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Climate Change Has Doubled the Frequency of Ocean Heatwaves (nature.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Nature: Scientists analyzed satellite-based measurements of sea surface temperature from 1982 to 2016 and found that the frequency of marine heatwaves had doubled. These extreme heat events in the ocean's surface waters can last from days to months and can occur across thousands of kilometers. If average global temperatures increase to 3.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels by the end of the century, as researchers currently project, the frequency of ocean heatwaves could increase by a factor of 41. In other words, a one-in-one-hundred-day event at pre-industrial levels of warming could become a one-in-three-day event. The study has been published in the journal Nature.

24 of 260 comments (clear)

  1. If the powers preaching climate change by Jarwulf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    doom really cared about it we'd have gone balls to the wall nuclear power decades ago and have safe hi tech nukepower oozing out of every orifice. But nope, instead they thought a better idea would be to use it as a chance to keep pushing to consolidate power and control in a few hands and tactics that have failed before and will continue to fail again like guilt people into living like monks to save a drop of carbon here and there.

    1. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by MrKaos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      doom really cared about it we'd have gone balls to the wall nuclear power decades ago and have safe hi tech nukepower oozing out of every orifice.

      Nuclear power doesn't solve climate change, it offsets the carbon problem into a radio-isotope problem, which is worse that a carbon problem. Nuclear Energy doesn't work because it doesn't provide an energy return on the energy invested. This is mainly because water cooled reactors are less than one percent efficient wrt the energy potential in the fuel.

      There are other reasons, heat load on the environment is another. Nuclear looks great until you begin to understand and analyze it, then it looks like a really bad idea.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    2. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Informative

      So much wrong in so short a post.

      Lets start
      1. Nothing "Solves" climate change. The climate is going to keep changing no matter what.
      2. Nuclear in this context is meant to eliminate CO2 emissions which are measured in megatons vs Rad waste which is measured in tons.
      3. Nuclear provides the best energy return currently available
      4. Nuclear power current designs hit 45% efficiency https://energyeducation.ca/enc...

      Thank you for being an example.

    3. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by MrKaos · · Score: 4, Informative

      1. Nothing "Solves" climate change. The climate is going to keep changing no matter what.

      Agreed.

      2. Nuclear in this context is meant to eliminate CO2 emissions which are measured in megatons vs Rad waste which is measured in tons.

      Current stockpiles of pu239 is 70,000 tons, current stockpiles of u235 is 700,000 plus tons, current stockpiles of radioactive mine tailings is also in megatons. Can you point to any Nuclear Industry experts who specialize in dealing with these issues?

      The various mechanisms the man made radio isotope make it into the foodchain is process called bio-accumulate. If that wasn't a problem then we would be able to swim in places like Lake Karachay. Then there is the National Geographic article which took an inventory of the world nuclear waste and found that there is enough to fill a freight train that goes 1 and a half times around the equator of the earth.

      Since the nuclear industry do not have a solution to this issue Nuclear energy is not a viable solution to the worlds energy needs. All it means is we have two problems instead of one.

      3. Nuclear provides the best energy return currently available

      No. The peer reviewed science from over 10 universities around the world beg to differ in a study that uses established methods for industrial energetic input. Nuclear power provides no energetic return on energy invested.

      4. Nuclear power current designs hit 45% efficiency https://energyeducation.ca/enc...

      Speaking of context, lets go back to the original context of what I said: This is mainly because water cooled reactors are less than one percent efficient wrt the energy potential in the fuel. Specifically I am referring to burnup rate of the nuclear fuel in the once through cycle. Now the wiki article is particularly generous saying that it is 5%, which I don't agree with however it makes my point adequately.

      Second I read the page you sent, thank you. The 45% you are referring to are for reactors that are not deployed and not licensed to produce electricity. Any scaling of Gen IV reactor technology will be occurring very slowly *IF* and thats a big *IF* the materials technology come through to produce them (which I hope it does come through).

      So much wrong in so short a post.

      If I post an opinion on Nuclear Power, I check my facts before I post.

      Thank you for being an example.

      No, Thank you!

