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How Microsoft Rewrote Its C# Compiler in C# and Made It Open Source (medium.com)
Mads Torgersen, the lead designer of C# at Microsoft, remembers "Project Roslyn," which built an open-source, cross-platform compiler for C# and Visual Basic.NET "in the deepest darkness of last decade's corporate Microsoft:
We would build a language engine! A unified, public API to C# code: We would redefine the meaning of "compiler". Of course, once you are building an API for the broad C# community, it is kind of a slam-dunk that it should be a .NET API, implemented in C#. So, the old dream of "bootstrapping" C# in C# was fulfilled almost as an accidental side benefit. Roslyn was thus born out of an openness mindset: sharing the inner workings of the C# language for the world to programmatically consume.
This in and of itself was a bit of a bold proposition in what was still a pervasively closed culture at Microsoft: We would share this intellectual property for free? We would empower tool builders that weren't us to better compete with us? The arguments that won the day for us here were about strengthening the ecosystem and becoming the best tooled language on the planet. They were about long-term growth of C# and .NET, versus short term monetization and protection of assets for Microsoft. So even without having mentioned open source, signing up for the cost and risk of the Roslyn project was a big and bold step for Microsoft....
F# released already in 2010 with an open source license and its own foundation -- the F# Software Foundation. The vibrant community that grew up around it soon became the envy of us all. Our team pushed strongly to have an open source production license for Roslyn, and finally a company-wide infrastructure emerged to make it real. By 2012, Microsoft had created Microsoft Open Tech; an organization specifically focused on open source projects. Roslyn moved under Microsoft Open Tech and officially became open source... C# language design and compiler implementation are now completely open processes, with lots of non-Microsoft participation, including whole language features being built by external contributors.
Torgersen's article says C# now enjoys "the scaling of effort via contribution of features and bug fixes, but also the insight and course correction we get through the instant, daily feedback loop that open source provides.
"It's been a long and wild journey, and one that to me is symbolic of the massive changes that Microsoft has undergone over the last decade."
This in and of itself was a bit of a bold proposition in what was still a pervasively closed culture at Microsoft: We would share this intellectual property for free? We would empower tool builders that weren't us to better compete with us? The arguments that won the day for us here were about strengthening the ecosystem and becoming the best tooled language on the planet. They were about long-term growth of C# and .NET, versus short term monetization and protection of assets for Microsoft. So even without having mentioned open source, signing up for the cost and risk of the Roslyn project was a big and bold step for Microsoft....
F# released already in 2010 with an open source license and its own foundation -- the F# Software Foundation. The vibrant community that grew up around it soon became the envy of us all. Our team pushed strongly to have an open source production license for Roslyn, and finally a company-wide infrastructure emerged to make it real. By 2012, Microsoft had created Microsoft Open Tech; an organization specifically focused on open source projects. Roslyn moved under Microsoft Open Tech and officially became open source... C# language design and compiler implementation are now completely open processes, with lots of non-Microsoft participation, including whole language features being built by external contributors.
Torgersen's article says C# now enjoys "the scaling of effort via contribution of features and bug fixes, but also the insight and course correction we get through the instant, daily feedback loop that open source provides.
"It's been a long and wild journey, and one that to me is symbolic of the massive changes that Microsoft has undergone over the last decade."
That's really dumb, whilst I agree there are too many languages out there, and people don't always need to make new ones when existing ones exist, we also don't want a monoculture where tech goes down one singular path.
The fact is C# and .NET were already well established, before LLVM even came into existence, and have a massive ecosystem around them with millions of devs and companies using it.
Thus, making it able to work for more people in more places is a good thing, and given it's strong base, like Java, it's a reasonable piece of alternative tech that should stay alternative and not be converged into a great LLVM monolith where progress will never happen because there's no competition anymore. That would be a terrible outcome for everyone, it's what happened when IE "won" the browser wars and we were all stuck with IE6 ruling the browser world for half a decade.
As for your comment on bugs, I'm not sure what your point is. You're basically arguing against open source altogether at that point because you're saying if a community finds and logs bugs it's a terrible thing? How fucking stupid are you? The whole point in open source is precisely so that many eyes can spot problems and collaborate to fix them. There are plenty of major open source projects that are nothing to do with Microsoft in the exact same position. If you criticise an organisation for properly tracking all it's bugs and doing so publicly and for allowing people to contribute more bug reports and also therefore allowing open source devs to also chip in and fix them, then you're basically arguing companies shouldn't open source because you'll shame them for letting other people work on the project.
People like you really need to get over your irrational Microsoft hate and take a leaf out of Torvald's book and go and get some professional help. You're exactly the sort of toxic open source community member he was talking about, because even when you've got literally everything you wanted from a formerly proprietary company - i.e. a complete open sourcing of one of their key products, you STILL bitch and moan at them and imply they shouldn't have done it. You're exactly the sort of person the OSS community doesn't need because you're exactly the sort of no-life vermin that pushes organisations and individuals away from contributing to it.
I thought the mindset of open source was that YOU did things how YOU wanted to do them, and provide the source so that people can fork if they disagree?
That is after all why there are over a thousand text editors for linux.
That is why you have X.org and X386 if I recall correctly.
VIM and emacs.
etc.
My guess is that no matter what Microsoft does, you will complain about it.
That is why you have X.org and X386
The project was named XFree86. You were so very, very close :)
Yaz
If they wanted to actually contribute to the community then they would have made an LLVM frontend
They did. LLVM is not currently a great fit for garbage collected languages, though the LLILC team worked with some of the Azure folks to improve it in this regard. LLVM also suffered from longer compile times (important for a JIT). The Roslyn architecture makes it easy to incrementally replace the JIT, because it supports trying to compile individual functions with a new JIT and falling back to the old one if it doesn't support all of the functionality required. The LLILC team made use of this when trying to bootstrap.
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The answer in the article is that they wanted to and looked for a reason until they found one. The more interesting part is that is shows how deep the Windows development process is within Microsoft. I thought they would have learned their lesson with Vista, but nope. That's what stack ranking gets you, I guess.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
They have submitted code. Infact clang is an option in visual studio community as an option. .net core is available for Linux and so is visual studio code editor. Redhat is ditching Mono and even including Microsoft's Rosslyn and let's not forget WSL for Windows10 nor Android sdk including Android emulators with Visual studio either or the fact that Bill Gates himself owns a Samsung phone.
I am not saying to be a MS fanboy. What I am saying is MS is changing due to the world changing around them. It isn't 1999 anymore. Apple is much more powerful and popular than back then. Also IOS, Android, HTML 5 browsers, cloud computing, and a plethora of free languages and apis like python, R, rust, node.js, and others changed the landscape. Gone are VB, COM, vc++, Internet Explorer, and WinCE.
MS has a new CEO who realized they no longer set the pace of the industry and if they want to remain relevant they and not loose mellinial developers they need to include, not exclude.
So that is the argument. Remember Apple was cool here and open source too back in 1999 on slashdot. They turned assholish FAST and more aggressive than MS when they got power. All companies are the same once they corner a market
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