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US Appeals Court Rules Border Agents Need Suspicion To Search Cellphones (reason.com)

On Thursday, a federal appeals court ruled that U.S. border agents need some sort of reason to believe a traveler has committed a crime before searching their cellphone. Slashdot reader Wrath0fb0b shares an analysis via Reason, written by Fourth Amendment scholar Orin Kerr: Traditionally, searches at the border don't require any suspicion on the theory that the government has a strong sovereign interest in regulating what enters and exits the country. But there is caselaw indicating that some border searches are so invasive that they do require some kind of suspicion. In the new case, Kolsuz (PDF), the Fourth Circuit agrees with the Ninth Circuit that at least some suspicion is required for a forensic search of a cell phone seized at the border. This is important for three reasons. First, the Fourth Circuit requires suspicion for forensic searches of cell phones seized at the border. Second, it clarifies significantly the forensic/manual distinction, which has always been pretty uncertain to me. Third, it leaves open that some suspicion may be required for manual searches, too.

But wait, that's not all. In fact, I don't think it's the most important part of the opinion. The most important part of the opinion comes in a different section, where the Fourth Circuit adds what seems to be a new and important limit on the border search exception: a case-by-case nexus requirement to the government interests that justify the border search exception. Maybe I'm misreading this passage, but it strikes me as doing something quite new and significant. It scrutinizes the border search that occurred to see if the government's cause for searching in this particular case satisfied "a 'nexus' requirement" of showing sufficient connection between the search and "the rationale for the border search exception," requiring a link between the "predicate for the search and the rationale for the border exception." In other words, the Fourth Circuit appears to be requiring the government to identify the border-search-related interest justifying that particular search in order to rely on the border search exception.
"The analysis is interesting throughout, and it would be a fairly large limitation on digital searches conducted at the border, both in requiring some articulable suspicion for digital searches and in the requirement to justify the relationship between the search and the border inspection," writes Wrath0fb0b.

116 comments

  1. Shouldn't that be... by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Shouldn't the headline read:

    "Border Patrol Agents under the Trump Administration Need Suspicion to Search Cell Phones"?

    I mean, everything else is tacked on to the president... why not this?

    1. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Boo hoo, mentally deficient Trump victim defends his obese orange crybaby traitor hero from the bad system of laws that brings him down, news at 11. Get a life Okie faggot.

    2. Re:Shouldn't that be... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Funny

      Shouldn't the headline read:
      "Border Patrol Agents under the Trump Administration Need Suspicion to Search Cell Phones"?

      They already have their suspicions, now they need to be valid and justifiable.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    3. Re: Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Slashdot is 100% anti Trump and trolls. If you can't handle this, go elsewhere. All that's left here is Trump bashing and articles about cutting edge "Al" which have no higher abstraction or complexity than a PID loop. So yes, Trump must go to prison because of his crimes of going against the American bureaucracy.

    4. Re: Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the crystalline entity you insensitive clod.

    5. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Informative

      I mean, everything else is tacked on to the president... why not this?

      right, because you're not the kind of person to pin things on president.

      $ for i in $(grep -ic "obama" slashdot/537106/*.html | sed "s/[^:]\+://")
      > do
      > sum=$(expr ${sum} + ${i})
      > done
      $ echo $sum
      178

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    6. Re:Shouldn't that be... by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "everything else is tacked on to the president... why not this"

      Because the incident that lead to this case took place on February 2, 2016.

      It's almost as if it isn't universal to just blame everything on Trump, as some people actually pay attention to who could be responsible for the policy in question.

    7. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody suspects he fucked his daughter, probably when she was underage. Isn't that enough to search his cell phone?

    8. Re: Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say there, what's your resonance frequency? I'd like to have a little one on one in private.

    9. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump is going to prison either way, sorry snowflake.

    10. Re:Shouldn't that be... by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They already have their suspicions, now they need to be valid and justifiable.

      Oh, I think they'll just say:

      "Being a foreigner wanting to enter the US is a valid and justifiable reason to be suspicious."

      . . . as is, being a US citizen wanting to leave the US is also a valid and justifiable reason to be suspicious. The US is the greatest country in the world! Why would a US citizen want to go to any other country, which are all Hellholes?

      I think the next IRS tax plan will be to "tax foreigners living and working abroad."

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    11. Re:Shouldn't that be... by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      Because the judiciary is a separate branch of government and not part of nor subject to any presidential administration.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    12. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hunch != Suspicion.

      The vast majority of these searches probably occur because the TSA agent "doesn't like" the intended target and this is a handy way to inconvenience and punish people. Mostly this gets used against people that assert their rights or refuse to use the full-body scanners. I remember being at LA airport one time and refusing the scanner only to have the TSA Nazi drag me aside and threaten me with an invasive search, but only after having me wait a loooooonnnng time in the TSA "sin bin". The agent then proceeded to threaten everyone else in the queue with the same treatment if they disobey. These people don't like to be challenged even if they're wrong.

      Turns out the guy performing the search was ex-military - very respectful and very polite. Made the TSA agent look like a total douche.

    13. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you just get woke on this issue because of Trump?

      I ask since Clinton Bush Obama deported millions of people over 24 years, and their customs and border patrol were nasty back then as well.

      Or do you just ignore the bad things that happen when your guy is in power?

      Previous administrations were held hostage, helpless in the face of xenophobic, paranoid, white-supremacist, gun-toting, fascist NRA 2ndA-crazies! -- David Hogg

    14. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody suspects he fucked his daughter, probably when she was underage. Isn't that enough to search his cell phone?

      Wow, creeper alert!

      No, "everybody" does not suspect any such thing.

      However, your post leads one to suspect a search of *your* cellphone might get *you* into a lot of legal trouble!

    15. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The current system has been in place for a few decades, since the courts decided that a suspension of some rights was justified at the border. INS then went further and declared that the effective border region was 100 miles wide, which did not seem to be at all what the courts envisioned. I'd rather the whole thing be rolled back and that anyone inside the borders is granted basic constitutiional rights. Over half of the population of the US lies within that region where the border patrol asserts their privilege to perform warrantless searches.

