Bitcoin's Price Was Artificially Inflated Last Year, Researchers Say (nytimes.com)

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Bitcoin's Price Was Artificially Inflated Last Year, Researchers Say (nytimes.com)

Posted by msmash on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:40AM from the closer-look dept.

A concentrated campaign of price manipulation may have accounted for at least half of the increase in the price of Bitcoin and other big cryptocurrencies last year, according to a paper released on Wednesday by an academic with a history of spotting fraud in financial markets. From a report, first shared to us by reader davidwr: The paper by John Griffin, a finance professor at the University of Texas, and Amin Shams, a graduate student, is likely to stoke a debate about how much of Bitcoin's skyrocketing gain last year was caused by the covert actions of a few big players, rather than real demand from investors. Many industry players expressed concern at the time that the prices were being pushed up at least partly by activity at Bitfinex, one of the largest and least regulated exchanges in the industry. The exchange, which is registered in the Caribbean with offices in Asia, was subpoenaed by American regulators shortly after articles about the concerns appeared in The New York Times and other publications. Mr. Griffin looked at the flow of digital tokens going in and out of Bitfinex and identified several distinct patterns that suggest that someone or some people at the exchange successfully worked to push up prices when they sagged at other exchanges. To do that, the person or people used a secondary virtual currency, known as Tether, which was created and sold by the owners of Bitfinex, to buy up those other cryptocurrencies.

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It was Willybot by xack · 2018-06-13 04:45 · Score: 5, Informative

The big MtGox bubble in 2013 was caused by Willybot. Other bots have been developed since then to pump the price. I seen the price of Bitcoin rise over a 1000 dollars in a minute at the peak of the bubble due to bot activity.
1. Re:It was Willybot by freeze128 · 2018-06-13 05:12 · Score: 1
  
  Thank you for not calling it "Mount Gox"...
2. Re:It was Willybot by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:40 · Score: 0
  
  Now it's just Empty Gox
3. Re:It was Willybot by Joce640k · 2018-06-13 07:35 · Score: 2
  
  Anybody who looks at a graph of bitcoin prices can see it's artificial. It goes in stairsteps, not the sloping ups and downs of human buying. Sometimes the humans come in and mess it up but watch it for a few days and you'll see it clearly. Robotrading.
  (find a 12 or 24 hour view of prices to see it best)
  It goes up a step, up a step, up a step, ... then crashes down again. Somebody definitely a lot of robots set up doing the pumping and dumping.
  
  --
  No sig today...
4. Re: It was Willybot by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 07:37 · Score: 0
  
  To be fair they should have changed the name from Magic The Gathering Online Exchange once it stopped having anything to do with MtG.
5. Re:It was Willybot by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:41 · Score: 0
  
  Yea though I walk through the valley of Gox*, I will fear no bubble.
  * = where the mountain used to stand.
6. Re:It was Willybot by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 00:32 · Score: 1
  
  You mean like stock prices, and automated trading? Why should this be any different?
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
7. Re:It was Willybot by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-17 18:06 · Score: 0
  
  Or people set sell or buy orders at rounded values?
It has no intrinsic value by Theaetetus · 2018-06-13 04:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

So the price is always artificially inflated.
1. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Hognoxious · 2018-06-13 04:56 · Score: 2
  
  *froth froth* fiat currency *froth froth* inflation *froth froth* tax *froth froth* Venezuela *froth froth*.
  (roman_mir is temporarily indisposed)
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
2. Re:It has no intrinsic value by pellik · 2018-06-13 04:58 · Score: 2
  
  That's not really true. It's like saying that because music can be copied it has no intrinsic value. There is a utility value in bitcoin that other payment methods don't offer. It also has value to people who have trouble keeping or moving money in other formats due to legal issues (Russia). Bitcoin has found a real niche and it's not going to collapse to nothing unless another coin fully takes its place.
3. Re:It has no intrinsic value by mrwireless · 2018-06-13 05:07 · Score: 1
  
  Doesn't the same go for all money since we went off the gold standard?
4. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Drethon · 2018-06-13 05:26 · Score: 2
  
  Doesn't the same go for all money since we went off the gold standard?
  Isn't that true when we were on the gold standard? The value of gold had to be artificially be held down in order to make gold the standard of trade. Ultimately all any form of money represents is an intermediate form to convert the value of your work into goods you desire, though gold at least has some value in electronics but I think that value is swamped by the perceived value for jewelry.
5. Re:It has no intrinsic value by LynnwoodRooster · 2018-06-13 05:40 · Score: 0
  
  We're told by many here on /. that music HAS no intrinsic value because it CAN be copied. That pirating music OK, because the artist made their money once on the sale of the first recording, so there is no need for them to make money on later sales of that product.
  
  --
  Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
6. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Spy+Handler · 2018-06-13 05:44 · Score: 2
  
  That's not really true. It's like saying that because music can be copied it has no intrinsic value.
  
  Depends what you mean by music.
  I have a mp3 file of Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5. What is the value of my mp3 file? How much will I get if I were to sell it? What is its liquidity?
  Answer is zero. On the other hand if you're talking about the artistic value of the piece or its contribution to human culture, then the answer is priceless.
7. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:00 · Score: 0
  
  "Bitcoin's Price Was Artificially Inflated Last Year"
  Filed under: "No shit, Sherlock"
8. Re:It has no intrinsic value by jythie · 2018-06-13 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  Question is, are they they same people? Ok, probably a lot of them are.. techno libertarianism tends to define a lot of ethics based off what benefits the speaker and it is every else's fault if it doesn't.
9. Re:It has no intrinsic value by DontBeAMoran · 2018-06-13 06:27 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5 is priceless.
  Bitcoin's value is price-less.
  Ergo, Beethoven invented Bitcoin.
  
  --
  #DeleteFacebook
10. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 07:09 · Score: 0
  
  Ha thats the very first thing I said as well.
  And it has no intrinsic value, yes it once tried to be a 'currency' but failed completely, and is now attempting to be an 'investment vehicle', and it will fail at that as well.
  I dont think public blockchain will work for currency, it seems to be more useful as something like a 1 time unalterable voting record, or something like a property record. Doesn't even have to be public, but I am unconvinced that its better in any practical way than the organizations that we already have some trust with and they just use a database.
11. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 07:47 · Score: 0
  
  The value of gold had to be artificially be held down
  How do you do that, exactly?
  You could mine more gold, but how is that artificial? Are you saying that notes (redeemable for specie as per "the gold standard") artificially put more "gold" (i.e. notes) into circulation? That's exactly how banks fail. It's hard to see how a bank with 105% of its gold represented by notes, squeaking by just because there's no run right now, held down the value of gold. Or that, as a medium of exchange, people were always saying "I don't want that gold so you'll get fewer widgets" broadly enough that the value was held down? That's not artificial either- that's the value of gold actually being lower.
12. Re:It has no intrinsic value by vtcodger · 2018-06-13 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  "Doesn't the same go for all money since we went off the gold standard?"
  A gold standard MIGHT have some provide some stabilization. Sometimes. Maybe.
  But unless all borrowing and lending is prohibited or at least the exchange of IOUs is prohibited, the money supply can expand or contract and inflation/deflation/speculation etc can still occur. Further, any new supply of Gold will be inflationary and any failure to find more Gold will be deflationary. Gold based currency is only perfectly stable if just enough Gold is added to the system to exactly match increases (or worse perhaps, decreases) in the size of the economy.
  That is to say that if you put Paul Volker or a clone thereof in charge of your economy, you have a shot at monetary stability -- with or without Gold. Put Alan Greenspan or the like at the helm and a Gold Standard won't help you much.
  
