Comic Book Publishers, Faced With Flagging Sales, Look To Streaming (nytimes.com)

Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis: Flagging interest from readers and competition from digital entertainment are dragging down sales. Hoping to reverse the trend, publishers are creating their own digital platforms to directly connect with readers and encourage more engagement from fans. From a report: One of the biggest direct-to-consumer efforts is DC Universe, a platform from DC Entertainment and Warner Bros. Digital Studios that will offer streaming content, including original and classic TV series. DC Universe is "a huge opportunity" that offers "ultimate creative control," said Jim Lee, a co-publisher of DC Entertainment. "It allows you to look at wider adaptations of the source material."

[...] The Walt Disney Company, which owns Marvel Entertainment, said last year that it would create a streaming platform that would include Marvel movies like "The Avengers" and "Guardians of the Galaxy." Smaller comic book publishers are testing their own direct-to-consumer platforms. Image Comics, the publisher of popular titles like The Walking Dead and Saga, started a direct-to-consumer platform in 2015 to sell comic book subscriptions and apparel.

Comments

How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrm, seems like they could just stop pumping it full of SJW propaganda and sales would come back

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I should probably buy AltHero and CYBERFROG just to show that a market exists for things that aren't trash.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

I was rather surprised to find out Iron Man is now a black female teenager. I've never read print comics, so I can only guess that it's as stupid as my imagination suggests.

I have no idea why one would pay four bucks per comic book when you can read stuff like 'Kill Six Billion Demons' and 'Digger' for free.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Luckyo]

Unlikely. It's much harder to build an audience than to lose it.

Now that they have the reputation, they're likely fucked for a generation. They'll have to learn to live on the movie profits.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

I think the whole "millions of dollars" thing is a disingenuous attempt to make it look like you're punching up. It's pretty clear you'd feel exactly the same way if he got paid nothing at all.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Bing Tsher E]

I read the whole Sandman series. Bought the issues as they were coming out, from #17 onward. That series wasn't like a lot of the stupid regular comics, though. Most mainstream comics, i.e. the 'Super Hero' ones, are tedious and two dimensional. Why anybody would read more than one or two issues is beyond me.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Once Alexandria Cortez becomes President (and also Glorious Chairman of the House) SJW comic books will be procured by the state and sent to the libraries, kindergartens, schools and colleges for free!

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Calydor]

Iron Man is a black teenage girl? So is the new Buffy.

https://www.polygon.com/tv/201...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you assuming only two genders! How about an action superhero who can switch genders on the fly. C'mon Marvel. Send me my check!

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

> I was rather surprised to find out Iron Man is now a black female teenager.

That is actually a spinoff, Ironheart. She was inspired by Tony Stark and built her own suit. He basically met her later and said 'your stuff is junk but I like your moxie, kid'. He didn't magically become another person.

No one is forcing anyone to read a comic about a black female. The fact that the comic simply _existing_ is enough to incite such anger says a lot, though.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

Nothing wrong with that; it fits the established canon.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

You sound entirely reasonable, but I disagree with your point on not reading. The fact of the matter is we've seen very self-righteous and pervasive commentaries claiming that not reading/watching IS a sign of bigotry. Remember all the stuff written about choosing to not go see Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Wrinkle in Time, and others.

Preceding that you may recall there was a huge mass of articles released in tandem claiming that it was time to do away with the identity of "gamer." I think there is at least some credence to the idea there is a systemic and concerted attack on a lot of geek culture. It might actually be an interesting thing to investigate. It'd take a strong constitution to deal with the filth that populates both extremes of the debate though.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[samdu]

No, it wasn't a spinoff. Riri Williams, the young black teenage girl in question, literally replaced Tony Stark (whom they "killed" off) for years before they finally brought Stark back. The problems wasn't that they put Riri in the suit. The problem was that Riri was/is a TERRIBLE character. A terrible character that was part of Marvel's purposeful attempt to replace all of the classic characters with "diverse" characters, regardless of whether it made sense, was well written, or anything else that matters in fiction. The only thing that mattered were the characters' surface traits. I remember, back in the day, when Rhodey replaced Tony as Iron Man. It was a well written arc. It made complete sense based on what came before it. And Rhodey was/is a great character that had been built up over time. This had absolutely none of those things. So, while a certain loud group of people have shouted down (or tried) anyone who took issue with the direction Marvel took as being Nazis, fascists, homophobes, sexists, and racists, that characterization is without merit. Are there some of those people peppered in? Certainly. Because there are some of those people peppered into all groups. But there was/is a real, non-discriminatory criticism of Marvel's direction. And yeah, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Which is exactly why so many have stopped doing so. Thus, this article. And the swing and a miss by the industry to try to explain why sales are flagging.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a compelling case to be made that the USA's successes (e.g., in providing good lives for the working class) in the 1950s and 1960s were largely due to FDR's New Deal. That is, people were shocked by the great depression into enacting programs to help the working class - and these programs were actually successful in helping the working class.

And these days, the working class in countries like Denmark has it much better that the working class in the USA,

But I also wonder whether some part of the USA's economic success might be due to Yankee Ingenuity. That is, whether, at its best, the USA has a certain pragmatism that allows it to not get bogged down in ritual and superstition - just doing what's necessary to get the job done.

And so I also wonder about all this hand-wringing about what professional athletes do, or don't do, during the national anthem. Does it actually matter what they do? The state motto of New Hampshire is "Live free or die". In a country like North Korea, not being sufficiently patriotic will get you killed. But maybe, at their best, Americans wouldn't really care about this national anthem stuff - realizing the rituals and ceremonies aren't really where it's at when it comes to rolling up your sleeves and actually getting the job done.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

not reading/watching IS a sign of bigotry.

Could be worse. The days where you get labelled a bigot purely for only wanting to date women are fast approaching.

https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

It's worth noting that New Hampshire residents have the right to remove the Live Free or Die message from their license plates if they sincerely value life more than freedom.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

X-Factor was cool.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I am fine with being transphobic. It's a perfectly rational fear that one might be tricked into a relationship with one who could never bear children and waste their child rearing years thus wasting their life.

My transphobia isn't like that, I don't believe the point of life is having kids. I'm afraid of trans people because they are mostly lunatics trying to pull a fast one for cash. If they chop their own body up what will they do to others? And they talk like they are mafiaa, always imposing their own ways on others.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

On the one hand, I can't think of anything wrong or stupid about a story involving a black female teenager in a mech suit. Mech suits are cool, no matter who is in them.

With good writers, one could spin compelling stories with any character, regardless of race, etc.

But, on the other hand, the only reason that this specific combination was chosen was to contrast it against the white male original character. And this isn't the only story in which this has happened. There is, in fact, a huge push to replace all the classic characters with women and minorities, not because there is something compelling about this plotwise, but in order to push an obvious agenda of social engineering.

And hell, if the whole agenda is just one of encouraging acceptance and respect, I don't even have a problem with that. But it is being grossly overdone, in an in-your-face and kind of insulting way, and the plots being produced are not compelling. "Oh look at me, I am a woman in a man's role" is just not good enough.

Why is a female Thor better than, say, brand new IP about the goddess Athena? Athena was a strategic badass in greek mythology, no need at all to turn a man into a woman who is just-as-good-or-better.

The answer is obvious. The goal is transparent. The push is to replace characters we have loved with more politically correct equivalents.....not to write badass stories with compelling plots.

And that is precisely why their sales are dropping. But their idealism won't allow them to admit this, not even to themselves, so they put the blame on bullshit.

Some talented startup is going to write some good comics in the next few years, and eat their lunch.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[dirk]

So I think it is fair to say you don't like Riri. I didn't read the series, so I can't say whether she was a good character or not.But I know there are a lot of diverse characters that are incredible that you are ignoring. The fact she was female and black is all you see (and may or may not be the reason she was as the replacement) but that in no way means she has to be a bad character because of that.

Ms. Marvel is arguable a replacement for Captain Marvel (even though she still exists) and is one of the best characters they have currently. Miles Morales is arguable a better Spiderman than Peter Parker. Amadeus Cho become the Hulk and it made perfect sense and was great. Sam Wilson as Captain America made perfect sense and was well done, even if people rejected him. Jane Foster as Thor was an incredibly well done story. Super heros changing is part of the comics and has been for years. There is no reason the replacement has to always be a white, straight male. You seem to think Riri was terrible because she was black and female, but there is no reason they couldn't have told a story to your liking with her having those traits. And there is no reason to think if they had replaced Tony with a white man the story still wouldn't have been terrible. If she was white and male and written the same way, you still wouldn't have like her (at least I hope not), so your issue is with the storytelling and not the character. Blaming the character for being poor written (at least in your eyes) is like blaming a painting because you don't like it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

They pretty much already are. Marvel makes good money on Scholastic Books, mostly from librarians and school administrators happy to spend state money on leftist indoctrination propaganda. Hence "Ms. Marvel", the muslim hero that Marvel pushes the shit out of despite the fact that nobody actually buys it. They make their money off taxpayers being forced to support it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Aighearach]

The comic store near me is thriving, but mostly because of the large adult section.

Less than 25% is in the "Tank Girl-takeoff" style.

But if you're both shopping there at the same time, I totally hope she laughs at you.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

So I think it is fair to say you don't like Riri. I didn't read the series, so I can't say whether she was a good character or not.But I know there are a lot of diverse characters that are incredible that you are ignoring. The fact she was female and black is all you see (and may or may not be the reason she was as the replacement) but that in no way means she has to be a bad character because of that.

Can you point our exactly where she said she was a bad character because of her skin pigmentation or her sex?

There is racism here, there is sexism here - And it just so happens to be you.

There is no reason the replacement has to always be a white, straight male.

Ah, racism and sexism again. Here's the thing - many characters have been changed. Long before you decided that it was important to get rid of those straight white males you rail on about.

What happens when who the character wants to have sex with gets gratuitously thrown into the story, or 21st century American social politics gets thrown into a story about a faraway galaxy a long long time ago.

There can be tremendous movies about social politics. There can be tremendous television shows and movies where gender identity can be explored. Maybe even comic books. Thelma and Louise was a great movie. Steel Magnolias was decent. I don't want to see an all male cast of Thelma and Louise, Steel Magnolias - and I have no idea how to take a femal Frankenfurter in a remake of The Rocky Horror Picture Show! And not many of us want to see an all female Ghostbusters. The sex of the characters had zilch to do with the actual story.

But your argument rationalizes a male Wonder Woman and Cat Woman, and a Female Superman and Male Supergirl. And whatever the social outlook of the people that you are chasing away from comics and sci-fi, you need to be buying the new socially acceptable comic books, and going to the movies and buying all the toys, because if you don't, the next outfit might not be so inclined to bow to your wishes, after they see that your complaints and their response only put another outfit into bankruptcy court.

You've already caused the first Star Wars flop.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

We should demand that a new Wonder Woman movie be made with John Goodman as Wonder Woman.

Okay, let's have some good old fashioned Internet fun. Who's the better Wonder Woman - Gal Gadot or Linda Carter?

My vote is for Linda Carter, who fit the Amazon Woman look better. My wife does too, and she's way too harsh on Gal Gadot. Says that Gadot isn't big enough, and even says Gadot isn't very attractive. I mean she certainly isn't as beautiful as Linda, but she's not that bad.

Anyhow, Linda or Gal? 2 for Linda so far.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

You just hate Jews, my dude.

Gal Gadot is a fucking Goddess... And she killed Muslims while in the IDF. That paired with her tits and ass makes her a one in a billion woman.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's exposing the gross hypocrisy and blatant lie of black victimhood culture.

They can be the President. They can be millionaires playing sports. They can get into college easier than any other group. They dominate the entertainment industry. They are excused for acts of violence, rape, riots, and theft under the cloak of fabricated victimhood.

You are demonstrably and objectively wrong. Your appeal to emotion and dismissal without argument is proof of the weakness of your position.

Don't bother responding. You already lost.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

The market has responded. They're not reading it. And as a consequence comics are dying. Welcome to TFA.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Hilarious thing is, I use to be liberal. Now the SJW crowd have redefined what being a liberal means so much that I've become a conservative. Man being a 30 something can suck. No wonder so many old people are conservative.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

You just hate Jews, my dude.

Gal Gadot is a fucking Goddess... And she killed Muslims while in the IDF. That paired with her tits and ass makes her a one in a billion woman.

I had no idea she was Jewish. That's nice. Anyhow - good internet rage.

Linda Carter 2, Gal Gadot 1

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Transgendered people are well known for killing, carving and eating other people. You can find literally billions of cases in a simple web search that I will not bother to provide for various and unspecified reasons.

Similarly, all black^H Mexican people are racists who want to rape our decent and god fearing white women. There are absolutely no counter examples of even a single black^H man that has not kille,d robbed and raped at least fifty women. See any RWNJ website for examples.

We decent white folk just want to bring race relations back into the peaceful harmony of the 1950's, gender relations into the 1850's and tax and voting rights into the 1750's. Anyone who disagrees with any of these points is, by our definition, a crazy SJW.

That about cover it?

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll have to learn to live on the movie profits.

Nice burn! A few billion in ticket sales absolutely pales in comparison to the money they could net by printing full color panels on literally (up to) tens of thousands of issues per month. I'm so tired of SJW pushing Jews into our classic comics. We need more WASPy characters like Superman. Nothing Jewish about that American paragon. Even the name, Kal-El brims with Protestant values...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact she was female and black is all you see

Don't project.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Some talented startup is going to write some good comics in the next few years, and eat their lunch.

