Comic Book Publishers, Faced With Flagging Sales, Look To Streaming (nytimes.com)

Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis: Flagging interest from readers and competition from digital entertainment are dragging down sales. Hoping to reverse the trend, publishers are creating their own digital platforms to directly connect with readers and encourage more engagement from fans. From a report: One of the biggest direct-to-consumer efforts is DC Universe, a platform from DC Entertainment and Warner Bros. Digital Studios that will offer streaming content, including original and classic TV series. DC Universe is "a huge opportunity" that offers "ultimate creative control," said Jim Lee, a co-publisher of DC Entertainment. "It allows you to look at wider adaptations of the source material."

[...] The Walt Disney Company, which owns Marvel Entertainment, said last year that it would create a streaming platform that would include Marvel movies like "The Avengers" and "Guardians of the Galaxy." Smaller comic book publishers are testing their own direct-to-consumer platforms. Image Comics, the publisher of popular titles like The Walking Dead and Saga, started a direct-to-consumer platform in 2015 to sell comic book subscriptions and apparel.

Comments

How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrm, seems like they could just stop pumping it full of SJW propaganda and sales would come back

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I should probably buy AltHero and CYBERFROG just to show that a market exists for things that aren't trash.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

I was rather surprised to find out Iron Man is now a black female teenager. I've never read print comics, so I can only guess that it's as stupid as my imagination suggests.

I have no idea why one would pay four bucks per comic book when you can read stuff like 'Kill Six Billion Demons' and 'Digger' for free.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Luckyo]

Unlikely. It's much harder to build an audience than to lose it.

Now that they have the reputation, they're likely fucked for a generation. They'll have to learn to live on the movie profits.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

I think the whole "millions of dollars" thing is a disingenuous attempt to make it look like you're punching up. It's pretty clear you'd feel exactly the same way if he got paid nothing at all.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Bing Tsher E]

I read the whole Sandman series. Bought the issues as they were coming out, from #17 onward. That series wasn't like a lot of the stupid regular comics, though. Most mainstream comics, i.e. the 'Super Hero' ones, are tedious and two dimensional. Why anybody would read more than one or two issues is beyond me.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Calydor]

Iron Man is a black teenage girl? So is the new Buffy.

https://www.polygon.com/tv/201...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

> I was rather surprised to find out Iron Man is now a black female teenager.

That is actually a spinoff, Ironheart. She was inspired by Tony Stark and built her own suit. He basically met her later and said 'your stuff is junk but I like your moxie, kid'. He didn't magically become another person.

No one is forcing anyone to read a comic about a black female. The fact that the comic simply _existing_ is enough to incite such anger says a lot, though.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

Nothing wrong with that; it fits the established canon.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

You sound entirely reasonable, but I disagree with your point on not reading. The fact of the matter is we've seen very self-righteous and pervasive commentaries claiming that not reading/watching IS a sign of bigotry. Remember all the stuff written about choosing to not go see Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Wrinkle in Time, and others.

Preceding that you may recall there was a huge mass of articles released in tandem claiming that it was time to do away with the identity of "gamer." I think there is at least some credence to the idea there is a systemic and concerted attack on a lot of geek culture. It might actually be an interesting thing to investigate. It'd take a strong constitution to deal with the filth that populates both extremes of the debate though.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[samdu]

No, it wasn't a spinoff. Riri Williams, the young black teenage girl in question, literally replaced Tony Stark (whom they "killed" off) for years before they finally brought Stark back. The problems wasn't that they put Riri in the suit. The problem was that Riri was/is a TERRIBLE character. A terrible character that was part of Marvel's purposeful attempt to replace all of the classic characters with "diverse" characters, regardless of whether it made sense, was well written, or anything else that matters in fiction. The only thing that mattered were the characters' surface traits. I remember, back in the day, when Rhodey replaced Tony as Iron Man. It was a well written arc. It made complete sense based on what came before it. And Rhodey was/is a great character that had been built up over time. This had absolutely none of those things. So, while a certain loud group of people have shouted down (or tried) anyone who took issue with the direction Marvel took as being Nazis, fascists, homophobes, sexists, and racists, that characterization is without merit. Are there some of those people peppered in? Certainly. Because there are some of those people peppered into all groups. But there was/is a real, non-discriminatory criticism of Marvel's direction. And yeah, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Which is exactly why so many have stopped doing so. Thus, this article. And the swing and a miss by the industry to try to explain why sales are flagging.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

It's worth noting that New Hampshire residents have the right to remove the Live Free or Die message from their license plates if they sincerely value life more than freedom.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I am fine with being transphobic. It's a perfectly rational fear that one might be tricked into a relationship with one who could never bear children and waste their child rearing years thus wasting their life.

My transphobia isn't like that, I don't believe the point of life is having kids. I'm afraid of trans people because they are mostly lunatics trying to pull a fast one for cash. If they chop their own body up what will they do to others? And they talk like they are mafiaa, always imposing their own ways on others.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

On the one hand, I can't think of anything wrong or stupid about a story involving a black female teenager in a mech suit. Mech suits are cool, no matter who is in them.

With good writers, one could spin compelling stories with any character, regardless of race, etc.

But, on the other hand, the only reason that this specific combination was chosen was to contrast it against the white male original character. And this isn't the only story in which this has happened. There is, in fact, a huge push to replace all the classic characters with women and minorities, not because there is something compelling about this plotwise, but in order to push an obvious agenda of social engineering.

And hell, if the whole agenda is just one of encouraging acceptance and respect, I don't even have a problem with that. But it is being grossly overdone, in an in-your-face and kind of insulting way, and the plots being produced are not compelling. "Oh look at me, I am a woman in a man's role" is just not good enough.

Why is a female Thor better than, say, brand new IP about the goddess Athena? Athena was a strategic badass in greek mythology, no need at all to turn a man into a woman who is just-as-good-or-better.

The answer is obvious. The goal is transparent. The push is to replace characters we have loved with more politically correct equivalents.....not to write badass stories with compelling plots.

And that is precisely why their sales are dropping. But their idealism won't allow them to admit this, not even to themselves, so they put the blame on bullshit.

Some talented startup is going to write some good comics in the next few years, and eat their lunch.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[dirk]

So I think it is fair to say you don't like Riri. I didn't read the series, so I can't say whether she was a good character or not.But I know there are a lot of diverse characters that are incredible that you are ignoring. The fact she was female and black is all you see (and may or may not be the reason she was as the replacement) but that in no way means she has to be a bad character because of that.

Ms. Marvel is arguable a replacement for Captain Marvel (even though she still exists) and is one of the best characters they have currently. Miles Morales is arguable a better Spiderman than Peter Parker. Amadeus Cho become the Hulk and it made perfect sense and was great. Sam Wilson as Captain America made perfect sense and was well done, even if people rejected him. Jane Foster as Thor was an incredibly well done story. Super heros changing is part of the comics and has been for years. There is no reason the replacement has to always be a white, straight male. You seem to think Riri was terrible because she was black and female, but there is no reason they couldn't have told a story to your liking with her having those traits. And there is no reason to think if they had replaced Tony with a white man the story still wouldn't have been terrible. If she was white and male and written the same way, you still wouldn't have like her (at least I hope not), so your issue is with the storytelling and not the character. Blaming the character for being poor written (at least in your eyes) is like blaming a painting because you don't like it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Aighearach]

The comic store near me is thriving, but mostly because of the large adult section.

Less than 25% is in the "Tank Girl-takeoff" style.

But if you're both shopping there at the same time, I totally hope she laughs at you.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

So I think it is fair to say you don't like Riri. I didn't read the series, so I can't say whether she was a good character or not.But I know there are a lot of diverse characters that are incredible that you are ignoring. The fact she was female and black is all you see (and may or may not be the reason she was as the replacement) but that in no way means she has to be a bad character because of that.

Can you point our exactly where she said she was a bad character because of her skin pigmentation or her sex?

There is racism here, there is sexism here - And it just so happens to be you.

There is no reason the replacement has to always be a white, straight male.

Ah, racism and sexism again. Here's the thing - many characters have been changed. Long before you decided that it was important to get rid of those straight white males you rail on about.

What happens when who the character wants to have sex with gets gratuitously thrown into the story, or 21st century American social politics gets thrown into a story about a faraway galaxy a long long time ago.

There can be tremendous movies about social politics. There can be tremendous television shows and movies where gender identity can be explored. Maybe even comic books. Thelma and Louise was a great movie. Steel Magnolias was decent. I don't want to see an all male cast of Thelma and Louise, Steel Magnolias - and I have no idea how to take a femal Frankenfurter in a remake of The Rocky Horror Picture Show! And not many of us want to see an all female Ghostbusters. The sex of the characters had zilch to do with the actual story.

But your argument rationalizes a male Wonder Woman and Cat Woman, and a Female Superman and Male Supergirl. And whatever the social outlook of the people that you are chasing away from comics and sci-fi, you need to be buying the new socially acceptable comic books, and going to the movies and buying all the toys, because if you don't, the next outfit might not be so inclined to bow to your wishes, after they see that your complaints and their response only put another outfit into bankruptcy court.

You've already caused the first Star Wars flop.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

We should demand that a new Wonder Woman movie be made with John Goodman as Wonder Woman.

Okay, let's have some good old fashioned Internet fun. Who's the better Wonder Woman - Gal Gadot or Linda Carter?

My vote is for Linda Carter, who fit the Amazon Woman look better. My wife does too, and she's way too harsh on Gal Gadot. Says that Gadot isn't big enough, and even says Gadot isn't very attractive. I mean she certainly isn't as beautiful as Linda, but she's not that bad.

Anyhow, Linda or Gal? 2 for Linda so far.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

You just hate Jews, my dude.

Gal Gadot is a fucking Goddess... And she killed Muslims while in the IDF. That paired with her tits and ass makes her a one in a billion woman.

I had no idea she was Jewish. That's nice. Anyhow - good internet rage.

