long time for automakers to catch up...
Cars getting more expensive is the only thing the government has done... And making cars more expensive only reduces people's quality of life as they become less able to travel, or are forced to spend more on travel they have no choice about.
Cars are arguably worse for the environment after government regulation... They regulated the amount of CO2 but not other emissions, the end result has been lots of diesel vehicles which emit little CO2 and plenty of other more harmful chemicals. Now they are starting to realise the mistake, but there are millions of diesel vehicles on european roads now.
Cars getting more fuel efficient and safer never needed government regulation, car manufacturers are doing this on their own. People actually want to buy cars which are safer and use less fuel.
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You could put a windmill on top of the car and use that to recharge the batteries as you roll down the road... /sarc
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
We should probably regulate the disposal of car batteries so they don't go into land fills.
You know like we've done with lead acid batteries found in nearly every current automobile.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
50 miles electric range is trivial to implement TODAY, zero innovation required.
Several countries are planning zero emission requirements 10-15 years earlier than the UK proposal for 50 miles electric range.
By 2040 it will be difficult to find a new car with a combustion engine anyway, regardless of that the UK government does.
---- Sig. gone.
Defend your stupidity. Perfect!
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
A car that's only existed less than 21 years would be banned in 22 years from now, unless it can extend its electric only range from 11 miles to 50 miles.
That's a huge ask for Toyota to be able to push their technology that much.
Wait... that 11 miles it the first gen plug in hybrid. Their second generation does 25 miles. I think they might be able to hit 50 miles by 2040.
I know, right!
They should make the body out of solar panels!
That's got to be at least 7 square metres of area facing the sun. In the middle of the day, that's about 7kW of energy they're pissing away.
The Prius PIH has an 8.8kW battery that gives it 25 miles range, 350Whr per mile. With 21% efficacy panels, that's about 1.5kW of power, or 4 miles range per hour.
You could drive 5 miles to the movies, park in the sun, watch your movie, drive home, and by the time you get back, your battery has the same charge as when you left.
You could also look at it as extending the range by 10%. More if you're stuck in slow traffic.
Many European countries are closing in on "fake-hybrids". If you care about electrification of cars this is a good thing. People were/are buying expensive hybrid (sport) cars with tax incentives but never bothered to charge the batteries or use the cars properly. The Netherlands cancelled hybrid tax incentives. In Belgium, in order to be classified as a hybrid, they introduced a minimum battery/weight ratio starting from 01-01-2018. Other EU countries have similar plans. Here in Belgium the Porsche E-Hybrids and BMW edrive models were very popular. For 2018 those sales will plummet. Hopefully the car manufacturers will update their hybrid models and increase the battery packs.
50 miles electric range is trivial to implement TODAY, zero innovation required.
I agree with you on that, Tesla can do 400 miles.
But that is irrelevant to my complaint. My issue is that the U.K. (or any) government does not get to dictate how motor companies choose to innovate. What if by 2025 Nikola Motors' fuel cell technology gets adopted by the industry?
By 2040 it will be difficult to find a new car with a combustion engine anyway, regardless of that the UK government does.
Yes, so you agree with me that this law is irrelevant anyway. Indeed. This is one of those laws, made up by pink-sunglassed greenies looking to find another reason to masturbate in the mirror. "Oh look what a great law I passed today *fapfapfap*". But in the end, they accomplished nothing.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Cars getting more expensive is the only thing the government has done...
Maybe your government. On this side of the pond, our government has been pushing safety standards forward. Sure, lots of what we find annoying about modern cars is due to those improved safety standards... but the cars have become more safe. You can't say that's not a benefit.
Cars are arguably worse for the environment after government regulation... They regulated the amount of CO2 but not other emissions, the end result has been lots of diesel vehicles which emit little CO2 and plenty of other more harmful chemicals. Now they are starting to realise the mistake, but there are millions of diesel vehicles on european roads now.
Yes, that's another place Europe should have followed America's example. We regulate diesels the same as gassers, for passenger vehicles. End result, our diesels are cleaner. Sure, we have less of them, but that's not a problem, right?
Cars getting more fuel efficient and safer never needed government regulation, car manufacturers are doing this on their own.
False. They have been doing it due to pressure from the US and Japan.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Car batteries are almost 100% recyclable.
Traditional flooded lead-acid car batteries are basically 100% recyclable, except for the labels. Even the chemistry is recycled.
EV batteries are not very recyclable. You can get most of the steel, all of the cobalt and most of the lithium, but the electrolyte is mostly neutralized and then incinerated or landfilled. They contain sealants and adhesives which cannot be recycled at all.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
An electric car should be able to recharge using solar panels and thermoelectric systems. The number of times, we've parked our car in a supermarket parking lot and we come back to find the metalwork burning hot.
A really, really good [automotive] rooftop solar panel produces about 350W. Don't even ask about thermoelectric, because that's even less realistic.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
https://seekingalpha.com/artic...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Batteries are already good enough. It's just a question of time until prices come down even further and infrastructure gets built up.
Even if the government didn't set this target, by 2040 most cars on the market would be EVs anyway. The target just signals we won't be that far behind the rest of Europe and that infrastructure investments enjoy some government backing.
That's why it won't be abandoned. People with money will invest, and they won't allow their bought and paid for politicians to screw them.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Ultimately people commit the murders, though. It doesn't take many psychopaths for it to be a problem, but we've also all heard of Milikan.