Check out AltHero and Cyberfrog. Already happening.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call myself a conservative, but I definitely can appreciate the sentiment as an early 30s person myself.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell if this is /pol/ or tumblr

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Not even close asshole. Thanks for being so presumptuous I can call you an asshole and feel justified.

You can put words in my mouth all you want. It is just your own projection. You think only whites can be transphobic. You are a racist. That's why you brought race up, not me.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrm, seems like they could just stop pumping it full of SJW propaganda and sales would come back

Apparently you missed the whole civil rights issue Marvel has been pushing since the X-Men. And remember when Iron Man was a weed smoking black guy?

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Luckyo]

Problem being, that you only need a handful of writers for the film, which means most people doing the comics are either going to have to be subsidized, or they will have to be fired.

That's the point I'm making. They will literally have to learn how to live on movie money instead of direct sales income. This will require a paradigm shift within comics companies. Either a lot of people doing comics will have to fired and they have to throw most of the effort at movies instead, or they will have to subsidise comics staff.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

Remember all the stuff written about choosing to not go see Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Wrinkle in Time, and others.

No. I've never even heard "Wrinkle in Time", let alone read any commentary on it. Ghostbusters, I seem to recall got very lukewarm reviews, though I did see it.

I think there is at least some credence to the idea there is a systemic and concerted attack on a lot of geek culture.

Welcome to the big leagues, boyo!

Here's the thing: it's not a systematic attack. Previously geek culture was basically a rather niche things, which means no one outside the niche cared about it, or had any desire to comment on it. Now it's about the most mainstream of mainstream culture.

This means you have the full weight of all of the critics (and others) bearing down on it. And it will continue ot do so just like more or less everything else in the main stream. It is not a systematic attack, it's part of the burden of being popular. Critics tend to exist in the mainstream, subcultures tend to be pretty much critic free.

Not all of the criticism will be fair, not all of it you will agree with. Some of it you might strongly dislike (but kind of know it is true anyway).

But this is life in the mainstream. Deal with it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Kokuyo]

I think I would read the hell out of an Athena comic. That sounds awesome!

Strong women are pretty damn central interest of mine. My favorite works of fiction are Sunstone (comic book) and the Kushiel series (fantasy novels).

That probably won't count for your typical REEEEEEing person of overwhelming opinion (just to avoid the term SJW), as there is sexuality involved in those and since I am an animalistic male, obviously my interests cannot go beyond that.

For the non brain-damaged among us: I'd say it's pretty clear I dig strong female characters. It is one reason I like Captain Janeway, not despite her being an arguably poor Starfleet captain but precisely because. She was depicted to have flaws. She wasn't able to handle each and every situation with Picard's aplomb, because she was thrust into god damned hellish situations with no backup whatsoever.

Contrast that with the old Wonder Woman or Spider-Woman TV series, where these women deus ex machinaed whatever outrageous power they needed o solve an issue. Now don't get me wrong, that is Superman's whole sick, being imbalanced, but I never liked him for that reason either.

Failing is an integral part of making a character grow on you. Having flaws is important. Being a lecherous white dude with too much money and being too full of himself works for Stark because despite all this, he tries to do the right thing.

Replace him with a black female teenager? Sure. I am an avid fanfiction reader, I don't balk at strange turns on established characters but just like fanfiction writers, you got to make the transition. There are only a limited number of fanfics that work despite the premise being "Well, this is different. Accept it and go from there".

The moment I get the feeling the author deems me so dimwitted that they needn't bother with making something fit into canon, I get very, VERY annoyed with said author. And THAT more than anything makes me not want to read and much less buy this crap. You want to push your dogma? Go right ahead. I don't hold it against you. But make sure you pick me up on your journey gently and don't make me hop into a car going twenty miles an hour.

And much less don't expect me to try after calling me names because I balk at the idea...

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Lil@ your while premise. You said trannies are cash grabbers. Because everyone knows the easiest path to being rich is cutting your dick off.
#sad

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. Print comics can die/subsist in the niche market. Every once in a while Disney will pull a decent title from Japan and make it a movie (lion king, edge of tomorrow, ghibli everything).

People who want comic style stories are generally making and reading them online in the form of webcomics, or hishe short animations.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[djinn6]

Yes, we'll "deal with it". Many of us "geeks" couldn't give one fuck about what other people think of us. Heck, we didn't care when other kids ostracized of us. And if daily harassment didn't stop us from liking what we like, what's a few click-bait opinion articles going to do?

As for gamer culture, it's pretty clear the real gamers have already won. Steam announced that they're no longer going to try to police content and no amount of SJW screeching will put that genie back in the bottle.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

Yes, we'll "deal with it". Many of us "geeks" couldn't give one fuck about what other people think of us.

Good! So, er, why the huge screeds of hatred to the critics then.

Quite so!

SJW screeching will put that genie back in the bottle.

Oh so you do care what other people think aof you and say about you. Otherwise you wouldn't be using what you clearly think of as insults.

What I want to know is why you are reluctant to admit you care.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is, you are afraid of getting raped by a large negro man named Tyrone. Got it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

The original idea with Buffy was to subvert the "dumb blond who dies in the first 5 minutes" trope. We have kinda moved past that since the 90s, thanks in part to characters like Buffy. So now the equivalent is the "token black character who dies in the first 5 minutes" trope.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

Remember all the stuff written about choosing to not go see Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Wrinkle in Time, and others.

No, I don't. Can you provide a link?

I can provide some counter points though. Check the IMDB user reviews of Black Panther and Wonder Woman, both great movies and commercially successful. Lots of people with suspiciously similar reviews claiming those movies are racist/sexist respectively.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[squiggleslash]

Never heard of Wrinkle in Time, but yes I was aware of so-called manosphere boycotts of Star Wars (namely Ep 7) and the new Ghostbusters movie.

The SW boycott was laughable both in aim (google "Little white cuck ball" for articles on it) and effectiveness. The Ghostbusters one... the film was genuinely awful, and I suspect the boycott actually had the opposite effect of that intended, as it became impossible to determine if the film was awful from the social media comments on it, so many people went to watch it despite seeing lots of awful reviews of it. While it, at best, broke even, it still managed to rake in hundreds of millions of dollars at the box office, something it really shouldn't have done.

As you say, both BP and WW also had "Wah wah SJWs!" type attacks on them and did spectacularly well.

When people have actually done the analysis, the people obsessed with "SJWs" tends to be a tiny minority on every website. The highest estimates of Gamegate, for example, seem to be around the 10,000-20,000 people range during its peak.

I think most people have no problems with women or black people and recognize that both are marginalized groups. In such a context, being more upset that someone found a joke in an old episode of Family Guy insensitive to one legged lesbian transgender women than blaming Americas problems on Latin Americans fleeing persecution is, thankfully, a minority situation.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

So far the more diverse Star Wars have done well at the box office, it's the one about a white guy that flopped.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[drakaan]

Clearly a larger-than-normal quantity of mentally damaged racist bigots on the ol' slashdot today. Well, maybe it's a normal amount, but they're being racist bigots pretty loudly today.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Deagol]

You should see what they did with Heathers.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, OOTS. Now that is some good comic stuff you shoeless gods of wars!

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

WW and Black Panther demonstrated beyond all doubt that audiences are fine with women and black people in lead roles, even being most of the movie. I think that really pissed off a lot of the SJW-obsessed, they had been so sure they would fail and they would be vindicated.

The horrible realisation that the world has largely moved on really hurt them, so they are determined to prove that Star Wars is dying because it isn't just white guys any more.

I thought the new Ghostbusters was okay... Not terrible, not great. Thor Ragnarock was good, which they are now upset about because gay people like it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Anytime there is an attack on an entire demographic, there will be backlash, and not just from people in said demographic. I've seen plenty of "SJW topic" support from people that aren't actually in that demographic and would seem to have little reason to care about it themselves.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[mchall]

Wow, dirk. You completely missed his point and accused him of bias that's just not there. He said the problem wasn't Riri's identity. The problem was that she was a horribly written character. He pointed to another POC that was well written as a example of how that character had previously been changed in a more plausible manner.

I didn't read the series, so I can't say whether she was a good character or not.

So his point may be valid regarding poor writing, but since you haven't read it you're just going to piss all over it? Go do your homework first and quit shouting "racism" and "sexism" where none exists.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[cascadingstylesheet]

The answer is obvious. The goal is transparent. The push is to replace characters we have loved with more politically correct equivalents.....not to write badass stories with compelling plots.

Precisely.

Analogous in another area: Boy Scouts. Did they build an alternate scouting organization that was compelling enough to thrive? No, they did a basically hostile takeover of the existing one. Because "see, we own it now, ha ha lulz". That's the actual point of it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I was rather surprised to find out Iron Man is now a black female teenager. I've never read print comics, so I can only guess that it's as stupid as my imagination suggests.

I have no idea why one would pay four bucks per comic book when you can read stuff like 'Kill Six Billion Demons' and 'Digger' for free.

I guess you're also too remember when Iron Man, yes the real Iron Man and not a spin off, was a weed smoking black dude.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[squiggleslash]

Yeah, their boycotts of SW have fallen flat. The only one that failed is Solo, and that was despite being the closest movie to "what they want" (to the point there's what might be called an SJW Robot in it, that's played for laughs at the expense of so-called SJWs, and no women have purple hair!); it's almost as if cinema audiences want good films with diverse characters they can relate to, rather than stuff the SJW-obsessed want...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[UnknownSoldier]

You are forgetting Stupid Juvenile Whiners tactics Rule #4.

4. Never take responsibility

Even worse is the SJW comic bookstore owners insulting customers when they ask if they carry a certain line of comics. /Oblg. #GetWokeGoBroke

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[UnknownSoldier]

I wish these these Stupid Juvenile Whiners would stop hijacking OTHER people's characters and go make their own.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[terrycarlino]

My anger is reserved for those who have so little confidence in their own ability to create minority characters with their own interesting back story and character development that they feel the only way minority characters can prosper is to steal the reputation and readership of established white male characters.

Compare:

Black Panther a Marvel character with a long history of his own. His well made movie was a blockbuster.

Wonder Woman a DC character with a long history of her own. Her well made movie was the best of the entire DC releases.

Ghostbusters an attempt to replace well loved male characters with women. A complete failure.

Ocean's 8. Enough said.

Replacement of major Marvel Characters with gender swapping and blackwashing. Sales plummet.

Want to be successful? Create interesting minority characters who have their own story and their own mantel. Or have them steal the mantels of successful white male characters and see them fail as a property.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[UnknownSoldier]

> Ghostbusters, I seem to recall got very lukewarm reviews, though I did see it.

Too bad you already wasted your time with that shit movie.

RedLetterMedia does a fantastic job explaining WHY it was a crap movie WITHOUT even discussing ANY "gender" issues.

* Mr. Plinkett's Ghostbusters (2016) Review and
* Half in the Bag Episode 112: Ghostbusters (2016)

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[terrycarlino]

When you replace an existing white male character with a black woman for no other purpose than getting rid of the white male character that is both sexist and racist.

But I guess that's alight because, you know, white men deserve it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

Reminds me of that meme with all the near identical brooding white dudes from video games. It's a good point, they are all the same two dimensional angst ridden violence machines, but the moment anyone actually tries to do anything different they get slammed for pandering to diversity and SJWs.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[terrycarlino]

FDR's New Deal extended a normal cyclical economic depression into the Great Depression. It hurt far more people than it helped.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[djinn6]

SJW screeching will put that genie back in the bottle.

Oh so you do care what other people think aof you and say about you. Otherwise you wouldn't be using what you clearly think of as insults.

The term SJW is an insult to you? Ok, but I'm just using the term to describe people who try to force their morals on everyone else. I would use "moralist" instead, but their morals are very different from conservative Christians. I can also say "third-wave feminist", but that's awfully long and it's not entirely clear that all of them are actually feminists.

Your psycho-analysis is completely off mark, as is your ability to quote things properly. What I call them has no bearing on whether I care what they think or not. Pretty sure the KKK still calls black people "n i g g e r s", and they're definitely not trying to get blacks to like them.

Oh and apparently Slashdot's spam filter is just a bunch of regexes. No, using the word "n i g g e r s" is not indicative of spam or troll. There are legitimate cases such as a discussion of culturally important terminology where the use of unsavory words is required to illustrate a point.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

So far the more diverse Star Wars have done well at the box office, it's the one about a white guy that flopped.

Or was it the annoying android?

A lot of Star Wars fans we not pleased with the direction that the movies were taking. And it wasn't merely the social justice aspect. It was that the story lines were getting rather bad, and plot holes, and a few things that made no sense. Taking a new Jedi and turning this new into a Mary Sue character, or Marty Stu if you please just annoys people - In addition, the people involved with producing the movies were pretty dismissive of any criticism. As Kathleen Sullivan noted:

"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, 'Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'"

That's pretty offensive. I've seen a lot of female Star Wars fans - many of them who are pissed at the new direction. But here's the interesting part - while giving lip service to her responsibility to the company she works with, does she not have the responsibility to make that company money? When she gave her giant "Fuck you!" to the fans who put the Star Wars franchise where it was - both male and female fans.

Movies and comics are entertainment, and nothing else. You pick an audience and produce works that you believe will attract them to give you money in return for being entertained. Kennedy and Disney are allowed to Change Star Wars into an intergalactic version of Glee if they so wish. But will the people they have chosen to be their new audience give their money just like the audience they discarded?

There is a vanishingly small but no zero chance that the reason that Solo failed was because it had a white man as the leading character. While that might be the case, you will need to explain how other movies with white male lead characters have excelled and made a lot of money for their producers in the same time period that somehow people decided that Solo needed to fail. Hard to defend the argument. Occam's razor says that since a lot of fans who were upset at being chased away and were vocal about it did exactly what they said they would do.

