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Poor Sleep Alters Metabolism and Boosts Body's Ability To Store Fat, Study Finds (theguardian.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: The latest study provides new evidence that sleep deprivation has a direct influence on basic metabolism and the body's balance between fat and muscle mass. In the study, published in the journal Science Advances, 15 healthy volunteers each attended a testing session on two occasions, once after a normal night's sleep and once after staying up all night. During the visit, they gave samples of fat and muscle tissue and blood. After sleep deprivation, people's fat tissue showed changes in gene activity that are linked to cells increasing their tendency to absorb lipids and also to proliferate.

By contrast, in muscle the scientists saw reduced levels of structural proteins, which are the building blocks the body requires to maintain and build muscle mass. Previous epidemiological studies have also found shift workers and those who sleep less have lower muscle mass. This may be in part down to lifestyle factors, but the latest work shows that there are also fundamental biological mechanisms at play. The study also found an increase in inflammation in the body after sleep deprivation, which is a known risk factor for type 2 diabetes.

133 of 233 comments (clear)

  1. Not surprising, but good data to have. by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sleep deprivation is a source of chronic stress at a basic level. It's not all that surprising that it causes neurological effects, but ALSO systemic stress-related effects.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  2. Something I've been wondering by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    more and more we're finding that people's failings aren't their own. That a variety of physical ailments have broad, cascading effects on every aspect of human life. We figured out that underfed women give birth to babies with reduced mental capacity. That poverty and stress impact rational behavior and decision making. That people sleep less as they age due to hormonal changes and now that lack of sleep leads to weight gain (gut bacteria play a big role too).

    As long as I've been alive one of the central narratives in my life has been that people who fail at life did so because they lack good moral character. It's been pretty well pounded into my skull. Sometimes overtly ( "Welfare Queens" and folks convinced panhandlers are making a kililng ) and sometimes less so ("You can be do anything if you put your mind to it!" and "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!").

    Science is challenging that. There really are "born losers". Folks for whom nothing ever seems to go right because it doesn't. Moreover life really does kick you when you're down.

    What I'm wondering is if we're going to change anything in response. I don't expect the public at large to. But, well, /. is a science focused forum. And the science is pretty clear here. So are we going to start seeing a change of mind? And are we going to see folks acting on that?

    I'm not so sure. Yeah, this is a science oriented forum, but it's also a forum with an aging population. And as people get older they get more conservative. Less emphatic. Funny that; I read somewhere science has found that the part of your brain associated with empathy atrophies in old age...

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    1. Re:Something I've been wondering by js290 · · Score: 1

      "The link between money, agriculture, conventional religion, and our violation of nature" -Daniel Suelo http://t.co/ku1o7yD80Y

      — Decivilized (@decivilized) June 26, 2014

      --
      "Tempers are wearing thin. Let's just hope some robot doesn't kill everybody." --Bender
    2. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is *also* true that certain character flaws will lead to one being a failure. People who refuse to take responsibility and self-motivate are never going to achieve as much.

      So, a fat person may be fat because of their combination of metabolism and gut bacteria and so on. Such that when they eat a normal and reasonable amount of food, and even get some exercise, they stay fat. That happens. But it *also* happens that some people just over-indulge in unhealthy food and they don't exercise at all.

      And further, in the former case, the person is not doomed. If the person is truly motivated, they can bust their ass, eat super-healthy, and even do things like get a fecal transplant to favor the correct gut bacteria, and make significant improvement. The temptation is to point at the science and throw up one's hands in defeat, using it as an enabler of continued bad behavior.

      This doesn't mean that wisdom and morality will fix one's problems. Depending on details, it is simply not enough. But neither is the opposite extreme true. Personal problems are still very heavily influenced by one's character, and the need for personal responsibility is still present.

      What really hurts me is that huge numbers of people, most people, in fact, are born into poverty. The hand they are dealt is bad from the get-go. Even if they somehow manage to be brilliant saints, the sheer lack of economic opportunity keeps them trapped forever. It is unfair, and it is the most common case. I support poverty-fighting charities but there is only so much that can be done. Poverty *sucks,* and I consider it to be the greatest evil that flourishes within our species (though it is not unique to us, of course).

      Maybe, someday, we will find a better way. It hurts me that the current state is still the best we can do.

    3. Re:Something I've been wondering by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Panhandlers do make a good living. Better than honest work, that's for sure. I used to wonder why they ever made money, if we all agreed to stop giving to them, they'd disappear overnight. But, I found out there is a certain kind of human that is vulnerable to this. They feel awful about not giving. The panhandlers aren't just begging, they're selling a product. The product is the approval of these vulnerable humans' own conscience.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    4. Re:Something I've been wondering by asackett · · Score: 1

      I'm going to go out on a limb and say that no, scientific evidence isn't going to change any significant number of minds. I've got a circadian rhythm disorder that doesn't respond to treatment, and though the disorder/syndrome is considered a disability (in the US) there aren't many who'll employ a programmer who arises at noon each day because he must.

      Which is odd, because DSPD/DSPS is more common among those of higher IQ. So it goes.

      FWIW, the older I get, the more accepting/tolerant/liberal I get.

      --

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    5. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Strawman fallacy. I was not saying that someone can cure depression by thinking happy thoughts. Nor did my post imply such a thing.

      YOUR post, however, suggests utter defeatism. The upshot of what you seem to be saying is "Science says I am fat because of forces utterly beyond my control, and therefore there is no reason for me to even try to get my weight under control."

      My original post, summarized: "for some people, yes. For others, if you try, you absolutely can get your weight under control. It absolutely depends. So, if you don't like being fat, go ahead and try."

      (And poverty sucks)

    6. Re:Something I've been wondering by tsa · · Score: 3, Informative

      Already in the 19th century a distinction was made between people who would not work and people who could not work; the deserving and the undeserving poor. Read Mayhew's brilliant London Labour and the London Poor.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    7. Re:Something I've been wondering by grasshoppa · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Science is challenging that. There really are "born losers".

      That's not my take. My take is that everyone has their own "challenges". My personal demons are stress eating ( drinking ), and as a result I'm a bit of a porker. I don't blame my genetics for that. I don't blame my employer for that, nor do I blame my family for it. *I* choose to eat and drink when I really shouldn't. I choose to stay up later than I should ( for some fucking peace and quiet. Just 30 minutes of it ). That's me. Were my physique a bigger priority for me, then I'd treat it as such.

      I am repulsed by the idea that we are not capable of self control, of discipline.

      --
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    8. Re: Something I've been wondering by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for anyone else. I was born with certain congenital heart problems. To deal with that, I've focused on exercise and health, and will certainly live longer than most of my ancestors. As for mental problems, I didn't want to exercise. Who does? Sure I had the intention, but after work I would just go home and sit on the couch. Finally I made a plan to exercise a little each day, and standing up once and sitting back down was enough to count as exercise. That was enough for my peculiar mental state to eventually increase y strength and energy. So yeah I have problems but I try to work around them. I say nothing about any other mental problems I may have.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Something I've been wondering by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure. Yeah, this is a science oriented forum, but it's also a forum with an aging population. And as people get older they get more conservative. Less emphatic. Funny that; I read somewhere science has found that the part of your brain associated with empathy atrophies in old age...

      You make good points, but I believe that empathy is like a muscle. The more you use it, the longer it stays active. There are few things in life that will rejuvenate the mind and body and renew the spirit like going out and doing something for someone else.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:Something I've been wondering by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is why we have so much sympathy for unemployed steel workers...oh wait we don't. We engage in ugly, classist bigotry in a regular basis and get modded up to +5 for it. So much for tolerance for the outgroup!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    11. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      >Science says I am fat because of forces utterly beyond my control...So, if you don't like being fat, go ahead and try

      And science does say exactly that, you dense motherfucker. By all means, show me the peer-reviewed study with the non-surgical technique that allows more than fractions of a percent of a cohort to lose more than 5 per cent of their body weight and keep it off for more than three years. Just 5 per cent.

