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Volkswagen Fined One Billion Euros By German Prosecutors Over Emissions Cheating (reuters.com)

Volkswagen was fined one billion euros ($1.18 billion) over diesel emissions cheating in what amounts to one of the highest ever fines imposed by German authorities against a company, public prosecutors said on Wednesday. From a report: The German fine follows a U.S. plea agreement from January 2017 when VW agreed to pay $4.3 billion to resolve criminal and civil penalties for installing illegal software in diesel engines to cheat strict U.S. anti-pollution tests. "Following thorough examination, Volkswagen AG accepted the fine and it will not lodge an appeal against it. Volkswagen AG, by doing so, admits its responsibility for the diesel crisis and considers this as a further major step toward the latter being overcome," it said in a statement. The fine is the latest blow to Germany's auto industry which cannot seem to catch a break from the diesel emissions crisis. Germany's government on Monday ordered Daimler to recall nearly 240,000 cars fitted with illicit emissions-control devices, part of a total of 774,000 models affected in Europe as a whole.

116 comments

  1. Wrong link by divide+overflow · · Score: 1

    Link takes you to Reuters article "Fox shares pop ahead of expected Comcast bid"

  2. Proper link by divide+overflow · · Score: 4, Informative

    The proper link is here: https://www.reuters.com/articl...

    1. Re:Proper link by datavirtue · · Score: 0

      .....aaaaaand passed on to consumers. All corporate levies/taxes are paid by the consumer.

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    2. Re: Proper link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The boll will pay for it.

    3. Re:Proper link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes.... because consumers have no other place to buy cars. Oh wait.
      Maybe cars are a competitive market and VW will not be able to pass this straight to their customers.
      I take you are American, and as such not really familiar with competitive markets.

    4. Re: Proper link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you fine every car maker into oblivion there will be no competition.

  3. Probably not enough by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    I don't think this'll cover damages to folks health did to dirty air let alone be more than the profit they made cheating. Until we find them more than the money they made they're gonna keep doing this crap.

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    1. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmm ... only if you take the short term view. While the cheat did increase NOx emissions, those drop out of the atmosphere with rain. The cheat did, however, meaningfully decrease CO2 emissions and increased engine life, both of which are a net win for the environment in the 10-10,000 year perspectives.

      As to "the profit they made cheating" ... well, meeting both the emissions standards and CAFE standards with cars Americans are willing to buy is right on the edge of impossible. Physics is a bitch, and she trumps human legislation.

    2. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think this'll cover damages to folks health did to dirty air let alone be more than the profit they made cheating. Until we find them more than the money they made they're gonna keep doing this crap.

      I find it curious that when individual people do bad things, we tend to go to jail, at least fairly often, but when a company does bad things, seldom anyone goes to jail. There needs to be a point where crimes that hurt a lot of people that are caused by deliberate actions result in the people ultimately in charge going to jail.

    3. Re:Probably not enough by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Dirty air? Despite such cheating on emissions and an increase in car use, the air has gotten a hell of a lot cleaner in the past decades and continues to get cleaner still. You can't just claim damages due to "dirty air", at most you could claim damages for much dirtier the air has gotten due to Volkswagen not quite meeting the Euro-6 norm or whatever it is.

      With that said, a stiff fine is in order. But not like this. €1B to Germany, $4.3B to the US, then maybe another $1B by the state of California, $500M to the city of New York, €1.5B to France, €2B to Mexico, well, you get the picture. It's not in anyone's interest to cripple this company, and I would much rather have seen smaller fines plus some jail time for those responsible.

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    4. Re:Probably not enough by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Fining them won't be enough. In most cases the managers responsible will have moved on to other jobs and cashed their bonuses before the faeces gets ventilated.

      The US has it right in this case. Criminal charges against the people responsible.

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    5. Re:Probably not enough by amorsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can't just claim damages due to "dirty air"

      Of course you can. The air would have been much less polluted if Volkswagen and the others hadn't cheated.

      at most you could claim damages for much dirtier the air has gotten due to Volkswagen not quite meeting the Euro-6 norm or whatever it is.