  --
  You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
13. Re:It has no intrinsic value by OldPappy · 2018-06-13 08:34 · Score: 2
  
  If I recall correctly, at one time, the US government set the price of gold at $35 per ounce. They also had laws on the book which prevented ordinary citizens from buying and selling gold, except in jewelry, and other items. Don't recall all the ins and outs of this.
14. Re:It has no intrinsic value by bill_mcgonigle · 2018-06-13 08:36 · Score: 2
  
  We're told by many here on /. that music HAS no intrinsic value because it CAN be copied. That pirating music OK, because the artist made their money once on the sale of the first recording, so there is no need for them to make money on later sales of that product.
  Who says that? All value is relative and individual.
  *Many* people are willing to pay eighty-nine cents or a buck twenty nine for a song. Others are willing to pay fourteen dollars a month for unlimited music.
  Some people are willing to pay three dollars for the utility that a crypto provides; others are willing to pay twenty thousand.
  In all those cases a market allocates the resources from the people who value something more to the people who value something less.
  It's only in the Socialist ideal of one fixed value for a commodity that anybody can dare announce that an orange is worth more than an apple. But that fails every time it's tried, and for obvious reasons. Mises's "Economic Calculation Problem" paper is a good read on the technical subject, or Hazlit's "Economics in One Lesson" is a more gentle introduction. Both are available for free just a google search away, but that doesn't mean nobody values them. It's left as an exercise for the reader to figure out what additional actors may be involved in the value chain.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
15. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:48 · Score: 0
  
  *froth froth* someone dissed bitcoin *froth froth* must defend the bitcoin *froth froth* obey bitcoin *froth froth* bitcoin is my one and only true love since other human beings don't like basement-dwelling, mouth-breathers like me *froth froth*.
16. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:53 · Score: 0
  
  You beat me to it! Fiat fiat! Tax IRS, digital gold! HODL HODL!
17. Re: It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 09:26 · Score: 0
  
  No, because we have a thing called Government which backs regular money.
18. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 09:51 · Score: 1
  
  >or something like a property record
  Yes, except the government is an authority on property records and controls the ledger, so there is no need for a blockchain on property titles.
  Basically it needs to be something where (1) you have no central managing authority, and (2) it needs public verification of the entire ledger.
  There aren't a lot of these problem sets in the wild. Maybe for public domain documents not owned by the government? Bitcoin had to invent a problem for this solution.
19. Re:It has no intrinsic value by farble1670 · 2018-06-13 10:01 · Score: 1
  
  Bitcoin has found a real niche and it's not going to collapse to nothing unless another coin fully takes its place.
  Yes and it's niche is transactions on the gray or black market where you have no other choice but to use it.
20. Re:It has no intrinsic value by farble1670 · 2018-06-13 10:08 · Score: 1
  
  We're told by many here on /. that music HAS no intrinsic value because it CAN be copied.
  Unfortunately (or not, depending on your outlook) that's very true. People today aren't paying for the music, they are paying for the service that make it available to them; the slick app that manages the music on their PC or mobile devices, the data center that provides fast downloads and streaming of the music, the licensing deals with publishers that provide acccess to a large catalog from a single subscription, and so on.
21. Re:It has no intrinsic value by misnohmer · 2018-06-13 10:55 · Score: 1
  
  You mean like most modern currencies, US dollar, Euro, etc? None of them are backed by anything tangible and most of their supply (85%+) is virtual.
22. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 10:59 · Score: 0
  
  How will those artists grandkids children get any money if we don't make people pay over and over for the same song for then next 200 years?
23. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 11:04 · Score: 0
  
  How will those artists grandkids grand-children get any money if we don't make people pay over and over for the same song for then next 200 years?
24. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:23 · Score: 0
  
  are you sure that bitcoin didnt invent beethoven?
25. Re: It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 14:55 · Score: 0
  
  Asshole, if you ever wrote a song people liked enough then you would be anti pirate. But since you are a useless git you think you are cool posting about how other people with real skill and talent should not be allowed to maximize their reward for main the world a better place.
  What have you ever done worth more than your hourly wage? Nothing. Exactly.
26. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Drethon · 2018-06-13 23:04 · Score: 1
  
  If I recall correctly, at one time, the US government set the price of gold at $35 per ounce. They also had laws on the book which prevented ordinary citizens from buying and selling gold, except in jewelry, and other items. Don't recall all the ins and outs of this.
  Yep this, though I don't know much beyond the generic overview either.
27. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 01:22 · Score: 0
  
  No ledger at all is the only option. Anybody that can read a ledger is a threat. Imagine if there was a public running record of everyplace your family went and the exact time. As soon as somebody wants to get rid of you, you're screwed.
  The option of anonymity is essential for freedom.
28. Re:It has no intrinsic value by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 05:11 · Score: 0
  
  Unfortunately the Calculation problem has been thoroughly debunked by science. It's sad that the field of economics is so emotionally averse to harder sciences and maths; it might actually be useful except as a bludgeon the rich use to beat the poor.
29. Re: It has no intrinsic value by Arunex · 2018-06-19 00:06 · Score: 1
  
  is the us government not tangible? what about other governments?
No value at all by pubwvj · 2018-06-13 04:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

Bitcoin has no value. It is just smoke and mirrors.
Paper money is only mildly better, especially now that it has no gold backing.
Gold backed was also not real.
Gold in fact has no real value other than what it can actually be used for to make things of use.
To find something with real value we need to go back to beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. These sorts of things have real value.
1. Re:No value at all by pellik · 2018-06-13 04:59 · Score: 1
  
  But how can we be sure what we perceive is real? What is the value of firewood in a computer simulation?
2. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:04 · Score: 0
  
  Complete bullshit.
  The only real value is what somebody is willing to pay for something.
  .
3. Re:No value at all by ljw1004 · 2018-06-13 05:06 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  To find something with real value we need to go back to beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. These sorts of things have real value.
  Thanks for your 2c^H^H^H half a bean
4. Re:No value at all by Jeremi · 2018-06-13 05:07 · Score: 2
  
  Bitcoin has no value. It is just smoke and mirrors.
  Also, Justin Beiber has no value, because I can't stand his music or his personality.
  Also, Windows 10 has no value, because I don't like Microsoft and only use MacOS and Linux.
  Also, stating that "X has no value" has no value, since that's really just a statement of your personal opinion of X's value to you. X obviously has some value, at least to the people who are using X, otherwise they would not be willing to pay money for X. It's a buyer's willingness to pay for X that defines X's value -- at least for that buyer. You can disagree with the buyer's estimate, but doing so is no more useful than disagreeing with their taste in music, or anything else.
  
  --
  
  I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
5. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:10 · Score: 0
  
  If it's real in the simulation that's good enough.
  Just like needing enough GP to buy armor.
6. Re:No value at all by Srin+Tuar · 2018-06-13 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  slashdot is like a nocoiner HQ.. they really want bitcoin to go away and stop trammeling their lawn.
7. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:13 · Score: 0
  
  The only real value is what somebody is willing to pay for something.
  That's what I learned from eBay.
  Everything is worth what two people are willing to pay for it.
8. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:16 · Score: 0
  
  The only four denominations of real value are:
  Beans, Bacon, Whiskey, and Lard!
9. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:22 · Score: 0
  
  CHON, Wood, malleable metals. That's it.
10. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:23 · Score: 0
  
  To find something with real value we need to go back to beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. These sorts of things have real value.
  Ummmm ... got wood for sheep? :-P
11. Re:No value at all by Drethon · 2018-06-13 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  Yep and hauling around firewood in your pocket does not go very well. Gold and silver as high density value items, that represent the value of what they can be traded for more than intrinsic value, works great. Paper money even better in that it is even more value dense, electronic money is closing on infinitely value dense (I can carry entire country's value on my phone) is amazing, except for how easy it can be manipulated.
12. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:33 · Score: 0
  
  You forgot the other denomination: slaves.
  This period of non-slavery (outside of pockets in Africa) is an historical aberration. When the hard times come again, we will return to enslaving each other. The men will work the fields and mines, the women and children will work in the home and the beds of their owners -- just as in the olden times. Those who resist will be killed slowly and hideously as an example to the others.
  I'm not advocating this, merely predicting it.
13. Re:No value at all by XxtraLarGe · 2018-06-13 05:34 · Score: 1
  
  >Bitcoin has no value. It is just smoke and mirrors. Paper money is only mildly better, especially now that it has no gold backing.
  The difference between Bitcoin & cash is how easy it is to lose your Bitcoin. Lose the private key to your Bitcoin wallet, and you'll never be able to recover it. Lose the key to a safe that money's kept in, at least you can still open the safe. Sure, you can burn money and destroy it, but lost money can usually still be found.
  
  Gold backed was also not real. Gold in fact has no real value other than what it can actually be used for to make things of use. To find something with real value we need to go back to beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. These sorts of things have real value.
  Isn't that true about anything, including beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc.? How much value do beans have to someone allergic to them? How much value does firewood have to someone who lives in an apartment building? How much value does pork have to a Muslim, a Jew or a vegetarian? What value does an impact wrench have to a paraplegic? Gold is almost universally recognized by most cultures throughout history as being a valuable commodity. Women seem to especially like it, and most men like women, so gold has value to them as well.
  