      Here's a clue for you - it doesn't exist. 'My fat friend lost fifty pounds' is not data. Here's data: between 99.2 and 99.8 per cent of all people who do lose more than 5 per cent of their bodyweight will start regaining that weight in the following twelve months; between 40 and 60% will be regained by the end of the 12 months; all of it will be back by three years; in more than half of cases, they will be heavier than before they lost the weight. These figures hold for any non-surgical intervention - diet, exercise, behavioural modification, or a combination thereof. There is some indication that behavioural modification may be more effective at one year; there is no data that it is more effective at three years.

      You also didn't answer where these character flaws come from, or how they can somehow magically be controlled in some way that other psychological traits with a physiological basis - like depression, dipshit, try to keep up - cannot.

    12. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The only unemployed steel workers have been provided 50 years of education and retraining. If you mean the towns then the same applies. If you mean to imply that reduction somehow reduced national production, you'd be wrong. US steel production has more than doubled in that same time frame, and it is cheaper than ever and better quality than when it required thousands of low skill operators. Now production requires roughly a dozen men per mill operating highly sophisticated machinery.

    13. Re:Something I've been wondering by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Like I said, zero empathy.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    14. Re: Something I've been wondering by backslashdot · · Score: 1

      Finding out scientific truth and facing reality isnâ(TM)t defeatism. If anything it allows the situation to be rectified. Maybe the gene or chemical imbalance can be corrected or some sort of extra help gotten. DNA can be edited after all.

    15. Re:Something I've been wondering by aticus.finch · · Score: 1

      more and more we're finding that people's failings aren't their own.

      No. You're misreading the science(s). More and more we're finding that some peoples failings are not their own. The clear majority of people have failings that are their own.

      I mean, just using this article as an example - only 29% of night shift workers are in danger of becoming obese due to working night shifts. You can't very well point to a random obese person and claim "not their fault" because the odds are against
      a) Them being a night shift worker, and
      b) Them being in the 29% that may be prone to gain weight as a result of night shift work.

      If you and I were to sit in a public place, and you bet that each passing obese person had gained weight through no fault of their own and I bet that they instead simply exercised too little and ate too much, you'd lose your money.

    16. Re:Something I've been wondering by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      I know exactly where you're coming from. You have no idea how long I've battled with myself to accept that no, I'm not just lazy... I actually do seem to have less energy at my disposal as some other people and the fact that I am where I am is actually not a detriment because I could have done so much more if I had just applied myself...

      No, it's a damn miracle I am this functional despite it all.

      It also changed, more often than before, how I look at people that fail. I've become much more forgiving and less judgemental.

      Life is fucking hard, yo. Just as some people lucked out genetically, others have lucked out mentally... some few even in both aspects. If you try to live up to those standards, you're in for a shitshow of disappointment and frustration.

    17. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...the panhandlers in my neighbourhood are making a killing.

      When I first moved here, I felt sorry for them, and offered them food. I then witnessed several of them throw the food directly into the trash.

      And recently, they've been stealing cellphones from the local laundry I use.

      So fuck you with your "folks convinced" bullshit.

    18. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Did Henry Ford stop innovating out of fear that buggy whip makers would be sad?

    19. Re:Something I've been wondering by yes-but-no · · Score: 1

      You also didn't answer where these character flaws come from, or how they can somehow magically be controlled in some way that other psychological traits with a physiological basis - like depression, dipshit, try to keep up - cannot.

      Traits come from within. Yes, external factors will try to push you in the wrong direction; but there is something inside you, call it will-power/trust/faith that if strong enough will let you pull yourself out of the hole.
      But for vast majority, it's much easier to say it's impossible and not try. Oh yeah, and they always ask for scientific evidence which can't be provided. This is subjective not objective. In fact for such folks their only search is how to justify their position to not try and continue to wallow in the misery.

    20. Re:Something I've been wondering by zmooc · · Score: 1

      What you have learned may not be as universal as you expect it to be. A quick glance at countries like the nordics indicates that in those countries, even at the lawmaking level, it is clear what you just learned :p

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    21. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the "scientific evidence which cannot be provided" is not being provided while scientific evidence to the contrary is developing into a steady flow at this point. Perhaps it can't be provided because the conclusions you want to exist are unsupported by all available evidence.

    22. Re:Something I've been wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's really too bad that you are notoriously low on empathy the second you find out someone disagrees with you, PopeRatzo.

    23. Re:Something I've been wondering by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the person is not doomed. If the person is truly motivated, they can bust their ass, eat super-healthy, and even do things like get a fecal transplant to favor the correct gut bacteria, and make significant improvement.

      Is that realistic though? If they have to work full time, which not only takes up a lot of time and energy but requires them to not be super tired for months or years on end, is this super healthy diet and exercise regime a realistic option? That is assuming it even worked, which it doesn't...

      Fecal transplant is very promising but not widely available and typically not available on socialised healthcare or insurance plans.

      A friend of mine is getting a gastric sleeve fitted today, funnily enough, which is an effective treatment but which took her years of failed counselling and diets and weight loss groups and gyms to get to. I think they only really gave in now because she wants children and if they wait any longer they will be paying out for IVF as well. This is not a good situation for anyone, especially when we have treatments now.

      It's really just this attitude that it's all the fat person's fault and if they were just not such a gluttonous slob with no willpower they could be thin that is holding back efforts to address the problem.

      --
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    24. Re:Something I've been wondering by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why we have so much sympathy for unemployed steel workers...

      We do. What we don't have is sympathy for people who are willfully ignorant. If you're sitting at a computer with access to the interwebs and you choose to use it to complain about how furriners terk your jerb instead of educating yourself about where them jerbs actually went, and someone explains the situation to you and you still don't change your ways, then there's no time to coddle you. It's time to move on to someone whose mind is not yet welded shut.

      --
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    25. Re:Something I've been wondering by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      And science does say exactly that, you dense motherfucker. By all means, show me the peer-reviewed study with the non-surgical technique that allows more than fractions of a percent of a cohort to lose more than 5 per cent of their body weight and keep it off for more than three years. Just 5 per cent.

      I have trouble with that, because, the obesity rate in the US is a relatively RECENT trend....

      You didn't have this many fat people waddling around the US just prior to the 70's.

      I don't think the humans in the US or the world have evolved such changes to the human metabolism, gut bacteria profile or anything else the give us the excuse that "its all genetics and we're pre-disposed to being fat, so why try to fight it?"

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    26. Re:Something I've been wondering by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

      It's more comfortable to imagine that other people's failings and problems are due to their agency, because it means you can avoid them. If I eat vegetables every day I won't get cancer like that sucker! Also, since it is his fault, he doesn't deserve my help! We also blame our own failings on contingency, so when we do get cancer it was because of unavoidable stray gamma rays and not from drinking ourselves to sleep with plastic jug vodka every day.

    27. Re:Something I've been wondering by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      That people sleep less as they age due to hormonal changes and now that lack of sleep leads to weight gain (gut bacteria play a big role too).

      That's not really what it found. What it found was that it changes the metabolic pathways to prefer the formation of fat tissue and retard the formation of muscle mass, so it will change the ratio between lean and fat body mass. Of course, this muscle consumes more energy than fat does, so this will end up decreasing the energy you burn, which will promote weight gain unless you change your diet.

      But here's the thing: you can fix both those problems. Exercise will promote the formation of muscle mass, eating less will prevent weight gain at all, and of course sleeping better (which is often promoted by both better diet and exercise) will fix the underlying issue altogether. The fundamental problem is that modern man (especially the modern American) eats too much, because high calorie low nutrition food is cheap, readily available to nearly everyone, advertised constantly, and surrounds most people every day. It's not genetics, it's not stress, and it's not lack of sleep: all of those have existed for all of mankind's existence, and widespread obesity is an incredibly new phenomenon.

      Also the gut bacteria/obesity link is vastly overstated, if a link exists at all in humans.

      --
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    28. Re:Something I've been wondering by yes-but-no · · Score: 1

      That's a neat trick. You stated the word 'magic' and then talk about rationality. The point is there are intelligent things which you may not understand (say a squirrel may not understand quantum mechanics).

    29. Re:Something I've been wondering by yes-but-no · · Score: 1

      And which part of 'it's subjective not objective' you can't understand? I can't show you xyz; you have to see it yourself. And science/symbolic processing of information has its limits (Godel's incompleteness theorem)

    30. Re:Something I've been wondering by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Hey if you're so smart, you'd realize muscle weighs more than fat.
      He also didn't mention anything about magic.