Linda Carter 2, Gal Gadot 1

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Not even close asshole. Thanks for being so presumptuous I can call you an asshole and feel justified.

You can put words in my mouth all you want. It is just your own projection. You think only whites can be transphobic. You are a racist. That's why you brought race up, not me.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Luckyo]

Problem being, that you only need a handful of writers for the film, which means most people doing the comics are either going to have to be subsidized, or they will have to be fired.

That's the point I'm making. They will literally have to learn how to live on movie money instead of direct sales income. This will require a paradigm shift within comics companies. Either a lot of people doing comics will have to fired and they have to throw most of the effort at movies instead, or they will have to subsidise comics staff.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

Remember all the stuff written about choosing to not go see Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Wrinkle in Time, and others.

No. I've never even heard "Wrinkle in Time", let alone read any commentary on it. Ghostbusters, I seem to recall got very lukewarm reviews, though I did see it.

I think there is at least some credence to the idea there is a systemic and concerted attack on a lot of geek culture.

Welcome to the big leagues, boyo!

Here's the thing: it's not a systematic attack. Previously geek culture was basically a rather niche things, which means no one outside the niche cared about it, or had any desire to comment on it. Now it's about the most mainstream of mainstream culture.

This means you have the full weight of all of the critics (and others) bearing down on it. And it will continue ot do so just like more or less everything else in the main stream. It is not a systematic attack, it's part of the burden of being popular. Critics tend to exist in the mainstream, subcultures tend to be pretty much critic free.

Not all of the criticism will be fair, not all of it you will agree with. Some of it you might strongly dislike (but kind of know it is true anyway).

But this is life in the mainstream. Deal with it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Kokuyo]

I think I would read the hell out of an Athena comic. That sounds awesome!

Strong women are pretty damn central interest of mine. My favorite works of fiction are Sunstone (comic book) and the Kushiel series (fantasy novels).

That probably won't count for your typical REEEEEEing person of overwhelming opinion (just to avoid the term SJW), as there is sexuality involved in those and since I am an animalistic male, obviously my interests cannot go beyond that.

For the non brain-damaged among us: I'd say it's pretty clear I dig strong female characters. It is one reason I like Captain Janeway, not despite her being an arguably poor Starfleet captain but precisely because. She was depicted to have flaws. She wasn't able to handle each and every situation with Picard's aplomb, because she was thrust into god damned hellish situations with no backup whatsoever.

Contrast that with the old Wonder Woman or Spider-Woman TV series, where these women deus ex machinaed whatever outrageous power they needed o solve an issue. Now don't get me wrong, that is Superman's whole sick, being imbalanced, but I never liked him for that reason either.

Failing is an integral part of making a character grow on you. Having flaws is important. Being a lecherous white dude with too much money and being too full of himself works for Stark because despite all this, he tries to do the right thing.

Replace him with a black female teenager? Sure. I am an avid fanfiction reader, I don't balk at strange turns on established characters but just like fanfiction writers, you got to make the transition. There are only a limited number of fanfics that work despite the premise being "Well, this is different. Accept it and go from there".

The moment I get the feeling the author deems me so dimwitted that they needn't bother with making something fit into canon, I get very, VERY annoyed with said author. And THAT more than anything makes me not want to read and much less buy this crap. You want to push your dogma? Go right ahead. I don't hold it against you. But make sure you pick me up on your journey gently and don't make me hop into a car going twenty miles an hour.

And much less don't expect me to try after calling me names because I balk at the idea...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[djinn6]

Yes, we'll "deal with it". Many of us "geeks" couldn't give one fuck about what other people think of us. Heck, we didn't care when other kids ostracized of us. And if daily harassment didn't stop us from liking what we like, what's a few click-bait opinion articles going to do?

As for gamer culture, it's pretty clear the real gamers have already won. Steam announced that they're no longer going to try to police content and no amount of SJW screeching will put that genie back in the bottle.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

The original idea with Buffy was to subvert the "dumb blond who dies in the first 5 minutes" trope. We have kinda moved past that since the 90s, thanks in part to characters like Buffy. So now the equivalent is the "token black character who dies in the first 5 minutes" trope.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

Remember all the stuff written about choosing to not go see Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Wrinkle in Time, and others.

No, I don't. Can you provide a link?

I can provide some counter points though. Check the IMDB user reviews of Black Panther and Wonder Woman, both great movies and commercially successful. Lots of people with suspiciously similar reviews claiming those movies are racist/sexist respectively.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[squiggleslash]

Never heard of Wrinkle in Time, but yes I was aware of so-called manosphere boycotts of Star Wars (namely Ep 7) and the new Ghostbusters movie.

The SW boycott was laughable both in aim (google "Little white cuck ball" for articles on it) and effectiveness. The Ghostbusters one... the film was genuinely awful, and I suspect the boycott actually had the opposite effect of that intended, as it became impossible to determine if the film was awful from the social media comments on it, so many people went to watch it despite seeing lots of awful reviews of it. While it, at best, broke even, it still managed to rake in hundreds of millions of dollars at the box office, something it really shouldn't have done.

As you say, both BP and WW also had "Wah wah SJWs!" type attacks on them and did spectacularly well.

When people have actually done the analysis, the people obsessed with "SJWs" tends to be a tiny minority on every website. The highest estimates of Gamegate, for example, seem to be around the 10,000-20,000 people range during its peak.

I think most people have no problems with women or black people and recognize that both are marginalized groups. In such a context, being more upset that someone found a joke in an old episode of Family Guy insensitive to one legged lesbian transgender women than blaming Americas problems on Latin Americans fleeing persecution is, thankfully, a minority situation.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

So far the more diverse Star Wars have done well at the box office, it's the one about a white guy that flopped.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Deagol]

You should see what they did with Heathers.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[mchall]

Wow, dirk. You completely missed his point and accused him of bias that's just not there. He said the problem wasn't Riri's identity. The problem was that she was a horribly written character. He pointed to another POC that was well written as a example of how that character had previously been changed in a more plausible manner.

I didn't read the series, so I can't say whether she was a good character or not.

So his point may be valid regarding poor writing, but since you haven't read it you're just going to piss all over it? Go do your homework first and quit shouting "racism" and "sexism" where none exists.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[cascadingstylesheet]

The answer is obvious. The goal is transparent. The push is to replace characters we have loved with more politically correct equivalents.....not to write badass stories with compelling plots.

Precisely.

Analogous in another area: Boy Scouts. Did they build an alternate scouting organization that was compelling enough to thrive? No, they did a basically hostile takeover of the existing one. Because "see, we own it now, ha ha lulz". That's the actual point of it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[squiggleslash]

Yeah, their boycotts of SW have fallen flat. The only one that failed is Solo, and that was despite being the closest movie to "what they want" (to the point there's what might be called an SJW Robot in it, that's played for laughs at the expense of so-called SJWs, and no women have purple hair!); it's almost as if cinema audiences want good films with diverse characters they can relate to, rather than stuff the SJW-obsessed want...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[UnknownSoldier]

You are forgetting Stupid Juvenile Whiners tactics Rule #4.

4. Never take responsibility

Even worse is the SJW comic bookstore owners insulting customers when they ask if they carry a certain line of comics. /Oblg. #GetWokeGoBroke

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[UnknownSoldier]

I wish these these Stupid Juvenile Whiners would stop hijacking OTHER people's characters and go make their own.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[terrycarlino]

My anger is reserved for those who have so little confidence in their own ability to create minority characters with their own interesting back story and character development that they feel the only way minority characters can prosper is to steal the reputation and readership of established white male characters.

Compare:

Black Panther a Marvel character with a long history of his own. His well made movie was a blockbuster.

Wonder Woman a DC character with a long history of her own. Her well made movie was the best of the entire DC releases.

Ghostbusters an attempt to replace well loved male characters with women. A complete failure.

Ocean's 8. Enough said.

Replacement of major Marvel Characters with gender swapping and blackwashing. Sales plummet.

Want to be successful? Create interesting minority characters who have their own story and their own mantel. Or have them steal the mantels of successful white male characters and see them fail as a property.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[UnknownSoldier]

> Ghostbusters, I seem to recall got very lukewarm reviews, though I did see it.

Too bad you already wasted your time with that shit movie.

RedLetterMedia does a fantastic job explaining WHY it was a crap movie WITHOUT even discussing ANY "gender" issues.

* Mr. Plinkett's Ghostbusters (2016) Review and
* Half in the Bag Episode 112: Ghostbusters (2016)

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[terrycarlino]

When you replace an existing white male character with a black woman for no other purpose than getting rid of the white male character that is both sexist and racist.

But I guess that's alight because, you know, white men deserve it.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[AmiMoJo]

Reminds me of that meme with all the near identical brooding white dudes from video games. It's a good point, they are all the same two dimensional angst ridden violence machines, but the moment anyone actually tries to do anything different they get slammed for pandering to diversity and SJWs.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[terrycarlino]

FDR's New Deal extended a normal cyclical economic depression into the Great Depression. It hurt far more people than it helped.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[djinn6]

SJW screeching will put that genie back in the bottle.

Oh so you do care what other people think aof you and say about you. Otherwise you wouldn't be using what you clearly think of as insults.

The term SJW is an insult to you? Ok, but I'm just using the term to describe people who try to force their morals on everyone else. I would use "moralist" instead, but their morals are very different from conservative Christians. I can also say "third-wave feminist", but that's awfully long and it's not entirely clear that all of them are actually feminists.

Your psycho-analysis is completely off mark, as is your ability to quote things properly. What I call them has no bearing on whether I care what they think or not. Pretty sure the KKK still calls black people "n i g g e r s", and they're definitely not trying to get blacks to like them.

Oh and apparently Slashdot's spam filter is just a bunch of regexes. No, using the word "n i g g e r s" is not indicative of spam or troll. There are legitimate cases such as a discussion of culturally important terminology where the use of unsavory words is required to illustrate a point.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

So far the more diverse Star Wars have done well at the box office, it's the one about a white guy that flopped.

