Slashdot Mirror
Tesla Short Sellers Actually Made Over $1 Billion After Musk's Taking-Private Tweet (fortune.com)
An anonymous reader quotes Fortune:
Investors betting that Tesla stock will lose value -- so-called "shorts" -- have made $1.2 billion since CEO Elon Musk first tweeted about taking the company private. Much of that gain came on Friday, after the New York Times published a revealing, emotional interview with Musk that drove Tesla stock down nearly 9%. The tally comes from a report released Friday by stock analytics firm S3 Partners. The Friday collapse helped reverse a price spike after Musk's August 7 Tweet saying he was "considering taking Tesla private at $420," about 18% higher than the stock's market value at the time.
According to S3, the subsequent surge in Tesla stock cost short positions $1.3 billion. But soon after, it became clear that Musk had exaggerated the certainty of his funding, and the SEC began a probe of his statements, driving the stock back down. On Friday, the Times interview with Musk detailed his 120-hour work weeks, lack of social life, and reliance on Ambien to sleep. That sent the stock down 9% in one day, for a total drop of 19% over 10 days. That gave $2.5 billion back to the shorts, for a net gain of $1.2 billion since Musk's going-private tweet.
Tesla remains the most-shorted stock on the American stock exchanges, and the researchers note that only 4% of shorts have actually cashed in these on-paper gains.
According to S3, the subsequent surge in Tesla stock cost short positions $1.3 billion. But soon after, it became clear that Musk had exaggerated the certainty of his funding, and the SEC began a probe of his statements, driving the stock back down. On Friday, the Times interview with Musk detailed his 120-hour work weeks, lack of social life, and reliance on Ambien to sleep. That sent the stock down 9% in one day, for a total drop of 19% over 10 days. That gave $2.5 billion back to the shorts, for a net gain of $1.2 billion since Musk's going-private tweet.
Tesla remains the most-shorted stock on the American stock exchanges, and the researchers note that only 4% of shorts have actually cashed in these on-paper gains.
ask your nerd god why can't he manage
Money != brains. If you can't get rich by running an unregulated bank, one of your parents was not a primate.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
What Musk did over Twitter is first and foremost unbecoming of a CEO and is outright manipulation of the stock price.
It's clear that he didn't have a buyer to bring the firm public. This was him Tweeting up late at night buzzed out of his mind on Ambien or tripping balls on LSD.
He's become dysfunctional, has allowed women of ill repute to pollute his life, and is allowing his ego to be propped up by his cult of personality who believe he is the second coming.
The whole thing is quickly becoming like Theranos and it's a complete and utter shame given what he is capable of.
What Musk did over Twitter is first and foremost unbecoming of a CEO and is outright manipulation of the stock price.
In your opinion.
That's the problem with all the Tesla news nowadays - there's actually very little going on, what we see in the media is opinion dressed up as news. And if it's bad, the shorts will run with it.
(source)
Really, there's nothing in the news anyone can trust about Tesla nowadays. After the NYT interview I saw these competing headlines:
"Musk says Tesla had an excruciating year, and the worst is yet to come" (one source, among many)
"Musk says Tesla had an excruciating year, and the worst is over" (one source, among many)
Which of these is an accurate portrayal of Tesla's future?
Don't believe any of it. Given the timeline above, it's really hard to see how Musk could be charged with a crime - SEC is civil, not criminal, the FBI would have to get involved for that. It's also hard to see how the SEC could impose a fine. There *might* be an issue with the exact definition of "secured", but it's a) moot, b) can be argued either way, and c) it took the SEC 5 years to bring down [Theranos CEO] Elisabeth Holmes for much more severe problems, they aren't likely to move any faster with Tesla. Five years from now we can worry whether this has made any difference to Tesla.
It's clear that Tesla only has to weather the next 4 months or so, and then be clear of all this nonsense.
Until then, just ignore the rabble - it's only noise anyway.
Has the short interest in Tesla decreased? If so, then shorts have cashed out, having a much better position than a week ago. But I'm not under the impression that the shorts have been exiting. It seems that there is a large contingent that really expects Tesla to outright fail, and they want to ride the stock down to zero.
There is a contingent that deeply wants to see Tesla fail because they view it as part of the environmental movement, and they see the whole movement as a leftist attack on free enterprise and their way of life. A company like Tesla being successful is counter to their worldview, and they desperately want to see electric cars fail. I have no evidence to prove that there's a connection to the Tesla shorts, but I suspect there is. I suppose that's part of the reason I so desperately want to see the shorts get bankrupted.
I love the bitter armchair ceo's on /. Go do something.
Some of Tesla's well-connected investors had some one make him an offer he couldn't refuse to tank the stock price with this embarrassing interview.
Back when I frequented Drudge Report, if a link took me to infowars.com I would navigate away. It's a little crazy over there.
I agree with you completely. After the ban, I've been looking at his site occasionally to see what all the fuss is about, and just can't get interested in any of it.
Problem is, free speech means everyone gets to have their say. Banning Infowars was wrong, it was the 3rd click of the censorship ratchet, and it needs to be discussed in the arena of civil rights.