      Why do you feel the need to be a complete asshole on the internet? I'm sorry life sucks that badly for you.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    31. Re:Something I've been wondering by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Yeah! Because all a 54 year old father of three needs to do is move to New York City, call around to some friends, and get a job in publishing.

      A lot of people there were really optimistic that the solution to technological unemployment was to teach unemployed West Virginia truck drivers to code so they could participate in the AI revolution. I used to think this was a weird straw man occasionally trotted out by Freddie deBoer, but all these top economists were *super enthusiastic* about old white guys whose mill has fallen on hard times founding the next generation of nimble tech startups.

      http://slatestarcodex.com/2017...

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    32. Re: Something I've been wondering by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      How about everyone else though? You could put them through an army style boot camp to get them to lose weight, but after that is over, how many will keep it off for an extended period?

      The ones that keep exercising? You can't really complain otherwise.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    33. Re:Something I've been wondering by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Right?! What an insensitive clod!

      --
      I tend to rant.
    34. Re:Something I've been wondering by Translation+Error · · Score: 2

      It's not so far fetched for gut bacteria profiles to change so much in such a short time. If certain additives or preservatives likely to affect gut bacteria profiles came into widespread use in the 60s, it could result in large numbers of people being prone to weight gain from behavior that didn't previously cause it. Even if that doesn't mean we should say 'why try to fight obesity', it should change the way we try to deal with it.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    35. Re: Something I've been wondering by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      I consider staying up late, and not planning sufficient time to sleep, to be a moral failing. This sounds like science backing that up. Poor decisions have more than just one negative consequence.

    36. Re:Something I've been wondering by nine-times · · Score: 1

      It is *also* true that certain character flaws will lead to one being a failure.... So, a fat person may be fat because of their combination of metabolism and gut bacteria and so on. Such that when they eat a normal and reasonable amount of food, and even get some exercise, they stay fat. That happens. But it *also* happens that some people just over-indulge in unhealthy food and they don't exercise at all.

      I think that it's unfortunately more complicated than that.

      Because first, if people are just indulging, it raises the question, why are they indulging? If it's just a character flaw, why do they have that character flaw? Really, there are only a few possibilities.

      One is biology. Whether it's genetic or developmental, biology can contribute in all kinds of way. Maybe they're indulging because their brain chemistry at that moment is disposing them toward impulsive or self-gratifying actions. Or it could be environmental, e.g. your Italian grandmother makes big pasta dishes and pressures you to eat the whole thing. Another factor may be educational, that you weren't taught well enough about proper nutrition.

      My point is just to say, even if there are some people who indulge, I don't think it's because they just magically have "bad character" that results from neither nature nor nurture. It's not like fat people just have inferior souls, and they need a magical substance called "willpower" to eat properly.

    37. Re:Something I've been wondering by slinches · · Score: 1

      You don't necessarily need causality defying magic. He was saying that there are some people who can change their situation with effort and there are those who can't. Since you don't know for sure which you are, being optimistic and trying to do something about it is a better approach than being a nihilist. The former has a chance of working while the latter does not.

      That's the problem with saying that science predetermines your lot in the world exclusively. It's an excuse for those who face a little adversity to give up when they could otherwise push through and succeed. So, while there's no evidence that an internally controlled "will power" even exists, I will choose to believe in it. The alternative of accepting a deterministic fate is less likely to lead me to success, whether that choice is an illusion or not.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    38. Re:Something I've been wondering by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure we're genetically pre-disposed to being fat as a species, when high calorie food is so affordable and easily accessible. It wasn't all that long ago that malnutrition was a common problem even in the USA. The other really obvious factor is that people are just far less active than they used to be. Our genetics haven't adapted yet to either of those factors. There are likely plenty of other factors but I think it's silly to discount such obvious things.

    39. Re:Something I've been wondering by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      The point is the discussion was that, given people with equal motive and opportunity, their means may still differ. And even if those means are something "inside" of them, a part of them, an ability that they have, something still caused them to have that ability.

      Take physical strength for an analogy. There are heavy thing that need to be lifted. Two people have equal reason to want to lift them, and equal opportunity to do so. One of them takes advantage of that opportunity and lifts it with a modicum of effort and calls it done. The other takes equal advantage of his equal opportunity and struggles and struggles and struggles to lift the thing, and maybe gets it a little bit up, but ultimately to no avail.

      Why is it so much harder for the second person to lift things than the first? There's something lacking inside of them that the other has -- physical strength. But why do they lack it? There are surely things that each of them could do or not do to improve their strength or let it fail, but there are also lots and lots of things beyond their control.

      For example, my girlfriend works at a library and lifts and carries and stacks and shelves books all day long. I sit at a keyboard and type all day long. Yet if we need to haul in some luggage or something like that, I can just effortlessly carry a thing in each arm that it takes her both arms and a lot of effort to carry. She's doing more of the kind of stuff that should incidentally build up her strength, while I'm putting absolutely zero effort into being strong whatsoever. We both want the luggage in the house the same, her maybe even more, and we can both walk out to the car to get at it just as easily as the other. Why can I effortlessly do this thing that is so hard for her?

      Because I'm a big man and my genes tell my body to make hormones that trigger cells to grow and just build me some nice big muscles whether I want it to or not. She could, maybe, build up strength like mine, if she put a bunch of effort into it. But it's not her fault, in any kind of moral-responsibility sense, for not being as strong as me.

      Any personal characteristic is like this. Maybe not so genetically determined, maybe more nurture and less nature (though everything is a mix of both), but if one person has stronger will than the other, then there are some factors that went into giving that one person more strength of will than the other.

      Either that, or it's something analogous to saying that all my girlfriend needs to be as strong as me is to choose to be as strong as me, and magically she just will be, without anything happening to cause her to be.

      --
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    40. Re:Something I've been wondering by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      If you want changes and a better future for your kids and grand kids, move to a place that has those problems more checked.
      The USA is probably a lost case ... I doubt I/we will see any improvements in the many problems during my remaining lifetime (~40 years). It probably will end up somewhere between Russia and Venezuela in terms of quality of life and human rights issues.

      --
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    41. Re:Something I've been wondering by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Avoiding to get fat is easy.
      Getting down being slim is super hard.
      It is easier to "cure" anyone from a drug addiction (regardless wich) than helping him to lose weight and after losing it staying on that level.
      The amount of calories a human needs per day is ridiculous low in relation how easy you can intake them in our modern eating habits (emphasized by wrong died advices, artificial sweeteners, low fat yoghourts, corn sirup added into everything, hormones in meat etc.)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    42. Re:Something I've been wondering by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      People who refuse to take responsibility and self-motivate are never going to achieve as much.

      Really? Can you show me one failure that Donald Trump has taken responsibility for? He is constantly finding other people to blame. Even more so he constantly finds things to take credit for that are not significantly of his own doing.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    43. Re:Something I've been wondering by epine · · Score: 1

      It's been pretty well pounded into my skull.

      Well then, you've been paying undue attention to those who came out on top, because it's not being pounded into your skull by any of the rest of us.

      Do I smell envy? Or is that just burnt toast?

    44. Re:Something I've been wondering by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      I accused you of believing in magic and therefore abandoning rationality. Try to keep up.

      Sure there are things we don’t understand. We may not know what exactly gives a person better executive control (what you seem to mean by ”will”) — though actually we do know quite a few things about that, but setting that aside for now — nevertheless something brought about whatever it is about that person that gives them that ability. To deny that is to invoke magic, an event without a cause or explanation, and to give up on reason.

      All that is beside the fact that people with identical executive control and all the same pertinent knowledge and resources can nevertheless end up different weights quite easily.

      Also, you misunderstand Godel.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    45. Re:Something I've been wondering by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Your numbers do not hold up at all for diet changes.
      You switch to a healthy diet and you can be as slim as you want, except you have the wrong gut bacterias, and that is only a very small percentage of society.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    46. Re:Something I've been wondering by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      The other really obvious factor is that people are just far less active than they used to be. Our genetics haven't adapted yet to either of those factors.

