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Elon Musk Settles SEC Fraud Charges, Must Step Down As Tesla's Chairman

Soon after it was reported that the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) sued Elon Musk for making false statements related to his abandoned efforts to take Tesla private, the SEC announced today that Elon Musk has agreed to settle the fraud charges. In a press release, the SEC says "Musk and Tesla have agreed to settle the charges against them without admitting or denying the SEC's allegations." The settlements, which are subject to court approval, require the following:

- Musk will step down as Tesla's Chairman and be replaced by an independent Chairman. Musk will be ineligible to be re-elected Chairman for three years;
- Tesla will appoint a total of two new independent directors to its board;
- Tesla will establish a new committee of independent directors and put in place additional controls and procedures to oversee Musk's communications;
- Musk and Tesla will each pay a separate $20 million penalty. The $40 million in penalties will be distributed to harmed investors under a court-approved process.

Slashdot reader Rei writes: In the wake of initially refusing a settlement offer over the wording, Elon Musk has now settled today with the SEC, concerning his tweets about taking Tesla private. As per the settlement agreement, there is 1) no admission of wrongdoing; 2) Musk and Tesla will each pay a $20 million fine; 3) Musk will remain as CEO of Tesla; 4) Musk will be prohibited from serving as chairman of Tesla for three years; and 5) Tesla must appoint two new members to its board of directors. An additional clause seems apropos: Musk must "comply with all mandatory procedures implemented by Tesla, Inc [...] regarding (i) the oversight of communications relating to the Company made in any format, including, but not limited to, posts on social media..."

122 of 234 comments (clear)

  1. Re:I see..., by sunking2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you don't like the rules stay private.

  2. Musk is still CEO by duckintheface · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He will still be running the company and he may yet take it private. This is a victory for Musk. The SEC backed down from insisting on removing his as CEO.

    --
    "He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
    1. Re:Musk is still CEO by Iwastheone · · Score: 1

      Thanks, +1. I guess I should have RTFA. :/

    2. Re:Musk is still CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The SEC didn't back down. Elon Musk changed his mind and decided to take the deal.

      In the original deal, Musk wouldn't have had to give up the CEO position either. He just had to give up the chairman position for 2 years (now 3 years), pay a fine, and appoint 2 new independent directors.

      From Tesla's Musk pulled the plug on a settlement with the SEC at the last minute:

      Tesla and the Securities and Exchange Commission were close to a no-guilt settlement but Elon Musk pulled out at the last minute, sources told CNBC.

      Under the deal, Musk and Tesla would have had to pay a nominal fine, and the CEO would not have had to admit any guilt, the sources said. However, the settlement would have barred Musk as chairman for two years and would require Tesla to appoint two new independent directors, CNBC's David Faber, citing sources.

    3. Re:Musk is still CEO by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The SEC backed down from insisting on removing his as CEO.

      But did force his removal as chairman and the appointment of two independent directors, which probably now makes it a realistic possibility that the board itself could remove him as CEO if he doesn't get his act together.

    4. Re:Musk is still CEO by quantaman · · Score: 1

      He will still be running the company and he may yet take it private. This is a victory for Musk. The SEC backed down from insisting on removing his as CEO.

      Removing him as CEO was the remedy if he went to trial.

      But compared to reports of the settlement he turned down a couple days ago this new deal seem to ban him from chairman for an extra year and adds a new independent committee that can regulate his communications.

      If true turning down the first deal was a pretty significant misstep by Musk.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    5. Re:Musk is still CEO by sunking2 · · Score: 1

      That will do him a lot of good when the new chairman and board fire him as CEO. While unlikely its a possibility now whereas when he was chairman it wasn't.

      He's gone from running the show with impunity to serving at the pleasure of the board.

    6. Re:Musk is still CEO by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Victory? This was the deal they offered him and which he rejected. He didn't want it, he wanted to fight them.

      This is Musk admitting defeat and that he can't win in court, so taking the deal offered.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:Musk is still CEO by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      He got whacked for being bad, and took it well. The penalty is measured and appropriate. He will watch his mouth in future. Tesla goes on building great cars under his leadership. Everybody a winner.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    8. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 2

      I'm curious as to what the requirements for "independence" for the new chairman will be. Because a lot of Tesla shareholders will probably want Kimbal Musk for chairman. He's the most obvious choice.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    9. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 1

      It's an open question as to what changed in the agreement, since we don't have the original text. Previous reports had stated that the original text included the word "fraud", which Musk was strongly against, feeling that he did nothing wrong. But we really don't know without being able to compare the two.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    10. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 1

      The reports were that the original agreement also included the two independent directors.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    11. Re:Musk is still CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The board answers directly to the shareholders, who can remove any or all of the board.

      If Musk can convince enough of the shareholders to vote to take the company private, then the board becomes irrelevant.

      As a long I am increasing my stake in this company in the hopes that it does go private. Tesla is way ahead of their competition, silly tweets or not.

    12. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 2

      Directors are subject to shareholders. And shareholders overwhelmingly want Musk as CEO, as was shown in the last shareholder meeting.

      Shareholders also overwhelmingly opposed adding two directors at the last shareholder meeting, but of course, the SEC has no problem with forcing on the company things that its shareholders don't want. As well as filling their previous complaint with language that could have been taken straight from Jim Chanos.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    13. Re:Musk is still CEO by lgw · · Score: 2

      This does seem like a very good outcome for Tesla as a whole, as one way or another the shareholders will choose the new chairman. Musk has clearly been stretched thin of late; far better to let someone else do the desperate fundraising while Elon can now spend only 80 hours a week running Tesla.

      Did you pick up some more TSLA Friday? I'm feeling good about my new 100 shares.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    14. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ed, correction: the original version purportedly referred to "misleading investors", not "fraud", and that was the language that Musk objected to..