It all comes down to this. The people that Disney needs to replace the people they abandoned need to step up and pay it forward. Solo, which was apparently a decent movie after Ron Howard took over and recued it from the disaster it was heading to after the people Kennedy used to produce it, was ignored by the abandoned fans, while the new socially conscious fans did not replace them.

The movie is going to lose between 50 and 80 million dollars in the end. Disney will need to decide if they want to lose that much money in order to appease those who demand that matters that happened in a far away galaxy a long time ago must have 21st century social justice issues at the expense of good storytelling or not. One thing is for certain. The old Star Wars movies were pretty certain to generate a lot of money, and Disney and Lucasfilms could demand a lot of money and length of showing from the theaters. I suspect they will need to lessen the demands - a lot.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrm, seems like they could just stop pumping it full of SJW propaganda and sales would come back

Yeah, given how many mutants seem to be gay in Marvel (close to 50% now), it's a wonder that home sapiens are afraid of homo superior. And don't get me started on homo supreme. Yes, that's a thing in Marvel, and was the butt of a gay joke in Marvel.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

My statement that there was some credence to it being a systemic attack. This is derived, as I implied, from the swarm of "Gamer identity is dead" articles posted in concert with each other during gamergate. Makes me suspicious, like I saw a mask being torn. I don't consider it proof, but it's not tinfoil hat territory either. Here is one list.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

Yes I saw it. A great stride for gender equality because it shows that women are every bit as good as men at making mediocre, pointless reboots. And that was the problem really, it had no point.

I didn't hate it, and it had it's moments, but far too few because it basically was stunningly mediocre. Very much a 2* film (there are much much worse films deserving of 1*). Would not watch again.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

You suck at reading, that was not the premise. They are lunatics was.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think anyone did because I think it never aired.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

why not both?

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing wrong with that

Whether or not there is something wrong with such things depends upon the implementation. Give them their own back story, yeah sure no problem. Take an existing character's back story and shoe-horn in your pet gender/race/sexual-orientation/whatever because "diversity", and it's only going to come across as patronizing.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

No there is no systematic attack, this is simply the result of ongoing public scrutiny.

As for gamers, it turns out that public scrutiny looks down on the kind of shit that Anita Sarkeesian had to endure, especially as critics don't generally like it when people try to silence one of them. I can't imagine why!

As for that link: the forum has no credibility so nothing there can be taken as correct or even likely without full scrutiny. That means I would essential have to do research to validate your point, which is not how it works.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that really pissed off a lot of the SJW-obsessed, they had been so sure they would fail and they would be vindicated.

As someone you would likely call "SJW-obsessed", I feel vindicated because those movies didn't fail. Are you even aware of the variety of non-bigoted reasons one might have with the SJW movement? Or do you just lump us all together in the same bigoted bucket (which would mean that some of us are bigoted against ourselves?), allowing you to safely dismiss whatever we might have to say, never having to think that maybe, just maybe, there are some real problems with your movement?

Judging from your sig, I'd be willing to bet big bucks it's the latter.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

My advice is to be less self righteous when you are also being lazy.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

When you replace an existing white male character with a black woman for no other purpose than getting rid of the white male character that is both sexist and racist.

But I guess that's alight because, you know, white men deserve it.

Right - when it becomes gratuitous, or even worse taunting.

When it comes to racism and sexism, we all have things to learn. But both far left and far right reject that their position is racist and sexist. That in itself is a big clue.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Areyoukiddingme]

The moment I get the feeling the author deems me so dimwitted that they needn't bother with making something fit into canon, I get very, VERY annoyed with said author. And THAT more than anything makes me not want to read and much less buy this crap. You want to push your dogma? Go right ahead. I don't hold it against you. But make sure you pick me up on your journey gently and don't make me hop into a car going twenty miles an hour.

Canon got tossed into the trash bin of history in the early 1960s when DC created Earth-Two, and it's been downhill ever since. Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, Ultimate Universe, and on and on and on. I don't know which is worse, the ones doing it because they're lazy writers or the ones doing it because they're better writers than the original. I gave up on comics written after the 1960s in large part because continuity became completely irrelevant to all comic book publishers, major and minor. Infinitely malleable fiction is one of the more boring and stupid tropes ever invented.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

My advice is you don't post links to places with no crediblity and act like you have actally made a case.

If you're too lazy to find proper sources then it is not my job to prove your poit for you.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

The error in your line of thinking is thinking that all liberals are like that.

Another case of Me vs. You that the establishment worked so hard to perpetrate.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

You are the biggest idiot on this forum. Even trolls have better discourse than you. I truly believe you are mentally ill.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[squiggleslash]

You'll notice that all these articles were written at the end of August. KIA/GG uses that of evidence of a system(at)ic attack. You're apparently agreeing with that analysis, simply on the basis of multiple articles being written at around the same time.

Buuuuut...

How many articles about Radical Islamic extremism were written on 9/12/2001? How many articles about gun control were published on 4/21/1999?

The articles weren't written out the blue. They were written because a conflation of right wing extremism among a vocal portion of the gaming community occurred at around that time. And journalists within the video game industry were reacting to it.

On August 16th, the "Zoe Post" was published. This was a post by the rejected suitor of a video game developer Zoe Quinn which made a number of allegations against her, essentially "slut shaming" her. Under normal circumstances, this would have been lost in the noise, one entitled whackjob bitching about a woman he couldn't have, but he promoted it carefully in a number of forums he felt might be sympathetic, including promoting knowledge that there was some form of relationship between Quinn and a gaming journalist (there was, but the journalist hadn't written about her since, and the Quinn's games are free anyway.)

Certain groups took the bait, and this was blown into a conspiracy, initially called (because this was an attempt to slut shame Quinn) "Five Guys" (and the related #burgersandfries) and The Quinnspiracy. "Internet Aristocrat" uploaded a video entitled "Quinnspiracy: The Five Guys Saga" on August 18th.

So, this was happening, and at the same time as this was happening Anita Sarkeesian, a feminist media critic, was publishing the first videos in her "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" series - and was getting shat on for her work. She'd already been publishing these videos for a year at this point, and was pretty much constantly receiving threats and other harassment since she started. Unlike the Quinn stuff, it wasn't new, but it was increasing and becoming a very noisy part of the background by the time the gaming media noticed that, maybe, perhaps, some gamers aren't very nice people.

Let's go back to Quinn. By August 20th, the media was involved - not because they wanted to promote any viewpoint, but because the dubious link promoted by the author of the Zoepost between Quinn and a journalist had been relayed through the telephone game a few times and had now become "Quinn had sex with journalist in return for positive coverage." As I said earlier, this never happened, the journalist involved had not written about her since months before they had a brief relationship.

So now the media couldn't very well ignore it. They were:

1. Dragged into a bizarre attempt by a whackjob to harass a woman who wouldn't have sex with him.
2. Forced to defend themselves against bogus claims of corruption.
3. Continuing to watch the Sarkeesian saga play out.

And it got worse.

More videos were published. Sarkeesian was forced to leave her home due to death threats. And on August 27th, for some bizarre reason Adam Baldwin, of Firefly fame, decides to fan the flames and promote IA's video, captioning it "Gamergate". The name stuck.

Now, are you entirely surprised, given that was what was happening at the time, there were quite a few articles from journalists who were more than a little pissed off with the gaming community at that time?

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Uberbah]

As you say, both BP and WW also had "Wah wah SJWs!" type attacks on them

No, they didn't. That was just Demagogue Culture scrounging Twitter comments to find a stupid post they could blow out of all proportion and pretend it was some kind of movement. That's the model they used for Force Awakens on a black stormtrooper, as if Star Wars fans haven't been aware of Lando for the last few decades.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

You'd be making good points but for the language they chose to use. The thing of it is they had a tag to apply to those they were angry with: GamerGate. However one feels about the events involved, it was an agreed upon name. Not "gamers" but "GamerGate."

A few articles lumped in with the rest were indeed responsible and did use their terms correctly. They don't belong in attempts to pad the lists out. But those responsible articles certainly look to be in the minority. The common trend was articles specifically titled along the lines of "gamers are dead." And plenty of those ran with the idea whole cloth. The message was: It's "gamers" we want dead, not gamergate. It was widespread and despicable.

Was it organic or a conspiracy? I don't think it's crazy to see all these articles released at the same time and imagine writers talking to each other. I don't think it's crazy to see it as a natural trend as you describe. Like I said, it might be worth investigating.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

And there is no reason to think if they had replaced Tony with a white man the story still wouldn't have been terrible.

They *did* replace Tony with a white man. Thrice. And the first two times were deliberately terrible. Norman Osborn (Green Goblin) took Tony's armor and role and showed just how EVIL all straight white males are. Then Tony was replaced by "Superior" Tony, who was a morally inverted version of himself. The third time was with Doctor Doom. Doctor Doom at the same time as Riri.

If she was white and male and written the same way, you still wouldn't have like her (at least I hope not), so your issue is with the storytelling and not the character. Blaming the character for being poor written (at least in your eyes) is like blaming a painting because you don't like it.

I think it's both. There have been a lot of young minority *OMG they're smarter than Reed Richards* kids lately in Marvel, and without useful explanation. Valeria Richards has Reed as her dad, so that explains her.

Just the young black girls who came out of nowhere: we have Lunella Lafayette, Riri Williams, and Onome. At least Onome has a believable backstory as she's Wakandan. The other two girls build superscience things which Stark and Richards didn't build until adulthood and exposure to alien technologies.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Luckyo]

You appear to be confusing the indie comics scene with large scale commercial operations.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

When people have actually done the analysis, the people obsessed with "SJWs" tends to be a tiny minority on every website.

Which makes it all the more hilarious watching you guys keep being obsessed about this tiny minority.

The highest estimates of Gamegate, for example, seem to be around the 10,000-20,000 people range during its peak.

Which, again, makes it funny when it was the gaming journalists who blew the thing out of proportion, making GG bigger than it would have been if people just ignored it.

Don't just take it from me. Here's somebody who bothered to make a video analogy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

In such a context, being more upset that someone found a joke in an old episode of Family Guy insensitive to one legged lesbian transgender women than blaming Americas problems on Latin Americans fleeing persecution is, thankfully, a minority situation.

What isn't a minority situation however is the tactic of discrediting the majority of conservatives based on this small minority. I think it's one of the biggest reasons we can't have any meaningful dialogue.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Uberbah]

So far the more diverse Star Wars have done well at the box office, it's the one where they took a character that's been around for almost four decades and made him pansexual because reasons

Or that.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[drakaan]

That's not a trolling statement. Just an observation that there were plenty of overtly racist statements being made at the time, sheesh.

Price, content

[harvey the nerd]

Prices are a little high, even allowing for inflation.

Content, thin mags where much content is hmmm to ugh.

Re:Price, content

[Jason1729]

I logged in to say just this. In 1961 in the middle of the golden age of comics, a comic cost 10 cents and federal minimum wage was $1.15. (11.5 comics per hour).

In 2018, the cover price of a DC comic (regular, plain old, non-special edition) is $3.99 and minimum wage is $7.25 per hour (less than 2 comics per hour). They are absurdly expensive today.

Not to mention that I can buy an AAA video game a couple of year old on steam for the price of a few comics and get a heck of a lot more entertainment value for it. Comics today are about the worst rip-off possible in the entertainment industry.

Re:Price, content

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to buy comics in the 80s and early 90s. I was a pretty hard-core Marvel mutant reader. I read some Elfquest and one or two other independent titles. As a kid with a minimal allowance and no job (too young) I could at least afford a few titles each week. I can't imagine how a kid from a middle class family with a minimal allowance and no job would afford 5 or 6 issues a week. Or even 3 or 4.

And how many times are Marvel and DC going to reset their universes? I know that the "independent" producers are more successful now than back then and there are some great stories like Manifest Destiny and East of West, but most people think of Marvel and DC as comics. As far as I'm concerned, those two companies produce crap and I wouldn't pay for any of their books anyway. I don't want to pay for their movies either. Given that Marvel is now a Disney property and I despise Disney for its approach to intellectual property, I am really anti-Marvel.

Re:Price, content

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the art and printing quality from then compared to now. Also compare storylines, arcs, etc. The cost increase is justified.

Re:Price, content

[Jason1729]

Tech has gotten better, printing quality has gotten better and much, much cheaper. To say that justifies higher cost for the same content is idiotic. A new-release blu ray this year, is a heck of a lot cheaper in real dollars than a new-release VHS was 30 years ago. But look at the video quality of the bluray. Look at the special effects budget of the movie on that bluray. And yet it's cheaper in real dollars.

While most things have gotten much cheaper in real dollars since the 1960's, comics are almost completely unique in having increased insanely in real dolllar price.

And look at the specs of my laptop that cost $1000 today, and compare it to the iconic Toshiba T1000 that cost $2700 corrected to inflation back in 1986.

A "growing crisis"?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis"

The whole premise is wrong. Things don't NEED to keep growing perpetually, you fucking dipshits. That's when things turn SHIT.

that might work for dc or especially disney..

[Anonymous Coward]

that has (and owns the rights to) a lot of related content that isn't actual comic books, and is more suitable for online / streaming consumption, but not so much for the smaller publishers that only sell dead-tree coloring books that are already filled-in.

SJW Mafia Tactics

[Kunedog]

After an extremely successful IndieGogo campaign, leftist comic book stores colluded to refuse carrying Jawbreakers, and to intimidate the publisher into pulling out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Something that readers clearly want is being denied to them by the SJW cancer in the industry.

Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis: Flagging interest from readers and competition from digital entertainment are dragging down sales.

What a surprise that you'd deliberately ignore the elephant in the room.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

After an extremely successful IndieGogo campaign, leftist comic book stores colluded to refuse carrying Jawbreakers, and to intimidate the publisher into pulling out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Something that readers clearly want is being denied to them by the SJW cancer in the industry.

Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis: Flagging interest from readers and competition from digital entertainment are dragging down sales.

What a surprise that you'd deliberately ignore the elephant in the room.

Well, They are sayingStar Wars Solo Flopped because it had a while male lead. Far left political activists are just as racist, sexist, and can dredge up their own self validating excuses as well as the far right wingnuts can do.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[mvdwege]

Really, that 'white male lead is the problem' meme started as fucking joke in progressive circles. I was there, I saw the first appearance of it, and I had to chuckle, as I just knew the screams of rage that would cause from the knuckle-dragging basement dwellers.

As you just went on to prove. Thank you.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[serviscope_minor]

After an extremely successful IndieGogo campaign,

That's great! They're successful independents. They got enough money to do the thing they wanted to do.

eftist comic book stores colluded to refuse carrying Jawbreaker

Sounds like you're saying "I got money you have to like me now!!!"

Those "leftist" comic book stores can carry whatever they like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Oh good grief youtbe links. No thanks. I've sat through far too many videos by the sort of people who complain about SJW back in the gamergate days and without exception they were awful and a colosal waste of time.

Even conservative publications it appears don't agree with your description of the situation:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/...

Something that readers clearly want is being denied to them by the SJW cancer in the industry.

It got funded on indegogo. I'm sure theycan manage to print and distribute to the funders. I've seen successful campaings do that without ever engaging a publisher.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[AmiMoJo]

Who are "they"? Do you have a link to them saying this?

All the reviews I have read say it flopped because it was not a very good movie.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Really, that 'white male lead is the problem' meme started as fucking joke in progressive circles. I was there, I saw the first appearance of it, and I had to chuckle, as I just knew the screams of rage that would cause from the knuckle-dragging basement dwellers.

As you just went on to prove. Thank you.

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

But allow this knuckle dragger to go on here.

We live in an age where one's commentary lives forever once on the internet.

It is not remotely difficult to find examples of people claiming that white men are the problem a simple DDG search or Google search will provide examples - try it

Huff Post White Men Of Academia Have An ‘Objectivity’ Problem https://www.huffingtonpost.com...

White males are a problem population, according to Saida Grundy of Boston U. https://www.thenewamerican.com...

https://www.damemagazine.com/2...

Here's one that is an interesting read https://www.huffingtonpost.com... Authored by a woman of African descent, it is both racist and has a kernal of truth in it.

I'm bored now - you want any more do the work yourself.

Are there people that are considered "white" who are obvious racists? Oh hell yes. And history is littered with their crimes.

But yes Virginia, there are people of all races and creeds and political affiliations that are racist. "white" is considered a race. Men are considered a sex. Unless you are referring to medical issues that might affect one group over another like the issues fair skinned people have in tropical sunny environments to issues faced by people with dark pigmentation face with Vitamin D shortage in northern environments, referring to angry white men is the same as referring to angry black men.

And y'all can deny you are racist just as well as the guy who likes to dress in bedsheets and burn crosses on the lawns of people they have identified by race.

tl;dr version: The far left shouldn't make jokes that look and read exactly how they feel. If you make a "joke" that reads exactly how people who are serious racists write, you'll have to forgive people who look at your "joke" and believe you mean the same.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[squiggleslash]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Or maybe, just maybe, right wingers are unable to comprehend jokes and humor?

I still remember the feeling of disbelief I had pre-GG when someone told me what a terrible woman Jessica Valenti was. "She hates men" the poster cried. "She does?" I said with surprise, having just read an article by her on how great it is we celebrate Father's Day, and how grateful she was to her dad for being a positive force in her life and wonderful role model. "Yes, did you see? She wore a T-shirt captioned "I bathe in male tears!" She must hate men!"

You have to be spectacularly dumb to think the male tears thing is anything but a joke, especially knowing the context (Valenti had, at that point, suffered years of abusive death threats and other shitty behavior from so-called critics due to her feminist advocacy, almost all of which characterizing her work as anti-men) but it does seem like a sizable part of the group obsessed with so-called SJWs really cannot tell the difference between someone making fun of you by repeating your own language back at you (such snowflakes these people are!) and genuine beliefs.

So... you think the "white male lead is a problem" thing was serious, huh? You don't think... given how improbable it is that someone would say "Movies are failing because they do something almost every movie has done since Harold Lloyd was hanging from clocks at the top of tall buildings, and how similar the criticism is to the protests of the manosphere against movies like Rogue One with merely the roles reversed, that it might have been a joke?

A really, really, obvious joke?

A joke so fucking obvious I'm actually having difficultly believing you wrote an essay on how "the far left" says things apparently seriously and then pretends they're jokes, using this as the example, but, I have to believe it, because you did?

I'd make a joke about it, but you'd probably take me seriously...

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[mvdwege]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Funny. Every time a kerfluffle about sexism starts online it's you manbabies crying "bitches can't take a joke"

Take your projection, and stuff it up your arse, you bigoted wanker.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Who are "they"? Do you have a link to them saying this?

All the reviews I have read say it flopped because it was not a very good movie.

I'm curious - is serviscope_minor a sock puppet of yours? Just noticed after I ignore that one's posts, you pop up. And there are some similarities, except he's much ruder, and fun to ignore.

But I've seen a litany of reasons. But only a few touched on fan revolt.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Funny. Every time a kerfluffle about sexism starts online it's you manbabies crying "bitches can't take a joke"

Take your projection, and stuff it up your arse, you bigoted wanker.

Do tell us more - Also consider posting as an AC - I do understand that you are racist and sexist - I am firmly in the middle, and you left wing kooks merely serve to entertain me. As do the Right Wingnuts, it's especially fun to see you at each other's throats.

Sorry, but from a not idelogical perspective you are teh same thing as those you coonsider your enemies - A racist sexist bigot. Now get back to making me laugh sparky - it's raining here, and I'm stuck at the computer with the need to piss someone off - and you show potential, muchacho.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Or maybe, just maybe, right wingers are unable to comprehend jokes and humor?

You'l have to ask a right winger. I just speak truth to either side.

"Yes, did you see? She wore a T-shirt captioned "I bathe in male tears!" She must hate men!"

That is a whole awful lot of semen to take a bath in! Because Male tears is slang for male ejaculate.

So... you think the "white male lead is a problem" thing was serious, huh?

Here's the issue. If you can simply say that anything that blows up in your face is a joke - Then the kooks on the right can say that Their disgrace as a president was just joking when he bragged about grabbing women by the pussy.

Sorry muchacho - you want special privileges. Just like the far right does.

It doesn't matter one bathtub of male tears what I think - although that must have been one hell of a bukake moment, amirite?

You don't think... given how improbable it is that someone would say "Movies are failing because they do something almost every movie has done since Harold Lloyd was hanging from clocks at the top of tall buildings, and how similar the criticism is to the protests of the manosphere against movies like Rogue One with merely the roles reversed, that it might have been a joke?

One thing I've found is that neither the far left or far right have much of a sense of humor. While the middle left does indeed make the best humor, the extremes are too full of themselves to actually be funny. It tends to come out as either sadistic or bitter.

I'd make a joke about it, but you'd probably take me seriously...

Sorry squiggleslash - I definitely do not take you seriously.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

I was there to serving food to you assholes. I didn't think the white hoods were funny.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[mvdwege]

I do understand that you are racist and sexist

"You are the real racists!!!11!!". Wonderful. Two more and I have Bingo.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

I do understand that you are racist and sexist

"You are the real racists!!!11!!". Wonderful. Two more and I have Bingo.

You'll get there, I have faith in you.

OUTED

[Kunedog]

By using the term "SJW", you have OUTED yourself as someone who has had to deal with annoying, dishonest, power hungry, attention-seeking, hypocritical SJWs.

Re:OUTED

[ITRambo]

SJW's are a very pushy minority. The market is telling them to dial it back. I hope all of the entertainment industry realizes that they need to appeal to the morals and ethos of their customer, or lose the customers.

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut the fuck up you white racists, Superman is now a proud black transsexual and you all can fucking eat it.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

By using the term "SJW", you have OUTED yourself as someone who has had to deal with annoying, dishonest, power hungry, attention-seeking, hypocritical SJWs.

I think the folks who modded you as a troll did not catch the meaning of your post.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

Wow - that was a strange post to have marked as a troll. Le't see if I can explain this situation in a manner that won't trigger anyone.

Let us say that a group of people want 21st century politics brought into say, Star Wars movies or comic books.

Let's say that want character's sexual identity to be a focus, perhaps more female and less male characters, Okay, so after discussions, the creators of the movies put people in place that will promote your agenda. This will be a radical shift, and will dismiss what the traditional audience wishes to see, which in these cases is obviously escapist entertainment with a good story line.

So here is the most important part - if people with a political agenda succeed in turning away the traditional customers, then the people with that political agenda must become the new customers. Which is what I believe ITRambo is saying.

We saw a huge fan revolt with Star Wars - Solo. And the weird Disney response was it was the fault of White males. https://www.tigerdroppings.com... Original article was on Forbes - they provide link but Forbes won't let me in.

Aside from the blatant racism (white) and Sexism (males) it was failure to see the forest for the agenda.

Point is - if you want your comic books and sci-fi movies to be politically correct, sensitive to who the characters like to have sex with - and display it - and socially inclusive, making these films about otherworld characters reflect 21st century shortcomings........

You have to go to the movies and You have to buy the comic books, and You have to buy the action figures that the people You kicked off the train used to do. You own it now - so spend that money or you won't own it long.

And seriously, if you feel you have to mark this little bit of good advice as troll, it only indicates that you can't take telling. Support your causes, not just complain.

Re: OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

Shut the fuck up you nlgger Nazi Trump loving GOP INCEL faggot retard kike!

Wow, women want you, men want to be like you. Please, tell us more!

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah they did. They just don't like hearing about how they come across.

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

SJW's are a very pushy minority. The market is telling them to dial it back. I hope all of the entertainment industry realizes that they need to appeal to the morals and ethos of their customer, or lose the customers.

Or maybe the nazi loving libertarian loonies who infest and run comic stores are getting their desired results and driving away the SJWs who choosing to spend their money elsewhere.

Re: OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually if you turn everything you just said upside down then youâ(TM)d be right, at least about one place:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBffIvhwrXo

Re:OUTED

[AmiMoJo]

But that was the one that was about a straight white male... Surely if diversity was the problem then the other three new-era films would have flopped and Solo would have been a huge success.

Maybe it's just not a very good film, or we have reached Star Wars saturation point.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

Yeah they did. They just don't like hearing about how they come across.

That's pretty sad. Not knowing one's self never works out well.

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

The prevalent theory is that The Last Jedi was so bad, it drove away most of the old time demographic. The newer demographic just doesn't care that much about Star Wars, and are not large enough to support it by themselves.

Re: OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually if you turn everything you just said upside down then youâ(TM)d be right, at least about one place:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBffIvhwrXo

I know I'm right about the past 4 places I've been in, I have never seen a group of people so in love with Alex Jones in my life.

Re: OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

In love with Alex Jones? Filter your water.

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

His post was quite logical and insightful. You're the one trolling.

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

nazi loving libertarian

Yes, comics are beset by oxymorons that don't exist.

You brain-dead pinhead.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

But that was the one that was about a straight white male... Surely if diversity was the problem then the other three new-era films would have flopped and Solo would have been a huge success.

Maybe it's just not a very good film, or we have reached Star Wars saturation point.

No, the sequence of events was that after Rogue one, there was some murmering among the fans regarding the direction the franchise was taking. That was the time that Kennedy told the world that she wasn't there to serve men.

Next up, the Last Jedi was simply a lame film. Yes, there were some social Justice aspects, but also some awful plot lines, and some simply ridiculous parts of the movie. Think Princess Leia's Mary Poppins debacle. Now there have been some not so good Star Wars films in the past, but Kennedy et al met any criticism with condescension. A complaint is a gift, and they refused the gift. So the fans who complained simply said they were going to stay way. And they did.

As I noted in another post, Disney and Kennedy can turn the Star Wars Franchise into an intergalactic RuPaul's Drag Race, or here comes Honey Boo-Boo In Orbit if they like. They own the rights.

But don't blame the male fans after chasing them away. Oh - plenty of female Star Wars fans stayed home as well.

Re:OUTED

[painandgreed]

But that was the one that was about a straight white male... Surely if diversity was the problem then the other three new-era films would have flopped and Solo would have been a huge success.

Maybe it's just not a very good film, or we have reached Star Wars saturation point.

Maybe it was because it was right after two other big block busters? Many of the shared fans went to see Infinity War and Deadpool multiple times. Solo landed at the wrong time. I like going to the movies, but no to the point of going to them every Friday for a month. While that probably wasn't all the issue, I bet that it didn't help at all.

Re:OUTED

[AmiMoJo]

The trailers for Solo looked really bad.

Re:OUTED

[Areyoukiddingme]

Shut the fuck up you white racists, Superman is now a proud black transsexual and you all can fucking eat it.

Superman was already a proud black man. Bizarro is his opposite, and he's pasty white. Therefore Superman is black.

Re: OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm? Must be why you got modded down and he got modded up.

Looks like you turned out to be the idiot.

