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Intel 'Petitioned Microsoft Heavily' Not To Choose ARM For Surface Go, Report Says (theverge.com)

Posted by msmash on from the intel-on-Intel's-push dept.

Microsoft launched its new Surface Go device earlier this month with an Intel Pentium Gold processor inside. It's been one of the main focus points for discussions around performance and mobility for this 10-inch Surface, and lots of people have wondered why Microsoft didn't opt for Qualcomm's Snapdragon processors and Windows on ARM. The Verge: Paul Thurrott reports that Microsoft wanted to use an ARM processor for the Surface Go, but that Intel intervened. Intel reportedly "petitioned Microsoft heavily" to use its Pentium Gold processors instead of ARM ones. It's not clear why Microsoft didn't push ahead with its ARM plans for Surface Go, but in my own experience the latest Snapdragon chips simply don't have the performance and compatibility to match Intel on laptops just yet.

32 of 81 comments (clear)

  1. Im sure a few vendors pushed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Im sure AMD was in the mix too, in the end Micorsoft picked what they felt is the best for a product that missed the boat.

    1. Re: Im sure a few vendors pushed by fubarrr · · Score: 1

      4415Y is not an off the shelf chip.

      That kaby lake pentium gold is a garbage chip that is outperformed by atom bases pentium silver.

      The story behind its creation is Intel purpose manufacturing it for Microsoft for almost free to prevent them switching to ARM

  2. Appearances matter more to them than facts. by Narcocide · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They don't care whether the ARM chips would have been better or not. Letting Microsoft choose ARM chips would be an admission of defeat. It's more important to Intel that Microsoft keep up appearances by choosing an Intel-designed chip than it is for the chip to actually be a good choice.

    1. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      they would not have been better and it does matter. ARM is low performance chip in the here and now

    2. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Throw enough cores and enough high-performance storage in there and enough RAM to avoid task swapping and it doesn't matter for most tasks. Unfortunately everyone seems to skimp on the storage device, and almost everyone skimps on the RAM.

      --
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    3. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Actually TFA should be called "MSFT punks Intel, gets sweetheart deal on chips" because we have already seen NOBODY wants Windows on ARM (because if you can't run you X86 Windows programs why run Windows?) so I seriously doubt MSFT had any real intent on going down that road of fail again, they just wanted a better deal on the CPUs.

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    4. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      I had one of the older low cost surfaces when ATOM was still supported. My coworker laughed and made fun of me. However, his screen was so dark you couldn't read it on his to conserve power and by 3pm his battery was dead. Mine stayed up and still had 50% life at 5pm.

      ARM has similiar power advantages if all you do is type things in Office, browse the web, and watch Netflix. I miss ATOM as I am sure this Pentium gold sucks and uses more power.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    5. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Throw enough clock speed and cores at it, and even Windows seems not so slow.

    6. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      My use case was to check email, browse the web, and do wireshark port scans with a USB ethernet dongle and putting them in excel to export.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    7. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      But if it couldn't run Windows X86 programs...would you have bought it over the cheaper and often more feature rich Android tablets? probably not and that is the point the entire selling point of Windows is its huge backwards compatible library of X86 software.

      I mean what would be the point of Windows On Arm? Buy Windows so you can use their crappy Appstore that doesn't have shit compared to Android? that is what killed WinPhone and Windows On Arm the first time and MSFT knows this which is why I seriously doubt MSFT was serious about going Arm.

      BTW the Pentium Gold only uses a max 6w on the low end model so really not bad for a tablet that can run Windows programs, i se this being adopted by a lot of SOHO and SMBs simply because they can hand their workers low cost units that run all the software they have already been trained on. I know all the local docs are adopting Surface as all their insurance and diagnostic software already runs on Windows so its an easy switch, with low costs units I can see this becoming THE hot small business product for the next few years.

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      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    8. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      *hat tip*
      Ain't seen you around here in a while. Almost got worried

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    9. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Wireshark is abnormal. Most users do not need to run that and need Office to do stuff in which the Android and IOS versions suck and are more just readers with a few basic functions.

      If it is down to 6w which is close to the Atom then I am relieved as it fits my use case perfectly. I have my own i7 4770K OCed to 4.4 ghz to run Visual Studio and Virtual Machines at home :-).

      But most things like Workday, ADP, SAP, Concur, and other corporate apps that relied on shitty ancient Java and IE are going wayside for modern HTML 5 versions that run on a browser or have beta Android and IOS versions of their apps too. In that case the device would matter less and security would go up for the business customers.

      ARM at this time if you just use Office and Netflix has better power and performance. It's frustrating but I see legacy apps being outplaced or moved to a VDI like Citrix which now has an IOS version to run IE 6 apps. VLC is the only good app I know in the WindowsStore right now besides Netflix and Hulu. I expect that to change if we see more ARM marketshare and Windows 7 finally die off (ha some still use XP).

