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Hubble Telescope Hit By Mechanical Failure (bbc.com)

The Hubble Space Telescope is operating with only essential functions after it lost one of the gyroscopes needed to point the spacecraft. From a report: The observatory, described as one of the most important scientific instruments ever created, was placed in "safe mode" over the weekend, while scientists try to fix the problem. Hubble had been operating with four of its six gyroscopes when one of them failed on Friday. The telescope was launched in 1990. After the gyro failure at the weekend, controllers tried to switch on a different one, but that was found to be malfunctioning. That leaves Hubble with only two fully functional gyros. At any given time, Hubble needs three of its gyroscopes to work for optimal efficiency.

141 comments

  1. But.. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The Earth is flat. You only need 2 gyros to point oneself in 2D space.

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    1. Re:But.. by olsmeister · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's flat, not planar you clod. There is a bottom. That's where the little people live.

    2. Re:But.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please don't, there are people on the internet who won't recognise your sarcasm and just spread more stupidity.

    3. Re:But.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      everybody and their dog knows its flat. since 2015.

    4. Re:But.. by CapS · · Score: 4, Funny

      I thought that's where the turtles are.

    5. Re:But.. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 2

      ... and the mole people. Don't forget the mole people.

      Just as soon as you overlook the mole people, that's when they strike. Then we're looking at a worldwide shortage of turnips and beets, and you'll have your own lack of vigilance to thank.

      Won't you please think of the turnips and beets?!

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    6. Re:But.. by blindseer · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Earth is flat. You only need 2 gyros to point oneself in 2D space.

      That's true but they need 3 because the telescope can rotate, which messes with the image. There's X, Y, and rotation, that need to be controlled for. They can operate with a single gyro but that means they can't stop rotations, and in fact use the rotation to their advantage to reposition the gyro for controlling X and Y alternately as rotation puts the gyro in the proper plane. Hubble launched with 4 gyros, meaning it had a spare from the start. With the first gyro failure they simply lost the spare. With the second failure they lost the ability to control rotation and/or ability to position with as much speed and accuracy. Going down to one means they can still move but very very slowly.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    7. Re:But.. by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      RTFS: They launched with 6, 4 have now failed.

    8. Re: But.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did pirate radio have something to do with this?

    9. Re:But.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's an illusion. There's only 4 because it's in 2-D space. Your 3-D thinking mind creates the illusion of there being 6.

    10. Re:But.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this moderated informative? The post is in reply to a claim that the Earth is flat and makes no refutation of that. The description of how this works might have some basis on reality but it sounds like it's just a bunch of speculation and made up pseudo-science. I think people got duped on this.

    11. Re:But.. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      In other news, it turns out the gyros have been broken all along and those pictures of spiral galaxies are actually star shaped.

    12. Re:But.. by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      I thought that's where the turtles are.

      Nope, it's elephants all the way down.

    13. Re:But.. by Toad-san · · Score: 1

      Naw, it's turtles from there on down.

    14. Re:But.. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Modded down. The joke cannot have been funny enough. I will try better next time. I will live with the shame forever.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  2. Ouch by atrex · · Score: 2

    This could be pretty bad news for NASA if they can't manage to jury rig something. Hubble's successor, the James Webb Space Telescope, isn't scheduled for launch until 2021. Though I suppose they could try to do another repair mission on the Hubble like they did in '93 and four other times since (the last was 2009), but, that was back before they retired the space shuttle in 2011. Doing another maintenance run on the Hubble is probably beyond the spec/capabilities of the first manned SpaceX launch, currently planned for mid 2019.

    1. Re:Ouch by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A service call to Hubble is out of scope for the first several SpaceX manned launches. It doesn't provide the same capabilities as the Shuttle at all.

      But Elon might actually offer a solution, or at least offer to offer one.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    2. Re:Ouch by GrumpySteen · · Score: 0, Troll

      And then he'll question the sexuality of anyone who offers an alternate solution.