      That statute contains language about misleading investors. Mr. Musk’s lawyers wanted the commission to change its claim to say he was merely negligent in his statement, according to a person familiar with the details of the negotiations.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    15. Re:Musk is still CEO by quantaman · · Score: 1

      The reports were that the original agreement also included the two independent directors.

      The two independent directors on the board, yes. But not the new committee of independent directors with the power to oversee his communications.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    16. Re:Musk is still CEO by sunking2 · · Score: 1

      Oh please. The vast majority if share holders are funds who could not care less about the Cult of Musk. As soon as they believe the stock price is better without him he's gone.

      And the directors could all wake up tomorrow and fire him if they so choose and there isn't a thing that could be done until they themselves are replaced by the shareholders if they so choose. There doesn't have to be any vote to do it.

    17. Re:Musk is still CEO by Iwastheone · · Score: 1

      I think that if I ever go on Twitter, I'm going to end all my tweets with, "Funding assured."

    18. Re:Musk is still CEO by mlyle · · Score: 1

      No. It's similar to the original deal, but it doubles the fine and further regulates his communications going forward.

    19. Re:Musk is still CEO by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      The only logical choice for Chairman would be Takeshi Kaga.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    20. Re: Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not directors. Shareholders voted down the resolution to add more directors. 85% of shares voted against the proposal.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    21. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 1

      Only 47 shares. It didn't get nearly as low as I was hoping :( I guess the market cares more about whether Musk smokes (not really) pot and whether one (of dozens) of the company's execs leaves for a different job than they do about the SEC.

      Oh well, Monday will be fun. Honestly, as annoyed as I am with the SEC basically overriding shareholders and working to the benefits of the shorts - who they never investigate, despite a laundry list of complaints - there are some positives. I think institutional investors especially will be pleased with some of the terms. The one thing I like is the social media requirements. Having Musk's tweets filtered by a securities lawyer will remedy the fact that Musk's brain has no filter and he always says exactly what he's thinking, for good or for bad ;) I just hope that they carefully tread the line between "filtering" and "muzzling".

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    22. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 1

      Okay, that would be hilarious ;) And they need that calm voiceover guy to translate everything that he says on the conference calls ;)

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    23. Re:Musk is still CEO by Rei · · Score: 1

      Very well might have. We only have the most basic outlines of the original detail leaked out.

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      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    24. Re:Musk is still CEO by mlyle · · Score: 2

      But the situation is the same. He settled a legal complaint of securities fraud, neither admitting nor denying the charge.

      The difference from Thursday is that he doubled the fine, increased the amount of required oversight, got an additional year of chairmanship ban, and appeared to the world even more mercurial (reject a deal Thursday, causing a bad news event Thurs afternoon, and then proceed take a worse deal Saturday).

    25. Re:Musk is still CEO by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      SEC has no problem with forcing on the company things that its shareholders don't want.

      The whole point of any regulatory body is to protect people from their "own stupidity".

      Now, you might argue that the bureaucrats at the SEC don't know what's better for Tesla than its shareholders, but those bureaucrats would strongly disagree and they have the power to punish anybody who disagrees with their omniscience.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    26. Re: Musk is still CEO by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Sit tight. It is going to drop for a bit, likely below 200. And that is in spite of how well Musk and M3 have done.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    27. Re: Musk is still CEO by Tom · · Score: 2

      I'm a shareholder.

      I hereby volunteer to become one of the additional two directors.

      I promise to miss all meetings and never vote on anything I'm not legally obliged to vote on (in which case I'll abstain), so that my addition to the board makes no difference whatsoever.

      I'll even do it for free (necessary expenses paid, please, but I want nothing for my own pocket).

      If the SEC gives you the finger, give it two fingers back. I'm sure it will be at most minutes until someone else adds "me too" to this comment, and there you have your two additional directors, with nothing actually changing.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    28. Re: Musk is still CEO by mlyle · · Score: 1

      You'd have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders as a whole to exercise reasonable care --- e.g. missing substantial numbers of meetings and failing to vet proposals and exercise due diligence could expose you to significant liability.

    29. Re:Musk is still CEO by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Thanks, that's important to note.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    30. Re:Musk is still CEO by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      The whole point of any regulatory body is to protect people from their "own stupidity".

      No, the primary purpose of a regulatory body is to protect people from other people's stupidity, and sometimes malice.

      The SEC exists to protect investors from businesses that want to lie their way into profitability. The EPA exists to protect people from toxic waste produced by factories. The FDA exists to protect people from being sold relabeled rat meat. And the DMV protects good drivers from people who really shouldn't be driving.

    31. Re: Musk is still CEO by Tom · · Score: 1

      The company is successful this far, and not significantly interfering with its operation is the best kind of reasonable care that I can exercise. Since the position is an elected position and my strategy is communicated well in advance of the election, by voting for me shareholders express their explicit desire for me to act in the way that I outlined.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    32. Re: Musk is still CEO by shaitand · · Score: 1

      I'm not a shareholder, therefore independent and won't do it for free.

      Tesla doesn't need more stock roller coaster games right now, it needs management.

    33. Re: Musk is still CEO by mlyle · · Score: 1

      You have a fiduciary duty to all the shareholders. Even the ones that didn't vote for you. That is, consent of shareholders "isn't enough".

      There's an ample body of law on directors' duty of care: directors are required to make a good faith effort to gather all information related to a decision and to make a careful decision on all matters. Absentee directors have been found liable many, many times.

    34. Re: Musk is still CEO by Tom · · Score: 1

      In such case I will make careful decisions to not interfere with the so far successful course the company has taken.

      The law is gameable. In fact, it is designed to be gameable. The vast majority of the law is written by lawyers, whose profession is to game the system. An ideal law would work without lawyers in all but the most obscure and difficult cases.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    35. Re:Musk is still CEO by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That's like saying it referred to "pink farm animals with flat snouts that like to roll in mud" and didn't mention "pigs" at all.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    36. Re:Musk is still CEO by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The SEC backed down from insisting on removing his as CEO.