    16. Re:Shouldn't that be... by onepoint · · Score: 1

      God, I just love when someone proves a point and drops the mic with code !!!

      rock on and live long

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    17. Re: Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a hypocrite in no way, shape, or form, prevents a person from being "woke", the definition of which is to pledge conformity to the party that fought a war to preserve slavery, and which was synonymous with the confederate flag. Fortunately, true affluent white privilege confers to one the ability to pick and choose which facts of history existed or did not exist. White privilege is a farce. Affluent white privilege is the only one that matters. It's still better to be black and rich then poor and white, but the party needs a scapegoat, and you're it if your white and don't conform. Actually, these days, if you're anything and don't conform. And lest you think I'm a Trump minion, I've never voted for a Republican in my life. Very few people voted for Trump, though. They voted against the status-quo. It was a Hail Mary, but how many chances do the people get to choose a non-insider? Not many, so they figured they had to take the risk, because they already knew what they were going to get with Hillary. Of course, the conformist don't understand this. They don't realize the lower-class felt so disenfranchised, that all they could do was vote against the powers-that-be. Those same powers which have convinced you that a vote against the status-quo was an attack on your very livelihood. After all, the status-quo has always served them very well, and most of them have never known a white person it didn't serve well. And so, they continue to belittle the soliders, the farmers, the truck drivers ... narcisissticly unaware that the only reason their lives are so confortable, is because of the sacrifices of these people. So go ahead ... impeach Trump. Lock him up, do whatever you want to. Go ahead and tell the Proletariat that their vote doesn't count. That one way or another, you'll have your way, and you won't take no for an answer. Go for it. Then, one day, when you need somebody to protect you, and you pick up the phone, and ... eh ... I won't ruin it for you. You go ahead. Show those deplorables who's boss. Enjoy!

    18. Re: Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember when liberals were the highly-educated intellectual elite? Now their just highly-educated. "Well he did it first!" is their new rallying cry. Idiocracy is ahead of schedule.

    19. Re:Shouldn't that be... by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

      I think he was being snarky, but many of the other people mentioning the President are probably implying that the current administration's actions have become so egregious that courts are starting to reign in behaviors that have been previously overlooked.

    20. Re: Shouldn't that be... by Memnos · · Score: 1

      You killed my relatives on Omicron Theta, you crystalline bastard. You and Lore must pay.

      --
      I don't trust atoms -- they make up stuff.
    21. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That does not actually work. Anyone with basic linux knowledge should know why.

    22. Re:Shouldn't that be... by thomst · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Okian Warrior complained:

      "everything else is tacked on to the president... why not this"

      Prompting radarskiy to point out:

      Because the incident that lead to this case took place on February 2, 2016.

      It's almost as if it isn't universal to just blame everything on Trump, as some people actually pay attention to who could be responsible for the policy in question.

      Yup.

      And the policy in question goes back to the reaction by the first George W. Bush administration to the 9/11 attacks. In case you've forgotten, every vaguely-law-enforcement-related federal agency (except the FBI, which remains under the aegis of the Justice Department) was consolidated under a new Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security. The new security behemoth was charged with protecting the USA from terrorist threats as its primary mission, and given essentially unlimited power to carry out that mission in pretty much whatever fashion the Director might fancy. (We also got the FBI's Security Letter authority in the same frenzy of shortsighted legislation, so it's not as though the general disregard of constitutional protections was exclusively confined to the DHS. But I digress.)

      Obama gave the continued use of repressive and authoritarian actions - especially against foreign nationals from Middle Eastern and South and Central Asian countries - his blessing, and clamped down hard on whistleblowers from the intelligence intelligence community who spoke out against it, to boot.

      Although I suspect that most of Obama's endorsement of such policies was based on the Daily Intelligence Briefing documents and presentations - which, I should note, Donald Trump notoriously avoids reading or paying attention to, unless they're couched in terms that flatter him (and only if they are heavy on photos and simple, colorful graphics) - which I assume contain information to which you and I are not now, and may never be privy.

      Because Top Secret, Eyes Only is a classification that exists for perfectly valid reasons.

      The thing is, despite what I regard as ill-advised (and largely party-line) endorsements of exceptions to constitutional protections by SCOTUS in the post-9/11 era, they also exist for reasons that are every bit as valid today as they were when the Bill of Rights was first ratified.

      I think the Fourth Circuit's Appeals Court decision was a wise, and overdue, one. It encourages me that it dovetails so neatly with the Sixth's related decisions (because the decisions by the Sixth Circuit court are more frequently overrruled by the Roberts SCOTUS - as well as by the Rhenquist version - than those of any other circuit). It's about damned time the pendulum swung back toward bulwarking constitutionally-guaranteed protections, rather than breaching them still further.

      IMsnHO, anyway ...

      --
      Check out my novel.
    23. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $ for i in $(grep -ic "suck cock" slashdot/934156/*.html | sed "s/[^:]\+://")
      > do
      > sum=$(expr ${sum} + ${i})
      > done
      $ echo $sum
      413

    24. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, why search phones?

      Luggage may contain drugs, weapons or even bombs. Phones are just boring. May contain a pirated movie/song, but it is hard to prove they didn't buy it legally in some foreign country.

    25. Re:Shouldn't that be... by CaffeinatedBacon · · Score: 2

      The US is the greatest country in the world! Why would a US citizen want to go to any other country, which are all Hellholes?

      They are not all hellholes, I think some of them are shitholes instead.

    26. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1

      If you're from one of the "sh_thole country" you're suspicious and search is justifiable.
      Being non-white automatically makes you a suspect.

      --
      ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
    27. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awwww diddums, you need a hug?

  2. Cautiously optimistic by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm cautiously optimistic on this. While it sounds like progress toward restoring our rights at the boarder, I wonder what the definition of "suspicion" is in this case. If it's simply that the boarder agent states that the person looked nervous to them, then I'm not sure if this will make much of a difference in practice. But I didn't read past the summary either.

    1. Re:Cautiously optimistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      BORDER. BORDER.

    2. Re:Cautiously optimistic by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      I wonder what the definition of "suspicion" is in this case.

      In this case, the reasonable suspicious arose from the two bags of firearms they caught they guy trying to smuggle out of the country. From the appellate court's opinion:

      Because the government in this case had “more than reasonable suspicion” that a forensic examination of Kolsuz’s phone would reveal evidence of both past and ongoing attempts to export firearms parts illegally, the court concluded, the forensic search was reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

      Both the lower and appellate courts repeatedly note that this was more than enough to clear the "reasonable suspicion" threshold in this case, and thus there was no need to debate exactly where the threshold might be.

    3. Re:Cautiously optimistic by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      JUST two bags of firearms? In America?