    3. Re:Ouch by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      Doing another maintenance run on the Hubble is probably beyond the spec/capabilities of the first manned SpaceX launch, currently planned for mid 2019.

      According to this article from January 2018, the earliest SpaceX is expected to fly humans is December 2019. Boeing expects to fly February 2020.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    4. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Musk's solution will be another metal dick, on an extension cord from his other metal dick.

    5. Re:Ouch by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Funny

      But Elon might actually offer a solution, or at least offer to offer one.

      I've heard that he has a spare one-man capsule that was designed specifically for rescue missions.

    6. Re:Ouch by rojash · · Score: 0

      After which he would call them pedos.

    7. Re:Ouch by pahles · · Score: 2

      On October 4, 2018, https://blogs.nasa.gov/commerc... talks about June 2019 as target for a crewed demo mission for SpaceX, August 2019 for Boeing.

      --
      Sig?
    8. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      relax, that was the weeeeeeed talkin

    9. Re:Ouch by bobbied · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Doing another maintenance run on the Hubble is probably beyond the spec/capabilities of the first manned SpaceX launch, currently planned for mid 2019.

      I fear you are correct. Hubble was/is at the extreme limits of the shuttle system's ability and the last trip was risky enough that they almost didn't do it. Now we have no shuttle.

      I don't doubt Space X could engineer some solution to service Hubble, but the timeframe it would take to develop the capability is likely to be longer than the scheduled replacement's arrival. To do this Hubble service thing, you need to first catch it in orbit (the shuttle used an astronaut on the robot arm for this) so you can work on it, then open it up and move around some large chunks of delicate gear from some kind of cargo area.

      Given the age of Hubble, the cost of such a rescue mission and the projected replacement of the system already scheduled, I'm guessing they use Hubble as best they can with what's left that is still working. It's been a great achievement, but I don't think it's worth it at this point to try and fix the thing. Besides, we all knew the day would come when Hubble would work no more. It's sad, but the time may be closer than we would like to admit.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:Ouch by Raenex · · Score: 0

      Hubble is probably beyond the spec/capabilities of the first manned SpaceX launch

      We can land probes on comets and asteroids. Surely we can land a gyroscope attached to a magnet and stick it on the Hubble?

    11. Re: Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Elon might actually offer a solution, or at least offer to offer one.

      I've heard that he has a spare one-man capsule that was designed specifically for rescue missions.

      Yeah maybe, but I doubt the Hubble would fit in such a thing.

    12. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just to fix the Hubble he wont.

    13. Re:Ouch by JohnStock · · Score: 2

      Hubble is not just a NASA project. It would be bad for ESA too.

    14. Re:Ouch by JohnStock · · Score: 1

      You know I was thinking the same. In 2018 we should be using semi-automated or at least remote controlled robots for things like this.

    15. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but does it have wireless IO that would work well that way.. or possibly physical? I thought it was a good idea as soon as i read it. but is it feasible.

      --Highdude702(mods)

    16. Re:Ouch by Hadlock · · Score: 2

      It wouldn't surprise me if they devised a device with several gyros that used the soft grapple "docking adaptor" they installed on the service mission to replace the gyros. The Dragon is not rated for more than X time in space but it could be uprated filled with gyros, 10 gyros would weigh substantially less than an ISS payload; and then is docked to the rear of the hubble (soft grapple). AFAIK the optics and solar are fine, it is just the gyros that are prone to failure. They could also re-boost the hubble while they're up there. Worst case scenario the new gyros don't work and they disengage and try again. Dragons are less than $200 million to launch these days.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    17. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say just double down on the James Webb scope, and get it out sooner. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. But it SHOULD work that way!

    18. Re: Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not broken.... I just borrowed it to spy on the neighbors. I will give it back shortly.

    19. Re: Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your best bet would be to make friends with the Air Force and see if they can use the x 37 which is originally designed to fix satellites

    20. Re:Ouch by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      Given the age of Hubble, the cost of such a rescue mission and the projected replacement of the system already scheduled, I'm guessing they use Hubble as best they can with what's left that is still working.