  --
  Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
14. Re:No value at all by DRJlaw · 2018-06-13 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  Bitcoin has no value. It is just smoke and mirrors.
  Paper money is only mildly better, especially now that it has no gold backing.
  Gold backed was also not real.
  Gold in fact has no real value other than what it can actually be used for to make things of use.
  To find something with real value we need to go back to beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. These sorts of things have real value.
  Insightful, yet the analysis of paper money misses the point. The things that have "real" value at the things that other people will accept as payment in exchange. Who will accept paper money as exchange for the taxes that you owe? The government (federal, state, local). Who owes taxes to the government? An awful lot of people. Therefore an awful lot of people need and will accept paper money.
  Bitcoin has "real" value, but it's a thinly traded and small market -- not a lot of people will accept it, and also not a lot of people need it. Paper money has "real" value and an immense market. Your examples of other things with "real" value are not better than paper money, but in fact worse -- they're barter -- because fewer people will accept them and they have smaller markets. I do not need a house-load of beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. and for the most part I will not accept them because I do not want to have deal in them beyond my near-team consumption needs.
  You'd have everyone become a barterer or general merchandiser in a bartering system. That is not an improvement.
15. Re:No value at all by ISayWeOnlyToBePolite · 2018-06-13 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  But how can we be sure what we perceive is real? What is the value of firewood in a computer simulation?
  To repeat the common sense argument made by G. E. Moore for an external world:
  Here is one hand,
  And here is another.
  There are at least two external objects in the world.
  Therefore, an external world exists.
  You don't have to fully agree, just accept that it's probably real enough and that actions are likely to have consequences and you'll be fine.
16. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:10 · Score: 1
  
  Dollars are backed by lead. More recently they are also backed by Predator drones carrying Hellfire missiles. While this is a different type of backing than what you describe, it does increase the dollar's value.
17. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:17 · Score: 0
  
  Personally, I don't like the word "value" in this context. "Utility" may be a better word.
  Now you can argue that a dollar has no utility just as Bitcoin has no utility. There is one key difference though, and that is that the dollar is tied to the utility of the full faith and credit of the United States. There is real power there (regardless of what anyone thinks about the current political climate).
  Bitcoin has it's utility tied to the full faith and credit of... Bitcoin. To me that's not enough to support it in the long term.
18. Re:No value at all by DontBeAMoran · 2018-06-13 06:31 · Score: 1
  
  Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
  
  --
  #DeleteFacebook
19. Re:No value at all by DontBeAMoran · 2018-06-13 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  Gold is almost universally recognized by most cultures throughout history as being a valuable commodity.
  And that's because god has taught us to like gold so that we would search for it, refine it, store it, etc. And once god comes back they will take all the gold from us.
  p.s.: god is aliens.
  
  --
  #DeleteFacebook
20. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:36 · Score: 0
  
  shut the fuck up brainwashed american peon not all currencies is backed by the biggest blowhard military on the planet stupid asshole
21. Re:No value at all by jwhyche · 2018-06-13 07:29 · Score: 2
  
  What is the value of firewood in a computer simulation?
  It is L$99 which would translate into about say, 90 cents depending on the exchange.
  https://marketplace.secondlife...
  
  --
  I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
22. Re:No value at all by HeckRuler · 2018-06-13 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  Utility is what you can use it for.
  Value is what you can trade it for.
  Money has no utility beyond it's value. People trade it for shit.
  
  the dollar is tied to the utility of the full faith and credit of the United States
  Ahhhh, the utility of "faith". Uh huh. ok, I can roll with that: Bitcoin is tied to the utility of the full faith of hard encryption and math. So far all the servers in the NSA, FBI, CIA, Amazon, and Google combined would still take millennia to crack hard encryption and thwart about $5 of electricity on commodity hardware. Maybe you can call that "Real Power", but I'd lean more towards REAL ULTIMATE POWER with ninjas and shit.
  I've got a significant amount of faith that 1+1=2 and factoring large numbers is a bitch and a half.
23. Re:No value at all by vtcodger · 2018-06-13 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  "except for how easy it can be manipulated."
  Well that, and the theft thing. The fact that anonymous entities somehow manage to walk off with other anonymous entities' cryptocurrency despite the purported difficulty of doing so is less than encouraging.
  
  --
  You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
24. Re:No value at all by lhunath · 2018-06-13 08:22 · Score: 1
  
  The value of beans is as real as the value of anything, bitcoin included.
  Before you start making claims about what has value, consider defining value first.
  If you feel value is a thing that enables you to use something to actually do something, get something, trade something or get something done, then beans are as valuable as bitcoin is.
  But from your comment about "smoke and mirrors", it seems like perhaps you feel that value is only real if it is somehow permanent, unchanging, unfleeting. If that's your definition of value, I doubt you will ever find anything that meets the need to satisfy your insecurities.
  
  --
  ``OK, so ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking, yeah?''
25. Re: No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:28 · Score: 0
  
  No but the best and most stable one is.
26. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:34 · Score: 0
  
  Slavers can also be killed as an example to the others, though it may be more difficult to kill them slowly.
27. Re:No value at all by sjames · 2018-06-13 08:56 · Score: 1
  
  On the other hand, how much value does gold have to someone who is starving? If the starvation is serious enough, the Jew or Muslim will eat the pork in order to live. Most vegetarians will as well.
28. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:58 · Score: 0
  
  Bitcoin does not factor large numbers. Bitcoin uses SHA hashing rounds to hash the block with a hash value that matches certain criteria. It is neither cryptographic, nor factoring. It is steganographic.
29. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 09:04 · Score: 0
  
  Bitcoin is tied to the utility of the full faith of hard encryption and math.
  If I create my own cryptocurrency it may be tied in the sense that it uses encryption and math, but that doesn't give it intrinsic utility.
  Just because the mechanics of Bitcoin use math and encryption doesn't make it tied to it (at least in the sense that I was trying to relay).
  Now if Bitcoin could suddenly change the rules of mathematics, you might have a point...
30. Re:No value at all by HeckRuler · 2018-06-13 09:21 · Score: 1
  
  Bitcoin uses SHA-256. Child, teach thyself.
31. Re:No value at all by HeckRuler · 2018-06-13 09:55 · Score: 1
  
  Again, the US dollar likewise has no intrinic utilty. If the mechanics of bitcoin's scarcity being tied to math and encryption doesn't count, then the fact that all those US soldier are paid in US dollars doesn't count either.
  But they both count. The US dollar is strong, for a whole variety of reasons, and I can trust that certain people will accept bitcoins as a form of payment.
32. Re:No value at all by desdinova+216 · 2018-06-13 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  I voted for Cthulhu, you insensitive clod. after all, why choose the lesser evil?
33. Re:No value at all by desdinova+216 · 2018-06-13 10:00 · Score: 1
  
  so, you're into beastiality?
34. Re:No value at all by desdinova+216 · 2018-06-13 10:03 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  it's not the gold itself, it's the latinum that is contained within.
35. Re:No value at all by Carewolf · 2018-06-13 10:04 · Score: 1
  
  Bitcoin has no value. It is just smoke and mirrors.
  Paper money is only mildly better, especially now that it has no gold backing.
  Gold backed was also not real.
  Gold in fact has no real value other than what it can actually be used for to make things of use.
  To find something with real value we need to go back to beans, firewood, pork, tools, etc. These sorts of things have real value.
  Real currencies are debt backed. They are backed by everybody talking loans to buy things, and that way tied to the value of all those things bought on a loan. Assuming most companies would always want to have most of their economic worth fully active, that makes the majority of the worth of the entire country being the backing of the country's currency.
36. Re:No value at all by farble1670 · 2018-06-13 10:17 · Score: 1
  
  Paper money is only mildly better, especially now that it has no gold backing.
  Um, what? Your BTC lost ~20% of it's value over the last week. The dollar in my pocket pretty much has the same buying power as it did a year ago.
37. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:24 · Score: 0
  
  If bitcoin has no value then why was I able to sell it and buy a Ferrari?
  Seems to have value to me.
38. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:24 · Score: 0
  
  wow. gold can buy food. no one refuses gold.
39. Re: No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:33 · Score: 0
  
  That dollar in your pocket is worth a few percent less today than it was last year and has probably lost about 90% of it's value since your grand parents were the age you are now
40. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:58 · Score: 0
  