I think the second one(*) was taking away DailyStormer's domain registration and not letting them use it.
Even the Electronic Freedom Foundation worried over censoring DailyStormer.
We're well into the 3rd line of that "first they came for..." poem, and we really need to get this sorted out before the internet turns into a leftist utopian playland, where everyone agrees and speaking out is prohibited.
We really need to get this sorted out.
Maybe the government will step in and impose regulations.
It seems like we're headed that way.
(*) First one was MasterCard and Visa dropping Wikileaks simultaneously after posting the "collateral murder" video, isolating Wikileaks from $11 million in donations that were coming in.
both the short sellers and the flip speculators for their contribution to improving society. If enough people dedicate their lives to short term stock market speculation, most of the world's pressing problems will soon be a thing of the past.
When Elon Tweeted it was in the 340's, it is now 303.
I never understood why people are so entranced by Musk.
Entrancement is irrational by definition. He has a big personality, talks about big things people like to dream about, and makes flashy things happen by splashing around lots of OPM that he gets them to willingly hand over by combinations of the above. Confirmation bias supports the belief that he's actually doing amazing things. But stripped down to brass tacks, the emperor has no clothes. It was clear the music would have to stop at some point, but I'm gratified it's happening as soon as it is.
(The NYT article probably was the final straw. An entrepreneur whining (no, *choking up*) that he had to work all day on his birthday? That should tell any rational investor everything they need to know.)
He's not just "shooting military and communication satellites to LEO". He's doing that in such a way that it is breaking up the entrenched, fossilized existing launch providers, most notably ULA, Arianespace, and the Russians. That by itself is a service to the world. His other grandiose plans, it is too early to judge. Tesla, whether it survives or not, seems to have at least set an expectation for EVs and the infrastructure to support them which is pushing the other automakers to compete, and not just build bigger and bigger pickup trucks which cost more than a loaded up Tesla Model 3.
I never understood why people are so entranced by Musk.
Because he promised things we all thought were ridiculous, at the time, and has delivered in spades. I'm astounded at what he has achieved in such a short time.
What I don't get is all the idiots who absolutely hate his guts. I mean, I understand that some humans have an innate desire to despise anyone who is doing well ... but I don't understand WHY that desire exists.
I guess. I am more impressed by people like Linus who have single handedly changed all of our lives for the better. I see people like Musk and I just see another businessman who hit it big during the dotcom and is now feeding his massive ego.
Exactly. It is like people have gone insane: they think people driving around in individual EVs is somehow "green". Even if it were true, a Tesla is unaffordable for 99.999% of the planet. How is that possibly going to help?
What do you mean by this? Hydrogen cars are electric cars.
Do you mean:
1. We need to go to FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles) OR
2. We need to go to B(Battery)EVs and FCEVs.
Hydrogen is not viable. It won't reduce CO2 emissions without some new breakthroughs. It requires a massive sudden investment in infrastructure, whereas most of the infrastructure for BEVs already exists (the electrical grid) and can be expanded on an as-needed basis.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
EVs are not as green as public transport, but they are certainly greener than individual ICE vehicles. Thank the Koch Brothers for the lack of public transport in the USA [yes, they are putting money into campaigns to oppose public transport projects.]
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
You are misreading the chart. The tweet was august 7. The previous rise was post the August 2 quarterly numbers release. post that their was no trading below 320 prior to the tweet.
Do you really not get why people hate his guts?
He says he's going to replace airplanes with rockets.
He says he's going to move people in pneumatic tubes.
He also says he's going to dig hundreds of non-pneumatic tubes under Los Angeles, and move people in their own cars, on sleds in said tunnels.
He sold a flamethrower, because he thought it would be "cool".
There's probably more of these. Didn't he make Paypal evil?
It's a service to the world that the world can now add even more crap to the orbital junkyard without any plan to clean it up except to wait on gravity to do its thing?
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
They haven't even produced a single affordable EV yet!
This statement alone makes it obvious that you're either a troll or a moron. If you want to apologise for that and restate your argument I'll be happy to have a discussion with you, but as it stands I don't think any reasonable person is going to take you seriously.
Do we not remember how scummy PayPal was when he was there?
No, "we" don't; we do, however, remember how shitty PayPal turned after they were bought up by eBay...
Do you really not get why people hate his guts?
No.
He says he's going to replace airplanes with rockets.
He says he's going to move people in pneumatic tubes.
He also says he's going to dig hundreds of non-pneumatic tubes under Los Angeles, and move people in their own cars, on sleds in said tunnels.
He sold a flamethrower, because he thought it would be "cool".
There's probably more of these.
I'm more confused than ever. I would classify all of those things as "cool!" and then follow it up with "make it happen!". Why in the world would any of those things make you hate him?
Didn't he make Paypal evil?
That's true. I'm kinda tired of having to call in a catholic priest every time I pay for something online. Demonic possession is a big downside.
Was making 80K to 120K cars till 2014.
Is making 50K electric cars now.
