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Uber Wins Key Ruling In Its Fight Against Treating Drivers As Employees (arstechnica.com)
A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that drivers "seeking to be classified as employees rather than independent contractors must arbitrate their claims individually, and not pursue class-action lawsuits," reports Reuters. Ars Technica explains the significance of this ruling: Employees are guaranteed to earn federal minimum wage and are entitled to overtime pay if they work more than 40 hours per week. Uber employees, in contrast, are paid by the ride and might earn much less than minimum wage if they drive at a slow time of day. California law also gives employees the right to be reimbursed for expenses they incur on the job, which would be significant for Uber drivers who otherwise are responsible for gas, maintenance, insurance, and other expenses of operating an Uber vehicle.
Hence, the question of whether Uber drivers are employees or independent contractors is a big and important one. It's also a question that isn't addressed at all in Tuesday's ruling, as the courts never get to the substance of the plaintiffs' arguments about employment law. Instead, a three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit court ruled that the drivers signed away their rights to sue in court when they signed up to be Uber drivers. Uber's agreement with drivers requires that this kind of dispute be handled by private arbitration rather than by a lawsuit in the public courts. The court cited a Supreme Court ruling handed down in May that held that federal labor law did not preempt arbitration agreements. [...] the decision means that each driver's case must be fought on an individual, case-by-case basis. Class-action lawsuits in the federal courts allow plaintiffs to effectively pool their resources. [...] But under arbitration, each driver's case will be considered individually. Most won't have the resources to afford top-tier legal representation, and drivers won't have the inherent leverage that comes from being able to bargain as a group.
Hence, the question of whether Uber drivers are employees or independent contractors is a big and important one. It's also a question that isn't addressed at all in Tuesday's ruling, as the courts never get to the substance of the plaintiffs' arguments about employment law. Instead, a three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit court ruled that the drivers signed away their rights to sue in court when they signed up to be Uber drivers. Uber's agreement with drivers requires that this kind of dispute be handled by private arbitration rather than by a lawsuit in the public courts. The court cited a Supreme Court ruling handed down in May that held that federal labor law did not preempt arbitration agreements. [...] the decision means that each driver's case must be fought on an individual, case-by-case basis. Class-action lawsuits in the federal courts allow plaintiffs to effectively pool their resources. [...] But under arbitration, each driver's case will be considered individually. Most won't have the resources to afford top-tier legal representation, and drivers won't have the inherent leverage that comes from being able to bargain as a group.
Once again the yanks will lube up and bend over for corporations.
So, Uber is off the hook simply because they have endless financial resources. Way to go, American legal system. I hope dearly that the EU regulates Silicon Valley so far into the ground that they will have no option but to relent here as well.
Fuck it, unionize.
Local 420 uber/lyft-driver's union.
make them subject to the laws/fee's that normal cabbies have to abide by,
And ya know wut, make'em pay for rights for the air-ports too. they wanna play like the big boys, make'em pay like tha big boys
BAM! you have now revolutionized the "CAB" industry while removing the single most parasitic element of the business..
maintaining the vehicles..
Whey to go, fucking wonderful..
Did you miss Hillary's 2016 campaign then? (There's good reasons people are annoyed at both major parties.)
so any job can now use arbitration get out of
minimum wage
workers comp
sexual harassment
overtime
etc.
and if the IRS rules them as Employees then will they fall into the black hole of having both the down sides with none of the upsides?
There's good reasons people are annoyed at both major parties.
Are they? Trumps approval rating with Republican voters is 85%.
(1) Their "real" income after expenses puts them below minimum wage ($9.20 an hour). I felt sorry for them. They could work at a restaurant or store and earn better income.
(2) I say "used to" because one of those drivers I gave a generous tip, then proceeded to charge me for HIS drive from Santa Ana to Pasadena. I figured it was a mistake. BUT THEN Uber told me, "The driver says he took your girlfriend home, so that was the cause for the extra charge. No refund."
Problem: No girlfriend. I lost $120, and immediately erased Uber's app since that's not the kind of company I want to do business with.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If only there were some sort of, say, club, that employees could join, where they come up with a common strategy to fight employer abuses.
Finding God in a Dog
Hillary was caught lying lots of times, like when she claimed she came under fire at an airport. Or when she shared information that she knew was classified, used her own crappy servers, and had her IT guy wipe the hard drives to prevent anyone from finding out. Or when she pretends to support women after going on a crusade against all of the people sexually assaulted/intimidated by her husband. Donald and Hillary are both pieces of human shit.
Lets sort one thing out. Sexual harassment is not included in any job... or shouldn't be. That has nothing to do if a person is an employee or a contractor.
