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Uber Wins Key Ruling In Its Fight Against Treating Drivers As Employees (arstechnica.com)
A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that drivers "seeking to be classified as employees rather than independent contractors must arbitrate their claims individually, and not pursue class-action lawsuits," reports Reuters. Ars Technica explains the significance of this ruling: Employees are guaranteed to earn federal minimum wage and are entitled to overtime pay if they work more than 40 hours per week. Uber employees, in contrast, are paid by the ride and might earn much less than minimum wage if they drive at a slow time of day. California law also gives employees the right to be reimbursed for expenses they incur on the job, which would be significant for Uber drivers who otherwise are responsible for gas, maintenance, insurance, and other expenses of operating an Uber vehicle.
Hence, the question of whether Uber drivers are employees or independent contractors is a big and important one. It's also a question that isn't addressed at all in Tuesday's ruling, as the courts never get to the substance of the plaintiffs' arguments about employment law. Instead, a three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit court ruled that the drivers signed away their rights to sue in court when they signed up to be Uber drivers. Uber's agreement with drivers requires that this kind of dispute be handled by private arbitration rather than by a lawsuit in the public courts. The court cited a Supreme Court ruling handed down in May that held that federal labor law did not preempt arbitration agreements. [...] the decision means that each driver's case must be fought on an individual, case-by-case basis. Class-action lawsuits in the federal courts allow plaintiffs to effectively pool their resources. [...] But under arbitration, each driver's case will be considered individually. Most won't have the resources to afford top-tier legal representation, and drivers won't have the inherent leverage that comes from being able to bargain as a group.
Hence, the question of whether Uber drivers are employees or independent contractors is a big and important one. It's also a question that isn't addressed at all in Tuesday's ruling, as the courts never get to the substance of the plaintiffs' arguments about employment law. Instead, a three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit court ruled that the drivers signed away their rights to sue in court when they signed up to be Uber drivers. Uber's agreement with drivers requires that this kind of dispute be handled by private arbitration rather than by a lawsuit in the public courts. The court cited a Supreme Court ruling handed down in May that held that federal labor law did not preempt arbitration agreements. [...] the decision means that each driver's case must be fought on an individual, case-by-case basis. Class-action lawsuits in the federal courts allow plaintiffs to effectively pool their resources. [...] But under arbitration, each driver's case will be considered individually. Most won't have the resources to afford top-tier legal representation, and drivers won't have the inherent leverage that comes from being able to bargain as a group.
Make them get themselves off the roads with their own financial stupidity.
Once again the yanks will lube up and bend over for corporations.
So, Uber is off the hook simply because they have endless financial resources. Way to go, American legal system. I hope dearly that the EU regulates Silicon Valley so far into the ground that they will have no option but to relent here as well.
Always know what you are agreeing to before signing on the dotted line.
It's the Republican way.
Fuck it, unionize.
Local 420 uber/lyft-driver's union.
make them subject to the laws/fee's that normal cabbies have to abide by,
And ya know wut, make'em pay for rights for the air-ports too. they wanna play like the big boys, make'em pay like tha big boys
BAM! you have now revolutionized the "CAB" industry while removing the single most parasitic element of the business..
maintaining the vehicles..
Whey to go, fucking wonderful..
so any job can now use arbitration get out of
minimum wage
workers comp
sexual harassment
overtime
etc.
Wrong. Uber isn't a software company except as a facilitator for their core business, transportation of clients. That they deliberately try to make their employees doing that job "look" like contractors via software doesn't make it so.
This will not fly forever.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-independent-contract-20180430-story.html
https://www.arnoldporter.com/en/perspectives/publications/2018/05/employee-or-independent-contractor-california
https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/california-announces-new-wage-and-hour-independent-contractor-test
https://www.lawandtheworkplace.com/2018/05/california-changes-rules-on-independent-contractors/
and if the IRS rules them as Employees then will they fall into the black hole of having both the down sides with none of the upsides?
The court cited a Supreme Court ruling handed down in May that held that federal labor law did not preempt arbitration agreements.
And with EVERY goddamn business these days demanding those fucking things, we are at the mercy of arbitration panels STACKED with industry insiders.
Yeah sure, some member is going to rule in favor of the consumer/worker and against a future employer?
