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About Half of Google's Workers Are Contractors Who Don't Receive the Same Benefits as Direct Employees (bloomberg.com)

Every day, tens of thousands of people stream into Google offices wearing red name badges. They eat in Google's cafeterias, ride its commuter shuttles and work alongside its celebrated geeks. But they can't access all of the company's celebrated perks. They aren't entitled to stock and can't enter certain offices. Many don't have health insurance. Bloomberg: Before each weekly Google all-hands meeting, trays of hors d'oeuvres and, sometimes, kegs of beer are carted into an auditorium and satellite offices around the globe for employees, who wear white badges. Those without white badges are asked to return to their desks. Google's Alphabet employs hordes of these red-badged contract workers in addition to its full-fledged staff. They serve meals and clean offices. They write code, handle sales calls, recruit staff, screen YouTube videos, test self-driving cars and even manage entire teams -- a sea of skilled laborers that fuel the $795 billion company but reap few of the benefits and opportunities available to direct employees.

Earlier this year, those contractors outnumbered direct employees for the first time in the company's twenty-year history, according to a person who viewed the numbers on an internal company database. It's unclear if that is still the case. Alphabet reported 89,058 direct employees at the end of the second quarter. The company declined to comment on the number of contract workers.

99 of 192 comments (clear)

  1. So what?? by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have been a contractor myself for many years, sometimes in huge groups of other contractors working for companies with employees.

    I have also been on the other side, working for companies as an employee in teams that worked alongside large teams of contractors...

    I think it should say a lot as to which situation is better that I have ended up working as a contractor for years instead of working as an FTE. If for no other reason than, overtime work really loses the sting when you are paid hourly...

    Yes I lack some "benefits" a company might offer but I get more freedom in how to make up those "benefits". Because I work on contract I can take more vacation time than almost any company would allow. Because I work contract I can choose health care options that make sense to me and stick with them rather than being shifted around in changing company plans. And It's also lots easier to untangle myself from a bad contract than a bad employer... not to mention being more free to speak my mind since as a contractor I am generally free of politics (though on larger team of contractors that still can be a factor, but not as much as it is for employees).

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:So what?? by 110010001000 · · Score: 5, Funny

      But you wear a different colored badge.

    2. Re:So what?? by Gilgaron · · Score: 3, Informative

      Some places use contract hiring for entry level positions to essentially avoid paying benefits to otherwise full time staff. At a laboratory with lots of 'early career' scientists I worked at, the contracts weren't even uniform; if you knew somebody that needed a job you wanted to refer them to the 'good' contracting agency, as if you referred them directly to management they'd bring them in through the 'bad' contracting agency that had crappier terms, no PTO, etc. It is different than in software where the contractors are short term and set contracts favorable to them.

    3. Re:So what?? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Informative

      The thing is, there is a fine line between being a genuine contractor, and being an off-the-books "employee".

      And Google could get in a lot of trouble if they turn out to be the latter.

      The problem is that though the line is, fine, it is not fixed. It is generally determined on a case-by-case basis. In order to be a contractor:

      * You are expected to know how to do your job. If it's something you have to be taught to do (more than a bit of reasonable orientation), you're probably an employee.

      * You are expected to set your own hours. If you have to be there 9 to 5, or punch a time clock, or fill out a time card, you're probably an employee, not a contractor.

      * You negotiate your own rates.

      There are a few others. These rules are enforced by the IRS and a few other Federal agencies, but mainly the IRS.

      IBM and rather famously Microsoft were both busted for having "off-the-books employees" which they called contractors. It cost them big.

      Don't get stuck being an off-the-books employee. If you are, the company probably owes you back benefits.

      And setting your own hours is not enough. You must have control over them. Even simply reporting the hours you worked to a client, in some circumstances, can be considered prima facie evidence of your status as an employee.

    4. Re:So what?? by demon+driver · · Score: 1

      You make it sound like overtime was a thing everyone should be asking for.

    5. Re:So what?? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      LMOL yeah ok Potsy, straight out of the Simpson's Episode “Kiss Kiss, Bang Bangalore" - Out sourcing save me...

    6. Re:So what?? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Here's a question: do they have healthcare or not?

      Corp-to-corp contractors should get healthcare from their contracting corporation. Self-employed contractors...it must be a nightmare to manage that many contracts, holy crap.

    7. Re:So what?? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      LOL Ummm no Potsy you are not getting paid a premium. If it costs more to pay a contractor you are not saving money. And yes Virginia that include benefits.

    8. Re:So what?? by r1348 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      To be honest, I'm one of those red badges, about to transition to FTE in a different .
      I work in a relatively small office (around 300 people) so I can't really say about behemoths like Mountain View or Dublin, but in the day-to-day operations red badges are not much different than white ones. You still get invited to events and initiatives, you have lunch with whoever pleases you independently of badge color, and while it's true that you don't get full FTE benefits, that's simply because you're hired by a different company (I work for an actual company selling a service to Google, not a mere intermediary like Adecco). Health insurance is a very American concern, I live in a country with universal health care so the impact on the whole benefit package is much smaller.
      It still allows you to enter in a big corporate environment and puts you in the radar for other big companies (that's exactly what happened to me, I didn't apply for my new position, I was proposed it).

    9. Re:So what?? by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      I really regret contract work not being talked about when I was still a college student. I had never considered it versus a full time position.

      After starting to use recruiters to find work I ended up doing a couple of contract to hire deals. I had no idea it was so nice! I bill hourly and get paid weekly. I get to deduct business expenses and have control over my benefits. If I want to take a month-long vacation at the end of a contract I can do so. I have someone to represent and advise me; it's really nice to have a proxy doing the negotiating for you.

      If you do it right contract work can be a pretty sweet deal.