Re: OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

You are guilty the same as him. He used SJW in a post and so did you. Deal with it. You are the same person. A bunch of fucking soy boy fags who are beta cucks.

Re:OUTED

[Radiophobic]

Definitely Star Wars saturation point. I saw the first new new Star Wars film, almost out of morbid curiosity. It was ok, but wasn't enough to make me want to see any of the others. I did appreciate the fact that the neither of the main characters were straight white males.

As it stands, every time I see a poster for a new star wars film I roll my eyes and think to myself "Do we really need another one of those?".

I can guarantee you the studio knows full well what the actual causes of failure were. They aren't going to start admitting that it was people being bored of star wars movies; they still have a lot of money invested in the property. If they actually blamed its lack of success on white males, it probably seemed the safest scapegoat for both the stockholders and consumers.

Re:OUTED

[drsquare]

The morals and ethos of all the characters being white men?

Here's an idea that just might work

[Opportunist]

Produce what sells and not what some loudmouths that never bought comic books (and never will) demand.

Yes, it is actually that easy.

DC's aware of this

[rsilvergun]

They're pushing a 100 page comic for distribution at Walmarts

I think the killer is the nerd economy just keeps getting worse. I see more and more people here on work visas and less opportunity for nerds. A lot of the nerds I know still making OK money are working 60-80 hours a week to do it. You don't have time for comic collecting when you're pulling those kinds of hours.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Hognoxious]

Of course you have time for collecting them. Now reading, that's another thing.

But look on the bright side - if they haven't been read they'll be worth more when you're sacked for being over 40.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Bing Tsher E]

WTF is the 'nerd economy.'

I think you mean the hyped up bullshit that's been marketed as 'nerd' for about the last decade.

The nerd economy goes on at ham radio swapmeets. It thrives out behind the science building at universities where cool old equipment is being captured and saved by nerds instead of being thrown away. In nerd-owned labs where old 'scopes and power supplies are used to fix and build new gear. In darkened amateur observatories where people who've ground their own mirrors gaze up at night.

'Nerd' as marketed by the popular entertainment operation was always a marketing fraud operation.

If you read too many mainstream comix, you can't be a nerd. Nerds are much more likely into hard SF.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the nerd economy really is in trouble. For example, it's even difficult to find a place to purchase electronics components in Silicon Valley nowadays. Silicon Valley used to be the Mecca for electronics-nerds, but it just isn't anymore--getting that kind of selection at an electronics store now requires going overseas.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a nerd. I hope to get an H1 equivalent soon. I grew up reading comics in Asia. But at $4.24, I could not realistically consider getting into the habit again. But 100 pages at $5, I would. I don't mind cheaper paper and other cost cutting. I really don't need Holograms on my comic covers, at least that was what the last one I bought had. Make them like Manga, except in color - inexpensive paper, good story lines and plenty of content. Print them on tabloid quality paper, not as "collectables", I am not in the market for those.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Anonymous Coward]

if you had said the "real economy" as in outside of wall street investment bankers you'd be more accurate

Re:DC's aware of this

[Bing Tsher E]

True, but 'brick and mortar' electronic components have suffered the same way as other retail. DigiKey has almost anything you could imagine wanting and they ship fast.

Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[rsilvergun]

was successful. The comic is widely available.

What you're referring to seems to stem from an article Buzz Feed ran here complaining that people who pushed for more diversity in comics were being trolled, harassed and threatened. Because everyone in the media likes to boil stuff down to a controversy they called the phenomenon "comicsgate".

Pushes for diversity in comics have been going on since the mid-90s boom times. You can't pin the drop in sales on that because it's a nearly 25 year old movement in the industry. The goal isn't to be "SJW" it's to expand readership beyond young teen boys. Girls in particular are a desirable target demographic because, well, they read a lot more than boys (seriously, look it up, or ask yourself what the biggest hit books are and take a look at how they appeal to girls).

The industry's flagging not because of diversity, it's flagging because the entire US economy's in the crapper for everyone but the top 10% or so and those people are busy enjoying their wealth instead of reading comics (the occasional Sultan in Dubai aside). The nerd economy in particular is hurting because of outsourcing and in-sourcing (e.g. H1-Bs). Comic book publishers have lost their last remaining base. They lost the kids to video games and now they've lost the nerds to, well, supply side economics.

TL;DR, it's the economy stoopid (TM)

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Anonymous Coward]

The goal isn't to be "SJW" it's to expand readership beyond young teen boys. Girls in particular are a desirable target demographic ...

The industry's flagging not because of diversity, it's flagging because the entire US economy's in the crapper

That's one theory. Another theory is that going SJW is alienating the core readership (teenage boys), and isn't bringing in enough girls to compensate for the loss of the boys.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[samdu]

You've managed to point out the lunacy of the SJW movement and its lack of necessity all in the same post, attempting to disprove either. You are absolutely correct in that comics have been diverse (actually, it goes back WAY past the 90s). The problem is that SJWs saw and see the medium as wildly homogeneous and lacking any diversity. So they felt the had to do something about it. What they did was replace classic characters Iron Man (to a black, female teenager), Hulk (to a young asian guy), Thor (to a female), Captain America (to a black man), Ice Man (well, not replaced physically, but they made a character that had been straight since the 60s into a gay man), etc... etc... And even worse, they did it willy-nilly and badly. Stories ceased to matter. All that mattered was representation and making sure to poke straight white dudes in the eye at every opportunity on social media. The people that were buying comics before this upheaval spanned several generations who, mostly, never had a problem with a black woman leading the X-Men or a black man taking up the mantle of Iron Man. That these self-same people are rebelling at what Marvel is doing now should speak volumes. And it is. It's just that SJWs don't comprehend what they're hearing because they started from a flawed premise.

You expand a market by bringing in new people. NOT by kicking your existing market out and trying to replace it with a market that doesn't yet exist. Comics tried the latter. It's failing miserably.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Anonymous Coward]

It's honestly probably a small miracle that comic books had a significant audience in the first place. They're one of those hobbies that you'd have a hard time attracting someone to who wasn't already a fan. Deliberately scrapping it all and trying to rebuild from scratch in a completely different market segment would be monumentally suicidal.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Ol Olsoc]

You expand a market by bringing in new people. NOT by kicking your existing market out and trying to replace it with a market that doesn't yet exist. Comics tried the latter. It's failing miserably.

And how! This is what happens when entertainment industries take their marching orders from people who have ideology that can't handle anything but their own narrow views. It never works. And in this case, is tantmount to suicide.

I have an idea. Maybe if we worked from a expansion outlook. There are a lot of popular female characters from a long time ago. I don't know of any gay characters, although there were rumors about Robin and Batman. We don't have to have a gay Green Lantern, or a Female Superman.

Bring out some new characters, maybe?

Let's have a seat and Old Uncle Ol will tell everyone soem stuff that I think traditional fans know already.

Those teenagers that read these comics? Hey - they be doin a liddle projection there. Maybe fancyin' themselves as Batman or The Hulk, or Green Lantern. Or even da Joker, or Catwoman.

Now here we got some Kid who thinks Green Lantern is cool, then suddenly Green Lantern comes out of the closet and says he prefers weiners. Oh man, would we have a field day with that poor bastard when me and the gang were kids.

Gay Characters? No problem. Female? Oh fer crissakes, we've had dem fereva. People freakin' love Wonder Woman, and even Catwoman. But here's da thing. You don't grow yer audience by telling most of them Fuck you! Oh shit - don't tell mom I swore okay? You keep your core audience, and you introduce New Characters! Then maybe that kid that isn't sure of his or her sexuality can become a fan of a character that he or she can project to. And you don't make their gender preferences blatant. These are comics, and If people want to see stuff gender specific, rule 34 does a much better job than mainstream comics can.

Who knew?

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Anonymous Coward]

the entire US economy's in the crapper for everyone but the top 10% or so

Utterly untrue. But you knew that.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Opportunist]

Yes, girls are a very desirable demographic. But the problem they faced, and failed to address, was how to attract that demographic while not alienating the existing audience in the process. They achieved exactly the opposite, they did not pull in new readers while at the same time making existing ones turn away.

It's not an economic problem. Comics were pretty much inflation-adjusted stable until the 1970s when the price started to rise already, and there was no problem. Inflation-adjusted prices doubled from 1970 to 1990 and there was no dip in sales. So it ain't the price, really. We're also not talking about Faberge egg collecting, this is comic books. We're looking at a price tag where you can still buy 2-3 comic books for the price of a delivery pizza, and last time I checked, food delivery isn't about to crumble because people would rather buy frozen stuff and heat it in their microwave rather than order some pizza out.

It is the content.

And it isn't even that traditionally white male roles have been "diversified". We've had that before. What is the problem is that this has become the focus. That action heroes started to be "sensitive" and "talk about their feelings". And nobody reading those comic books really cared about that crap. And while we enjoy back stories and giving characters a (usually tragic) history, there is a reason it's called a back story. It's supposed to flesh the character out and give him some depth, not become the fucking focus of his stories.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[CODiNE]

I was checking out the new Captian Marvel storyline. The character was interesting, it had a lot of that young person not fitting in X-men sort of vibe. The strange thing was how she kept turning into this white blonde pre-existing character. Which actually brings up a whole other set of issues. Eh I liked it. Maybe they eventually make her into her own character without calling her Captian Marvel. Of course in the movies it'll be Calptain Marvel classic. They only really changed Nick Fury there and left the rest alone, wonder why. People have no problem with new characters just don't retcon everything.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[terrycarlino]

I think they went with a black Fury because Marvel Ultimate had a Nick Fury based on Samuel L. Jackson and the chance to actually cast the actor in the role was just too good a chance to pass up. Jackson has made a really good Fury, IMHO, and I'm looking forward to seeing him in his prime in Captain Marvel.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Anonymous Coward]

You're talking about Miss Marvel (Kamala Khan). Captain Marvel is currently Carol Danvers, but has been many other people over the years.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Anonymous Coward]

It is the content.

And it isn't even that traditionally white male roles have been "diversified". We've had that before. What is the problem is that this has become the focus.

I recently read one of the FF books (Fantastic Faux) where Scott Lang (Ant-Man) is in charge when is daughter had just been killed. One of the Moloid children living in the Baxter Building announced itself as transgender, which was brought up repeatedly instead of just glossed over, and just a few pages later, the Wizard (a long-time FF foe) attacked the building, announcing "Useless! All of you pale before our Heteronormative Cisgendered classification of family!" like some sort of SJW version of the boogie-man.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Areyoukiddingme]

Gay Characters? No problem. Female? Oh fer crissakes, we've had dem fereva. People freakin' love Wonder Woman, and even Catwoman. But here's da thing. You don't grow yer audience by telling most of them Fuck you! Oh shit - don't tell mom I swore okay? You keep your core audience, and you introduce New Characters!

That's a much better reason to create new characters than the usual, which seemed to mostly involve weed (lots of weed) and the question, "What if there was a guy who...?" There were so many mutants in the X-Men universe, many with wildly stupid abilities, that Marvel finally threw in the towel and nuked them all in the House of M event.

Lack of characters has never been a problem comics suffered from. Lack of characters written worth a damn, now those are lacking.

Re: soy boy central

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted, I've seen this cycle no less than four times in my life (comics are a dead field! comics are back! comics are a dead field!), yes, I suspect you are right, all of the milennial, politically correct shenanigans are likely responsible for the current downslide. Old fans got fed up, and everyone else is doing other stuff with their time. Things haven't been so drastically distorted in the films and other media for the most part. When/if they do, expect a similar downslide.

Lol "Kunedog" the retarded nazi faggot, honest?

[Anonymous Coward]

This faggot sucks Vladimir Putin's cock harder than Donald Trump but he thinks he can call anyone else dishonest or attention-seeking, lol? What a faggot you are "Kundog" lol

Re:Lol "Kunedog" the retarded nazi faggot, honest?

[Anonymous Coward]

SJWs are homophobic? Who knew. I guess they hate trans people too. Sad.

Re:Lol "Kunedog" the retarded nazi faggot, honest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kundog is trans? No wonder he's a nutless little bitch.

Pay attention to your customers...

[Anonymous Coward]

And your customers are not SJW's. The SJW cancer is what has destroyed comic book profitability. Great way to completely alienate your actual customers, and pander to a very vocal minority that won't ever buy comics. One day business schools will study these kind of industry mistakes like we study what happened to the railroads today.
  Railroads:When they were responsible for nearly 100% of long distance shipments, how could they deliberately ignore the last few miles to their customers and lose the industry?
  Comics:How could they deliberately alienate 98% of their customer base?

Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop killing of the characters that everyone already knows and loves and replacing them with other races and genders, or randomly making them gay even though it is very clear in past comics that they were not.
If you want more diverse comics, make up some fucking new characters and write good stories and get them well known.
Just because you call some chick thor, or some chick iron man, or some chick hulk, or some dude spider man (okay, this one is the most believable), or some chick wolverine, doesn't mean you readers will believe it.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

Just because you call some chick thor, or some chick iron man, or some chick hulk...

Hey! Don't go dragging Miss Walters into this, at least the Byrne and earlier era She Hulks, or me SMASH puny Human. :)

Re:Heres an idea

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah, She-Hulk dates back to the late 70s, and was an attempt to make a new and interesting character based on the Hulk, not some SJW nonsense.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

And she did 4th wall long before Deadpool. :D

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

I figured she was likely an attempt to get more girls reading super hero comics. Probably multiple reasons though. Doesn't have to be just one or the other.

