Slashdot Mirror


Hacked Water Heaters Could Trigger Mass Blackouts Someday (wired.com)

At the Usenix Security conference this week, a group of Princeton University security researchers will present a study that considers a little-examined question in power grid cybersecurity: What if hackers attacked not the supply side of the power grid, but the demand side? From a report: In a series of simulations, the researchers imagined what might happen if hackers controlled a botnet composed of thousands of silently hacked consumer internet of things devices, particularly power-hungry ones like air conditioners, water heaters, and space heaters. Then they ran a series of software simulations to see how many of those devices an attacker would need to simultaneously hijack to disrupt the stability of the power grid. Their answers point to a disturbing, if not quite yet practical scenario: In a power network large enough to serve an area of 38 million people -- a population roughly equal to Canada or California -- the researchers estimate that just a one percent bump in demand might be enough to take down the majority of the grid. That demand increase could be created by a botnet as small as a few tens of thousands of hacked electric water heaters or a couple hundred thousand air conditioners. "Power grids are stable as long as supply is equal to demand," says Saleh Soltan, a researcher in Princeton's Department of Electrical Engineering, who led the study. "If you have a very large botnet of IoT devices, you can really manipulate the demand, changing it abruptly, any time you want."

175 comments

  1. Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Rolling blackouts can fix it.

    1. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blackouts, rolling or otherwise, are not something you want to be faced with at anywhere near -40.

    2. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not connecting water heaters to the Internet might be a better fix.

    3. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Would you call a grid with rolling blackouts stable?

      I'd think stable means I can reliably get power off of it at a voltage close to what is expected.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    4. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not connecting water heaters to the Internet might be a better fix.

      Exactly. Award this person the 1 million dollar cash prize for the most secure solution.

    5. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you call a grid with rolling blackouts stable?

      I'd think stable means I can reliably get power off of it at a voltage close to what is expected.

      Possibly, depending on the extent and duration. The article gives the impress of massive blackouts. .
      ,br>

      Unfortunately, The study is done by college researchers that failed to get any input from a person who actually is involved in grid operation and detection. Hence the complete lack of description of exactly how the grid would fail. They just 'assume'. So basically just making noise.

    6. Re: Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My power company just called to install a wireless remotes on my water heater and my AC so that they could prevent brown-outs.... i said no thanks (even if they offered $120/year)

    7. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      Don't even need rolling blackouts. Most electric companies have programs where they can temporarily disable people's air conditioners to manage demand. This is done with mechanical relays. Usually these are voluntary programs where there is a financial incentive to participate. So your hack ratio would have to be higher than the participation ratio. Otherwise, the electric companies have a simple counter-measure.

    8. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly this, just had a water heater go out, I had never had to buy one so as most 'internet-y' people do I read about 1000 reviews. Coming across water heaters with touch screens to control temperature and wifi adapters that do god knows what, but generally require some kind of forwarding service to the company's computers to work the an APP!, because that's just what people need is an app for a water heater. I can tell you in 35 years I have never needed an app for a water heater and I don't think I ever will. I don't care if it could be 1% more efficient by using a vacation mode. The damn thing will break before the water heater does. Who wants to hole punch their firewall or allow outgoing connections to 3rd party services for devices that won't be supported in 2 years. It is a water heater. It takes cold water, measured the temperature of it after it burns gas then stops burning gas when it reach a set point. The dial on the one I bought says A B C with a gradient between them, no numbers. Don't care. It works, does not require external power, internet, data, IoT any of that garage. It certainly doesn't have a touch screen, Jesus H Christ. What are people thinking now. I love technology, but not where it doesn't below. Complications for complications sake. I think I have turned the thermostat knob on my water heater a hand full of times and you know what, it wasn't that hard, not hard enough to need a God DAMN APP.

      We have solved water heating, these are solutions in-search of problems.

    9. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How then is the hot water heater software supposed to get updates??!? The one human left that can update the software onsite is only one guy. How will we get all the new features the updates provide? /sarcasm

      Why the fuck are they attaching smart devices to every Goddamn thing? My coffee maker is more powerful than a Cray 1. Meanwhile, desktop computers have had almost no appreciable processing advancement in almost two decades.

    10. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also utilities and T&D have demand side management programs already in place to handle industrial customers, plus interruptible power contracts for large service customers. Worst case they can institute rolling blackouts, but that is worst case.

      But this is pretty much nonsense. Utility grids (there is not one, but many of them) can handle large voltage swings and interruptions more than 1% by far. One example a few years ago was ERCOT problems during a cold snap where several plants were offline due to freezing conditions. Another is wind farms that suddenly come offline all at once as happened in West Texas. The real issue is if bad actors start taking down substations, causing forced outages due to generator protective systems. An example (that happened by accident not purposefully) was the Northeast 2003 blackout. But they recovered most areas within 24 hours. And that is pretty much worse case.

    11. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct, they already have systems in place to managed this. After every typical power failure for example, electrical demand is as much as 300% higher than normal as every fridge, ac, heater etc turns back on at the same time to regulate temps back to normal. This was solved about 100 years ago...

    12. Re: Rolling blackouts can fix it. by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Mine installed one. It was a choice and it sounded cool having the remote access and they promised they would only shut off my a/c in the case of city emergencies.

      Well that changed fairly quickly and they started overriding my controls everyday for several hours during the hottest time of the day. My power bill went up because the A/C had to work extra hard to get the temperature back down (versus just maintain it) and it was miserable every time I got home. I replaced it with one I could control from my smart hub.

    13. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Yeah, I'm asking myself, who the fuck has a water heater that is network connectable, much less hooked to the internet?

      Network enabled space heaters? Really?

      I was also going to ask about AC and regular Central heat, but then I did think that some people have them controllable and accessible through apps.

      Frankly, I'd not want to have any of my utilities type things connected in the house, I see no benefit from it, but I can see many negatives.

      I just want something that functions a LONG time, and works independently of other things in my home.

      I don't need to connect my fridge, or dishwasher or toaster...hell, I wouldn't let the Power or Gas company install a network able connection to my meters....

      The internet and being connected has its place, but running my home, is not one of them.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Not connecting water heaters to the Internet might be a better fix.

      Then how will the internet get hot water?

    15. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, The study is done by college researchers that failed to get any input from a person who actually is involved in grid operation and detection. Hence the complete lack of description of exactly how the grid would fail. They just 'assume'. So basically just making noise.

      Evidently it was done using a 2008 Polish grid model. Now, I doubt they have a copy of such a model that includes protection schemes, more likely a grid layout and they just make assumptions. So yes, this is a complete waste of our time. Thanks /.

    16. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't care about remotely controlling my water heater, but I would very much like to get status reports from it. Such things as both water and electricity usage. And I'd like to get alerts to abnormal usage in real time. Getting an alert that my water usage was spiking could allow me to avoid a flooded house because the dishwasher or something else failed. Of course, I'd like those things to report to me also.

      Ideally, these things would report to a little Raspberry Pi server in the house and I'd have some way from there to report to my cell/whatever device.

      --XYZZY--

    17. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by MightyYar · · Score: 1
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    18. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by AlanBDee · · Score: 2

      I was also going to ask about AC and regular Central heat, but then I did think that some people have them controllable and accessible through apps.

      Yep, I've got a Nest. While it scares me to have it connected to the internet the convenience is worth it. My power bill has been lower by about $20-$30/mo over previous years; comparing July 2018 to July 2017, 2016, 2015. It has to track my phone to know when I'm near by, otherwise the house isn't cold when I get home in the summer or warm in the winter.

      At least I have a PfSense firewall that blocks certain international blocks of IP addresses. But even if my box isn't hacked, most people's would be hacked. I just hope Nest will keep their shit patched.

    19. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by sarren1901 · · Score: 2

      My local power company in San Diego, SDGE, offered all city people FREE upgraded Internet enabled thermostats they could control with a phone app. I don't live in the city so wasn't offered one.

      My coworker took advantage of it and loves that he can of course mess with it. I immediately asked him if he was at all concerned someone other then himself could likely control his thermostat. Some teenager could jack his AC down to 64 or the heat up to 85. He shrugged it off.

      A few weeks back, he noticed that SDGE remotely locked his thermostat to 78 on a "reduce your use day". I laughed my butt off to say the least.

      I even recently upgraded my own thermostat and decided to go with the non Internet enabled option. Naturally I could only find a basic non-Internet device because if you want features you some how need the Internet. Sigh, whatever. I'm still happy the only devices that connect to the Internet in my home are cellphones, desktops and a single TV.