    10. Re:So what?? by ebh · · Score: 1

      If you're a full-time employee of a contract house, you probably *can* get health insurance, but it won't be anything like what a large company (like the client) would offer. Until my wife went back to work full-time for a company with great benefits, we had my contract house's insurance, which cost us enough that we qualified for a medical expense deduction on our taxes every year.

    11. Re:So what?? by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Yeah well certain Silicon valley companies (make i products) pay contractors only for 40 hrs irrespective of whether they are working 60 hr weeks and taking calls with offshore at night. The contractors all hope to become FTEs and get their own chance at exploiting contractors.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    12. Re:So what?? by ghoul · · Score: 2

      In software too companies like Google , Apple etc use Contracting as a filter. You cant always tell in a 30 minute interview if the person is a good fit but once you have them as a contractor for a year you can very confidently recommend them for a FT position. And if not getting rid of a contractor is as easy as not renewing a contract. No action needed.
      There is also the fact that some companies have taken a conscious decision to have a certain FTE-Contractor ratio. That way if times turn bad they dont have to do layoffs - just not renew contracts. Layoffs are bad PR while contract non renewal is a non issue. As a result many times they may have a Contract req in their budget but no fulltime req. In such a case if they find someone good they ask the contractor vendor manager to bring the person in as a contractor with the understanding that when a FT req opens up they will convert him/her
      The contracting company is happy to oblige as they get some revenue.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    13. Re:So what?? by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Apple's got colored badge for FT and Gray badges for contractors. Its not just Google.
      Funny thin the high schooler at a Genius bar is a FT and can get Apple products at a discount but the 10 yr Machine learning architect driving the architecture of iTunes is a Grey badge and needs to pay full price for Apple products. (Contractors have their own way of getting back. They flaunt their Samsung phones inside Apple buildings. iPhone X has finally caught with Android by getting rid of the hardware home button so now some folks may finally get an iPhone)

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    14. Re:So what?? by ghoul · · Score: 1

      I work for a contract house. Difference is I have a 25 dollar copay. The FTEs where I work have a 5 dollar copay. Both have same yearly caps and the FTEs get egg freezing covered. As a guy with 2 kids the egg freezing benefit is not really that big a difference.
      The point is many contract houses have good health insurance.

      On the other hand when in a design discussion I make a point , people listen as I am not a threat to their career or their budget unlike the other FTEs.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    15. Re:So what?? by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      Still no back button though. Theoretically every app should have one on the top left, but in practice they don't. Plus it's much harder to reach than Android's.

    16. Re:So what?? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I've seen FTEs with shit insurance, too. I've seen full-time positions with crap like Aflac before the ACA.

    17. Re:So what?? by thomn8r · · Score: 2
      You make it sound like overtime was a thing everyone should be asking for.

      I've been a contractor for about 30% of my IT career. Your employer has much more respect for your time when you're a contractor than when you're an FTE. When it costs them $200/hr, they're not quite so glib with the "Um yeah, I'm gonna need you to come in on Saturday..."

  2. Industry Wide by darkain · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't a "Google" problem, this is an industry-wide problem. What larger tech company ISNT doing this?

    1. Re:Industry Wide by kiminator · · Score: 1

      Yup. I think it's due to the fact that regulations are much looser for contractors. If you have a company that has a mix of high-wage and low-wage jobs, chances are the high-wage jobs will be mostly filled with full-time employees and the low-wage jobs will mostly be filled by contractors. It sets up a pretty disgusting class segregation. I really think the only way to deal with it is to solve it at the regulatory level, to ensure that contractors have the same protections as full-time employees, and by reducing inequality.

      Contracting might still be reasonable in situations where the number of employees needed is expected to fluctuate fairly rapidly, but having contractors be expected to accept second-class pay and benefits just means that more and more work will shift to contract work unless the employees are in such high demand that the company would lose workers if they tried it.

    2. Re:Industry Wide by PPH · · Score: 1

      This is an experience and skill problem. People new in the job market have fewer skills and experience. A position as an employee is better for them. Once you become known in your industry for your skills and people seek you out specifically, being a contractor is much better.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Industry Wide by damn_registrars · · Score: 2

      And when you were working as a contractor you benefited from living in a country with single-payer health care, which is not a benefit that workers in the USA can enjoy. You had health care automatically taken care of for you (by way of taxes that you paid on your wages regardless of how many hours you worked) while in the USA most workers encounter significant obstacles to buying health care unless they work at least 40 hours per week. Couple that to the fact that American workers are now legally obligated to carry insurance and you see one of the problems that exist in this country to those who might want to try to be contractors without full time employers.

      In other words, the government - that you so love to tell us how much you hate - made it possible for you to do that.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  3. Re:Not surprising by Stolovaya · · Score: 1

    Their only responsibility is to the shareholders.

    [citation needed]

  4. Re:Not surprising by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    No, they also have a responsibility to obey Federal labor laws.

  5. Many don't have health insurance ??? by magarity · · Score: 2

    Then they are in violation of the Affordable Care Act which requires everyone to purchase insurance or sign up for Medicare otherwise they face IRS fines.

    1. Re:Many don't have health insurance ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't have health insurance provided by Google. That doesn't mean they don't have health insurance. If they are a W2 employee of a contracting firm, they likely have health insurance through them. If they're a pure 1099 self employed contractor, that's on you, you work for yourself officially.

    2. Re:Many don't have health insurance ??? by magarity · · Score: 1

      Well.. that USED to be true. These days the fine has been reduced to zero by the current administration has it not?

      The tax bill passed by Congress effectively removed the personal mandate but that isn't until next year, meanwhile it is still required.