      But did force his removal as chairman and the appointment of two independent directors, which probably now makes it a realistic possibility that the board itself could remove him as CEO if he doesn't get his act together.

      Yep, the SEC didn't back down, Musk did, the SEC won.

      The SEC like many prosecutors in the US like to use scare tactics, this means throwing every charge they can at someone so they will cave in and accept a deal on lesser charges, in this case being the fine (20 million IIRC) and Musk stepping down as Chairman.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  3. Chairman vs CEO by HuskyDog · · Score: 2

    So, as I understand it, Musk can't be "Chairman" of Tesla for the next three years, but he can remain as "CEO". Could someone who understands what the difference between these two posts is possibly explain it for the benefit of those of us - particularly from outside the USA - who don't. What does this mean is practice about the reduction (if any) if Musk's influence over Tesla.

    1. Re:Chairman vs CEO by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Chairman is a position on the board of directors. The board of directors represents the shareholders, and in general does not manage the day to day affairs of the business; but rather hires a Chief Executive Officer (who in many organizations is the only actual direct employee of the board of directors) as the most senior manager. The board oversees long-term strategies, approves annual budgets, and in most private companies is elected by shareholders who hold common shares (one vote per common share). If Musk is no longer on the board of directors, even if he remains CEO, it is conceivable that the board could fire him, or at least intervene. He will be subordinate to the board, which is why I think the SEC is also requiring the number of directors be bumped up to dilute any control he may have over the board.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Chairman vs CEO by AlanObject · · Score: 3, Informative

      I am pretty sure the rules are the same in your country because this much is pretty global. Nominally the corporate structure is as follows:

      Stockholders own the company. There can be different classes as stock but as a whole the majority of stockholders can vote for the corporation to do anything legal.

      The stockholders appoint a Board of Directors and the Board Chairman. They can be removed by the stockholders so they are accountable to the stockholders. Directors are usually stockholders themselves but not necessarily or so.

      The Board of Directors decide who the CEO and usually who all the major officers of the corporation are, such as the #2 guy and the CFO and corporate counsel. The bylaws (as approved by stockholders) will generally also have the sole power for certain actions like selling dock, taking out loans, etc. Often large lenders want to see Board approval before granting credit. However the CEO reports to the Board.

      The CEO is in charge of everything else and if he/she doesn't do what the board likes the board removes him/her and gets someone else.

    3. Re:Chairman vs CEO by 605dave · · Score: 1

      I am not a coward, I forgot to log in. Responses will appear from this account

      --
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
    4. Re:Chairman vs CEO by Local+ID10T · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just to clarify:

      Musk still has a seat on the board of directors. He gives up only his position as chairman of the board of directors.

      The appointment of the 2 additional directors will serve to dilute his control over the company, as it is the board which sets out the directives the CEO/president (aka Musk) must follow.

      --
      "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
    5. Re:Chairman vs CEO by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      the CEO is an employee of the company. The board of directors represent the interests of the investors and are elected by the investors and hire and fire the CEO at will

      New chairman and two new directors, I think its 50/50 he's out as CEO within 6 months

    6. Re:Chairman vs CEO by hey! · · Score: 2

      This means Musk is going to have a boss.

      The CEO runs the company on a day to day basis, and all managers in the company report to him. The CEO and other C level executives are appointed and supervised by the board of directors, which is led by a chairman. The board can dismiss a CEO, veto his decisions; they decide on some kinds of proposals a CEO might make, in other cases choose whether to put something (like being acquired or going private) to the shareholders. The chairman on his own can do none of these things.

      Chairman on paper is usually a first among equals position on the board; it's the board that calls the shots. In practice he's the guy favored by the biggest shareholders, and so wields a lot of influence. The power balance between CEO and chairman varies depending on the company and people involved. Some chairmen are hands off, just orchestrating board activities; other ones leverage their influence into an almost a co-CEO position.

      Elon Musk owns about 11% of Tesla; in total Musk plus long time insiders who are likely loyal to him own about a quarter of Tesla stock. That's a big bloc, so it's unlikely the chairman will run roughshod over Musk. But 60% of Tesla stock his held by large institutional investors; so it's unlikely the chairman will be Musk's lapdog either.

      Overall I see this as a very positive thing for Tesla.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    7. Re:Chairman vs CEO by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Good catch. So he keeps his position as senior manager, loses the position of chairman which means, at least technically, he loses the ability to set the overall direction of the company, and dilution of his effective authority over the board means he very much becomes purely management now, and can be overridden, dismissed from the board, or even fired as CEO.

      Honestly, this is the way most public companies have to go. At some point, if you are publicly trading and have a significant number of shareholders, the company is supposed to be about their interests, and not about yours'.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:Chairman vs CEO by mlyle · · Score: 1

      Chairman runs the meetings and generally has very little additional power than an ordinary director. It's mostly a prestige thing.

    9. Re:Chairman vs CEO by mlyle · · Score: 1

      > The fact of the matter is the chairman of the board is the "proper channel" between the board and upper management. That's it so far as a requirement.

      --- no? That's not the way it's worked on any of the boards I've sat on. The board and committee passes resolutions that are provided to management.. The board and CEO freely talk together in meetings. Individual members of management contact board members and vice-versa as appropriate. Yes, if it is determined that the board needs to have a "serious" talk with the CEO, it's more likely the chairman will be chosen for the task. But actually, as often as not, it's the board's *counsel* that does this.

      > Some COBs have majority investment, some have majority voting shares, some are also CEO. In the cases any of those aspects are true, the COB has much greater power compared to the rest of the board.

      Haha. Except none of these hinge on whether the person is chairman or not.

      > Less in general and more specific to Tesla, all of the above were true for Musk, thus your blanket statement is both wrong in this case and wrong in general.