      There is no "not quite" about it when we are talking about more than an order or magnitude. This is not astronomy.

      It's not in anyone's interest to cripple this company

      It is absolutely in my interest to cripple them. I have zero faith that they will not do the exact same thing the next time they think they can get away with it.

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    6. Re:Probably not enough by jimbolauski · · Score: 2

      How much did the average person's probability of having health problems increase due to VW's emissions being higher then advertised?

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    7. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is several orders of magnitude more than the damage done, especially if you consider that the affected cars have below-average NOx emissions compared to other Euro 5 cars.

    8. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what Germany is doing. However, unlike they US, they have an actual criminal investigation and fair trials, so it takes a bit longer.

    9. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Especially when you consider that all the other car makers that went a lot further got away with only voluntary recalls and most of them continue to sell cars that exceed emissions standards in the real world to this day.

    10. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it's not like they are employing more than half a million people and the suppliers that depend on them employ millions of people. Oh, wait...

    11. Re:Probably not enough by alvinrod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the issue has to do more with shared or diffused responsibility in groups. The larger the group, the less likely anyone is to get in trouble for it because it's more difficult to attribute the harm to any one person's action. It's the same in large religions or political groups when there's some kind of scandal. At best you might get one or two people thrown under the bus, but you're not even guaranteed that much.

      Should you automatically put the CEO in jail if they weren't responsible and had no part in the wrong doing? What if they were the person who noticed something was wrong and blew the whistle on the wrong doing?

      What about the more morally gray cases where the upper management is pushing hard for results and some of the underlings interpret these directives is creative, yet illegal or unethical ways? We can establish that the CEO might have ultimately caused the behavior, but they never asked for something illegal.

      We could further descend the ladder until we get the bottom rung where the CEO has a signed letter in blood telling everyone to kill and rape babies to increase profits where it's pretty clear that they need to go away for a long while. However, the point is that where in there is the line where you know exactly which people need to go to jail and which people don't?

      With an individual crime it's a lot easier for a jury to wrap their head around what happened and there are far fewer conflicting versions of events. Try to put a group on trial, and no one really knows who to trust when all of the fingers start getting pointed and there's always enough plausible deniability or presumption of innocence that it's a lot harder to get a jury to convict. Also, a large organization is going to have a lot of money to spend on lawyers. Much like a celebrity, they can afford the best legal talent so you're more likely to get away with murder, figuratively and likely literally as well.

    12. Re:Probably not enough by amorsen · · Score: 1

      The car industry is extremely competitive. The factories would not stay closed for long, competitors would take over.

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    13. Re:Probably not enough by caelst · · Score: 1

      "It is absolutely in my interest to cripple them. I have zero faith that they will not do the exact same thing the next time they think they can get away with it." So you take a company that is spread across the world supplying much more than just diesel cars, and cripple it.....? I admire your American attitude towards business but it does not work. Why not take a very successful company and work with it to improve on the obvious issues with the auto industry. This is an opportunity to make a change and create awareness.

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    14. Re:Probably not enough by amorsen · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what Germany is doing.

      I would be very interested in a citation for that. A quick Googling didn't turn up anything except US efforts.

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    15. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...which means that those who did the same things but did not acknowledge their responsibility would profit. How is that fair?

    16. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Then you must be exceptionally bad at using Google. The domestic criminal investigations against dozens of current and former VW employees has been all over the newspapers for the past two years.

    17. Re:Probably not enough by fazig · · Score: 4, Informative

      The bulk of “Dieselgate” lawsuits are being handled by prosecutors in Braunschweig where four separate sets of criminal proceedings are being conducted against current and former managers of VW, headquartered in nearby Wolfsburg.
      Some 39 individuals including Winterkorn are being investigated over suspected emissions fraud, with the former CEO also being probed for suspected market manipulation together with Hans Dieter Poetsch, the group’s former finance chief who is now supervisory board chairman, and Herbert Diess, now group CEO who joined the firm in July 2015 as head of the VW brand.

      Source: https://www.reuters.com/articl...