Or was it the annoying android?

A lot of Star Wars fans we not pleased with the direction that the movies were taking. And it wasn't merely the social justice aspect. It was that the story lines were getting rather bad, and plot holes, and a few things that made no sense. Taking a new Jedi and turning this new into a Mary Sue character, or Marty Stu if you please just annoys people - In addition, the people involved with producing the movies were pretty dismissive of any criticism. As Kathleen Sullivan noted:

"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, 'Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'"

That's pretty offensive. I've seen a lot of female Star Wars fans - many of them who are pissed at the new direction. But here's the interesting part - while giving lip service to her responsibility to the company she works with, does she not have the responsibility to make that company money? When she gave her giant "Fuck you!" to the fans who put the Star Wars franchise where it was - both male and female fans.

Movies and comics are entertainment, and nothing else. You pick an audience and produce works that you believe will attract them to give you money in return for being entertained. Kennedy and Disney are allowed to Change Star Wars into an intergalactic version of Glee if they so wish. But will the people they have chosen to be their new audience give their money just like the audience they discarded?

There is a vanishingly small but no zero chance that the reason that Solo failed was because it had a white man as the leading character. While that might be the case, you will need to explain how other movies with white male lead characters have excelled and made a lot of money for their producers in the same time period that somehow people decided that Solo needed to fail. Hard to defend the argument. Occam's razor says that since a lot of fans who were upset at being chased away and were vocal about it did exactly what they said they would do.

It all comes down to this. The people that Disney needs to replace the people they abandoned need to step up and pay it forward. Solo, which was apparently a decent movie after Ron Howard took over and recued it from the disaster it was heading to after the people Kennedy used to produce it, was ignored by the abandoned fans, while the new socially conscious fans did not replace them.

The movie is going to lose between 50 and 80 million dollars in the end. Disney will need to decide if they want to lose that much money in order to appease those who demand that matters that happened in a far away galaxy a long time ago must have 21st century social justice issues at the expense of good storytelling or not. One thing is for certain. The old Star Wars movies were pretty certain to generate a lot of money, and Disney and Lucasfilms could demand a lot of money and length of showing from the theaters. I suspect they will need to lessen the demands - a lot.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

My statement that there was some credence to it being a systemic attack. This is derived, as I implied, from the swarm of "Gamer identity is dead" articles posted in concert with each other during gamergate. Makes me suspicious, like I saw a mask being torn. I don't consider it proof, but it's not tinfoil hat territory either. Here is one list.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

Yes I saw it. A great stride for gender equality because it shows that women are every bit as good as men at making mediocre, pointless reboots. And that was the problem really, it had no point.

I didn't hate it, and it had it's moments, but far too few because it basically was stunningly mediocre. Very much a 2* film (there are much much worse films deserving of 1*). Would not watch again.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

No there is no systematic attack, this is simply the result of ongoing public scrutiny.

As for gamers, it turns out that public scrutiny looks down on the kind of shit that Anita Sarkeesian had to endure, especially as critics don't generally like it when people try to silence one of them. I can't imagine why!

As for that link: the forum has no credibility so nothing there can be taken as correct or even likely without full scrutiny. That means I would essential have to do research to validate your point, which is not how it works.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

My advice is to be less self righteous when you are also being lazy.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Ol Olsoc]

When you replace an existing white male character with a black woman for no other purpose than getting rid of the white male character that is both sexist and racist.

But I guess that's alight because, you know, white men deserve it.

Right - when it becomes gratuitous, or even worse taunting.

When it comes to racism and sexism, we all have things to learn. But both far left and far right reject that their position is racist and sexist. That in itself is a big clue.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Areyoukiddingme]

The moment I get the feeling the author deems me so dimwitted that they needn't bother with making something fit into canon, I get very, VERY annoyed with said author. And THAT more than anything makes me not want to read and much less buy this crap. You want to push your dogma? Go right ahead. I don't hold it against you. But make sure you pick me up on your journey gently and don't make me hop into a car going twenty miles an hour.

Canon got tossed into the trash bin of history in the early 1960s when DC created Earth-Two, and it's been downhill ever since. Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, Ultimate Universe, and on and on and on. I don't know which is worse, the ones doing it because they're lazy writers or the ones doing it because they're better writers than the original. I gave up on comics written after the 1960s in large part because continuity became completely irrelevant to all comic book publishers, major and minor. Infinitely malleable fiction is one of the more boring and stupid tropes ever invented.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[serviscope_minor]

My advice is you don't post links to places with no crediblity and act like you have actally made a case.

If you're too lazy to find proper sources then it is not my job to prove your poit for you.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[squiggleslash]

You'll notice that all these articles were written at the end of August. KIA/GG uses that of evidence of a system(at)ic attack. You're apparently agreeing with that analysis, simply on the basis of multiple articles being written at around the same time.

Buuuuut...

How many articles about Radical Islamic extremism were written on 9/12/2001? How many articles about gun control were published on 4/21/1999?

The articles weren't written out the blue. They were written because a conflation of right wing extremism among a vocal portion of the gaming community occurred at around that time. And journalists within the video game industry were reacting to it.

On August 16th, the "Zoe Post" was published. This was a post by the rejected suitor of a video game developer Zoe Quinn which made a number of allegations against her, essentially "slut shaming" her. Under normal circumstances, this would have been lost in the noise, one entitled whackjob bitching about a woman he couldn't have, but he promoted it carefully in a number of forums he felt might be sympathetic, including promoting knowledge that there was some form of relationship between Quinn and a gaming journalist (there was, but the journalist hadn't written about her since, and the Quinn's games are free anyway.)

Certain groups took the bait, and this was blown into a conspiracy, initially called (because this was an attempt to slut shame Quinn) "Five Guys" (and the related #burgersandfries) and The Quinnspiracy. "Internet Aristocrat" uploaded a video entitled "Quinnspiracy: The Five Guys Saga" on August 18th.

So, this was happening, and at the same time as this was happening Anita Sarkeesian, a feminist media critic, was publishing the first videos in her "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" series - and was getting shat on for her work. She'd already been publishing these videos for a year at this point, and was pretty much constantly receiving threats and other harassment since she started. Unlike the Quinn stuff, it wasn't new, but it was increasing and becoming a very noisy part of the background by the time the gaming media noticed that, maybe, perhaps, some gamers aren't very nice people.

Let's go back to Quinn. By August 20th, the media was involved - not because they wanted to promote any viewpoint, but because the dubious link promoted by the author of the Zoepost between Quinn and a journalist had been relayed through the telephone game a few times and had now become "Quinn had sex with journalist in return for positive coverage." As I said earlier, this never happened, the journalist involved had not written about her since months before they had a brief relationship.

So now the media couldn't very well ignore it. They were:

1. Dragged into a bizarre attempt by a whackjob to harass a woman who wouldn't have sex with him.
2. Forced to defend themselves against bogus claims of corruption.
3. Continuing to watch the Sarkeesian saga play out.

And it got worse.

More videos were published. Sarkeesian was forced to leave her home due to death threats. And on August 27th, for some bizarre reason Adam Baldwin, of Firefly fame, decides to fan the flames and promote IA's video, captioning it "Gamergate". The name stuck.

Now, are you entirely surprised, given that was what was happening at the time, there were quite a few articles from journalists who were more than a little pissed off with the gaming community at that time?

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Uberbah]

As you say, both BP and WW also had "Wah wah SJWs!" type attacks on them

No, they didn't. That was just Demagogue Culture scrounging Twitter comments to find a stupid post they could blow out of all proportion and pretend it was some kind of movement. That's the model they used for Force Awakens on a black stormtrooper, as if Star Wars fans haven't been aware of Lando for the last few decades.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Presence Eternal]

You'd be making good points but for the language they chose to use. The thing of it is they had a tag to apply to those they were angry with: GamerGate. However one feels about the events involved, it was an agreed upon name. Not "gamers" but "GamerGate."

A few articles lumped in with the rest were indeed responsible and did use their terms correctly. They don't belong in attempts to pad the lists out. But those responsible articles certainly look to be in the minority. The common trend was articles specifically titled along the lines of "gamers are dead." And plenty of those ran with the idea whole cloth. The message was: It's "gamers" we want dead, not gamergate. It was widespread and despicable.

Was it organic or a conspiracy? I don't think it's crazy to see all these articles released at the same time and imagine writers talking to each other. I don't think it's crazy to see it as a natural trend as you describe. Like I said, it might be worth investigating.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[Luckyo]

You appear to be confusing the indie comics scene with large scale commercial operations.

Re:How about remove SJW crap

[Uberbah]

So far the more diverse Star Wars have done well at the box office, it's the one where they took a character that's been around for almost four decades and made him pansexual because reasons

Or that.

Re: How about remove SJW crap

[drakaan]

That's not a trolling statement. Just an observation that there were plenty of overtly racist statements being made at the time, sheesh.

Price, content

[harvey the nerd]

Prices are a little high, even allowing for inflation.

Content, thin mags where much content is hmmm to ugh.

Re:Price, content

[Jason1729]

I logged in to say just this. In 1961 in the middle of the golden age of comics, a comic cost 10 cents and federal minimum wage was $1.15. (11.5 comics per hour).

In 2018, the cover price of a DC comic (regular, plain old, non-special edition) is $3.99 and minimum wage is $7.25 per hour (less than 2 comics per hour). They are absurdly expensive today.

Not to mention that I can buy an AAA video game a couple of year old on steam for the price of a few comics and get a heck of a lot more entertainment value for it. Comics today are about the worst rip-off possible in the entertainment industry.

Re:Price, content

[Jason1729]

Tech has gotten better, printing quality has gotten better and much, much cheaper. To say that justifies higher cost for the same content is idiotic. A new-release blu ray this year, is a heck of a lot cheaper in real dollars than a new-release VHS was 30 years ago. But look at the video quality of the bluray. Look at the special effects budget of the movie on that bluray. And yet it's cheaper in real dollars.