      > > he loses the ability to set the overall direction of the company

      That's "dead-on" direct, when none of Musk's power flows by virtue of being chairman? He has power by virtue of A) being exceptionally important to the business, B) being a key stockholder, C) being CEO, D) being a member of the board, and a distant last, E) being chairman of that board.

    10. Re:Chairman vs CEO by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      This means Musk is going to have a boss.

      He's going to have a boss he can look at. He's always had shareholders as his nominal bosses, but his actions have proven he can't be trusted to represent their interests, so now he's going to have someone over him that can tell him to stop.

      It's worth noting that if he's respected by the board and his influence is felt to be an integral to the way the company works, this'll be little more than symbolic. Boards rarely overrule CEOs or micromanage them. If the relationship between a CEO and the board breaks down to the point that the CEO's influence over the immediate and long term direction of the company is undermined, boards usually fire the CEO and pick someone they can trust.

      I don't have the same high opinion of Musk that people here generally do, but I find it doubtful that the board of Tesla, even with two new outsiders joining, is suddenly going to go anti-Musk. He has built the company's culture, he's a popular figure outside of Tesla, he's Tesla's post-NeXT Steve Jobs. If he's kicked out, it'll be after some disastrous performance from the company as a whole, and if that happens the chances are Tesla will be dead anyway, whoever's in charge.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    11. Re:Chairman vs CEO by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Could someone who understands what the difference between these two posts is possibly explain it for the benefit of those of us

      The Chairman is the head of the board.
      The CEO is an employee of the board.

      Currently Musk is his own boss with a bit of mediation by a group of people advising him about himself and what's good for the shareholders.
      Going forward Musk will an employee responsible to a group of people representing the shareholders.

    12. Re:Chairman vs CEO by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that Musk is by far Tesla's largest shareholder, and it would be well within the realm of possibility for him to form a voting coalition with other large shareholders to control the board if he so chose.

    13. Re:Chairman vs CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Many countries in West-Europe put (ex-)politicians in the board of directors and even as chairman. Many larger companies have to endure a politician in their company structure in order to be granted tax reductions, subsidization, a permit (!) or access to government funded research (there are more advantages...).

      If Tesla was founded in Europe instead of California, the chairman would have been someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger since he is an ex-politician in California.

    14. Re:Chairman vs CEO by JabrTheHut · · Score: 1

      Let’s just sanity check what you’re saying. Shorts are not investors. They want to see the company fail, and fail hard. Demanding that their interests are protected is like demanding that Dahmer become your bodyguard.

      --
      Work like no one is watching. Dance like you've never been hurt. Make love like you don't need the money.
  4. That was one expensive tweet by mrsam · · Score: 2

    So, the capsule summary here: a single drunk-tweet ended up costing Musk+Tesla a cool $40 million.

    It's a good thing I don't use Twitter. I can't afford that kind of cash.

    1. Re:That was one expensive tweet by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      Maybe that Joe Rogan interview didn't help either.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    2. Re: That was one expensive tweet by Colourspace · · Score: 1

      The funny thing to me is that, from what I saw, Musk didn't even inhale properly, again making it a pointless exercise. He didn't get high, and got a shitload of negative publicity - for not getting high! He seems quite good at shooting himself in the foot right now.

    3. Re:That was one expensive tweet by slickwillie · · Score: 1

      At least the settlement doesn't include drug testing (AFAIK). He supposedly really likes his coke.

    4. Re:That was one expensive tweet by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Reportedly Musk was already under investigation before that tweet.

      The summary for the rest of us is that his twitter feed is going to become a lot less entertaining now.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  5. Those are some expensive tweets by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    Musk and Tesla will each pay a separate $20 million penalty. The $40 million in penalties will be distributed to harmed investors under a court-approved process.

    Those are some expensive tweets.

    Oh brave new world, that has such social media in it!

    1. Re:Those are some expensive tweets by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Just expensive enough to be painful, not expensive enough to cause lasting damage. Just right.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  6. Just a friendly reminder by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    not to screw with wealthy, well connected investors. For those of you playing at home Enron & Bernie Madoff did just fine ripping off little old ladies of their life savings until they got greedy and big heads & went after bigger fish.

    --
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    1. Re:Just a friendly reminder by PPH · · Score: 1, Insightful

      not to screw with wealthy, well connected investors.

      Like public pension funds. When you think fat, rich, greedy bastards, think CALPERS before you think Rockefeller.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Just a friendly reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This settlement involves "no admission of wrongdoing."

      But the fact that he settled is an implicit admission of wrongdoing. Maybe in theory it isn't or shouldn't be, but in reality it *is*. It is outright obvious that he didn't settle because he was innocent but it was too hard to prove it.

      If they grab you and you have to fight a first degree murder charge, or plead guilty to jaywalking, what do you do? You didn't do anything, but you'd be stupid to fight it.

    3. Re:Just a friendly reminder by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      No, the desire is to get it resolved so it isn't an issue anymore. It is too much of a distraction for the company (and especially the stock). Curious if it is a better deal than was made previously.

    4. Re:Just a friendly reminder by DCFusor · · Score: 1

      It's the most SHORTED stock on the market, which isn't a thing most pension funds can even legally do. Making it go up via BS cost weak shorts money - that's who is pissed off. Don't assume, actually follow the money. There's plenty of bad guys, your favorite one might no the be main player *this time*.

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
    5. Re:Just a friendly reminder by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      I think it's simpler than that. There's no need for a cabal of elite financial illuminati. It's simple politics. Elon Musk told 45 to kiss off and left that "tech advisory council" of his after he reneged on our obligations under the Paris climate accords. Musk has been vocally supportive of environmental controls and alternative energy, which 45 either personally hates or hates as the proxy of his coal and oil industry backers.

