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Lawmakers, Lobbyists and the Administration Join Forces To Overhaul the Endangered Species Act (nytimes.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: The Endangered Species Act, which for 45 years has safeguarded fragile wildlife while blocking ranching, logging and oil drilling on protected habitats, is coming under attack from lawmakers, the White House and industry on a scale not seen in decades, driven partly by fears that the Republicans will lose ground in November's midterm elections. In the past two weeks, more than two dozen pieces of legislation, policy initiatives and amendments designed to weaken the law have been either introduced or voted on in Congress or proposed by the Trump administration.

The actions included a bill to strip protections from the gray wolf in Wyoming and along the western Great Lakes; a plan to keep the sage grouse, a chicken-size bird that inhabits millions of oil-rich acres in the West, from being listed as endangered for the next decade; and a measure to remove from the endangered list the American burying beetle, an orange-flecked insect that has long been the bane of oil companies that would like to drill on the land where it lives. [...] The new push to undo the wildlife protection law comes as Republicans control the White House and both chambers of Congress, and is led by a president who has made deregulation -- the loosening of not only environmental protections but banking rules, car fuel efficiency standards and fair housing enforcement -- a centerpiece of his administration.

47 of 296 comments (clear)

  1. Bastards by tsa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stupid Reps. Go find your own planet to destroy, but leave mine alone.

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    -- Cheers!

    1. Re:Bastards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apparently Republicans don't have children and grandchildren, otherwise they would want a planet that supports life.

    2. Re:Bastards by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      To the person that gave me some grief over a joke in another thread. Still think we shouldn't party like its 1789?

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  2. Overhaul is not the word you're looking for by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The word your looking for is "gut".

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  3. They are getting their way at last by AlanObject · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I read this and I just can't forget the Leonard Cohen song:

    Take the only tree that's left. Shove it up the hole in your culture.

    I don't know what else to say, except to point out that when they say "this will create jobs" what it really means is that some large corporate interests will make billions ravaging without any restraint the already-stressed ecosystem and some minor percentage of it will be paid out to workers with the least amount of benefits they can manage and no job security.

    So a beetle is gone. Who cares it was totally totally worth it.

  4. gray wolves? by iggymanz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    conservation status is "least concern" and they're in europe and asia besides the USA.

    great grouse, threatened or near threaten, okay lets watch out for that one.

    but the burying beetle? world can live without it, we have 2 million or maybe 30 million species of bugs in this world, losing that one won't matter (and we're not going to lose it anyway, even with drilling, the land area its on is huge)

    1. Re:gray wolves? by mentil · · Score: 4, Funny

      Burying beetles feast on chaos butterflies. Do you really want to cause tsunamis in the pacific?! Think of the poor Asian children!

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      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:gray wolves? by Frank+Burly · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't remember the particulars of the law, but I can see a case for making the local, rather than global population determinative. For example, if Grey Wolves are occupying keystone spot and killing all of them will give you a rampant deer population, and that will eat all of the rare lilies that some butterfly needs to reproduce . . . and so on. But instead we get lobbyists writing: "Dear Mr. President, there are too many species nowadays. Please allow us to eliminate some via stack ranking to eliminate the least economically valuable."

    3. Re:gray wolves? by habig · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm not familiar with the rest of the list, but in MN and WI, the wolves certainly aren't endangered anymore. The state DNRs and the Federal Fish & Wildlife services have taken them off the list for valid "they're so many of them, we have to manage the population" reasons a couple times now: under Obama's watch, not Trump's. Anti-hunting activists sued to put them back on, over the objections of the experts.

      It's certainly possible that the conservation officers snuck a reasonable, as-requested-by-the-scientists thing into a list of dodgy requests. But that's not the way it's being reported, so it makes me wonder about the rest of the things being complained about.

      Anybody here know the particulars of the other species in the story, or is everyone just going to get wound up to the left or to the right in a partisan tizzy? The article was remarkably free of facts about the animals, just quotes from politicians on both sides

    4. Re:gray wolves? by quantaman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      conservation status is "least concern" and they're in europe and asia besides the USA.

      great grouse, threatened or near threaten, okay lets watch out for that one.

      but the burying beetle? world can live without it, we have 2 million or maybe 30 million species of bugs in this world, losing that one won't matter (and we're not going to lose it anyway, even with drilling, the land area its on is huge)

      Maybe, but you're looking at the most corrupt (and lobbyist riddled) department in one of the most corrupt administrations in US history, and a congress that has been at best enabling, and at worst (healthcare, tax cut) encouraging.