Ever done any contract work? 1099 work? You get what you're paid. It's one reason why people see bigger dollars, but they have to pay all the taxes normally taken out of a employees paycheck.
Also, contract work is done by the job, not the hour. So plan accordingly. Thus a contract. Do stuff, get paid on agreed price.
For example, real estate agents are not employees of the company they work with. They don't get a minimum wage, workers comp, overtime, and yes etc. They get what contracts they fulfill and nothing more. It can seem scary to some and liberating to others. Work more, get paid more.
How many companies allow their employees to also work for their direct competitors at the same time? It isn't exactly uncommon to rideshare drivers to maximize to work for two or more transportation network companies at the same time. Only independent contractors can do something like that, and neither Uber or Lyft can do anything (thus they have no control over the driver) about it unless affects the drivers availability and ratings.
Such clauses should be illegal. People should have the right to sue when the want. Poor and under-employed people, especially, don't have the negotiating power to pick and choose which clauses they like in such contracts. It's not a deli: it's get a paycheck or don't get a paycheck. This lopsidedness is sometimes called "Inequality of bargaining power".
Some argue it would flood the courts, but the courts can be streamlined to have an arbitration-like stage for smaller claims where the arbiter tries to work out a mutual agreement without anybody having to visit a courtroom. If either party doesn't agree, then it goes up to the formal court. The arbiter wouldn't be selected by nor hired by the corporation.
Table-ized A.I.
The courts here didn't decide anything of the above in this case, instead they ruled that the Uber "employees" signed away their rights when they applied for the jobs.
So the lesson here is do not sign away your rights when you take a job. Especially don't sell your soul for a low paying job.
Basically the courts have decided that those stupid agreements you sign when taking a job are valid, which is still highy pro-corporate.
Bam. That probably summarizes the eventual outcome of this case.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
All those currently corrupt unions started life doing a lot of real good for the workers when they were new.
However in the meantime the US has become extremely anti-union, and many of the traditionally pro-union voters have switched over the the Republican side (after all it's not like we have more than two parties to choose from). So unions today have no teeth.
Potentially they could, but then as a contractor they could have job freedoms, such as making their own schedule, to which most employers would balk at any price.
If you start harassing one of the strippers then Brune will take you out back and have a good long talk until you understand the rules.
This is how it all begins....
Quite a lot of contract jobs are paid by the hour though, especially when the job to do is not clear cut with an ending condition. They will essentially do identical jobs to full employees, fixing bugs, adding features, writing docs, etc. They are hired because they can get around hiring freezes or because you couldn't find anyone else suitable to fill the job reqs.
In the 90s the company I was at wanted everyone to sign an arbitration agreement to get more options. I turned it down and the CFO thought I was nuts. The company had a history of suing past employees, so going to arbitration wasn't purely hypothetical. The key problem was the agreement that said after an arbitration that if either party were unhappy with the agreement that they could request new arbitration with the cost born equally by both parties. This meant that whoever had the deepest pockets would win, even if the arbitration board was fair.
These things are amazingly expensive, going to court or to an arbitration board. No way is an individual Uber employee going to do this when they barely make enough money to cover the cost of their autos.
Many employees work their own schedules.
Nah, just Commifornia companies which act across state lines thanks to the wonder of technology and bring money into the parasitic state known as Commifornia.
The vast majority of Americans are not Republicans.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Trump would never have been nominated if the typical Republican wasn't annoyed with Republicans. His relatively approval rating among Republicans is due in large part because Trump tweaked that party's establishment.
Remember 2016 was the "mad as hell" election and still the Democrats ran the most establishment candidate possible. (If you're mad about Trump, blame the Clintons.)
Vote for pro-worker, pro-consumer, anti-corporate candidates. I said this elsewhere in this thread, but folks like Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and the entire lot of the Justice Democrats. Look for candidates who refuse corporate PAC money. And remind your friends and family to do the same. That'll do more to help Uber drivers than the occasional $10 tip.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
If only those clubs hadn't discredited themselves by being corrupt and an arm of the Democrats, they might have some clout. But when Democrats passed NAFTA, that was the death knell of the American working class. Who cares, really...fuck the deplorables, remember?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Uber drivers - provide all their own tools (the car), work when they want for as long as they want, choose the rides they pick up, they can choose how they perform the job (they have some choice in the route to take). They can even work for competitors at the same time. Contractor vs Employee is about the workers level of control. If you show up at an office at a specific time, work using a company computer, do the tasks they assign and can't work for a competitor then you are definitely an employee. Uber drivers are further from being an employee than any of the governments "contractors".
stop working for them.
They signed away their right to a class action lawsuit when they agreed to private arbitration upon entering into an agreement with UbÃr.