      Then we have one of the major German newspapers noting that Winterkorn stands to lose his entire financial existence.
      Source: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wir... (you may need a translator)

    18. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/fuel-economy/subaru-admits-it-manipulated-fuel-economy-and-emissions-data/ar-AAwBjcE?li=BBnb4R5

      Like this latest one. Should Subaru be sued into oblivion as well?

    19. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find the REA who signed off on the release, or configuration board which approved the change, or the programmer who checked it in. CMMI Level 1 isnâ(TM)t rocket science.

    20. Re:Probably not enough by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      It's not in anyone's interest to cripple this company

      Why not? Bankrupt the company. (Or don't if you think the crime wasn't extreme enough. But I have no problems with fines completely wiping a company out.)

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    21. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The compensation isn't defused. It's more concentrated at the top than ever, ostensibly because there is more responsibility. Fuck this diffused responsibility shit. Hang the fuckers. That's what they got paid for.

    22. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would suggest reading an article called the gervase effect, after Ricky Gervais from the office. Specifically read up on power talk and how it sheds responsibility, while implying something illegal.

    23. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely. VW is being made a scape goat and a spectacle, and I do not know why. The major air polluters are shipping, coal, glass-making, concrete factories... next to which all the cars in the world are relatively actually non-existant regarding air pollution. IMO, the regulations for diesel consumer vehicals are ridiculous at this point, having zero effect on the major air pollutors. VW cheated, lied, but this is not like Big Tobacco's lies. VW isn't killing people. They panicked and caved under unrealistic regulation pressure. Their cheating cars have effectively no significant effect on air quality. The fines are absurd, unless there is an irrational desire to cripple one of the best automakers in the world. Why?

    24. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are producing C02. Can I fine you for your respirating. Your parents produced you. Can I fine them too. Most liberals do in fact drive the automobiles that they soo hate. Why can we not also fine those people. Somehow White Westerners have come up with this idea that if we could only keep a tally of everything 'evil' and everything 'good' people ever did the world would be perfect.

      The world just does not work that way.

      I would love to throw all the white liberals who hate the so called white patriarchy into a place like El Salvador, and let them come back in 4 years changed people.

    25. Re:Probably not enough by seltener.name · · Score: 1

      Reason is - those companies have the money to by the politicians - people don't have. So comes that people are f*cked and screwed more and more.

    26. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It's not in anyone's interest to cripple this company [...]

      Oh, yes. My life would be much better without the likes of VW. Dunno about yours.

      They've been getting the free pass for years because they've implanted lobbyists in the middle of the very state institution in charge of controlling them.

    27. Re:Probably not enough by shilly · · Score: 1

      Depends on what you think the obvious issues are. To me, the obvious issues are that this company behaved in an exceptionally unethical manner, and both it and other companies in the same industry need a strong disincentive, or they will do the same again.

    28. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > El Salvador
      thank you Western intervention ! (that screwed up a whole lot of countries)

    29. Re:Probably not enough by dehachel12 · · Score: 1
    30. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a major German manufacturer. If it goes bankrupt, its market segment will be replaced by foreign manufacturers, and likely never recover.

      This creates a disincentive for the German government to act so harshly, in the same way as the U.S. government has a disincentive to cripple their own domestic software industry by punishing Microsoft or Google harshly.

    31. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While the cheat did increase NOx emissions, those drop out of the atmosphere with rain.

      ...as nitric acid, which is totally fine, right?

    32. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the issue has to do more with shared or diffused responsibility in groups. The larger the group, the less likely anyone is to get in trouble for it

      Which is why a small group of murderers are executed for 'conspiracy to murder', but the same does not happen in war. The proof is easy - all wearing the attacker's uniform is part of a very large conspiracy to murder / organized crime. But do we execute them all? Nope.

    33. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Employing millions of people does not excuse anything. Nazi Germany employed much more people than Volkswagen, and was destroyed anyway.

    34. Re:Probably not enough by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      There are grass-roots lobbying groups that are funded by regular individual citizens. Home School Legal Defense Association is one example. I can't imagine life without it. Actually I don't have to imagine...it would suck.