He will make 35K electric car next year
He promises 1000. Delivers 900. Everyone focuses on falling short of the target by 100. While forgeting that 900 is 900 above what every one said is impossible.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
The Dragon resupply spacecraft that go to the ISS via Falcon 9 come back to earth, carrying items back for NASA.
The Comsats going to geosynchronous orbit have end-of-life disposal processes to put them into graveyard orbits where they won't cause any trouble.
The DOD satellites, they do their own DOD thing.
Musk's Tesla Roadster launched on the Falcon Heavy is way past earth orbit in interplanetary space out with the asteroids.
Crab mentality is real.
You think you need to be a 1%'er to afford a Tesla?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
$60k is midrange for a vehicle now. Get out of your parents basement once in a while. Ford suckered people into spending $100k on a pickup truck.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
If you're trolling you're doing a piss poor job.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The Comsats going to geosynchronous orbit have end-of-life disposal processes to put them into graveyard orbits where they won't cause any trouble.
"... except to wait on gravity to do it's thing", I seem to recall writing. The graveyard orbit is a can kicked down the road that's going to land on our descendants' heads.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
The scale of greenness goes like this:
1. Driving an ICE car (least green)
2. Driving an electric car
3. Taking the bus
4. Biking / walking
5. Video conference / VR
6. Hikikomori / NEET
7. Killing yourself
And of course...
8. Killing other people (most green)
So the Koch Brothers are pretty green all things considered, they're quite happy to help with #7 and #8.
What I don't get is all the idiots who absolutely hate his guts. I mean, I understand that some humans have an innate desire to despise anyone who is doing well ... but I don't understand WHY that desire exists.
Your framing of the phenomenon might have something to do with your inability to understand it.
I don't personally know anyone who hates the punk, but I do know a lot of people who think poorly of him because he's a narcissistic man-child who tries to portray the selfish pursuit of his lunatic Richie Rich fantasies as some kind of grand and heroic vision. It's not. It's narcissism exemplified.
If I'm an idiot for possessing the ability to perceive reality accurately, so be it. Title accepted, with pride.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
I can see you've never met a white South African. They aren't just racist, they get really detailed about it. They'll bend your ear with story after story of how horrible black people are and won't shut up about it. This is such an obvious angle of attack on Musk and I can't figure out why it isn't being used.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Your framing of the phenomenon might have something to do with your inability to understand it.
I think you have cause and effect reversed; my inability to understand it is much more likely to drive my framing of it than vice versa.
I don't personally know anyone who hates the punk, but I do know a lot of people who think poorly of him because he's a narcissistic man-child who tries to portray the selfish pursuit of his lunatic Richie Rich fantasies as some kind of grand and heroic vision. It's not. It's narcissism exemplified.
You say you don't know anyone who hates him, yet in the exact same sentence you make it clear that you dispse him, on completely superficial grounds. If the word "hate" bothers you then replace it with "dispise", "loathe", or "dislike"; it doesn't change anything about what I said. You dislike him based on some weird caricature you've created, and I still can't figure out why.
If I'm an idiot for possessing the ability to perceive reality accurately, so be it. Title accepted, with pride.
You may or may not be an idiot, but you've done nothing to demonstrate that you "perceive reality accurately", nor have you given any reason for your dislike of him other than a half-hearted attempt at amateur psychoanalysis.
Given that TSLA is only about 15% off it's all time high, the vast majority of shorts are still losing money right now. It's not like all those shorts shorted within 10% of it's all time high.
Funny how the short sellers all hide.
I'm here with my name (trivial to link to my real-life identity even, if you are not an idiot with a search engine) and I own those Tesla stocks that you sold. And I'm holding them still and will hold them in a year, just like I did a year ago or two years ago when people were doing the same dances.
Because Tesla is hands down leader in its market, Elon Musk or not. I love idiots like you who focus on the star CEO and don't understand that half of a leaders job is to take the shit so people under him can calmly work without the interference. And what I see coming out of the company I like. There are growing pains, but as long as they are growing pains, I'm fine.
You can continue selling short, I don't care much. You can also invest in some AAA rated company that is closing factories and firing people and cutting markets and for some reason people think that leads to being more profitable (it doesn't, it just leads to a higher profit-to-equity ratio which is a KPI for analysts who think only in numbers).
At the same time, I'm driving a BMW and not a Model S because there is a lot that the guys at Tesla still need to learn about good interior design, but from what I've read (only test-driven a Model S, so I can't say myself), the Model X and Model 3 are already much better in that regard.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
/r/iamverysmart called. Said they want their mascot back.
define "better"
I've test-driven a Model S. I didn't buy it, I bought a BMW instead. But there was a lot that I liked, and while I thought it was overpriced by maybe 20k, it wasn't junk and the only reason that it's niche is the price.
Chinese cars, on the other hand, have in general failed so hard on any serious quality tests in the west that it is very clear they are still in the early steps of understanding how to build a proper car at all. I'm sure they will get there in about a decade, but I can't hold my breath that long.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
He whines about shorters and decides to stick it then with a half assed tweet about going private. This earns him a class action and SEC investigation. And more short positions predicate on the outcome of both. On top of that he goes into an interview to explain what a fucked up life he's living at present. Talk about self inflicted. The funny part is it's not hard finding people defending him. Like that time when he calls a cave diver a pedo for ridiculing his submersible we saw people leaping to justify it. His support base is practically cult like in their support regardless of the stupidity of his actions. They perceive criticism of him as an attack on them.