      I get more dangerous things in my breakfast cereal.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Cautiously optimistic by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I'm cautiously optimistic on this. While it sounds like progress toward restoring our rights at the boarder, I wonder what the definition of "suspicion" is in this case.

      If it's anything like the definition of the border (most of the US), then it'll probably be something like "cellphone belongs to a person".

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:Cautiously optimistic by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Sorry. I didn't catch that when my phone auto-completed it. Old eyes and all.

    6. Re:Cautiously optimistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      JUST two bags of firearms? In America?

      I get more dangerous things in my breakfast cereal.

      Then stop buying your breakfast cereal from ebay where the seller ships from China.

    7. Re:Cautiously optimistic by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      You know what would look really suspicious is someone trying to bring illegal information into the country via mobile a phone on a plane with a return flight. This instead of downloading an encrypted file from where ever you wanted to, or smuggling a thumb nail size memory card. It would look very suspiciously like they are a complete moron.

      The reason to search the phone away from the eyes of it's owner, is not to look at the data on the phone it is to add spyware applications to the phone, a permanent online backdoor.

      Travel and I would leave my real phone behind and buy another at the foreign location and use it instead. Really fussy about having you data, I would simply upload the files to my ISP at home and then download them at the foreign location. Coming back, upload the data to your ISP and clear your travel phone before returning and sell it or give it away. There is no logical reason to carry a phone with data across borders, simply makes no sense.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  3. Suspicion shows up... by OpenSourced · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...by the reluctance to spontaneously give the phone to the customs agent.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
  4. Well, at least... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... the border agents will still have the ability to search the phone for someone smuggling small amounts of drugs or other physical contraband in the charger port.

  5. Secure in Person & Papers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For the umpteenth time: Law MUST protect EVERYONE or they are useless.

    Only stupid kuks try to trade other's freedoms for their own security. Too bad Amerika is so overflowing with kuks.

    1. Re:Secure in Person & Papers by gweihir · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actually, laws that are only applied to people those in power do not like are quite useful as means of control and oppression. In fact, that seems to be the original idea behind laws and it is still the main purpose and motivator, even if that part is glossed over today because it is good PR to keep the masses believing something is there to protect _them_. Not so. And, if you are on top, even a police state or full-blown fascism can be a nice place to be in. Hence those in power have no motivation to prevent that from happening either.

      Decisions like this one are always carefully considered and only allowed to be made if they do not actually change anything that matters. They do give the morons a nice opportunity to say "see, the system works!" and thereby generate some free propaganda, which aids nicely in keeping the clueless clueless.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  6. Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Phones need to ship with multiple passwords that store multiple environments.

    Some of these can be "duress" passwords that open the "duress" environment and wipe the content of all others.

    Example:

    Password 123ILoveAmerica opens enivornment 1, the main environment. This is your normal everyday work environment.

    Password 456GoTeamGo opens environment 2, a "show me your papers" environment that looks "normal."

    Password 678TeamAmerica is the duress password, it opens environment 2 and destroys environment 1.

    How to set up a way to manage environments and having a way to make the police officer think you gave him the password to open up the "manage environments" tool is something that will need to be worked out.

    1. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by hduff · · Score: 1

      Phones need to ship with multiple passwords that store multiple environments.

      Some of these can be "duress" passwords that open the "duress" environment and wipe the content of all others.

      Example:

      Password 123ILoveAmerica opens enivornment 1, the main environment. This is your normal everyday work environment.

      Password 456GoTeamGo opens environment 2, a "show me your papers" environment that looks "normal."

      Password 678TeamAmerica is the duress password, it opens environment 2 and destroys environment 1.

      How to set up a way to manage environments and having a way to make the police officer think you gave him the password to open up the "manage environments" tool is something that will need to be worked out.

      I'm surprised this has not already been implemented, but . . . .

      If it is a readily available consumer "product", a threat to kill someone or their family to NOT give the duress password seems likely.

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
    2. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "If it is a readily available consumer "product", a threat to kill someone or their family to NOT give the duress password seems likely."

      First off, professional police in first world countries don't do strong-armed tactics like that. Not routinely anyways. This isn't the 1970s and the United States isn't a country where police corruption is endemic. They might get away with it once but they are under a lot of scrutiny and their luck will run out quickly if they make it a routine practice.

      Second, a duress password is most useful if it can be used without anyone knowing it's not the regular password.

      If the cops in the country I'm coming from have been trailing me and they tip off US border patrol about what they already know is on my phone and I give the agent my duress password he'll know I've given him one of the "alternate" passwords but he won't know if it's the duress one or not until he does a forensic analysis. If I'm entering a country where cops get away with torturing suspects, I shouldn't be surprised if my life becomes miserable.

      On the other hand, if it's just me returning to America and I wasn't previously under suspicion and I've set up my alternate environments so they have pictures of my trip and a one-off email account that has a reasonable normal history and texts from a one-off phone number that are all reasonable for my trip then I can give him the "alternate" or "duress" password and he won't be any the wiser.

      If I really am up to no good of course I will give him my duress password. More likely though I will have destroyed that environment prior to entering the country anyway. There are other, safer methods of getting data across national borders than in a phone's memory.

    3. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can install "Suicide Linux" it'll wipe the storage on the first mistake.

    4. Re: Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work at a FAANG company (one that makes phones that a good chunk of you use)... There are several methods I can employ to make the device unaccessible by CBP, but guess what? If you donâ(TM)t give up the password or otherwise make the device accessible you get thrown in jail for obstruction.

    5. Re: Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inaccessible even :P

    6. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by davidwr · · Score: 1

      Suicide Linux - is that the add-on that auto-corrects all mispellings to

      rm -rf / ; echo LOL

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    7. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      While in general i want to agree with you, yet we still end up with shit like Homan Square.

    8. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Police corruption is endemic in the US. It's just given a veil of legality and called "civil forfeiture."

      They won't say "we'll kill your family." They'll say "we'll take your kids for their own protection, if you don't sign over the cash we found in your car."

    9. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      'Sign over' cash ...? What do you think this the US is, some kind of first world country?

      No. In America, we just seize the cash then file charges against it that can't be defended against without incontrovertible proof it wasn't used in a crime.

    10. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Depends on the case. The Tenaha, TX case (look it up) involved people being coerced into "voluntarily" signing over money or even cars in order not to be robbed of their children by corrupt cops.