Re:Heres an idea

[dirk]

It's funny, no one had an issue when a white guy replaced a white guy. When Bucky became Cap, no one was screaming. But when Sam Wilson does (the guy who actually makes the most sense) suddenly it is because of diversity. When white guy after white guy became Batman, no one complained. When white guy after white guy became the Flash, no one cared. When another white guy became Ant Man, no one cared. When Venom went from white guy to white guy, no one cared. But the minute it is someone other than another white guy, then suddenly it is only about diversity and it is a tragedy of epic proportions.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

It's funny, no one had an issue when a white guy replaced a white guy. When Bucky became Cap, no one was screaming. But when Sam Wilson does (the guy who actually makes the most sense) suddenly it is because of diversity. When white guy after white guy became Batman, no one complained. When white guy after white guy became the Flash, no one cared. When another white guy became Ant Man, no one cared. When Venom went from white guy to white guy, no one cared. But the minute it is someone other than another white guy, then suddenly it is only about diversity and it is a tragedy of epic proportions.

Seriously dude - You are as racist as the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan He hates black people and you hate white people.

Oh I forgot, you are a card carrying sexist bigot as well. You are the one who is fixated on race and color. That is the prime indicator of bigotry. Can't we mod this bigot to minus 1 already?

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny, no one had an issue when a white guy replaced a white guy. When Bucky became Cap, no one was screaming. But when Sam Wilson does (the guy who actually makes the most sense) suddenly it is because of diversity. When white guy after white guy became Batman, no one complained. When white guy after white guy became the Flash, no one cared. When another white guy became Ant Man, no one cared. When Venom went from white guy to white guy, no one cared. But the minute it is someone other than another white guy, then suddenly it is only about diversity and it is a tragedy of epic proportions.

Seriously dude - You are as racist as the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan He hates black people and you hate white people.

Oh I forgot, you are a card carrying sexist bigot as well. You are the one who is fixated on race and color. That is the prime indicator of bigotry. Can't we mod this bigot to minus 1 already?

Great takedown! I hate when imbecilic morons just shit post "I know you are but what am I" and don't support their arguments. I love how you instead logically supported your argument by citing specific examples from his post and then refuted them. Well, I mean I assume you will do that in your follow up reply. Otherwise it's just "wah wah wah it turns out I'm the snowflake! time for but whataboutism!"

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Superman, Batman & Sgt Rock did it before her. Big deal. Breaking 4th is ages old.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

The difference is that it became a regular schtick with her.

Re:Heres an idea

[serviscope_minor]

Wow you don't actually understand what any of those words mean do you?

Re: Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

No? No follow up? Busy shit posting other threads with the same empty arguments?

Well hell, maybe when the "white guys who think all their problems are because they are white and therefore it must be blacks or women's fault" meeting is over you can check in again.

I'm white and I don't hate white people, I just hate assholes.

Sorry you got drunk and raped by that tranny though. Who would have thunk that tranny would rape you three times in a row. Especially after the second time when you said you would never stay at "her" place again after the ass reaming "she" gave you... Really sorry that happened to you Olly the bowlegged Olsfun.

Re:Heres an idea

[Opportunist]

Because the story was not about a white guy replacing a white guy. It was still superhero goes to save the day against evildoer in funny costume.

The problem isn't that the superhero is now a black lesbian woman, the problem is that the story revolves around her being a black lesbian woman.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

She Hulk was a riff on the "Ms. Male Character" trope that was common in comics around then. The most obvious examples are characters like Supergirl and Batgirl. For some reason Marvel has less of them.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

I think this could be the first time I've ever seen a genuine "SJW" in the wild. Someone who makes spurious accusations of racism and bigotry and is easily offended.

Unless... You are not being serious. I can't tell. May be a skilful troll.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

I think this could be the first time I've ever seen a genuine "SJW" in the wild. Someone who makes spurious accusations of racism and bigotry and is easily offended.

Unless... You are not being serious. I can't tell. May be a skilful troll.

90 percent troll. But when you want to tell if a person is racist - review their comments and replace white with black, and men with women and review. If the new statement is racist or sexist - the original one is too. That isn't spurious unless you support racism and sexism against white males - and just don't recognize it.

And I'm actually pretty hard to offend - but I don't at all mind offending others - especially if the purposeful offending statement carries the truth. Otherwise, I am happy to sit and watch the far left and far right accuse each other of whatever offends them at the moment, not understanding that they are looking in a mirror, and mereely seeing their own reflections.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

Don't you think that there might be some historic context though?

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

Don't you think that there might be some historic context though?

Hell yeah. There has been some real atrocities performed by white people. The USA has an ongoing racial problem. The Germans in World War 2 and the events leading up to it were terribly racist. Europe has gone through some horrible ethnic cleansing efforts even since then.

But the problem isn't "white people" or "white men". Ask a Korean about how they feel about the Japanese. Ask the Armenians about the Turks. Ask the Tutsi about the Hutus. There might be a local genocide in the offing in Africa as the South African national Assembly has voted by a huge margin to allow confistcation of white owned property https://www.thetribunepapers.c... . Shades of 1930's Germany.

So here is where we find ourselves. In the USA, white people are going to find themsleves in a minority in the not too distant future.

And as the far left is allowing itself to delude itself that white males are the problem, and that somehow racism in the pursuit of eliminating racism will somehow work. perhaps we'll be dealing with that sort of thing in the future.

It's just a case of becoming what you hate. For your reading pleasure, these people care about the end results of racism, be it left or right http://www.genocidewatch.org/

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

What is mean it's, can you really just swap the words white and black to determine if something is racist, or are there things that are dependent on historic actions?

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the story was not about a white guy replacing a white guy. It was still superhero goes to save the day against evildoer in funny costume.

Exactly. I thought Falcon Cap made sense (ish). He shouldn't have had as easy a time tossing the shield. Patriot-Cap would have made more sense since he's actually a super soldier related to the first Captain America. But the worst thing about Falcon Cap was that the story was about how racist America was because everyone in Marvel Earth 616 seemed to hate Sam Wilson being Captain America. I mean, one of the titles of the trades is "Not My Captain America". Anyone in the book who wasn't social justice warriory was racist. Not a way to treat your fans (who usually aren't SJWs); essentially saying "you're all racist if you don't like this book about how racist people who don't like this book are" It had good art, unlike some of the X-Men titles.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

What is mean it's, can you really just swap the words white and black to determine if something is racist, or are there things that are dependent on historic actions?

It of course is dependent on circumstances. But if a derogatory remark about any race or sex is made, it is racist. or sexist or both.

It seems odd to me that you would single out "white" people as being exempt from racism and racial slurs. Am I so naive to think that if a person professes to be non-racist that they would not pre-judge people by the color of their skin or the accident of birth that determines their gender?

Or am I cynical enough to believe that these people are simply just as racist as the people they hate, and simply believe that they are right, so the ends and any end at all - justifies their hatred, and lying about to others, and worse, themselves, is a perfectly acceptable thing to do because their cause is just. Then again, I sometimes have trouble understanding the far left and far right. They have different targets for their hatred, but their minds appear to have the same need to hate other humans that they never met. Because they think they know all about them. Probably based on fear of "the other".

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

It seems odd to me that you would single out "white" people as being exempt from racism and racial slurs.

It seems odd to me that you would get that impression from what I wrote. It's very difficult to have a discussion when the other person takes what you say in the worst possible light rather than trying to understand your position and assuming good faith.

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

When Wally replaced Barry as Flash it was done tastefully and he had already been an established hero with his own identity. When they replaced Captain America with with the Patriot John something everyone had an issue with it as he wasn't Cap material not because he was white it was because the story wasn't good. When they Made Cap a Hydra agent everyone had an issue with it for the same reason it wasn't Cap.
Rhodey as Iron Man was a great story arc it should the lenghts Rhodey would go through to help his friend. It didn't matter what his race was he was a man who stepped up to fill a role and lend a hand.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

It seems odd to me that you would get that impression from what I wrote. It's very difficult to have a discussion when the other person takes what you say in the worst possible light rather than trying to understand your position and assuming good faith.

I do understand that some people would find that odd. Perhaps I can illustrate

Saying that many white people in America have had a problem with Racism is not a racist statement.

Saying White Americans are racist surely is. Saying that white supremacists are racist is not racist - it's in their descriptive name

Saying that women are sexist is surely sexist and prejudicial.

Saying that many third wave feminists are racist and sexist has plenty of evidence to show that to be the truth. I've done enough research to see that.

People with light pigmentation can be racist. People with dark pigmentation can be racist. Males can be sexist. Females can be sexist.

As an American, I have much of the baggage of our highly racist past. So I double parse my statements to try to make certain I don't say something stupid.

As a person who believes in the equality of the sexes with equitable opportunity, I have been left behind by the female supremacist racist and sexist attitude of third wave feminism. Yet this is not a blanket condemnation. I can make the decision on whether a woman is racist or sexist after interacting with her a while.

So I try to be color blind, and I try to be gender blind. The reason I go on about third wave feminism is merely warning people that where they end up might not be where they think they are going.

And finally, who is likely to be right - a person who weighs everything or the person who is so completely certain of their ideology that no criticism is allowed.

Because that no criticism allowed dogma is how ideologues can believe that they can make clearly racist and sexist commentary that through the magic of ideology, are not racist or sexist. Its the difference between wanting to fix the problem and wanting to just win.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

Saying that many third wave feminists are racist and sexist has plenty of evidence to show that to be the truth. I've done enough research to see that.

Yeah, see that's problematic. You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments.

Worse, after all the complaining about "SJWs" calling everyone racist and sexist... Well, you are pretty loose with those terms too.

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, see that's problematic. You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments.

I like how you just complained that "the other person takes what you say in the worst possible light rather than trying to understand your position and assuming good faith.", but what you did just there is exact that. Instead of assuming he said it in good faith, you interpret what he did as being "problematic" (what does that even mean? It's more vague than him using "SJW") and "poisoning the well". You basically skipped all of his attempts to explain himself so you can have a better understanding, and went right into attack mode.

The only one making debate difficult here is you, AmiMojo.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

Saying that many third wave feminists are racist and sexist has plenty of evidence to show that to be the truth. I've done enough research to see that.

Yeah, see that's problematic. You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments.

Yeah see, you make some prejudicial statements about me.

I've worked in a University environment for over 30 years. That puts me in the direct line of third wave feminists. And in that environment when the lady talks - you listen. There is no such thing as debate. I wanted to keep my career.

Worse, after all the complaining about "SJWs" calling everyone racist and sexist... Well, you are pretty loose with those terms too.

You see - you use the same tactics. While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist, you will not allow another person to point out that the very statement is sexist and rscist.

You prove my point excellently - I am not supposed to debate. I am supposed to nod my head and accept it. And any other opinion is verboten.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

And if that wasn't bad enough, we were also inundated with the lad, lass, dog, and "other" versions as well (Batmite for example as an other).

Or do we not speak of Batmite?

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist

No, I absolutely reject that. That's my point, I would never say anything like that, and I don't know why you think I would.

I'm being serious, when you say "you make some prejudicial statements about me" I have no idea to what you are referring. You quoted some text... But it's just me talking about trying to avoid things that screw up debate.

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist

No, I absolutely reject that. That's my point, I would never say anything like that, and I don't know why you think I would.

This here is a very typical meme in AmiMojo posts: controlling the conversation. This is a tactic covered in the alt-right playbook (no youtube here, google it)

Notice that Olsoc's accusation is that AmiMojo would accept someone on his side speaking about racism and sexism. The verb or action is "accept".

But look how AmiMojo responds: he wouldn't "say anything like that".

See the difference? AmiMojo was responding as if the accusation was that he would say something, when that was never the accusation. He's changing the subject, to make it appear - as the alt-right playbook says - that he's in control of the conversation.

The irony here is that such tactics is what screws up debate, the thing AmiMojo claims to want to avoid.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist

No, I absolutely reject that. That's my point, I would never say anything like that, and I don't know why you think I would.

Let's back up a moment. You wrote:

"You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments."

Does that sound like some fellow who has spent over 30 years dealing with third wavers? I even worked enthusiastically with trying to get young women involved with STEM, mainly the science and engineering end.

And I'll repeat, there is no debating the topic. Disagreeing with a third waver is dangerous for a male. The best you can do is being called a sexist. The worst you can do is they march off to human resources, and demand they "do something about that misogynist."

You quoted some text... But it's just me talking about trying to avoid things that screw up debate.

Yeah, and for the umpteenth time, there is No debate. When the slightest disagreement gets you declared as a misogynist and you know you are playing havoc with your career, you tend to practice avoidance rather than debate.

I'm not certain if you have spent much time in an academic environment. At one point this was a place to be exposed to different viewpoints. Controversial speakers did the circuits and you got to hear and speak with them. It was fun. Getting to ask Anne Coulter questions or get entertained with Bill Maher's caustic and politically incorrect humor was a blast. It was interesting to hear from Gloria Steinham. I could never quite get behind her stated belief that "A woman needs a man like a Fish needs a bicycle".

Today, Jerry freaking Seinfeld is too controversial for college campuses. Have an opinion that is not in lockstep with the third wavers, and you will be banned from speaking. And if not banned, you'll have protesters outside trying to deny access to your talk.

The situation has improved ever so slightly, as college administrators have finally figured out that the agents of outrage do not stop. Today Anne Coulter and Bill Maher, next Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock. Tomorrow?

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

Does that sound like some fellow who has spent over 30 years dealing with third wavers?

Well, yeah, it does... Your arguments seem to focus on them as a group rather than on specific arguments that are considered part of the third wave movement.