      Well, then THIS is at least one thing that is to blame on the people themselves, this is something they CAN do to prevent obesity...start moving around and exercising more.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    47. Re:Something I've been wondering by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Yeah! Because all a 54 year old father of three needs to do is move to New York City, call around to some friends, and get a job in publishing.

      No, what he needs to do is to support political candidates who will at least try to keep corporate malfeasance in check, instead of candidates like Trump who will claim they will do and are doing great things for them while screwing them over. What he needs to do is support the social safety net that actually makes the state he lives in viable, since the corporations that exist there don't pay enough taxes to do so and California has to pick up the slack. What he needs to do is stop blaming foreigners for his woes and instead blame the people he's been helping to put in office, and then stop helping them. What he needs to do is to stop voting for his own demise.

      We're asked to believe that these people are as intelligent as anyone else, but they're not acting that way. I have sympathy for stupid people, but I don't take their opinions seriously.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    48. Re:Something I've been wondering by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Sure, it is something we can in theory do something about. However we're also genetically predisposed to conserve energy and avoid discomfort. That has played to our benefit as a species as we've progressed from being hunter gatherers fighting and scavenging for survival to where we are today.

      The other problem is that people are bad at understanding long term risks.Most of the risk in being obese is very long term and nebulous. It is easy for a person to look at those risks and weigh them as essentially inconsequential compared to the immediate costs or burdens involved in changing their weight now.

    49. Re: Something I've been wondering by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Start doing a Martial art, Aikido, Tai Chi, Baguazhang or Chi Gong.
      It is addictive enough to drive you to the training without any "overcoming yourself every day".

      Of cours MMA fanbois will ridicule you for doing a pussy martial art :D I guess you can live with that.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    50. Re:Something I've been wondering by strikethree · · Score: 1

      If you want to be very afraid, research "fillers" and how they do not need to be labelled since they supposedly have a "neutral" effect.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    51. Re:Something I've been wondering by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      So...vote for Democrats?

      Until a real leftist comes along? Yeah. It's better than voting for republicans, even if it's not that great.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    52. Re:Something I've been wondering by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      and I bet that they instead simply exercised too little and ate too much, you'd lose your money.
      Actually you would lose.
      The amount of calories you can burn by exercising is so small it has absolutely no effect on the fact if you are obese or not. Calorie intake, and the mix of them, e.g. fat + sugar versus fibers and proteins, is basically the only thing that influences your body weight.

      Hint: look up how much calories you burn doing swimming, weight lifting, cycling, running, sleeping. And then compare it with a simple hamburger.

      You will be surprised about weight lifting/gym hours ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    53. Re: Something I've been wondering by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Hae?

      What has lack of sleep to do with staying up late?
      Do you have a comprehension problem?

      There is a huge amount of people who have sleep problems ... that has nothing to do with which time you go to bed and which time you get up.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    54. Re: Something I've been wondering by dddux · · Score: 1

      It's just that too many people prefer "Ting Chew" to all the other martial arts. ;)

      --
      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
    55. Re:Something I've been wondering by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      It's better if the Democrat party burns to the ground. They and their corporate donors own the party. The Left needs a new vehicle, and if that means starting a new party, so be it. America needs real opposition, not a Uniparty who has more in common with each other in DC than the rest of the country.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  3. sleep affects hormones by js290 · · Score: 2

    "Fat: people do not get fat by eating it, they get fat by not being able to burn it. And, that is 100% controlled by hormones, leptin & insulin." @DrRosedale http://bit.ly/2h0Xmg1

    "...the mobilization of fat from adipose tissue is inhibited by numerous stimuli. The most significant inhibition is that exerted upon adenylate cyclase by insulin." @medicalbiochem http://bit.ly/2LiPkNE

    "The underlying theme of the glucose-fatty acid cycle is that the utilization of one nutrient (e.g. glucose) directly inhibits the use of the other (in this case fatty acids) without hormonal mediation." @medicalbiochem http://bit.ly/2v2lq54

    --
    "Tempers are wearing thin. Let's just hope some robot doesn't kill everybody." --Bender
    1. Re: sleep affects hormones by Ionized · · Score: 4, Informative

      you're pretty smug for someone that is so terribly fucking wrong

      '100 calories' is not the exact immutable block you think it is. calories as it pertains to human diet are an inexact & best-guess science. 100 calories for you may not be 100 calories for someone else.

      differences in gut bacteria can have drastically different effects in nutrient & energy absorption. differences in metabolism can affect the amount of calories burnt by two individuals performing the same actions.

      two different people could eat the exact same food, perform the exact same physical activities, and one could gain weight while the other lost weight.

    2. Re: sleep affects hormones by Ionized · · Score: 2

      100 calories is not 100 calories TO THE PERSON EATING IT and that is the only fucking thing that matters. everyone will shit some of those calories out, and the amount they shit out can vary significantly from person to person.

      i never argued against the conservation of energy.

      capitalizing the first word of sentences is for little bitches. and work emails. since you're not paying me, you don't get capitalization.

    3. Re: sleep affects hormones by Ionized · · Score: 1

      nobody will get 101 calories from 100.

      but nobody will get 100 calories from 100, either. you are not 100% efficient. you poop calories out.

      some people poop out more calories than others. get it now?

    4. Re: sleep affects hormones by Ionized · · Score: 1

      If they are not processing the calories, then it is not impacting their blood sugar, glucose or hormonal balances either. You can swallow a balloon filled with sugar, you wont gain weight from it, post dump, and it won't keep your energy up.

      yes that was my entire point. how fucking stupid are you? some people will be able to extract more calories from their food, and they will gain more weight. other people will extract less calories, and find it easier to stay thin.

      furthermore, some gut bacteria produce lipopolysaccharide, which can increase blood sugar & insulin. this causes the body to try and store more calories as fat, instead of using it for energy or to build muscle. thus lowering metabolism & causing feelings of lethargy, and making exercise less effective at building muscle mass

      on the other hand, some gut bacteria strengthen the gut barrier, reducing inflammation & insulin resistance, which leads to lower blood sugar, more available energy, and less tendency for the body to store fat.

      I would put up ten grand on a one month inpatient study against your ten grand. The 200+# patient is given 1500 nutritionally balanced calories, a multi vitamin and 2 mandatory sessions a day of 20 minutes on a low impact recumbent bike at 70+% max heart rate average. The patient will be provided with study materials, books, and exercise equipment to occupy the rest of their time. The patient will lose at least 2% of body weight, likely 4%. FYI 8% is max recommended loss rate for that period.

      this is a stupid study. of course they will lose weight, but they will be exhausted and hungry and miserable the entire time. you can FORCE people to do lots of things they otherwise wouldn't do themselves. nobody is claiming weight loss is impossible, just that it can be incredibly difficult.

  4. External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Another article, another piece to a solved puzzle. If you want to gain weight, what does google say? You have to eat more calories than you expend. The excess will be stored as fat.

    And if you want to lose weight, you do the opposite. This will never stop working. People cling to these articles out of nothing but confirmation bias for their continued gluttony. Its not hormones, insulin, genetics, PCOS, or medications. Just gluttony.

    1. Re:External locus of control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ooh, do depression next. 'Think more happy thoughts than unhappy.'

      What's that? The brain and various chemical subsystems of the body can malfunction in a way that makes a person think and behave in a way that's beyond their control for everything *except* caloric intake and expenditure? How convenient for you. Scientifically untrue, but like you give a shit.

    2. Re: External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1, Informative

      A calorie deficit is not starving. Its called being a responsible adult and not a child that wants treats 24/7.

    3. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      What a lovely argument you're having with yourself. Life sucks, and calories count. Even if you don't.

      Oh wait thats right. They're controlling us through the food we eat. Its a global conspiracy cooked up by the food industry that is... oops, occams razor. People are overeating. Womp womp

    4. Re: External locus of control by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      A calorie deficit is not enough. You need to have a good balance or the weight will just pop back.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re: External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      A calorie deficit is not enough. You need to have a good balance or the weight will just pop back.

      Its more than enough. The 'pop back' part is people that ignore their TDEE and stop counting. Its called a normal amount of food.

    6. Re: External locus of control by aticus.finch · · Score: 1

      A calorie deficit is not enough. You need to have a good balance or the weight will just pop back.

      A temporary calorie deficit is not enough. A permanent calorie deficit is enough.