We are truly fucked people. We are all sheep to be slaughtered - unless you're a member of the 0.01%.
Think you're one day going to be one of them with your startup idea? You have a better chance being a pop star or winning the mega millions lottery.
I'm beginning to see why people become revolutionaries - even if their leader is a dick like Castro. You have nothing to lose - your life sucks now - and the dick will screw over the current big shots and you're just where you started. Well, the dick does throw the peons a bone; unlike corporate America and our current system. But the previous assholes get theirs.
(1) Their "real" income after expenses puts them below minimum wage ($9.20 an hour). I felt sorry for them. They could work at a restaurant or store and earn better income.
(2) I say "used to" because one of those drivers I gave a generous tip, then proceeded to charge me for HIS drive from Santa Ana to Pasadena. I figured it was a mistake. BUT THEN Uber told me, "The driver says he took your girlfriend home, so that was the cause for the extra charge. No refund."
Problem: No girlfriend. I lost $120, and immediately erased Uber's app since that's not the kind of company I want to do business with.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If only there were some sort of, say, club, that employees could join, where they come up with a common strategy to fight employer abuses.
Finding God in a Dog
A union in the gig economy. What a great idea!
[/sarcasm]
My experience with unions is that they're useless unless you're in a reasonably well paid profession. Steelworkers and coal miners? Sure. If you get paid somewhere less than twice minimum wage? You're fucking hosed unless it's an outright offense that can land your employer in jail.
I have had no problem going all over Massachusetts with Uber. If drivers mind it so much, they're sure not showing it.
Lets sort one thing out. Sexual harassment is not included in any job... or shouldn't be. That has nothing to do if a person is an employee or a contractor.
Ever done any contract work? 1099 work? You get what you're paid. It's one reason why people see bigger dollars, but they have to pay all the taxes normally taken out of a employees paycheck.
Also, contract work is done by the job, not the hour. So plan accordingly. Thus a contract. Do stuff, get paid on agreed price.
For example, real estate agents are not employees of the company they work with. They don't get a minimum wage, workers comp, overtime, and yes etc. They get what contracts they fulfill and nothing more. It can seem scary to some and liberating to others. Work more, get paid more.
Certain rights should not be something you can sign away to some asshole company ... especially the right to sue.
What a shitty legal tactic, make people sign away rights in a court so that when the assholes who run the company get sued they can sidestep the whole issue.
The sooner Uber dies the better ... the sooner the fools driving for them realize they're getting screwed and move on, the better off they'll be.
Fuck Uber, the entire company is a complete fucking fiction of claiming laws don't apply to them.
If anybody is in a position to dump a bucket of flaming shit on their management, please do the world a favor ... just make sure the news cameras catch it.
OMG..
Dauth my eyes deceive me,
is poor euric Dead?
Did an anonymous post get modded up
Wholly shit PA, whats this werld cumming too?
Darnit, they Dun Killed Ol'yeller..
But they did, they do background checks and training of people, the business IS transportation so there's vehicle requirements for insurance, etc. They're NOT a software company! If they never touched that stuff, maybe.
Was it an UBER cock,
or just your standard run-of-the-mill congressmen cock, flacid, and weak?
or, was someone sucking uber's UBER cock?
With all this talk of sucking/cock, and other various things, I'm suprised to not hear over the loud-speaker, "msmash cleanup on isle 69."
oh, the irony
Such clauses should be illegal. People should have the right to sue when the want. Poor and under-employed people, especially, don't have the negotiating power to pick and choose which clauses they like in such contracts. It's not a deli: it's get a paycheck or don't get a paycheck. This lopsidedness is sometimes called "Inequality of bargaining power".
Some argue it would flood the courts, but the courts can be streamlined to have an arbitration-like stage for smaller claims where the arbiter tries to work out a mutual agreement without anybody having to visit a courtroom. If either party doesn't agree, then it goes up to the formal court. The arbiter wouldn't be selected by nor hired by the corporation.
Table-ized A.I.
Strippers? The point is that if arbitration can be invoked prior to investigating federal law, then arbitration can supersede federal law. That would include things like sexual harassment.