      Are they really the ones you're counting on to make wise decisions about endangered species?

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    5. Re:gray wolves? by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      we have 2 million or maybe 30 million species of bugs in this world, losing that one won't matter

      History is full of examples where causing a single species to become extinct has caused very significant and completely unintended consequences for whole ecosystems.

      Saying that driving a few species into extinction won't cause any problems is like saying that deleting a few lines of code from an application won't cause any problems. Sure, there's a decent size chance you may be fine, but would you actually take the risk?

      --
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    6. Re:gray wolves? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with "what's $species good for" is that we probably don't even know. The Chinese killed off sparrows during the Four Pest Campaigns in what's dubbed the Great Leap Forwards (also known as the Great Leap into a fucking Mess) because they allegedly ate grain and fruits. They did, but what they ate even more were locusts.

      I leave it to the reader to ponder just what the very unintended consequence was.

      You are allowed to learn from the blunders of others. In this case, that eliminating a species without knowing what this entails is stupid.

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    7. Re:gray wolves? by f3rret · · Score: 2
      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    8. Re:gray wolves? by AndrewBuck · · Score: 4, Informative

      This video is probably the one you were thinking of. Very interesting video.:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    9. Re:gray wolves? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      And a multi-well oil platform every few miles doesn't bother the wildlife.

      Until the inevitable spill during transport.

      --
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  5. Re:This is an outrage but ... by DogDude · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm a biology nerd. This is news that matters to me.

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    I don't respond to AC's.
  6. Conservatives.... by meglon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    fucking over this country every chance they get.

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    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
    1. Re:Conservatives.... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now here is the really disturbing part - *their opinions, thoughts, and idea are just as valuable and just as worthwhile as yours*.

      Not if they're factually incorrect.

    2. Re:Conservatives.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hi Mr Brett Buck, I'm not hoping to insult you sufficiently to change your opinion (as another AC has attempted). However, I'd like to point out that this idea that everyone's opinions, thoughts and ideas are equally valuable is bogus. I could say that more forcefully, but all the rude words have already been said.

      There are opinions, thoughts and ideas that contradict known facts. I'm talking about "known facts" as in "physical reality", not just who is winning politics at the moment.

      Those opinions, thoughts and ideas that are known to be bollocks can be listened to, but then the right response is to correct them and move on. It's not the right response to legislate those bollocks ideas into law.

      So, sure, other people exists. But they have some amazingly stupid ideas in their heads. We should fix that rather than just accept them at face value.

    3. Re:Conservatives.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now here is the really disturbing part - *their opinions, thoughts, and idea are just as valuable and just as worthwhile as yours*

      People have an equal right to their opinions, but it does not mean their opinions are equally right. The opinions of a flat earther are not as valuable and worthwhile as those of a cosmologist, for example, with regard to how the universe works, for example.

    4. Re:Conservatives.... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3, Funny

      Still objectively better than flat earther delusions.

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      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    5. Re:Conservatives.... by Freischutz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Low-information democrats have poorly formed thoughts and opinions.

      Yes, but Low-information democrats, by definition of the term 'Low-information democrats', have at least some data to back up what they are saying. While sub-optomal, 'low-information', still compares positively with non-information Republican Trumpkins who operate on 'truthiness', i.e. emotionally generated facts that are not backed up by a shred of empirical data.

  7. of the people, by the people by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Lawmakers, Lobbyists and the Administration Join Forces

    Everything you need to know about the state of the union, right there.

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    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:of the people, by the people by blindseer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lawmakers, Lobbyists and the Administration Join Forces

      Everything you need to know about the state of the union, right there.

      I agree.

      https://www.washingtontimes.co...

      Bald and golden eagles may be legally killed or injured in the thousands by high-speed turbines (reaching speeds up to 170 miles per hour), under new regulations released Wednesday by the Obama administration. The rules, which affect individual wind-energy companies that plan to operate the technology for up to 30 years, allows up to 4,200 of the birds to perish.

      Those evil capitalists just want to have government subsidies to kill endangered species.

      Oh, I've brought up the problems of windmills killing birds before and a common reply is the far greater number of birds killed by domestic cats. If your "domestic cat" is hunting bald eagles then I suspect your "domestic cat" is also on the endangered species list.