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    4. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If this wasn't posted by MrKaos, one might mistake it for satire, as every last statement within is exactly backwards. Well, except the "My ism, it's full of beliefs.", which is spot on.

      Nuclear "waste" is the best kind of waste; it is small in volume, easily managed, and disappears naturally. Once the fuel is consumed completely--and this can be done in advanced reactors--almost all of the remaining fission products decay to stability after a few centuries. Even in a world powered 100% by nuclear, the amount of "waste" will reach a steady state, where the fission products are decaying at the same rate that fuel is being loaded. The amount will never increase beyond that, and it will still be small and manageable. It will also contain many useful elements that have substantial economic value after they stabilize. (and some are even more valuable before they stabilize, for medical and other applications)

    5. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by Crashmarik · · Score: 2

      Current stockpiles of pu239 is 70,000 tons, current stockpiles of u235 is 700,000 plus tons, current stockpiles of radioactive mine tailings is also in megatons. Can you point to any Nuclear Industry experts who specialize in dealing with these issues?

      That isn't an issue that's fuel, and thousand is not mega it's kilo. Do you want to throw in mine tailings for less energy dense fuels ? Or do you wish to just keep on embarrassing yourself here ?

      No. The peer reviewed science from over 10 universities around the world beg to differ [stormsmith.nl]

      Peer reviewed does not mean correct. The IAEA disagrees https://inis.iaea.org/collecti...

      Speaking of context, lets go back to the original context of what I said: This is mainly because water cooled reactors are less than one percent efficient wrt the energy potential in the fuel. Specifically I am referring to burnup rate of the nuclear fuel [wikipedia.org] in the once through cycle

      No you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand, that was the thermodynamic efficiency of the power plant. I figured you wouldn't recognize it for what it is and you didn't disappoint.

    6. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by MrKaos · · Score: 2

      Can you point to any Nuclear Industry experts who specialize in dealing with these issues?

      Or do you wish to just keep on embarrassing yourself here ?

      I thought not.

      That isn't an issue that's fuel, and thousand is not mega it's kilo.

      oh boy, here we go again with the magic breeder technology that may have worked if it wasn't lobbied out of existence by the oil and coal industry - quick b lame the nimbys and greenies for ruining the nuclear future you idealize.

      Do you want to throw in mine tailings for less energy dense fuels ?

      First mine tailings have to be created to extract the Uranium ore. Second a lot of CO is created in that process. Third it leaks radon gas permanently and that usually ends rolling down hill to any water source because gravity. Radon is highly water soluble.

      Peer reviewed does not mean correct. The IAEA disagrees

      The IAEA's charter says it is an organization that is dedicated to promoting Nuclear Power. That means it is biased towards promoting nuclear power. Or, shock, horror are you going to suggest that they ignore their own charter and NOT promote Nuclear Power?

      No you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand, that was the thermodynamic efficiency of the power plant.

      No, you shouldn't misrepresent claims whilst you're being condescending because it makes it much harder to forgive your mistakes when you act like a jerk.

      Considering that you are referring to the thermodynamic efficiency of GenIV reactors that aren't approved for producing electricity your counterargument demonstrates your lack of understanding of the technology. The primary reasons for *having* a GenIV reactor is specifically *because* they have a high fuel burn-up rate than water cooled reactors. I'm not interested in the thermodynamic efficiency of the plant, I'm interested in the burn-up rate of the reactor and what materials technology extends the lifespan of the reactor core to 100+ years. That's what drives efficiency into the fuel cycle. If you don't understand why then how can you argue for the technology?

      I figured you wouldn't recognize it for what it is and you didn't disappoint.

      You Nuclear Ideologists always have to get personal don't you. You can't talk about the merits and short comings of the technology just kick the magical thinking into overdrive and ridicule anyone that disagrees. For once maybe you should consider the flaws of Nuclear power and propose ways to fix them, instead of labeling me as anti-nuke to justify all slurs and avoid the issues.