I think you have cause and effect reversed; my inability to understand it is much more likely to drive my framing of it than vice versa.
No disrespect intended: Haven't you just said that you cannot understand the phenomenon of disrespect for Musk, therefor it must be irrational?
I'll not defend myself against an ad hominem argument. The discussion is about Musk, not me.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
Pedo guy was a moron who shit on Elon for no good reason. True, Elon should have been the bigger man and not responded in kind. But even the best of us can't help responding to trolls sometimes.
Nissan Leaf - released about 15 months before the Model S. And about 7 years before the Model 3.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Average price of a new car in the US is around $34K, about half of what you claim - and about 60% of the entry-level price on shipping Model 3s...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
No disrespect intended: Haven't you just said that you cannot understand the phenomenon of disrespect for Musk, therefor it must be irrational?
I've said that all of the reasons people give for hating Musk seem irrational, which is why I don't understand the phenomenon.
I'll not defend myself against an ad hominem argument. The discussion is about Musk, not me.
Me pointing out that you haven't provided any rational reason for disliking the guy is not an ad hominem.
Me pointing out that you haven't provided any rational reason for disliking the guy is not an ad hominem.
Uh...
What I don't get is all the idiots...
an innate desire to despise anyone who is doing well
on completely superficial grounds
some weird caricature
a half-hearted attempt at amateur pyschoanalysis
I'd attempted to explain why "all the idiots" think poorly of Musk. You made it about me rather than explaining why his behavior does not deserve to be characterized as that of a narcissistic punk. Unnamed tens of saboteurs are responsible for his company failing to meet unrealistic production targets. A man who pointed out that underwater caves are not swimming pools is a "pedo guy". He's like Trump: He just says shit and expects the rest of us to be blind to how ludicrous that shit is. Narcissism exemplified.
HTH. HAND.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
Seen it so many times; local store becomes popular, tries to expand from 1 store to 6-12 at once...
http://community.seattletimes....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
always fails.
Because leaving this planet is essential for the long term survival of humanity.
South Africa is a shithole. The white people have reason to be racist. What they should do is flee that country and then you'll see how bad it really gets when its run by 100% blacks. Take your pic from adding more zeroes onto the currency weekly or having the country change names when a new "president" is "elected".
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Nothing short of nuclear propulsion is going to get meaningful numbers of humans off the planet. Just the mass of a million humans is orders of magnitude greater than what existing rockets can carry, not to mention what you need to keep all of them alive. SpaceX is not going to change that by making incremental improvements.
Now I don't dispute that SpaceX is doing cool stuff, but the idea that it'll get us to self-sustaining Mars colonies is far fetched, technically, economically or politically.
Speak for yourself. I was happy to use ebay, never have been happy about paypal.
It was shitty before ebay bought it, and it was shitty after. The only real difference is that ebay went shitty too.
He promises 1000. Delivers 900. Everyone focuses on falling short of the target by 100. While forgeting that 900 is 900 above what every one said is impossible.
I'd like a source on the "everyone said is impossible". The 2010 Nissan Leaf with 70 miles of range sold for $25,000. Buying 3 of them and strapping them together will get you the same 200 miles of range for the same price as a Tesla. And this was in 2010! What Tesla did was spend 8 years and billions of dollars to end up in the same place as Nissan, albeit with much greater fanfare. Is that really something to be proud of?
A large portion of what Tesla is researching and building, including batteries with low overall operating costs and autonomous driving, will be absolutely required for non-individual vehicles, too. Maybe in a few decades, but still. It doesn't have to be a world of Teslas, but it will head much closer to it that to the current world of individual ICE cars.
Ezekiel 23:20
Have you driven a Nissan LEAF? Have you driven a Tesla Model S?
I own one of each, and there is a world of difference between them. Nissan is nowhere close to Tesla.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I'd attempted to explain why "all the idiots" think poorly of Musk.
No, you didn't. You just asserted that he's a narcissist and that you don't like him. That's not an explanation.
Granted, maybe you did attempt to explain but, if so, you really suck at it.
Unnamed tens of saboteurs are responsible for his company failing to meet unrealistic production targets.
You expect the CEO of a company to publicaly name someone engaging in subterfuge? Are you insane?
A man who pointed out that underwater caves are not swimming pools is a "pedo guy".
That's a cute bit of handwaving, but you're actually talking about a guy who told Musk to shove his submarine up his ass. That would be the same submarine which Musk and his team spent a bunch of money and time developing at the behest of one of the leads on the rescue effort.
I don't know about you but, if I had just spent a bunch of time and money building a sub which was requested by a rescue team, and then some random jackoff told me to shove it up my ass, I would not be feeling too charitable towards him.
He's like Trump: He just says shit and expects the rest of us to be blind to how ludicrous that shit is. Narcissism exemplified.
