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China Begins Production Of x86 Processors Based On AMD's IP (tomshardware.com)
Chinese-designed "Dhyana" x86 processors based on AMD's Zen microarchitecture are beginning to surface from Chinese chip producer Hygon. From a report: The processors come as the fruit of AMD's x86 IP licensing agreements with its China-based partners and break the decades-long stranglehold on x86 held by the triumvirate of Intel, AMD and VIA Technologies. Details are also emerging that outline how AMD has managed to stay within the boundaries of the x86 licensing agreements but still allow Chinese-controlled interests to design and sell processors based on the Zen design.
AMD's official statements indicate the company does not sell its final chip designs to its China-based partners. Instead, AMD allows them to design their own processors tailored for the Chinese server market. But the China-produced Hygon "Dhyana" processors are so similar to AMD's EPYC processors that Linux kernel developers have listed vendor IDs and family series numbers as the only difference. In fact, Linux maintainers have simply ported over the EPYC support codes to the Dhyana processor and note that they have successfully run the same patches on AMD's EPYC processors, implying there is little to no differentiation between the chips.
AMD's official statements indicate the company does not sell its final chip designs to its China-based partners. Instead, AMD allows them to design their own processors tailored for the Chinese server market. But the China-produced Hygon "Dhyana" processors are so similar to AMD's EPYC processors that Linux kernel developers have listed vendor IDs and family series numbers as the only difference. In fact, Linux maintainers have simply ported over the EPYC support codes to the Dhyana processor and note that they have successfully run the same patches on AMD's EPYC processors, implying there is little to no differentiation between the chips.
We forgive you.
Does Via Technologies still exist?
I guess the bigger question is really if x86 should be the basis for a new processor initiative from China.
Engrish silly...
love is just extroverted narcissism
Just business as usual at Slashdot. Incoherent summaries and easily spotted typos. On a side note does that mean I can buy these knockoff processors from Alibaba for a fraction of AMD's prices?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
We forgive you.
No, no we don’t. What a horrible “sentence”.
#DeleteChrome
Intel is fucked as they not even ok for china to copy them.
One consumer cpu can do math.
Time for the 1980's NSA and its consumer chip super computer contractor adventures.
Buy 100000's more consumer CPU from contractors and enjoy doing more maths. With many more low cost consumer CPU's. They are for consumers so the cost is low.
Buy more CPU's from the contractor and the maths is faster again.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
translation: fabs owned by fairly high ranked party officials' brothers-in-law and making timely deposits to Panamanian accounts.
I assume they're talking about x86-64, which is modern AMD technology, and not actually the x86, which is decades old Intel technology. I can't imagine anyone would want to build x86s for anything but legacy devices.
Two questions arise: if they have licensed AMD's Zen architecture, does that allow them to support Intel's x32, which is the cross licensing exclusive that Intel and AMD have (or at least had), which allowed Intel to use AMD64 and AMD to use IA32? Or have we come to the point where it's no longer necessary to support 32-bit in x64?
As for AMD, this is the only way they can gain any significant marketshare anywhere - by taking their China partners and selling into China. In fact, those Chinese partners might as well acquire AMD directly, and make it all their own.
1. Find a CPU design and consider software and math that will work.
2. Begin making CPU so production line works.
3. Make a lot of the CPU and connect them together. Keep adding CPU until sure most powerful super computer.
3.5 Code software for impressive math question that works for CPU design.
4. Name and show super computer.
5. Ensure it gets to be number 1 most powerful super computer.
6. Find next new CPU design and math problem.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Intel is fucked as they not even ok for china to copy them.
More likely AMD is f'd if they felt desperate enough to engage in this short term benefit deal with long term negative consequences.
Congratulations! Your English is great! Better than the headline in fact!
It looks like they copied the headline from the source article but bizarrely omitted one word and a piece of punctuation making the whole thing unintelligible. The actual title should be:
"China Finds Zen: Begins Production Of x86 Processors Based On AMD's IP"
Which is kind of a dumb pun based on the fact that they're copying AMD's Zen microarchitecture.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Good! AMD and Intel need competition in x86 chips. Duopolies usually provide narrow choices, and consumers can't do squat about it (big telecoms cough cough).