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    2. Re:of the people, by the people by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh, I've brought up the problems of windmills killing birds before and a common reply is the far greater number of birds killed by domestic cats. If your "domestic cat" is hunting bald eagles then I suspect your "domestic cat" is also on the endangered species list.

      If you're so bothered by that, then why aren't you more bothered by the gutting of species protection under Trump?

      Or are you just playing games?

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:of the people, by the people by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree.

      Good, then we can also agree to stop the hundreds of millions of birds that are killed by hunters in Texas every year? Not to mention what the metals in the birdshot are doing to the water and land there.

      See? We're finding common ground left and right today!

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:of the people, by the people by q_e_t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many eagles have actually been killed by wind turbines as compared to pollution, or even in total? It may be an unfortunate, but acceptable, trade off if renewables lead to less overall damage, and assuming we don't want to go back to living in huts. Wind farms are subject to approvals, which take into account potential damage that may be done. If you look at the numbers, and we assume that about 50% of those killed are bald eagles then that's about 0.1% of the bald eagle population being killed by wind turbines per year - not very significant. The population decreased dramatically in the 150 years before 1918, from habitat loss and other factors. Wind turbines are an insignificant risk to bald eagles overall, even if each loss of such a majestic bird is a tragedy.

    5. Re:of the people, by the people by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

      Good, then we can also agree to stop the hundreds of millions of birds that are killed by hunters in Texas every year?

      I am compelled to point out that it was a conservative - Dick Cheney - who tried to solve this very problem by shooting his bird-hunting friend in the face.

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      #DeleteChrome
    6. Re:of the people, by the people by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is a common error in reasoning I see, typically among animal rights advocates. Concentrating on the number of deaths, rather than the effect of the deaths. From the standpoint of survival of the species, the fate of an individual bird does not matter. The only thing that matters is if the number of birds killed is sustainable. That is, is the overall population declining? Or is it remaining steady or increasing? As long as the overall population is not declining, it does not matter if hundreds of millions of individual birds are killed. The take is sustainable, and the species is not at risk.

      Mathematically, it's the first derivative of the species' population which is most important from a conservation standpoint. To a second order, the current population compared to historical population levels can be considered, although that gets clouded by things like changes in the environment and amount of available habitat as compared to decades ago. Unless the population is extremely low (like only in the hundreds), the fate of any individual member of the species is fairly irrelevant to the goal of preserving the species.

      So the number you should be most concerned with is the rate at which the species' population is declining, not the number of individuals killed. You see, nearly every animal in the wild is killed. Dying of old age is something only commonly experienced by humans and the domesticated animals we protect. The vast majority of wild animals live short lives before they're snuffed out in an often gruesome death caused by another animal. Whether that animal happens to be a human using his hands, or a wild animal using claws and teeth is irrelevant (other than how it improves the sustainability of that animal's population)..

    7. Re:of the people, by the people by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Funny

      I think the best bit was the apology he issued: "sorry you shot me in the face".

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      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    8. Re:of the people, by the people by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Only in America is it illegal to put lead in our electronics, which when disposed will likely end up going to China for "recycling", but when it comes to guns, we'll happily skip the middleman and dump lead pellets directly into our own backyard.

      In America, we allow MAGA hat-wearing goofballs on psychoactive meds to dump lead directly into our schoolchildren, because some 18th century amendment said well-regulated militias should be armed.

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
  8. Re:Jobs in the US again by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

    "craftsmen and artisans" who work with rare woods is not even a rounding error, either in jobs, exports or anything else. Esp. not in first-world countries.

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  9. Shoot and Shovel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As written, the current endangered species laws promote "shoot and shovel" over actually protecting endangered species. Assume a farmer runs a family farm that has been in the family for generations and finds out that some endangered species of minnow is living in the pond that has been used to irrigate this farm for 100+ years. If a wildlife official ever learned of that minnow in that pond that farm is history since they will no longer be allowed to operate in any way that could endanger the lives of a handful of small fish. The farmer has every incentive to kill those fish as soon as possible before anyone else learns of their existence.

    Or assume you own a few acres of woodland next to a thriving suburb and are going to subdivide it and build a small housing development. Partway through the process of clearing the land and paving sidewalks and cul-de-sacs you discover owl pellets from an endangered owl species you've never heard of. If the wildlife officials learn of this bird nest you're done with your development project and are out the tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars you've already spent. If that nest were to disappear before anyone official learns of its existence you're free to build and sell the 20 houses you originally planned.