      And while the SEC is nominally and theoretically supposed to be "independent and nonpartisan", it does still fall under the executive branch; 45's personal fiefdom in the government. And 4 of its 5 commissioners are trumpian thugs, three having come into their offices this year and one in 2017. That, IMO, makes any and all of its actions suspect for the duration. And given 45's temperament, plus the adversarial relationship he's cultivated with Musk, Tesla, and Silicon Valley in general; I'd peg this as nothing more than simpleminded revenge. Musk misstepped, and 45 saw the opportunity to knife him in the back.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
  7. Re:I see..., by sunking2 · · Score: 2

    It's not about a tweet, it's about manipulating stock prices with false information.

  8. Re:Double standard by balsy2001 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He is not a private businessman. Tesla is a publicly trade company, which comes with rules. He shouldnt have done an IPO to raise money if he wanted to be a private busniessman.

    --
    GENERATION 27: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  9. Re:I see..., by lgw · · Score: 1

    It's not about a tweet, it's about manipulating stock prices with false information.

    ... on Twitter.

    I agree with GPP: any information on social media is automatically assumed to be a lie that no reasonable person would believe.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  10. Re:Your nerd gods are in hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think RMS is a SJW dictator. His politics are left, but considering that he was attacked almost a decade ago by SJW's for a lame EMACS virgin joke that he sometimes told at speaking gigs, I seriously doubt he's all that sympathetic to their tactics and authoritarian speech codes.

  11. Re:Disband the SEC by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

    Then feel free to do business somewhere else.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  12. Re:I see..., by known_coward_69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Legally he isn't allowed to talk about taking the company private to anyone without a need to know about the transaction. If he said the same thing at a party instead of tweeting it, same result.

    30 years ago this might have been OK, but now it's market moving info and you arrange the transaction in secret and announce it once it's done.

  13. Pocket Change by Luthair · · Score: 1

    Elon's net worth is ~20 billion, so 20 million is 0.1%, this is the equivalent of you the reader going out and buying an OK suit.

  14. CNN on Tesla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/28/technology/tesla-stock-analysts/index.html

    Summary: stock price plunging, expected to keep falling to $200-225/sh.

    Company's ability to raise needed $2B by 4Q to avoid bankruptcy in doubt.

    1. Re:CNN on Tesla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Did you not even read the article?

      "Tesla's stock fell 12% to $270 a share on Friday."

      It has been on a downward vector for some time. Analyst expectations:

      "The firm slashed Tesla's price target to $200 per share."

      But keep on believing very short term fluctuations mean shit...

  15. Re:Disband the SEC by PPH · · Score: 1

    the SEC can arbitrarily fine someone 20 million dollars after an admission of no wrong doing

    It's a settlement. Musk and Tesla agree to pay 20 mil. There is no admission of wrongdoing (which could trigger a number of other legal provisions). And Tesla agrees to do some BOD reorganization. The alternative is to fight it, have a court find Musk guilty, impose a fine and be subject to much more damaging penalties. It's primarily the guilty verdict that they want to avoid.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  16. Re: I see..., by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Musk did not create Tesla.

  17. Re: Disband the SEC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Do you still pretend voting can reverse the corruption in our government? That has to be exhausting.

  18. Swift by Waccoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, that was quick. A billionaire CEO of a major corporation, who can influence untold amounts of money in stocks, can get a settlement within days of the public announcement that he would be sued. It amounts to a slap on the wrist.

    I wonder how many years an ordinary person would be dragged through the mud over a shady business deal amounting to a few thousand. They'd probably have to register for a sex offender list, just to be on the safe side.

    1. Re:Swift by TXJD · · Score: 1

      Well, the SEC had offered the same deal first, and Musk declined. SEC then sued. So he's essentially getting the same deal as initially.

    2. Re:Swift by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It amounts to a slap on the wrist.

      Exactly. It's what my grandmother would have called a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket.

      He's still CEO, he's still on the Board, he's still basically running the company and nothing of substance has actually changed. A couple of "independent" directors are going to do fuck all when the Board's already stacked with his cronies and yes-men.

      The only thing this has done is perhaps mean we'll no longer see his ridiculous tweets coming out when he's high, given the requirement for a communications oversight.

      What Musk will have learned from all this is that he can continue his endless lies and bullshit with impunity.

    3. Re:Swift by gurps_npc · · Score: 2

      Actually pretty typical - IF you capitulate. Most people accused of a crime can settle it with a single conversation. The Prosecutor looks things over, makes an offer and if you take, you are done.

      It only gets dragged on for years if you try to fight it in court.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    4. Re:Swift by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      It amounts to a slap on the wrist.

      It would amount to a slap on the wrist even if it was just a small CEO at a small public company. What he did was the business equivalent of speeding.

      can get a settlement within days of the public announcement that he would be sued.

      Are you impressed with the speed of this happening? This was quite a small case, everyone involved had high paid lawyers, and the only contention was a bit of wording in the settlement. I wouldn't expect this kind of thing to drag out unless contested in court. Heck this was incredibly slow by standards of many cases (e.g. the RIAA which just sends out settlement letters that can be resolved instantly if uncontested).

      I wonder how many years an ordinary person would be dragged through the mud over a shady business deal amounting to a few thousand. They'd probably have to register for a sex offender list, just to be on the safe side.

      You only wonder about this because in your isolated world view of tech news this is the first such case you've heard about. Whereas in reality it's quite common for CEO / Boardmen and women to get some action against them by the SEC.

      In 2017 alone the SEC issued 754 such filings totaling to close to $4bn in penalties. How many of them did you know about? Probably few because small enforcement cases like this don't typically get much traction in the common media.

  19. Aww by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Funny

    Here I thought Musk's plan was to get investigated by the SEC, thus causing Tesla's shares to tank, which in turn would make it much less expensive to take the company private.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:Aww by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I thought about the same: How to make sctock price scam legaly without getting into trouble with SEC? Make SEC do it for you! Let them kick you out, you and your allies buy shares for 150 instead 420+, and once Tesla is private, come back through the front door...