Most European cars exceed the minimum safety standards, which suggests that it is consumer demand, not government.
They regulated the amount of CO2 but not other emissions, the end result has been lots of diesel vehicles which emit little CO2 and plenty of other more harmful chemicals.
This is not true. For one, catalytic convertors were mandated. Secondly, diesels were also regulated, but particulates have been determined to be more damaging than realised, and a number of new regulations are being introduced across Europe.
Cleaner on NOx and PM, but not CO (leaving aside CO2), but I suspect that European cars will soon match the USA, as most new diesels in Europe already exceed newly proposed European standards. Whether that will mean they will comply with USA standards, I do not know. Europe tends to have more frequent inspection of existing cars, so the emission profile in any given year might vary from official targets.
"What if by 2025 Nikola Motors' fuel cell technology gets adopted by the industry?"
Then there will be more electric cars. I didn't see anything stipulating the source of the electricity.
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
A 50% capacity battery, sold cheaply enough, would be great for backing up PV.
My issue is that the U.K. (or any) government does not get to dictate how motor companies choose to innovate.
The people of the UK, through the actions of their Government, do however get to dictate which technologies are not permitted to be sold in their country.
If a car company doesn't wish to "innovate" by putting a 51 mile range battery in with the combustion engine then nobody will give a shit. They just wont be able to sell cars in the UK.
What if by 2025 Nikola Motors' fuel cell technology gets adopted by the industry?
Without seeing the wording of the law it's not yet possible to tell whether that engine would be allowed in 2040 or not. If not, there would still be plenty of time to update and modify the law.
But in the end, they accomplished nothing
Laws on agricultural use of pesticides and other chemicals have had a material impact on the quality of food.
Laws on emissions from cars have had a material impact on air quality.
Taxes (enabled by laws) have had a massive impact on car fuel economy.
Subsidies (enabled by laws) have been essential to companies like Tesla.
Why would laws suddenly stop working on this occasion?
Cars getting more expensive is the only thing the government has done
In the last ten years average wages in the UK have risen 17%
The price of new cars has dropped over 5%
-- https://www.racfoundation.org/...
If only the Government made everything that much more expensive.
We're talking about the UK here. The sun does appear occasionally but on average a car roof solar panel isn't going to do much more than power the radio. If that.
Thing is they are only banning hybrids not capable of doing 50 miles on battery. The Prius can do 30 miles right now. The idea that in the next 22 years battery capacity will not have improved 60% is frankly ludicrous. In the last 22 years they have improved an awful lot more than that, and there a whole slew of battery technology innovations in the pipeline any one of which would provide the additional capacity required.
There is a long history in of needing to set targets to drive manufactures to innovate and sometimes even just implement existing technology.
This law could still be rubbish even with much better batteries. German car manufacturers are asking that the laws should rather regulate total carbon footprint or the efficiency of the whole progress, instead of enforcing which technology is chosen. Other ways can be more efficient than electric cars.
This law requires the ban of selling such hybrids by 2040.
There are lots of different models of cars currently sold in 2018 that already have better batteries than that (I'm not only speaking of Tesla, I'm speaking about the Renault, Nissan, VW, Citroen, etc.)
Non plug-in hybrids where an interesting stop-gag measure back at a time when everybody was heavily relying on an existing infastructue/logistics for gaz, when battery were still small, and there was virtually no chargers infrastructure.
But plugin to charge your car's battery while it's not in use is definitely the long term target to go to.
By 2040, probably all car will be able to do well more than 100km at least, with maybe some still featuring gaz-powered range-extenders for the few occasions when people need to drive for prolonged distance without ever seeing a charger. (e.g.: using their cars to drive in remote/backwards area where ubiquitous public chargers aren't yet a thing, the gaz station are still the most common energy delivery, and the user isn't interesting in fork whatever the cost of a 200-200hWh battery will be by then).
The Society of Motor Manufacturer are only panicking because some of their members are realizing that they are left with lots of soon-to-be-dead assets (stock, manufacturing capacity, etc.).
Most sane car manufacturers have started thinking about this for quite some time, and will probably be more-than-ready by 2040.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Wait, so this is an article about a reports that some people are nervous because they heard someone might consider this ban. What? As far as I can tell, and what the UK government has directly confirmed, they aren't even considering such a ban. That's not even considering what a lot of other commentators have pointed out, which is that 20 years is a LOT of time to figure out how to fix it.
Much ado about nothing.
Your not disagreeing, your just wrong that batteries are good enough already.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
So what innovation was lost when leaded gasoline was banned? Your entire line of reasoning here is invalid.
What is this Moore's law of batteries of which you speak? The energy density of any particular battery technology depends only on the laws of physics. There is no Moore's law off batteries.
Having said that, it would be surprising ifs there are no breakthroughs in battery technology in the next twenty years - or alternatives like hydrogen fuel cells.
It's not something that really bothers me though. In 2040, I'll be in my mid 70's and unlikely to be buying a new car, unless it has fully autonomous self driving.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
Did you just wake up from a decade long coma? Man, are you going to be surprised at how the world has changed......
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
They can legislate to stop the pollution from cars etc which this basically is all about. In reality is just a target for the industry to aspire to, if you don't set the target you'll get complacency from the industry.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
private industry just says "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and other such stupid quotes
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)