While most things have gotten much cheaper in real dollars since the 1960's, comics are almost completely unique in having increased insanely in real dolllar price.

And look at the specs of my laptop that cost $1000 today, and compare it to the iconic Toshiba T1000 that cost $2700 corrected to inflation back in 1986.

SJW Mafia Tactics

[Kunedog]

After an extremely successful IndieGogo campaign, leftist comic book stores colluded to refuse carrying Jawbreakers, and to intimidate the publisher into pulling out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Something that readers clearly want is being denied to them by the SJW cancer in the industry.

Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis: Flagging interest from readers and competition from digital entertainment are dragging down sales.

What a surprise that you'd deliberately ignore the elephant in the room.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

After an extremely successful IndieGogo campaign, leftist comic book stores colluded to refuse carrying Jawbreakers, and to intimidate the publisher into pulling out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Something that readers clearly want is being denied to them by the SJW cancer in the industry.

Comic book publishers are facing a growing crisis: Flagging interest from readers and competition from digital entertainment are dragging down sales.

What a surprise that you'd deliberately ignore the elephant in the room.

Well, They are sayingStar Wars Solo Flopped because it had a while male lead. Far left political activists are just as racist, sexist, and can dredge up their own self validating excuses as well as the far right wingnuts can do.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[mvdwege]

Really, that 'white male lead is the problem' meme started as fucking joke in progressive circles. I was there, I saw the first appearance of it, and I had to chuckle, as I just knew the screams of rage that would cause from the knuckle-dragging basement dwellers.

As you just went on to prove. Thank you.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[serviscope_minor]

After an extremely successful IndieGogo campaign,

That's great! They're successful independents. They got enough money to do the thing they wanted to do.

eftist comic book stores colluded to refuse carrying Jawbreaker

Sounds like you're saying "I got money you have to like me now!!!"

Those "leftist" comic book stores can carry whatever they like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Oh good grief youtbe links. No thanks. I've sat through far too many videos by the sort of people who complain about SJW back in the gamergate days and without exception they were awful and a colosal waste of time.

Even conservative publications it appears don't agree with your description of the situation:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/...

Something that readers clearly want is being denied to them by the SJW cancer in the industry.

It got funded on indegogo. I'm sure theycan manage to print and distribute to the funders. I've seen successful campaings do that without ever engaging a publisher.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[AmiMoJo]

Who are "they"? Do you have a link to them saying this?

All the reviews I have read say it flopped because it was not a very good movie.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Really, that 'white male lead is the problem' meme started as fucking joke in progressive circles. I was there, I saw the first appearance of it, and I had to chuckle, as I just knew the screams of rage that would cause from the knuckle-dragging basement dwellers.

As you just went on to prove. Thank you.

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

But allow this knuckle dragger to go on here.

We live in an age where one's commentary lives forever once on the internet.

It is not remotely difficult to find examples of people claiming that white men are the problem a simple DDG search or Google search will provide examples - try it

Huff Post White Men Of Academia Have An ‘Objectivity’ Problem https://www.huffingtonpost.com...

White males are a problem population, according to Saida Grundy of Boston U. https://www.thenewamerican.com...

https://www.damemagazine.com/2...

Here's one that is an interesting read https://www.huffingtonpost.com... Authored by a woman of African descent, it is both racist and has a kernal of truth in it.

I'm bored now - you want any more do the work yourself.

Are there people that are considered "white" who are obvious racists? Oh hell yes. And history is littered with their crimes.

But yes Virginia, there are people of all races and creeds and political affiliations that are racist. "white" is considered a race. Men are considered a sex. Unless you are referring to medical issues that might affect one group over another like the issues fair skinned people have in tropical sunny environments to issues faced by people with dark pigmentation face with Vitamin D shortage in northern environments, referring to angry white men is the same as referring to angry black men.

And y'all can deny you are racist just as well as the guy who likes to dress in bedsheets and burn crosses on the lawns of people they have identified by race.

tl;dr version: The far left shouldn't make jokes that look and read exactly how they feel. If you make a "joke" that reads exactly how people who are serious racists write, you'll have to forgive people who look at your "joke" and believe you mean the same.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[squiggleslash]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Or maybe, just maybe, right wingers are unable to comprehend jokes and humor?

I still remember the feeling of disbelief I had pre-GG when someone told me what a terrible woman Jessica Valenti was. "She hates men" the poster cried. "She does?" I said with surprise, having just read an article by her on how great it is we celebrate Father's Day, and how grateful she was to her dad for being a positive force in her life and wonderful role model. "Yes, did you see? She wore a T-shirt captioned "I bathe in male tears!" She must hate men!"

You have to be spectacularly dumb to think the male tears thing is anything but a joke, especially knowing the context (Valenti had, at that point, suffered years of abusive death threats and other shitty behavior from so-called critics due to her feminist advocacy, almost all of which characterizing her work as anti-men) but it does seem like a sizable part of the group obsessed with so-called SJWs really cannot tell the difference between someone making fun of you by repeating your own language back at you (such snowflakes these people are!) and genuine beliefs.

So... you think the "white male lead is a problem" thing was serious, huh? You don't think... given how improbable it is that someone would say "Movies are failing because they do something almost every movie has done since Harold Lloyd was hanging from clocks at the top of tall buildings, and how similar the criticism is to the protests of the manosphere against movies like Rogue One with merely the roles reversed, that it might have been a joke?

A really, really, obvious joke?

A joke so fucking obvious I'm actually having difficultly believing you wrote an essay on how "the far left" says things apparently seriously and then pretends they're jokes, using this as the example, but, I have to believe it, because you did?

I'd make a joke about it, but you'd probably take me seriously...

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[mvdwege]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Funny. Every time a kerfluffle about sexism starts online it's you manbabies crying "bitches can't take a joke"

Take your projection, and stuff it up your arse, you bigoted wanker.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Who are "they"? Do you have a link to them saying this?

All the reviews I have read say it flopped because it was not a very good movie.

I'm curious - is serviscope_minor a sock puppet of yours? Just noticed after I ignore that one's posts, you pop up. And there are some similarities, except he's much ruder, and fun to ignore.

But I've seen a litany of reasons. But only a few touched on fan revolt.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Funny. Every time a kerfluffle about sexism starts online it's you manbabies crying "bitches can't take a joke"

Take your projection, and stuff it up your arse, you bigoted wanker.

Do tell us more - Also consider posting as an AC - I do understand that you are racist and sexist - I am firmly in the middle, and you left wing kooks merely serve to entertain me. As do the Right Wingnuts, it's especially fun to see you at each other's throats.

Sorry, but from a not idelogical perspective you are teh same thing as those you coonsider your enemies - A racist sexist bigot. Now get back to making me laugh sparky - it's raining here, and I'm stuck at the computer with the need to piss someone off - and you show potential, muchacho.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

Problem is, every time the far left gets caught in some racist and sexist moment. it automagically becomes a joke

Or maybe, just maybe, right wingers are unable to comprehend jokes and humor?

You'l have to ask a right winger. I just speak truth to either side.

"Yes, did you see? She wore a T-shirt captioned "I bathe in male tears!" She must hate men!"

That is a whole awful lot of semen to take a bath in! Because Male tears is slang for male ejaculate.

So... you think the "white male lead is a problem" thing was serious, huh?

Here's the issue. If you can simply say that anything that blows up in your face is a joke - Then the kooks on the right can say that Their disgrace as a president was just joking when he bragged about grabbing women by the pussy.

Sorry muchacho - you want special privileges. Just like the far right does.

It doesn't matter one bathtub of male tears what I think - although that must have been one hell of a bukake moment, amirite?

You don't think... given how improbable it is that someone would say "Movies are failing because they do something almost every movie has done since Harold Lloyd was hanging from clocks at the top of tall buildings, and how similar the criticism is to the protests of the manosphere against movies like Rogue One with merely the roles reversed, that it might have been a joke?

One thing I've found is that neither the far left or far right have much of a sense of humor. While the middle left does indeed make the best humor, the extremes are too full of themselves to actually be funny. It tends to come out as either sadistic or bitter.

I'd make a joke about it, but you'd probably take me seriously...

Sorry squiggleslash - I definitely do not take you seriously.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[mvdwege]

I do understand that you are racist and sexist

"You are the real racists!!!11!!". Wonderful. Two more and I have Bingo.

Re:SJW Mafia Tactics

[Ol Olsoc]

I do understand that you are racist and sexist

"You are the real racists!!!11!!". Wonderful. Two more and I have Bingo.

You'll get there, I have faith in you.

OUTED

[Kunedog]

By using the term "SJW", you have OUTED yourself as someone who has had to deal with annoying, dishonest, power hungry, attention-seeking, hypocritical SJWs.

Re:OUTED

[ITRambo]

SJW's are a very pushy minority. The market is telling them to dial it back. I hope all of the entertainment industry realizes that they need to appeal to the morals and ethos of their customer, or lose the customers.

Re:OUTED

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut the fuck up you white racists, Superman is now a proud black transsexual and you all can fucking eat it.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

Wow - that was a strange post to have marked as a troll. Le't see if I can explain this situation in a manner that won't trigger anyone.

Let us say that a group of people want 21st century politics brought into say, Star Wars movies or comic books.

Let's say that want character's sexual identity to be a focus, perhaps more female and less male characters, Okay, so after discussions, the creators of the movies put people in place that will promote your agenda. This will be a radical shift, and will dismiss what the traditional audience wishes to see, which in these cases is obviously escapist entertainment with a good story line.

So here is the most important part - if people with a political agenda succeed in turning away the traditional customers, then the people with that political agenda must become the new customers. Which is what I believe ITRambo is saying.

We saw a huge fan revolt with Star Wars - Solo. And the weird Disney response was it was the fault of White males. https://www.tigerdroppings.com... Original article was on Forbes - they provide link but Forbes won't let me in.