    2. Re:Aww by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      4-dimensional chess!

      In reality, Musk is just a flawed person - in part visionary, micromanager and dumbass. Perhaps he should take the slap on the wrist and just hire competent people to do the day to day stuff like run his companies and vet his tweets for stupid.

  20. Details missing by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Likely he had an offer but his definition of a solid offer and the SEC's legal definition of are two different things (this is why you run things past lawyers 1st.) I heard some rumor he was working too much and was thinking of giving up the chair anyway. What has to be pissing him off is the appointment of outsiders to the board; which makes one think that there are other forces at play. Aside from him strongly feeling he did no wrong since he thought he had a legit offer.

    He should have gone private while he had a the chance. Moving forward on that would have turned the offer from laymen terms into legal terms while having the Saudi's with a controlling stake in the company-- that may have been safer than what happens next.

    1. Re:Details missing by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      I'd say it's also a good example of why Twitter is a really awful communications channel; one which should not be used by... well... anyone who aspires to be taken seriously as anything besides a semi-coherent rambling loon. Really, if your thoughts, on just about any topic, are so lacking in nuance that you can express them in 140 characters; you should probably keep those thoughts to yourself.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
  21. Share strategy by ishmaelflood · · Score: 2

    So you bought 100 shares at 265. Are you hoping they'll rise in the short term and then blow them off, or are you looking for a long term capital gain? I assume you aren't in it for dividends. What is your exit strategy?

    1. Re:Share strategy by lgw · · Score: 1

      Betting that TSLA would make its production numbers for Q3 and Q4. Or if it goes too high, realtive to the past couple years, any time I'll get out. Q3 numbers turned out well.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Share strategy by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Betting that TSLA would make its production numbers for Q3 and Q4. Or if it goes too high, realtive to the past couple years, any time I'll get out. Q3 numbers turned out well.

      For Q3 and Q4, profit / loss numbers will matter a lot more than production.
      Q1 / Q2 2019 will be very interesting as the waiting list for people who'll buy the long range / performance versions should have been exhausted and most will be hoping for the promised $35k model.
      If that isn't ready for the domestic market and Tesla isn't ready to ship overseas or to right-hand drive markets, deliveries may tumble in H1 2019

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    3. Re:Share strategy by lgw · · Score: 2

      IMO, profit numbers aren't interesting until Tesla is consistently producing "real car company" numbers for the Model 3. If it doesn't, for lack of ability or lack of demand, it's toast (though I think it will). As you say, how will their sales beonce they're past the pre-orders.

      Next year, the interesting question will be "at volume, how profitable is Tesla before debt service". That will determine whether the company will survive. If they're able to get on top of fixed costs, but not keep up with debt service, I expect they'll find bridge loans; otherwise again they're toast.

      IMO, they can break even against COGS for the $35k model in 2019 and be fine, as long as the Model 3 line as a whole has the cashflow to cover all the fixed costs and make some headway against the debt. I don't expect them to be really profitable until they have a second high-production model (SUV or pickup truck), which is a ways off.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  22. Dreamer by pizzamannetje · · Score: 2

    Elon is a dreamer. He didn't even gain anything from his tweet, did he? If this somewhat careless tweet costs 40M, how come Trump isn't broke by now?

  23. About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hopefully his post as CEO is next.

  24. Re:I see..., by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    The company he created is more important than it's creator. So, the government can arbitrarily tell him that he must step down? I'd be very pissed.

    This smells like the government's destruction of Tucker Motors on behalf of the Big Three.

    "Elon! The cars...you made them too good!"

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  25. Re:I see..., by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    30 years ago this might have been OK, but now it's market moving info and you arrange the transaction in secret and announce it once it's done.

    It's great how the SEC is there to keep shareholders of public companies in the dark about what's going on in the companies, especially when they all have equal access to that information. I know, I know, the institutional investors need to have priority access so the poor schmucks at retail don't stand a chance.

    Elon got governmented good and hard. A shame; he can get back to productive private-sector business now, though, so there's a silver lining. But we all learned a few lessons on this one.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  26. This could be good for Musk, and for Tesla by raymorris · · Score: 2

    For most of my career I've founded and run companies, always companies doing something new and different. I didn't mind the risks involved, and I enjoyed trying to accomplish something that no other company had done. I was pretty good at starting companies but not as good at running them after they got going and were somewhat stable.

    I think in some ways Musk is similar - as soon as he has one company up and going, even being *on its way* to having a saleable product, he goes off and starts another company. He likes starting companies, and he's good at it.

    After one of my companies was up and going, making sales of a good product for several years, I realized I'm not great at running a business. Market strategy, strategies partnerships, etc aren't my thing. I probably should have sold the company, but again finding a buyer and negotiating the sale of a company isn't my thing I'm better at starting them, getting them off the ground. So one thing I looked into doing was getting people who ARE good at those, people who were running successful companies, and having them on my board. They'd meet maybe four times per year and have emails and phone calls throughout the year. If the board unanimously decided that something I as CEO wanted to do was stupid, they could override me. That might we'll have been good for me, to have a panel of successful business people having some oversight over my decisions and giving their opinions on major matters. It could be good for Musk as a stockholder too. He's good at thinking big and he's good at promotion, at getting media attention, but that doesn't mean all of his business decisions are the very best. Tempering him with independent board members could make his company more successful.

    A thought just occurred to me. Musk thinks big, he really likes to do things on a huge scale. He's good at getting attention from the media and others. Guess who else is good at getting attention and likes to do everything yuge? :)

  27. What do you have against public pension funds? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    They tend to make pretty damn safe investments and don't usually get dragged into stuff like this. Did you just want to make a generic attack on pensions? Why?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:What do you have against public pension funds? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Did you just want to make a generic attack on pensions? Why?