Table-ized A.I.
It wasn't a bad plan per se that Nixon and Kissinger came up with in the 1970s. However at the time of the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989 the plan was obviously a failure and we should have adjusted trade relations appropriately.
Chinglish like in most manuals
Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
The titel is cuased by a Pentuim flaoting piont erorr. Its why we nead competion.
(Slahsdot just fixed the erorr, by the way.)
Table-ized A.I.
Shouldn't that be "Engrish Siri"?
sig: sauer
Once China gets good enough on their own to fab the chips without AMDs help, I don't see good things for AMD. Maybe they'll get sued, or attacked politically, or simply stop receiving payments for their IP use. China has always been #1 in the world at stealing others' hard work.
Obligatory
We'll make great pets
Sorry...I don't know Engrish
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
AMD was f'd, so they mortgaged the future with this deal. They got $250M from this deal, which let them ship Ryzen in a timely manner. They may regret it later, but without the cash infusion they wouldn't have had a future to regret.
Many US companies have partnered with Chinese companies and it works great for a couple of years, until the Chinese company no longer needs anything from the US company. Once they get all the information they need, they have no reason to send any payments, or anything else, to the US company.
..
The reality is that culture and ethnicity are interdependent and there is absolutely no reason to assume that Chinese people, once lifted out of poverty will choose the same path as Europeans.
Not counting iOS (which is ARM) or the old Apple 8 bits (all 650x machines), Apple has changed Mac architecture three times; 68000-family to start, then PowerPC, and now Intel. That's three times in thirty years. Yes, more than Microsoft, which has largely stuck with x86, despite a few ventures with NT. There's ARM now, and I expect that one will ultimately stick a bit better than the defunct Alpha and PowerPC ports.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
China IP laws make it so they don't need intel to say it's ok.
Interesting considerations. What "server-centric features"?
Other thoughts: What will happen in the future? If most manufacturing is done in China, will the U.S. become a poorer country?
Does Via Technologies still exist?
Does the google search engine still exist?
I guess the bigger question is really if x86 should be the basis for a new processor initiative from China.
Why not? They copy pretty much everything else so why stop now?
What features do these chips have? What's the clock rate? What are some benchmark scores?
Financially, it makes a lot of difference if these Chinese CPUs are actually competitive.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Only if you want built in Malware, and other pestilences.
Do they come with the original American backdoors, or do they have their own Chinese version?
Knowledge is power; knowledge shared is power lost.
Give it to me! I trust my language barrier.
I felt sure I was about to see a Lethal Weapon clip.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
"China Begins Production Of x86 Processors Based On AMD's" electronic circuit board/integrated circuit designs? Their...copyrighted designs? Their...architecture?
/. of all places should not confuse these types of things. This does not appear to be even be reverse engineered - it appears to just be a compatible, licensed-through-contract law clone similar to the early PC clones only without the cleanroom reverse engineering work.
I think what this article means is the latter, but there's some sense of expected ownership expressed that is simply not valid to posit.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
x32 is a 32bit ABI for x86_64 using 32 bit pointers. IA32 is intel's name for the x86 processor, later complemented with the incompatible IA64(Itanium) and then their respin of AMD's amd64 as EM64T, the two of which are collectively known as x86_64 since the userspace side of them is effectively the same.
IA32 code runs with only the 8ish GP registers of 32 bit x86 processors, whereas x86_64 has 16, providing a performance boost for a lot of code compared to IA32, a similar memory footprint, but no software compatibility with legacy x86/IA32 processors.
The reality is that culture and ethnicity are interdependent and there is absolutely no reason to assume that Chinese people, once lifted out of poverty will choose the same path as Europeans.
The educated young people are still opposed to the central government. The only thing keeping them in power is continued economic growth. I doubt that will work out in the long term.