      Disown, insult, fuzz argument, repeat. That's why the arguments of Nuclear Ideologists have zero credibility and the Nuclear Industry can never evolve.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    7. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by Crashmarik · · Score: 2

      You Nuclear Ideologists always have to get personal don't you. You can't talk about the merits and short comings of the technology just kick the magical thinking into overdrive and ridicule anyone that disagrees. For once maybe you should consider the flaws of Nuclear power and propose ways to fix them, instead of labeling me as anti-nuke to justify all slurs and avoid the issues.

      Actually I did consider the flaws of nuclear power. It's just very hard to talk to an idiot that thinks nuclear power plants don't produce net power. I mean it takes a certain kind of crazy to take a look at say France a country that is almost entirely powered by nuclear power and has the lowest cost of electricity in the EU, and say nope they don't actually exist.

      Oh and P.S.

      Considering that you are referring to the thermodynamic efficiency of GenIV reactors

      Wrong again, would you like to try to demonstrate that you actually understand what thermodynamic efficiency means in this context and why even more importantly it's not relevant or at all important ?

    8. Re:If the powers preaching climate change by tbannist · · Score: 2

      No. The peer reviewed science from over 10 universities around the world beg to differ in a study that uses established methods for industrial energetic input. Nuclear power provides no energetic return on energy invested.

      I don't think I'm following your reasoning here. It looks like you're referring to Energy Return on Energy Investment (EROEI) graph in section 12, however, the graph for Nuclear EROEI seems is based on the assumption that high quality uranium to fuel nuclear power plants will run out in the year 2070. That makes the EROEI for the plants go to 0 at that point (which is worst than break even, because it represents a 100% loss of the invested energy). I looked for a better source that would give me some comparison values and I found this meta-analysis. In it, the authors conclude that the average nuclear plant has a 14:1 EROEI (look for figure 3 for the comparison graph), you source has a EROIE of about 2.5 for current plants, which is much lower. It's slightly lower than wind and coal and slightly higher than solar PV. As an aside, I found an article on Forbes that claimed nuclear had an EROEI of 75, but I think it's an editorial from a nuclear industry advocate...

      It's important to note that the EROEI for coal, natural gas, and oil are all declining as it becomes more expensive (and energy-intensive) to access new deposits. The EROEI for nuclear may also decline, I can't be sure if the original analysis included the energy cost to store nuclear waste (What energy for storage? Well, you probably need to employ guards at the storage site for at least 60 years, for example, and they probably like heating, air conditioning, lights and maybe a fridge to keep their lunch in). The Solar PV and the wind values should increase as better construction techniques and materials decrease the energy investment cost of materials.

      So can you provide a clear explaination why you think nuclear has an EROIE of 1?

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
  2. Re:Nice Scaremongering by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I briefly examined the references and as best I can tell, the term "marine heat wave" is a term invented in while cloth in 2016.

    This isn't something researchers have been investigating for decades, and given the youth of the proposed idea, there is very little empirical data (their model results are not data) at all.

    Maybe in the future will will learn that this is valuable science. At present, it is nothing more than problematic speculation, contradicting some real science.

  3. Pettyfogging Suicidalist by Capsaicin · · Score: 2

    SuperKendall is correct ....

    Where 'correct' is newspeak for lying trough his suicidal teeth!

    Instead of going dig back and digging up 2007 4th Assessment Report (the 5th AR was published in 2013, the 6th AR is due out next month), let's look at what the the IPCC Synthesis Report from 2014 has to say:

    The increase of global mean surface temperature by the end of the 21st century (2081–2100) relative to 1986–2005 is likely to be 0.3C to 1.7C under RCP2.6, 1.1C to 2.6C under RCP4.5, 1.4C to 3.1C under RCP6.0 and 2.6C to 4.8C under RCP8.5 9 . The Arctic region will continue to warm more rapidly than the global mean.

    So anywhere form 0.3C under the most optimistic to 4.8C in the worst case scenario. In point of fact the target of (no more than) 2C is what humanity is currently in the process of missing.

    The write-up claims, the 3.5 degrees is the current projections by some unspecified researchers. There no "ifs" about that write-up's claims

    If you want to split hairs like that, let's split them even finer!