      An attack on pension funds driven by underlying political agendas, yes. I've got no problems with pensions and other retirement plans aimed at providing their members with a comfortable retirement. But the workers' control* of the means of production died a well-deserved death in Eastern Europe. Marxism in the form of activist pensions needs to go as well.

      *It never really was the workers in control in the Soviet system. Privileged party members had much the same position as fat cat boards of directors do here. But if you pointed that out, you ended up in the Gulag. In this country, exposing the man behind the curtain only warrants accusations of attacking some poor teacher's retirement funds to date. Some day, we might actually have a functioning KGB.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  28. Re:I see..., by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

    How do you do this if you want to keep your large shareholders in the game? They would be forced to halt trading in the stock once they have the information, which is untenable for a large fund.

    He should have had better advice prior to doing anything, but that does get tricky... especially when you run things kind of by the seat of your pants...

  29. Fuck em by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    Destroy Tesla... Start another Car Company... Easy Peasy for Musk.

    --
    [($)]
    1. Re:Fuck em by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if he's willing to risk only his entire fortune. Because other investors are really on the lookout to invest with a petulant child who will take his ball and go home if things don't go his way.

      Tesla and BitCoin stories are fun to watch the complete idiots on finance and economics come out of the woordwork.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  30. Re:Sue twitter by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    For making him a twit. :P

    --
    [($)]
  31. They haven't been in the past by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    what I see most commonly when folks talk about unsustainable pensions is that the pension has been raided by someone. That's what happened to Hostess. It was doing just fine until the owners of the company used a downturn in the economy to get employees to agree to give up most of it. Eddy Lambert, owner of Sears, is currently trying to do the same thing, claiming that the pension is why Sears is failing (and not his mismanagement or that he keeps selling off their best brands).

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  32. Re:Thank God by jonwil · · Score: 1

    The people who have the job of going after the people who run public companies and the people who have the job of going after unwanted Mexicans are totally different. Its very much possible for the US government to be doing both things at once.

  33. Re:I see..., by Megol · · Score: 1

    With Musks twitter account being an official, registered, Tesla communication channel?
    Will you soon pop up claiming that press conferences from Tesla should automatically be assumed to be lies?

    I think you are confused. Severely so.

  34. Re:Disband the SEC by Megol · · Score: 1

    He can still go to jail. The SEC could stop him from leading any company for a long time and could give high fines, not give him jail time. Criminal investigations are done elsewhere and this deal doesn't affect that.

  35. Re:Your nerd gods are in hell by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    I don't think RMS is a SJW dictator. .... considering that he was attacked almost a decade ago by SJW's .... I seriously doubt he's all that sympathetic to their tactics and authoritarian speech codes.

    That does not mean he is not a SJW. You are assuming that all SJWs exactly agree with each other. But RMS does enough to qualify as a SJW just by persisting in using "she" as a general personal pronoun; I usually stop reading his rants in irritation at that point - anyone can simply use "they" as a long-established non-gender pronoun if they wish.

  36. Re:I see..., by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    The company he created is more important than it's creator.

    He did not create Tesla, he bought into it.

  37. Move to Ireland by olddoc · · Score: 1

    3 years from now his first tweet after reelection as Chairman should be that he is moving Tesla to Ireland: FU SEC!

    --
    Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
  38. Re:Wow... this is hillarious by ledow · · Score: 1

    That's one interpretation.

    The other is: Musk lied to the world about the potential of investment in his company.

    You can't do that. It's illegal. You can hype, but you can't lie. That's why it's always "we believe...", "we forecast...", "we predict...", "we want to be..."

    He's not being held to any rules different to everybody else. And it has little to do with gullibility of investors. Hell, people would have profited from jumping on the hype train and getting out before other people realised what they already knew.

    He's being held to account for straight-out lying about what the company were doing, as the CEO of the company.

  39. The Board of Directors is like the Politburo by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    A board of directors is the Capitalist version of the Politburo, or the Politburo in a Communist government is like a corporate board of directors.

    Actually, there is the Central Committee to which the Politburo reports, but you get the idea.

    In a political democracy, which neither a Communist government or a Capitalist corporation are, you don't have such a thing, but you have various checks-and-balances such as an independent judiciary or a bicameral (two-house) legislature or three-branch legislature-executive-judicial system.

    A family member served on the board of directors of a shopping mall. The board hired a mall manager who had a more-than-full-time job actually running the place, but the board would meet once a month to discuss "how the mall was doing" -- were there rental vacancies or did new tenants replace the ones who left or were kicked out? Is the nail salon underreporting their income and underpaying the profit-based portion of their rent?

    I too wonder about having the CEO also serve as Chairman-of-the-Board. In Catholic parishes, the parish priest typically serves as Chairman of the Parish Council whereas is Protestant churches, the pastor is regarded more as a church employee rather than having special status under Apostolic Succession? Protestant churches can hire and fire their pastor whereas a Catholic parish pretty much has to work with the priest assigned to them by the bishop? So how much independence does a Catholic Parish Council have with the priest sitting right there and what Catholic-in-good-enough-standing-to-get-elected-to-Council is going to disrespect their priest?

    I also wondered how the Politburo functioned under Stalin -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... -- members of this Communist version of a Board of Directors starting ending up dead when they disagreed?

    So even corporate boards can have varying degrees of independence or lack thereof from the guy-in-charge? So let's just hope the new Tesla board members stay healthy?

  40. Is Musk really the founder of Tesla? by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    Didn't these other guys (Eberhard? Straubel? Maybe Tarpenning?) found Tesla, or at least the started some kind of electric car company is a garage before Musk came along?

    At the very least, Musk is the Jobs and some other dudes or dudettes are the Woz of Tesla? But hasn't Musk glommed on to the limelight; is he the Stalin of Tesla?

    There must be a lot of really smart people at Tesla and SpaceX, but I guess Elon Musk is the public face and the "visionary." I am getting to think that Tesla needs to move on from Tesla, and I am told that is already the case at SpaceX with Gwynne Shotwell running that place?