      I guess the use case is MUST have Office and be cheap and portable with lots of power.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    10. Re:Appearances matter more to them than facts. by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      6w for a third gen I3 performance in a budget tablet? I'd say that is pretty good but like I said if it wasn't for Windows X86 programs everyone would just buy the Android as its cheaper, more features, and more apps.

      That is why I think it'll be a hit if they can hit the right price point (sub $250 and the lower the better, not like MSFT needs to make money off the OS) because there is just so damned many Windows X86 programs that haven't been ported and would probably be insanely expensive to replace. But if MSFT can hit the right price point and it does handle like an I3? I can see SOHOs and SMBs gobbling these up simply because they won't have to replace all that specialized third party software from inventory to bookkeeping to God knows what else.

      And I agree while its good that all that shitty "IE based" crap is dying out you'd be fricking amazed how much Windows only software is still out there that the corp that made it either has no interest in porting or hell, maybe they simply no longer support the software anymore and companies are still depending on it. I've had to massage the living hell out of VMs to get decade plus old software to run on modern Windows because the corp no longer supported it and a company required it to interface with their $200K printer/plotter rig, there is a shitload of companies that have serious money tied up in Windows software/hardware that simply has to Android/iOS equivalent. Nice thing about Windows is 9 times out of 10 there IS a way to get the old stuff to run on newer versions, I've tried a few windows emulators and the experience? Yeah wasn't very nice, not nice at all. Felt like running Win98 on a 286, just painful.

      But ironically that is EXACTLY why MSFT cannot get shit for traction in phones and ARM, its the same "chicken or egg" issue Linux had trying to gain traction in the 00s. Nobody buys Windows because they having a raging hard on for MSFT, they buy it to run their programs and if those programs are X86 only and you hand them something like WinRT? Let me put it THIS way...I had folks trying to sell me WinRT tablets dirt cheap for a good year after the local Walmart started selling them and they were all like new but every time when I asked why they didn't want it the answer was the same "my programs won't work". I passed on them and the local shop down the street bought them for a song...and took a bath on them because you couldn't give 'em away, nobody wanted a windows tablet that couldn't run "Windows" programs.

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  3. There is still no proper Windows ARM Ecosystem by IYagami · · Score: 4, Informative

    Currently there are several problems with Windows 10 for ARM:
    a) ARM processors (Snapdragon 835) have the same performance as an Atom chip ( https://www.techspot.com/revie... )
    b) There are very few Windows 10 ARM apps
    c) Windows 10 ARM does not run Windows 10 x86-64 applications
    d) ARM processor does not run emulate Windows 10 x86-32 applications very quickly ( https://www.techspot.com/revie... )

    a) / b) / d) can be solved with future ARM processors, c) can be solved in future Windows 10 versions

    But I think the main problem is the price: you can have a Windows 10 ARM tablet (HP Envy X2 - https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp... )... for 900 USD. Sorry,but I think it needs to be half the price (at least!)

    1. Re:There is still no proper Windows ARM Ecosystem by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      ) ARM processors (Snapdragon 835) have the same performance as an Atom chip

      What're the minimum and average selling prices of iAtom-containing devices vs 'flagship Snapdragon' (835-containing) devices?

      Just wondering.

    2. Re: There is still no proper Windows ARM Ecosystem by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Apple can scuttle their binaey compatility yet again.

      We'll see if they do. There are not workstation worthy ARM chips to compete with thr iSeries parts, but Apple has nearly abandoned that market segment. If they didn't need Xcode on the Mac as their iGadget development platform, they might let the thing wither away.

    3. Re:There is still no proper Windows ARM Ecosystem by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      If you need a freaking ecosystem then you are a corporate user. The more expensive traditional Surface Pros with their power hungry x86 would be more appropriately.

      These Surface Go's are for those who just need office and use web apps. Like the ATOM before it they have superior power management within 12 hour ranges if MS were to pick them. For kids, students, and those who want to type things and watch movies in Netflix from the appstore they are a good compromise.

      Also 2012 was 6 years ago when WindowsRT and the first surface came out and much has changed. People do not rely on ancient software as much in the consumer space and HTML 5 and web apps mean many do not buy software in a box with cds anymore. Witness today how many new laptops have cdroms in them? 10 years ago any unit without a cdrom drive would flop.

      Intel shouldn't have cancelled the ATOM but if you ABSOLUTELY NEED Ms Office then a surface on ARM may make sense if you don't need anything else. Much of the ancient corporate crud is going to Citrix or HTML 5 if the companies are still around and no longer relying on ancient Java, IE, activeX, or x86 software installs.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    4. Re:There is still no proper Windows ARM Ecosystem by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      You mean my EPYC 64 core server doesn't make gmail load faster?