      Screw all the LoT.

    20. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by sarren1901 · · Score: 2

      Ideally that's how everything would work. Things would be network enabled, but not Internet enabled. That doesn't let companies try to control and harvest information from the general population though.

      If I could control all the devices personally then I may consider adding some "smart" features to my home. I could see having critical devices such as AC, water heater and power meter reporting information to me and only me. If someone is wrong, it would be nice to know as someone else mentioned above. They could all connect to their own subnet and you could setup a VPN for your phone to connect to to receive the reports or setup an outgoing only mail to send the reports.

      Since all the control seems to be withheld from the consumer, I can't see a compelling reason be a consumer of that market.

    21. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Don't care. It works, does not require external power,

      Really? Where did you find that? My hot water heater is gas also. But it still requires a 110 line to run the exhaust blower.

    22. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's coming sooner or later, whether you like it or not. The power companies are already remotely controlling commercial HVAC, in exchange for a small discount on power for same. Eventually, they'll extend that offer to residential users. Some time later, they will probably make it mandatory, first for commercial users, then later, residential ones. Unless, of course, some kind of power comes along that's too cheap to meter ;)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Then how will the internet get hot water?

      By posting anti-SJW documents for public view, then they'll be in all kinds of hot water.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    24. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by blindseer · · Score: 1

      There are still "low efficiency" water heaters available that require no electricity, they just use gas for heat and a mechanical thermostat with a pilot light to switch the heat on and off. There is a need for a chimney, the exhaust is carried away by some of the heat. I like these kinds of water heaters as they have very few moving parts to fail, still give hot water in an electrical outage, and because they are cooking with gas they heat the water quickly. Oh, and they are cheap. Maybe a "high efficiency" gas water heater is marginally cheaper to run long term but the "low efficiency" water heaters are cheaper to buy.

      I've had people ask why it's important to me to have a water heater that works during a power outage. I live in the American Midwest, and here we still have a lot of overhead power lines. Power lines that like to come down in ice storms. Meaning there's generally once per year the power will go out. This happens often at night, when it's coldest. This "low efficiency" water heater pays for itself in allowing to stay "civilized" with a hot shower when you want it. The electricity may go out but the natural gas and water rarely do, those are underground and driven by stored up pressure. Natural gas fireplaces are common around here for much of the same reason, they work in a power outage. They look nice too.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    25. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by blindseer · · Score: 1

      I was also going to ask about AC and regular Central heat, but then I did think that some people have them controllable and accessible through apps.

      Frankly, I'd not want to have any of my utilities type things connected in the house, I see no benefit from it, but I can see many negatives.

      My brother has a detached shed that he fixed up to be a garage for his cars and playroom for the kids. He got himself an internet connected thermostat for the heaters inside so he could preheat the shed on cold days so it would be warm by the time he got home with the kids. That way they could play in a warm space and he'd not have to pay for heat any longer than he needed. When it's time to bring the kids in the house for supper then he could turn everything off with his phone. If there was any concern on forgetting to turn something off then he could check it at any time from any where. As the shed has overhead doors to park his cars it can still be a heated garage for when it's simply too cold outside for the kids to play there.

      What's the negative to this? I suppose someone could crank up the heat if they were able to bypass the security, but that would only mean running up his utility bill. the heaters sill have their own mechanical thermostats, and he uses the shed regularly, so they can run the heat up only so high. If he's in the shed at the time he still has the ability to override things manually.

      This is not a house but it uses the same kind of internet connected thermostat that people use in a house. He's quite fond of automating things and getting them connected but he's still not ready to have the house heating controlled remotely.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    26. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by blindseer · · Score: 1

      It's coming sooner or later, whether you like it or not. The power companies are already remotely controlling commercial HVAC, in exchange for a small discount on power for same. Eventually, they'll extend that offer to residential users. Some time later, they will probably make it mandatory, first for commercial users, then later, residential ones. Unless, of course, some kind of power comes along that's too cheap to meter ;)

      You mean like natural gas? Well, not too cheap to meter but cheap enough that it's not likely anyone would bother trying to time shift access.

      I realize that not everyone can do this, because they don't own their own home and such, but propane tanks are still a thing. Heating oil is a bad word any more but it's also an option. If you have a tank on your property for fuel then no one is going to be able to control your ability to draw from it as you wish. If the utilities get too controlling then people will simply choose to disconnect from it, and it's not that hard to do.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    27. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Cramer · · Score: 1

      who the fuck has a water heater that is network connectable

      Mine can be -- iCOMM industrial control system. It's in my house, so it doesn't have one. And it wouldn't be "connected to the internet" if I did, but it would be connected to my leads-to-the-internet LAN.

      Having seen numerous documentaries and tours of the UK National Grid, and various US grid operators, nobody runs at exactly 100%. A healthy grid is run with some excess capacity as a buffer -- while small, for obvious cost reductions, it's important to have that buffer to avoid brownouts due to sudden increases is load. (i.e. the exact thing the hacker is trying to cause.) I'll pick on the UK because their load has the grandest predictable spikes... when many "click on the kettle".

    28. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I realize that not everyone can do this, because they don't own their own home and such, but propane tanks are still a thing.

      We live in the sticks so we use propane, but lots of places you're not allowed to stockpile fuels, mostly in cities. When I worked for Cisco in Santa Cruz we had a natural gas generator to get us through outages, but if a big quake had happened we'd have had to turn that off too for safety.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    29. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by dublin · · Score: 1

      Actually, connecting water heaters via (secure) smart grid IoT has tremendous promise as perhaps the best possible large-scale energy storage method known:
      https://www.esource.com/ES-WP-...

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    30. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by blindseer · · Score: 1

      We live in the sticks so we use propane, but lots of places you're not allowed to stockpile fuels, mostly in cities.

      I recognized that in my previous post. Even so there are other means to store energy, like batteries. Again I recognize this may not be practical for people that rent. If you own your home and live in an area where the electrical utilities are asking for the ability to shut off your home appliances then planning for impending outages may be wise. I don't know how practical it is for a battery backup on a water heater or air conditioner but other devices might need a battery backup, because rolling blackouts are likely to be in your future.

      In the end these utility controlled remote shut-off devices are band-aids on bullet wounds. They are having serious infrastructure problems, likely had them for a long time before they considered offering home owners the option for reduced rates for time shifting their loads, and may not have a plan to actually resolve the problem any time in the future.

      If this is happening to you then get battery backups for your refrigerators and freezers, your computers and other electronics, maybe even your garage door opener, before the blackouts start. There was a day I went home for lunch and to get in the house I just opened the garage door remotely from my truck to walk in. While I was making myself a sandwich the power went out. This wasn't much of a concern as I planned for power outages, except closing the garage door. I could lower the door with the manual release but that would not lock it shut. I was able to run an extension cord to the garage door opener from one of my inverters and lower the door shut and locked again. It's little things like this one might not think about until it happens to them, and there are garage door openers with a built in backup battery.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    31. Re: Rolling blackouts can fix it. by xvan · · Score: 1

      A lot of non renewable, expensive, power capacity is installed to tolerate consumption peaks. One 'smart' strategy to deal with is Demand Response, which basically translates to allow utilities to control your appliances to redistribute those consumption peaks in time. It's debatable how dumb is it to give up control of your devices in exchange of cheaper energy.

    32. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I'm asking myself, who the fuck has a water heater that is network connectable, much less hooked to the internet?

      Well, to play devils advocate. If the water heater is plain old electric, well, there are a lot of advantages to being able to tune when they draw power, particularly if you are allowed to say overshoot your target temperature a bit to compensate.

      You can heat water more cheaply with electric with some kind of heat pump variation, though the roi is somewhat lengthy.

      I'd be more worried about furnaces. If you force them to go max out in the summer you might catch a few homes on fire with marginal jobs on the install. (The safety circuits should stop most of them.)

      Come to think of it, dynamic loading might be harder to deal with for a utility. Turn everything on in as many houses at once for say 60 seconds, then back off for 60 seconds. Rinse and repeat. Could the power plans deal with the trashing without something tripping?

    33. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by terrycarlino · · Score: 1

      Many power companies for years have given consumers breaks on their bill for allowing the utility to control their water heater to allow the utility to turn it off or reduce the temperature during peak usage.

      How do you think the utility does this? The water heater is network connected.

      Most modern meters are already network connected, and the utility doesn't ask the consumer for permission. I haven't had a meter reader look at my electric meter in decades. It's in a locked yard.