Aside from the blatant racism (white) and Sexism (males) it was failure to see the forest for the agenda.

Point is - if you want your comic books and sci-fi movies to be politically correct, sensitive to who the characters like to have sex with - and display it - and socially inclusive, making these films about otherworld characters reflect 21st century shortcomings........

You have to go to the movies and You have to buy the comic books, and You have to buy the action figures that the people You kicked off the train used to do. You own it now - so spend that money or you won't own it long.

And seriously, if you feel you have to mark this little bit of good advice as troll, it only indicates that you can't take telling. Support your causes, not just complain.

Re: OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

Shut the fuck up you nlgger Nazi Trump loving GOP INCEL faggot retard kike!

Wow, women want you, men want to be like you. Please, tell us more!

Re:OUTED

[AmiMoJo]

But that was the one that was about a straight white male... Surely if diversity was the problem then the other three new-era films would have flopped and Solo would have been a huge success.

Maybe it's just not a very good film, or we have reached Star Wars saturation point.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

Yeah they did. They just don't like hearing about how they come across.

That's pretty sad. Not knowing one's self never works out well.

Re:OUTED

[Ol Olsoc]

But that was the one that was about a straight white male... Surely if diversity was the problem then the other three new-era films would have flopped and Solo would have been a huge success.

Maybe it's just not a very good film, or we have reached Star Wars saturation point.

No, the sequence of events was that after Rogue one, there was some murmering among the fans regarding the direction the franchise was taking. That was the time that Kennedy told the world that she wasn't there to serve men.

Next up, the Last Jedi was simply a lame film. Yes, there were some social Justice aspects, but also some awful plot lines, and some simply ridiculous parts of the movie. Think Princess Leia's Mary Poppins debacle. Now there have been some not so good Star Wars films in the past, but Kennedy et al met any criticism with condescension. A complaint is a gift, and they refused the gift. So the fans who complained simply said they were going to stay way. And they did.

As I noted in another post, Disney and Kennedy can turn the Star Wars Franchise into an intergalactic RuPaul's Drag Race, or here comes Honey Boo-Boo In Orbit if they like. They own the rights.

But don't blame the male fans after chasing them away. Oh - plenty of female Star Wars fans stayed home as well.

Re:OUTED

[painandgreed]

But that was the one that was about a straight white male... Surely if diversity was the problem then the other three new-era films would have flopped and Solo would have been a huge success.

Maybe it's just not a very good film, or we have reached Star Wars saturation point.

Maybe it was because it was right after two other big block busters? Many of the shared fans went to see Infinity War and Deadpool multiple times. Solo landed at the wrong time. I like going to the movies, but no to the point of going to them every Friday for a month. While that probably wasn't all the issue, I bet that it didn't help at all.

Re:OUTED

[AmiMoJo]

The trailers for Solo looked really bad.

Re:OUTED

[Areyoukiddingme]

Shut the fuck up you white racists, Superman is now a proud black transsexual and you all can fucking eat it.

Superman was already a proud black man. Bizarro is his opposite, and he's pasty white. Therefore Superman is black.

Re:OUTED

[Radiophobic]

Definitely Star Wars saturation point. I saw the first new new Star Wars film, almost out of morbid curiosity. It was ok, but wasn't enough to make me want to see any of the others. I did appreciate the fact that the neither of the main characters were straight white males.

As it stands, every time I see a poster for a new star wars film I roll my eyes and think to myself "Do we really need another one of those?".

I can guarantee you the studio knows full well what the actual causes of failure were. They aren't going to start admitting that it was people being bored of star wars movies; they still have a lot of money invested in the property. If they actually blamed its lack of success on white males, it probably seemed the safest scapegoat for both the stockholders and consumers.

Re:OUTED

[drsquare]

The morals and ethos of all the characters being white men?

Here's an idea that just might work

[Opportunist]

Produce what sells and not what some loudmouths that never bought comic books (and never will) demand.

Yes, it is actually that easy.

DC's aware of this

[rsilvergun]

They're pushing a 100 page comic for distribution at Walmarts

I think the killer is the nerd economy just keeps getting worse. I see more and more people here on work visas and less opportunity for nerds. A lot of the nerds I know still making OK money are working 60-80 hours a week to do it. You don't have time for comic collecting when you're pulling those kinds of hours.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Hognoxious]

Of course you have time for collecting them. Now reading, that's another thing.

But look on the bright side - if they haven't been read they'll be worth more when you're sacked for being over 40.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Bing Tsher E]

WTF is the 'nerd economy.'

I think you mean the hyped up bullshit that's been marketed as 'nerd' for about the last decade.

The nerd economy goes on at ham radio swapmeets. It thrives out behind the science building at universities where cool old equipment is being captured and saved by nerds instead of being thrown away. In nerd-owned labs where old 'scopes and power supplies are used to fix and build new gear. In darkened amateur observatories where people who've ground their own mirrors gaze up at night.

'Nerd' as marketed by the popular entertainment operation was always a marketing fraud operation.

If you read too many mainstream comix, you can't be a nerd. Nerds are much more likely into hard SF.

Re:DC's aware of this

[Bing Tsher E]

True, but 'brick and mortar' electronic components have suffered the same way as other retail. DigiKey has almost anything you could imagine wanting and they ship fast.

Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[rsilvergun]

was successful. The comic is widely available.

What you're referring to seems to stem from an article Buzz Feed ran here complaining that people who pushed for more diversity in comics were being trolled, harassed and threatened. Because everyone in the media likes to boil stuff down to a controversy they called the phenomenon "comicsgate".

Pushes for diversity in comics have been going on since the mid-90s boom times. You can't pin the drop in sales on that because it's a nearly 25 year old movement in the industry. The goal isn't to be "SJW" it's to expand readership beyond young teen boys. Girls in particular are a desirable target demographic because, well, they read a lot more than boys (seriously, look it up, or ask yourself what the biggest hit books are and take a look at how they appeal to girls).

The industry's flagging not because of diversity, it's flagging because the entire US economy's in the crapper for everyone but the top 10% or so and those people are busy enjoying their wealth instead of reading comics (the occasional Sultan in Dubai aside). The nerd economy in particular is hurting because of outsourcing and in-sourcing (e.g. H1-Bs). Comic book publishers have lost their last remaining base. They lost the kids to video games and now they've lost the nerds to, well, supply side economics.

TL;DR, it's the economy stoopid (TM)

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Anonymous Coward]

The goal isn't to be "SJW" it's to expand readership beyond young teen boys. Girls in particular are a desirable target demographic ...

The industry's flagging not because of diversity, it's flagging because the entire US economy's in the crapper

That's one theory. Another theory is that going SJW is alienating the core readership (teenage boys), and isn't bringing in enough girls to compensate for the loss of the boys.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[samdu]

You've managed to point out the lunacy of the SJW movement and its lack of necessity all in the same post, attempting to disprove either. You are absolutely correct in that comics have been diverse (actually, it goes back WAY past the 90s). The problem is that SJWs saw and see the medium as wildly homogeneous and lacking any diversity. So they felt the had to do something about it. What they did was replace classic characters Iron Man (to a black, female teenager), Hulk (to a young asian guy), Thor (to a female), Captain America (to a black man), Ice Man (well, not replaced physically, but they made a character that had been straight since the 60s into a gay man), etc... etc... And even worse, they did it willy-nilly and badly. Stories ceased to matter. All that mattered was representation and making sure to poke straight white dudes in the eye at every opportunity on social media. The people that were buying comics before this upheaval spanned several generations who, mostly, never had a problem with a black woman leading the X-Men or a black man taking up the mantle of Iron Man. That these self-same people are rebelling at what Marvel is doing now should speak volumes. And it is. It's just that SJWs don't comprehend what they're hearing because they started from a flawed premise.

You expand a market by bringing in new people. NOT by kicking your existing market out and trying to replace it with a market that doesn't yet exist. Comics tried the latter. It's failing miserably.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Ol Olsoc]

You expand a market by bringing in new people. NOT by kicking your existing market out and trying to replace it with a market that doesn't yet exist. Comics tried the latter. It's failing miserably.

And how! This is what happens when entertainment industries take their marching orders from people who have ideology that can't handle anything but their own narrow views. It never works. And in this case, is tantmount to suicide.

I have an idea. Maybe if we worked from a expansion outlook. There are a lot of popular female characters from a long time ago. I don't know of any gay characters, although there were rumors about Robin and Batman. We don't have to have a gay Green Lantern, or a Female Superman.

Bring out some new characters, maybe?

Let's have a seat and Old Uncle Ol will tell everyone soem stuff that I think traditional fans know already.

Those teenagers that read these comics? Hey - they be doin a liddle projection there. Maybe fancyin' themselves as Batman or The Hulk, or Green Lantern. Or even da Joker, or Catwoman.

Now here we got some Kid who thinks Green Lantern is cool, then suddenly Green Lantern comes out of the closet and says he prefers weiners. Oh man, would we have a field day with that poor bastard when me and the gang were kids.

Gay Characters? No problem. Female? Oh fer crissakes, we've had dem fereva. People freakin' love Wonder Woman, and even Catwoman. But here's da thing. You don't grow yer audience by telling most of them Fuck you! Oh shit - don't tell mom I swore okay? You keep your core audience, and you introduce New Characters! Then maybe that kid that isn't sure of his or her sexuality can become a fan of a character that he or she can project to. And you don't make their gender preferences blatant. These are comics, and If people want to see stuff gender specific, rule 34 does a much better job than mainstream comics can.

Who knew?

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Opportunist]

Yes, girls are a very desirable demographic. But the problem they faced, and failed to address, was how to attract that demographic while not alienating the existing audience in the process. They achieved exactly the opposite, they did not pull in new readers while at the same time making existing ones turn away.