  4. Windows 8 RT redux by sanf780 · · Score: 1

    I understand there is this recent Qualcomm chip, Snapdragon 835 and the future 1000, that can do X86 emulation at a reasonable speed, something that Windows 8 RT lacked. I am not sure if software targeting amd64 do work these days on these ARM CPUs. If there is no software to run, there is no need for such a CPU.

    1. Re:Windows 8 RT redux by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      In the end, the code of Windows 10--being highly x86-centric--would work better with the Pentium Go CPU, since it would need minimal code changes to run Windows 10 on the Pentium Go CPU.

  5. What's the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RISC-V/GNU-Linux
    RISC-V/*BSD

    1. Re: What's the future? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      So you're saying 2018 (2019??) will be the year of the Linux-RISC-V desktop?

    2. Re:What's the future? by execthts · · Score: 1

      GNU\NT

  6. Holy Crap! by GerryGilmore · · Score: 1

    You mean to say that Intel actually fought for a design win and won?!? Stop the presses!!
    Of course, as TFA notes squarely: "...in my own experience the latest Snapdragon chips simply don’t have the performance and compatibility to match Intel on laptops just yet. " And they still picked Intel - what a world.

    1. Re:Holy Crap! by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Apple's cortex is about as fast an an i5. They are catching up and SnapDragon is not the only ARM design out there.

      I used to think WindowsRT was a joke a few years ago but I have been witnessing a change in corporate IT after the last recession finally unfroze IT just 2 to 3 years ago. That is much corporate shitware requiring legacy stuff is being updated to be cloud and web based. Those that are not are being hosted in Citrix sessions.

      If Office, Netflix, Hulu, MS teams and the silly opensource version of Teams (forgot the name) are also there in the appstore then an Arm is fine. Chromebooks sell for niche uses and the surface go would be a niche use for someone like a college student who has to have MS Office and consume media and nothing else.

      Things were different 6 years ago and the newer laptops today do not have cdrom drives anymore either if you notice which shows consumers are not installing x86 software anymore these days rather than going to a website or downloading something.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
  7. In other words... by kenh · · Score: 1

    Intel successfully pitched their processor against an under-powered and unsuitable alternative? That's amazing! Perhaps Microsoft deigned interest in an WEB-based design to Win a better deal from Intel?

    This entire article boils down to this: Microsoft chose an Intel processor for their product over an ARM-based alternative - discuss.

    --
    Ken
  8. It kinda makes sense by stikves · · Score: 1

    (Note: I have a few INTC stock, so I might be biased).

    Intel is generally terrible at scaling down. I had an ASUS tablet with an Atom processor, and it was not up par with ARM competitors. ARM can just sip tiny bits of power can go for all day, while Atom was not as efficient. (That is why they exited the mobile market, and currently only have Atom chips for server platforms).

    That being said, if your goal is running x86 applications it is still better to go with the native processor. Until Windows can have really "universal" applications, Intel will still be a better choice for their platform compared to emulation.

  9. Re:Its attractive but no guts by DaHat · · Score: 1

    It's too small to fig guts into.

    I liked the Surface RT, I loved my Surface Pro 3... but the Surface Go is just too small for my adult hands, granted it does offer some usefulness to kids where the parents don't want to buy iPads.

    --
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  10. Doesn't matter to Microsoft by Solandri · · Score: 1

    The whole point of Windows for ARM is that Microsoft gets a finger in both pies. When their software was x86-only, ARM presented a threat. But unlike Intel, Microsoft isn't beholden to x86. So they made Windows RT (now Windows for ARM).

    Now that they have a horse in both races, it doesn't matter to them who wins. If Intel wins, they just continue as they are. If ARM wins, they're ready to shift their entire software base over to ARM. Windows for ARM could never sells more than a handful of copies, and it will have still done its job. It's Microsoft's hedge bet, protecting it against the "obvious" outcome (Intel dominance continuing) turning out to be wrong.

  11. Re:It might also be by webmistressrachel · · Score: 1

    What did they do, threaten to bork all future Windows releases? Surely Intel needs M$ more than M$ needs Intel?

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  12. What's the point of Windows on ARM anyway? by DrXym · · Score: 1

    The software people want to run is written for x86. An ARM based device would be DOA. That said, I'm sure Microsoft will still find a way to gimp the device rendering it more or less useless - locking it to their app store for example.

  13. Big deal by rainer_d · · Score: 1

    The only ARM-class CPU that might actually outperform a halfway decent Intel CPU is Apple A11 - and they ain't licensing (well, or nobody has offered enough money).

    So, it's not a completely dumb move IMO.

    --
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