  1+1=2. Great. Hey - I have a rock. Now I have a second rock. I have 1 + 1 = 2 rocks. Look at the utility of my two rocks, backed by the full faith of math! I wonder how much food I can buy with my 2 rocks with their full backing.
  I can give you an encrypted pic of a turd that will take a very long time to crack. Doesn't mean the pic is worth anything just because it's hard to factor large numbers.
41. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 13:11 · Score: 0
  
  "Thanks for your 2c^H^H^H half a bean"
  That gives me an idea. Bean backed cryptocurrency! I'll be ready for the ICO at the end of this years harvest.
42. Re: No value at all by farble1670 · 2018-06-13 13:30 · Score: 1
  
  That dollar in your pocket is worth a few percent less today than it was last year and has probably lost about 90% of it's value since your grand parents were the age you are now
  Yes, I learned about inflation when I was 7 years old, thanks. Obviously that's not the same as losing 20% of it's value in a day.
43. Re:No value at all by sjames · 2018-06-13 15:22 · Score: 1
  
  Not always. If you and some other guy are starving and help is weeks away, good luck buying the last burger from him with your gold.
44. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 16:33 · Score: 0
  
  Again, the US dollar likewise has no intrinic utilty. If the mechanics of bitcoin's scarcity being tied to math and encryption doesn't count, then the fact that all those US soldier are paid in US dollars doesn't count either.
  But they both count. The US dollar is strong, for a whole variety of reasons, and I can trust that certain people will accept bitcoins as a form of payment.
  Government must accept payments of debts in USD. Government does not have to accept bitcoin regardless of scarcity and effort to produce. USD has a built in value. Bitcoin does not as nobody is required to accept bitcoin. They may choose to but there is no requirement.
45. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 01:30 · Score: 0
  
  Except I won't accept an entire countries crypto wealth as payment. But I will take silver and gold.
  If your crypt currency is so valuable, then prove it. Go to Walmart and buy something. Any size, any value, but do it with a crypto currency, ANY crypto currency.
  If your unable, then it just proves the point that it really has no value.
46. Re:No value at all by Drethon · 2018-06-14 01:45 · Score: 1
  
  Except I won't accept an entire countries crypto wealth as payment. But I will take silver and gold.
  If your crypt currency is so valuable, then prove it. Go to Walmart and buy something. Any size, any value, but do it with a crypto currency, ANY crypto currency.
  If your unable, then it just proves the point that it really has no value.
  I said electronic money, not crypto currency. Go to Walmart and try to buy something with gold and silver and see what happens, but they will take digital ones and zeros in the form of credit cards all day long. Does that prove gold and silver has no value?
47. Re:No value at all by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 02:16 · Score: 1
  
  "Real value" is in the eye of the beholder. Approximately 7 billion people seem to be just fine with the "real value" of paper money, and could give a rat's ass that Neanderthals whine about fiat currencies.
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
48. Re:No value at all by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 02:21 · Score: 1
  
  And yet how many people have lost their Bitcoins. How many scams have we heard of in it's short existence? It's going to be a while before the general public is going to gain confidence that measures are in place to prevent these things before they're ready to adopt crypto on a daily use basis.
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
49. Re:No value at all by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 02:25 · Score: 1
  
  If someone screws around with your payment in dollars, you can take them to court, or get US law enforcement evolved. Who exactly do you have covering your ass with Bitcoin?
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
50. Re:No value at all by HeckRuler · 2018-06-14 05:21 · Score: 1
  
  You realize that Visa just eats the cost of credit card fraud and passes it on to merchants, right? Last year was $16 Billion. B. Billion. YEARLY. In the US. (But, that's all identify theft).
  Now, Visa (and credit cards as a whole) is a monetary system. No doubt about it. A privately run monetary system that charges merchants the right to accept money, and takes a slice of every transaction. Anyone with your number can go to nearly any store online in any country and spend YOUR money. But Visa is pretty good about identifying fraud, forgiving the customer, and then just eating it. LIKEWISE, anyone with the key to your bitcoins can simply take your money, but there's no-one taxing all the merchants in the world to offset it.
  
  before they're ready to adopt crypto on a daily use basis.
  I honestly don't see that happening. It's pretty trivial to make phone transfers, or something that works like a credit card (And then a massive rollout for merchants to switch their PoS systems, which is happening with Google and Apple's pay by phone systems). But the transaction times would have to come down to seconds. Which isn't going to happen for bitcoin, and probably any other crypto that gets popular. Maybe if there was a culture of "I'll trust this $5 action will clear eventually, go on your way". But... hell dude, it works GREAT for Internet purchases. They don't ship till it clears. Easy peasy. There's really nothing in the way of Amazon accepting bitcoin... you know, other than the wildly fluctuating value.
51. Re:No value at all by HeckRuler · 2018-06-14 05:35 · Score: 1
  
  ....The COURT.
  The court doesn't care if the contract stipulates payment in cash, cows, gold, barrels of oil, securities, or rick-roll-memes. Someone screws you, you can take them to court. Let me make that clear: You can sue anyone for anything.
  If someone breaks into your house and steals your cat, it's not like the police are going to tell "tough shit, cats aren't made of US cash, so you can pound sand". Now, if you somehow give your credit card number to someone online and they start spending your money, the police WILL likely tell you to pound sand as they're laughably unprepared to handle cybercrime. But hey, they'll file a case. Wheeeee. Good luck taking an IP address to court. Even if they make a fraudulent US bank transfer, and steal your certified, totally-real, US dollars, you ain't got NO ONE covering your ass. Not the court, not the police, that money is more than likely JUST GONE.
52. Re:No value at all by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 06:07 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think your comment on credit card fraud is relevant from a consumer point of view since they don't feel any direct impact. If they use Bitcoin, they don't have that protection that you mentioned. So, again, why would the general public care about any crypto currency until it becomes more secure/easy to use?
  Point taken on the transaction times...I agree.
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
53. Re:No value at all by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry, I don't have experience with it, so it was an honest question.
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
54. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 08:21 · Score: 0
  
  Thanks for not being one of those dumbasses insisting ahistorically that Africa has "always been a slave society". As grim (and as utterly unlikely) as your prediction is, at least it's not racist.
55. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 09:53 · Score: 0
  
  There were still enough other people at the time willing to use bitcoin to transfer their wealth to you. Every day there are fewer people who are both willing to and have any money left.
  Personally, I'd rather do more than that to earn my money, and other than the very nice leather I don't even like Ferrari's much.
56. Re:No value at all by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 13:33 · Score: 0
  
  Now you're just making things up. If someone fraudulently takes money out of my account and the bank didn't follow due process when releasing the money they sure as shit will have to refund me, regardless if it's only an IP address. Someone fraudulently uses my Visa card and I do get reimbursed. One of the great things about regulation. No, dollars and crypto are not as safe (or otherwise) as each other.
57. Re:No value at all by pubwvj · 2018-06-15 00:33 · Score: 1
  
  I can't eat bitcoins.
  I can't build a house out of bitcoins.
  I can't drive a bitcoin down the road.
  I can't breed bitcoins to make more bitcoins.
  Bitcoins don't keep me warm.
  Although, the bitcoin mining machine will keep you warm but that is a side effect of burning electricity that must be paid for and the computer must be paid for and the house must be paid for that contains the mine.
58. Re:No value at all by pubwvj · 2018-06-15 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  "Complete bullshit. The only real value is what somebody is willing to pay for something."
  Real value means I can do something with the thing other than trade it. For instance, beans can feed me, firewood can heat my home, a tractor is a tool I can use to do things with, a pig can be bred to produce piglets and thus more pigs that will grow on my pastures so that I can slaughter them and eat them and sell them. Those are all real values.
59. Re:No value at all by pubwvj · 2018-06-15 00:37 · Score: 1
  
  Conartistry... You're very good.
60. Re:No value at all by pubwvj · 2018-06-15 01:00 · Score: 1
  
  Nope. You're making assumptions.
  I never had bought nor sold any bitcoins.
61. Re:No value at all by lhunath · 2018-06-15 01:37 · Score: 1
  
  No sure what your point is.
  You can't eat gold, you can't build a house out of cows, you can't drive firewood down the road, you can't breed salt, beans don't keep you warm. What exactly are you trying to say? Everything generates value for different reasons. Bitcoin has its own, just like cows do, and neither are universally useful.
  