    3. Re:Many don't have health insurance ??? by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Only companies with more than 50 employees are mandated to provide health insurance. Many contracting firms are mom and pop. They dont even have to pay the Employee part of social security (Well they do but they dont and by the time an IRS audit comes around the company will be dissolved and operating under another EIN)

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    4. Re:Many don't have health insurance ??? by terrycarlino · · Score: 1

      The only way the IRS is allowed to collect any fine for not having health insurance is to take it from your tax refund. If you have no refund they don't get s**t. They've been given no money fro enforcement, and as someone else posted starting next year the mandate has been revoked.

  6. Re:Not surprising by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Oops. That was supposed to be a reply to parent.

  7. Re: So? by nnull · · Score: 1

    Most people getting into these gigs don't understand this and undershoot their worth, which these companies abuse to hell.

  8. Re:... and? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    Has reading comprehension failed the anonymous troll farms? I guess so since they can't grasp the basic concept. Over half of Google's skilled labor are contractors. Google the progressive, social justice, do no evil company has decided to not pay people by simply hiring contractors.

    They have the money but lets go with slave labor.

    Next some moron will defend Nestle for actually using slaves to produce cocoa. Ass holes.

  9. That works great while your health holds out by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and while there is still legal protections for pre-existing conditions. "Benefits" in America usually means health benefits. Everything else is nice but secondary.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  10. What company isn't doing this? by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    this is Uber & Lyft's entire business model (albeit taken to the extreme). Companies have broken the social contract. There's no longer any stability for workers. That plus the death of Unions and the end of collective bargaining is why wages are declining even though productivity is way, way up.

    Time for a New New Deal.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:What company isn't doing this? by lgw · · Score: 1

      That plus the death of Unions and the end of collective bargaining is why wages are declining even though productivity is way, way up.

      Thing is, all this shit changed in the 70s. It's not a recent change. And yet our standard of living went up very nicely from the 70s through around 2000. It's not obvious what changed, though political corruption has been getting worse since the 90s. Perhaps it passed some tipping point: the Bush/Obama bank "bailout" was the single largest looting of the treasury in US history, perhaps worse than all previous corruption combined. But that was many years after the change in ~2000.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:What company isn't doing this? by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      Thing is, all this shit changed in the 70s. It's not a recent change. And yet our standard of living went up very nicely from the 70s through around 2000. It's not obvious what changed, though political corruption has been getting worse since the 90s. Perhaps it passed some tipping point: the Bush/Obama bank "bailout" was the single largest looting of the treasury in US history, perhaps worse than all previous corruption combined. But that was many years after the change in ~2000.

      The standard of living did not go up from the 70s-2000s. As the previous poster noted productivity went up but wages didn't. I'd *love* to go back in time and work in the 70s or 80s. I'd be making a lot more and housing would be far cheaper.

    3. Re:What company isn't doing this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Wages have not risen as much as expected" is not at all the same as "the standard of living has not risen".
      Improved capabilities and lowered costs for computers, personal electronics, and telecommunications features are huge examples of increases in the standard of living. In the 1970s, there was NO amount of money that could get you a smartphone.
      The richest people in the world died of diseases you don't seriously think about.
      You travel faster, safer, and cheaper than the anyone in those days did.
      Your entertainment options - TV, video games, movies, radio, plays and performances - were all more limited and more expensive.
      Violence was MUCH higher than today - New York's murder rate during those decades was 5-8 times higher than today. General crime was 50%-100% higher in most places.
      Racial violence was common, and discrimination still widely practiced.

      There are very, very few ways that the modern era is worse than the 1970s or 1980s. The ability of the ignorant and stupid to speak out may be one of them.

    4. Re: What company isn't doing this? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Somehow people have forgotten about the bank bailout.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:What company isn't doing this? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Then don't whine when the workers put the management in gulags and the executives to the guillotine.

    6. Re:What company isn't doing this? by lgw · · Score: 1

      He can afford a house of the quality that the guy in the 60s could afford: a tiny 2-bedroom track house with no AC (and no appliances). You can't ignore technology - people have just decided they prefer to spend on the big screen with PS4 and lots of other tech and bling over the house. Fair enough.

      And you have savings if you want to have savings, though you might not also have the TV and PS4. The Silent Generation were raised to save above all else, as their parents lived through the great depression, so they had savings. I didn't get that religion until 30, but I started living on half my take-home pay at that point - just a matter of what you sacrifice for higher priorities.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re:What company isn't doing this? by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      "Wages have not risen as much as expected" is not at all the same as "the standard of living has not risen". Improved capabilities and lowered costs for computers, personal electronics, and telecommunications features are huge examples of increases in the standard of living.

      So how is life working for the Feds and finding ever new ways to try and convince the people that they are really getting ahead when it's obvious that they aren't? Hey cars, housing, and college costs doubled but congratulations - you get a larger TV at a lower price. That's surely a fair trade right?

      In the 1970s, there was NO amount of money that could get you a smartphone.

      I guess for some that would be a deal breaker. If you have much of a *real life* in the *real world* you will be fine.

      The richest people in the world died of diseases you don't seriously think about.

      Like heart disease and cancer? Those are still the main killers. Medical advances have been huge in diagnostics and limited elsewhere.

      You travel faster, safer, and cheaper than the anyone in those days did.

      Congratulations, you finally scored a point. You are correct that safety has improved.

      Your entertainment options - TV, video games, movies, radio, plays and performances - were all more limited and more expensive.

      Back to the question of where do you spend your time? In the real world doing real things or like a vidiot.

      Violence was MUCH higher than today - New York's murder rate during those decades was 5-8 times higher than today. General crime was 50%-100% higher in most places.

      It was higher then lower and now it's rising again. Hard to say where this one lands. Plus the violence has shifted. Bullying seems to be a bigger problem now for example.

      Racial violence was common, and discrimination still widely practiced.