    34. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Megane · · Score: 1

      Natural gas-powered water heaters might be an even better fix. They might even be cheaper to run, too.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    35. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then how will the internet get hot water?

      By posting anti-SJW documents for public view, then they'll be in all kinds of hot water.

      Your comment history makes it clear that you've come here to obsessively attack feminism. Can I ask you to explain in some detail what made you think that Slashdot is the kind of place that feminists hang out?

      Captcha: Ineffectual!

    36. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is assuming you live somewhere with natural gas service. You're stuck with either electric or having propane or something delivered.

    37. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could lower the door with the manual release but that would not lock it shut.

      Uh.. engage manual release, lower door, disengage manual release? Or does your garage door opener require that the manual release be disengaged at the exact same location that it was engaged from?

    38. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Or does your garage door opener require that the manual release be disengaged at the exact same location that it was engaged from?

      It does. Some garage doors have a manual door lock on the door to lock it shut, as does mine but the lock was broken by my house's previous occupant. The only means to lock the door shut was the garage door opener, although I had considered a means to block it shut as a last resort.

      By closing the door with the garage door opener with power from my inverter I had reset the system to its normal state. If I had locked the door with the manual backup (which was broken in my case), or jamming it shut with something blocking the track, then I'd be unable to open the door normally with my remote when I got home from work that evening. As I was on my lunch break when this happened I didn't want to spend a lot of time on the problem either. I had a long extension cord at hand, a large inverter within reach of the cord, and as tall as I am I can reach the power cord to the garage door opener easily. The longest part in the process was waiting for the door to close.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    39. Re: Rolling blackouts can fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously a rolling outage is no issue for me here in Canada. We live in a place where we have a power outage or two every winter. Thatâ(TM)s actually better than in summer. In summer we canâ(TM)t run the AC without electricity so power outages stink. Like recently when we were hit by a powerful thunderstorm. Winter is fine, we just let the propane fireplace run longer. Since we are talking rolling blackout and not grid down for weeks here it wonâ(TM)t even lead to higher demand of propane deliveries.

    40. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by JakeBurn · · Score: 1

      While I was playing Detroit Become Human I kept thinking of them as appliances. Then I thought if I ever find any of my appliances attempting, on their own, to communicate with each other or even worse, to my network, it would be time to replace them with something else. Far too many potential vectors for someone to mess with things versus nearly no real benefits.

    41. Re:Rolling blackouts can fix it. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Voltage, and correct frequency - most devices are relatively tolerant of sloppy frequency, but high power devices and high precision devices tend to be more sensitive.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's -40c in winter and +50c in summer (factoring in wind/humidity).

    You know how much demand the electric heaters, hot water heaters, and ACs put on the grid? You're going to need to do a lot better than that.

    1. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      What parts of Quebec are you talking about exactly?

      In periods of intense heat and cold, temperatures can reach 35 C (95 F) in the summer[47] and 40 C (40 F) during the Quebec winter,

      Reference point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Pretty sure that -40c (-40f) is a big fat typo, I'll bite that it goes down to -40c though during the worst of conditions/wind chill... but even the averages in the table of that same article is showing nothing close to what you've stated.

      Yours truly,
      A concerned fellow East Coast Canadian

      --
      I tend to rant.
    2. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Dread_ed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yo, homie...

      -40 is the exact same in f and c.

      Yes, i'm serious.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    3. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Well fuck me........... so it is.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    4. Re: Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wind chill can make ambient temp feel like -40c and humidity made ambient temps feel like 50c over Canada Day weekend.

      No brownouts at all.

    5. Re: Hydro Quebec isn't scared by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      I believe that in Canada, -40C is "Fecking cold, eh?" while in the US -40F is "Fucking cold, dude". Small difference.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    6. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Actually, when I was in the Canadian Army, we had to operate in -40C temps quite often. So, maybe you need to realize it's cold out there.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    7. Re: Hydro Quebec isn't scared by suutar · · Score: 1

      in much of the US, -40 is "oh my god you want me to go out there? Are you trying to kill me? Hell no, I'm staying inside under a blanket watching netflix."

    8. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -40C isn't as bad as it sounds* if you dress properly. For a few weeks every year, in the depths of winter about 40 years ago, we would trudge to school in colder temps closer to -50C.

      *Not that I wouldn't take high -20s over sub--40C any day of the week, but a good parka, ski pants, heavy boots, heavy mitts, a warm toque or fur hat and scarf will keep you warm. The past few years it's only just kissed -40C for a few days in the depths of winter**, but I walk 20 minutes each way to and from work in that with no trouble.

      **Let's hear it for climate change!

    9. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Oh I realize it is. Hence why I asked what part of Quebec.
      We've all seen the videos where it's so cold you can throw water up in the air and instantly freezes.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    10. Re:Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      All good my frostbitten friend! I learned it much younger in a series of science fiction books. Pretty sure it was Frederick Pohl's Gateway/Heechee series.

      As penance for pointing it out I'll give you a good one on me:

      Until very recently, say 2 years ago, I thought the indigenous fire ants that have plagued me since I was a child used their mandibles to inject venom. The term "ant bites" seemed to explain all I needed to know and I never thought twice about it. Then someone told me the little beasts have a stinger, the term "ant bites" was a misnomer, and the truth of how these millimeter scale tyrants turned my life to shit on so many occasions had been deliberately hidden from me.

      I was at a complete loss. Pretty damn funny watching me fumbling through my phone looking for evidence while my friends just laughed and laughed at me and my incredulity.

      Cheers!

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    11. Re: Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in much of the US, -40 is "oh my god you want me to go out there? Are you trying to kill me? Hell no, I'm staying inside under a blanket watching netflix."

      Are you shitting me? In much of the US, anything below 32F and the locals are going to start dying in the streets and in their homes, because they've never seen it and aren't equipped for it. A dusting of snow will shut down the Carolinas or Florida for the whole day, while I might still be wearing shorts.

      At -40 (as has been pointed out, C and F meet there) ... you'll have some Canadians and a couple of people from Wisconsin who might venture outside. But otherwise almost anywhere else in the US they'd have a state of emergency.

      I have the gear to head out when it's that cold, and have done so. But it's pretty hardcore, and unless you are prepared for it, it could literally be fatal in a very short period of time.

      Where I live in the peak heat this summer was 37C with a humidex of 47 ... and I've seen temperatures the negative of those in the winter. So, yeah, where I live there is about a 70-80C range of temperature between summer and winter, maybe more like a 90 degree range with windchill and humidex values.

      And in "much of the US", that -40C/-40F would literally be killing people in large numbers, because the houses aren't insulated for it. I'm not sure most of the US would have electrical power at those temperatures, nor the ability to send someone out to look at it.

      From personal experience, -40 isn't just cold, it's cold like you can't imagine or explain to someone else.

    12. Re: Hydro Quebec isn't scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I explain it to people like this: grab an ice pack from your freezer and hold it on your face. That's still about 40(f) warmer than -40 degrees.

      Stepping out into that cold literally feels like getting punched in the face, and even dressed in normal winter gear you can feel the heat sucking out of your body.

  3. Randomization... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Introduce a random time error into thermostats for things like HVAC systems -- even if they're all set to turn on at 6pm next Tuesday, some will turn on at 5:58, some will turn on at 6:00, some will turn on at 6:05. This will hopefully give the grid controllers enough time to adapt to a spike in load.

    Also, why do water heaters need to be "smart?" I thought they responded to demand -- if there's no hot water flow, the water stays hot in a well-insulated tank, and the heating element doesn't need to run. There's minimal heat loss in an electric heater compared to gas, since the only breaks in the insulating layer are for wires, input, output, and overflow pipes.

    Better yet, have all new homes use tankless/"on-demand" heaters.

    1. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume it can be smart so that it can let the water get a few degrees cooler and kick on after peak on high demand days.

      Similar to the same reason as an AC?

    2. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Introduce a random time error into thermostats for things like HVAC systems -- even if they're all set to turn on at 6pm next Tuesday, some will turn on at 5:58, some will turn on at 6:00, some will turn on at 6:05. This will hopefully give the grid controllers enough time to adapt to a spike in load.

      Which doesn't really help if the attacker controls the device. If manufacturers did this, all the attacker has to do is just disable it.

      The solution here is to simple not connect everything in your house to the internet. Why does my hot water heater need to be on the internet? Why does my thermostat? I could do all these things myself... but why? I programmed the thermostat to adhere to my patterns. In 10 years not once have I thought about controlling my houses temperature from anywhere outside the house. I'm even more perplexed why I'd want something as boring as a hot water heater on the internet.