  --
  ``OK, so ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking, yeah?''
62. Re:No value at all by farble1670 · 2018-06-15 03:56 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, you completely invalidated my point. Whoosh?
63. Re:No value at all by pubwvj · 2018-06-15 14:10 · Score: 1
  
  If I understood correctly you were saying I trade in bitcoins. I don't. Ergo you are wrong. Whoosh yourself.
64. Re:No value at all by farble1670 · 2018-06-15 15:23 · Score: 1
  
  If I understood correctly you were saying I trade in bitcoins. I don't. Ergo you are wrong. Whoosh yourself.
  You are either retarded or being deliberately obtuse. Either way, bye.
65. Re:No value at all by HeckRuler · 2018-06-15 16:14 · Score: 1
  
  Someone tells your bank to move some money. Bank verifies it's you because only you would know your password and/or your pets name and what street you were born on. But it was not you. Regardless, bank has successfully followed due process as stated in that form you signed and never read when making an account, and you're fucked.
  Someone frauds your visa card, and TYPICALLY Visa will reimburse you. Usually it's pretty simple. When it's not and for whatever reason Visa doesn't want to give away money, it surprisingly comes down to how much you bitch and moan at them. Regardless, the merchants eat the cost through higher transaction fees. What are they going to do? NOT accept Visa, that's a laugh.
  
  No, dollars and crypto are not as safe (or otherwise) as each other.
  Correct. Assuming you can properly handle your keys, crypto is much more safe. Assuming you can restrain yourself and not fall into debt, Visa credit is much more safe (unless you're the merchant).
"Researchers" by SuperKendall · 2018-06-13 04:51 · Score: 0

And how do we know these "researchers" are not artificially pushing down the price of Bitcoin now...
It's true Bitcoin is really volatile, but it could also be true that it has long term viability especially as there are a lot of people who want currencies not tied to a particular country.
Good news for all though, this should hopefully bring down the GPU prices again!

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Re:"Researchers" by ISayWeOnlyToBePolite · 2018-06-13 05:47 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  And how do we know these "researchers" are not artificially pushing down the price of Bitcoin now...
  They are actually real researchers who have written a paper describing their findings. Previous to this they released a paper about manipulation of the VIX. To describe and expose asset manipulation publicly while being held to the standards of science is their career, and they are doing quite well. To suggest that they also secretly engage in asset manipulation seems far fetched at best.
2. Re:"Researchers" by DontBeAMoran · 2018-06-13 06:37 · Score: 1
  
  Bitcoin hasn't been mined with GPUs for years, how would it affect GPU prices?
  
  --
  #DeleteFacebook
3. Re:"Researchers" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:02 · Score: 0
  
  And how do we know these "researchers" are not artificially pushing down the price of Bitcoin now...
  Because: well-respected University.
4. Re:"Researchers" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:20 · Score: 0
  
  They are actually real researchers who have written a paper describing their findings. Previous to this they released a paper about manipulation of the VIX. To describe and expose asset manipulation publicly while being held to the standards of science is their career, and they are doing quite well. To suggest that they also secretly engage in asset manipulation seems far fetched at best.
  Keep in mind that there's a fair amount of correlation between cryptocurrency fanatics and the clowns that say science is bogus, so they may not consider researchers particularly compelling.
  They'd be more convinced if you said the FBI is artificially influencing the price... even with no evidence, since it fits with their craycrazy view of the world.
5. Re:"Researchers" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:37 · Score: 0
  
  And how do we know these "researchers" are not artificially pushing down the price of Bitcoin now...
  Because the price is still greater than zero.
6. Re:"Researchers" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 10:11 · Score: 0
  
  If they can do that, that would be even more compelling evidence that the price is easily manipulated by a few bad actors.
7. Re:"Researchers" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:15 · Score: 0
  
  Bitcoin hasn't been mined with GPUs for years, how would it affect GPU prices?
  Alt coins are mined with GPUs. Alt coins are highly correlated to Bitcoin.
8. Re:"Researchers" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 05:19 · Score: 0
  
  but it muuuuuuuch easier than reading the paper and trying to understand the math. Not to mention how satisfying must feel to see the hidden game of those city smartasess.
  Welcome to the new normal.
It actually does by rsilvergun · 2018-06-13 04:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

it has the value of the drugs it's being used to buy and money laundering done with it. That's what formed the base of the Crypto currency market (with a smattering of ransomware and video game 'skin' gambling). A serious of transactions that needed to be kept off the books. It was only later Crypto currencies branched out into unregulated and unbacked securities (e.g. the "Proof of Stake" coins that have become so popular).

If you want to see Bitcoin's price _really_ tank legalize drugs, crack down on money laundering and kill the securities scams. It'll go back to a few bucks a coin while the rest of the currencies will be worthless.

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
1. Re:It actually does by ArchieBunker · 2018-06-13 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  That fact that you think Bitcoin is used for illegal things is a sure sign you're clueless. Bitcoin is not an anonymous currency. For all your untraceable things you use Monero.
  
  --
  Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
2. Re:It actually does by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:49 · Score: 0
  
  Better yet, use Dash.
3. Re:It actually does by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:54 · Score: 0
  
  Used bitcoin to buy drugs. Got high. Still no visit from the Feds. A++ would buy again.
4. Re:It actually does by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:55 · Score: 0
  
  If you want to see Bitcoin's price _really_ tank legalize drugs, crack down on money laundering and kill the securities scams. It'll go back to a few bucks a coin while the rest of the currencies will be worthless.
  
  Baloney. I'm actually a crypto-currency supporter, but even I'll be the first to admit the current price is all because people are all speculating on Bitcoin to be an common currency, or they're just speculating on the price going up further because it went up in the past. If you listen to these idiots on Reddit, it's all this irrational exhuberance, buy the dip, etc. No real analysis whatsoever, just "hodl!!!". Any contrary information is filtered out or downvoted. The price will plummet as soon as people start to lose confidence in it. There's simply no way the billion dollars a day is all illegal drug activity. Look at the daily transactions in USD:
  https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd
  The big spikes in activity are all around around when the value goes up. That's all speculative transactions, not drug transactions.
  Drugs and other illegal activity have a role to play, but they more reflect the price in perhaps 2012-2013, when bitcoin was much smaller.
5. Re:It actually does by GameboyRMH · 2018-06-13 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  The fact that you think Bitcoin isn't used for illegal things in spite of its lack of built-in anonymity features is a sure sign that you're being obtuse. Early darknet black markets primarily used Bitcoin. You don't need to provide a name or address to have a wallet.
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
6. Re:It actually does by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:24 · Score: 0
  
  Rainbow Dash?
7. Re:It actually does by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:48 · Score: 0
  
  I think that legalizing drugs should do most of the work. Cracking down on money laundering will never happen because politicians have a piece of that. As to securities scams, well, the dumbdumbs will run out of money eventually, so that'll die out on its own.
8. Re:It actually does by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 01:07 · Score: 0
  
  I 100% agree with you on Bitcoin. It even says it's not anonymous right on the web page.
  But Monero has a single point of failure (its creators), and when government goons point guns at them
9. Re:It actually does by thegarbz · 2018-06-14 09:13 · Score: 1
  
  it has the value of the drugs it's being used to buy and money laundering done with it.
  No it doesn't because the prices of those drugs got adjusted with varying values of bitcoin. That's precisely the problem, the only thing bitcoin was pegged to was the value of traditional currencies against which it was traded.
10. Re: It actually does by Arunex · 2018-06-19 00:02 · Score: 1
  
  bitcoin's only use is speculation in fact
Shocked! by Hognoxious · 2018-06-13 04:54 · Score: 1

Shocked, shocked is anyone?

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 04:58 · Score: 0

artificially inflated you say? how could that possibly happen?
Just like video cards thanks F***ing miners! by Joe_Dragon · 2018-06-13 04:58 · Score: 0

Just like video cards thanks F***ing miners!
1. Re:Just like video cards thanks F***ing miners! by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 03:37 · Score: 1
  
  You shoulda bought stock in Micron like I did.
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
Disagree by bjdevil66 · 2018-06-13 05:04 · Score: 1

Value is a perceived desire within someone for something.
So based on your list of valuable things.. Did you post this from 1840's rural Minnesota?
1. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:14 · Score: 0
  
  Correct. That was Laura Ingalls Wilder.
Well, at least some non-fraud profit in BC by gweihir · 2018-06-13 05:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is an excellent research opportunity into how unregulated markets will be manipulated. I am glad to see somebody took it.