      Last I checked, the human body does not spontaneously create energy. Claiming that weight can be gained while on a calorie deficit is the same as claiming that the body creates its own energy

    7. Re:External locus of control by sweet+'n+sour · · Score: 1

      Here's the part that you're missing:

      While you can consume calories, what gets absorbed by the body, and then how it is used by the body varies greatly. I'd love to see tests that count calories before consumption and then check for calories when it comes out the other end.

      Bacteria in the gut plays a huge role in this. Here's an example: "Woman Becomes Obese After Fecal Transplant From Overweight Donor" https://www.iflscience.com/hea...

    8. Re: External locus of control by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's definitely not enough and you fail to understand metabolism. As soon as you reduce your diet 100 calories, your body will adjust it's processes and you will not lose weight.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re: External locus of control by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, you've never struggled with weight loss, and you lack even basic research on the topic (and you have a cognitive bias because anytime you find evidence to the contrary you give an excuse to ignore that evidence, without even investigation). Body processes aren't static: if you drop 300 calories from your diet your body will adjust (mainly noticed by having no energy and wanting to sleep a lot), and you won't actually lose weight. Is it *possible* to lose weight? Of course, but it's not easy , and the limiting factor is knowledge not "will power."

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:External locus of control by Pfhorrest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Calories eaten and absorbed minus calories burnt from exercise and resting metabolism will be stored as fat, sure. You might note that some parts of that sentence describe things not under voluntary control. I've italicized them for you in case your obvious mental deficit makes them hard for you to find.

      You know there are literally drugs that will make people just drop weight off, right? Problem is they have a bunch of terrible side-effects. These things were sold, and then problems with them found, and lawsuits were had over all of that. If you can put a chemical into a fat person and that will make them thin (so long as you don't care about the other health issues it causes) there are obviously factors at play besides just gluttony and sloth.

      Research like this is looking to what else, aside from those kinds of drugs, might affect those factors.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    11. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      Here's the part that you're missing:

      While you can consume calories, what gets absorbed by the body, and then how it is used by the body varies greatly. I'd love to see tests that count calories before consumption and then check for calories when it comes out the other end.

      They already did, and the result is called calories. Its called the modified atwater system. The case study of gut floras effects are interesting, but they are not breaking physics and creating energy from nothing.

    12. Re:External locus of control by asackett · · Score: 1

      People cling to these articles out of nothing but confirmation bias for their continued gluttony. Its not hormones, insulin, genetics, PCOS, or medications. Just gluttony.

      So hypothyroid doesn't exist. Cool.

      --

      Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.

    13. Re: External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, you've never struggled with weight loss

      Yeah about that.

      Body processes aren't static: if you drop 300 calories from your diet your body will adjust (mainly noticed by having no energy and wanting to sleep a lot), and you won't actually lose weight. Is it *possible* to lose weight? Of course, but it's not easy , and the limiting factor is knowledge not "will power."

      Might want to look up homeostasis before you make the claim the bodies processes aren't static. I don't ignore the evidence, I've lived it. Weightloss is not easy, but its simple. I didn't suffer a lack of energy nor did I wish to sleep a lot. Sorry, people that are overweight or obese are doing exactly what I was doing; eating more than they need per day and having the excess stored as fat.

    14. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      Go on, do tell me where I am mistaken.

    15. Re: External locus of control by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Your going to claim that body processes are static? Did you even read the linked article? It's unfortunate you are so blind to evidence right in front of your face, but otherwise you seem like a cool guy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re: External locus of control by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      It's definitely not enough and you fail to understand metabolism. As soon as you reduce your diet 100 calories, your body will adjust it's processes and you will not lose weight.

      After your body adjusts then you no longer have a deficit. OP was right - you need to maintain the deficit as your metabolism changes, which means consuming fewer calories as you lose weight. I see very few people doing that.

      If you're already overeating then your metabolism is already incorrect; once you go into a calorie deficit your metabolism changes to accommodate that deficit, which means that you then need to eat even less. At some point your metabolism can't be changed anymore and then you simply maintain the calorie intake you have at that particular point.

      There are rare conditions (perhaps 1 in a thousand, or less) that can cause you to starve to death while being obese; the majority of people are simply eating too much.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    17. Re: External locus of control by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      The human body can make its own energy, by breaking down those useful things it previously built - things like your eyes, muscles, and tendons and especially your brain. That's called starvation, which is the one and only result of permanent "calorie reduction" plans.

      It's only going to do that after it's gotten all the energy it can from fat. If you've got no fat then you don't have to have a deficit.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    18. Re: External locus of control by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If all you do is reduce your calorie count, and continue to reduce e it more and more, you're going to end up in worse state than you were originally. You need to get the proper nutrition with your diet.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    19. Re:External locus of control by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Another article, another piece to a solved puzzle. If you want to gain weight, what does google say? You have to eat more calories than you expend. The excess will be stored as fat. And if you want to lose weight, you do the opposite. This will never stop working.

      Indeed. If you have an equation with an equals sign in the middle you can force the equation on both sides just by pushing one of the many variables really really hard.

    20. Re:External locus of control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's complete and utter bull. I can make you gain fat tissue while you eat NOTHING, literally ZERO calories, all I have to do is inject you with lots of insulin. It will absolutely work. At least for the week or two until you die. When you're high on insulin, your body will first deplete its glucose, then its glycogen, then in desperation it will start breaking down muscles for protein to turn into glucose, WHILE STILL DESPERATELY STUFFING WHAT LITTLE ENERGY YOU HAVE INTO MORE FAT. And then you will literally die of starvation while also gaining fat at the same time.

      So how does someone eating literally NOTHING and gaining fat fit into your pretty little pet theory?

      Insulin is the "make fat" signal, and when your body is high on it, for whatever reason, you WILL make fat, period, even if your organism has to pretty much shut down metabolism, or literally eat itself to do it.

      And guess what. Typical Western diet and feeding patterns make people produce way more insulin than they need, even if they are on calorie deficit. Most diets do so as well. That's why they universally fail.

    21. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      Do tell, what are these many variables.

    22. Re: External locus of control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just shut up with your bullshit facts and scientific studies.

      You have no idea how hard it is for totally awesome and not at all sad message board trolls who are "350#, powerlifters, who ride the exercycle three hours a day after cleaning out closets over a period of three months, while they eat only 1500 calories a day".

      Your claims that it is "thermodynamically impossible" to fuel that level of activity on only 1500 calories a day, based on nothing but common sense, logical thought and scientifically demonstrable empirical data, falls flat in the face of a self reported anecdotal internet claim.

      Also, No collusion! But her emails!

    23. Re:External locus of control by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Metabolism is a big one, which itself is a wonderfully large equation with variables which among other things include calorie intake with some nice time dependent integration in the formula as well.

      But by all means ignore science and continue thinking this complex topic can be simplified to calories in vs out.

    24. Re:External locus of control by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If it were as easy as eating less and doing more exercise then people wouldn't find it so hard to lose weight. Clearly it's more than just balancing the calorie chequebook.

      The main problem is that once you have put on significant weight your body fights you to stop to taking it off. If you try to eat fewer calories it cranks up the feelings of hunger and reduces energy consumption, making you feel tired, which in turn has mental health consequences over the longer term.

      Even if you don't believe that, you must surely accept that blaming people for "gluttony" doesn't work either. Berating and denigrating them for being overweight does not help or encourage them to lose weight. From a pure engineering point of view we need a better solution.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      If it were as easy as eating less and doing more exercise then people wouldn't find it so hard to lose weight. Clearly it's more than just balancing the calorie chequebook.

      Its not.

      The main problem is that once you have put on significant weight your body fights you to stop to taking it off. If you try to eat fewer calories it cranks up the feelings of hunger and reduces energy consumption, making you feel tired, which in turn has mental health consequences over the longer term.

      Got any sources for those bold claims?

      Even if you don't believe that, you must surely accept that blaming people for "gluttony" doesn't work either. Berating and denigrating them for being overweight does not help or encourage them to lose weight. From a pure engineering point of view we need a better solution.

      Yes I could have framed it better. How about this, you stop using food as entertainment and find something else. Also, vanity works far better as a reason to lose than health. Health is invisible.