Seems more like he says completely understandable things, and then people who have already decided to hate him work as hard as they can to explain why those things are horrible and eeeeevil.
But let me ask you a question: why DO YOU CARE that the "entrenched, fossilized launch services" exist? Does it affect you in any way that the military or communication companies save a bit on money on a launch?
It's not just military and communication. Highly capable and cheap launch vehicles are perhaps the most important step on the path to cheaper and more capable scientific probes and space-based telescopes, since they will allow for greater capabilities simultaneously with lesser engineering effort. I.e., they would cheapen both the launches and the payload designs. For people interested in natural sciences, this is a rather tempting prospect, since the funding of scientific missions isn't unlimited.
Ezekiel 23:20
Uh...nuclear propulsion is overrated and a red herring. At least any forms of it that have been currently developed. They're actually all inferior to chemical propulsion with local resource utilization.
Ezekiel 23:20
that's going to land on our descendants' heads.
Metaphorically, perhaps. Literally, that's rather implausible without violating the laws of physics.
Ezekiel 23:20
or in stead of some conspiracy, he's just stressed out. I watched this interview: talking tech with Elon Musk of a few days ago. I don't care about tears, but the way he talks here has a lot of the same signs as people about to burn out from stress. That is not to say he will, lots of people in that state manage to avoid it, but if it was a colleague of mine I'd tell him to take a break.
---
The diver was instrumental to the entire rescue effort
Nothing if the sort. He did no diving. At best he provided the authorities with the names of some British divers who could help. That's great and all, but "instrumental" is an idiotic overstatement of his contribution.
while your favorite flamethrower beach boy decided to show up uninvited and wanted to shove a fucking metal tube into a narrow cave despite being told by the rescue chief in charge that it wouldnâ(TM)t work.
This is, of course, more bullshit. He was encouraged to build the submarine by Richard Stanton; one of the two divers who were the first to reach the boys. You know, a guy who actually WAS instrumental to the rescue effort.
Get fucked, you bloody fanatic.
I do, on a fairly regular basis. Judging by your rabid frustration, I suspect you can't day the same.
Were Honda's and Toyota's vehicles really so bad forty years ago compared to contemporary western vehicles? I don't seem to recall that.
Ezekiel 23:20
wait on gravity to do its thing?
Air, really.
Gravity isn't bringing those satellites back down once they're in a stable orbit.
In one quarter BAIC accomplished more than Tesla has in 15 years.
By what metrics in particular? Tesla's problems notwithstanding, that statements seems rather incredible for any single manufacturer.
Ezekiel 23:20
If I'm an idiot for possessing the ability to perceive reality accurately, so be it. Title accepted, with pride.
No, but you might be an idiot if you think your perception of reality is the accurate one and everyone else's is wrong...
Or you could be right, and actually a genius. But since you didn't know basic orbital mechanics above, I'm going with the former.
It was more like 50-60 years ago. And yeah, they were garbage.
Idiots like to bring up that fact for some reason. No idea why. There basically saying "it took Japan 30 years to make a decent car, so, like, China rocks!". No clue how that's supposed to make sense, but there you have it ...
It was definitely shitty before and after... But I distinctly remember it got a lot more shitty after.
Fuck it, that's not even the right word. It got straight up evil.
Your argument could literally be used, word for word, to describe you describing "White South Africans"
Fuck, I hope you find that as hilarious as I do.
Nissan Leaf - released about 15 months before the Model S. And about 7 years before the Model 3.
And about 2 years after the Roadster. With about a quarter of the range, a fraction of the power,
I'm more confused than ever. I would classify all of those things as "cool!" and then follow it up with "make it happen!". Why in the world would any of those things make you hate him?
Because they're ridiculously expensive and impractical. I'm not going to hate his guts for it, but I'm pretty sick of his fanboys.
Yeah, I'd believe the sixty years, but forty seems like a serious stretch.
Ezekiel 23:20
despite being told by the rescue chief in charge that it wouldn’t work
Then it's a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, considering that some other people in charge were apparently of a different opinion.
Ezekiel 23:20
The 2010 Nissan Leaf with 70 miles of range sold for $25,000. Buying 3 of them and strapping them together will get you the same 200 miles of range for the same price as a Tesla.
Only until their batteries break in a few years. Tesla may be somewhat more expensive but it is likely to have significantly higher lifetime quality. As we're saying in my country, I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things.
Ezekiel 23:20
Do we not remember how scummy PayPal was when he was there?
A system that provided easy online payment systems breaking the bank cartel and allowing easy transfer of funds between people all while creating an industry which now has heavy competition?
Paypal was scummy, and I thank Elon Musk for investing in it and making the world a better place for it.
I don't get it. He isn't an engineer
No, he's someone who invests his wealth into new technologies that provide game changers to the world, someone who employs engineers to bring his vision to life and push boundaries. Being an engineer is good and all, but you may as well be flipping burgers if you don't get funding.
He isn't even producing affordable EVs or solar panels.
By affordable you mean the single best selling EV in America despite being significantly more expensive than all others?
So he is hardly "saving the planet" by producing $60,000 cars.