    11. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      truecrypt had that, before the TLA's corrupted it

    12. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Highdude702 · · Score: 2

      I would find no choice for myself but to hunt down and kill every cop involved had it happened to me.

    13. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This kind of deception can get you into trouble. A better option is easy and perfect backups. To their credit, Apple does this really well.

      Just wipe the phone back to factory upon reaching the airport, restore it when you get to your hotel. Let border security search all they want.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    15. Re:Phones need multiple passwords by spiritplumber · · Score: 1

      What happens if the cash calls a lawyer? (Via a microcontroller with a 2G antenna, for example).

      --
      Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
  7. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next step, shut down the border entirely.

    1. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you mean the border between what's inside "inside the beltway" and the rest of the country, I think you'd have a lot of support.

  8. US History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regarding the US Constitution, A professor of mine once said:
    The history of the United States is the story of making that document come true.

    1. Re:US History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US Constitution speaks more about the goals rather than existing facts on the ground. "All men are created equal" is a goal and never has been a reality because it is still to easy to prove through example that "all men are not created equal".

    2. Re: US History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The constitution is like the Bible. Old men learned lessons and passed down those lessons so we wouldn't have to repeat their mistakes.

      Except like the Bible, people only follow what they want to follow, and ignore the rest.

    3. Re:US History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it doesn't mean literally created equally like we're all clones, it means equally before the law.

  9. Just tell the court everybody is suspicious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Simples!

  10. Citizens are suspects, tourists are terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so they have all the reasons they need. That's how this is going to play out.

  11. Virus Checkers honeypot? by DejaBu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There already exists the technology to infect android etc phones via the USB port - such that once your phone has been 'searched', It can provide additional data either for detecting terrorism or corporate espionage. As a side note, business or important travellers to China reportedly have free USB 'phone chargers' in their hotel rooms, which when used infect the phone. I have often wondered why someone from one of these firms don't go through with a 'honey pot' phone, act suspicious, get their phone searched, and then do a full diagnostic of the phone to find what they've done to it. Would make for a great story/analysis.

    1. Re:Virus Checkers honeypot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, factory reset the phone before entering - to protect your secrets. Then factory reset after the scanning, to protect against malware. Then, reload contact lists and whatever.

  12. Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The 4th Amendment does not provide any exceptions to its rules. Search and Seizure requires a warrant. It does not say except on the border or except when there is suspicion. As long as we are okay with ignoring what the constitution says under the guise of "safety" then all of it will be ignored. Kinda like it has already been for a long time now.

    We are not even pretending to follow the constitution, we just pretending that we have not become a police state.

    "Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home."

    ~Madison

    1. Re:Terrible Rulling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither does the 2nd, but an overgrown and bloated government will find exceptions where it proves useful to them.

    2. Re:Terrible Rulling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

      Note that it does not say "the right of businesses to engage in trade of arms shall not be infringed." One of the powers that the Constitution most specifically grants Congress is to regulate trade.

      Even if you want to set that aside, we don't allow citizens to have missiles, nuclear bombs, flame throwers and tanks either. So obviously we draw the line somewhere. The only argument now is over where exactly that line is.

    3. Re:Terrible Rulling by aaronl · · Score: 1

      "Even if you want to set that aside, we don't allow citizens to have missiles, nuclear bombs, flame throwers and tanks either. So obviously we draw the line somewhere. The only argument now is over where exactly that line is."

      Yes, we do allow citizens to own those things. There are privately owned tanks, and flame throwers are liquid projectors and regulated differently (but also completely legal at the federal level). Missiles are destructive devices, are larger than some specific size (I forget what that is), are self-propelled projectiles, and aren't considered firearms, but their ownership and regulation goes along with such things as high explosives and large cannons. There are theoretically ways to privately own a missile, but I'm not sure that anyone has bothered to try. People definitely do own cannons and high explosives. I don't believe nuclear weapons are specifically illegal, but the fissile material itself is most definitely controlled. You couldn't legally possess the quantities required to make anything that could reach a critical mass.

    4. Re:Terrible Rulling by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The 4th Amendment does not provide any exceptions to its rules. Search and Seizure requires a warrant.

      No, the word is "unreasonable". If they meant "warrantless" they probably would have written that.

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

      If you're caught during a crime and put under arrest the pat-down you get is considered reasonable. You're free to argue that it's not, but it's been that way from 1789 to 2018 and not some modern "it doesn't mean what it says" reinterpretation. Same with a bunch of other absolutist interpretations, for example threatening to kill someone has never been covered by the 1st amendment. Only in overly literal reading the courts have never accepted.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Terrible Rulling by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      You're making the other AC's point. The government will weasel any wording in pursuit of the its goals, if you let them.

      also..

      Even if you want to set that aside, we don't allow citizens to have missiles, nuclear bombs, flame throwers and tanks either.

      I'm not sure that any of those are actually specifically forbidden.

      Elon Musk famously gave away a bunch of what he called flame throwers in a recent marketing gimick, and I'm fairly certain that anyone who can afford to produce a nuclear bomb would be able to buy enough congressoids to get an exception to any such laws if they wanted to own one. That's the real barrier to those particular weapons - they're enormously expensive to obtain and anyone who can afford to get one probably would rather just make more money instead.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    6. Re:Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 2

      Wow, so much to work with in all the replies.

      Lets talk about it and follow it precisely. Arms in the 2nd amendment means weapons of any kind without exception. Everything that is a weapons is a constitutionally protected weapons. To prevent people from having them we must actually amend the constitution to say take those rights away.

      As long as we allow "fear" to justify our saying no one can have a nuke but the government without amending the Constitution first then we are only opening the doors to destroying every other constitutionally protected right by reasoning that we have something to fear enough to take that away too.

      No Amendment is safe and as you can tell there is not a single Amendment that the government is not abusing on a daily basis now.

      1st. Judges regularly issue gag orders to stop people from talking to the press. This completely short circuits the entire reason for having the 1st.

      2nd. Yea, this is a huge hot topic, fear mongering and tragedy mongering are the goto tools to suppress this right. Not only that but both sides of the isle have participated in this one. If you want D's to hate guns, talk about a tragic shooting. If you want R's to hate guns, put guns in the hands of a black man. People are meant to have guns because the people are supposed to be able to form militias at the drop of a hat to defend the country from any enemy, foreign or domestic. The presence of numerous guns among the citizenry has been the #1 reason foreign nations would never think of invading America. And many leaders have been quoted on such.