      It does make sense to spend the dollars if it'll reap, say, a $billion in positive public relations for a private contractor that pulled it off.

      If only there were a space flight contractor in need of some of that.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    21. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Elon's defense, the pedo guy insulted him first.

    22. Re:Ouch by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      Why would it be out of spec? Dragon can be launched on lunar free return trajectory, that's way beyond what is needed to meet up with Hubble and way beyond what Shuttle could have done. Downsides would be that there is no airlock, so entire capsule would have to be depressurized for EVA, but that's an inconvenience not a technical showstopper. There is also no robot arm, so manual capture required, but that's very much doable, I think they did the same with shuttle at least once, with a completely defunct and free spinning satellite no less. With 2/6 gyros functional on Hubble, it should be very much doable. The entire thing might be demanding on crew, and a bit reminiscent of early days of space tech, but very much within technical spec of Dragon and Falcon. Tho Dragon 2 is not yet qualified, or even had a maiden flight, so there is that. For what it's worth, the mission could probably also be done with a Soyuz. It's not that the mission would be exceptionally demanding on the spacecraft, it's that Shuttle was an exceptionally large and heavy thing to lug all the way to orbit and even harder to reenter with from high up, so anything higher than ISS, was stretching it's capabilities.

    23. Re:Ouch by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      I don't doubt that someone could create such a device that could do that; however, the problem would be how it would interface with Hubble's systems. I don't think it was every designed with an external port that would work. The last few repair missions involved replacing parts of Hubble's internal systems by opening panels that required human dexterity.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    24. Re:Ouch by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      I think they have launched something like that as one of their secondary payloads, not their own design, but but one of their customers had a satellite life extender system. The idea being, that the system would dock or grapple an out of fuel comms sat and have enough fuel for stationkeeping on board to extend its service life. Such a thing would necessarily have full orientation control, so there you go, also a fix for broken gyros.

    25. Re:Ouch by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Sierra Nevada has a better chance of servicing Hubble than SpaceX. Their Dream Chaser vehicle has the required attributes, with the only drawback being that it doesn't exist yet.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    26. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "[James Webb] isn't scheduled for launch until 2021"

      I wouldn't bet on it launching then either. We've seen this show before, and its disturbing that we still bother to buy tickets to the next show. If I remember correctly it has blown past about 4 delivery dates/budgets so far. Each time asking for "just" a few more years and another billion or two. I doubt a servicing mission would be very feasible with any of the current manned vehicles in development as none are really equipped for EVAs, even Orion would probably need some kind of large and expensive module to support a servicing mission. If we needed to replace Hubble I think the NRO has offered NASA some spares they have which could be modified to be replacement.

    27. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Duh,...bluetooth!

    28. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just grab her by the pussy, that's easy.

      Working on her so you can pump your load in her... that's the hard part.

    29. Re:Ouch by Miamicanes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's even worse than that. JWST isn't a real REPLACEMENT for Hubble. It'll be able to do things that Hubble can't, but there are even MORE things Hubble can do that JWST won't ever be able to do.

      The fact is, we don't have the ability to launch a new satellite as big or as heavy as Hubble... and AFAIK, there are no rockets even under development that will be capable of delivering something as physically BIG as Hubble (or the existing ISS modules) into orbit. Hubble and the existing ISS modules are all we have, and all we're LIKELY to have for DECADES. They're literally irreplaceable within the span of our lives, and as such, deorbiting them is, IMHO, wantonly reckless and irresponsible. If Hubble's telescope functionality dies before we have the ability to send a refurbishment mission, we should be ready to DO the deorbiting mission on 18 months' notice... but always and only as a last-ditch "plan B" if we don't get the ability to launch a robotic or manned servicing & refurbishment mission first.