      Some things never change, though now we have more discrimination against whites and Asians, I guess you call that progress.

      There are very, very few ways that the modern era is worse than the 1970s or 1980s. The ability of the ignorant and stupid to speak out may be one of them.

      If anything the modern world allows the ignorant to speak out far more, another loss for your position. Overall neither is better in all categories but when you look at the situation overall I'd take the 70s in a heartbeat.

  11. diversity contractors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe I missed it in TFA, but I don't think that Google applies the same diversity requirements when hiring its contract employees as it does its permanent ones. I wonder what its employee demographics would show if they included contract workers into the total labor force.

    1. Re:diversity contractors by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Most contractors are visa employees. The contracting firms do their visas and Green cards. Once they have green cards Apple and Google hire them as employees. This way their statistics on visa employees vs non visa employees look good (GCs and citizens are counted in the same bucket)

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  12. Re:Not surprising by ArhcAngel · · Score: 2

    they also have a responsibility to obey Federal labor laws

    And they do...right down to the letter of the law. Which allows them to hire contract labor for a temporary position for a period of up to one year. So about the 350th day of their contract (which also coincides with Christmas break in many cases) the position is eliminated and the contractor let go. Seven days later a new position with the same responsibilities is created and the contractor is offered a NEW position for another 350 days. Numerous tech companies (as well as many other industries) employ this practice.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  13. Re: Sounds familiar... by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

    There are plenty of places that use contract agencies to hire on-site, full time âoeemployeesâ that are functionally identical in every way except they (or their agency) are responsible for taxes, insurance, and other benefits. This can also extend towards creating a second class citizen system where said contractors despite being with the same company for many years will be excluded from free or reduced price lunches, snacks, drinks, activities or even having their display names on emails, chats, or whatever else saying (Contractor) at the end. This is offset by said contractors receiving higher base salaries than they could if they were direct employees.

    --
    Thirty four characters live here.
  14. Re:Not surprising by layabout · · Score: 1

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfo...

    FTA: The leading statement of the law's view on corporate social responsibility goes back to Dodge v. Ford Motor Co, a 1919 decision that held that "a business corporation is organized and carried on primarily for the profit of the stockholders." That case — in which Henry Ford was challenged by shareholders when he tried to reduce car prices at their expense — also established that "it is not within the lawful powers of a board of directors to shape and conduct the affairs of a corporation for the merely incidental benefit of shareholders and for the primary purpose of benefiting others."

    Despite contrary claims by some academics and Occupy Wall Street-type partisans, this remains the law today. A 2010 decision, for example, eBay Domestic Holdings Inc. v. Newmark, held that corporate directors are bound by "fiduciary duties and standards" which include "acting to promote the value of the corporation for the benefit of its stockholders."

  15. DUH by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    You're surprised? How do you think Walmart, Amazon, Google etc, make so much money?

  16. Re:Not surprising by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    No, they also have a responsibility to obey Federal labor laws.

    It's quite possible they likely are, otherwise, we'd have heard about it.

    I see these articles all the time now and somehow, people think it is inherently BAD to be a contractor for some reason.

    It is not.

    There are many out there, that make a comfortable living contracting. It can be VERY lucrative. But you have to put your big boy pants on, know how to calculate your bill rate, so that you cover insurance, time off, retirement, taxes...etc.

    But it isn't rocket surgery, and if you are going to contract, well, you have to be prepared to decline some jobs, as that they may not be worth your time.

    No one holds a gun to your head forcing you to take a gig.

    Contracting isn't for everyone, hence, W2 jobs are great for many if not most people who don't want the extra responsibilties. But it is not a bad thing if others want to do this.

    I'm not sure where this new groupthink that contracting is evil and should be done away with came from? In the past, it was the govt that didn't seem to like it, as that they didn't get their tax money straight off the top immediately...but now, we have the general public starting to try to tear down what has been a good thing for MANY people.

    If there's one thing I have liked about contracting...it is that I don't have to "earn hours" for vacation or sick time. It is built into my bill rate. I tell them I'm taking off....and I do.

    There is more responsibility you have to take as a contractor, but it does offer you a bit more freedom.

    And one last time....often if there is overtime to be had, they'll hit the W2 employees first, who get salary and no OT...if they want the contractor there, they have to pay. You may not get paid when you're not working, but you get paid EVERY hour you do work and often that makes them think twice whether they really need you that weekend or not...

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  17. Re: Sounds familiar... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

    This can also extend towards creating a second class citizen system where said contractors despite being with the same company for many years will be excluded from free or reduced price lunches, snacks, drinks, activities or even having their display names on emails, chats, or whatever else saying (Contractor) at the end. This is offset by said contractors receiving higher base salaries than they could if they were direct employees.

    Yep.

    Frankly, I'll take the extra $$$ over a free coke any day of the week.

    I work for one thing...to earn money. Period.

    If I didn't have to make money, say if I won the lottery, I'd not be wasting my life on a job working, I'd be out having fun doing what "I" want to do.

    It is quite rare that people get paid to do exactly what they want to do, when and where they want to do it, fact of life.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  18. Re:Not surprising by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1
    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  19. if they are working 29+ hours health insurance law by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    if they are working 29+ hours health insurance is buy law unless they are 1099's but the IRS may not see it that way. even more so if they told to be at desk at X time.

  20. Re: So? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    Most people getting into these gigs don't understand this and undershoot their worth, which these companies abuse to hell.

    If you are a grown adult, over age 18yrs...you need to grow up and be responsible and learn how the world works and what your worth is, etc.