It's not an economic problem. Comics were pretty much inflation-adjusted stable until the 1970s when the price started to rise already, and there was no problem. Inflation-adjusted prices doubled from 1970 to 1990 and there was no dip in sales. So it ain't the price, really. We're also not talking about Faberge egg collecting, this is comic books. We're looking at a price tag where you can still buy 2-3 comic books for the price of a delivery pizza, and last time I checked, food delivery isn't about to crumble because people would rather buy frozen stuff and heat it in their microwave rather than order some pizza out.

It is the content.

And it isn't even that traditionally white male roles have been "diversified". We've had that before. What is the problem is that this has become the focus. That action heroes started to be "sensitive" and "talk about their feelings". And nobody reading those comic books really cared about that crap. And while we enjoy back stories and giving characters a (usually tragic) history, there is a reason it's called a back story. It's supposed to flesh the character out and give him some depth, not become the fucking focus of his stories.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[CODiNE]

I was checking out the new Captian Marvel storyline. The character was interesting, it had a lot of that young person not fitting in X-men sort of vibe. The strange thing was how she kept turning into this white blonde pre-existing character. Which actually brings up a whole other set of issues. Eh I liked it. Maybe they eventually make her into her own character without calling her Captian Marvel. Of course in the movies it'll be Calptain Marvel classic. They only really changed Nick Fury there and left the rest alone, wonder why. People have no problem with new characters just don't retcon everything.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[terrycarlino]

I think they went with a black Fury because Marvel Ultimate had a Nick Fury based on Samuel L. Jackson and the chance to actually cast the actor in the role was just too good a chance to pass up. Jackson has made a really good Fury, IMHO, and I'm looking forward to seeing him in his prime in Captain Marvel.

Re:Um... by your own admission the indiegogo

[Areyoukiddingme]

Gay Characters? No problem. Female? Oh fer crissakes, we've had dem fereva. People freakin' love Wonder Woman, and even Catwoman. But here's da thing. You don't grow yer audience by telling most of them Fuck you! Oh shit - don't tell mom I swore okay? You keep your core audience, and you introduce New Characters!

That's a much better reason to create new characters than the usual, which seemed to mostly involve weed (lots of weed) and the question, "What if there was a guy who...?" There were so many mutants in the X-Men universe, many with wildly stupid abilities, that Marvel finally threw in the towel and nuked them all in the House of M event.

Lack of characters has never been a problem comics suffered from. Lack of characters written worth a damn, now those are lacking.

3 Top Reasons

[Scarletdown]

1: They keep pissing off their established fan bases with needless changes, reboots, and retcons to appease the Butthurt Brigade.

2: Comics are just too freakin' expensive per issue for the amount and quality of content you get.

3: The barrier to entry is so low now that previously ignored but still decent talent can punch their own meal ticket. Unfortunately, that allows for a lot more total and utter shit to flood the pool. But that is less important than the ability to go it your own.

Re:3 Top Reasons

[SolemnLord]

1: They keep pissing off their established fan bases with needless changes, reboots, and retcons to appease the Butthurt Brigade.

Continuity is a mess at the best of times, crossovers universally suck, and having to understand a byzantine layer of backstory doesn't draw in new readers. Ignoring that constant growing readership (which is what the big two's shareholders are undoubtedly demanding) is a fool's game, established fanbases die. Either literally or they drift off. New readers are a necessity to keep comics alive, never mind thriving. The movies and TV shows are immensely popular, but not turning into monthly readers despite people loving the characters.

Endless crises on infinite earths are eyerolling and infuriating, I totally agree. Trying to manage literally decades of continuity is also untenable. Long-term serialization is both awesome and slowly rotting away comics' strongest characters. I doubt there's a good solution available at all.

2: Comics are just too freakin' expensive per issue for the amount and quality of content you get.

Agreed. Personally I think getting rid of Diamond would help. Not directly or immediately, but ditching that fucking cancerous system would help out retailers and make publishers more immediately responsible to their customers which in turn would, at least, bring back realistic capitalist supply-and-demand. That's just a pet wish of mine, though.

3: The barrier to entry is so low now that previously ignored but still decent talent can punch their own meal ticket. Unfortunately, that allows for a lot more total and utter shit to flood the pool. But that is less important than the ability to go it your own.

Is this a strike against it? You honestly seem to be arguing both ways here. Lower barrier to entry means more opportunities for new blood. Yeah, there'll be dreck, but let's not pretend that lots of established players aren't shit or that there's no absolutely exquisite new talent on the scene. New writers and artists mean new stories and new readers. All that matters then is getting the best stories into everybody's hands.

Re:3 Top Reasons

[Scarletdown]

That third one was in favor of the lower barrier to entry, with the caveat that it has the drawback of generating a bigger cesspool to sift through. But that freedom to go it your own more than makes up for it.

In other words, "You take the good; you take the bad; you take them both...etc." :)

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

Just because you call some chick thor, or some chick iron man, or some chick hulk...

Hey! Don't go dragging Miss Walters into this, at least the Byrne and earlier era She Hulks, or me SMASH puny Human. :)

What happened to Female Thor and Girlverine sales?

[sandbagger]

Out of idle curiosity?

The natural cycle

[Stomper_Stoddard]

I think this is just the natural cycle of the comics industry. What we are seeing is the end of the Bronze Age. The older generation of readers are dying off or moving on, all the mainstay writers and artists started in the 80's and 90's and they were new and interesting in the 80's and 90's, now they are old and stale. Just look at the state of comics in the mid 50's just prior to the Silver Age and then again in the mid 70's just prior to the Bronze Age. Comics in those time periods were lackluster and uninteresting written by people who had been writing the same stories with the same characters for a couple of decades and the readers who liked those stories were dying off or moving on.

What is needed and what will eventually happen is the old writers and artists will price themselves out of the market, retire or die and a new generation of writers and artists will emerge who want to tell new and interesting stories, creating new characters or doing fresh takes on old characters. Most importantly, these new people will know how to speak to the new generation of readers who will also emerge.

It's not really a movement

[rsilvergun]

it's a small group of women running out of community colleges. It's blown out of proportion by right wing media out to make a boogie man (boogie woman?) to distract you from economic issues like wages declining as productivity raises.

Even in as much as there's anyone seriously advocating for diversity they're doing it purely for economic reasons, usually either to reach new audiences for media they're selling or trying to bring in more workers to their businesses to drive down wages (re: silicon valley).

Always, always, always follow the money.

Re:It's not really a movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Kathleen Kennedy. Ever heard of her? A one of the richest women in the world, she is the publisher of most of the movies that you have seen and want to see. And a champion of the SJW cause.

I am too lazy to look up who owns the Disney company, or the various comic book publishers, that keep ruining movies by shoving this political agenda down our throats. But they are certainly more rich, powerful, connected, and influential than "a small group of women running out of community colleges."

Re:It's not really a movement

[Ol Olsoc]

it's a small group of women running out of community colleges. It's blown out of proportion by right wing media out to make a boogie man (boogie woman?) to distract you from economic issues like wages declining as productivity raises.

My career was at one of the biggest Universities in the US, and while blown out of proportion to some extent, it isn't as much as you might think.

The females who stayed could look forward to what we called the yearly promotion plan, and the rule was that anything that any woman considered sexual harassment was officially sexual harassment.

Universities are run by their football departments and Gender studies departments. The Football because it brings in money, and the Gender studies department because they never stop complaining. We're already heading toward 70 percent female 30 percent male, and it still isn't enough.

Re:It's not really a movement

[serviscope_minor]

Universities are run by their football departments and Gender studies departments.

Universities being run by the small department with no money! That's one of the most charming things I've heard on slashdot today.

For me, price

[Bigbutt]

Long ago. My ex and I bought loads of comics back in the 70’s when we first got married. Hitting 7/11 mostly I think. I still have them, some 9 long boxes of them. But as the 80’s rolled in, comics were getting to be too costly so we basically walked away. My local game store tried carrying them recently and stopped after 6 months or so, not because they weren’t selling but because the distributor wanted him to buy a lot more than his clientele were actually buying. Personally the comics were still pricier than I wanted to pay even though I certainly could afford it now. But I can get a complete story in a book for the price of a few comics and since comics are serialized, with a book I don’t miss some part of the story like I did in the 70’s.

[John]

Re:For me, price

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah, I quit collecting comics (mostly Marvel) around 1992. They were too expensive for the value you got, and there were too many forced, artificial ways of driving sales without adding value (crossover stories that went on for dozens of issues, but went nowhere). When you're selling a product designed for kiddies and a professional thinks they're too expensive, you're doing something wrong.

I miss comics, but everything I've seen and read about the industry since then makes me glad I quit.

Re:Heres an idea

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah, She-Hulk dates back to the late 70s, and was an attempt to make a new and interesting character based on the Hulk, not some SJW nonsense.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

And she did 4th wall long before Deadpool. :D

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

I figured she was likely an attempt to get more girls reading super hero comics. Probably multiple reasons though. Doesn't have to be just one or the other.

Ask your fans

[AHuxley]

The people who actually buy your product.
Find out what they want and give them the plots and mythology, timeline, universe the customers want.

Re:Heres an idea

[dirk]

It's funny, no one had an issue when a white guy replaced a white guy. When Bucky became Cap, no one was screaming. But when Sam Wilson does (the guy who actually makes the most sense) suddenly it is because of diversity. When white guy after white guy became Batman, no one complained. When white guy after white guy became the Flash, no one cared. When another white guy became Ant Man, no one cared. When Venom went from white guy to white guy, no one cared. But the minute it is someone other than another white guy, then suddenly it is only about diversity and it is a tragedy of epic proportions.

Streaming?

[cascadingstylesheet]

Comic Book Publishers, Faced With Flagging Sales, Look To Streaming

So, like still images on Netflix or something?

Or the frames will be album covers on Spotify?

Methinks something unusual is being meant by "streaming", "comic books", or both here ..