That explains why Uber drivers are paid so well. Obviously a company would never force contracts on all its work force precisely to avoid having to pay taxes and shove as many expenses off their own books. Nor would they contract out work to a third party to do the same.
Yes, obviously all workers should negotiate on a per job basis and plan far ahead. I mean, we don't need any laws to avoid the sort of situation where an employer tells near minimum wage workers to either accept their new sub-minimum wage contract or get another job at one of the other places pushing the same sort of contract. Real full-time employment and demand is so high, employers couldn't possible push the "work or starve"* line because there's just tons of other, honest employers out there to switch to and let such companies die.
Work 72 hours a week and you may even make net minimum wage.
* Most States will drop you from food stamps or other support programs if they become aware you refuse a legal job offer of sufficient weekly wage. In a situation like this, that'd mean simply guaranteeing that it's hypothetically possible to work enough hours to make that wage, regardless of if it's realistically possible. Clear you (and I imagine the judge) is using the same logic. That's obviously utterly bullshit. If you can't realistically make effectively gross minimum wage (or the cut-off for assistance), then it should not be considered legal.
Individual unions are free to make their own rules and hold elections. A few shitty corrupt unions are constantly used as examples of why unions are bad. That is about as reasonable as saying you worked for a shitty corrupt company once so all companies are bad.
Exactly, Lyft could capitalize by unionizing, making theirs the in-between of full-on Taxis and Uber rapists. Pay it back to the drivers, disrupt the disruptive Uberwhore model! Eat their lunch.
Allowing unequal justice will be useful for preserving systemic discrimination. Win-win! #MAGA
The courts here didn't decide anything of the above in this case, instead they ruled that the Uber "employees" signed away their rights when they applied for the jobs.
So the lesson here is do not sign away your rights when you take a job. Especially don't sell your soul for a low paying job.
Basically the courts have decided that those stupid agreements you sign when taking a job are valid, which is still highy pro-corporate.
All those currently corrupt unions started life doing a lot of real good for the workers when they were new.
However in the meantime the US has become extremely anti-union, and many of the traditionally pro-union voters have switched over the the Republican side (after all it's not like we have more than two parties to choose from). So unions today have no teeth.
This wave of arbitration clauses has to be throttled. It weakens those who are already at disadvantage itâ(TM)s an abuse and I would trust it for justice. Itâ(TM)s also inescapable for many services.
Potentially they could, but then as a contractor they could have job freedoms, such as making their own schedule, to which most employers would balk at any price.
If you start harassing one of the strippers then Brune will take you out back and have a good long talk until you understand the rules.
This is how it all begins....
Quite a lot of contract jobs are paid by the hour though, especially when the job to do is not clear cut with an ending condition. They will essentially do identical jobs to full employees, fixing bugs, adding features, writing docs, etc. They are hired because they can get around hiring freezes or because you couldn't find anyone else suitable to fill the job reqs.
Many employees work their own schedules.
Nah, just Commifornia companies which act across state lines thanks to the wonder of technology and bring money into the parasitic state known as Commifornia.
The supreme court ruling refenced by the article says that the NLRA doesnâ(TM)t apply when thereâ(TM)s no union. If the Uber drivers form a union, then the union can arbitrate on their behalf. Too many anti-union drivers for that to happen. They want union protections but donâ(TM)t want the union.
One can't sign away one's right not to be killed. Unless one's contracting with the military... Oops... I'll come in again...
About social security numbers, agreeing to background checks, and a whole host of things that were considered 'communist'.
Nowadays the same people calling you a commie for thinking our freemarket capitalism is sliding back towards feudalism are also pro-surveillance, checkpoints, etc while claiming they are all SO AMERICAN, and not at all like our schoolteachers used to tell us those filthy Russians were doing 25-30+ years ago.