      These features are just gold plating nonsense that manufacturers put it to appease all these weirdo tech obsessed people who want i-everything.

    3. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a tankless / on-demand water heater. It sucked.

    4. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Water heaters need to be "smart" for the same reason everything else needs to be "smart," so the corporations that greedily snap up all possible data-points about your life have yet another in. Just imagine how wonderful it will be when they can remotely turn down your heat in the winter because you're using too much power! It'll start more subtly than that, with suggestions on how to be more energy efficient, but rest-assured, that will be the end result.

    5. Re:Randomization... by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Also, why do water heaters need to be "smart?"

      Probably to respond to load shedding requests. Ideally that should only allow a signal to setback the water temperature setpoint. I suppose if they hacked a large number of electric water heaters to load shed, then waited a few hours for the water heaters to cool, and then took them all off of setback at the same time it could still cause a surge. Probably have better (or worse, depending on your viewpoint) results by hacking air conditioners or electric heat furnaces. But I doubt that there's enough hackable 'smart' devices installed yet to have much effect.

    6. Re:Randomization... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      It was probably under-specced for the amount of hot water you were using.

      Take a shower in the US. Say you use 2.5gal/min ~= 10L/min ~= 166cc/sec. Specific heat of water is about 4 J/cc*degree C. So you need about 664 J/s per degree C available, or 664 watts.

      Say your water temp is 5C in winter. You need to raise this to 40C for a hot shower. That's a delta-T of 35C. 664W * 35C = 23240W. That's about 96 amps at 240 volts -- unless your heater is on a 100A circuit, it's not strong enough for you to shower. This being said, this is relatively easy to build into new housing,

    7. Re:Randomization... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      if there's no hot water flow, the water stays hot in a well-insulated tank

      Because Newton's Law of Cooling.

      Although the tank is well insulated the greater the temperature differential between the water inside and the surrounding environment the greater the energy lossless will be. To simplify its nonlinear. Assuming its 60F in the crawl space under you house and you want the water to be 120F it will require the input of additional energy to keep it around there periodically. Insulated or not. It would require less energy to keep the water around 90F.

      Lets assume you work from 8a - 5p most days and so does the rest of your household. You certainly want to have nice hot showers available from 6a - 7:30 after that there is probably little demand for hot water. Around 6:30p - 9p you might want hot water handy for dishes laundry etc. After 11p there is probably little demand until 6a again. 90 would be hot enough for hand washing...

      So there are some largish windows in there where a smart water heater could allow the tank temperature to drop and nobody would care. It a chance to save some energy. Sure a simple time like a set back thermostat could do this. SMART is better though because it could integrate with other stuff like lights and things to determine, "you stayed home today" and keep the water hot. Or notice you changed your pattern and started turning on the dishwasher when you leaving in the AM and adjust.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    8. Re:Randomization... by jittles · · Score: 1

      I had a tankless / on-demand water heater. It sucked.

      Good thing you didn’t mention the brand or model or you’d be in hot water!

    9. Re:Randomization... by bobbied · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had a tankless / on-demand water heater. It sucked.

      Mine is wonderful, hot water forever, don't have to keep a tank of water hot so my gas bill went down some. The biggest problem I have with mine is the teenaged kids now have no limits in the shower, the hot water never runs out, so they stay in there forever.

      But everybody needs to know you don't get a tank-less to save money and NEVER get an electric model, only gas fired. You only get tank-less for the convenience of endless hot water, and you pay extra for that.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:Randomization... by bobbied · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd only recommend gas fired tank-less heaters. Electric ones are unreliable and usually undersized as you point out.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    11. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Modern tanks are damn well insulated, I've been working in my basement all day within earshot of the heater and never hear the burner turn on just to maintain temperature, only when the hot water was being used. I turned it off the gas supply one morning and was letting it cool down before draining it later that day to service it, several hours later the water draining out was still steaming hot.

    12. Re:Randomization... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      "Introduce a random time error into thermostats for things like HVAC systems" Might solve the grid loading problem but would not save energy. People are not stupid If they know the HVAC settings might go upto 15min one way or the other they will have them kick on 15min earlier. My heat comes up in Winter around 5:30 because I want my fingers and toes not be cold when I get out of bed at 6. I already know its going to take 1/2 hour for floors and such to warm up to the air temp. If I know the heat might come on 15min later I'd set it 15 earlier. That means on days when the random value is nearer to 0 it runs longer...

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    13. Re:Randomization... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1, Funny

      Girls need to fap too. Get them a hand held shower massage if you want them out of their quicker.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:Randomization... by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Introduce a random time error into thermostats for things like HVAC systems

      Usually when people lower the temperature on their thermostat to below the current temp; they expect their A/C to kick on immediately ---
      if there's a 2 minute delay between adjusting it in the app and seeing the new temp in effect on the thermostat, there are going to be complaints, since that is a long time.

      Better yet, have all new homes use tankless/"on-demand" heaters.

      Tankless heaters require MUCH more electric power while operating and there's still a delay from shower start to
      hot water arrives at the bath. So imagine some company sells an IoT convenience device for your shower/tub called a "Pre-Warmer";
      basically an App that lets you turn on and run the hot water spigot to your shower/tub over the internet without having to walk all the way
      to the shower/tub and then back to what you were doing, in order to provide you the convenience that the water may be already toasty warm by the time that you walk over to it, and millions of these devices get hacked, then we're back at the same situation --- a million of these devices turning on will activate half a million tankless water heaters at the same time (if 50% of the people with the app are tankless).

    15. Re:Randomization... by mysidia · · Score: 2

      The biggest problem I have with mine is the teenaged kids now have no limits in the shower

      There are multiple electronic and mechanical timer-based devices that can be installed for enforcing limits
      on shower time... isn't technology great?

    16. Re:Randomization... by ls671 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand your point!

      Get them a hand held shower massage if you want them out of their quicker.

      Please explain...

      Also, where are their quicker located, what is it?

      Thanks,

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    17. Re:Randomization... by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Probably to respond to load shedding requests. Ideally that should only allow a signal to setback the water temperature setpoint.

      That.... and I see another possible application. Usually hot water from the tank is needed Only during certain times of day.

      Major uses for hot water are: Showers... Hot Baths... Kitchen cleanup. Dishwashing. Laundry.
      All 4 of these tasks occur during certain days and times on a predictable weekly schedule; and among those only Showers/Baths and Dishwashing require an enormous amount of hot water --- with Kitchen cleanup and Laundry sometimes using a little bit of warm water.

      Why not be able to schedule the hot water system so that it only cares to make sure enough gallons of hot water at sufficient temperature at the expected demand times?

    18. Re:Randomization... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Get a recirculation pump installed and connect it to a tankless heater. The piping in the house will serve as a heat reservoir and you'll also get immediate hot water.

    19. Re:Randomization... by locofungus · · Score: 1

      Usually when people lower the temperature on their thermostat to below the current temp; they expect their A/C to kick on immediately

      Amen to that.

      Thermostats (room temperature things) in the UK are now all 'smart' energy saving things which attempt to heat a room to the set temperature without overshooting.

      But you're feeling a bit cold, instead of putting the tenperature up 1 degree, you have to put it up 3 so that the heating doesn't switch off until it's gone up 1 degree. (thats centigrade)

      I suppose they work for people who set the temperature to 'the maximum they're comfortable with' but I've always wanted 'the minimum I'm comfortable with' and so, instead, a smart thermostat should be 'on' until it reaches the set temperature and never undershoot instead.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    20. Re:Randomization... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      I hope your water is hotter than 120F. It should be at least 130F at all times to ensure legionella doesn't grow inside it.
      90F is a perfect temperature for it to grow. It prefers 70 - 115F to reproduce. 140F kills it.

    21. Re:Randomization... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Unless the tankless systems are gas powered, which they all should be unless you don't like hot water and are actually looking for "slightly warmer than the cold water tap"

    22. Re:Randomization... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      The piping in the house holds a lot less energy than the water inside it, even if it's copper pipe. Lots of new houses have plastic pipes.

    23. Re:Randomization... by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Set it too low and it's a great environment for bacteria. Small amounts of bacteria are found in tap water. A better way to make it more efficient is to add extra insulation around it, if you're concerned. Most new water heaters are already fairly well insulated. Also add some insulation on the outlet pipe, if accessible.