    26. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      I don't think I am ignoring the science here and its not complex. You want it to be complex, that gives you an out. Too bad, so sad. You eat more than your TDEE per day, you wear it. You can scream metabolic rate all you like, not going to change the physics behind weightloss.

    27. Re:External locus of control by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Got any sources for those bold claims?

      Why yes, I do.

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.co...

      The NYT has a more readable summary with the key graphs: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/0...

      How about this, you stop using food as entertainment and find something else. Also, vanity works far better as a reason to lose than health.

      If you really believe that people are fat because they use food as "entertainment" then it rather undermines your advice to them. Also, if vanity worked then obesity would be cured by the magazines in the doctor's waiting room. The constant bombardment of images of thin bodies and the promotion of that standard of beauty would have fixed the problem long ago.

      Shaming and depression are discredited as weight loss methods. In fact they tend to have the opposite effect. Fortunately medical science knows that and is making progress towards real solutions.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    28. Re:External locus of control by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Cute. I like your judgemental approach. It makes everything seem so clear.

      Could you explain to me how I was so virtuous when I was younger? I could eat a whole pizza, a tub of ice cream, etc, essentially "pigging out" and not gain a single pound that would stay on my body. I was somewhat active. It was not unheard of for me to put on more than 100 miles in a day on a bicycle, but I could eat FAR beyond that and not gain weight.

      So I could eat as gluttonously as I desired and not gain weight. The lack of gaining weight made me virtuous using your criteria.

      I am of the opinion that you should show some restraint in judging people regarding weight until you have hard evidence pointing towards your default judgements. It is not as simple as calories going in and calories burned.

      That being said, I have seen a lot of "slobs" that are disgustingly huge because of lack of control. That does not mean that all weight gain is due to being a pig.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    29. Re:External locus of control by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If you think I said something out of line with physics then you didn't read my post properly.

    30. Re:External locus of control by Ionized · · Score: 1

      nobody can create energy out of thin air.

      but some people can extract more energy from the same amount of food as other people.

      100 calories is not the same for everyone. no machine is 100% efficient. for a quantity of food that we think of as '100 calories,' the average adult may only be able to absorb 80 calories of energy from it. other individuals might be able to get 90 calories of energy from it, due to differences in gut flora.

      now factor in metabolism as well. some individuals burn more calories than others, even while performing the same exact level of physical activity.

      add the two together and you will see that the statement 'eat less calories + burn more calories exercising = weight loss' is broadly true but a wildly incomplete view of the situation - some people may need to exercise MUCH MORE and eat MUCH LESS just to maintain the same level of body weight as other people. don't be so fucking smug.

    31. Re: External locus of control by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      No.

      A calorie deficit means you're lacking the food you need to function properly. You need to balance, not deprive.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    32. Re:External locus of control by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      If it were as easy as eating less and doing more exercise then people wouldn't find it so hard to lose weight. Clearly it's more than just balancing the calorie chequebook.

      Easy isn't the proper term. I'd say *simple* makes more sense. Thing is, balancing your calorie "chequebook" and getting off your ass regularly to do something that's generally uncomfortable to do, like actual exercise, is pretty hard to do consistently for most people. It's not complicated though.

      Your body will adapt to what you eat. If you over eat a lot and suddenly start eating less, you'll always feel starved. Staying within a solid routine is hard, and easy to break out of once you get going.

      Nobody needs to be shamed for failing at these things, but they also shouldn't try to pass it off as if it wouldn't work anyways if they didn't fail.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    33. Re: External locus of control by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "Weightloss is not easy, but its simple."

      It's simple to a simpleton whose never lost weight in the real world. Anyone can be a weight loss champion on the internet but demonstrating a real understanding of weight loss is required to be convincing. You aren't convincing.

      A calorie excess / deficit is necessary but is not sufficient and is only one of a large number of complex interacting elements that are only partially understood, less well understood by you than most of the public. Grow up.

    34. Re: External locus of control by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      No, it's just a mislabeling of "calorie deficit" and perhaps "weight gain" as well.

      I would suggest you try harder to understand the complexity of the issue rather than assert useless and meaningless claims of spontaneous energy creation.

    35. Re:External locus of control by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "Calories eaten is under everyones voluntary control. I'm not sure what your point is here."

      Spoken like someone who's never experienced weight problems. There's a real pattern here with you.

      Do you think that people desire to be obese? Do you think it's only you who's figured out the obvious? Is it really as simple as a character flaw that makes everyone else not as good as you?

    36. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      That study highlighted something already well known. If your mass is less, you require less energy.

      If they returned to eating more than they needed, on an individual basis, they would store the excess as fat. It doesn't say anything about making you feel tired or cranking up feelings of hunger.

      This is not a valid excuse for gluttony.

    37. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      Cute. I like your judgemental approach. It makes everything seem so clear.

      Could you explain to me how I was so virtuous when I was younger? I could eat a whole pizza, a tub of ice cream, etc, essentially "pigging out" and not gain a single pound that would stay on my body. I was somewhat active. It was not unheard of for me to put on more than 100 miles in a day on a bicycle, but I could eat FAR beyond that and not gain weight.

      Easily. You were eating at or below your TDEE per day.

      I am of the opinion that you should show some restraint in judging people regarding weight until you have hard evidence pointing towards your default judgements. It is not as simple as calories going in and calories burned.

      My judgements are based on physical laws, you might as well be arguing with me about gravity here

      That being said, I have seen a lot of "slobs" that are disgustingly huge because of lack of control. That does not mean that all weight gain is due to being a pig.

      All weight gain is certainly not due to being a pig. Pigs actually know when to stop

    38. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      Yes, we have created TDEE calculators for that. We know that one side of the equation will be 'unfair' to short women and at the extreme end an extra 300kcal per day for a tall man.

      Does that excuse the short female from eating herself into obesity? You tell me.

    39. Re: External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      I agree, when you are within a healthy BMI range. We are facing an obesity epidemic though, so that balance you speak of is

      tipped heavily one way, requiring a course correction. Ergo, calorie deficit !

    40. Re: External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      It's not about me, its about physics and they are quite simple on the subject of weightloss. There is nothing 'partially' understood about thermodynamics here.

      Insult me all you like. That won't change the truth of peoples continued gluttony.

    41. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      Spoken like someone who's never experienced weight problems.

      Ah another one doubting me personally

      There's a real pattern here with you. Do you think that people desire to be obese?

      No

      Do you think it's only you who's figured out the obvious?

      No, lots of people understand basic physics.

      Is it really as simple as a character flaw that makes everyone else not as good as you?

      Yes. Taking responsibility of the only body they get in life.

    42. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you get this kind of information, but its so wrong its hard not to see it as satire.

    43. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      I don't think eating less is quite as hard as out running usain bolt my dude.

    44. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      There is nothing incorrect about what I said. Calories are not a mystical force that only work on some, not on others.

      No excuses. If you are overweight or obese, its your fault for ignoring your TDEE.

    45. Re:External locus of control by Ionized · · Score: 1

      you're way too hung up on assigning blame, as if that is the only thing that matters here - pointing fingers at folks.

      you're also still ignoring the impact of gut bacteria, which we are learning is incredibly influential in how you absorb nutrients and put on weight. TDEE is only the second half of the equation - calories burned - but calories absorbed is just as important.

      yes, anyone can eat less, exercise more, and lose weight. that is not under debate. but it will take some people WAY, WAY more effort than others.

      it's easy for someone to sit up on their high horse and say 'just eat less and exercise more, duh!' as if that is an easy thing to do. the number of obese people in our society, and the percentage of people who regain weight within a few years even if they do manage to lose weight, is a pretty good indicator that it can be incredibly difficult.

    46. Re:External locus of control by strikethree · · Score: 1

      LOL. If the human body were a simply combustion chamber, like in your car's engine, I would agree with your simplistic view. Storing/burning fat is not as simple as "too many calories, store as fat, too few calories, burn fat.", if it were, we could look at everyone who is fat and morally shame them without worrying about whether or not we are being unfair.