Imagine! Federal courts expecting workers to abide by the contracts they sign - those bastards!
Ken
Hillary was not spared prosecution because of a fear of her being treated differently, she was treated differently.
Intent? Do you think she accidentally caused an IT consultant to build a mail server, and she absentmindedly NEVER logged into her government email account? Was she just forgetful when she failed to return all her work-related emails after leaving government service?
Comey enumerated the crimes he had evidence she committed, but then said 'in my opinion no prosecutor would press charges", so he gave her a pass.
She walks the street a free woman today because Comey lacked the huevos to recommend charges against her.
Ken
Odd, 60 million voters pulled the lever for Trump - how many of them were democrats?
Ken
Fortunately for all of us, there are rights that you cannot sign away, even if you sign a contract to that effect. If it were otherwise, we would all be living in a hellscape dystopia.
But alas, the SCOTUS decided that employee arbitration agreements were not one of them, despite federal labor law. Maybe a different law needs to be passed. Maybe Uber drivers need to unionize (yes, I know that is another kind of challenge.) The point is that employers don't have unfettered power to dictate terms to employees. Other elements of society must be able to balance the power of employers. Without that, we're all serfs.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
It's a common tax question of when is someone an employee and when are they a contractor. This is well settled. THere are puiblished guideline. You could look them up since you don't know them.
But a rule of thumb is a contractor provides the tools of their trade, and gets paid by the task not the hour or the mile.
For example a house cleaner is Usually not a maid. A maid uses the vaccuum provided by the household, the house cleaner brings one.
Other signs are things like paying your own Social security and Benefits. However, these only work in one direction. If the House is paying these then its a sign you are an employee. If the person is paying them, then this doesn't prove they are not an employee.
THe case for uber is interesting since they often do provide their own cars.
Really what they need is a union.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Inequality is if you have first invested something and the employer has a monopoly. So sports players have a union because the players have devoted a lot of time specializing in one job and there is often only one league they can work for. Teachers have unions, you have to train to be a teacher and there is often only a limited number of employers in your area. A mine in a remote location should have a union, since it takes an investment to move to the area the mine is in. Sometimes you need a union to negotiate for worker safety because the cost of changing jobs a slight inequality. (Note: every union I've belong to actually manage to make places less safe).
There is no inequality in bargaining power with uber. There are no sunk costs associated with choosing to work for them. You can walk away at any moment and be in the same position you were in before you started working for them.
Thanks to the corrupting influence of money on our politics, it's comforting to know that government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations, like Uber, and their sick, rich, greedy owners, (or their "elected" puppets,) shall not perish from the earth.
Actually, I am being sarcastic. It is a dreadful shame that the government of, by, and for the people, seemingly has perished from the earth, to be replaced by the aforementioned corrupt government, that works against, to the detriment of, and to spite the people.
They nip at our rights, won by the blood, sweat, and tears of our forebears, and all we can do is watch helplessly as the people who can be bothered to vote, mostly do so for either the Democratic monster, or the Republican monster, both puppets of the same people, and then those people, who are proximally responsible for the unending nightmare we're all living through, have the sheer unmitigated gall to wag their fingers at US for voting for someone who isn't the puddle of fetid vomit retched up onto the ballot by either the "Democratic" (as if they've any right to call themselves that,) or "Republican" halves of the one party that actually controls America, and tell us that the person we voted for "spoiled" something.
As yet another general political election creeps up on us in America, I'd like to remind anyone interested in my vote that if you derive any support of any kind whatsoever from anyone other than the common voters you propose to represent, i.e., if you take PAC money, big corporate money, if you are supported either directly or indirectly by a group that is making in-kind donations, etc... you are NOT eligible for my vote. EVER. If everyone held to a conviction like this, we wouldn't have the corruption and uselessness we now see in our so-called "government". But since many people are stupid and easily frightened into voting for those who will betray and exploit them, or ignore them, the rest of us, sadly, are screwed.
Anyway, sorry for that aside. I'm sure there's nothing in any way corrupt about a multibillion-dollar corporation that has been feeding parasitically off its employees, oh... please forgive me, I mean "independent contractors"... hahahahah yeah, okay, managing to litigate their way into having a court of "law" (hahahahahha) issue a "ruling" (bwaahahahaha) requiring their "contractors" to undertake to arbitrate INDIVIDUALLY any dispute they may have, virtually guaranteeing that Uber will never have to worry about uppity slaves... er, sorry, I mean "contractors," demanding anything again.
Nothing to see here. Move along. Just a multibillion dollar parasitic business fucking everyone they can get their paws on as usual.