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    35. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being successful from cheating and lying does not make a reasonable approach to salvation. How about, stop being a fucking cuckold to corporate interests?

    36. Re:Probably not enough by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Yeah VW is the largest car company in the world. Too big to fail.

      --
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    37. Re:Probably not enough by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Car companies are not just discrete private enterprises. Governments have to have heavy industry available for possible world war. They protect them and other manufacturers.

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    38. Re:Probably not enough by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Back in 2000 friends and I would remove catalytic converters and other smog crap from VWs and have them tested at the smog stations. Never failed. Did it with other cars as well. Engines are so efficient these days that smog devices are likely just increasing fuel consumption.

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    39. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If anybody brought source control records as criminal evidence against one of my colleges, I'd file a brief in the case containing a transcript demonstration of forging source control history.

    40. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the fact that foreign car manufacturers aren't being punished at all, it is highly surprising that German prosecutors went all-in against the largest employer in the country.

    41. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing that is exceptional is the punishment.

    42. Re:Probably not enough by fish_sauce · · Score: 1

      Instead of putting someone in the company in jail you could ban the company from selling anything for 10 years or something like that. Punish what company wants which is money. Companies will think twice before doing something like that. If the company will go bankrupt due to the ban then so be it, they have themselves to blame.
      Jail is a harsh sentence for a person. People can die of old age in jail, they did it to themselves.
      Not being able to earn money is a harsh sentence for a company. Companies can go bankrupt due to sell ban, they did it to themselves.
      Seems fair and logical.

    43. Re:Probably not enough by fish_sauce · · Score: 1

      Right, people will lose their job. The company could be forced to pay just as normal until they cant any more during the ban.
      That is just how it is. No one said the world was not harsh.

    44. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how would you handle a situation like this, where every single company that makes a product in significant numbers did the same thing?

    45. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "A lot". = We don't know.

      How many had smoking Covariance?

      Almost all the studies.

    46. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Germany, a certain Japanese car maker advertises that their cars fulfill Euro-6 since 2012. So the technology IS there, in the hands of a minor player in the market. Either VW's engineers are incompetent, or VW decided not to build the technology into their cars to compete better on price, or - having found an inferior and illegal solution - they decided to keep it, assuming they wouldn't be caught. In any case, good riddance to them; I don't want cheating players in the market putting pressure on honest competitors.

      Note that the above advertising campaign has been running for months. In the current climate, any competitor would surely love to stop the campaign, if only they could. I think it's proof that they can't because the measurements are in the legal range. Please stop claiming that all car makers cheat somehow; there are brands that have never been implicated since the scandal broke.

      The brand is Mazda, and I'm happy to drive one. I won't consider a German for at least a decade.

    47. Re: Probably not enough by fish_sauce · · Score: 1

      The law is the law, they would be punished the same way. Just like murderers be punished the same way.
      How are you not following the logic? If you have trouble understanding do not hesitate to ask questions. I do not bite (unless you want me too).

    48. Re: Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have trouble understanding how someone could think that would be a good idea. I am happy that lawmakers are more sane than you. Punishments should be proportionate to the crime and they should only harm those that were complicit.

    49. Re:Probably not enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mazda are lying through their teeth. Every single independent study shows that Mazda's diesels exceed Euro 6 NOx regulations by very wide margins. See this page from Emissions Analytics for an overview. They are getting away with it because the German authorities are essentially powerless against car makers that have obtained their type approval in a country that looks the other way. May I remind you that VW was the first company to offer any diesel cars that actually met Euro 6 in practice in 2015? Mazda could have chosen to buy technology from VW, or try to develop something by themselves, but instead they chose to cheat and to lie about it.

      I am sorry that you paid your hard earned money to some foreign liars, but you are not making it any better by denying the facts. If it makes you sleep any better: only in Germany are the authorities still actively prosecuting car makers for emissions violations and as I said, they are powerless against foreign companies, so chances are Mazda will get away with it just as easily as Fiat, Renault, Ford, PSA and the others and you can probably keep on telling everyone how great and clean your Mazda is and how dirty the cars from competitors that actually invest in clean technology are. Meanwhile, if you actually want a diesel car that remains within measurement tolerances of the official norms, all your options are still German.