    SuperKendall didn't write that the summary claims that current projections of up to 3.5C exist. SuperKendall wrote that "the summary claims ... likley heating will be ... 3.5C" Which is something very, very different from what the words "If average global temperatures increase to 3.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels by the end of the century, as researchers currently project ..." means. [And I've highlighted the IF "about that write-up's claims" (yes, it's not an IF about the existence of said projections, duh) for your benefit.]

    So sorry Mi, no banana.

    --
    Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  4. Re:Nice Scaremongering by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 2

    The term doesn't matter. As the summary states, the data has been around longer. So no, your claim that "new term = new study" is complete bullshit.

    --
    Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
  5. Re:Nice Scaremongering by riverat1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    As we came out of the latest ice age the earth has been warming up continuously and will keep doing so.

    No, as we came out of the last glaciation temperatures hit a peak about 8,000 years ago during the Holocene climatic optimum as you would expect from an examination of Milankovitch cycles. Since then temperatures were slowly cooling toward the next glacial maximum. They stopped cooling when human emissions of greenhouse gases (primarily CO2) increased to the point of overriding the current cooling effects of Milankovitch cycles. The increase in ocean acidification shows that the oceans are still absorbing more CO2 than they release.

  6. Re:Problem solved! Move along, nothing to see. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 4, Informative

    China and a handful of other nations have a near monopoly on the materials needed to make wind and solar power cheap
    How do you come to that retarded idea?

    Solar panels are made out of: sand!
    Wind turbines from carbon fiber positioned on steel masts.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  7. I call it Just Right-itis by Solandri · · Score: 2

    For the current stance of environmentalists to make sense, there needs to be just the right amount of climate change. Enough that we need to stop using fossil fuels ASAP. But not so much that we need to switch over completely to nuclear power ASAP. By their reasoning, the rate of climate change falls within a narrow band in between, where we must stop using fossil fuels, but we still have plenty of time to develop renewable power technologies so they become economically feasible.

    That's the kind of messed up reasoning you come up with when you start with a conclusion ("we must develop renewables"), and then create a rationale to justify your conclusion. It's gradually becoming clear that we're far outside that narrow band, and need to go all-out nuclear to save life on Earth. That is, the fate of life on Earth is more important than your renewable power agenda.

    Remember, nuclear power doesn't have to be the end game. All we need is to switch to it quickly enough to break our fossil fuel addiction and arrest non-cyclical CO2 emissions. Once we've done that and the global climate is no longer in danger, then we can develop renewable power at our leisure. And when it (and battery technology) becomes capable of taking over base load, we can use it to phase out nuclear power. This "the only acceptable solution is renewables" mentality is dangerous.

  8. Re:Nice Scaremongering by Layzej · · Score: 2

    The write-up claims, the 3.5 degrees is the current projections by some unspecified researchers. There no "ifs" about that write-up's claims — SuperKendall is correct, while your narrative falls apart.

    SuperKendall's own reference shows scenario A2 which projects ~3.5C by the end of the century. See table SPM.3: A2 scenario best estimate = 3.4, likely range = 2.0 – 5.4. The A1FI scenario has a best estimate of 4C by end of century.

    How much we warm depends on how much we emit. Warming will not stop at the end of the century unless emissions cease, so it is only a matter of time before we reach 3.5C. We've warmed about 1.2C since the 1850s. Two thirds of that has happened in the last 50 years. At the current rate of warming since the 1980s - even assuming no further accelleration - we will hit 2.5C by the end of the century. Again, where we end up will depend on how much CO2 we emit.

  9. Re:Nice Scaremongering by Layzej · · Score: 2

    It's blips in the noise.

    The rate of global heat accumulation is equivalent to about 4 Hiroshima bomb detonations per second. That blip represents over 2.5 billion atomic bomb detonations worth of heat accumulating in the Earth's climate system since 1998, It's a lot of energy.

    The wide range of projections arise because warming depends on how much we emit. We can decide to limit emissions and reduce warming. Or not. It's up to us.

  10. Marine Heat Wave by Layzej · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not sure why he has a problem with the coining of a term. Does he prefer they use another phrase, or rather that they not study the phenomenon at all? See no evil hear no evil I suppose? Regardless of what we call it, (and "marine heat wave" seems like a practical enough name) the evidence for the phenomenon is clear in the satellite data as well as in the economic impacts.