Ironically $60k ICE cars are doing far more damage to the environment in terms of emissions than little $15k ones. While unintentionally I congratulate him for starting by cleaning up the dirtiest market.
Kek. You doing something important. That's a good one.
Because they're ridiculously expensive and impractical.
This is what I was saying about electric cars back in 2008, and about the idea of reusable rockets back in 2010. I underestimated him twice; unlike people like you, I learn from my mistakes.
If somebody loses 1B, somebody else is gaining it.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
White South Africans are racist as fuck.
Interesting. If I'm reading you're post correctly, you have drawn a conclusion about Elon Musk based on his skin color and place of birth. Do you have any other information to offer or are these two facts sufficient to form the entire basis of your conclusion?
I'm thinking of a word to describe someone who draws conclusions based SOLELY on skin color. Can you guess what it is? I don't think combining skin color with place of birth when announcing your conclusions makes you any less of one.
Furthermore, the central point of your post seems to be your "surprise" that Musk's skin color and place of birth never get brought up. Almost all Musk stories (on slashdot at least) are about Tesla or SpaceX. What is it exactly about cars and rockets that makes the CEO's skin color so relevant that it's absence from the discussion "suprises" you?
I'm sorry, the question was about who was selling a cheap EV - I guess you consider the Roadster "cheap"?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Who was selling them that cheap before Tesla was barreling down on them with lofty promises and rapid growth? I bet you’re scared to answer.
That was the question. The answer is, of course, the Nissan Leaf.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
10. Kill everyone.
Nissan is nowhere close to Tesla.
Especially in terms of price.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Remarkably, Rei has not chimed in, at all, in this discussion. They have the usual comments, peppered with Musk jargon and catch-phrases, on the 'Boring Company to Sports Arena' discussio, so they are still present.
Is this too toxic a topic to chime in on? Is Rei a sock puppet account run by Musky himself, which would render this a topic far too dangerous to 'go on record' with in case the identity of 'Rei' was revealed? Who knows?
No, it was 30-40 years ago, and by that time the Japanese were already pretty good.
I meant the period when Japanese vehicles were bad, not the period when American companies were still badmouthing them.
Ezekiel 23:20
Not more than, say, one or two hundred million years at the outside, actually.
Ezekiel 23:20
But they're still shorting it.
@elonmusk resources to reach a higher level of your potential:
* Bullies to Buddies: How to Stop Being Teased and Bullied Without Really Trying
* Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew P. Walker
* William C. Norris: Portrait of a Maverick
Link: https://twitter.com/pdfernhout...
Hope he finds time to at least skim those resources -- especially #2 if he is working so much! A lot of his current missteps with "mistweets" could easily be explained by lack of enough good sleep.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
A really stupid article. Those short sellers who were able to survive the CRIMINAL short squeeze get their money back at the end - plus a little more. Those who were forced ought in margin calls are still screwed. Regardless of the FELON being caught he still committed a FELONY. He needs to be tried first under criminal law -- and then he and TESLA the corporation need to be tried under both regulatory law and civil law. And I actually like Musk. So this makes me real sad. But you can't let Senators, Presidents and Billionaires get away with things *because* they are too "special" to prosecute. Indeed, those who have access to lawyers without limits need to be held to an even higher standard -- not easily allowed to escape under dodge of tears and excuses. To do otherwise is to make the entire system of laws even more transparently a farce than it already has become.
TSLA has about $2.2 billion in cash and short term investments, on-hand. Ford has about $36 billion on hand. TSLA is losing a large percentage of that cash every quarter; Ford is adding to their holdings. And yet - market cap of TSLA is larger than Ford.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Tesla is a relative newcomer. Volkswagon were producing and selling an electric car in the 1970s. And whilst Tesla may have been doing electric cars for 5 years now, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche have been designing and producing high end cars for almost a century and to them all this is is a change in the drivetrain. The rest of the stuff such as mirrors, door handles and everything else Tesla seem incapable of getting right is run of the mill.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
They're actually all inferior to chemical propulsion with local resource utilization.
What does that have to do with anything?
I own one of each, and there is a world of difference between them.
Oh really? How much less time do you spend commuting now that you have the Model S?
Or by "world of difference" you mean its ability to show off how rich you are?
Why exactly does a city bus require an autonomous drive system?
It doesn't, but it might work even better, economy wise. Plus autonomous systems might allow for smaller, more personal vehicles operated by the city.
why you lefties are so enamored with pointless job killing technologies
1) Not a leftie. 2) "Pointless job killing technologies" have always been very popular with righties, too. Didn't you notice the relatively extremely rightie United States becoming a world leader in automation in the second part of the 20th century?
Ezekiel 23:20
We need greatly increased public mass transit in north america, yes, of course, but a) the suburb sprawl in many places is irretrievably ridiculous, and b) the remaining cars and trucks need to be (~0 ghg source it goes without saying) electric. I stand by what I said.