But then if it does work, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to adopt their system. No one said democracy was perfect.
Don't worry, English isn't the native language of msmash, either.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I don't care what intelligence the Chinese government collects on me. Uncle Sam is a different story.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
"x86" is kind of a generic name of a "line of" processors, similar to the System/360 "architecture" even though current machines go beyond the original System/360.
English is almost inherently lossy anyhow such that it's probably not worth debating. One can use "the x86 line" to hopefully indicate a more generic implication.
Table-ized A.I.
That's three times in thirty years.
So the AC was probably correct in telling his parent AC:
Apple has changed its internal architecture more times than you've changed your underwear
"Yes, more than Microsoft"
You say right before you go on to list two extra architectures which puts Microsoft EVEN with Apple (DEC and PPC.)
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"clocks"
The sexagecimal system which we use in modern times came from the Sumerians, about two millennia earlier.
"paper"
Papyrus is actual paper, to hell with the pedantic fuckwits that have never made any on their own. Take your sorry ass to Egypt.
"porcelain"
Hey, you actually got one right for once!
"iron smelting"
Wrong - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"gunpowder"
Hey, you got another one right! Just about as good as randomly throwing rocks!
"compass"
Those random throws are getting better, but you're still wrong on half of your shit, sonny boy.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
If China aggregates good information on US citizens you don't think US intelligence agencies would pay for it? Privacy is privacy.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Better hope you've got nothing you could *ever* be blackmailed with, then. And- of course- that includes things you might not want Uncle Sam to know.
And he need never know if you do whatever's required. Perhaps just pass on that useful trade secret that might be of benefit to their companies, it's not a big thing...
Or whatever else they might want.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
I'm sure it isn't that difficult to copy a chip once you have the mask of it but the question is do they understand how that chip supposedly works? A lot of actual chip design is computer based and learning how that works can take years? It means they can make copies but not necessarily advance the design.
It's super useful for enabling long mode (64bit).
China has always been #1 in the world at stealing others' hard work.
Remind us all again:
Where were: clocks, paper, porcelain, iron smelting, gunpowder, the compass
invented? come on, now, tell us, little idiot
Well, the earliest evidence of iron smelting comes from Anatolia, Mesopotamia and Egypt. So the answer to that one would be: not China. Or are you trying to steal ip again?
Similarly, the earliest evidences of the invention of the clock come from Babylon and Egypt, with time keeping instruments appearing independently in various parts of the world such as india and china and others at similar timeframes. So again, China did not 'invent' the clock. You know, it does make me think, your comment, that in a lot of authoritarian regimes, education is skewed to prop the regime by playing fast and loose with the facts. Rewriting history to aggrandize your own country and culture. So AC here could just be a product of this.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hygon will not be content with Zen, Zen is just the starting point for them. AMD will lose more due to lost sales of AMD CPUs than they will gain from Hygon CPUs. The Hygon CPUs will not be complementary products, they will be substitute products. You are delusional if you think this is just a way to get another 5 years of sales out of Zen. Plus its delusional to think that AMD will be getting much of those Hygon CPU sales despite the ownership stakes. Profits will be diminished through financial engineering.
China does not just take foreign technology and sit idly by with it. They take foreign technology and use it to move their current capabilities ahead many years if not decades. Getting Zen is a similar effort. A professor of mine got to tour a manufacturer in China who had a contract to make motorcycle engines for a Japanese company, of course they were trained for Japan's tech and quality standards. Next door to the motorcycle engine factory was a construction project. The professor asked what was going up there. He was told that's our new automobile engine factory being built.
I agree thats why intel must have competition.
Just business as usual at Slashdot. Incoherent summaries and easily spotted typos. On a side note does that mean I can buy these knockoff processors from Alibaba for a fraction of AMD's prices?
Licensing restricions apply -- chips are exclusively for Chinese Domestic and military market.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
China + CPU + ML+ AI + Robotics+ Inexpensive + Products + Exports = World Domination
Casteism