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
1. Re:Well, at least some non-fraud profit in BC by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:24 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah..... There's over billions in fraud that happened due to all the laundering of the massive piles of Euros that were ransacked from ATMs last year. About the same time that was happening Bitcoin started it's climb.
  Could be a massive coincidence... or just laundering billions.
Hyperinflation by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:14 · Score: 0

During times of hyper inflation of currencies, people run out and hoard food, consumer durables (washing machines for example), cars, and other necessities.
BitCoin and other cryptocurrencies are just too abstracted from any real economic activity. In other words, they have no worth other than as a gambling medium.
I can win/buy a shit load of chips in a casino and cash them in for real money too - or even a room and food.
Pity the fool.. by h8sg8s · 2018-06-13 05:16 · Score: 1

Pity the fool who jumped in at $15k expecting a rocket ride to riches..

--
Organization? You must be joking..
1. Re:Pity the fool.. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:53 · Score: 0
  
  I pity the no coiner more. The guy who bought at $15k will do just as well as the guy who bought at $800 on the way down in 2014 if he's patient.
  By the way, this study is exactly wrong. The price has been artificially deflated this year, and the market will correct upward at some point.
2. Re:Pity the fool.. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:26 · Score: 0
  
  The price has been artificially deflated this year, and the market will correct upward at some point.
  Lolwhut ?
  So you're saying "the market" will correct itself back to its previous artificially inflated price ?
  Sounds like someone who bought into Bitcoin at its peak and refuses to acknowledge their gamble was way too late in the game.
3. Re: Pity the fool.. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:29 · Score: 0
  
  We call it wishful thinking ;)
Welcome to the Modern World by mschwanke97402 · 2018-06-13 05:23 · Score: 1

It was clear to me from the outset that Crypto-Coins were even funnier money than government fiat currency. Now we see that the eCoins are rather more susceptible to all sorts of fudgery.
1. Re:Welcome to the Modern World by jythie · 2018-06-13 06:08 · Score: 1
  
  Smaller the pool, the easier it is for wealthy parties to manipulate it. I wish I could remember the actual events, but I can recall years ago in class we went over case studies of firms or even individuals able to manipulate the currencies of small/poor nations. Cryptocurrency, even all the coins put together, is still well within the range of what well financed individuals can screw with and fleece other investors.
2. Re:Welcome to the Modern World by mschwanke97402 · 2018-06-13 08:58 · Score: 1
  
  Smaller the pool, the easier it is for wealthy parties to manipulate it. I wish I could remember the actual events, but I can recall years ago in class we went over case studies of firms or even individuals able to manipulate the currencies of small/poor nations. Cryptocurrency, even all the coins put together, is still well within the range of what well financed individuals can screw with and fleece other investors.
  My point is that in the modern age, with electronic coins, people can manipulate the exchanges directly via hacking, exploiting the coin's algorithms, etc. Yes, it is clear that many of the crypto-currencies are basically closely held by a few individuals or organizations and can be easily manipulated by old-school brute force financial trickery too,
3. Re:Welcome to the Modern World by iggymanz · 2018-06-13 13:54 · Score: 1
  
  some thing has been done in metals markets too, there is nothing about crypto-currency markets that is special
4. Re:Welcome to the Modern World by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  Yup...
  https://www.investopedia.com/a...
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
Just like LIBO by ve3oat · 2018-06-13 05:23 · Score: 2

We all remember LIBO, right? The London Interbank Offered Rate. One of the causes of the 2008 bank crash, especially in Europe. Same thing -- under the table manipulation of a rate by a few key players for their own benefit. It can and will happen in any unregulated market. Just finished reading "Open Secret" by Erin Arvedlund, 2014, ISBN 978-1-59184-668-0. "The global banking conspiracy that swindled investors out of billions". I would recommend it highly. Cryptocurrency investors, watch out!
Color me surprised by Notabadguy · 2018-06-13 05:23 · Score: 1

Raise your hand if you're surprised.
YOU DON'T FUCKING SAY? by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 05:25 · Score: 0

I'm sorry, but while some people may be able to luck some money out of cryptocurrency, the long game is an idiot's game. If *nothing* else, the most basic problem with the entire currency is that it is essentially still tied to your identity, unlike cash, because you have to provide your information (even your tax information) in order to transfer funds into the currency... *and* you are severely limited on your ability to pull money out. If something terrible happens and you're like "shit, I need to get my ten million bucks worth out", what good is it when you can only take out $500 to $2,000 per day? By the time you can withdraw all of your currency and make actual use of it, it'll have dropped to nothing.
Don't rule out government's intervention by mi · 2018-06-13 05:29 · Score: 0

The Great Simoleon Caper — written in 1995 (!) — is a cautionary tale...
Discrediting an alternative currency, which the government can not control, to protect their own fiat papers is the motive. As for the means — recall the NSA buying computing power by the acres...

--
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
1. Re:Don't rule out government's intervention by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:41 · Score: 0
  
  Proof positive!!!!!!!
  No wait, that's a piece of fiction written by Neal Stephenson. It doesn't really prove anything.
  It's so easy to make up conspiracies if you don't offer any real proof.
  Not that you necessarily wanted to just blow funny smelling smoke...
2. Re:Don't rule out government's intervention by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · 2018-06-13 10:22 · Score: 1
  
  Discrediting an alternative currency, which the government can not control, to protect their own fiat papers is the motive. As for the means â" recall the NSA buying computing power by the acres...
  If the US government decides to bring down bitcoin via sustained 51% attacks then bitcoin is going down. It's not a "discrediting" it's literal destruction of the currency's functionality. Much the same way as if the US government decided to bring down the currency of some small nation by conquering it.
  Now, I think both of those unlikely. But they are both well within their capabilities.
  
  --
  Your ad here. Ask me how!
3. Re:Don't rule out government's intervention by mi · 2018-06-13 11:18 · Score: 1
  
  Destroying it may be too much — and will stink, if the attempt (successful or not) becomes known. Discrediting is far more subtle and easier to deny, yet achieves the same goal. Oh, and it also allows a few people with advance knowledge to make a tidy profit...
  Of course, I have no proof, but it is obvious, there is motive and there is capability...
  
  --
  In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
4. Re:Don't rule out government's intervention by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · 2018-06-14 02:58 · Score: 1
  
  Well, the number of 51% attacks is apparently non-zero and increasing...
  
  --
  Your ad here. Ask me how!
5. Re:Don't rule out government's intervention by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 03:48 · Score: 1
  
  It's okay, you're safe under that tinfoil hat. NSA doesn't do squat with currency.
  
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  Just another day in Paradise
Pump And Dump by ComputerGeek01 · 2018-06-13 05:34 · Score: 3

It's almost as if investment stuff is regulated for a reason: https://www.investopedia.com/t...
1. Re:Pump And Dump by DCFusor · 2018-06-13 11:02 · Score: 0
  
  Maybe they'll make some new rules about this one - like they had to do after George Soros manipulated the BoE and "broke it" with now illegal trades. Oh, did George just say he was getting into bitcoin a little while back? Progs need a new hero if George is the best they can do - ask his home country or the fellow Jews he helped the Nazis round up before next you take his buck to protest the government. He makes even the worst loser we have look angelic - and readily admits he DID meddle in our elections via his "foundations".
  
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  Why guess when you can know? Measure!
No Fucking Shit Sherlock by Khyber · 2018-06-13 05:37 · Score: 1

Anyone that watched the buy/hold/sell orders on any exchange knew that was what was happening.

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Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Not quite by slashmydots · 2018-06-13 05:46 · Score: 1

It was much higher than the 10 month turnaround on equipment + electricity which has been the norm for a very long time. BUT it was almost exclusively due to idiots in Wall Street dumping money into it when the SEC said they could mixed with idiots reacting to idiots on Wall Street doing this.
Scams in cryptocurrencies? by Luthair · 2018-06-13 06:10 · Score: 1

Thats unpossible.
Re: FAKE NEWS! THAT WOULD BE HIGHLY ILLEGAL! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:13 · Score: 0

Just another method of manipulation. They should investigate the authors for price manipulation
Pump and dump by wbr1 · 2018-06-13 06:20 · Score: 1

Pump and dump - it's not just for hookers anymore.