  11. IPCC projections by Layzej · · Score: 2

    In 2007 IPCC FAR projected 0.2C/decade over the next two decades. So far we've seen 0.3C/decade since 2007, but it's early yet.

  12. emissions determine warming. by Layzej · · Score: 2

    Climate sensitivity is about 3C for a doubling of CO2 with an likely range of about 30% on either side (not 100%). So probably between 2 and 4C. However, it is a "right-skewed distribution" suggesting that if carbon dioxide concentrations double, the probability of very large increases in temperature is greater than the probability of very small increases. So to the extent that there is uncertainty, it is not our friend.

    Ultimately though, how much warming will depend on how much we emit. We can decide to limit emissions and minimize warming. Or not. It's up to us.

    1. Re:emissions determine warming. by Layzej · · Score: 2

      Wrong, but if you are interested in tricks you could carefully select a subset of studies to paint that narrative. Rather than tricks, I've cited the literature. For example, here's a study from this year that confirms a central figure of around 3C, and reduces uncertainty to the point where the probability of ECS being less than 1.5 degrees Celsius to less than 3 per cent, and the probability of ECS exceeding 4.5 degrees Celsius to less than 1 per cent.

  13. Re:Problem solved! Move along, nothing to see. by blindseer · · Score: 3, Informative

    China and a handful of other nations have a near monopoly on the materials needed to make wind and solar power cheap

    How do you come to that retarded idea?

    https://www.worldatlas.com/art...
    https://www.statista.com/stati...

    Solar panels are made out of: sand!

    No, solar panels are made of silicon and the USA produces very little of it. The kind the USA does produce is predominately low grade used in producing steel and aluminum.
    https://minerals.usgs.gov/mine...

    Wind turbines from carbon fiber positioned on steel masts.

    And with rare earth magnets on top of those steel masts.
    https://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/...

    Mining rare earth metals means also digging up a lot of other nasty minerals, like thorium and uranium, that unless there is a market for them they can contaminate the environment. What on earth could we possibly do with all this uranium and thorium? I'm just tossing out an idea here, nuclear power?

    The USA does not have the capacity to produce solar panels, and has limited capacity to produce windmills, without imported materials. On the other hand the USA already produces several nuclear power plants every year to supply it's nuclear powered navy. Increasing the capacity to produce nuclear power in the USA is near trivial, we need only remove the political barriers to larger production. To produce more wind and solar in the USA would take years and billions of dollars to build the plants that can turn sand into PV panels and ore into rare earth magnets.

    The monopoly that China has on silicon and rare earth metals is not in the raw material in the ground, it's in the factories that turn that raw material into something valuable. Overturning that monopoly will take lots of money and time in making factories.

    The entire world is relying on China to play nice for it's supply of wind and solar power. By destroying their ability to produce domestic nuclear power these nations place a very vital resource, energy, at the whimsy of China. Much of Europe is now reliant on Chinese solar and Russian natural gas for energy. If there is ever a trade dispute then I can expect to see Europe get real dark and cold.

    --
    I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
  14. Re:Nice Scaremongering by Layzej · · Score: 2

    Warming will not stop at the end of the century unless emissions cease, so it is only a matter of time before we reach 3.5C.

    Warming will not stop even if emissions cease, because the warming comes not from the emission of CO2 or heat, but because of the trapping of heat from the sun by that CO2.

    To clarify, I meant further warming. And yes, AGW is expected to stop (approximately) when we get to zero emissions because of terrestrial and marine syncs:

    A widely held misconception is that given the approximately 1 C warming to date, and considering the committed warming (warming that will inevitably happen) concealed by ocean thermal inertia, the 1.5 C target of the Paris Agreement is already impossible. However, it is cumulative emissions that define peak warming. When carbon emissions cease, terrestrial and marine sinks are projected to draw down atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2), approximately cancelling the lagging warming. Although the sign of this ‘zero emissions commitment’ is uncertain, its contribution can be neglected for low-CO2 scenarios. Therefore, at least when considering CO2 emissions in isolation, keeping below 1.5 C of warming will remain physically achievable until the point that it is reached.