if you don't like it you're gonna have to vote pro-consumer, anti-corporate people in like Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. Start here. It's a non-corporate PAC that makes refusing corporate PAC money a condition of membership. I'm not sure if there's a Republican or Libertarian equivalent, but if anyone's got one I'm all ears.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Vote for pro-worker, pro-consumer, anti-corporate candidates. I said this elsewhere in this thread, but folks like Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and the entire lot of the Justice Democrats. Look for candidates who refuse corporate PAC money. And remind your friends and family to do the same. That'll do more to help Uber drivers than the occasional $10 tip.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
If only those clubs hadn't discredited themselves by being corrupt and an arm of the Democrats, they might have some clout. But when Democrats passed NAFTA, that was the death knell of the American working class. Who cares, really...fuck the deplorables, remember?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Uber drivers - provide all their own tools (the car), work when they want for as long as they want, choose the rides they pick up, they can choose how they perform the job (they have some choice in the route to take). They can even work for competitors at the same time. Contractor vs Employee is about the workers level of control. If you show up at an office at a specific time, work using a company computer, do the tasks they assign and can't work for a competitor then you are definitely an employee. Uber drivers are further from being an employee than any of the governments "contractors".
stop working for them.
It's a common tax question of when is someone an employee and when are they a contractor. This is well settled. THere are puiblished guideline. You could look them up since you don't know them.
But a rule of thumb is a contractor provides the tools of their trade, and gets paid by the task not the hour or the mile.
For example a house cleaner is Usually not a maid. A maid uses the vaccuum provided by the household, the house cleaner brings one.
Other signs are things like paying your own Social security and Benefits. However, these only work in one direction. If the House is paying these then its a sign you are an employee. If the person is paying them, then this doesn't prove they are not an employee.
THe case for uber is interesting since they often do provide their own cars.
Really what they need is a union.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Inequality is if you have first invested something and the employer has a monopoly. So sports players have a union because the players have devoted a lot of time specializing in one job and there is often only one league they can work for. Teachers have unions, you have to train to be a teacher and there is often only a limited number of employers in your area. A mine in a remote location should have a union, since it takes an investment to move to the area the mine is in. Sometimes you need a union to negotiate for worker safety because the cost of changing jobs a slight inequality. (Note: every union I've belong to actually manage to make places less safe).
There is no inequality in bargaining power with uber. There are no sunk costs associated with choosing to work for them. You can walk away at any moment and be in the same position you were in before you started working for them.
Thanks to the corrupting influence of money on our politics, it's comforting to know that government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations, like Uber, and their sick, rich, greedy owners, (or their "elected" puppets,) shall not perish from the earth.
Actually, I am being sarcastic. It is a dreadful shame that the government of, by, and for the people, seemingly has perished from the earth, to be replaced by the aforementioned corrupt government, that works against, to the detriment of, and to spite the people.
They nip at our rights, won by the blood, sweat, and tears of our forebears, and all we can do is watch helplessly as the people who can be bothered to vote, mostly do so for either the Democratic monster, or the Republican monster, both puppets of the same people, and then those people, who are proximally responsible for the unending nightmare we're all living through, have the sheer unmitigated gall to wag their fingers at US for voting for someone who isn't the puddle of fetid vomit retched up onto the ballot by either the "Democratic" (as if they've any right to call themselves that,) or "Republican" halves of the one party that actually controls America, and tell us that the person we voted for "spoiled" something.
As yet another general political election creeps up on us in America, I'd like to remind anyone interested in my vote that if you derive any support of any kind whatsoever from anyone other than the common voters you propose to represent, i.e., if you take PAC money, big corporate money, if you are supported either directly or indirectly by a group that is making in-kind donations, etc... you are NOT eligible for my vote. EVER. If everyone held to a conviction like this, we wouldn't have the corruption and uselessness we now see in our so-called "government". But since many people are stupid and easily frightened into voting for those who will betray and exploit them, or ignore them, the rest of us, sadly, are screwed.
Anyway, sorry for that aside. I'm sure there's nothing in any way corrupt about a multibillion-dollar corporation that has been feeding parasitically off its employees, oh... please forgive me, I mean "independent contractors"... hahahahah yeah, okay, managing to litigate their way into having a court of "law" (hahahahahha) issue a "ruling" (bwaahahahaha) requiring their "contractors" to undertake to arbitrate INDIVIDUALLY any dispute they may have, virtually guaranteeing that Uber will never have to worry about uppity slaves... er, sorry, I mean "contractors," demanding anything again.
Nothing to see here. Move along. Just a multibillion dollar parasitic business fucking everyone they can get their paws on as usual.