    No one is there to take care of this for you....it is up to the individual to learn how to take care of themselves.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  21. Re:Not surprising by lgw · · Score: 2

    You're talking about a different kind of "contractor". These aren't the kind that set their own billing rate - they're the kind that work for a contracting company for peanuts (aka outsourcing). They're W2 employees of the actual contractor.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  22. Re:Not surprising by lgw · · Score: 2

    That's not strictly true, as the corporate charter can spell out other priorities. But the board has to follow whatever that is (and by default it' the financial interest of the shareholders). You can, however, have a corporation where being "green" or "socially responsible" is a priority, as long as that's public before anyone buys stock. You just have to be clear about what "benefit of the stockholders" will mean, if it's not just money. Almost no one does that, of course.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  23. Re:Not surprising by Stolovaya · · Score: 2

    Of course, then there's this:

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

    FTA: "To quote the U.S. Supreme Court opinion in the recent Hobby Lobby case: “Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not.”"

  24. Don't do that by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    See, those contracting companies will lure you in with seemingly great rates.

    I contract for myself.

    When working as a subcontractor, I've worked through small to medium size consulting firms - but still under my own company, not theirs.

    I should have mentioned, but basically, do not contract for the giant firms. The rates they give are terrible, and they treat you worse.

    I assure you, working independently you can make more. than you would working at a company, even after factoring in taxes and paying for your own benefits. But even if not the freedom can be worth it, or the chance to work on more interesting things as an expert helping bring some product to life... sometimes I've taken a lower rate for very small company just because I like a project.

    All the contracts I have taken I have them generally pay every two to four weeks. That's worked out fine.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  25. Exactly. Can'te selfish. Most common purpose is by raymorris · · Score: 1

    This rule is so often spun, to the point it's almost unrecognizable. People say all kinds of things that just aren't true. It's really not difficult, either. Very simply:

    The officers of a company (CEO etc) don't own the company. They work for the people who own the company, mostly people with retirement funds that have the stock. Therefore, the CEO isn't allowed to give himself or his wife money out of the company bank account. Rather, he must use company assets to do things that the shareholders (retirement savers) would want him to do. It's their money, he has to use it the they would want it used. That simple.

    There is nothing in Apple's charter about being environmentally friendly, and there doesn't need to be. If most stockholders would want them to do X thing that's good for the environment, they should do it. What they can't do is pay the CEO's cousin $10,000/hour to install solar panels.

    In times past, the corporate charter and bylaws often indicated what the corporation was intended to do. For a corporation I sold a few years ago, an old-fashioned charter would have said the purpose of the corporation was to do three things, in this order:
    Provide jobs for people who had lost them when another company shut down
    Provide best in class security solutions for web businesses
    Potentially turn a profit

    Nowadays, the charter or articles of incorporation frequently says "conduct business and other lawful activities" because that gives them maximum flexibility.

    Here's one that surprises a lot of people, but it's absolutely true. If you think about it for a few minutes, you can probably figure out why:

    The purpose for which most corporations are created is to provide jobs, to hire people.

    I didn't say that's a common side effect, I said that's the purpose. It's what the shareholders want the corporation to do, as its first priority. I know some readers are about to angrily click the reply button, but think a moment first. That's a fact. You can figure out the details yourself, or you can post an angry reply and then look silly when I explain the details to you.

    1. Re:Exactly. Can'te selfish. Most common purpose is by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Having been under SEC laws in a publicly traded US corp as an officer, much of what you cite is correct, but there are a few errors.

      There is a wide variance in charters, state laws, and how US Federal Law is applied, then there's the IRS, and other taxing jurisdictions.

      The stockholders own the company, and their directives to for-profit entities is to make profit. The onus is huge, and in some exec's minds, all-important. Laws are skirted, rules bent, policies defended, and much more, all in the quest to optimize returns and longevity.

      This becomes more complex when publicly traded. The SEC and securities law + securities litigation comes into play. But the purpose of most corporations IS NOT TO EMPLOY PEOPLE, and HR/ER departments maximize the mix that management wants, and keeping personnel counts down is a desired common characteristic among for-profits. Other Co-ops, partnerships, NGOs, NFPs, etc have different motives (more often than not). But a for-profit corp is FOR PROFIT, not necessarily legally employed W2 humans.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  26. I would suicide without contracting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm a contractor.

    I would f*cking die if I had to have a permanent job.

    I work for three months and then take the rest of the year off.

    The idea of going into a job, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year - UNTIL YOU ARE OLD AND YOU NEVER LIVED JUST WORKED THEN YOU DIE -

    Who the hell wrote this article *complaining* about contracting?

    If they want to work full time for their entire lives, go right ahead.

    Don't fuck it up for the rest of us.

  27. The fine's a couple of grand by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    healthcare on your own costs thousands. So they're mostly young, healthy people hoping they don't get sick. Most won't. A few will and they'll be screwed. As an added bonus this is an easy and effective way to do age discrimination.

    Of course, that completely screws up the insurance pool. That's why folks like Bernie Sanders have been pushing for the biggest possible pool: everyone. Aka Medicare for all aka Single Payer.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:The fine's a couple of grand by PPH · · Score: 1

      healthcare on your own costs thousands

      Per what time period? I'm a geezer and my private insurance is much less than a thousand per month.

      But then it depends on which group you are a member of. When I left Boeing (laid off), they offered me their insurance plan through COBRA. It turns out that the working population at Boeing is so old (and sick) that their group plan was a few hundred dollars a month MORE than the same benefit package bought privately.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  28. It gets worse by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Funny

    The article forgot to mention the worst part of these contractors' jobs:

    The team members with red badges who beam down to uncharted planets rarely make it back alive.

  29. Opposite by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    You make it sound like overtime was a thing everyone should be asking for.

    I'm really more saying that in software work It is inevitable, contractor or not.

    Being a contractor though means at least there is some reward for the loss of personal time.