      From what I understand, if Hubble failed completely and became totally uncontrolled tomorrow, it would be at least a decade before it fell far enough to present imminent risk of uncontrolled reentry. If we made even a token attempt to send a robotic mission to boost it into a higher orbit, we could easily add another decade to that. SpaceX might not be ready to fly a refurbishment mission to Hubble within the next 3-5 years... but it probably COULD be ready to do it 6-10 years from now (if it had a firm commitment from NASA), and will probably be capable of doing it within 10-15 years regardless of what NASA does (and knowing Musk, would probably invoke maritime salvage law & refurbish Hubble ITSELF as a commercial venture if NASA couldn't/wouldn't do it).

      Frankly, I think 90% of NASA's sense of deorbiting-urgency is precisely BECAUSE they'd rather see things like the ISS and Hubble get intentionally destroyed than risk allowing someone else to metaphorically grab them from the curb before the garbage truck arrives.

    30. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would they need to? Have two seperate systems, and tie them together in software on the ground. IE: Dock a cargo dragon with gyros inside - They can control those gyros separately to force the hubble into the proper orientation.

    31. Re:Ouch by quenda · · Score: 3, Informative

      A service call to Hubble is out of scope

      Hubble had Servicing Missions in 1993, 1997, 1999, 2002, and 2009.
      The 1999 and 2009 missions replaced the gyroscopes. So this was expected.

      The Hubble was being built around the time the Commodore VIC20 and Sinclair ZX80 were released, though the launch was long delayed.
      So maybe it is time to retire it. Perhaps a small ceremony and fireworks display over the South Pacific.

    32. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need an airlock. You merely need to keep the astronaut alive in a spacesuit for a few days. Perhaps need to design a system to suck the air out of the capsule, to avoid the propulsive force of the air going into vaccuum.

    33. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would it need to interface with Hubble at all?
      1. From the ground, command the gyro device to align Hubble.
      2. From the ground, command Hubble to take a picture.
      3. Rinse and repeat.

      Doesn't really seem like rocket science to me :-)

    34. Re:Ouch by epine · · Score: 1

      This could be pretty bad news for NASA if they can't manage to jury rig something.

      What's the pressing demand for 100% space telescope operational continuity?

      Are there experiments in progress which demand a precisely timed sequence of images updates, no frame loss allowed?

      Or are you just projecting your personal wrath over YouTube frame drop after you shelled out for a $5000 graphics card? (Never mind $10 billion.)

    35. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't this the sort of thing the X37B was made for? It is highly maneuverable, changes orbit, is rumored to be designed to mess with enemy satellites, etc. Outfit the cargo bay with some spare gyros, the robotic arm its cargo bay was designed to accommodate, and some cameras, and see if the Chair Force is up to doing remote-control repairs.

    36. Re:Ouch by Last_Available_Usern · · Score: 1

      ...and knowing Musk, would probably invoke maritime salvage law & refurbish Hubble ITSELF as a commercial venture if NASA couldn't/wouldn't do it.

      This is key. The Hubble has immense value. Even if Musk wouldn't get mountains of accolades just for fixing it, the ROI for doing so on his own nickel would more than pay for itself as long as it doesn't suffer another failure.

    37. Re:Ouch by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Well, you are entitled to your opinion. However, I think the new observatory has a better ROI in the PR world than Hubble would going forward. Hubble was great while it lasted but I think the time is fast approaching when it will make sense to retire it and not try to revive it.

      I do feel bad about it, but my feelings of nostalgia about a 20 year old epic achievement aside, it may be time to accept that Hubble is getting VERY old for something in orbit and we can now capture similar resolution images from the ground and soon will have another advancement in orbit. That billion dollars might be better spent on other things at this point. Just let Hubble continue to do what it can.

      Of course, if you want to spend the money, I get why, I just don't agree it's the right thing to do.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    38. Re: Ouch by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Tie them with software on the ground? That would work if the lag between sensory input and reaction has no or little effect. But I suspect it does.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    39. Re: Ouch by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      The problem I would see is the size of the Hubble relative to the extender. It's not the weight but any thrust to the side would cause a fishtail motion and not very precise. Now the Hubble has a grapple location meant for an external rocket to push it into deep space when it reaches end-of-life. It however is not meant for fine tuned controls that Hubble needs for current operations.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    40. Re:Ouch by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I think 90% of NASA's sense of deorbiting-urgency is precisely BECAUSE they'd rather see things like the ISS and Hubble get intentionally destroyed than risk allowing someone else to metaphorically grab them from the curb before the garbage truck arrives.

