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First Cuba, Now China? A Worker In US Embassy In China Experienced 'Abnormal' Sounds, Brain Damage (reuters.com)

amxcoder writes: An American citizen working at a U.S. consulate located in the Chinese city of Guangzhou has reported experiencing "abnormal" sounds (and pressures) for the past several months, starting in late 2017 until April of 2018. Upon medical evaluation, the worker has been diagnosed with mild traumatic brain injury symptoms. The U.S. embassy is conducting an investigation into the issue, and is issuing warnings to all U.S. citizens in China. The symptoms and several other similarities has drawn comparison to a similar event last year in a different U.S. embassy in Cuba. Officials can not link the two events together at this point, but the U.S. State Department is working with Chinese authorities to investigate the issue further. As a result of the Cuba acoustic "attacks," the U.S. government in October expelled 15 Cuban diplomats from the U.S. for what it said was Cuba's failure to protect staff at the U.S. embassy in Havana. Staff there reported symptoms including hearing loss, dizziness, fatigue, and cognitive issues. Canadian personnel also reported similar health symptoms.

19 of 160 comments (clear)

  1. Still need to take this with skepticism by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The embassy in Cuba was renovated in the '70's and has ultrasonic alarms of that vintage. The sound of more than one of them intermodulating with each other (a harmless effect) would be exactly as reported.

    The problem with these reports is that the U.S. has been intensively monitoring for various forms of sound, radio waves, radiation, etc. since the Great Seal Bug. And you've got to be skeptical about anything that all of the intelligence and military agencies of the great and powerful USA can't detect.

    1. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, you think because their own people were killed, they have an interest in blaming it on Russia - which has a 400 year history of peaceful relations with the Netherlands and much greater economic significance for trade - rather than little Ukraine? It doesan't make sense.

    2. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by rahvin112 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      These "attacks" are alleged to have occured at the workers homes.

      The biggest problem I have with this whole story is that all the experts on sound keep saying what the US proposes is happening here violates the laws of physics. That to generate an effect like this at any distance is practically impossible.

      I've been of the opinion that whatever is happening is likely a conflict between two systems exacerbated by some sore of harmonic. Probably a bug / counter bug that are interacting in some bad way, maybe because one of them is broken. I have a hard time believing this is anything other that some accidental harmonic. I won't be surprised in the least if we find out that some fancy new US anti bugging tech is getting into a harmonic sequence with the bug and causing these problems because the US design never accounted for an ultrasonic bug that was broken and using the wrong frequency.

    3. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by slew · · Score: 2

      Well, the Dutch don't have a horse in this race. I'd much rather trust them than an Anonymous Coward.

      I don't know if I would give the Dutch a free pass about anything in Malaysia or Indonesia...

      https://www.independent.co.uk/...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      It is likely they have no horse in this race, but the Dutch have had more than their fair share of horses in that part of SE asia since the days of the Dutch East India Company...

    4. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      A sonic attack from space may sound far-fetched but they have been doing very creative things with lasers and microwaves these days.

      Obviously there isn't going to be a sonic attack from someplace with no atmosphere.

      Lasers actually do spread, one from space is going to end up being larger than someone's house, and easy enough to detect. Microwaves will never get that narrow a beamwidth and are easy to receive.

    5. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      Whoa! You totally misread me. I wrote that the Dutch did not have any reason to blame Russia if they didn't think Russia actually did it. I certainly believe them when they say that Russia did it.

    6. Re: Still need to take this with skepticism by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative

      The difference would be audible at 5 kHz. Modulation of one signal with another? Remember the inverse square law. The strongest combination of the two signals is between them, not at the transducers. Where sum (too high to be audible) and difference would be the strongest signals after the fundamentals (also too high to be audible). Air and the ear are sufficiently nonlinear.

    7. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by DamnOregonian · · Score: 2

      :|
      I don't have the words to really articulate the dumbfounded look on my face right now.

      Yes, we know for sure it couldn't be a satellite-based attack.
      There is no satellite emitter that is going to cause sonic waves to travel further than the collimated radiation that creates them via its interaction with the atmosphere (if such a thing is even possible).
      Basically, you have to pump out a *lot* of laser light or microwave energy to affect the atmosphere in any appreciable way. I posit that enough to cause sonic waves to hit the ground from space is enough to vaporize whatever the fuck is on the other end of that radiation emission.

    8. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2

      Well, what do the Geneva Conventions on War state about the use of Acoustic Weapons . . . ?

      Oh, wait . . . we're not at war neither with Cuba nor with China . . .

      . . . yet . . .

      And what if it is neither Cuba nor China directly who were using them? What if the damage is a side-effect not the intended outcome. Much more likely the damage is a side-effect of some sort of listening device or espionage and not an actual weapon. It's probably not even Cuba and China, but another state spying on us because they are suspicious of our activities in those two countries.