    24. Re:Randomization... by AlanBDee · · Score: 1

      On a somewhat unrelated note, I often set my cron jobs with random seconds and/or minutes so the servers don't get hit right at the turn of the hour. Too bad cron doesn't have a syntax for a random wildcard, like *? *? 4 * * * which would mean, anytime between 4am-4:59 59 will be fine.

    25. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only get tank-less for the convenience of endless hot water, and you pay extra for that.

      Depends on where you like and what your water is like. Where I am, a hot water tank is generally good for about six years, I think, before it fails and dumps its load. Lots of water damage has been had by those who didn't keep a close eye on things. I went tankless right about the time my second tank was about to fail and I haven't looked back.

    26. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The biggest problem I have with mine is the teenaged kids now have no limits in the shower, the hot water never runs out, so they stay in there forever.

      I had a coworker who's teenage nephew would take 45 minute showers, going until all the hot water ran out. He asked and asked for him to take shorter showers, but the nephew wouldn't stop. So he installed a flow switch, hooked it to a timing relay, and after ten minutes the timing relay would energize a shutoff valve that he installed on the water heater's outgoing hot line. Kind of a rude wake up call, but the nephew started taking 9 minutes and 59 seconds in the shower.

    27. Re:Randomization... by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Tankless systems have the same corrosion problem. They also have the added benefit of scale reducing their effectiveness and eventually clogging them entirely. If your tanked heater was properly installed -- it has a catch pan and drain -- then the eventual pinhole leaks will not be the ruination you claim. Either way, preventive maintenance is necessary to keep them running for years. (my previous one lasted 23 years! The flue eventually burned through -- short of spraying it with the stuff used to protect welding tips, not much I can do to protect the steel from the fire that's supposed to heat it.)

      (the ones at my parent's house (electric) have always rusted from the inside out because no one replaces the cathode rods)

    28. Re:Randomization... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      It's still enough to make sure that you don't get water temperature drops. The recirculation pump also keeps the heater itself warm. It obviously reduces the efficiency, though.

    29. Re:Randomization... by terrycarlino · · Score: 1

      EPA and DOE recommend setting hot water heaters no higher than 120 F to prevent burns. OSHA recommends 140 for the reasons you mention. I wouldn't doubt that California requires it be set at 120 F upon pain of public humiliation and fines.

    30. Re:Randomization... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I had a broken tankless / on-demand water heater. It sucked too. I replaced it and all is well. Unless some laws come in I'm going to stick with tankless. Sooooo much better than a tanked one that wastes energy heating water no one uses.

    31. Re:Randomization... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I'd only recommend gas fired tank-less heaters. Electric ones are unreliable and usually undersized as you point out.

      I've had some great electric heaters (in the UK, they get made for UK conditions), the downside are the electricity bills. Electric heaters that are reliable and spec'd for purpose are power hogs.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    32. Re:Randomization... by bobbied · · Score: 2

      I'd only recommend gas fired tank-less heaters. Electric ones are unreliable and usually undersized as you point out.

      I've had some great electric heaters (in the UK, they get made for UK conditions), the downside are the electricity bills. Electric heaters that are reliable and spec'd for purpose are power hogs.

      I'm still of the opinion that electric is not the way to go in tank-less water heaters. Yes, they exist and many people use them and yes they are "power hogs" but no more so than an electric tank heater. My objection to them is that they are likely to be undersized because they can draw nearly 100 Amps and most modern residential service panels are about 250 Amps total. The temptation is to go smaller and not have to install a larger service panel (which involves considerable expense and inconvenience) and may not be easily available. But my main objection to electric tank-less water heaters is reliability. They are very sensitive to any air pockets that happen to sneak though them and subject to self destruction of the heater elements when this happens. I know of a number of times where this has happened among my friends.

      Your mileage may vary and your specific unit may be more reliable. But based on my experience, I only recommend gas fired tank-less heaters unless you are doing a "point of use" install, which are very small units.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    33. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tankless systems have the same corrosion problem. They also have the added benefit of scale reducing their effectiveness and eventually clogging them entirely.

      Well poop. Thanks for the heads up, I guess.

      If your tanked heater was properly installed -- it has a catch pan and drain -- then the eventual pinhole leaks will not be the ruination you claim.

      The catch pan and drain were not a thing when the house was built. The first time I had to replace the tank somebody had determined that was a good idea so the folks who installed the replacement tank installed the pan and drain at the same time. That didn't change decades of history and thousands of homes installed over that time from costing a lot of people (or at least their insurance companies, presumably) a lot of money in water damage.

    34. Re:Randomization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's interesting.
      My country has even using gas eletrical water heater on demand.
      I shifted to Indonesia where they have an always on xxgallon of heated water and i feel thats more expensive.

    35. Re:Randomization... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I'd only recommend gas fired tank-less heaters. Electric ones are unreliable and usually undersized as you point out.

      I've had some great electric heaters (in the UK, they get made for UK conditions), the downside are the electricity bills. Electric heaters that are reliable and spec'd for purpose are power hogs.

      I'm still of the opinion that electric is not the way to go in tank-less water heaters.

      Oh yes. Gas heating is far more cost effective and faster to heat up. I'd hate to live in a house without gas heating in the UK but if it's a choice between no heat and electric, don't dismiss electric heaters.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  4. I'm no expert by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

    But...

    Then they ran a series of software simulations to see how many of those devices an attacker would need to simultaneously hijack to disrupt the stability of the power grid.

    Wouldn't it just be simpler to run the calculation on paper?
    I can't personally help much here, all I've bothered to learn is how to calculate an appliance's electricity usage over X amount of days, but anyone with decent knowledge of supply and demand for powerplants should be able to do this fairly trivially I'd think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Not to mention the power usage likely* varies from one brand of product to the next, let alone one type of item to the next.

    *Would need a couple minutes of research at most...

    --
    I tend to rant.
    1. Re:I'm no expert by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm wrong.

      You're wrong.

      Setting up a software simulation of this sort takes way less time than writing it out on paper. Writing it on paper would be even slower than using a graphing calculator for this task, though that would work fine if you're experienced programming it to do this stuff.

      You just don't imagine how easy math is using a statistical programming language like R, or even Matlab.

      Even C would be faster than paper, for a person well-practiced in both.

      But worse, on paper you could have a much wider variety of errors. Nobody else looking at your calculations could evaluate if it is correct without repeating all your work. Using a computer, there is a lot less to check as the mechanics of the math will be done correctly every time. You just have to make sure the variables are in the right places; something you have to do on paper, too.

    2. Re:I'm no expert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't it just be simpler to run the calculation on paper?

      I may not matter. Unless they had a realistic grid operational model, the release of which would itself would be much more of a security concern than the claims of this study, they are just graduate students who think they know what they are doing.

      Crap like this shouldn't be published.

    3. Re:I'm no expert by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What? Grid operations are not confidential. You can get reports from FERC about when regions have reserve violations.

      But they aren't exactly top secret revelations, it's during the hottest days of the year, in the afternoon. Unless you live way north, then it's during the coldest day of the year, right about dawn.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:I'm no expert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? Grid operations are not confidential. You can get reports from FERC about when regions have reserve violations.

      But they aren't exactly top secret revelations, it's during the hottest days of the year, in the afternoon. Unless you live way north, then it's during the coldest day of the year, right about dawn.

      I don't think you understand what a grid model is. You definitely won't get one from FERC.

    5. Re:I'm no expert by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You don't think...

      Decades of experience running grid models. You can definitely get _more_than_one_ from FERC and EPRI, but they kind of suck.

      The slightly harder thing to get your hands on is a dataset, but still not that hard. The _really_ hard thing to get is initial conditions and in some cases (notably Florida) fuel availability (in anything like real time).

      The fact remains, you don't need a grid model to know when the grid is subject to cascade failure. You just need to know when the reserve violations are...BTW reserves (spinning and ready) are terms used in the power industry.

      Modeling those cascade failures is very challenging. Going to need detailed transmission line, fuel pipeline models and reasonably complete multi area models. Things that aren't generally done together.

      I do, in fact, know how to crash the grid with low tech methods on any super hot afternoon. But I ain't saying.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  5. Remind me again... by lionchild · · Score: 1

    Remind me again why our hot water heaters need to be online? Better yet, why don't we have on-demand ones that ..you know, just supply hot water, on demand; no connectivity required.

    While I can see the danger presented, let me ask this hot water question related question: Should we be just as concerned with remote execution of code that causes a hot water to overheat and either explode, or catch a house on fire?

    --
    Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
    1. Re:Remind me again... by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Remind me again why our hot water heaters need to be online?