  4. cannot seem to catch a break by Aaden42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The poor, poor oppressed company. It's awful they're being held accountable to the law like us little people are. So unfair!

    1. Re:cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reality is that companies are owned by stockholders and the vast majority of those are simply investors with no input to operations. They trust the officers that run the company to follow the law. Those people betrayed both their stockholders and their customers and yet it's not them that are paying for this. So far I believe one engineer was sentenced to 40 months and 200,000 dollars and one exec to 7 years and 400K. That's very light for the actual damage done. The exec was allowed to plead, he could have served 169 years instead. So 2 people going to jail when you know there were many others involved. Very light sentences for serious felonies.

    2. Re:cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to add the word "SAD!" at the very end of the statement

    3. Re:cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What was the actual damage done?
      A bit more air pollution?
      Yeah people should have gone to jail, what do you want to have happen? Public executions? Europeans don't do DP any more.

    4. Re:cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly! The left trying to control our lives.

      Also, there was no collusion. Having a friend in Russia is a good thing. We spend too much money already policing the world. Let the Russians and the Chinese spend their money instead.

    5. Re:cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, every single other volume car manufacturer has been caught doing similar things and much worse in most cases. The others all got away with small fines and tiny stories on page 9, or, in many cases no consequences at all, while VW has been flogged and shaken down continuously for almost three years over this, with the media acting like this only happened at VW. It's not exactly a fair treatment, especially considering that VW was the only company that sold diesel cars that actually met Euro 6 in practice at the time the story broke. Coming clean doesn't pay, apparently.

    6. Re: cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be perfect in the perfect world, but the regulations are not linear or even close to being uniform. The regulations do not care about the miles per gallon, they only go by how much emissions come out of burning a regulated amount of fuel. This process harms small cars compared to large diesel trucks, because it assumes both vehicles would get the same mileage.

      A v8 turbodiesel dually gets 12mpg and puts out 250 grams of pollution per liter of fuel burned. A 4 cylinder putting out 251 grams per liter while getting 4 times the mpg (48mpg vs 12) is "cheating".

      If we figure the pollution if both vehicles drove 48 miles....

      Truck: (48 / 12) * 250 = 1000 grams of pollution.

      4 cylinder vw: (48 / 48) * 251 = 251 grams of pollution...

      So essentially the regulations don't care that the V8 turbo diesel trucks pollute 1,000 grams on the same drive that the VW would pollute 251 grams. I. E. The truck gets a free pass to pollute 4 times as much while calling rhe VW a "cheater".

      Suuuuuurrreee. But really, fix the regulations.

    7. Re:cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >every single other volume car manufacturer

      Yeah? Peugeot has? Where?

    8. Re: cannot seem to catch a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In France. See here and here. Evidence for cheats in PSA engines also came forward in other studies.

    9. Re: cannot seem to catch a break by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      That would be perfect in the perfect world, but the regulations are not linear or even close to being uniform. The regulations do not care about the miles per gallon, they only go by how much emissions come out of burning a regulated amount of fuel. This process harms small cars compared to large diesel trucks, because it assumes both vehicles would get the same mileage.

      A v8 turbodiesel dually gets 12mpg and puts out 250 grams of pollution per liter of fuel burned. A 4 cylinder putting out 251 grams per liter while getting 4 times the mpg (48mpg vs 12) is "cheating".

      If we figure the pollution if both vehicles drove 48 miles....

      Truck: (48 / 12) * 250 = 1000 grams of pollution.

      4 cylinder vw: (48 / 48) * 251 = 251 grams of pollution...

      So essentially the regulations don't care that the V8 turbo diesel trucks pollute 1,000 grams on the same drive that the VW would pollute 251 grams. I. E. The truck gets a free pass to pollute 4 times as much while calling rhe VW a "cheater".

      Suuuuuurrreee. But really, fix the regulations.