      3rd. Yes, this still gets breached but no one even really thinks about how. Any time the government takes property to fight the war on drugs or crime related efforts this Amendment is breached. There have been many people and possessions that have lost their property, taken, and/or occupied around military installations.

      4th. This article itself is just one minuscule microcosm of this massively breached amendment... it technically no longer even exists if you perform even the most rudimentary of reviews of the actions of law enforcement and judicial rulings.

      5th. Due process simply does not exist in the slightest. You can be removed of property, liberty, and life with so much as a "officer feared for their life" as they walk away laughing. We don't even have to talk about all the people rotting in jail "forgotten" for months at a time without a single trial or even a bail hearing.

      6th. Yea, you have no right to a speedy or public trial. You can be kept in jail for months, judges can issues gags and media blackout orders. You can even be prosecuted in secret and denied access to the evidence against you if they put the word "terrorist" out there.

      7th. Traffic violations all exceed $20 and are regularly processed as civil things to word play themselves to remove your rights to fight the fines.

      8th. Bail is always excessive unless you are super rich and feeds a bondsman trade that is a tyranny upon the people. You can be fined $10k just making a joke at the airport.

      9th. About that... most people do not even understand what this means. But here is a basic one. Your rights to drive around in a car can be removed because people consider it a "privilege". This is NOT correct per the 9th. The idea is that when you break the law you get into trouble. Not to remove a right just because it was not "enumerated" in the bill of rights... kinda just exactly like the 9th says. Yes the 9th really is a catch all "rights" amendment that directly says... "People have a lot of rights, and they have a right to retain those rights, so do not trot out a line of "reasoning" that if its not in the bill of rights it is just a "privilege" to be granted and denied at the whim of the state.

      And the 10th... Federal laws cannot force a state to enforce any commercial laws if the product is made and sold in that state, yet we have a lot of those kinds of laws.

      There are just just examples tha

    7. Re:Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 1

      "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

      "No, the word is "unreasonable". If they meant "warrantless" they probably would have written that."

      I put the WHOLE amendment in there because you are now in engaging in intentional or ignorant misrepresentation of the 4th.

      You see... the first part of the 4th "specifically" defines what IS unreasonable. And it say that any search or seizure of evidence without a warrant is "unreasonable". First you must have "probable cause" when then is used to justify the seeking of a "warrant" which must be also specifically written to describe the place to be search and the person and/or things to be seized.

      You have failed basic reading comprehension because it suits your politics. The writings of the founding fathers... that is the authors of the Constitution are clear as a ringing bell. And do you know what else? They also predicted folks like you as well.

    8. Re:Terrible Rulling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your entire post is based on one basic confusion that renders it completely wrong:

      Not all rights are compatible with each other.

      Every single right spelled out in the Constitution can conflict with another right, and when it does, the government has to decide which one gets priority.

      In your example, gag orders are a violation of the First Amendment... but they serve to protect the Due Process rights of others. If gag orders were not permitted, then the Due Process rights of many people would be violated instead.

      Every single argument you make runs into the same problem. Which is why, thank God, you are not a lawyer or a politician.

    9. Re:Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 1

      Wow, spoken like a true, I have to trample your rights to protect you member of law enforcement.

      Welp, can't say you have not been warned. Remember what you just said the next time your rights are trampled, it's only for your own good and protection.

      With fellow citizens like you, who needs an invading army?

    10. Re:Terrible Rulling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI: I was gonna mod you up because this is a good conversation, with good point and counterpoint, but then I saw the ad-hominem attack. Sorry. Hopefully someone else will reply and I can mod them up.

    11. Re:Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 1

      "I'm not sure that any of those are actually specifically forbidden."

      You are correct, they are not against the law. A missile is just an object forcibly propelled and includes things like rocks you have thrown, an arrow you have shot with a bow and yes, engine mounted and propelled machines fitted with explosives are all missiles. But if you fire anything that damages another persons property or invades a restricted airspace... good luck. Remember, even those little NASA shoot your own rockets 50 feet into the air kits are technically missiles too!

      Flamethrowers are also mostly legal and you can watch youtube videos of people using them to torch beehives.

      You can buy tanks, but I don't know if you could get one with any functional weapons still attached though. And you might have trouble driving them down certain roads without racking up a litany of moving violations and extensive harassment from local law enforcement because they can.

      Regarding nukes... yea, even though it is not constitutional to arrest someone for having one... you will totally get rail roaded by authorities without a spec of remorse on that one.

    12. Re:Terrible Rulling by Solandri · · Score: 1

      The 4th Amendment does not provide any exceptions to its rules.

      The SCotUS has consistently ruled that the U.S. Constitution only applies to U.S. soil. That's why Bush put a prison in Guantanamo. The Marine base there is on Cuban soil, leased since 1903. Any prisoners sent there would technically not be on U.S. soil, and thus not gain U.S. Constitutional rights. (A later SCotUS decision ruled that although it wasn't U.S. soil, the U.S. had administrative authority over it making it essentially the same as U.S. soil, granting the prisoners there Constitutional rights.)

      So no, if you're trying to enter the U.S. at a border, you're not protected by the 4th Amendment. The answer is muddied a bit by air travel, but some leeway is given for deplaning passengers who have not yet passed through immigration. Some extremists at CBP have interpreted this exception to the extreme to come up with the infamous "Constitution does not apply within 100 miles of an International airport" quote, but given the history behind the SCotUS precendents that interpretation would be highly unlikely to stand up in court.

      Also, the argument you're trying to make (applying the U.S. Constitution outside U.S. territory) is extremely dangerous. If you say the 4th Amendment protects people outside the U.S., you set a precedent whereby other U.S. laws can also be applied to people outside the U.S. And that is a can of worms we're trying to prevent from being opened. It sounds like a great idea when your country does it. But if you consider what happens if every country on Earth does it, you realize just how terrible a concept it is.

    13. Re:Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 2

      This is how it usually goes. It does not matter that I am right, it only matters that I present my case according to certain dogmatic requirements.

      If someone tells me to stop being an asshole and not jump off a cliff to my death does that mean that I should go ahead and jump off the cliff in defiance of their admonition because... ad hominem?

      If you would like an apology, then I offer it! My intention is not to insult, but to emphasis the exasperation I feel when so many people are somehow able to misinterpret the the word "unreasonable" to mean the complete opposite of what it means in regards to the 4th.