Look at it from my point of view, as someone trying to debate with you. You say "third wave feminists did/think/said X". Okay, what am I supposed to do with that? I can only defend my own position or discuss the ideas of third wave feminism in general. I can't defend or even really speculate about the motives of individuals I don't know and have not met, and with respect about whom I only have your side of the story.

If you want to discuss something like intersectionality or transmisogyny then that's fine, or if you want to identify a specific organization that has some published material (web site, manifesto etc.) so I can at least evaluate them myself then please do. But general complaints about "third wave feminists have been calling me a racist/sexist for 30 years" isn't really an argument... It's a complaint at best.

When the slightest disagreement gets you declared as a misogynist and you know you are playing havoc with your career, you tend to practice avoidance rather than debate.

So are you retired, or is Ol Olsoc a pseudonym, or do third wave feminists just not read Slashdot?

Re:Heres an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Your arguments seem to focus on them as a group rather than on specific arguments that are considered part of the third wave movement.

Ah yes another AmiMojo meme: he accuses others of the things he himself does in spades

Here, he accuses the other guy of not focusing on specifics, but his accusations itself lacks any specifics.

Notice his use of the word "seems". Seems is a weasel word. It's a tiny word you can slide in to turn an objective statement that could be argued or verified into a subjective one, such that the speaker needs not to actually back up his statement with arguments or specifics

As such, making these accusations is not an argument, nor is it debating. It's just throwing your opinion out there. This is another instance of AmiMojo being the very thing he complains about: he claims to want debate, but what he did here is just rhyme off his (mostly negative) opinions, which detracts from any debate.

I can probably pick out more specific examples in his relatively short post, but let's skip to the end

So are you retired, or is Ol Olsoc a pseudonym, or do third wave feminists just not read Slashdot?

Ask yourself: how does this snarky remark conductive of creating debate, the thing AmiMojo claims to want?

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

Does that sound like some fellow who has spent over 30 years dealing with third wavers?

Well, yeah, it does... Your arguments seem to focus on them as a group rather than on specific arguments that are considered part of the third wave movement.

Look at it from my point of view, as someone trying to debate with you. You say "third wave feminists did/think/said X". Okay, what am I supposed to do with that?

You can agree, or disagree. One of the first issues that you might ask is why do I dislike third wave feminists. Because then we can go into more reasons.

Certainly their ease with castigating white males is not even my major issue with them.

My major issue is that they espouse the idea of the weak woman - so weak that Victorian women would call them sissies.

These are women for whom winking at them is sexual harassment and damages them. Just as an example. THat is remarkably weak.

The thing I find interesting is a I married an actual strong woman, who would go toe to toe with men, and who wouldn't put up with any BS. But it was actual BS, not winking. Her paycheck and mine were similar - She was actually paid more than the business owner.

Because she was worth that to the business. The men she supervised listened to her without question. And she never pulled the woman card.

So yeah, I'm all about equality. But kowtowing to weakness such as third wavers demand must be served is a sure fire path to failure.

There is a difference between equality and equity.

I can only defend my own position or discuss the ideas of third wave feminism in general.

Well then defend. I'm kind of wishing you would. Let's start - should the statutes of limitation and due process be waived, and a man lose his livelihood if he does anything that a woman defines as sexual harassment, including things like winking at her, asking her out on a date?

Should all employees be paid the same based on sex? Should pay based on output be eliminated? Shoulds women get preferential hiring?

Lotta good stuff to debate.

I can't defend or even really speculate about the motives of individuals I don't know and have not met, and with respect about whom I only have your side of the story.

If you want to discuss something like intersectionality or transmisogyny then that's fine, or if you want to identify a specific organization that has some published material (web site, manifesto etc.) so I can at least evaluate them myself then please do.

I recall times posting many links for you. I also recall you telling me you were too busy to look at them.

But general complaints about "third wave feminists have been calling me a racist/sexist for 30 years" isn't really an argument... It's a complaint at best.

Actually, I have had very little problem with being called misogynist by third wavers. There is a lot you can tell about people by simply watching and listening. If somoeone comes in with fire in their eyes, I only need to hear them speak for a while. I was raised by the fire in the eyes crowd. In person, I know when to keep my mouth shut when dealing with people who can harm me if I open it. So left and right wing, when in person, they know me as the quiet guy.

When the slightest disagreement gets you declared as a misogynist and you know you are playing havoc with your career, you tend to practice avoidance rather than debate.

So are you retired, or is Ol Olsoc a pseudonym, or do third wave feminists just not read Slashdot?

I'm retired. My colleagues tell me the situation hasn't improved. But as noted before, I did not debate with them - I only watched what happened to any man who was stupid enough to debate them.

3 Top Reasons

[Scarletdown]

1: They keep pissing off their established fan bases with needless changes, reboots, and retcons to appease the Butthurt Brigade.

2: Comics are just too freakin' expensive per issue for the amount and quality of content you get.

3: The barrier to entry is so low now that previously ignored but still decent talent can punch their own meal ticket. Unfortunately, that allows for a lot more total and utter shit to flood the pool. But that is less important than the ability to go it your own.

Re:3 Top Reasons

[SolemnLord]

1: They keep pissing off their established fan bases with needless changes, reboots, and retcons to appease the Butthurt Brigade.

Continuity is a mess at the best of times, crossovers universally suck, and having to understand a byzantine layer of backstory doesn't draw in new readers. Ignoring that constant growing readership (which is what the big two's shareholders are undoubtedly demanding) is a fool's game, established fanbases die. Either literally or they drift off. New readers are a necessity to keep comics alive, never mind thriving. The movies and TV shows are immensely popular, but not turning into monthly readers despite people loving the characters.

Endless crises on infinite earths are eyerolling and infuriating, I totally agree. Trying to manage literally decades of continuity is also untenable. Long-term serialization is both awesome and slowly rotting away comics' strongest characters. I doubt there's a good solution available at all.

2: Comics are just too freakin' expensive per issue for the amount and quality of content you get.

Agreed. Personally I think getting rid of Diamond would help. Not directly or immediately, but ditching that fucking cancerous system would help out retailers and make publishers more immediately responsible to their customers which in turn would, at least, bring back realistic capitalist supply-and-demand. That's just a pet wish of mine, though.

3: The barrier to entry is so low now that previously ignored but still decent talent can punch their own meal ticket. Unfortunately, that allows for a lot more total and utter shit to flood the pool. But that is less important than the ability to go it your own.

Is this a strike against it? You honestly seem to be arguing both ways here. Lower barrier to entry means more opportunities for new blood. Yeah, there'll be dreck, but let's not pretend that lots of established players aren't shit or that there's no absolutely exquisite new talent on the scene. New writers and artists mean new stories and new readers. All that matters then is getting the best stories into everybody's hands.

Re:3 Top Reasons

[Scarletdown]

That third one was in favor of the lower barrier to entry, with the caveat that it has the drawback of generating a bigger cesspool to sift through. But that freedom to go it your own more than makes up for it.

In other words, "You take the good; you take the bad; you take them both...etc." :)

Re:3 Top Reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

Trying to manage literally decades of continuity is also untenable. Long-term serialization is both awesome and slowly rotting away comics' strongest characters. I doubt there's a good solution available at all.

There is a good and simple solution that all other artwork uses: **Let the characters die**. Let the (Comic) Universe evolve. Then, bring in new characters if you want. Moore had the right idea in his Twilight of the Superheroes proposal, and its unfortunate DC did not listen.

Re:3 Top Reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Personally I think getting rid of Diamond would help.

Diamond is not the source of the industry's problems, it's a symptom. Getting rid of Diamond is an easy way to kill every comic publisher not in the top 20 in an instant, and every retailer that isn't already 80%+ trades, manga, and collectibles.

Diamond is a monopoly because no other print distributor wants to enter the business of selling comics, and no one wants to do that because comics are non-returnable periodicals. Comic publishers don't want the risk of returns, so they refuse to work with returnable newsstand distributors. Retailers are greedy for the higher discounts offered under non-returnable terms, but pass on the risk to consumers by not ordering much stock above pre-orders. This means that consumers are their own stock managers, responsible for ordering product months in advance. No other mainstream media business works likes this. It is inherently unfriendly to new readers.

Diamond just does what any other distributor does, which is to consolidate billing, shipping and other logistics, and take a 15% cut of the cover price. If you want real improvement, the publishers need to move away from periodicals, and retailers need to forget about 55% discounts.

What happened to Female Thor and Girlverine sales?

[sandbagger]

Out of idle curiosity?

The natural cycle

[Stomper_Stoddard]

I think this is just the natural cycle of the comics industry. What we are seeing is the end of the Bronze Age. The older generation of readers are dying off or moving on, all the mainstay writers and artists started in the 80's and 90's and they were new and interesting in the 80's and 90's, now they are old and stale. Just look at the state of comics in the mid 50's just prior to the Silver Age and then again in the mid 70's just prior to the Bronze Age. Comics in those time periods were lackluster and uninteresting written by people who had been writing the same stories with the same characters for a couple of decades and the readers who liked those stories were dying off or moving on.

What is needed and what will eventually happen is the old writers and artists will price themselves out of the market, retire or die and a new generation of writers and artists will emerge who want to tell new and interesting stories, creating new characters or doing fresh takes on old characters. Most importantly, these new people will know how to speak to the new generation of readers who will also emerge.

It's not really a movement

[rsilvergun]

it's a small group of women running out of community colleges. It's blown out of proportion by right wing media out to make a boogie man (boogie woman?) to distract you from economic issues like wages declining as productivity raises.

Even in as much as there's anyone seriously advocating for diversity they're doing it purely for economic reasons, usually either to reach new audiences for media they're selling or trying to bring in more workers to their businesses to drive down wages (re: silicon valley).

Always, always, always follow the money.

Re:It's not really a movement

[Anonymous Coward]

it's a small group of women running out of community colleges.

Absolutely not. I teach college students, and I tell you that it's completely mainstream at the universities right now.

Re:It's not really a movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Kathleen Kennedy. Ever heard of her? A one of the richest women in the world, she is the publisher of most of the movies that you have seen and want to see. And a champion of the SJW cause.

I am too lazy to look up who owns the Disney company, or the various comic book publishers, that keep ruining movies by shoving this political agenda down our throats. But they are certainly more rich, powerful, connected, and influential than "a small group of women running out of community colleges."

Re:It's not really a movement

[Ol Olsoc]

it's a small group of women running out of community colleges. It's blown out of proportion by right wing media out to make a boogie man (boogie woman?) to distract you from economic issues like wages declining as productivity raises.

My career was at one of the biggest Universities in the US, and while blown out of proportion to some extent, it isn't as much as you might think.

The females who stayed could look forward to what we called the yearly promotion plan, and the rule was that anything that any woman considered sexual harassment was officially sexual harassment.

Universities are run by their football departments and Gender studies departments. The Football because it brings in money, and the Gender studies department because they never stop complaining. We're already heading toward 70 percent female 30 percent male, and it still isn't enough.

Re:It's not really a movement

[serviscope_minor]

Universities are run by their football departments and Gender studies departments.

Universities being run by the small department with no money! That's one of the most charming things I've heard on slashdot today.

For me, price

[Bigbutt]

Long ago. My ex and I bought loads of comics back in the 70’s when we first got married. Hitting 7/11 mostly I think. I still have them, some 9 long boxes of them. But as the 80’s rolled in, comics were getting to be too costly so we basically walked away. My local game store tried carrying them recently and stopped after 6 months or so, not because they weren’t selling but because the distributor wanted him to buy a lot more than his clientele were actually buying. Personally the comics were still pricier than I wanted to pay even though I certainly could afford it now. But I can get a complete story in a book for the price of a few comics and since comics are serialized, with a book I don’t miss some part of the story like I did in the 70’s.

[John]

Re:For me, price

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah, I quit collecting comics (mostly Marvel) around 1992. They were too expensive for the value you got, and there were too many forced, artificial ways of driving sales without adding value (crossover stories that went on for dozens of issues, but went nowhere). When you're selling a product designed for kiddies and a professional thinks they're too expensive, you're doing something wrong.

I miss comics, but everything I've seen and read about the industry since then makes me glad I quit.

More bare tits and full frontal pussy

[Anonymous Coward]

Bare tits and bare pussy are always welcome, whatever the venue. Superman has Bizarro World, why not Butt Nakes World. Instead of fingerprint scanners, women would have to press their bare pussy against bare glass to be "scanned" for veracity.. Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.

3 Top downloads.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's show our appreciation for number three and reward them by pirating everything till they go bankrupt and give up.

Ask your fans

[AHuxley]

The people who actually buy your product.
Find out what they want and give them the plots and mythology, timeline, universe the customers want.

Streaming?

[cascadingstylesheet]

Comic Book Publishers, Faced With Flagging Sales, Look To Streaming

So, like still images on Netflix or something?

Or the frames will be album covers on Spotify?

Methinks something unusual is being meant by "streaming", "comic books", or both here ..

How to do a comic

[AHuxley]

1. Study who is still buying comics and why.
2. Create existing comic plots for them using the plots and characters they will pay for.
3. Look who could be sold a comic with new plots.
4. Create vampire, pirate (ship and treasure), billionaire, medicine comics for readers who want a different, modern plot style.

That keeps existing plots. Decades of readers who buy comics enjoy a happy ending in the fictional universe they enjoy.
Readers can find a new comic style with varied modern plots with their own fictional universe, timeline and continuity.

Re:How to do a comic

[Aighearach]

What if they don't know how to write new plots, and when they hire professional writers to write plots, they hate them really bad and don't want to publish it?

It almost seems as if most of them need to go out of business for a few years, so that it can re-grow as a green field that lets in ideas with a market.