      My guess is efficiency? If you work 8 to 5- no need to have the water heating up during that time. If you hurt your back on the job and come home early for a soak, you can use your phone to turn your heater on earlier than expected and be ready for you.

      Dunno- I have a brand new heater and it is a regular old dumb water heater- I'm not in the smart-water heater income range so didn't even consider it.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:Remind me again... by bobstreo · · Score: 1

      Remind me again why our hot water heaters need to be online? Better yet, why don't we have on-demand ones that ..you know, just supply hot water, on demand; no connectivity required.

      While I can see the danger presented, let me ask this hot water question related question: Should we be just as concerned with remote execution of code that causes a hot water to overheat and either explode, or catch a house on fire?

      For the ordinary homeowner no absolute benefit. For large multi-story apartment complexes, it could be valuable to minimize damages with quick notifications on leaks...

    3. Re:Remind me again... by pz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is no need for your hot water heater to be online. Nor for your watch. Or your lightbulbs. Or oven, piano, fireplace, thermostat, fire alarm, bed, doorbell, garage door opener, iron, washer, dryer, or any of the IoT things, really. It's all artifical demand, and hopefully like the artificial demand for 3D televisions that self-extinguished in the face of lackluster consumer reception, the IoT will go away once the market doesn't support it.

      Your refrigerator needs more insulation, not to run an operating system.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    4. Re:Remind me again... by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      To save you money by powering off when electrical demand is high in areas where demand management is in place, and to coordinate with other water heaters so they don't all turn on at once and cause the voltage to sag.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    5. Re:Remind me again... by zlives · · Score: 1

      you mean like when you call the ladlord for repair and he sends some one over right away next tuesday?

    6. Re:Remind me again... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Our home had this around 25 years ago: the electric water heater (for the shower) was hooked up to a bakelite box with 2 pushbuttons. The box would turn the heater on automatically twice daily, by means of a signal sent on the grid. The electric company did this in periods of low demand, and charged an extra low rate for the power used. (The pushbuttons were there to turn the heater on manually)

      This so called little-examined issue with hacked boxes all turning on at once came up later, but not that much later.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    7. Re:Remind me again... by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The grid is stabilized by the load having a positive reactance. When voltage drops, most old fashioned devices draw less power. This is a negative feedback that stabilizes the grid, when power is short, everybodies old fashioned devices naturally draw less power..

      Switching power supplies are the opposite. When voltage drops they draw more current to maintain their output voltage.

      When switching power supplies are more load than AC motors, the grid will have big problem.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Remind me again... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

      > Nor for your watch

      I personally don't wear a watch so I have no bias either way, but I could see some people wanting this internet connectivity in a watch in case they don't have their phone.

      For the rest, yup. Why the fuck would you want half of your (unsecured) house connected to the internet where any Tom, Dick, or Harry can hack it???

      IoT is just a disaster waiting to happen. Can we rename that stupid Internet of Things to be what it really is?

      IoT = In-waiting of Tragedy

      I guess the masses need to have their home hacked before they learn. :-/

    9. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are apparently places in this world where there are no district heating systems that channel waste heat from the power generation and other activities directly to the consumers in the area. I feel like living in efficiency paradise sometimes.

    10. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone in the smart-water-heater income range isn't going to spend their time micro-managing their water heater to save a few bucks.

    11. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hot water heater? Agreed, doesn't need to be online. Hell, it is gas anyway.
      Thermostat? Yes, need it online. Want stats on temperature, how long the heating or cooling ran, etc. Want to be able to enable it or disable it from wherever.

      Doorbell? Need it online. It has a camera, it rings our phones. We can monitor the package that was delivered, etc.

      My car? Need it online. I turn on the A/C 5 minutes before leaving the office so that the car isn't over 100 degrees inside.

      Bottom line there is a lot of demand for this stuff.

    12. Re:Remind me again... by JackieBrown · · Score: 2

      True. Conveniences are not needs. It doesn't mean that it's not nice to have.

      A smart home has been a dream since before the Jetsons.

      I have done a lot towards rewiring my house to connect it online. It's nice to be able to turn on one of my fan lights instead of all 3 in the morning. It's nice to be able to get notified when someone approaches my house or to see a video of the person at my door.

      It's nice when I go on vacation to be able to create a code to let some inside my house on the fly because the person who said they were going to feed my dogs got sick.

    13. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thermostat and a timer will solve that problem.

    14. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's nice when I go on vacation to be able to create a code to let some inside my house on the fly because the person who said they were going to feed my dogs got sick.

      I was with you right up until this. While I must admit that it would be nice to have this ability, I would never risk the safety of my dogs being dependent on my connectivity. I have multiple friends who have keys to my house only to be sure that my dogs are taken care of in any event.

      And while you may as well, I fear the average person is becoming too dependent on all of this IoT mania and we're not far away from reading news about horrible circumstances due to what should have been minor inconveniences.

    15. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think as a home owner I care about my house flooding because the dishwasher failed? Well, I do.

      --XYZZY--

    16. Re:Remind me again... by AlanBDee · · Score: 1

      Should we be just as concerned with remote execution of code that causes a hot water to overheat and either explode, or catch a house on fire?

      If you haven't seen it I recommend tracking down the Mythbusters episode on exploding water heaters. Essentially, they have a physical pressure release value that even if the heater is overheated then eventually steam would come out of that valve; assuming it hasn't been plugged or rusted shut. The steam could cause a problem because of the moisture but probably not a fire. However, if it does explode, as seen in that episode, it's far more devastating then you would think.

    17. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's all artifical demand, and hopefully like the artificial demand for 3D televisions that self-extinguished in the face of lackluster consumer reception, the IoT will go away once the market doesn't support it.

      I'm right there with you on the IoT nonsense, but am thoroughly disappointed that they killed off 3D TV in favor of UHD. I'll take the extra visual depth cues over a higher resolution that's indistinguishable from FHD from across the room any day.

      It doesn't help matters that some studios (Disney) don't release 3D versions of a lot of their movies (Marvel) in North America, forcing me to wait an extra month or so for the European release so I can order from overseas and wait several more weeks for delivery.

    18. Re:Remind me again... by lionchild · · Score: 1

      On-demand water heaters don't have relief valve, as they don't have tanks. They're either electric based or gas based heaters that heat a sink of pipes that water moves through when you turn on the faucet. So, if you over-ride and crank up the heating element without water movement, you have a heating element that isn't disappating, and that's boiling water inside your pipes.

      Tank-based water heaters are being phased out by law in most places in the US.

      --
      Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
    19. Re:Remind me again... by lionchild · · Score: 1

      How does that work in this case, where that management is compromised?

      --
      Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
    20. Re:Remind me again... by lionchild · · Score: 1

      I agree with efficiency, but that's a scheduling function, not something that should require being connected...

      If you hurt yourself and want the water warmed up before you get home, you'd still have to have someone draw the bath. I'm not sure this is something that should ever really need to be connected, even if you give it some 'smart' functions.

      --
      Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
    21. Re:Remind me again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But without all my stuff online, how can google track mean? For my own good, of course.

  6. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hooking a water heater to the Internet is just begging for trouble, and for what benefit? The risk/reward ratio seems completely out of whack here.

  7. It's 2018... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "At the Usenix Security conference this week"

    Pardon me, I was looking for the Unisex Security conference.

  8. why does a water heater need internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    who has their water heater connected to the internet and why?

    1. Re:why does a water heater need internet? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Same reason God needed a spaceship.

  9. Internet Water Heaters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have never seen an Internet-connected water heater, and I have no idea at all why anyone would want such a thing. A bimetallic thermostat and a heater coil need no Internet supervision.

    Also, electric water heaters are a vanishingly small proportion of all water heaters out there. The vast majority of them are fuel-oil, propane, and natural gas, because quite frankly, electric water heaters suck.

    1. Re:Internet Water Heaters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Operating water heaters with electricity is an extravagantly stupid waste of energy and money.

    2. Re:Internet Water Heaters? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Some folks have no choice, electric is all they have. I feel for them, but there are quite a few places where this is true.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Internet Water Heaters? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Operating water heaters with electricity is an extravagantly stupid waste of energy and money.

      Agreed, passive solar water heating is the most optimal method.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    4. Re:Internet Water Heaters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Also, electric water heaters are a vanishingly small proportion of all water heaters out there.
      How small? Got numbers? Pretty much everyone who doesn't have NG has an electric water heater.

  10. Hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, water heaters and air conditioners are controlled by thermostats that constantly switch them on and off all day and night long. Isn't it rather probable that there are already >1% fluctuations in load occurring organically all day long, seemingly without bringing down the grid?