      I can understand why lawyers, police, politicians, and judges all want to interpret "reasonable" like that because it gives them MORE power. But I cannot understand why a citizen would accept that interpretation when it clearly says that any search or seizure without a warrant is what is classified as being "unreasonable".

      Reasonable can be used to justify anything because what you find unreasonable, a cop or a judge might not and where does that leave you? With no 4th amendment rights to speak of at all... and of course leads directly to this article right here. Police seizing and searching everything under the guise of "fear" and "national security" because they think it IS reasonable to search everyone and everything for any reason.

      If you need people to tell you that without ad hominem attack before you can accept it or understand it then I truly feel sorry for you. People that will allow perceived insults to affect their decision making tend to over focus on that rather than the truth of the matter.

    14. Re:Terrible Rulling by SirAstral · · Score: 1

      I am not disputing that, you are correct that SCOTUS has constantly ruled that way. I am just saying that it is wrong.

      "So no, if you're trying to enter the U.S. at a border, you're not protected by the 4th Amendment."

      You are if you are a Citizen, but like you have already established, the constitution means nothing anymore.

      "The answer is muddied a bit by air travel,"
      Not really, nothing other than the usual "going through the motions" occurs there, just like this pointless ruling.

      "Some extremists at CBP have interpreted this exception to the extreme to come up with the infamous "Constitution does not apply within 100 miles of an International airport" quote, but given the history behind the SCotUS precendents that interpretation would be highly unlikely to stand up in court. "

      Seriously? It's already gone! go through the airport... you are already subject to search and seizure at random for any reason already. It does not even really need to be tried and any ruling by SCOTUS means nothing anyways. It's not like the police have'nt been ignoring SCOTUS 24/7 now and you don't see SCOTUS doing anything about it either. It's not a matter of debate, it's already LONG GONE!

      "Also, the argument you're trying to make (applying the U.S. Constitution outside U.S. territory) is extremely dangerous."

      No, it is only dangerous when you also make the claim that the Constitution applies to non-citizens.

      Every citizen of the United States is American Soil even when the soil they stand on it not American. What is a nation? The people that rule it or the citizens? In most other nations their kings and government own them. But in America, per the constitution, the Citizens OWN the government. You are operating from the wrong side of the equation.

      I can understand why you would, most people think of themselves more as subjects of their nations than citizens of their nations anyways. Why else would politicians and police get the idea that THEY are above the law and YOU are not?

    15. Re:Terrible Rulling by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The Marine base there is on Cuban soil, leased since 1903. Any prisoners sent there would technically not be on U.S. soil, and thus not gain U.S. Constitutional rights.

      Which was a million megatons of fascist BS crammed into a five pound sack, as "as long as you're on US soil" is completely absent from the bill of rights. Otherwise the government would be free to take your arrested ass across the border and beat a confession out of you.

      Also, the argument you're trying to make (applying the U.S. Constitution outside U.S. territory) is extremely dangerous. If you say the 4th Amendment protects people outside the U.S., you set a precedent whereby other U.S. laws can also be applied to people outside the U.S.

      Extreme FUD. The Constitution defines what powers the federal government has and the limits of said powers. That the Constitution prevents the USG from torturing someone in the Netherlands in no way implies that the USG can enforce its marijuana prohibition laws on the Netherlands.

    16. Re:Terrible Rulling by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Nah, don't apologize. 'You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into' so sometimes all that's left is flaming the motherfucker so hard they are less likely to trot out their BS in the future least they be publicly humiliated again.

    17. Re:Terrible Rulling by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that you should be denied the right to a fair trial because preventing publication would be unreasonable? In reality a good lawyer could probably ensure you never faced a trialif there was adverse publicity, although that would not help poor people.

    18. Re:Terrible Rulling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oooh, FUD!

      Tell me, how do you resolve the conflict between the First Amendment's Free Speech and the Fifth Amendment's Due Process rights?
      Obviously, you know exactly how to solve this conundrum that has trouble the US legal system for the past 200+ years. So, please, share with us! Save us from the ignorant flailing of generations of legal experts, Oh Slashdotter!

    19. Re:Terrible Rulling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Even if you want to set that aside, we don't allow citizens to have missiles, nuclear bombs, flame throwers and tanks either.

      The constitution allows "arms". People who can't have tanks & missiles, can still have "arms". Long guns are "arms", so there is no constitutional problem outlawing everything else. Practical problems perhaps, such as getting re-elected.

    20. Re:Terrible Rulling by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      It's actually more basic than that. "Warrant" is just a term for the legal authority to search or seize someone's property. In the absence of a legally issued warrant, law enforcement personnel have no more actual authority to search or seize anyone's property than other other group of private citizens. A "warrantless search" is, by definition, an illegal search: one knowingly and openly conducted without any claim to legal authority. What we have here is not a warrantless search, precisely, but rather one conducted under the pretense of an illegal (unconstitutional) warrant. Law enforcement claims to have legal authority to perform the search—a warrant, whether they use that term or not—but whatever law or judicial ruling they are appealing to as justification fails the Constitutional requirement for "probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized", which renders it null and void. The warrant authorizing the search was never legally issued.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  13. Everyone is now suspect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Problem solved

  14. For the rest of us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Those who are not US citizens do not have any rights, period. That is so axiomatic in US law and culture that it is not even mentioned this only applies to US citizens.
    And then they wonder why so many people dislike the US.

  15. "Case Law" is a mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All it did is allow the slow erosion of freedom in this country. The 4th amendment applies to all of us, including the border. Fuck authoritarians and fuck judges. Hang them all and start over.

  16. The problem with these lower court rulings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem with these lower court rulings is that they are immaterial and irrelevant. The Supreme Court has already ruled that border searches of any kind do not require suspicion of any kind. They can be routine as a matter of national security, as long as the subject of the search is within 100 miles of the boundary of the United States.

    1. Re:The problem with these lower court rulings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      By that reasoning 200 million people have no rights because they live within 100 miles of the border...
      https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
      I quote:
      "The Supreme Court has upheld the use of immigration checkpoints, but only insofar as the stops consist only of a brief and limited inquiry into residence status".

      Searching electronic devices won't pass muster just like the Appellate court is ruling in this case in the article as they should. Illegal immigrants might be one thing, warrantless searches of citizens is a completely different one.

  17. Exactly why I don't travel with a cell phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Whenever I travel to a foreign country, I buy a burner when I get there and destroy it before I come home (usually with fire).