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
They do identical work under identical conditions. This makes as much sense as demanding a unique class definition for each instance in Java. But I've stopped expecting the world to be rational. Imagining it to be filled with Golgafrinchams makes everything make much more sense.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Remember 2016 was the "mad as hell" election and still the Democrats ran the most establishment candidate possible. (If you're mad about Trump, blame the Clintons.)
No it's not the Deomcrats fault Trump won. I thought the Republicans were the 2party of personal" responsibility anyway...
Trump is and always was corrupt, venal and incredibly self serving. The information was all out there before the election. If you voted for Trump, the fault is entirely yours. Own it.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
- might earn much less than minimum wage if they drive at a slow time of day.
When I see demands for the drivers to at least make minimum wage, I've wondered... does this mean while they are driving? Or as long as they are signed in to the app? Would they still get paid by the hour if they refuse nearby ride requests? Or would the hour pay stop the instant they refuse/ignore a nearby request? I don't mean this to be in opposition to the cases or drivers, it's just something I've legitimately wondered every time it came up.
Hillary was caught lying lots of times ...
Yes, she did. Nowhere near as much as Trump, or as consequentially, or as readily. But the big difference is that many on the left held her responsible for those lies and refused to vote for her. The right refuses to hold Trump to account in any meaningful way.
Uber drivers have
no price control
can't market sales for other stuff
can get blacklisted for marketing non uber rides to people
can't do an taxicab confessions show with an rider
etc.
Imagine! Allowing employment 'contracts' to circumvent federal law and getting the SCOTUS to somehow agree that it was OK.
Next up? A contract that says a lender can murder someone if they don't repay that 100% daily interest loan?
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
well some drivers don't like some trips that cost them more then they make. Also what about an long trip??? where the have a lot of time just coming back?
Waiting at the airport?
Long return to the airport?
Return trip after last ride of the day?
More democrats voted for Hilary than Republicans voted for Trump and it's Hilary's fault that Trmp won.
wat.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I don't think those things have anything to do with being a contractor or not.
P.S. Do they actually forbid you from doing TV game shows while on the clock for Uber? Totally reasonably, but hilarious.
What I'm questioning is more of, what if the driver just sits in a parking lot and declines rides for 1-2 hours. Are they saying he should get 2 hours pay for that? Or would the "clock stop" at him declining 1-2 in a row? I'm legitimately curious what the fix they want is and how exactly it would work.
Hyperbole much?
Everything above is my opinion....YMMV
"Without their "driver partners" (as they like to call them) they are nothing." This is the critical point that both Uber and the drivers don't understand.
First, Uber needs to realize that the drivers are the revenue generator. Without the drivers Uber is nothing. To treat the drivers as a necessary evil is disgusting.
Second, the drivers need to read ALL the fine print and make an informed decision. Chances are many had no real clue what the implications are of the contract they signed. To put all the monetary responsibility for the vehicles on the drivers is like getting free beer for Uber. To not get a full benefits package tells the drivers that Uber doesn't give a damn about them so why work hard for a heartless "partner".
Uber is ripping off every one of their "partners". What a total sham. I refuse to use Uber. I'll gladly keep my money and take the bus. Assholes.
Sig?! Sig?! We don't need no stinking sig!!
"Trump is and always was corrupt, venal and incredibly self serving. The information was all out there before the election. If you voted for Trump, the fault is entirely yours. Own it."
Anyone who voted for Trump expecting anything but the above from him didn't do their homework on him. This is what happens when folks don't pay attention. Voting isn't just about campaign slogans and political speeches. It's about who that person really is. I followed the wiley ways of Donald Trump over the years as a perfect example of how NOT to live as a human being. He was and is a truly awful person.
For the record I didn't want another Clinton, Bush or Trump. I was much more inclined to vote for Sanders. But the Democratic leadership ostracized him which I thought was heinous. What I did decide is Trump was and is a horrible choice to lead the free world. I had to vote for Clinton, even though I did so grudgingly because of many of the points others have already made. My vote for Clinton wasn't so much about voting democrat as it was much more about keeping an asshole out of the White House.
Sig?! Sig?! We don't need no stinking sig!!
Donald Trump is the KING of backstabbing! He does his shit to people then brags about it! That's been his MO for his whole damn life!
Sig?! Sig?! We don't need no stinking sig!!
But of course it is. Not only did they rig their own primary to force the one candidate that could lose to Trump down our throats, Hillary promoted him during the GOP primary via her Pied Piper Strategy.
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/...
But of course he is - but then so was his general election opponent to an equal or greater degree. On all fronts. It's why, despite Trump being the most unpopular president in history, is still more popular than HRC. So don't freak out on the people that voted for the turd sandwich instead of the shit taco.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/...