      I think you're wrong. It's because they could build and send in replacements, multiple in the case of Hubble, quicker and cheaper than doing manned missions to refurbish the old stuff in orbit. Anybody who could go up there and grab them, would be able to put a newer better one up instead for less money.

      Car analogy: It's like the old truck. It was a good truck, and when it runs, it still does its base job. However, it's old and repairs and maintenance are getting more and more frequent and more costly. So much that you could buy a new truck with better carrying and towing capacity (and new seats and stereo) along with better gas milage for what you would have to put into the old truck to keep it running in the time a new truck would still be under warranty.

    41. Re:Ouch by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      Hubble has 4 reaction wheels and 6 gyros, giving it (when they're all working) amazing pointing accuracy.

      Two of the gyros were replaced in the first servicing mission.

      One of the reaction wheels was replaced in the second service mission.

      The third service mission had to be split into two parts - 3A and 3B (I have the 3A mission gimme cap here on my desk) - and 3A replaced all six gyros, as four had failed, including the two replaced during SM1. Having only two gyros caused NASA to rewrite the software, which was originally written to use a minimum of three gyros for science operations.

      Service mission 4 installed another set of gyros, intended to last until 2014.

    42. Re:Ouch by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      The Martian? I'm trying to remember which movie this is from.

    43. Re:Ouch by atrex · · Score: 1

      Or are you just projecting your personal wrath over YouTube frame drop after you shelled out for a $5000 graphics card? (Never mind $10 billion.)

      I have no idea what you're talking about. I simply commented on the sad state of affairs of an important, unique, and historic piece of science equipment potentially becoming permanently inoperable with no replacement or potential fix viable in the immediate future. Sure, it was only a matter of time until it broke down, but, at least the last time it broke down we still had a shuttle they could send up to fix it.

      Or maybe you're one of those who think pure science is a complete waste of money and everything that doesn't have an immediate quantifiable return on investment should be outlawed.

    44. Re:Ouch by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      It's from the sure-to-be upcoming movie "Thai Football Team Cave Field Trip".

    45. Re:Ouch by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      Doh! I completely forgot about that nonsense.

    46. Re:Ouch by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      The Shuttle was uniquely suited to these missions.

      I doubt the Orion, Dragon, or Starliner have the necessary capabilities.

      You know, the US has only made 4 different manned flight space capsules ever... Interesting. The Russians, really only 3. The Chinese, one. India plans one, and we have three new ones in competition. Russia has one planned also... Not sure the Iranian project is serious.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    47. Re: Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I look forward to the launch of the JWST on the 20th anniversary of Hubble's end-of-life deorbiting.

    48. Re: Ouch by JohnStock · · Score: 1

      Why is somebody as dumb as you on /.? The Hubble Space Telescope is a joint ESA/NASA project http://sci.esa.int/hubble/

    49. Re:Ouch by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Other than the precise control that's needed for, say, a space telescope, I can't see how that would work.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    50. Re:Ouch by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Better analogy: you own a big, huge, old London-style double-decker tourist bus on a small, remote island. Say, somewhere in the South Pacific. Twenty five years ago, the bus was delivered to the island by a unique amphibious cargo ship capable of surviving the high seas, rolling up onto the beach, and driving it off before departing to haul big things to other remote islands.

      The bus is now old and decrepit... but amphibious ships like the one used to deliver your bus no longer exist... they had some really bad accidents (partly due to bad management decisions), were declared to be unsafe, and quickly retired with a huge backlog of scheduled deliveries that are now impossible to make. On the bright side, the island now has twice-daily low-cost jet service to the mainland... great if you're a passenger or need to ship a small package, little consolation if what you REALLY need to ship is a big, huge double-decker bus that won't FIT inside a modern jet.