      My judgements are based on physical laws, you might as well be arguing with me about gravity here

      Funny that you should mention that. :)

      Gravity is NOT a fundamental force as you and most people tend to believe. It is the result of acceleration due to time differentials. Go ahead and dismiss this without further thought as I am sure you will; however, you should probably answer this before you do if you want to sleep without any nagging doubts in your mind:

      Time flows more slowly the closer to a mass you get. For example, GPS satellites orbiting the Earth need to account for this aspect of Relativity http://www.astronomy.ohio-stat... , about 3/4 of the way down for the relevant information. What would you expect to see happen if time was flowing at different speeds but you were sitting still? For myself, and apparently I may be alone in this, I would expect to feel an acceleration since I can't satisfy both time references by staying still.

      All weight gain is certainly not due to being a pig. Pigs actually know when to stop

      Again with the judgemental attitude. Relax bro. Life is not that serious. We all leave this place sooner or later. Try to make it more fun since it is all ephemeral. :)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    47. Re: External locus of control by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      One of the best diets is: adjust your day to an 8h period and an 16h period. Only eat during the 8h.
      You actually can shift the 8h on a day to day basics and only need to make sure that you don't eat for at least 16h before the next eating period starts.

      Of course that rules out: getting up at 5:00 having breakfast at 6:00, lunch at 12:00 and dinner at 18:00 ...

      I for my part only eat once or twice a day ... depending where I am and what I do physically. When I'm in Thailand I likely eat all day long, 5 5 5

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    48. Re:External locus of control by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Calories in food are measured by "average human is able to digest". There is no real hard number.
      E.g. the amount of "energy" you need to digest a certain thing, is already substracted from the amount of calories.

      E.g. you eat 200gram potatoes and it says 800cal, in fact it has perhaps 900cal or 1000cal, but "scientiests know" you have to burn some 100-200cal to even digest it, so they substract that and come down to 800cal.

      Then again if you eat straw (or anything containing fibers) , for the human body it has 0 as in zero calories, because we can not digest straw. But for cows it has a lot of calories as they can actually digest it. However: humans who got contaminated with the same gut bacteria as those cows: can digest fibers, too! Hence something that has 500cal on paper (for humans) suddenly has 1500 cals for humans who are "infected" by cow gut bacteria. That converts a healthy broccoli into a cal bomb.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    49. Re:External locus of control by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      It is not wrong. You are an idiot.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    50. Re:External locus of control by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      I'm really not trying to assign blame on anyone, I was obese once. The way, way more effort you speak of is eating less.

      37c of body temp among every other organ is not accomplished for free, no matter how efficient your gut flora.

      Its not easy. But it is simple. Rebounds are from thinking about diet as a temporary thing and then being 'finished'.

      Then posting before and after pics fishing for likes. Except that should never happen. Gaining so much weight should be a point of shame.

      After all, you don't deserve a medal for staying out of prison.

  5. Obvious Medical Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's not surprising that humans when under stress have their bodies adapt to that stress. We are the most malleable organism on the planet, it's what got us where we are. On a primitive level, if your body is coursing with corticosteroids and "cortico-similars", then of course it's going to try to preserve nutrition for another day, draw calcium from bones, etc. That "soup" of steroids is definitively going to alter how you think, You are in survival mode after all. Stress from a job can kill you, this is why. I'm simplifying, systems are interconnected, etc. But the basic principle applies. Your health is more than keeping "bad" germs away. In fact, germ theory is positively archaic. A useful guideline in the jungle, but since then, we've figured out that we can pit microscopic organisms against one another. They work faster, have specialized proteins that can efficiently do what a factory cannot, and n i g g e r s are outdated, obsolete, farm equipment. Thank you for your time, and fuck the lameness filter.

  6. Nature vs nurture by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Why is it every time the nature vs nurture argument comes up, the strongest proponents always seem to argue the two extremes. That everything is up to nature (your genes, hormones, etc), or everything is up to nurture (your character, work ethic, morals, etc)?

    Can't people for a moment entertain the possibility that all of these factors contribute to individual behavior? Yes, life deals some people a better set of cards than others. But that doesn't mean you have no control. You still get to decide how well or poorly you play those cards. I was hard-wired to be extremely acrophobic. When I was a child, I couldn't even stand on a second floor balcony. But I didn't just accept that as my fate. I worked against it, exposing myself to heights and gradually acclimating myself to situations which triggered the fear. I still get anxious with heights, and avoid exposing myself to it unnecessarily. But I no longer turn into a puddle of goo just from being a couple stories up.

    Obesity is a great example. No we shouldn't tease people for being overweight. But neither should we pretend that it's acceptable. It's one of if not the biggest health risk most people face today. And the campaign against fat shaming seems to have overshot its mark, and is now killing people by making it socially acceptable to be fat.

    1. Re:Nature vs nurture by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      "pretend that it's acceptable"

      The fuck are you talking about? Just what other personal choices are you putting into that category?

    2. Re:Nature vs nurture by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      If obesity is a health issues, treat it like one instead of as a moral failure

      The only time in my adult life I have ever been leas than 10lbs overweight was when I literally could not afford to eat more than like a slice of bread a day for a year. I’ve almost always been much heavier.

      In recent years I decided to really prioritize trying to lose weight more sustainably. Following my docto’s advice I skip breakfast, do a 600 calorie workout, eat a 200 calorie lunch (baked tofu), do another 600 calorie workout, and them eat a single actual meal of around 700-1000 calories (mostly soy, lentils, and garbanzos), every weeday.

      My girlfriend won’t go along with that on weekends with me so we eat picnics of usually turkey wraps with apples and yogurt, maybe grab an afternoon snack of whatever she feels like, take a leisurely stroll around a park for “exercise” that’s not even a warmup to my normal routine,,and then eat out somewhere for dinner. That weekend routine is her normal lifestyle and she ia rail thin. Meanwhile this lifestyle of deprivation and hours of exercise a day has me now ONLY about 100lbs overweight, and steady, so long as I keep up the exhauting work.

      Doctor says she wishes other patients would comply with treatment like I do. We’ve’ checked for thyroid and diabetes issues and that’s all fine. She has no further recommendations. So what am I supposed to do? Just... feel like shit about myself? Already doing that, it’s not helping. Starve myself for over a year again and probably suffer further health consequences while my job and life fall apart around me due to my complete malnourished breakdown? No thanks. Hope that some scientists figured out what the fuck is behind this obesity problem? I’m betting on that.

      I keep killing myself in vain anyway meanwhile because if I wasn’t I’d feel even more like shit about myself but results are all that matter and everything anyone has suggested I try has had negligible results so tre problem is something fucking else.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    3. Re:Nature vs nurture by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      But neither should we pretend that it's acceptable. It's one of if not the biggest health risk most people face today. And the campaign against fat shaming seems to have overshot its mark, and is now killing people by making it socially acceptable to be fat.
      The problem is the food, hence the food industry. If you have no laws against unhealthy food, how do you suppose to prevent people getting fat?
      Or look at asian countries, they don't need laws, because the culture simply loathes unhealthy food. Perhaps you find a way to establish a healthy culture, a health culture, a healthy food culture.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  7. Re:Sample size of 15 by mikael · · Score: 1

    You need sleep in order for the body to flush toxins out of the cellular tissues through the lymphatic system and into urine or perspiration. Cells just usually dump their waste products outside their membranes for the body to clean up. If the body can't get rid of these toxins, it wraps them up in lipid layers and stores them in fat cells until they can be removed. Vegetables have enzymes that help break up these toxins. Anything with lots of fatty chemicals will clog up your lymphatic system which in turn causes other problems like infections and a reduced immune system. That's why health clubs usually offer massage services - that's a way of clearing the lymphatic systems.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  8. Re:Complete nonsense by Duckeenie · · Score: 1

    Science is objective by nature. Isolated studies aren't meant to be taken as conclusive, it's just the press that likes to present them that way. Best just to view these studies as "interesting" and move along.

  9. Re:Complete nonsense by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    It seems clear that if you eat a diet with little processed foods and exercise a bit, you should be fine.

    Please explain how there were fat people before processed foods on supermarket shelves, and before ubiquitous powered transportation. Those people ate a diet with little processed foods and they got a bit of exercise, and they were still fat.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. Devil is in the details. by DrYak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Calories eaten and absorbed minus calories burnt from exercise and resting metabolism will be stored as fat, sure.