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
They do identical work under identical conditions. This makes as much sense as demanding a unique class definition for each instance in Java. But I've stopped expecting the world to be rational. Imagining it to be filled with Golgafrinchams makes everything make much more sense.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Yeah, vote Republican because they support corporations as people rights. And no corporation ever screwed over the little guy, ever. Right?
I mean that was your criteria for saying all unions and Democrats are bad after all. You wouldn't want to be an inconsistent, hypocritical liar, would you?
Get a job, lose your rights. Gotta luv the US supreme court for repeatedly deciding that rights can be extinguished as a matter of commerce. This is why government shouldn't ask 'the market' to provide long-term services like pensions, healthcare and occupational safety.
How about the Teamsters
- might earn much less than minimum wage if they drive at a slow time of day.
When I see demands for the drivers to at least make minimum wage, I've wondered... does this mean while they are driving? Or as long as they are signed in to the app? Would they still get paid by the hour if they refuse nearby ride requests? Or would the hour pay stop the instant they refuse/ignore a nearby request? I don't mean this to be in opposition to the cases or drivers, it's just something I've legitimately wondered every time it came up.
So the lesson here is do not sign away your rights when you take a job. Especially don't sell your soul for a low paying job.
Well a little application of brainpower might reveal that the most likely people to sign away their rights are those taking low-paying jobs.
"It is a dreadful shame that the government of, by, and for the people, seemingly has perished from the earth"
Oh but it hasnt, and i think the main part of the confusion is that everyone thinks that the term "people" in your statement means all people who are citizens. Unfortunatly, that has never been the case and you can go as far back as you like in American history and see that "the people" has always been about a selected protected class of people and every time that laws were enacted to include more citizens into "the people" there were laws written to exclude them just as fast. America has always been split into a ruling class and serfs, there is only the illusion of otherwise because it helps grease the wheels and help maintain the economy by providing the hope to everyone in the serf class that some day they will be in the ruling class.
This two class system is most evident in the courts of law where the ruling class can easily afford the legal aid that will most likely assure their win, while the serfs do not get such a privilege and often leverage their life savings for a slightly better chance of winning in court. This is what has happened here, its a never ending uphill battle but its better than giving up and voluntarily putting collars around our necks.
For anyone claiming that Europe is any better, you are even more delusional! Humanity has not yet fully grasped the idea that every human being should be given a basic level of respect as illustrated by our attempts at setting a minimum of human rights. We try to enact basic human rights but there are countries (first world to third world) who continually try to get around them or claim that those rules do not apply to specific people because of x,y and z. Until we are able to maintain a basic level of rights for each and every human being that exists then we will always have a ruling class and a serf class.
The courts here didn't decide anything of the above in this case, instead they ruled that the Uber "employees" signed away their rights when they applied for the jobs.
No, not quite. What they signed was a contract contingent on (among other things) accepting arbitration for disputes rather than going to court. So, here's the important part, THEY CAN STILL SUE, but it will immediately terminate their contract with Uber. If there was a serious personal issue, like sexual harassment, I would hope they skip a mere lawsuit and press criminal charges. Similarly for actual violations of US labor laws.
This case is just a failed attempt to bully an irreputable company into changing terms of a contract without the risks associated with renegotiating.
Uber drivers have
no price control
can't market sales for other stuff
can get blacklisted for marketing non uber rides to people
can't do an taxicab confessions show with an rider
etc.
well some drivers don't like some trips that cost them more then they make. Also what about an long trip??? where the have a lot of time just coming back?
Waiting at the airport?
Long return to the airport?
Return trip after last ride of the day?
corrupt and an arm of the Democrats
You are repeating yourself... Horse and carriage, babe. And remember the roots of the democratic party. That whole 'civil rights' thing during the Kennedy/Johnson years was just a phase. They shed that crap with Humphrey.
I don't think those things have anything to do with being a contractor or not.
P.S. Do they actually forbid you from doing TV game shows while on the clock for Uber? Totally reasonably, but hilarious.
What I'm questioning is more of, what if the driver just sits in a parking lot and declines rides for 1-2 hours. Are they saying he should get 2 hours pay for that? Or would the "clock stop" at him declining 1-2 in a row? I'm legitimately curious what the fix they want is and how exactly it would work.