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Silence is a state of mime.
I am shocked, shocked! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:25 · Score: 0

You mean the bitcoin market is manipulated?
So... buy low? by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:27 · Score: 0

So what you're telling me is that large institutional investors allocated large sums of capitol to buy market assets when their prices dropped? What could possibly have possessed them to pursue this novel investment strategy?! Next thing you're going to tell me is that people are selling assets when their prices rise!!
It's Tulips all the way down..... by Tulsa_Time · 2018-06-13 06:36 · Score: 0

to Zero.

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5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
Google "Layering" by rsilvergun · 2018-06-13 06:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

why do you think there are so many crypto currencies now? You buy Monero with cash and then Ethereum with your Monero and maybe two or three other currencies in there and then finally buy some bitcoin and cash it out. That's how you do the money laundering.

As for buying drugs with bitcoin, yeah, and lots of folks get caught. Lots of folks don't. Right now in a lot of the world drug laws are selectively enforced. In America if you're middle class or above and white you can pretty much do drugs with impunity. Depending on your jurisdiction you can do drugs if your black as long as you stick to your side of town.

Our drug policy is how we enforce racial segregation in the parts of the country that want it. It's also how we bust up groups of young people when they start protesting for change. This isn't me making crap up either. Nixon's old aids admitted to it.

--
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1. Re:Google "Layering" by farble1670 · 2018-06-13 09:57 · Score: 1
  
  Nixon's old aids admitted to it.
  Good thing Nixon's aids aren't running the country right now.
2. Re:Google "Layering" by ET3D · 2018-06-13 18:33 · Score: 2
  
  The main reason there are so many cryptocurrencies is that it's easier to make money off a new currency than an old one. If a coin takes off, early adopters make a lot of money.
3. Re:Google "Layering" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 20:36 · Score: 0
  
  you so clueless don't know why there are so many cryptocurrencies?
  easy enough: everyone wants to pull the same scam private banks have been doing with fiat money for a century
4. Re:Google "Layering" by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 00:36 · Score: 1
  
  I'm gonna call your post racist. Primarily because you clearly think we're still living in the 60s.
  
  --
  Just another day in Paradise
Re:FAKE NEWS! THAT WOULD BE HIGHLY ILLEGAL! by DontBeAMoran · 2018-06-13 06:39 · Score: 1

The only crypto-currency that is guaranteed to keep its value is Dogecoin. Since the beginning, one Dogecoin has always had a value of one Dogecoin.

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#DeleteFacebook
Nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:51 · Score: 0

When silver ran up from $20 to $50 recently, that was done through manipulation too, probably by the major banks. The U.S. government looked the other way.
For easily launderable money by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 06:52 · Score: 0

Use quarters. They are easy to buy and sell and you can launder them with soap and water.
1. Re:For easily launderable money by Hallux-F-Sinister · 2018-06-13 11:50 · Score: 1
  
  Use quarters. They are easy to buy and sell and you can launder them with soap and water.
  While cleaning coins does not (up to the point where they are unrecognizable) alter their face-value, it does reduce their numismatic value, and every coin collector and dealer, as well as every publication I've ever seen on the subject, strongly disrecommends doing so. For example...
  
  --
  Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
Investors? by HeckRuler · 2018-06-13 07:00 · Score: 1

Bitcoin.

rather than real demand from investors
Investors in... bitcoin. You've ready entered crazy town. It's an internet currency. People speculating on it are already nuts. The fact that things are crazy in crazy town isn't shocking at all. And frankly it doesn't subtract from it's utility. IF you get $50 worth of bitcoin, do your transactions, and then sell your coins for cash, bitcoin still does it's job. Cheaper, faster, more secure international money transfers. ...And laundering. That too.
1. Re:Investors? by thedarb · 2018-06-13 09:09 · Score: 1
  
  Word.
  
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All cryptocurrencies are scams by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 07:11 · Score: 0

Are (any) fiat-currency and (any) cryptocurrency really equivalent, as cryptocurrency fans claim?
For example, US Dollar and Bitcoin are really equals?
Value/validity/authorization of US dollar is provided/guaranteed by US Government (and in-turn whole US Public)!
Also, not to mention, US Dollars in any US Bank is insured by US Government!
What authorization/guarantee/insurance is behind Bitcoin? Nothing!
Sorry but that is the end of discussion then!
Why do you think Satoshi Nakamoto is really hiding his identity, if Bitcoin is really such a great innovation?
He is just someone does not like media/fan attention?
Or, could it be really because Bitcoin (and all cryptocurrencies followed it) are actually Ponzi Schemes?
(So he knew very well that law enforcement would come after him sooner or later?!)
If so-called cryptocurrencies are really good innovation, why they attract so many criminals/criminal activity?
Could it really be because, all cryptocurrencies themselves are scams, and that is why they attract all kinds of criminals/criminal activity?
If so-called cryptocurrencies are really currency, why no company/store can use Bitcoin as currency anymore?
Because the price of Bitcoin proved to be extremely unstable to use as a currency?
Would the result be different, if Bitcoin replaced by any other "cryptocurrency"?
Aren't all work the same way?
If so-called cryptocurrencies are really money; isn't people issuing their own money, illegal already, in all countries?
If so then, why they are still not banned in all countries?
Or, they are not actually virtual currency but virtual investment?
But, if they are actually investment, why we need/want them?
What would happen to world economy, if people invested in virtual investments, instead of real investments?
Or, all so-called cryptocurrencies are actually just a modified (made decentralized and paying variable interest) Ponzi Schemes?
(Price of cryptocurrencies would keep increasing in the long term (by their design), so it is equivalent of paying variable interest to all long term investors.)
Also, since all so-called cryptocurrencies are actually financial scams (Ponzi Schemes), that means, they cannot be the solution for any of existing financial problems of our world!
As more and more people invest in cryptocurrencies, it will become harder and harder to ban their trading everywhere (because people invested in cryptocurrencies, would try to stop anyone trying to ban cryptocurrencies)!
All cryptocurrencies need to be banned globally before it is too late!
So what? by Zorpheus · 2018-06-13 07:20 · Score: 1

What exactly is the problem here? They bought bitcoins when they were cheaper. This seems totally normal to me. Even if it was with the intent to push the prices up, isn't that also done with everything? Three central banks do that for sure. And if rising prices animate others to buy something without intrinsic value then it's their fault I would say.
Malice vs. Incompetence by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:11 · Score: 0

I would have guessed that idiots buying bitcoin was enough to explain the prices. The claimed explanation is bittersweet, since criminals losing more money than I thought is balanced out by idiots losing less money than I thought.
Re: HODL by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 08:44 · Score: 0

Laugh all you want, but I'll be a bazillionaire in 5 years, so I'll have the last laugh. HODL! /s
No shit. by thedarb · 2018-06-13 09:08 · Score: 1

The entire thing is a get rich quick scam of one form or another. Really, why would you invest in this stuff?

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1. Re: No shit. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 12:37 · Score: 0
  
  Sorry you missed one of a few chances of a lifetime. No I didn't get lambo rich off it. But I invested about this time last year and cashed out about a week after the peak in Dec. Made bank and now I'm debt free thanks to Bitcoin
And it'll be artificially deflated when... by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 09:20 · Score: 0

And it'll be artificially deflated when any country bans the currency, as we've seen before. Bitcoin is too easy to manipulate. No regulation, go figure...
Surprising absolutely no one by sjbe · 2018-06-13 10:21 · Score: 1, Insightful

A concentrated campaign of price manipulation may have accounted for at least half of the increase in the price of Bitcoin and other big cryptocurrencies last year,

Just say it. It's a Ponzi scheme. Admit it and you'll feel better.
If you are an honest believer in cryptocurrencies I admire your earnest faith in humanity but virtually everything about cryptocurrences virtually screams scam to anyone with a functioning brain and any sense of skepticism. It is nothing more than a bunch of greedy people trying to make a fast buck from credulous fools using the latest financial fad.
1. Re:Surprising absolutely no one by iggymanz · 2018-06-13 13:48 · Score: 1
  
  eh, same things done with metals like gold and silver too...no difference
  doesn't matter what the market's good/currency is, can be done in all of them
2. Re:Surprising absolutely no one by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  The vast majority of civilization doesn't treat currency as an investment. Sure there are folks that do, but they are a tiny fraction of 1%. Until there's some price stabilization, buying and selling crypto currency will put you at the mercy of the wild swings in value, not something that most of the public or businesses care to be involved with.
  
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  Just another day in Paradise
Securities fraud is what by sjbe · 2018-06-13 10:25 · Score: 1

What exactly is the problem here?