  41. Don't Tesla supporters by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    ever come up for air?

  42. Re:I see..., by lgw · · Score: 2

    Yes. Social media: all lies. Official, presidential, or otherwise, still automatically lies.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  43. Re: Your nerd gods are in hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ok. An SJW is an activist busybody who feels completely correct in both telling and compelling others how to think and act. They are highly offended by pretty much anything but especially at the notion of someone disagreeing with them. They are the ultimate stereotypers, believing that one's group (usually immutable things like race, gender, sexual orientation, etc) literally define a person, both on their side and their opposition.

    SJWs stop at literally nothing to silence their opposition, routinely engaging in tactics like going after a person's employment even when the thing they're upset about had nothing to do with someone representing an employer. SJWs are also behind high profile harassment of people eating dinner, of disrupting Senate hearings, of illegally invading college offices for the purpose of intimidation, etc.
      The concept is to make such people afraid to even have any opinions, let alone voice them. They count on the reluctance of authorities to be seen as attacking women and minorities as cover for their illegal behavior, thus unironically claiming for themselves special rights that others in the population do not have because SJWs do not hesitate to use authorities against their opposition if they can.

    One manifestation of this is how people who support Donald Trump are reluctant to put stickers on their cars, signs on their homes, and even wear MAGA clothing because of multiple widespread documented cases of vandalism and violence. You see liberal and leftist campaign materials untouched around the nation because the opposition does not engage in these tactics and yet they claim the opposition are fascists.

    These tactics are similar to those used by the early Nazi party when they were trying to gain power, and yet SJWs call their opposition Nazis routinely.

    It is worth noting that the thoughts and opinions of people the SJWs claim to fight for are functuonally irrelevant to them. What is important is that they be SEEN standing up for some group they identify as victims (hence the term "virtue signaling").

    Black people, gay people, etc. who disapprove of their antics as counterproductive or who believe that they don't need any help from purple haired leftists are routinely villified. When the right says that leftists want to keep blacks on the plantation this is what they're referring to.

    I could go on, but SJWs are reprehensible, vile, self-righteous people with an 'any means necessary' attitude reminiscent of religious ferver who find no shame in anything they do and are capable of espousing literally any position so long as it's opposite of whatever group they choose to oppose.

    So I'm sorry you don't like people using a three letter term to represent all of that, but it does get a bit unwieldly to say all the time.

  44. Re: Your nerd gods are in hell by Dzimas · · Score: 2

    One manifestation of this is how people who support Donald Trump are reluctant to put stickers on their cars, signs on their homes, and even wear MAGA clothing because of multiple widespread documented cases of vandalism and violence. You see liberal and leftist campaign materials untouched around the nation because the opposition does not engage in these tactics and yet they claim the opposition are fascists.

    These tactics are similar to those used by the early Nazi party

    MAGA is a far right wing political movement. Its opponents include moderate Republicans as well as Democrats and others. The majority of Americans disagree with MAGA policies related to taxation, health care, immigration, foreign trade and political isolationism.

    The critical thing to realize is that the people who disagree with MAGA are typical Americans. They're not extremists. They're not the mythical leftists that extremists paint as the boogeyman (seriously, does *anyone* in their right mind see the USA as a hotbed of socialism or communism?). They're just normal people who want a good life.

    MAGA bumper stickers, signs and clothing are offensive to the average American, in much the same way that wearing a t-shirt in support of the KKK is offensive. Americans must have the freedom to stand up and and declare, "I do not believe in your extremist policies. You do not speak for me. You do not speak for the majority."

  45. More Free Time by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    To spend with his kids, hopefully. He probably needs it.

    --
    [($)]
  46. Re:Accountants?? by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    and take Tesla/ New company private. Everyone's an Idiot when $'s involved thats why we hire accountants to handle our billions. :)

    --
    [($)]
  47. Re:Victims? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

    40 million USD for a company that loses over a billion USD a year isn't even a slap on the wrist.

  48. Re:Your nerd gods are in hell by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

    It's sort of like "politically correct" - it's not a well-defined term, it's just an insult that some people use and so it means whatever they want it to mean. Insults are like that, if you think about every time you've ever called someone an idiot: were they all really "a foolish or stupid person"? Or perhaps some of them just did a foolish or stupid thing. Or maybe not even that, maybe they did something which wasn't foolish but which you disliked for some other reason.

    When I first heard the term SJW I thought it was clever. It's a better insult than most, much better than "politically correct," there really are people who thrive on outrage. It was driven into the ground very quickly though. As with Linus Tovalds' recent behavioral change: the term might be a good one but the people who use it create too much negative overhead.

  49. Re:Your nerd gods are in hell by piojo · · Score: 1

    In all honesty.. please define a SJW.

    I'll take a stab at it. A SJW is someone who ostensibly supports social causes, but shows hypocrisy by one or more of the following:

    1) neglects some basic morality or fairness in the causes they choose to support (for example, supporting their favorite cause over another which has greater need or is more deserving)
    2) makes a game of oppression, where the most oppressed must be believed to be more correct in every discussion
    3) tries to achieve their goals with quasi-violent tactics like lying, vandalism, ruining reputations, or ruining careers
    4) claims to support social justice but actually only picks fights for their own satisfaction
    5) lying in discussions about social issues
    6) virtue signalling (as opposed to taking actions which achieve social goals)
    7) advocating exclusively for one's own group rather than for fairness

    Aside: why are lying and violence hypocritical? Because if the goal is fairness (and it should be, lest we advocate sexism and racism in favor of one's own group), honest conversation is the only path forward. Free exchange of ideas, perspectives, and hard data and statistics is the way we discover what is right and fair. A person that advocates fairness has no credibility if he lies, misquotes, or puts words in someone else's mouth.

    --
    A cat can't teach a dog to bark.