    I personally would rather have more time than money. But more money and less time is still preferable to me than less money AND less time - and more money is always transferrable to more time as a contractor at some point as you can reduce your hourly load for a while to make up for the time you lost, without financial penalty because you were paid extra for the extra hours.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  30. Re: Sounds familiar... by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Well unless you're literally saving lives or something it's pretty obvious both employees and contractors are in it for the paycheck. That doesn't mean I'd do anything for "extra $$$", it's the total package of work content, working conditions, colleagues, management, job security, perks and so on. And other things like the commute that doesn't really change with employment status but might mean you'd like to stay where you are. I'm not in the best paid job I could be, but I'd probably come home more tired, stressed, miserable or with some other ailment that you can't so easily fix with money.

    P.S. I actually like company events. Unless you're all work all the time you've probably done a lot of ice breaking chit-chatting in between meetings, coffee breaks, lunch breaks and whatnot. Unless you're really generally miserable around other people there's usually some like-minded people to hang out with or get to know better. Though I've never held it against anyone if they don't want to, if your social calendar is full or you'd rather get home to your WoW raid that's cool. If it becomes mandatory team building sessions, go fish.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  31. The old Microsoft "Permatemp" problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Google is repeating Microsoft's history.
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/06/30/ms_casts_its_permatemps_into/
    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft/microsoft-tries-to-reassure-contractors-about-rule-changes/
    https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-permatemp-checks-finally-arrive/

  32. Re:Not surprising by networkBoy · · Score: 1

    Intel even made an end-run around that caveat. They hire contractors through a third party (Kelly services) and they people are Kelly employees doing work for Intel. Unlimited contract duration, second class citizen status. Further it all but eliminated the one drive for managers to actually hire good people as GFT, because now there's no limit on contract duration, there's no worry that the person will go somewhere else on their next contract.

    --
    whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  33. Welcome the low lower class by Space+Grrrl · · Score: 1

    This is the case at all the big tech companies I've seen. I've been stuck in the contractor grind for some time. Some folks seem to like it, I do not. You are treated as a lower class everywhere I've been, you won't be at moral events, you won't get stock, most companies are requiring the hiring agencies that place you to provide some health care and some PTO but it won't be at parity with a "true" employee. You usually will get paid less in the end and at many companies you have a "sell by" date that forces some amount of time off after some interval. At Microsoft it means every 18 months you are out of work for 6 months. So forget any sort of career trajectory. Also expect to be given all the worst of the work while it is assumed the reason you are a contractor is because "you couldn't cut it" as a real full time employee. So these gigs will pay the bills and sometimes there can be actual time and half overtime which is nice (assuming your contract doesn't have a 40 hour a week cap, many do so in that case you just won't get paid). Forget things like health club memberships, access to company specific bus service like the "Connector" buses at Microsoft. Well, I guess you do get out of the horrible review process at some of these companies. Would I rather be a real "full time" employee, yup. Now that I am a lowly contractor do I ever expect to get back to that, not so much, If you really want to go direct employee most folks have to go someplace as a non-contractor first then only consider a direct role with a larger company from that point on to scrub off the contractor stain! :-)

    1. Re:Welcome the low lower class by ghoul · · Score: 2

      At Apple its reverse. Its very easy for Contractors to convert to FTE , much easier than for someone from outside to come in. And Apple does not provide anything free so its all the same. Contractors get to use the bus. Only thing which sucks is contractors dont get the 25% discount on iPhones so we buy Samsung ;) and use them inside Apple buildings.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  34. Re:Not surprising by ebh · · Score: 1

    "know how to calculate your bill rate, so that you cover insurance, time off, retirement, taxes...etc."

    Yeah, that's awesome when the client will let you work on a 1099 or if you can go corp-to-corp. Then just bill in dollars per hour what you'd want in an equivalent full-time salary in thousands per year, e.g., $150/hr == $150K/year.

    The vast majority of contractors don't have those options. They have to go through one of the client's preferred contract houses, like the ones mentioned in TFA. Those companies' HR policies are a joke: Lousy yet expensive insurance, minimal vacation and sick time, no raises unless the client is willing to increase what they pay. Even if they'll let you work W-2 hourly (no benefits, and hour's pay for an hour's work, but taxes are withheld and there's still an employer-employee relationship), they still take more of your billing than they should. Plus all the noncompete BS.

  35. Re: So? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    How about they thank the heavens for having a decent job with a decent wage and live in the best country on earth.

    Simple, because the economy forces costs up. Everyone is paying to be in the best country on earth.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  36. Global, Economy-Wide Problem, Not Just IT by Koreantoast · · Score: 1

    This isn't a "Google" problem, this is an industry-wide problem. What larger tech company ISNT doing this?

    This goes beyond even the tech industry to an ongoing global problem . Whether in the United States, Canada, Europe, or East Asia, you have more and more companies opting to use more and more contract labor. It's many of the same reasons: easy to hire and fire / surge, cheaper, etc.

  37. Re:if they are working 29+ hours health insurance by misnohmer · · Score: 1

    Most contractors in big companies are subcontracted out by "manpower" type umbrella companies which pool together contractors and rent them out to large companies, taking a cut from their hourly wages in exchange for doing HR and sometimes providing benefits. The big companies are invoiced per hour for all contractors, not per person, not 1099 or W2. Think when you go to a shop to fix your car - if you get charged for 30hrs of labour, you are not suddenly required to buy the mechanic health insurance because he worked on your car >29hrs this week.

  38. So what by snapsnap · · Score: 1

    I have about for dozen friends between high school and college that work at Microsoft, and as far as I know, all of them receive worse benefits than a real Microsoft employee.

  39. Re:if they are working 29+ hours health insurance by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    but you are not dealing the mechanic week after week. But if you are working w2 for manpower week after week then they must give you health insurance

  40. Re:Still better than socialism by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

    The contractors are paid $137.25 an hour, or their contract management company is paid $137.25 per hour, out of which the employee is paid less?