How to do a comic

[AHuxley]

1. Study who is still buying comics and why.
2. Create existing comic plots for them using the plots and characters they will pay for.
3. Look who could be sold a comic with new plots.
4. Create vampire, pirate (ship and treasure), billionaire, medicine comics for readers who want a different, modern plot style.

That keeps existing plots. Decades of readers who buy comics enjoy a happy ending in the fictional universe they enjoy.
Readers can find a new comic style with varied modern plots with their own fictional universe, timeline and continuity.

Re:How to do a comic

[Aighearach]

What if they don't know how to write new plots, and when they hire professional writers to write plots, they hate them really bad and don't want to publish it?

It almost seems as if most of them need to go out of business for a few years, so that it can re-grow as a green field that lets in ideas with a market.

Re:How to do a comic

[AHuxley]

That should have the creative skills to do both. Create new content and keep their exisiting content to a great standard.
Why the need to totally change what was selling and not invest in totally new content?

It's quite simple...

[William Baric]

Get Woke, Go Broke.

I'm sorry to put out ...

[Qbertino]

... a bit of an anti-US rant but could you guys across the pond FINALLY PLEASE stop equating your frigging super-hero-comic-trash for "comics in general"? It is very annoying and it doesn't help that your keep repeating it.

Franco Belgian / European comics - and Japanese / Asian comics - are doing excellent and the market for high quality grown up stuff is ever growing with small publishers popping up left, right and center all the time. I have to actively limit my time at the comic store these days lest I leave all my income there. In the last 3 decades the quality of available material has grown way beyond anything available in the US at measurable scale and it's safe to conclude that anyone living in the US probably has a very very limited view of what comics and grafic novels are and can be. ... So once again:
Super hero comics are not comics in general. They are a very small fraction of comic genres in general and the quality of the material and the ever repetitive shite pulp publishers like Marvel and DC put out is bound to lead people getting fed up. This is no big surprise to anyone with a non-US perspective on comics. That US superhero trash doesn't sell anymore is actually a healthy reaction.

Minor nitpick

[Synonymous Homonym]

I just want to say that "The Avengers" are John Steed and Emma Peel. ("The New Avengers" John Steed and Tara King.)

Marvel's superhero team is just "Avengers", without the definite article.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

The difference is that it became a regular schtick with her.

Re:Heres an idea

[serviscope_minor]

Wow you don't actually understand what any of those words mean do you?

Re:Heres an idea

[Opportunist]

Because the story was not about a white guy replacing a white guy. It was still superhero goes to save the day against evildoer in funny costume.

The problem isn't that the superhero is now a black lesbian woman, the problem is that the story revolves around her being a black lesbian woman.

Comic book shops are actually part of the problem

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

I rarely buy comics, but a few months ago a special issue came out that I did actually want to buy. It had 3 variant covers and I wanted them all. So I went to 2 different comics shops in my part of town. Keep in mind that I live in the suburbs of one of the larger metropolitan areas in the USA, so you can imagine how much worse things are if you live in a small town.

The reality is that to protect comic book shops, publishers don't sell individual titles or subscriptions to some comics. Yes, I'm sure that there are exceptions to this, but it was true for the specific comic I wanted, which was by Marvel. So I go to comic book shop number one. They are actually a used book store who sells a few comics on the side. They get only the very biggest sellers, which meant that they never even had a copy of the comic I wanted. So I go to shop number 2, which is a true comic book shop. That is what they sell to stay in business. I talked to the owner. The owner said she thought she got in one or two copies of the comic and they were sold and she won't be getting any more. Since I was already there, I asked her did she get any of the Disney comics that were revived a year or two ago. She said that she carried a few when they first came out but didn't sell them, so she didn't carry them any more. And the publisher of Disney comics in the USA does not do subscriptions and with very few exceptions does not sell individual issues themselves.

At this point, I gave up because it seemed like trying to go to more comic shops was just going to waste more of my time. In the end, I bought all 3 copies of the comic I wanted on Ebay from a seller who apparently had access to a comic book shop that could get all variant covers. I had to pay about double face price plus shipping, but I got them all. I almost forgot to mention that I looked online to see if any of the big online comic book retailers could sell me the comic I wanted with the variant covers. Nobody could sell me anything but the main cover version. Amazon didn't have this comic for sale either except in the main cover variant.

So in the end, I learned that the following insanity is how the comic book publishing business is run today.
1) To protect comic book shops, publishers mostly refuse to sell directly to individuals, forcing you to go to comic books shops.
2) If your local comic book shop sells out of something you want, too bad. They probably can't get more of it.
3) If there's a variant cover and you want it, your local shop may not carry it. And online retailers definitely won't. Apparently publishers only send variant covers to selected comic shops.
4) You may be forced to turn to Ebay to buy something if you can't get it in a shop.
5) Even Amazon can't stop this insanity. They may be able to sell a specific issue to you if you want it, but they don't get variant cover issues to sell.

So am I surprised that this unwillingness to sell comics to people who actually want to buy them has blown up in their faces? No I am not.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

She Hulk was a riff on the "Ms. Male Character" trope that was common in comics around then. The most obvious examples are characters like Supergirl and Batgirl. For some reason Marvel has less of them.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

I think this could be the first time I've ever seen a genuine "SJW" in the wild. Someone who makes spurious accusations of racism and bigotry and is easily offended.

Unless... You are not being serious. I can't tell. May be a skilful troll.

Wrong.

[Qbertino]

don't worry... the SJW thought police will come after Japanese and European comics soon.

No they won't. Because unlike marvel/DC pulp Eurocomics are so diverse it will make even the most progressive social issue proponents head spin. In fact, if there is any media genre that is proactively progressive it's Eurocomics and perhaps some modern high quality manga. Female heroes in abundance. And unlike prude USians teen sex, sex in general, naked people, handycapped heroes and other stuff too, without *anybody* doing wee-wee in their panties because of it. ... OMG you have so little of an idea it would blow your mind. Gung Ho has sexual and power abuse as a friggin sideplot!

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

I think this could be the first time I've ever seen a genuine "SJW" in the wild. Someone who makes spurious accusations of racism and bigotry and is easily offended.

Unless... You are not being serious. I can't tell. May be a skilful troll.

90 percent troll. But when you want to tell if a person is racist - review their comments and replace white with black, and men with women and review. If the new statement is racist or sexist - the original one is too. That isn't spurious unless you support racism and sexism against white males - and just don't recognize it.

And I'm actually pretty hard to offend - but I don't at all mind offending others - especially if the purposeful offending statement carries the truth. Otherwise, I am happy to sit and watch the far left and far right accuse each other of whatever offends them at the moment, not understanding that they are looking in a mirror, and mereely seeing their own reflections.

How?!

[iq145]

With the unbelievable amount of money they're making by turning those comic books into movies these days, it should balance out...

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

Don't you think that there might be some historic context though?

Image Comics does another thing right

[Briareos]

While the article mentioned Image Direct where you can subscribe to physical issues of their comics via mail, I'm actually more a fan of the fact that they will also sell DRM-free, high-res PDF, ePub, CBZ and CBR copies of their releases directly via their site, which for me is a much better offer than physical copies - I live in Europe so shipping would be killer, and since my fucking upstairs ex-neighbor managed to flood my home and especially the room I kept my books, comics, DVDs and CDs in twice I've gone almost all-digital for my entertainment.

Also, it helps that Image - while having a few long-running superhero series (Spawn, Savage Dragon, the just ended Invinicible, ...) and some reboots (Cyberforce, Witchblade, Kick-Ass, ...) - also releases a variety of series in all kinds of genres, many also rather short instead of the endless same-y stream coming from Marvel and DC, like:

Blood Stain, Chew, Curse Words, Death Or Glory, Death Vigil, Descender, Postal/Think Tank/The Tithe/Eden's Fall, Elsewhere, The Fix, The Fuse, I Hate Fairyland, Lazarus, Low, Monstress, Paper Girls, Rat Queens, Revival, Royal City, Saga, Scales & Scoundrels, Sex Criminals, Sunstone, Tokyo Ghost, Wayward and The Wicked + The Divine

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

Don't you think that there might be some historic context though?

Hell yeah. There has been some real atrocities performed by white people. The USA has an ongoing racial problem. The Germans in World War 2 and the events leading up to it were terribly racist. Europe has gone through some horrible ethnic cleansing efforts even since then.

But the problem isn't "white people" or "white men". Ask a Korean about how they feel about the Japanese. Ask the Armenians about the Turks. Ask the Tutsi about the Hutus. There might be a local genocide in the offing in Africa as the South African national Assembly has voted by a huge margin to allow confistcation of white owned property https://www.thetribunepapers.c... . Shades of 1930's Germany.

So here is where we find ourselves. In the USA, white people are going to find themsleves in a minority in the not too distant future.

And as the far left is allowing itself to delude itself that white males are the problem, and that somehow racism in the pursuit of eliminating racism will somehow work. perhaps we'll be dealing with that sort of thing in the future.

It's just a case of becoming what you hate. For your reading pleasure, these people care about the end results of racism, be it left or right http://www.genocidewatch.org/

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

What is mean it's, can you really just swap the words white and black to determine if something is racist, or are there things that are dependent on historic actions?

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

What is mean it's, can you really just swap the words white and black to determine if something is racist, or are there things that are dependent on historic actions?

It of course is dependent on circumstances. But if a derogatory remark about any race or sex is made, it is racist. or sexist or both.

It seems odd to me that you would single out "white" people as being exempt from racism and racial slurs. Am I so naive to think that if a person professes to be non-racist that they would not pre-judge people by the color of their skin or the accident of birth that determines their gender?

Or am I cynical enough to believe that these people are simply just as racist as the people they hate, and simply believe that they are right, so the ends and any end at all - justifies their hatred, and lying about to others, and worse, themselves, is a perfectly acceptable thing to do because their cause is just. Then again, I sometimes have trouble understanding the far left and far right. They have different targets for their hatred, but their minds appear to have the same need to hate other humans that they never met. Because they think they know all about them. Probably based on fear of "the other".