  18. Does this apply to visitors? by Timothy2.0 · · Score: 2

    The US Supreme Court has ruled, on a number of occasions, that non-citizens are entitled to due process just the same as American citizens. Anyone want to weigh in on how this appellate court ruling will apply to non-American visitors?

    1. Re:Does this apply to visitors? by SirAstral · · Score: 1

      I bet that it will have no effect. Considering previous supreme court rulings they have no reason to change what they are doing.

  19. Easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they crossed illegally, they comitted a crime.

  20. Going to make more work for the US gov by AHuxley · · Score: 0

    Getting that gps data in an image to show a persons stay in other nations they failed to mention.
    The kinds of images that show support for groups of interest to the US gov.
    Its like entering the US with a roll of film and saying the US gov cannot develop the film to see the images.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  21. Encryption keys, don't leave home with them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why I keep all data I care about in an encrypted volume. Before getting anywhere near customs volume encryption key is wiped only to be restored upon returning home.

    This leaves customs with two options: Get a proper warrant or get a few gigabytes of noise.

  22. Actually the fourth DOES say "reasonable" by raymorris · · Score: 3, Informative

    > The 4th Amendment does not provide any exceptions to its rules. Search and Seizure requires a warrant. It does not say except on the border *or except when there is suspicion.*

    Here's the exact wording of the fourth amendment, with my comments on each of its two parts:
    --
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated
    --

    The fourth says we have a right to be secure against UNREASONABLE searches. There is a legal principle that if the sign says "No parking on Sundays", that implies that parking is allowed at other times. Otherwise the sign would just say "No parking". When the Constitution says no "unreasonable searches", that means that *reasonable* searches are allowed. Courts have ruled that in order for a search to be reasonable, it must be based on reasonable suspicion.

    Whenever I point out what the law says, somebody gets mad at me and starts arguing "so you think ...". I actually didn't write the Constitution, I only read it. Secure "against unreasonable searches" isn't what I think the Constitution SHOULD say, it's what the Constitution DOES say.

    If I was writing it today, I might say something more specific than "unreasonable". As it is, it's up to the courts to decide if a search is "reasonable" based on principles laid out by the Supreme Court. Courts have two ways to look the reasonableness of a search. They can determine if a search WAS reasonable based on the circumstances, or if time allows they can rule on whether a particular search of a particular place WILL BE reasonable in the future. The fourth amendment addresses one of those two specifically.

    Continuing now with the rest of the fourth amendment:
    --
    and
    --

    Just one little word, but it's worth pointing out that the framers wrote AND, not "or", not a comma, not "therefore". The use of "and" means the above is true, and separately the next part is also true.

    Continuing:
    --
    no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized
    --

    If a court is going to issue a ruling that a future search will be reasonable (a warrant), those requirements must be met. This also gives a hint on how to define "reasonable" when looking at searches that already occurred - they need to have probable cause.

    If a person is arrested and put I'm jail, it's reasonable to avoid allowing contraband into the jail by search them during booking. No need for them to spend a day in quarantine waiting for a search warrant that will definitely be issued. Where there is probable cause to believe a person has evidence of a crime AND that evidence will disappear if you let them go and come back tomorrow with a warrant, a search with probable cause may be reasonable. A court can decide whether it was reasonable.

    The fourth doesn't say that all searches must be pre-approval, with a warrant. It says they must be reasonable. A warrant is one way of handling the determination of reasonableness.

    Here's something that's just my opinion. It's not in the Constitution. I'd like to see better consequences for officers who violate this and other Constitutional rights in a clear way. If an officer knew, or should have known, that their actions violate Constitutional rights, penalties should be imposed on the officer. It should happen regularly enough that officers expect they'll likely get busted if they do that sort of thing, especially if they do it often they'll get busted before long. I also think that courts should continue to be free to disagree with an officer's determination of reasonableness and disallow the evidence, without penalizing the officer if they reasonably thought their actions were okay under the circumstances. Only idiots would become cops if cops go to jail the first time a court disagrees with them on a judgement call. YouTube has plenty of examples of cops who knew they didn't have probable cause, though, or should have known.

    1. Re:Actually the fourth DOES say "reasonable" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If I was writing it today, I might say something more specific than "unreasonable". As it is, it's up to the courts to decide if a search is "reasonable" based on principles laid out by the Supreme Court. Courts have two ways to look the reasonableness of a search. They can determine if a search WAS reasonable based on the circumstances, or if time allows they can rule on whether a particular search of a particular place WILL BE reasonable in the future. The fourth amendment addresses one of those two specifically.

      You've made a common oversight in assessing the Bill of Rights.

      It's an open-ended document. James Madison deliberately made it this way to address the concern that the wording wouldn't be adequate to protect all individual rights. For that reason, he added protected for any rights the people might wish to assert. It's such an important principle that it appears twice: the 9th Amendment retains unspecified right to the people, the 10th Amendment reserves to unspecified rights to the people.

      In short, it isn't enough to just comply with the literal text of the 4th Amendment: the government has to ALSO comply with any right the people might choose to assert relating to the matter at hand. Such rights do not require any legislative or judicial action to exist, for if they did, they would not be retained by or reserved to the people (a contradiction). Hence, any individual can assert such a right - and if the right is reasonable, it is binding on the government (regardless of case law and precedent: rights retained by the people are retained by the people by definition, and thus can not be taken by ANY entity of government).

      Wording problems in the Bill of Rights are not an issue - or at least they shouldn't be - because any wording problem that could allow the government to violate individual rights in another amendment is automatically corrected by SOME right that can be asserted under the 9th and 10th Amendments.

      In short, all of the games government in the US is playing today with respect to bypassing the Bill of Rights under various pretexts and hidden behind fig leafs are illegal. If the search isn't reasonable in the eyes of the people, then the search was not a legal search even if the judiciary disagrees - and even if it is done under the alleged authority of an Act of Congress. As the highest law in the land, the Bill of Rights supersedes the authority of both the judiciary and Congress. This conclusion invalidates a large percentage of border searches - and it completely destroys the 100 mile rule. In short, US government is breaking the law on a daily basis - so the next logical question is: what are we going to do about it?

    2. Re:Actually the fourth DOES say "reasonable" by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      If an officer knew, or should have known, that their actions violate Constitutional rights, penalties should be imposed on the officer.