Electric car sharing is likely to be a big factor too. Slightly less green than electric mass transit for sure, but still way better than individual ICE vehicle ownership. Hyperloops and skytrains and more subways and electric/hydrogen bus systems are also needed to complete the solution. I don't disagree.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
They are much simpler mechanical systems. Many fewer parts. Cheaper to build, once you factor out the existing economy-of-scale advantage of ICE vehicle production chain.
Their maintenance costs are much lower over vehicle lifetime.
"Fuel" cost is much lower.
So the same percentage of people worldwide who can now afford ICE vehicles will be able to afford EVs. That part of your argument is based on the current transition-blip of higher EV prices.
Electric mass transit, from buses through rail and hyperloops to displace some aviation, is also needed. I don't disagree at all. All of these elements of transportation innovation are urgently needed.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Nothing short of nuclear propulsion is going to get meaningful numbers of humans off the planet.
Ezekiel 23:20
What the heck does "local resource utilization" have anything to do with "meaningful numbers of humans off the planet"?
I know hydrogen cars/trucks are just electric cars with fuel cells and hydrogen tanks. Duh.
Hydrogen in vehicles such as trucks and buses still conveys a two-to-one roughly range advantage. There is an application for that.
Hydrogen may be more useful as a massive-scale (e.g. continental scale) central electric grid energy storage application to absorb wind and PV excess-to-load power. Round trip energy efficiency for this kind of hydrogen system still sucks bigtime (30 to 40%) but given how cheap and deployable wind and PV are becoming, that doesn't matter as much as you think. Just put in twice as much wind and PV as you otherwise would have required. Easy peasy.
You know, if we got a serious carbon fee and dividend going, we could just let the market sort this question out.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
I own one of each, and there is a world of difference between them.
Oh really? How much less time do you spend commuting now that you have the Model S?
I spend a lot less time worrying about when and where to charge, and whether I need to take a different car that day because the LEAF won't go far enough. But the difference is a lot more than just range. The Tesla is a much nicer experience... and that's saying something since the LEAF is more enjoyable to drive than most ICEVs I've had.
Or by "world of difference" you mean its ability to show off how rich you are?
That is actually the biggest negative with the Tesla. I'm not a flashy person and I don't care for all of the attention the Tesla gets. But it's by far the nicest-driving and most pleasant vehicle I've ever owned, so I'm willing to put up with that.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Nissan is nowhere close to Tesla.
Especially in terms of price.
My LEAF was $35K (new) and my Tesla was $42K (used). So, not so much different there for me at least.
Well, I guess in practice I only spent about $20K for the LEAF, since I leased it and then bought it off the lease after it had depreciated much more than Nissan had expected. But the Tesla is easily three times the car the LEAF is, if not more.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I've had sunshine in the arctic and a swim in Tinbuktu,
I've seen unicorns in Burma and a Yetti in Nepal,
And I've danced with ten foot pygmies in a Montezuma hall,
I've met the King of China and a working Yorkshire miner -
But I've never met a nice South African!
No he's never met a nice South African,
And that's not bloody surprising man!
'Cause we're a bunch of arrogant b***tards,
Who hate black people!
I once got served in Woolies aften less than four week's wait,
I had lunch with Rowan Atkinson when he paid and wasn't late,
I know a public swimming bath where they don't piss in the pool,
I know a guy who got a job straight after leaving school,
I've met a normal merman, and a fairly modest German -
But I've never met a nice South African!
No he's never met a nice South African,
And that's not bloody surprising man!
'Cause we're a bunch of talentless murderers,
Who smell like baboons.
I've had a close encounter of the twenty-second kind,
That's when an alien spaceship disappears up your behind,
I got directory enquiries after less than forty rings,
I've even heard a decent song by Paul McCartney's Wings,
I've seen a flying pig, in a quite convincing wig,
But I've never met a nice South African!
No he's never met a nice South African,
And that's not bloody surprising man!
'Cause we're a bunch of ignorant loudmouths,
With no sense of humour.
I've met the Loch Ness monster and he looks like Fred Astaire,
At the BBC in London he's the chief commissionaire,
I know a place in Glasgow which is rife with daffodillies,
I met a man in Katmandu who claimed to have two willies,
I've had a nice pot noodle, but I've never had a poodle -
And I've never met a nice South African.
No he's never met a nice South African,
And that's not bloody surprising man,
Because we've never met one either!
Except for Breyten Breytenbach, and he's emigrated to Paris. (farts)
Yes he's quite a nice South African,
And he's hardly ever killed anyone,
And he's not smelly at all.
That's why we put him prison!
(Video)
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
It was in the early 70s that the Honda 600 became the first car ever that Consumer Reports rated as "Not Acceptable".
I spend a lot less time worrying about when and where to charge, and whether I need to take a different car that day because the LEAF won't go far enough.
The 2018 Leaf has a 150 mi range, so I don't see what you need to worry about (or if you still do, you're probably better off with a plug-in hybrid). Comparing cars from similar times, the Leaf is still on top given it's less than half the price.
As for the "nicer experience", that's highly subjective. Some people might say the sound of a roaring V8 is a nicer experience. Is it worth an extra $50,000? Yes, but only to people like you who have money to burn.