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

It seems odd to me that you would single out "white" people as being exempt from racism and racial slurs.

It seems odd to me that you would get that impression from what I wrote. It's very difficult to have a discussion when the other person takes what you say in the worst possible light rather than trying to understand your position and assuming good faith.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

It seems odd to me that you would get that impression from what I wrote. It's very difficult to have a discussion when the other person takes what you say in the worst possible light rather than trying to understand your position and assuming good faith.

I do understand that some people would find that odd. Perhaps I can illustrate

Saying that many white people in America have had a problem with Racism is not a racist statement.

Saying White Americans are racist surely is. Saying that white supremacists are racist is not racist - it's in their descriptive name

Saying that women are sexist is surely sexist and prejudicial.

Saying that many third wave feminists are racist and sexist has plenty of evidence to show that to be the truth. I've done enough research to see that.

People with light pigmentation can be racist. People with dark pigmentation can be racist. Males can be sexist. Females can be sexist.

As an American, I have much of the baggage of our highly racist past. So I double parse my statements to try to make certain I don't say something stupid.

As a person who believes in the equality of the sexes with equitable opportunity, I have been left behind by the female supremacist racist and sexist attitude of third wave feminism. Yet this is not a blanket condemnation. I can make the decision on whether a woman is racist or sexist after interacting with her a while.

So I try to be color blind, and I try to be gender blind. The reason I go on about third wave feminism is merely warning people that where they end up might not be where they think they are going.

And finally, who is likely to be right - a person who weighs everything or the person who is so completely certain of their ideology that no criticism is allowed.

Because that no criticism allowed dogma is how ideologues can believe that they can make clearly racist and sexist commentary that through the magic of ideology, are not racist or sexist. Its the difference between wanting to fix the problem and wanting to just win.

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

Saying that many third wave feminists are racist and sexist has plenty of evidence to show that to be the truth. I've done enough research to see that.

Yeah, see that's problematic. You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments.

Worse, after all the complaining about "SJWs" calling everyone racist and sexist... Well, you are pretty loose with those terms too.

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

Saying that many third wave feminists are racist and sexist has plenty of evidence to show that to be the truth. I've done enough research to see that.

Yeah, see that's problematic. You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments.

Yeah see, you make some prejudicial statements about me.

I've worked in a University environment for over 30 years. That puts me in the direct line of third wave feminists. And in that environment when the lady talks - you listen. There is no such thing as debate. I wanted to keep my career.

Worse, after all the complaining about "SJWs" calling everyone racist and sexist... Well, you are pretty loose with those terms too.

You see - you use the same tactics. While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist, you will not allow another person to point out that the very statement is sexist and rscist.

You prove my point excellently - I am not supposed to debate. I am supposed to nod my head and accept it. And any other opinion is verboten.

Re:Heres an idea

[Scarletdown]

And if that wasn't bad enough, we were also inundated with the lad, lass, dog, and "other" versions as well (Batmite for example as an other).

Or do we not speak of Batmite?

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist

No, I absolutely reject that. That's my point, I would never say anything like that, and I don't know why you think I would.

I'm being serious, when you say "you make some prejudicial statements about me" I have no idea to what you are referring. You quoted some text... But it's just me talking about trying to avoid things that screw up debate.

Soooo expensive...

[Smid]

It is what? $3.99 a comic nowadays, for the normal Marvel and DC comics, right?

1/3rd of those pages are adverts, so its usually about 30 odd pages. Their value is also worthless after buying, I think I have maybe fifty comics out of the ten thousand I have worth more than $10 nearly 30 years later, and that's more Sandman 1-10 and Hellblazer 1-10...

Just cut to the chase and publish them in graphic novels. Give away the first comic for free and absorb that into the price of the graphic novels.

High prices reduces demand and is a death spiral. My comic shop sells pop toys to actually make profit, and I expect it to eventually stop selling comics the same way it stopped selling games and dvds ten years ago...

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

While you completely accept as non-racist and non sexist when somoene on your side talks about a particular sex and particular race being sexist and racist

No, I absolutely reject that. That's my point, I would never say anything like that, and I don't know why you think I would.

Let's back up a moment. You wrote:

"You may think it's true, it may even be true, but all it does it poison the well. It makes debate difficult when you start by attacking some unspecified proportion of a poorly defined group who are not around to defend themselves, and it's a logical fallacy when you use it to support your own arguments."

Does that sound like some fellow who has spent over 30 years dealing with third wavers? I even worked enthusiastically with trying to get young women involved with STEM, mainly the science and engineering end.

And I'll repeat, there is no debating the topic. Disagreeing with a third waver is dangerous for a male. The best you can do is being called a sexist. The worst you can do is they march off to human resources, and demand they "do something about that misogynist."

You quoted some text... But it's just me talking about trying to avoid things that screw up debate.

Yeah, and for the umpteenth time, there is No debate. When the slightest disagreement gets you declared as a misogynist and you know you are playing havoc with your career, you tend to practice avoidance rather than debate.

I'm not certain if you have spent much time in an academic environment. At one point this was a place to be exposed to different viewpoints. Controversial speakers did the circuits and you got to hear and speak with them. It was fun. Getting to ask Anne Coulter questions or get entertained with Bill Maher's caustic and politically incorrect humor was a blast. It was interesting to hear from Gloria Steinham. I could never quite get behind her stated belief that "A woman needs a man like a Fish needs a bicycle".

Today, Jerry freaking Seinfeld is too controversial for college campuses. Have an opinion that is not in lockstep with the third wavers, and you will be banned from speaking. And if not banned, you'll have protesters outside trying to deny access to your talk.

The situation has improved ever so slightly, as college administrators have finally figured out that the agents of outrage do not stop. Today Anne Coulter and Bill Maher, next Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock. Tomorrow?

Re:Heres an idea

[AmiMoJo]

Does that sound like some fellow who has spent over 30 years dealing with third wavers?

Well, yeah, it does... Your arguments seem to focus on them as a group rather than on specific arguments that are considered part of the third wave movement.

Look at it from my point of view, as someone trying to debate with you. You say "third wave feminists did/think/said X". Okay, what am I supposed to do with that? I can only defend my own position or discuss the ideas of third wave feminism in general. I can't defend or even really speculate about the motives of individuals I don't know and have not met, and with respect about whom I only have your side of the story.

If you want to discuss something like intersectionality or transmisogyny then that's fine, or if you want to identify a specific organization that has some published material (web site, manifesto etc.) so I can at least evaluate them myself then please do. But general complaints about "third wave feminists have been calling me a racist/sexist for 30 years" isn't really an argument... It's a complaint at best.

When the slightest disagreement gets you declared as a misogynist and you know you are playing havoc with your career, you tend to practice avoidance rather than debate.

So are you retired, or is Ol Olsoc a pseudonym, or do third wave feminists just not read Slashdot?

Re:Heres an idea

[Ol Olsoc]

Does that sound like some fellow who has spent over 30 years dealing with third wavers?

Well, yeah, it does... Your arguments seem to focus on them as a group rather than on specific arguments that are considered part of the third wave movement.

Look at it from my point of view, as someone trying to debate with you. You say "third wave feminists did/think/said X". Okay, what am I supposed to do with that?

You can agree, or disagree. One of the first issues that you might ask is why do I dislike third wave feminists. Because then we can go into more reasons.

Certainly their ease with castigating white males is not even my major issue with them.

My major issue is that they espouse the idea of the weak woman - so weak that Victorian women would call them sissies.

These are women for whom winking at them is sexual harassment and damages them. Just as an example. THat is remarkably weak.

The thing I find interesting is a I married an actual strong woman, who would go toe to toe with men, and who wouldn't put up with any BS. But it was actual BS, not winking. Her paycheck and mine were similar - She was actually paid more than the business owner.

Because she was worth that to the business. The men she supervised listened to her without question. And she never pulled the woman card.

So yeah, I'm all about equality. But kowtowing to weakness such as third wavers demand must be served is a sure fire path to failure.

There is a difference between equality and equity.

I can only defend my own position or discuss the ideas of third wave feminism in general.

Well then defend. I'm kind of wishing you would. Let's start - should the statutes of limitation and due process be waived, and a man lose his livelihood if he does anything that a woman defines as sexual harassment, including things like winking at her, asking her out on a date?

Should all employees be paid the same based on sex? Should pay based on output be eliminated? Shoulds women get preferential hiring?

Lotta good stuff to debate.

I can't defend or even really speculate about the motives of individuals I don't know and have not met, and with respect about whom I only have your side of the story.

If you want to discuss something like intersectionality or transmisogyny then that's fine, or if you want to identify a specific organization that has some published material (web site, manifesto etc.) so I can at least evaluate them myself then please do.

I recall times posting many links for you. I also recall you telling me you were too busy to look at them.

But general complaints about "third wave feminists have been calling me a racist/sexist for 30 years" isn't really an argument... It's a complaint at best.

Actually, I have had very little problem with being called misogynist by third wavers. There is a lot you can tell about people by simply watching and listening. If somoeone comes in with fire in their eyes, I only need to hear them speak for a while. I was raised by the fire in the eyes crowd. In person, I know when to keep my mouth shut when dealing with people who can harm me if I open it. So left and right wing, when in person, they know me as the quiet guy.

When the slightest disagreement gets you declared as a misogynist and you know you are playing havoc with your career, you tend to practice avoidance rather than debate.

So are you retired, or is Ol Olsoc a pseudonym, or do third wave feminists just not read Slashdot?

I'm retired. My colleagues tell me the situation hasn't improved. But as noted before, I did not debate with them - I only watched what happened to any man who was stupid enough to debate them.

Re:soy boy central

[KingBenny]

when is the set to make it illegal to buy or own dvd's ? i assume that's the next step because that way you could own stuff you buy