      You forgot to factor in the amount of mass moved in that distance. What if that V8 turbo diesel is in a bus that is carrying 100 passengers? Or a truck that is hauling 50 tons of some product? How many more trips will that 4 cylinder VW need to make to do the same? Basically it can carry 4 people plus a driver. So it would need to make 25 trips to move the same number of people as the bus. I'll be generous and say you can haul half a ton in the VW. That's 100 trips to haul what the truck did. In either case, the milage per gallon is also going to drop in the VW as well.

  5. Distribution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm assuming, since it was the German people whom suffered the effects of the increased pollution, the monies collected will be equally distributed amongst the German population. At 82 million people, that will come out to around 14 Euro per person. Seems fair.

  6. What will a Cohen say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prison got your tongue?

    1. Re: What will a Cohen say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      âoeMr. Trump will pardon me.â

  7. Hate train aside... by CaptnCrud · · Score: 4, Funny

    now is the time to pick up a volkswagon for cheap...

    1. Re:Hate train aside... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      now is the time to pick up a volkswagon for cheap...

      so you've never actually owned one, "cheap" certainly does not apply to repair and maintenance costs

    2. Re:Hate train aside... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you are in the US. Things are a bit different here in Europe (Belgium in my case). Emissions are taxed here. Now that the true emissions of the vehicles are becoming public, tax rates are being adjusted to match.

      So those cheap VWs are actually very, very expensive.

      Oh, and soon you won't be able to get a permit to drive them in certain cities, no matter how much you pay.

    3. Re:Hate train aside... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bought a new cheating TDI that has since been bought back.. over the 65k miles I owned it I kept every fuel and maintenance receipt.. I was just under $0.1/mile, if thats not cheap I dunno what is.

      a half dozen oil changes, one set of tires, a battery and fuel were the only expenses.. gave it back to em in perfect condition.

  8. Crush VW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We shouldn't have fined them, we should have imposed a punitive tariff per vehicle that would amount to the same fine, if sales held up, which they wouldn't, die VW die ha ha ha

    1. Re: Crush VW by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Funny GM was also accused of this. Sept under the rug though.

  9. Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by dargaud · · Score: 1

    ...not the company. Otherwise the price of my spare parts will go up !

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    1. Re:Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by amorsen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is actually an excellent point!

      A suitable punishment would be to take away all government-granted monopolies, since they do not play by the rules of the government. Goodbye Volkswagen patents!

      That would benefit the owners of Volkswagen vehicles, who were defrauded and who have so far not had a penny in compensation (at least in Europe).

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    2. Re: Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly were VW owners disadvantaged? And why should VW be punished so extremely severely over something that all of its competitors simply got away with without any form of punishment?

    3. Re: Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by amorsen · · Score: 2

      The VW owners now have cars with less performance and worse fuel economy than they had when bought. The competitors cheated too, and obviously they should be punished as well, but VW is by far the worst offender according to what has been revealed so far.

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    4. Re: Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The VW owners now have cars with less performance and worse fuel economy than they had when bought.

      How so? The KBA explicitly checked that the software updates would not negatively affect performance or fuel economy before approval.

      The competitors cheated too, and obviously they should be punished as well, but VW is by far the worst offender according to what has been revealed so far.

      Only in terms of the number of cars affected and that is only due yo VW being so much larger. However, if you look at the actual emissions, Fiat Chrysler, Renault-Nissan, Ford, Volvo and Hyundai are all quite a bit worse and unlike VW, none of them acknowledged anything, apologised or sacked those responsible. Also unlike VW, they continue their emissions cheating strategies to this day. They only issued some 'voluntary' recalls when the regulators insisted.

    5. Re:Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      How does "Volkswagon's profits are being taken away via fines" correspond to "the prices of my spare parts are going up"? I'm going to need some explaination

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    6. Re:Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by thogard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You can't fine a company. You can only fine its customers or low level employees using existing corporate laws which protect the share holders.

      The correct thing to do is force the company it issue a billion dollars in new stock and give it to the government. That is the only way to fine the share holders who have a responsibility to ensure the board is above board.