    Furthermore, there are certain hours of the day where these devices all come on at once, or very nearly. That is, each morning as everyone gets up and starts getting ready for work/school, most air conditioners and water heaters will all come on at once. This is along with countless stoves, coffee makers, lights... The grid literally goes nominal to near maximum load within a one or two hour window every day. I'm suspecting that it's a 50% or greater spike but, no disaster.

    It's almost as if the grid builders and managers anticipate sudden fluctuations in load and compensate as needed to avoid the collapse of the grid. See load shedding.

  11. I don't buy it by Thomas+Charron · · Score: 2

    Sorry, but they where able to induce a bad problem when fed into software unpublished software models based on Polands energy grid from 12 years ago. The article infers that power companies cannot tolerate a 1% unpredictability, and that is simply inherently false.

    --
    -- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
    1. Re:I don't buy it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grid stability has been declining in Europe due to reliable producers being replaced with unpredictable renewables. An fairly small attack having a bigger impact doesn't sound too farfetched.

    2. Re:I don't buy it by xeoron · · Score: 1

      1% more does not add up. Didn't more efficient lights and electronics bring down the total usage of energy throughout the whole US by 2 to 3 percent for the last several years?

    3. Re:I don't buy it by Thomas+Charron · · Score: 1

      Exactly. In my opinion, they found a singular instance where they where able to cause a cascading failure, which I totally buy. Cascading failures have happened in the past, such as the entire east coast going dark in what, the early 2000's? But this is not very representative of a real world, repeatable scenario.

      --
      -- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
    4. Re: I don't buy it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There actually hasn't been a breakdown in the European grid as you're inferring. There is only been acknowledged means that management is required. The variations have been in maintaining a 50 hertz frequency, which ironically enough is synthesized as most renewable energy sources produce DC converting to AC.

    5. Re:I don't buy it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Efficiency changes gradually over time. This is talking about an instantaneous 1% change.

    6. Re:I don't buy it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comment reflects a misunderstanding of the research. The paper talks about synchronous changes in demand in a short period of time (think seconds), that can result in grid disruption, as opposed to demand changes over a period of years.

  12. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I play a video game called oxygen not included, in the game your little people need to create batteries and generators to power things like your air and water pumps/filters necessary for survival.

    I can immediately imagine the batteries draining dry in moments if all the devices were suddenly operating full bore, logic switches and sensors are used in the game to control when things happen to ensure they are not needlessly running. Lack of running devices results in death from asphyxiation or other environmental exposure including starvation.

    The real world situation would probably not go down much differently in this case, the hot water tanks , ac units, and home heating units blasting full bore, even a small % of the population would be disastrous. The problem would be the distributed nature, how do you shut down equipment, perhaps millions of equipment's on private property? You would have to cut the power to affected areas temporarily until enough of the units could be brought under control. If this overload and cut was timed during heat waves or other environmental extremes it could cause a cascading situation.

    A very effective power grid based attack, it will not kill necessarily but it could cause a rather dense crippling effect and the overhead of launching such an attack is relatively low. If these attacks were performed on a repeated basis the constant yo-yo'ing would be extremely costly until a solution could be found. I know that if just a single fridge inside a grocery store goes off that is roughly 50,000 $ worth of goods lost, losing all freezers from all grocery stores across a large area would cause a food crisis easily.

  13. Remends me of a story..... by bobbied · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I worked as a professional stage hand in college. It was an interesting job and a lot of fun. Got to meet a lot of interesting people, even a celebrity or two.

    One night, when working in a small town in western North Carolina, we didn't have much to do that night so we decided to play. We took every last light fixture we could, wired them up to the dimmers to "play" with them. The idea was to come up with a crazy rock and roll type light show to amuse ourselves and maybe learn some stuff by playing with the control board. It took hours to wire it all up and it was the wee hours of the morning when we where ready.

    Of course, we wanted the maximum effect when we turned all this on, so after a brief discussion, we agreed we'd turn every fixture we had wired on, all at once, or a "bump to full" and enjoy the blaze of glory we had created. The electrics op configured the scene on the old analog board by running all the channels to full and punched up the scene onto the main fader to await the queue that we where all ready to witness the spectacle of every light in the place going to full at the same instant.

    I'm sitting in the middle of the house with my co-workers and dramatically the house lights dim slowly. We all wait in anticipation of what we all know is coming. Then it happens, every light in the place begins to flash on in a blinding display as the "bump to full" and just as quickly the whole place goes black. We all thought the electrics op had bumped to black for effect, but eventually we hear him yell "What happened?" Looking around we realize that NOTHING is on except for the battery operated exit lights, nothing. The power was out.

    Walking out side you could see most of the town and it was also totally black. It stayed out for about half an hour, then popped back up.

    My guess is that we tricked the electric provider into shutting down the town by massively increasing the load in the dead of night and tripping protection systems, designed to avoid power surges and the voltage excursions that come with them. We thought about trying it again, but figured that knowingly doing something like that might be frowned on if we kept doing it. Besides, it was 2AM and time to get to bed, even for us stage hands.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:Remends me of a story..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We thought about trying it again, but figured that knowingly doing something like that might be frowned on if we kept doing it.

      All you would be doing is showing the power company that their protection scheme wasn't properly coordinated.

  14. There is a two step solution to this. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 2

    Step one is to isolate as much of the power grid as possible by decentralizing power generation and storage. Solar and battery for most even home would drastically reduce the potential fallout for any attack.

    Step two is to STOP FUCKING HOOKING SHIT UP TO THE INTERNET. Anything connected to the internet should be considered to be both unreliable and a liability.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:There is a two step solution to this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no,no, you have this all wrong.

      Step 1. Add blockchain to IoT devices
      Step 2. ???
      Step 3. Profit!

  15. Conclusions seem suspect by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

    A 1% spike would not be likely to cause problems, but (specific to California) 3% would safely cause curtailment calls. Even for that though, you would need to go 3% below nominal first and then turn everything on at once.

    The real vulnerability is in being able to game sub ~5-minute demand before the current systems can comfortably accommodate it. As we get more batteries on the grid, that risk dissipates pretty quickly.

    If it could be done with 1% load variation, the markets would have figured out how to game it already.

  16. Fit For Purpose But, What Purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Washers made to save water but, they do a poor job of getting clothes clean.

    Air conditioners built to save electricity but, they do a poor job of keeping the house cool.

    Lights made to save electricity but, they don't put out adequate light and have piss poor CRI.

    Today's goods may be described as fit for purpose but, what is their purpose? Is a washer supposed to save water or clean clothes?

    For those that will claim; why not both? The answer is simply that you can't have it both ways. Saving water compromises how well it cleans. We're not nearly as good as the marketing may have led you to believe.

  17. what might happen if ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Yes, yes, yes, yes, and what if the Core is made of cheese?

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  18. Not the primary issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The primary issue is, eventually, one of these geniuses is going to tie the temp/pressure fail-safes into the "smart" part of the control circuit.

    On the bright side, it'll create a pretty strong effect of natural selection against anyone who buys smarthome crap. And the biggest class action lawsuit in history.

  19. Why the hell would my water heater by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    be connected to the Internet? Also, there is no way in hell even 10% of water heaters are ever going to connect to the internet. Most are in apartments (since those have the densest populations) and as somebody who lives in an apartment I can tell you they use the cheapest ones you can buy.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  20. who's da real conspiracy mongerers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The MSM puts out loads of articles chronicling theoretical, but highly improbable and impractical scary hacker threats to keep the public anxious and afraid, but has colluded with silicon valley tech companies to deplatform Alex Jones.

  21. Use the waterchain to fix this by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    We just need to install a fourth unnecessary level, using the WaterChain, to encrypt our water heaters and home furnaces from remote hacking. Then we can put all the credentials files on a laptop and lose it in an airport, exposing all of our national water infrastructure.

    Cold showers in January are a good thing, right?

    (caveat: passive solar water heaters will still work, as will disconnected PV water heaters running off grid)

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  22. STOP calling them hackers.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    these are criminals. Do you call bank robbers "hackers," because they "hacked" their way into the vault (with a hacksaw no less!)?

    Quantum and hacker are not what you think. Also: literally doesn't mean what you think either.

  23. Blockchain can solve this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The solution to this problem lies in the blockchain! I am sure that blockchain technology can be leveraged to provide sound solutions to the problem of externally hacked water heaters. Blockchain technology is robust and secure and will keep hackers out while also creating new ways to generate revenue streams from water heating. Blockchain is the answer.