      18 U.S. Code  242 - Deprivation of rights under color of law:

      Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

  23. Constitutional jurisdiction as a convicted felon by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Interestingly, that question has already been decided, and I think they got it wrong both ways.

    The law already applies to residents/citizens of foreign countries. I was locked up for several years with many foreign nationals who exported cocaine that wound up in America. Some of them did not even have a direct connect to anyone in the US. Just, bang! Midnight arrest, short plane flight, handover to federal agents, and next thing they knew a public defender was telling them they were in the US and they would be seeing a judge in a couple of days.

    Somehow, though, it does NOT apply to American citizens overseas. I have read cases of the FBI conducting/leading searches of Americans' property and residences overseas with no warrant and no judicial oversight. Obama even had a citizen assassinated overseas after making the determination that he was a terrorist. That's not how that's supposed to work.

    Um, full disclosure, FWIW. I am a convicted felon, served 9 years for armed bank robbery and carjacking. I am a liberal and I align much more closely with the Democratic Party than with the Republican Party.

  24. Non-American visitors by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    IANAL. If I remember correctly, that due process requirement was explicitly tied to presence in the territory of the U.S. I also think the searches at the border are associated with the extra-territoriality of the ports and airports (i.e., you're not "in" the U.S. until you clear Customs, or some such)?

    I think it's a wash. They'll probably be treated the same as citizens, except that they'll be way more likely to be denied entry.

    FWIW, it is weird to see this come out of the 4th Circuit. Usually those guys go hard.

  25. Missing that he WAS LEAVING the US by bongey · · Score: 1

    The editors do a wonderful job of mixing up the differences between cases. The difference is the person was leaving the US and was searched , then arrested by the evidence from the phone search.

  26. Cops free to beat your brains out on the street by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    This isn't the 1970s and the United States isn't a country where police corruption is endemic.

    Literally. And this guy was even white and the son of a police officer. Cops have been given absolute power over the citizenry when they can claim to have felt threatened, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Cops in the United States absolutely will commit perjury in court and falsify evidence. If not for their own cases, they'll do it to help out their "bad apple" buddies on the force.

  27. Backup - Wipe - Restore by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    It blows my mind that everyone, let alone all criminals, do not do this.

  28. Re: the 2nd Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Arms in the 2nd amendment means weapons of any kind without exception. Everything that is a weapons is a constitutionally protected weapons. To prevent people from having them we must actually amend the constitution to say take those rights away."

    IANAL, but not so fast. In The District of Columbia vs. Heller the right of individual gun ownership was narrowly crafted to deal the case before the Court. The court dealt with ownership of a handgun, possession a person's home, and other limited issues. The opinion specifically states that the decision does not address other issues and mentions many specifically, such restrictions regarding concealed carry, prohibitions on gun ownership by certain classes of people (felons, mentally ill, etc.), prohibitions on locations guns can be possessed, prohibition on machine guns and other weapons. To be clear, I am not saying that the Court ruled that those and other limitations are part or are not part of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. I'm only saying that the Court said they were only ruling on the case before them--which the Court often does, and were pointing out that this ruling did not apply to many other issues including more than a few possible restrictions on gun ownership.
    Part 2. This is something I thunk up myself, and I don't know what if any legal clarifications have alreadt been made. The first phrase of the 2nd Amendment text: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..."
    Two points: regulation by the government (if not the govn't, then by who?) can be necessary to achieve a good. That is in the 2nd Amendment. It ought to piss off far leftist regulation lovers by the fact that is in part of the 2nd Amendment, and similarly piss-off far rightist who think all government regulation is bad.
    Note that the phrase is "well regulated." That ought to clear things up and end all debate...not!
    Also note that in this case the phrase says "a well regulated militia..." So militias can be regulated, hopefully well regulated. I don't know about you, but I think I prefer any militias to be well regulated compared to no or bad regulation.
    Note what it does not say. It does not say that ONLY militias can be well regulated. It does not say gun ownership cannot be regulated.
    Reading the Heller decision, it seems clear to me that the Court was pointing out that personal gun ownership has been subject to regulations, and it not an absolute right.
    End of rant.
    Anonymous Coward (or smart cookie?)
    A Firm Supporter of the 21st Amendment.
    (Look it up)

  29. Re:Shouldb't Border be From Mexico to Canada??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why limit Immigration Agents to 100 miles? Why not up to the Canadian border from Mexico? Is this what I raised my hand for on my oath of enlistment in the USA?" "I swear to Protect and Defend the Constitution of the USA from all enemies foreign and domestic, ...? Definitely ,NOT!!! This OATH has no time limitation, so My Oath is still in force until I die. I took this oath freely as did my brother after me and my Uncle and Grandfather before me. They died protecting the USA. I will Protect and Defend the Constitution of the USA from all enemies foreign and domestic,
    We have given leeway to ICE agents to just scoop up persons over 100 miles from the border while working on a job and place him/her in handcuffs hustled into a van and carried away. Seems not much different than the Soviet Secret Police or other totalitarian regimes.

      I saw this first hand in a McDonald's in a Ca parking lot where a man pulled up in a truck,went into McDonald's, notified the manager his work schedule of painting the parking lot light poles,he started painting to light poles in parking lot. Then within 5 minutes, a White van with guys w/MACHINE GUNS, pulled the painter off his ladder, handcuffed the man and left everything behind, paint brushes, paint, tarp, his company van, everything but the painter.
    Seems like something from a previous century 1930-1960 terror campaigns of the "Red Menace". But this was 2107. Thought there was something called the RULE of LAW and DUE PROCESS, ya know that stuff the President seems not to care about. Seeing what happened to Americans of Japanese descent interred in 1942. sends chills through me. I may be singled out since I have dual citizenship as a native born American and of American-Irish citizenship due to my mother's birth in Ireland.
    -This treatment makes me ASHAMED to be called and AMERICAN when our laws are only a piece of paper changeable on Presidential whim

  30. Let's strike the need to prove racist thoughts by raymorris · · Score: 1

    That law is good and all, but not enough until it's amended to remove a few words. Right now we have:

    Cops can be punished if they violate your Constitutional rights and the prosecution proves proves that they did it because you're black or Mexican.*

    How about we take out the part and just have:

    Cops can be punished if they violate your Constitutional rights.

    * I'm not actually kidding about the "black or Mexican part. Shockingly, the federal code also includes the words "discrimination against Caucasian persons is not discrimination". I'd have to double check the surrounding wording to see if that could be applied in the context you quoted.