    Calories eaten is under everyones voluntary control. I'm not sure what your point is here.

    His point is that the sentence is running for a bit longer than that.

    Yes, "calories eaten", i.e.: things that you put into your mouth and chew on is more or less under voluntary control (though might be influenced by impulsive behaviours, etc.)
    But then you don't necessarily control how much of what's in there will get absorbed by the body. (though you can slightly influence the body's ability to uptake stuff, by changing the mix of what you eat. e.g.: Food's content of fiber has an influence of how fast it goes through your gut).

    You can voluntarily decide to burn some calories by doing exercice, but you don't have a direct control of how much the body will decide to burn for the rest.
    Some might have indirect influence (doing lots of exercice on a regular basis, body will use more energy to make and maintain muscle mass, even while you rest), (your body burn calories to maintain temperature and you can influence that), but there are tons of other processes, where the body could decide to burn energy instead of storing it long term, on which you don't have lots of direct control.

    That what the " {food eaten} - {calories burned} = {remaining fat} " crowd doesn't get.s
    When you look into the details, there are gazillion of various energy consuming processes going inside a body, most of which will have some impact on body mass distribution type, but which you can't directly control necessarily.

    Your basic mistake boils down to thinking of the body as a "bathtub" model : water (=food) goes in through the faucet (=eating), water (=burned calories) goes out through the drain (=exercice), the balance determine how much water there's in the tub (=fat storage).
    It's a bit too oversimplified.

    Something more realistic would be to imagine it as a conveyor belt. The belt rolls from your mouth (and the food on your plate) to the ass hole (and your toilet).
    Along the way there are dozens of worker on station, sometime picking things up (absorbing), sometime putting things down (excreting) and most of the time passing stuff among each other.
    Fat is just one guy making a pile of reservers, when instructed so (= include influence of tons of hormonal messages), and who can occasionally handle out packs or reserve whenever/if asked so by other guys working on the same chain.
    Physical effort is just one of the client that might request reserves from the fat guy.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Devil is in the details. by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      You appear to be desperately focusing on the involuntary side of the equation, trying to make it outside of peoples control, therefore not their fault they gain weight. Except everybody has the same equation. There is definitely going to be a difference between a 5 foot barely any lean muscle female and a giant 6'5' man, by sheer mass alone. They both control the input however. This means its no mistake, if they gained weight, nobody forced them to overeat past their individual TDEE. The people with allergies or an inability to digest certain things are a minority given the obesity levels. The food is working if people are able to gain weight to these recorded levels. You are making it needlessly complex and I don't even factor in exercise because its basically worthless for weight loss.

    2. Re:Devil is in the details. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      You are perfectly right: That what the " {food eaten} - {calories burned} = {remaining fat} " crowd doesn't get.s
      A chocolate bar, like in the link below, consists out of sugar and fat. If you are already obese and eat one, the mixture of sugar and fat will cause an insulin reaction. Depositing 100% of the fat in the fat cells, and burning most of the sugar. If you eat a few of them in short notice, even most of the sugar gets converted into fat, too. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of calories you just ate and what your body burns on a regular basis per day.

      https://www.worldofsweets.de/M...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  11. George Carlin by Zorro · · Score: 1

    Eat right, Excercise and DIE ANYWAY!

  12. Re:Sample size of 15 by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

    Movement (e.g. walking) drives lymphatic circulation, and your body walls off problems with granulomas of white blood cells, not fat.

  13. So, your boss is making you fat by whitroth · · Score: 1

    Poor sleep - all the calls and texts from your bosses are disturbing your sleep habits, interfering with your life *outside* work, leaving you stressed out while you do sleep.

    Tell your bosses that you can't answer after hours, because it's making you fat. (And how fat are your bosses, anyway?)

  14. Um... a lot of those steel workers don't own by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    a computer, much less know how to use them. If they have a smart phone it's because they needed a cell and that's what the guy at the shop gave them. Some folks are just at their limits. It doesn't help that they're continuously fed a stream of misinformation in order to exploit them for votes.

    And, well, furriners did take a lot of jobs. Outsourcing is a thing and it's eroded the manufacturing base. If you're a blue collar guy you lost a lot of construction work to Mexicans here illegally. Same as white collar programmers lost jobs to Indians overseas and here on H1-Bs. If anything the blue collar guys have more reason to be frustrated. At least we're losing our jobs to legal immigrants...

    Moreover there's almost no attempt to discuss the real job killer: automation. In 40 years America has doubled it's manufacturing output while decreasing the number of jobs by 2/3rds (go look up the John Oliver piece on trade wars). And nobody will talk about this because the only possible solution is socialism.

    The ruling class doesn't want that. And to be honest the working class doesn't really either... except for themselves. I can't tell you how many ex-military guys I know who are deeply opposed to redistributing wealth but are also counting on a fat gov't pension and VA supplied single payer health care. And these aren't war heroes missing limbs. They're they guys who put shit on planes and took shit off planes. I'm not saying they don't deserve those things. I'm saying _everyone_ deserves those things. But I'll be damned if I know how to get people to believe that and act on that belief...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Um... a lot of those steel workers don't own by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And, well, furriners did take a lot of jobs. [...]
      Moreover there's almost no attempt to discuss the real job killer: automation. In 40 years America has doubled it's manufacturing output while decreasing the number of jobs by 2/3rds

      You could not have supported my point more enthusiastically if you tried. The real job killer is automation, and talking about foreigners taking jobs is a bad joke when those jobs were deliberately given to foreigners by the "job creators" in order to save money and/or to secure employees who could be abused.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Um... a lot of those steel workers don't own by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      The thing is, "furriners" *didn't* take a lot of jobs. American companies did. The wealthy did. They automated processes. They outsourced to other countries so that they could lower the labour cost but still charge the same amount, maximizing their profits. So they could maximize their personal bank accounts at everyone else's expense.

      But the American public has been brainwashed into looking for a convenient scapegoat like "foreigners" or "illegal aliens", and the companies that are actually at fault are happy to perpetuate that brainwashing cause it deflects people from being angry at *them*.

  15. Proper handling of obesity by DrYak · · Score: 1

    $other_person has an easier time staying skinny than you. Lucky them.

    Yup, I personally happen to have a broken thyroid gland (which can have very real impact on weight uptake).
    But I don't complain, I just compensate it properly so I can stay fit despite it.

    and you can absolutely prevent yourself from gaining weight

    Yes, you can indeed DO stuff to help staying away from morbid obesity...

    by not eating more than you burn.
    Even if you feel a conservation of energy explanation, is too simple, it doesn't make it wrong.

    And there lies the problem.
    By oversimplifying, you're reducing all overweight people to cry babies who simply lack the self discipline to not eat 2 gallon-sized buckets of mayonnaise per day, and the only step they walk in a day are to reach their car (and/or to their segway).
    And that to even consider anything but "eat less" is just a lame excuse that the "fatties" are making up to avoid putting any effort into it.
    That's not the proper way to do it.

    If you have weight problems, the proper way is to talk to your doctor, let him eventually - according to needs - address you to a nutritionist. Or an endocrinologist if he thinks it's necessary. etc.
    You need to take everything into account and get the best approach adapted to the person (instead of just blaming them).

    But that requires actually having a functional public health system. Oh, yeah, I forgot what you had in the US.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  16. Bathtub again by DrYak · · Score: 1

    If your excuse is that fat fucks magically get double energy from the regular calories regular people eat,

    No, I'm arguing that the amount of fat you store is only a small amount compared to all the calories in the food.
    There's a lot of these calories which will end up elsewhere (which includes, spending more energy (re)building/repairing the body, or even simply wasted).

    Some people have slightly broken metabolism which might lead to slightly more fat storage that others.
    Blaming these people be calling them "fat fucks" won't help.
    The proper way would be to get adapted professional advice, from real specialists (instead of listening to internet trolls).

    and I don't try to put 22 gallons in my Ducati. Not all at once anyway.

    But your motorbike will mostly spend the gaz on propulsion, whereas you car can have a significantly drop in mileage if the alternator is solicited more by, e.g., a running A/C.
    Changing the input (gaz poured in) and the output (pushing the gaz pedal) won't affect both vehicle the same.
    Body biochemistry is complicated. Again, seek advice of a real professional.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]