    Blockchain!

  24. Flawed Assumptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using the city of Los Angeles as an example, minimum load on a very hot day is like 3,000MWs at 4am and peak load is roughly 6,500MWs at 4pm. Even linearly that is an increase of about 300MW per hour which is 10%hour, and the actual increase is much steeper at times, being more like 600MW which is near 20% per hour during peak climb.

    Per NERC BAAL standards LA needs to keep it's generation withing +/- ~150 MW of each other. So if they are high in band (over generating) at +150MW, they could drop low in bad to -150MW and not have to do anything (depending on interconnection frequency). That is a 10-5% drop/ride with no requirement to even add or take off generation.

    Finally being interconnected is a benefit here more than a curse, the more people generating the more stable the system, the more paths for current to flow the more tolerant the grid is.

    TLDR: The grid can easily handle a 1% change, and being interconnected is part of the reason it is able to do that.

    References:
    LADWP all time peak news: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-power-outage-heat-wave-20170831-story.html
    LADWP Min / Max Load: http://ezweb.ladwp.com/Admin/Uploads/Load%20Forecast/2017/10/2017%20Retails%20Sales%20Forecast_Final.pdf
    NERC L10: https://www.nerc.com/comm/OC/RS%20Landing%20Page%20DL/Related%20Files/2017%20Frequency%20Bias%20Settings%20and%20L10%20Values.pdf

  25. What grid? by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

    I can believe that all the utilities in California may be well interconnected, but Canada is 20 times the land area and there is no real nationwide grid. Some provinces have more interconnects than others, but there are probably as many interconnects to US states as there are domestic ones.

    1. Re:What grid? by PPH · · Score: 2

      Canada

      The grid is that pattern on waffles that holds extra maple syrup.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:What grid? by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

      That is what sets them apart from pancakes.

  26. Solution: don't buy these things at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't need them and shouldn't even want them. Don't buy them in the first place.

  27. No computer necessary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just find the VHF frequency the local power company uses to manage groups of residential off-peak stored electric heating units (not difficult if you have one), and jam that frequency.

    The heating units default to "online" when they lose their signal.

    This would only work in the winter though, when "online" would be synonymous with drawing power.

    1. Re:No computer necessary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PS: Likely it's the same system used for managing water heaters and air conditioners, so this vulnerability would indeed exist year round.

    2. Re:No computer necessary. by PPH · · Score: 1

      The heating units default to "online" when they lose their signal.

      But that's the same as an old school thermostatically controlled heater. If people aren't using hot water, that works out to the heaters coming on occasionally to maintain temperature.

      If you could shut them all down for eight hours, allow them to cool and then command them all back online, bad things might ensue. But only if your system has become so weak that it can't take the black start load. My (crappy) utility frequently drops entire cities for days at a time during the winter. They think nothing of putting the wires back up and closing breakers on many square miles of residential loads. Lights are dim for a while but that's about it.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  28. and angry ticks could fly out of my nipples! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and angry ticks could fly out of my nipples!

  29. Why does everything need to be commonly connected? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My thermostat can be connected to WiFi. I haven't done this. I can program it already, and can manually adjust as needed. The "convenience" of changing it remotely has extremely little value to me, and definitely not worth making accessible to hackers.

  30. Good thing ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In a series of simulations, the researchers imagined what might happen if hackers controlled a botnet composed of thousands of silently hacked consumer internet of things devices, particularly power-hungry ones like air conditioners, water heaters, and space heaters.

    Well, it's a good thing that you'd have to be a complete fucking moron to buy any of those things which are "internet of things".

    Fuck all of this connected shit, why would I want any of it? It will be shit quality, with shit security, produced by complete morons and assholes more worried about shipping a trendy product than a good product.

    There is no "internet of things", only bullshit marketing hype and insecure products. Utter garbage sold to idiots who need to have a constant stream of shiny things.

    Why the fuck I'd want to own any of this garbage is beyond me. People who want to control their world with their goddamned phones need lives, and deserve to be hacked.

  31. I turned my water heater off awhile ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cold showers

  32. Electric cars can do the same, no botnet required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every plug-in hybrid and electric car has a time-based delayed-charging feature. This is so they can charge when electric rates are low. Everyone that I know sets their car to start charging at the same time, right when the rates change.

  33. You can also target resonances by gweihir · · Score: 1

    All this has, I don't know, been known for 5-10 years, maybe longer?

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:You can also target resonances by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is slashdot. If they discovered something that's been generally known for 5-10 years, it's better than their normal average.

  34. Electric cars by pointybits · · Score: 2

    Electric cars plugged in to high-current outlets waiting to charge off-peak, which also have remote controls to run the heater from the mains to pre-heat the car, would be another very high-demand load, though hopefully harder to exploit.

  35. Executive summary by sootman · · Score: 1

    tl;dr: hackers taking over millions of anything is bad.

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
  36. You and the utilities want "internet" control by FeelGood314 · · Score: 1

    The cost of electricity in most places people live in the USA will vary between -$0.02 and $7.00 per KWh. Some places even more. The utility really hates it when they have to pay $7/KWh and you should too because the price will be passed on to you eventually. So it would be nice if you shut off your electric water heater or your pool pump or turned up your thermostat when this happens. Most of your meters run a protocol called ZigBee Smart Energy. It's a low power, low bandwidth protocol. It contains commands to ask devices to cut back on power consumption (Demand Response Load Control (DRLC)) and it also has commands to tell devices the price of electricity. DRLC commands should always have a randomization factor so that even if every device received the command at the same time they would all react to it slowly over a period of time. Similarly, if the price jumps, smart devices should randomly adjust their behaviour to reduce their demand sometime before or after the price change.

    Disclosure: I'm a contributor to the Smart Energy standard.

  37. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously...who uses electric hot water heaters and space heaters. And why the hell would those devices have any form of internet access anyway?

    If hackers do use that technique to take down a power grid, they're doing the world a favor because any society that brainlessly stupid doesn't deserve electricity.

  38. Not really surprising. by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

    When "smart" isn't. I'm happy I still have all "dumb" appliances because at least some schmuck reaching in through the internet and taking control of them is something I don't have to worry about. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars to be able to adjust my thermostat from bed, instead of getting up, walking downstairs and pressing a button on its face, (or moving a lever) is not a SMART trade-off. I don't need my refrigerator to order groceries for me. I don't want my water-heater talking to my toaster; the two have NOTHING to discuss. The possibility of a conspiracy between my electric razor and the hedge-trimmer is something I don't even want to think about.

    Sometimes what seems like a step forwards is just someone figuring a creative way to get you to buy some shit you didn't need with money you didn't have. The only thing I want, in terms of advancement in this area, is to have my own local source of power, from, i.e., solar panels and storage of the same, so it doesn't matter when a bunch of morons let script-kiddies or whatever, crash the entire electrical grid.

    I don't trust most of my countrymen to sit the right way on a toilet seat. These days, I'm convinced they could even fuck that up.

    --
    Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  39. Doable with existing load management systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many utilities have arrangements with customers to disconnect high-power loads when requested. This even extends to residential customers, where it's usually applied to air conditioners and electric air or water heaters.

    They're commanded over the power line, not the public Internet, but it's easy to generate a load spike with them. Just force them off for a few hours to ensure the thermostats are all on, then re-enable them all at once.

    There's a simple workaround, fortunately: if the individual load switches have a small amount of randomization (e.g. "wait a number of half-cycles seconds equal to the last four digits of your serial number before turning on"), that would eliminate this attack,

    (The serial-number-based randomization only works if the only command possible is a global one, which I suspect applies to existing powerline signals.. If you can give individual commands, the randomization needs to be unpredictable to an attacker.)

  40. Water heaters using excess energy by poobah75 · · Score: 1

    While I understand the security related downfalls of IOT, there actually are some potential benefits to having a fleet of water heaters connected to the internet. In the UK, there is a government trial/pilot program in place testing smart water tanks for storing excess grid energy. https://youtu.be/z1Z4JCoPAGc

  41. How an intern hacked the powergrid (SHA2017) by Frans+Faase · · Score: 1
  42. Usenix is an anagram for Unisex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Usenix is an anagram for Unisex. Says it all.

  43. why we need interconnected water heaters anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why on earth would you put your air conditioner or water heater on the internet anyway?

    If you can't sort out how turn it off when you're leaving the house, and wait a few minutes for the water to heat up and air to cool down when you get home, then you should be living in a cave.