      Who wouldn't want us getting closer to Cuba and China? Who is traditionally closer to those two countries than the US... and invests heavily in military and espionage?

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    9. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2

      ... Oh and as an addendum to my previous comment.

      What if the US is actually doing it to itself? That's another possible scenario. Those are two countries we might expect espionage in, so what if the US has some sort of device that is designed to mask what goes on inside the embassy to listeners outside (acoustic or electronic listeners) and that device is making people in the embassy go deaf?

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    10. Re:Still need to take this with skepticism by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      Before anyone made an infrared motion detector based on an IC, intrusion alarms were based on sonar. They would detect the doppler from any moving object, which would be a difference from the fundamental frequency. Ultrasonic ones had the advantage that they did not make audible noise. At least most of the time. There were audible ones too. These ran around 10 kHz, I think using the same speaker for the alarm siren and for the sonar emitter.

  2. Common Factor: US Embassy by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It seems to me that the common factor is that they work at a US Embassy. Presumably, these are stocked with a variety of high tech equipment both to enable and prevent spying. Is it possible that there is some undesirable interaction of this equipment? The alternative, that someone is targetting US officials in disparate parts of the world with a bizarre ultrasonic non-lethal weapon seems somewhat less likely in the absence of any evidence for either scenario.

    1. Re: Common Factor: US Embassy by guruevi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Could also be a case of mass psychosis. When you have hundreds of workers and you start warning them both internal and give credence through the media, you get these sort of results. Anticebo effect.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  3. Russia did not shoot down MH17 by willy_me · · Score: 4, Informative

    Russia did not pull the trigger - they gave a powerful weapon to untrained rebels who did pull the trigger. The distinction is minor - but relevant.

    If Russia was operating the AA missiles MH17 would probably be intact. The Russian military is well trained and would verify the identity of a plane before firing. The rebels - not so much. Giving AA missiles to the rebels is like giving a BB gun to a 10 year old --- do not be surprised when you find a pile of dead birds with BB shaped holes in them.

    After MH17 was brought down, the AA missiles were withdrawn back to Russia. This is a sign that Russia is embarrassed by what happened and was taking steps to prevent it from happening again. Too little too late... After this there was an increase in Russian military activity - probably due to the fact they could not trust the rebels to do the job for them.

    So Russia is to blame but they did not pull the trigger. Giving the AA missiles to the rebels was probably a political decision that had nothing to do with the military. I imagine that, at the time, the Russian generals did not approve of the decision and were probably not surprised by the result.

    And a note regarding Russians looting the victims --- it did not happen. The looting was from the local rebels. Basically gangs of undisciplined assholes tasked with driving out anyone who did not speak Russian. Once again, the Russians facilitated this behavior and are partially responsible, but they did not do it.

    1. Re: Russia did not shoot down MH17 by Type44Q · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Russian military is well trained and would verify the identity of a plane before firing.

      Actually, yes, they would.

    2. Re:Russia did not shoot down MH17 by willy_me · · Score: 3, Informative

      And an intercepted recording of the incident...

      CNN

      It could have been faked, but unlikely. Most of the Ukrainian assertions claim that Russia was more directly involved. It is doubtful they would fake a recording that counters their assertions.

  4. What are the symptoms? by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 2, Funny

    Staff there reported symptoms including hearing loss, dizziness, fatigue, and cognitive issues

    So lawyers, poli-sci grads, international studies grads :
      - Are noticed to be misinterpreting everything they hear in a way that seems like they are suffering hearing loss
      - Are dizzy after lunch and dinner... maybe having a little bit of trouble walking a straight line, can't touch their noses, etc...
      - Appear to be lazy as shit and are hoping people will believe they have fatigue?
      - Have cognitive issues... I mean beyond the aforementioned being a lawyer, poli-sci/international studies grad...

    I seriously don't see how this isn't a bigger problem in all embassies around the world.

    Is it possible this has always been the case but now, they're in a communist country and want to blame it on that?

  5. I have troubles believing this by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 2

    Audio attack? This has supposedly been happening for months (in Cuba). The very first thing any competent investigator would do is put microphones on the 'targets', to confirm the hypothesis of audio attack, to start understanding where and how the attacks are taking place, and to have evidence to present to the world that the attacks are real. I've seen no claims of there being such evidence. (I'm not perfect, so if I've missed something in the news, I'm happy to be corrected.)

    On the other hand, the mass hysteria hypothesis explains the known facts very well - except that we have to also assume US State Department incompetence, given that they expelled diplomats over this.

    --
    Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
  6. This is starting to look a lot like by Chrisq · · Score: 2

    This is starting to look a lot like something that America is doing in its embassies, at least in "non-allied" countries. Maybe some leakage from something aimed at the host country's infrastructure