    1. Re:Shoot and Shovel by Gilgaron · · Score: 2

      It does seem like it might be better to set aside some funds to compensate land owners impacted by protecting species, we subsidize farming is so many other ways you could probably wrap it into those bills.

  10. Good! Partially, at least... by Kokuyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You people seem to assume that this act's list of endangered species actually is built upon sound science.

    So a review of this is certainly a good idea.

    That being said, we all know what interests drive this so I don't expect a sensible outcome either...

    1. Re:Good! Partially, at least... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This isn't a review. This is targeted specific species and areas that have been under attack by Oil and Ranch lobbyists for a decade (or more in some cases like the gray wolf.) This isn't some 'oh the data has changed, lets keep up' - which happens every day, all year long as field workers count the species and sightings and make esitmates.

      This is a sell out of your and your children's potential legacy to a short term profit so a few guys can get rich and say 'hey we brought 200 jobs into an area and only destroyed 10 species in the process!'.

  11. Re:Legalize poaching to protect endangered species by Nocturna81 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, that's why the northern white rhino has been hunted to near extinction? As a recent example....

  12. Re:Legalize poaching to protect endangered species by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actual extinction, I think you'll find.

    (technically there's two left but they're both females so extinction is now guaranteed).

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  13. Re:Brace yourself by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Species will now be not endangered or already extinct. Finding a specimen of a species that's defined as extinct is a temporary statistical error.

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  14. Re:Legalize poaching to protect endangered species by Stephan+Schulz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    HOWEVER, from a purely ECONOMIC perspective, privatization and the legalization of trophy hunting does MORE to protect endangered species than the current laws.

    This is an old claim by libertarians, but it fails as soon as it contacts reality. First, it only can work for animals that have a direct local economic benefit. It does nothing to protect something like the American burying beetle mentioned in the article. Secondly, while there may be mechanisms of self-interest that coincide with protecting animals if they are all privately owned, those very same mechanisms also hold for companies - and yet, a large number of private companies fail every year.

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    Stephan

  15. Re:Legalize poaching to protect endangered species by houghi · · Score: 2, Funny

    They said that before, but nature finds a way.

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  16. Re: Legalize poaching to protect endangered specie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Except when it didn't for all those species that died off.

  17. Re:Legalize poaching to protect endangered species by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the result of poachers.

    Not Dentists paying $50k for a Trophy Hunt.

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    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  18. Re: Legalize poaching to protect endangered speci by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If the species commits suicide by anthropomorphic climate change, while all the while waging war when the commandment was given "Thou shalt not kill" and when Jesus said "let ye who has not sinned cast the first stone" when questioned on punishment, how can anyone have faith they are going to heaven?. Because that whore was admonished "go and sin no more." Yet those who claim allegiance to the faiths cannot seem to comprehend their corruption of justice. While there isn't peace no one's getting saved and real people will continue to burn in fire. Logic does not seem to be religions strong point.

  19. Re:This is an outrage but ... by Powercntrl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because "everything is political" and /. editors are pushing left-wing politics all the time.

    This is a science and technology oriented website. The current Republican party has been pushing many anti-science and anti-environmentalism agendas. Perhaps you should stick with Faux News, if all you want to hear is how killing off the last of a species is going to create tons of jobs and put 'merica back on the path to WINNING.

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  20. Re:Legalize poaching to protect endangered species by painandgreed · · Score: 2

    This is the result of poachers.

    Not Dentists paying $50k for a Trophy Hunt.

    Indeed. I believe BBC did a study after some outrage issue and found that much of the conservation money comes from those dentists and other great white hunters. Also, that $50k is just for the license for that one animal. That doesn't include all the other costs the host country typically requires like hiring guides, rangers, gun holders, etc. Even then, the creatures they hunt are usually the ones that need to be culled anyway.

  21. Re:This is an outrage but ... by ebvwfbw · · Score: 2

    I'm a biology nerd. This is news that matters to me.

    Good. So talk about it. Talk about how Greenpeace pulls bullshit to put things on the endangered list by looking for animals where they don't go because of altitude or other factors. Talk about the abuses of the other "environmentalist" groups that are just out there to make money for themselves by duping stupid California people.

    Now let's talk about how the last administration would fine oil companies for killed eagles, yet not a dime for a fine if a windmill killed an eagle or anything else.

    (Sound of impatient foot taping)