    One wonders...

    --
    When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  41. Re:Not surprising by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

    Point taken, but Disney doesn't count. They own Congress.

    That said, Google owned the previous presidential administration. I wonder how things are going with the new guy?

    --
    When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  42. Staff Meetings by PPH · · Score: 1

    In general, contractors have been involved in staff meetings right alongside full time employees. If it was project related, they needed to know as much as the employees.

    The ONLY times I have ever seen contractors excused was when there was bad news to be handed out about the companies situation. And then we were all reminded that this info. had not yet been released publicly, so we were now prohibited from trading the company stock for a period of time. When we all made it back to our desks, the contractors had been on the phone with their brokers, dumping their company stock holdings.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Staff Meetings by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Highly doubt contractors have stock in the company they are working at. Its dumb to put all eggs in one basket. Employees get free stock so they have company stock but it would be dumb for a contractor to use real money to buy stock in the company they are contracting at.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  43. Interesting post. Median income or head count? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Interesting post.

    What would you guess is the median net income for US corporations? Just for fun, care to guess the median number of employees?

    Would you be surprised to learn that over 80% of US corporations were created primarily to employee specific people? Would your thoughts change if I mention that over 80% employee only one person, or one person and their immediate family? That over 80% of US corporations are people who own their job.

    1. Re:Interesting post. Median income or head count? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Do publicly traded corporations employ a lot of people? Yes. Do they 1099 an incredible number of people? Yes. Do those agency or 1099 people benefit as employees of the corporation? Only slightly. Does the US Treasury and the Social Security Administration funds lose out because of the agency or 1099 employees? You bet.

      There are a myriad corporations with no employees, or perhaps one or two at best. Add to this, lots of other corpus like LLCs, LLPs, SubS, and other schemes/theories/dodges? A profound number.

      My point is simple: Tax and liability mitigation schemes are myriad. Look at the US Tax Code printed volumes for the stunning result. In publicly traded corps, it's all about the payout. In smaller SubS/C/LLC/LLP/etc., it's about tax mitigation, sheltering expenses, and not about that taxable pass-through profit because that income is absorbed rather than pay a Schedule C rate. Where did you go to business school???

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  44. 400 current shareholder resolutions on social iss by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Here are 400 current shareholder resolutions, in which shareholders are directing companies to prioritize various social issues, such as environmental issues:

    https://www.greenamerica.org/s...

    This is 400 cases this year of shareholders explicitly telling executives "we want you to do this socially responsible thing, even if it cuts into profits".

    You're absolutely right that, lacking any other information, the default assumption is that investmentors would generally prefer to make money rather than lose money. That's a default assumption when their is no reason to believe otherwise.

    On the other hand, it is well known that Ben & Jerry's stockholders wish to support certain social issues:
    https://www.benjerry.com/whats...
    The executives at Ben & Jerry's would breach their duty to shareholders if they invested corporate money in an oil company, because there shareholders wouldn't like that - even if it increased profits.

  45. Re: Sounds familiar... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Jesus titty fucking Christ, I'd take a pay cut to avoid a _weekly_ all hands rah-rah meeting. Sounds excruciating...

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  46. Re:400 current shareholder resolutions on social i by postbigbang · · Score: 1

    Your citations are specious to the point.

    You now desire to disambiguate shareholder rights, as a function of their ownership of a corporation, stock classes held, laws regarding shareholder rights, and more. That's another conversation.

    Resolutions, aiding the aims of social justice, are plentiful and find their ways into stockholder resolutions, which may or may not be viable. They're a nice outlet-- should they be able to influence outcomes, but most often, they don't for a number of reasons.

    My point remains that large corporations are enslaved to profits, even if that means doing sleazy things like hiring temps, 1099 contractors, or using one corp to optimze the return on another through employee renting, and other schemes. Shareholder return is the goal, not social justice. Social justice is the rare exception, as are themes like environmental-allied goals, and more. Corporations are made to enrichen and reduce liability. This doesn't mean I like how corporations work or the law behind them, or the wall against civic control applies, it's just how it is. It can be changed, but it's very difficult to do when corporations control campaign financing, and therefore, the legal system.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  47. Re:I was a contractor and got ripped off. by ghoul · · Score: 1

    You forget to factor in that as an Employee when you work from home you work from home. When you commute you commute.
    As a contractor when you work from home , you take a home office deduction on your taxes. Your car is a writeoff. Your lunches are business expenses. Ditto phone, internet, clothes, conferences, computers. Almost everything an employee pays for with after tax money you pay with before tax money. You also are not limited to only putting 18.5 K into 401. You can put upto 50K. Once you bring the tax benefits in that 50 dollar per hour is like 75 dollar per hour. So in return you do some paperwork. Highest bill rate use of time- doing paperwork.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
  48. Re:if they are working 29+ hours health insurance by ghoul · · Score: 1

    And most contracting companies do provide health insurance. Only mom and pop contracting firms with less than 50 employees dont.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
  49. As an American by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    who constantly worries about healthcare, God I'm envious of you. Make sure your right wing doesn't take it away from you though. It's a constant battle to hang on to what little we have over here :(...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:As an American by r1348 · · Score: 1

      It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. I don't have "sick days", I have a state-certified family doctor which orders me to stay home if he thinks I'm too ill to work. State pays for the first 3 days of leave, then my company has to. Of course I need to present a certificate to my employer for that.
      But still, right now I'm undergoing a root canal surgery that is costing me basically 70% of a monthly salary. I could have gone with public health care, but the wait would have been quite long, which is not ideal when you have a blinding toothache. But that's the exception, not the rule. Still quite ironic if you think that in 2 months I'll have a new employer which offers dental insurance, but you take it as it comes...