Please go research what a Ponzi scheme is and maybe you'll comprehend. Then go research Pump and dump. Finally try to understand the meaning of the term securities fraud.

Even if it was with the intent to push the prices up, isn't that also done with everything?
No it isn't.
1. Re: Securities fraud is what by Zorpheus · 2018-06-13 18:23 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe you just don't know how stocks work.
2. Re: Securities fraud is what by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 22:46 · Score: 0
  
  Pump and Dump is illegal and can easily get you jail time, since you are an expert at stock trading I assume that you were already aware of that but apparently not.
3. Re: Securities fraud is what by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-15 08:01 · Score: 0
  
  fuck off you god damn idiot - go suck putin's dick some more to pay off your bitcoin gambling debt
Childs play by sjbe · 2018-06-13 10:28 · Score: 1

Cryptocurrency, even all the coins put together, is still well within the range of what well financed individuals can screw with and fleece other investors.
The British Pound is well within the range of what well financed individuals and hedge funds can screw with. Bitcoin and other so called cryptocurrencies are childs play by comparison.
Value depends solely on belief by sjbe · 2018-06-13 10:33 · Score: 1

Real currencies are debt backed.
Not really they aren't. What every currency and every asset for that matter are backed by is nothing more than belief. People believe it has value and so it does. Usually there is some rationality to this belief but not always. You cannot explain the price of gold based on any sort of rational valuation. (Which is why a gold standard is a stupid idea) You can say a currency is backed by something but all you are doing in that case is making a derivative and the value still ultimately depends on belief in the value of the underlying asset. (which again is why a gold standard is a stupid idea)
Cryptocurrencies are stupid for many reasons but not because of what they are (or aren't) backed by.
Thank Goodness ! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 10:34 · Score: 1

All my money is safe in BitConnect.
1. Re:Thank Goodness ! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 01:01 · Score: 0
  
  It's safely under the control of the people that run BitConnect, and even more safely under the control of the government goons that point guns at the BitConnect creators.
  No Crypto is safe.
Yay ! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 10:37 · Score: 0

Flutter Shy is more stable,
although Apple Jack has more Stables.
1. Re:Yay ! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 14:34 · Score: 0
  
  Fluttershy is more stable
  I mean, on the one hand Fluttershy has a nervous breakdown about every other episode, but on the other when RD flips out there's much more collateral damage.
Track the nets... by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 10:39 · Score: 0

See all those servers in Virgina ?
yah... just saying.
Do you think a global information network is really private ?
Al Gore didn't build the intertubes that way...
Samsung Pay Apple Pay etc. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 10:50 · Score: 0

Many more faster and more stable systems a
come built in to every new phone...
NFC, Android & Apple makes bitcoin completely obsolete.
No, by rsilvergun · 2018-06-13 10:57 · Score: 1

but their successors are. That's blindingly obvious enough I really shouldn't have to point it out...

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1. Re:No, by farble1670 · 2018-06-13 11:26 · Score: 1
  
  but their successors are. That's blindingly obvious enough I really shouldn't have to point it out...
  But really, telling people they are retards when they don't agree with you, how's that working? Educating a lot of folks? Changing peoples' minds much? Converting people to your way of thinking?
2. Re: No, by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 14:46 · Score: 0
  
  Do you think the moon landing was faked?
  911 the buildings didnâ(TM)t fall?
  Russians stole the election with 100k in fb ads?
  What other fabulous things do you imagine every day before breakfast?
In other news by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-13 13:53 · Score: 0

the sky is blue and Antarctica is still cold.
Didn't call you a retard by rsilvergun · 2018-06-13 16:24 · Score: 1

I said you were ignoring a blindingly obvious point. I didn't say why you were ignoring it. There's probably no converting you. You're either a professional troll or someone like me: completely beaten into the ground by life and lashing out. I lash out from the left with hope for the future. You're doing it from the right with hope that it all burns. I can't convert you, you're too far gone. What I can do is keep your kind from doing any more harm.

--
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1. Re:Didn't call you a retard by farble1670 · 2018-06-14 08:47 · Score: 1
  
  There's probably no converting you.
  Dude this isn't about beliefs, it's about your inability to make a coherent argument. FTR I don't disagree with your points.
  If you think today's admin is doing X, just say it and provide some temporally relevant evidence. But saying the admin of 50+ years ago did it, and expecting people to take that as evidence that it's going on today? I mean, maybe there is some link between Nixon's admin and Trump's, but it isn't well known for sure and expecting the reader to make that leap is ridiculous.
  
  Our drug policy is how we enforce racial segregation .... This isn't me making crap up either. Nixon's old aids admitted to it.
  It's like if I said, "Our society is racist, George Washington admitted to having slaves." Does you the latter part of that sentence support the first?
  
  I can't convert you, you're too far gone. What I can do is keep your kind from doing any more harm.
  As a side, overreacting like a nutjob to anyone that criticizes you doesn't help you win over the reader.
Re:FAKE NEWS! THAT WOULD BE HIGHLY ILLEGAL! by mydn · 2018-06-13 19:36 · Score: 1

I deeply regret my lack of mod points.
What part of "Distributed" are you missing by DrYak · 2018-06-13 21:59 · Score: 1

A serious of transactions that needed to be kept off the books.
Off the books ? Using a system with a distributed public ledger ? (which can by design be checked and controlled by all nodes of the network ?)
Somebody hasn't been paying attention to *what* bitcoin protocole was designed for.
The main point isn't off the books. It's pretty much the opposite : it ends up in everyone's book by design.
The main point is that there isn't (in theory, though in practice some mining pools are becoming worrying) a single central authority.
There's no "Bitcoin Inc." that you can sue to make transaction stop.
In the drugs' case : even if you've been buying drugs, there's no bank that can be sued because they helped an illegal transaction and there's no way to freeze the transaction.
(As a counter example, one of the first big push for crypto-currencies was when Visa and Mastercard companies decided to freeze donations to Wikileaks. This is the exact kind of thing which bitcoin protocol makes impossible because there's no single entity that could enforce such freeze. You would have to persuade the majority of the nodes on the network to refuse the transaction successfully)

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"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Making crime easy by sjbe · 2018-06-13 23:25 · Score: 1

eh, same things done with metals like gold and silver too...no difference
Oh but there are some very big and important differences. Not the least of which is that you don't have to handle and exchange a hunk of metal.

doesn't matter what the market's good/currency is, can be done in all of them
In principle yes but some crimes are far more elegant and easy to get away with than others. Cryptocurrency is a criminal's wet dream. Hard to trace, hard to restrict, no physical object to handle, crosses borders easily, confused and conflicted to non existent regulations, fairly easy to convert to other currencies or assets, and a bunch of greedy fools clamoring to get rich quick using it. You couldn't design a better system for money laundering and facilitating illegal payments if you tried.
Shocking by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 00:29 · Score: 1

I'm shocked, shocked I say, that scammers would go to where the money is. Sure, I believe crypto currency is the way of the future, but I predict a lot of shenanigans before the general public feels comfortably safe in its usage.

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Just another day in Paradise
Just another FIAT by Anonymous Coward · 2018-06-14 00:55 · Score: 0

Bitcoin is nothing but another fiat. For those that think spending money on electricity as proof of computational work is somehow value that goes into your own hands instead of an electric company, you are completely clueless.
Imagine if I showed up ad your front door, hot, sweaty with an axe in my hand because I just got done cutting and stacking a lot of wood and you can see the pile of wood behind me on the edge of the street. That's proof of work, so that means you should pay me right? Right after you do, then the Electric company comes along and grabs all the wood and drives off.
I never said it was YOUR'S.
There's no reason to implement a blockchain on anything unless the ones implementing it want to be in control of it. If you think you are independent of banks, you are about to get en eye opener, because if the banks don't already control BitCoin, then they will soon not accept it in the banks from Walmart, or Starbucks, and they will stop taking it because they can't do anything with it.
Crypto currencies are a way to seize control over you and your freedom.
Re:FAKE NEWS! THAT WOULD BE HIGHLY ILLEGAL! by dcw3 · 2018-06-14 03:41 · Score: 1

Is it pronounced like "doggie" or "dodgy? If the latter, why would someone buy into something like that...
dodgy /däj/
adjective
Britishinformal
adjective: dodgy; comparative adjective: dodgier; superlative adjective: dodgiest
dishonest or unreliable.
"a dodgy secondhand car salesman"
potentially dangerous.
"activities like these could be dodgy for your heart"
of low quality.

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Just another day in Paradise