    7. Re:Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Executive 1: Damn, we're a billion euros in the hole. There goes my profit sharing.
      Executive 2: Yeah. We'll have to make that billion up somewhere.
      Executive 1: Not to mention the money we're going to lose refitting stock, increased governmental scrutiny, blah blah blah.
      Executive 2: Guess we'll need to bump up prices on everything.
      Executive 1: Yup.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    8. Re:Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So if a billion dollars shows up on the liabilities side of the balance sheet of a company that won't affect the share price? How exactly are the share holders more culpable than the low level employees or even customers? There is actually a formula for calculating what percentage a of a tax is payed by a company versus it's customers. (For our purposes a fine is equivalent to a tax.) That is, what percentage comes out of profits versus being passed on to customers as higher prices. It depends upon the elasticity of the market for the company's product. In a competitive/elastic market a company can't pass on costs to their customers because the customers will just buy a different company's product. That means it comes out of profits. There is nothing stopping a company from issuing a billion dollars of stock to raise money to pay a fine. There is also nothing stopping a company from buying back a billion dollars of stock on the market if they are forced to issue a billion dollars in new stock and give it to the government. You are wrong about literally everything you said. It's like you didn't think about this at all.

    9. Re:Fine the bosses and the shareholders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A billion added to the balance sheet won't have much of an effect at all. The share holders can vote for the board so they are more culpable than the employees that have no choice or the customers that were lied to. Many times when one company gets fined and has to raise its prices, the competitors will raise theirs as well effectively fining the customers of a well behaved company. Existing boards of fortune 500 companies will not issue shares to pay fines. Until a decade ago, no company would have the ability to buy back a billion in stock and even today, to do that would cost the major share holders more than they would be willing to do.

  10. Shareholders fined. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The money will come from the current shareholders of VW.

    The perps are in their mansions, not in jail.

    The perps are not going to pay the fine. There is no clawback provision to get back the bonuses and salaries and incentives they got for achieving the goals by cheating.

    The shareholders should sue the board and ask them to pay the fine without using company funds.

    Board might sue the old office holders and get the money from them.

    But none of that will happen. So next scandal will happen. There is no effective way to punish the Criminal Executive Officers.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Shareholders fined. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Criminal Executive Officers

      Good one, dad.

    2. Re:Shareholders fined. by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/201... At least one executive will go to jail.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    3. Re:Shareholders fined. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Or back in reality, company fined, shareholders hold executives who are left accountable, executives who over saw the scandal are at very real risk of losing it all given the proceedings under way, and the company has been majorly forced to day track a migration away from diesel which has seen its group release several EVs and work on several more... Unlike US companies.

  11. Expect it to be returned. by OpenSourced · · Score: 2

    The government can return the money as tax deductions next year, or the next one, if need be. What should be done, and curiously enough isn't, is to apply the law and forbid the sales of non emission-compliant cars. Most models sold even today are still non compliant, and sold without anybody saying anything. That makes a fool of the law, and of the consumers.

    Instead they give a fine. Great. If anybody, the regulators should be fined. They simply "trusted" the manufacturers, instead of doing a proper independent road test of the new models. It's obvious that everybody was in the deception, and worse still, they still are.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
    1. Re:Expect it to be returned. by easyTree · · Score: 1

      It's obvious that everybody was in the deception, and worse still, they still are.

      All that matters is that fines can be issued to benefit those running the 'broken rules -> fines' system.

    2. Re:Expect it to be returned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laws targeting consumer vehicals for emissions [i]are[/i] foolish. 50 years ago it made a difference. All new cars are damn clean. Air pollution is still happening at an astonishing rate, and consumer vehicals have nothing to do with it. One supertanker dumps more pollutants into the air in a day than all the cars in the world, not to mention all the other supertankers, container ships, etc., as well as coal burning, glass factories, cement factories... this is what makes the air dirty, not VW consumer diesels. The law is outdated, outmoded, and consumer vehical regulations are too strict for diesels and wrong-headed. Why are governments focused so keenly on literally one of the tiniest contributers to air pollution, and ignoring all the major sources of air pollution? Distraction, diversion, division.

    3. Re:Expect it to be returned. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      What should be done, and curiously enough isn't, is to apply the law and forbid the sales of non emission-compliant cars.