  50. Re: Not surprising by datavirtue · · Score: 2

    Speaking of slavery standards. It was mentioned the other day that Amazon caps wages at $176k per year. It hit me today, they probably do that to prevent poaching...as a way of fixing wages. Do other big tech companies have caps?

    I remember a kerfuffle where the big tech companies were colluding at one point..is it possible that they skirted the law by all posting maximum salary caps?

    --
    I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
  51. Re: Not surprising by datavirtue · · Score: 1

    Yeah....and when you run into bullshit and politics that gum up the works you can just kick back and log hours until the W2s stop fighting. It is always funny to see managers batting down the flames when you are logging hours and can't get anything done because the FTEs can't get thier head out of thier ass.

    --
    I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
  52. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How about we acknowledge that the people running the company are also humans, and therefore have a moral imperative to (paraphrasing whichever is your favorite holy text) "not be fucking assholes". I hear this excuse all the time, and I don't understand why it's not consider sociopathic. Moral imperatives come before business interests.

  53. There's contractors and there's contractors by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

    You have your upper tier skilled contractors (I suspect a fair few here) who are brought in on very good money to complete a project or do a specialist task. In Australia, they'd make at least 100 to 200k a year. Day rates exceeding $500/700 a day. I'd assume in US / SF, these people would be 200k+ minimum.

    Then you have 'normal' IT workers, doing basic work, account creation, service desk, back up and restore teams, desktop support. These guys aren't really specialists (not anymore) and there's a volume of work to keep them compartmentalized in a fairly mundane role which is more like working a conveyor belt than hardcore IT. These guys, probably should be perm, but many places still keep em as contractors, so you can fire them easy and pay them poorly. Once you do the figures on their hourly rate, vs the perm staff, factoring in holiday leave / sick leave / medical (for the USA) 401k and whatever other benefits there are. These guys are OFTEN getting shafted and it's extremely common in the industry. I myself have worked a "contract" gig at a mid level salary at best for 4 years for example. I've seen people do it for 11 years..... We're talking under 70k wages (AUD, like 55k US)

    It's fucking the employees. There's no such thing as 'long service leave' anymore, you get close to being eligible and you're accidentally made redundant.

  54. Re:if they are working 29+ hours health insurance by misnohmer · · Score: 1

    Even if you paid the shop for 1000 hrs of work, you're still not obligated to buy any health insurance for anyone. Some people do pay hundreds of hours of labor to restoration shops or customization shops. The mechanic is not your employee, they perform a service for which you get billed for, just happens that the price of the service depends on hours spent.. Same with contractors, they are not employees of the company for which they do work for - their hours are billed as a service.

  55. It's the money duh by Mr_Silver · · Score: 1

    Can't speak for Google or employees in the USA - but here in the UK contractors might not get the free perks, but more than make up for it in the additional money they earn.

    A FTE project manager on £55k has a day rate of around £211. A bog standard contract project manager can easily earn double that. If you're a really good PM then you can earn three times that amount.

    All of the contractors I know wouldn't want to give that up for some free hors d'oeuvres, free beer and the ability to go into a couple of extra offices.

    --
    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
  56. Re: Not surprising by loufoque · · Score: 1

    That probably only applies to the base salary.
    There is still the potential to get 1 to 2 times as much in bonus.

  57. Re:Not surprising by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    You're talking about a different kind of "contractor". These aren't the kind that set their own billing rate - they're the kind that work for a contracting company for peanuts (aka outsourcing). They're W2 employees of the actual contractor.

    If that is the case, then they are getting their "benefits" from their W2 contracting house employer...who is their real employer, not Google.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  58. Re:Not surprising by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, that's awesome when the client will let you work on a 1099 or if you can go corp-to-corp.

    Well, first thing to do, is incorporate yourself, so you can more easily do 1099 corp-to-corp.....

    And I've done the W2 contracting thing too....but even with that, you need to know how to negotiate your salary, just like any other job.

    Both of those opportunties are out there.....you gotta look for them.

    Again, why take a job that is bad for you and doesn't fit your needs? Especially today, it is becoming more and more of an employees market with the unemployment rate doing down....

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  59. Re:Not surprising by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    You do realise that some of these contracts are for things like warehouse jobs. Good luck "negotiating a billing rate blah fucking blah" with that.

    Not everyone is as totally awesome as you. Or rather as awesome as you think you are.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  60. Re:Not surprising by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    You do realise that some of these contracts are for things like warehouse jobs. Good luck "negotiating a billing rate blah fucking blah" with that.

    Not everyone is as totally awesome as you. Or rather as awesome as you think you are.

    I have never claimed to be "awesome"...just putting out facts as I see them, and arguing against those I disagree with, hopefully with my clear reasoning behind it.

    Again I say, if the gig isn't paying you well, find ANOTHER job!!

    And, you may need to move to get to better work. If you can't afford to live in CA....move to the middle of the US, cost of living is cheaper, and there are jobs all over the USA.

    Some times you need to grow up, and leave the nest....leave Mommy and Daddy behind and move to where work is.

    I've done it before, may have to do it again...but that is life, you can't count on it staying the same, and you can't count on opportunity coming to find YOU, you have to go out after opportunity.

    What happened to showing a little self determination and drive?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  61. Re:Still better than socialism by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    And many of the people who foam at the mouth railng about how much they hate socialism are collecting Social Security,Disability benefits, Medicare, Medicade, Food Stamps, and WIC, and other social benefits.

    And the angry mobe pissed at everyone receiving social benefits but they fully deserve theirs - sometimes they have mod points.

    We get it. Today's crypto conservatives are suffering from Red Queen syndrome:

    "Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe impossible things."

    "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.