Re:How to do a comic

[AHuxley]

That should have the creative skills to do both. Create new content and keep their exisiting content to a great standard.
Why the need to totally change what was selling and not invest in totally new content?

It's quite simple...

[William Baric]

Get Woke, Go Broke.

For me, independents

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I purchased primarily from the independents. Better stories, even if the quality was hit and miss.

I'm sorry to put out ...

[Qbertino]

... a bit of an anti-US rant but could you guys across the pond FINALLY PLEASE stop equating your frigging super-hero-comic-trash for "comics in general"? It is very annoying and it doesn't help that your keep repeating it.

Franco Belgian / European comics - and Japanese / Asian comics - are doing excellent and the market for high quality grown up stuff is ever growing with small publishers popping up left, right and center all the time. I have to actively limit my time at the comic store these days lest I leave all my income there. In the last 3 decades the quality of available material has grown way beyond anything available in the US at measurable scale and it's safe to conclude that anyone living in the US probably has a very very limited view of what comics and grafic novels are and can be. ... So once again:
Super hero comics are not comics in general. They are a very small fraction of comic genres in general and the quality of the material and the ever repetitive shite pulp publishers like Marvel and DC put out is bound to lead people getting fed up. This is no big surprise to anyone with a non-US perspective on comics. That US superhero trash doesn't sell anymore is actually a healthy reaction.

Re:I'm sorry to put out ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Super hero comics are not comics in general. They are a very small fraction of comic genres in general and the quality of the material and the ever repetitive shite pulp publishers like Marvel and DC put out is bound to lead people getting fed up. This is no big surprise to anyone with a non-US perspective on comics. That US superhero trash doesn't sell anymore is actually a healthy reaction.

Except in the US, where they basically are the comic market. And that's the problem.

And people are sick of them because - guess what, I don't want to have to read up on 80 years of backstory to know WTF is happening in a comic! Yet that's where we are with DC and Marvel Comics. It even happens in the damned movies - you'll see some background character, but it turns out that they're a comic book character, and if you aren't aware of that, you're missing out on a ton of their backstory and how they fit into the plot, even though it's conceptually its own continuity! It's infuriating!

The other annoying this is that for whatever dumbass reason US publishers seem utterly convinced they have to tie every single one of their comic story lines into a single universe. This now also ties into the movies, so to understand why things are happening, you have to watch something like 20 different movies. Or just nod and smile and assume the weird things happening make sense.

But you're right - I do buy comics, just not US super hero comics, and not from US comic book stores. Instead, I go online. Because I have to. Because that's where you can buy comics that are a self-contained story, and are not part of the eighth reboot of some shared universe full out thousands of characters where you have to have Wikipedia open to know what the hell is going on.

Re:I'm sorry to put out ...

[Anonymous Coward]

don't worry... the SJW thought police will come after Japanese and European comics soon.

Minor nitpick

[Synonymous Homonym]

I just want to say that "The Avengers" are John Steed and Emma Peel. ("The New Avengers" John Steed and Tara King.)

Marvel's superhero team is just "Avengers", without the definite article.

Re:Minor nitpick

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that most all the comic book covers read "The Avengers". Ditto the DVD cases.

assholes running stores

[Anonymous Coward]

How about getting rid of the assholes running comic book stores who make the fat comic book guy from The Simpsons look welcoming?

Burn baby burn.

Two thoughts

[Sqreater]

Hyper-liberals have taken over comics as a propaganda outlet and continue pounding their message unrelentingly at people who just want good simple stories of right and wrong/good versus evil. As with everything, they have "adult-ized" that which was never meant for adults. They've stolen it for profit like they steal everything that they think they can make a buck off. Where can kids be kids anymore? Where is that golden age where one did not have to think about adult things? Where is kids culture now? And two: It is just part of the general complexity collapse in all things. Can anyone actually follow the histories and story lines anymore?

Re: Two thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hyper-liberals have taken over comics as a propaganda outlet and continue pounding their message unrelentingly at people who just want good simple stories of right and wrong/good versus evil

Do not fear, good citizen. The mighty Ultra-Conservative will vanquish the evil Hyper-Liberal and keep the world safe from complexity.

Comic book shops are actually part of the problem

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

I rarely buy comics, but a few months ago a special issue came out that I did actually want to buy. It had 3 variant covers and I wanted them all. So I went to 2 different comics shops in my part of town. Keep in mind that I live in the suburbs of one of the larger metropolitan areas in the USA, so you can imagine how much worse things are if you live in a small town.

The reality is that to protect comic book shops, publishers don't sell individual titles or subscriptions to some comics. Yes, I'm sure that there are exceptions to this, but it was true for the specific comic I wanted, which was by Marvel. So I go to comic book shop number one. They are actually a used book store who sells a few comics on the side. They get only the very biggest sellers, which meant that they never even had a copy of the comic I wanted. So I go to shop number 2, which is a true comic book shop. That is what they sell to stay in business. I talked to the owner. The owner said she thought she got in one or two copies of the comic and they were sold and she won't be getting any more. Since I was already there, I asked her did she get any of the Disney comics that were revived a year or two ago. She said that she carried a few when they first came out but didn't sell them, so she didn't carry them any more. And the publisher of Disney comics in the USA does not do subscriptions and with very few exceptions does not sell individual issues themselves.

At this point, I gave up because it seemed like trying to go to more comic shops was just going to waste more of my time. In the end, I bought all 3 copies of the comic I wanted on Ebay from a seller who apparently had access to a comic book shop that could get all variant covers. I had to pay about double face price plus shipping, but I got them all. I almost forgot to mention that I looked online to see if any of the big online comic book retailers could sell me the comic I wanted with the variant covers. Nobody could sell me anything but the main cover version. Amazon didn't have this comic for sale either except in the main cover variant.

So in the end, I learned that the following insanity is how the comic book publishing business is run today.
1) To protect comic book shops, publishers mostly refuse to sell directly to individuals, forcing you to go to comic books shops.
2) If your local comic book shop sells out of something you want, too bad. They probably can't get more of it.
3) If there's a variant cover and you want it, your local shop may not carry it. And online retailers definitely won't. Apparently publishers only send variant covers to selected comic shops.
4) You may be forced to turn to Ebay to buy something if you can't get it in a shop.
5) Even Amazon can't stop this insanity. They may be able to sell a specific issue to you if you want it, but they don't get variant cover issues to sell.

So am I surprised that this unwillingness to sell comics to people who actually want to buy them has blown up in their faces? No I am not.

Wrong.

[Qbertino]

don't worry... the SJW thought police will come after Japanese and European comics soon.

No they won't. Because unlike marvel/DC pulp Eurocomics are so diverse it will make even the most progressive social issue proponents head spin. In fact, if there is any media genre that is proactively progressive it's Eurocomics and perhaps some modern high quality manga. Female heroes in abundance. And unlike prude USians teen sex, sex in general, naked people, handycapped heroes and other stuff too, without *anybody* doing wee-wee in their panties because of it. ... OMG you have so little of an idea it would blow your mind. Gung Ho has sexual and power abuse as a friggin sideplot!

Re: soy boy central

[Anonymous Coward]

On most platforms we'll be thrown off the roof for calling you a faggot.

Re:Comic book shops are actually part of the probl

[Anonymous Coward]

Comic book stores are crazy fanatical about building a following. To the point where the last one I frequented wouldn't allow you to buy variant covers the week they were released unless you were a regular customer. And of course, the next week they'd have a value price based on ebay selling price and they'd be on the wall for general availability.

SJW is the problem, not sales

[Anonymous Coward]

About 5 years ago, Marvel went full SJW propaganda. They hired a pack of SJW twitter people with no history or skills involving comics who immediately trashed everything they touched. When people started to notice this change, they made it clear that white/heterosexual/males were no longer the target demographic. Instead, trans/gays/females/minorities were going to be the only customers they wanted reading their products. They began to attack the customers and openly declare their critics to be literal neo-Nazis. Republicans and conservatives were purged and blacklisted. They literally drove away most of their customers and continue producing from of the most god awful comics in the history of the industry. We went from Fantastic 4 vs Doctor Doom to racism racism white people are pure evil!!!! If you want to know more, Comics & Diversity has a youtube channel documenting all of this insanity. It's pretty crazy.

Or maybe it was that....

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a thin rehash of a great pair of novel trilogies from the *70s and 80s* ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Han_Solo_Adventures] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Lando_Calrissian]) that would have been much better served being licensed and marketed for theater rather than poorly rewritten.

From what I heard, Glover did an OK job as Lando. I heard the guy who played Han didn't have the sort of charisma or rough mannish charm that Ford had back in the 70s/80s, but at least looked the part. But with tacky gimmicks like L337 the robot or whatever it was called, it was mostly a disappointment that didn't look into the true benefits of the original stories: They were not primarily about Calrissian or Solo: They were primarily about the robots who were their companions through the adventures before eventually leaving to be on their own at the end of the second trilogy. And Bollux/Blue Max were far more interesting and effective characters than L337 was, because they took the human-like acceptable of robots that the original cast managed to make work and made it a lynchpin of the stories. The droids autonomy and capabilities were often as important to their survival as the flesh and blood characters themselves, and through their time together each grew due to their interactions and experiences with the other.

Instead they made it a bad comedy heist movie to soak the fanbase for some cash, instead of trying to make it a serious movie (or movies) with a plot that would draw in both new and returning viewers for years to come. But what do you really expect from Disney, a company who steals from the public commons and then rehashes the plotlines to death while peddling them to children and adults with more money than sense? Not to mention keeping their precious IP under lock and key for more generations than the lifetime of some of the early stories they appropriated to create their empire, all without paying a dime in licensing of course.

Plenty in the US too.

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing superhero comics really have going for them is that DC and Marvel managed to weather the storms of the 50s to 90s and in the process either outlive or gobble up their smaller competition to become the giants they are today. If you actually look at the comic book scene in the US, there were lots of other players over the years but thanks in part to the political attitude about acceptable stories marketing under picture books much of the more high brow material, adult themed material, and dimestore scifi was either directly killed or socially ostracized until it went out of business. It didn't help that many of these publishers only had a few good years of material and then started hemorraging cash as the viewship drifted to other publishers or media as television took over from the written work and then computers took over from television.

What DC/Marvel leveraged was being able to get kids TV shows made about their material, hype it and push themselves a variety of mediums, from newspaper stands to bookstores, to grocery stores to comic book shops, and to transition as new mediums popped up. Things that many other companies were unable due to size or niche interest. The internet has levelled that playing field with far more variety, better media and an often donation/swag based method of repayment to the authors. Good comic or graphic novel series persist for years, while once that are mediocre last only as long as their authors stay passionate about them. If you want some good examples, look at Dominic Deegan or One Punch Guy, or Schlock Mercenary. These started as roughly drawn comics that most people would have scoffed at and not given another thought, and yet each of them managed to obtain polish, craft a mythos surrounding it, and draw in new users until the authors were well known enough to get book deals, tv shows/manga deals (one punch man), or become illustrators for other people's major rpg books (Schlock's creator did illustration work for an RPG collaboration with R.A. Salvatore I believe.) The point being that American comics are doing quite well at the amateur level as well, just most people don't see the forest for the logging encampments (DC/Marvel).

How?!

[iq145]

With the unbelievable amount of money they're making by turning those comic books into movies these days, it should balance out...

Image Comics does another thing right

[Briareos]

While the article mentioned Image Direct where you can subscribe to physical issues of their comics via mail, I'm actually more a fan of the fact that they will also sell DRM-free, high-res PDF, ePub, CBZ and CBR copies of their releases directly via their site, which for me is a much better offer than physical copies - I live in Europe so shipping would be killer, and since my fucking upstairs ex-neighbor managed to flood my home and especially the room I kept my books, comics, DVDs and CDs in twice I've gone almost all-digital for my entertainment.

Also, it helps that Image - while having a few long-running superhero series (Spawn, Savage Dragon, the just ended Invinicible, ...) and some reboots (Cyberforce, Witchblade, Kick-Ass, ...) - also releases a variety of series in all kinds of genres, many also rather short instead of the endless same-y stream coming from Marvel and DC, like:

Blood Stain, Chew, Curse Words, Death Or Glory, Death Vigil, Descender, Postal/Think Tank/The Tithe/Eden's Fall, Elsewhere, The Fix, The Fuse, I Hate Fairyland, Lazarus, Low, Monstress, Paper Girls, Rat Queens, Revival, Royal City, Saga, Scales & Scoundrels, Sex Criminals, Sunstone, Tokyo Ghost, Wayward and The Wicked + The Divine

Re: soy boy central

[Anonymous Coward]

This 100%. Soy boy == faggot.

Re: Lol "Kunedog" the retarded nazi faggot, honest

[Anonymous Coward]

Trans people are fags. Fags are trans, it's all the same disease.

Soooo expensive...

[Smid]

It is what? $3.99 a comic nowadays, for the normal Marvel and DC comics, right?

1/3rd of those pages are adverts, so its usually about 30 odd pages. Their value is also worthless after buying, I think I have maybe fifty comics out of the ten thousand I have worth more than $10 nearly 30 years later, and that's more Sandman 1-10 and Hellblazer 1-10...

Just cut to the chase and publish them in graphic novels. Give away the first comic for free and absorb that into the price of the graphic novels.

High prices reduces demand and is a death spiral. My comic shop sells pop toys to actually make profit, and I expect it to eventually stop selling comics the same way it stopped selling games and dvds ten years ago...

Re:soy boy central

[KingBenny]

when is the set to make it illegal to buy or own dvd's ? i assume that's the next step because that way you could own stuff you buy