      Err did you miss the bit about how the VWs sold now had significantly down rated specs than the same model sold only a few years earlier?

      Instead they give a fine. Great.

      Yeah that's all they did. All of it. Nothing else what so ever.
      Certainly the Germans aren't currently prosecuting several of the managers at the time. /sarcasm
      Oh no wait, I have more sarcasm: Certainly they didn't force the company to spend $2bn on electric car R&D the results of which have already born some fruit. /sarcasm ... one more for good measure: Certainly there aren't several ongoing court cases which could end up costing VW more than $30bn by the time they are finished. /sarcasm

      Ok I'm done now.

    4. Re:Expect it to be returned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err did you miss the bit about how the VWs sold now had significantly down rated specs than the same model sold only a few years earlier?

      You mean the bit that is not true? I can see how GP missed that.

  12. Long scale or short? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that one long scale billion Euros or one short scale billion? T (corrected-link; thanks divide overflow) FA's headline uses a long spelling of billlion [sic], so presumably Reuters is rooting for long scale.

  13. This is weird by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    Because it's not just Volkwagen who put software cheats into their car computers but Mercedes Benz and BMW too. Those latter two must have made sure their legislators were well bought off.

    1. Re: This is weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting a dozen or so others...

    2. Re:This is weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, your curious omission of many other makers shows off your anti-german bias...

  14. corporal punishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps if we start publicly caning the board of directors when a company is caught in egregious wrong doing, we'll find businesses regulate themselves a lot better from the very top.

    1. Re:corporal punishment? by easyTree · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps if we start publicly caning the board of directors when a company is caught in egregious wrong doing

      ....we'll find a situation where the board of directors are paid scapegoats whilst the real board hides from view.

    2. Re:corporal punishment? by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Agreed. There is a lot of wishy-washy stuff going on with corporate boards. Sometimes they are just friends (rubber stamp) of the ceo/founder. Often they are just dysfunctional. The board actually does cause a lot of this shit because they are insulated from their own demands.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    3. Re:corporal punishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ....we'll find a situation where the board of directors are paid scapegoats whilst the real board hides from view.

      Maybe, but not a lot of folks would volunteer for a beating. And being on a board means you own preferred stock, and therefor a substantial wealth. Even if you are voting according to the wishes of your master, you are going to be a very well to do slave.

  15. \o/ by easyTree · · Score: 1

    Gotta love environmental regulations which serve to enable largish fines like this* but.... how does this help the citizens, whose health is nominally protected by this legislation?

    (*) equivalent to the penalty for downloading close to a hundred mp3s!!, but I digress...---^

  16. Doesn't seem like enough by SilverBlade2k · · Score: 1

    They should be forced to essentially 'buy' back ALL of the effected cars.

    Not at current value, but at the original value of the vehicle at the day of sale.

    Maybe a heavy loss of having to buy back all of those vehicles, and and then not being able to sell them ever, would be enough of a punishment.

    1. Re: Doesn't seem like enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? How would that help?

  17. It's because laws hold no power. People do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any laws you think exist, are only s real as there are people enforcing them.

    Which is why the sensibleness of property laws is questionable, and that of imaginary property laws is delusional (apart from only existing to let cokeheads steal money from those who actually work): They are impossible to enforce (unless you accept gapless total surveillance. As a single gap suffices.)

    Big companies just got a bigger lever. That is all.

  18. Ridicolous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Com on, this is ridiculous... if you fine VW for that then you should shoot Elon musk and close tesla (and others alike)

  19. Greedy European Bastards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Capitalist Scum. FUCK YOU

  20. who would have thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who would have thought a company founded by Adolf Hitler would do something unethical?

  21. End days for diesel by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

    There is only one way that the German auto industry will ever get a break from diesel scandals, and that is to stop making them. VW at least appears to be on the path to doing just that; the company is aggressively pushing forward with EV development and sales.

    1. Re: End days for diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The anti-diesel sentiment is kind of sad, though, considering how much cleaner diesel engines are compared to their petrol counterparts. The bans for older diesel cars are scaring people into buying petrols instead, which ultimately damages the environment needlessly for all of us.