Any space transportation infrastructure is going to use local resources for both cislunar and interplanetary travel. Nuclear propulsion would massively suck at mined mass usage since hydrolox propulsion can use about seven times more of mined mass of water than nuclear engines. Only theoretical nuclear engines with extremely high specific impulse would compensate for that drawback.
Ezekiel 23:20
The leaf was a "cheap EV" in the same sense that a golf cart is. Horrible example. Whereas the Roadster - at a price of $110,000 - provided useful range and super-car performance while still being within reach of any middle class person who really wanted one.
Clean up the cities by removing as many roads as possible. Build common areas for pedestrians and bicycles where those streets used to be. This is happening in some European cities. At that point public transport will explode because there will be a market for it.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the limitations of space travel. Let's say I'm on Triton. Solar panels provides 0.1% of the energy than it does near Earth. How am I going to turn all that water I mine into hydrolox fuel?
And just for the record, all nuclear engines have extremely high Isp.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the limitations of space travel.
No, I don't.
Let's say I'm on Triton.
Good luck trying not to sink into all that nitrogen ice.
Solar panels provides 0.1% of the energy than it does near Earth. How am I going to turn all that water I mine into hydrolox fuel?
You use a nuclear power plant (before it sinks into all that nitrogen ice). Then you pump it into a non-nuclear rocket. Did you notice how bad servicing nuclear devices is once they fired even once? It sucks.
And just for the record, all nuclear engines have extremely high Isp.
The ones we have an idea how to actually build don't. They're also too heavy. They also have very limited lifetime. You can prolong it by running them a bit cooler, but then they suck even more.
Ezekiel 23:20
https://www.reuters.com/articl...
The smart ones who owned TSLA got out at $380. Musk pulled the entire "go private" thing out of his ass and opened the company to potentially billions in liability. All for a short uptick in share price. This will go down in history as the most self-destructive tweet ever. Tesla was already a ticking time bomb but Musk's obsession with short sellers, his narcissism, and a healthy mix of drugs, resulted in the equivalent of him pulling the wrong wire, causing the clock to reset downward to 10 seconds.
Musk's disciples should have seen the event as a sacrifice by their Jesus so they could have gotten out at a price close to an all time high, yet I bet some are going to ride it all the way down to zero.
Got it - $110,000 is a "cheap" and affordable EV. Something that is over 3 times the average selling price of a car today (probably well over 4 times the price, back in 2012) is "cheap". You just keep justifying it - but you're flat-out wrong.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
And new prices? Or a used Nissan Leaf? Really, having to resort to "used Leaf vs. Used Tesla" to try to justify a closer price just goes to prove the statement - there is no affordable Tesla model today.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
The 2018 Leaf has a 150 mi range
My LEAF is a 2012.
As for the "nicer experience", that's highly subjective. Some people might say the sound of a roaring V8 is a nicer experience. Is it worth an extra $50,000? Yes, but only to people like you who have money to burn.
Well, my Model S cost $42K, so there's no "extra $50K" here.
But FWIW, my perception is that even at full/new price, the Model S is worth what it costs. I like my LEAF; it's why I've owned two of them, but the Tesla is a much better car.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
This is what I was saying about electric cars back in 2008
Except there was already a proof-of-concept with the EV1. Electric cars are at least feasible, even if they are still too expensive or impractical, with the vast majority of people still driving on gasoline engines.
and about the idea of reusable rockets back in 2010
That also has a history before Musk.
I underestimated him twice; unlike people like you, I learn from my mistakes
No, you've just become a fanboy unable to think critically.
Beam divergence kills you. However, it's quite possible that very lightweight reflectors (~10 grams per square meter) could make at least stationary solar power viable to significant distances in the outer solar system.
Ezekiel 23:20
But let me ask you a question: why DO YOU CARE that the "entrenched, fossilized launch services" exist? Does it affect you in any way that the military or communication companies save a bit on money on a launch?
It takes little imagination to see the potential benefits of cheaper launches. But just in case:
Asteroid mining
Orbital solar power
Space tourism
More and cheaper science missions
What if deep space probes were constructed and launched by universities instead of requiring national space agencies?
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
It's a good thing, then, that this one case happened 5-15 years before the period in question.
Ezekiel 23:20
on Friday August 17th, 2018: https://twitter.com/ariannahuf...
https://www.thriveglobal.com/s...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
And sadly Musk rejected that advice:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/s...
One of the things Matthew Walker says in his book on sleep is that sleep-deprived people have poor judgement about the effects of not enough sleep on their cognition.
If Musk has paid attention to that tweet I sent and got more sleep, might he have not have made the subsequent tweet about taking Tesla private which not was him under SEC investigation and facing multiple shareholder lawsuits?
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
So what year is your Model S? It's pretty pointless to talk about used cars if you don't take into consideration how old they are.
In any case, you clearly want the performance and are willing to pay a lot of extra dough for it.
As for me, I'm going to hold off until the improvements plateaus. My Corolla is probably good for another decade or two. By then I'll be able to pick up the equivalent of today's Model S for $20k.
Please, be serious.
The Roadster was cheap in the same sense as the Leaf was practical.