    51. Re: Ouch by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Update: I was wrong about maritime law & salvage rights. Apparently, the US isn't a signatory to the UN treaties governing maritime salvage, and takes the position that a) sunken US government ships that sink on the high seas remain the exclusive property of the US in perpetuity and are never implicitly abandoned; b) salvage rights to ships that sink in US waters remains with the original owners in perpetuity... and solely belongs to the US government if the wreck gets salvaged by anyone else; and c) jurisdiction over manmade objects in space remains exclusively with the nation-state associated with its launch in perpetuity.

      So even IF Hubble were in uncontrolled freefall, if SpaceX fixed Hubble on its own, NASA would (at best) say, "Thanks for fixing Hubble at your expsnse... it's still ours." And SpaceX & its employees *could* conceivably be prosecuted on federal charges for touching Hubble without permission if the feds were determined to show the world that no good deed ever goes unpunished.

      TL/DR: The US explicitly rejects most modern international maritime law, and in any case asserts that maritime law does NOT extend to space.

  3. Hobbled Hubble? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

    It's still early to talk of a rescue mission, but I'm surprised TFA doesn't even mention it. Of course, without the shuttle, and with SpaceX and Boeing unlikely to fly humans until sometime around 2020, It's likely to remain hobbled [wah wah] when the Webb telescope is launched in 2019. So fixing it will depend on the cost/benefit for what Hubble can do compared to Webb.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    1. Re:Hobbled Hubble? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      Whoops, make that 2021, not 2019 for the Webb launch. Still, I'll bet Webb is in orbit before Hubble is fixed, if it ever is.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    2. Re:Hobbled Hubble? by Raenex · · Score: 2

      Whoops, make that 2021, not 2019 for the Webb launch.

      Who can blame you? Hard to keep up with every time they delay the Webb launch for another 2-3 years.

    3. Re:Hobbled Hubble? by tri44id · · Score: 2

      And once the JWST gets unfolded, if it succeeds at unfolding at all, you won't have to worry about repair/refurbish missions, even if SLS or BFR could take a crew out to its location. Its coolant tanks aren't designed to be refilled, and parts that are bolted into place on the Hubble are glued permanently. It would take a saw or a torch to remove anything you wanted to replace. After a few years of awesome science, it becomes just another metallic asteroid. Could its mirror and sunshade justify a salvage mission? Doesn't seem likely to me.

      --
      Taxation without representation is tyranny! Statehood for DC, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands & Pacific Territories!
    4. Re:Hobbled Hubble? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      That seems an utter travesty, especially in light of the burgeoning reusable rocket industry that promises to rapidly make servicing things in space routine. (really, doing anything in space)

      Though... Remove the sunshield, and you should be able to fit the whole thing inside the bay of a BFS cargo ship with meters..ish to spare (in diameter, far more in length). If they make that space pressurizable, the whole giant thing could be captured, rebuilt at leisure in a spacious pressurized environment over the course of weeks or months, and then released to resume its mission. Hmm, though a pleasantly warm atmosphere would probably destroy the delicate calibration between mirrors that all those sun shields are there to provide the thermal stability to ensure. Still... you *might* be able to find a way to do it, even if it means working in vacuum, but still at least in the enclosed security of the cargo bay.

      The more I think about it, the more I think it's a brilliant idea to use a BFS as a satellite refurbishment workshop. All you'd really need is independently pressurizable living quarters and a well-equipped workshop. You could no doubt make the whole thing into a module (or collection of them) that could be quickly mounted in the cargo bay when on a servicing mission.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  4. That's not FAIR! by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 2

    Hubble Telescope Hit By Mechanical Failure

    That's not fair... that's not fair at all. There was time now. There was... was all the time I needed. That's not fair! That's not fai-ai-airrrr!

    --
    Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
    1. Re:That's not FAIR! by Immerman · · Score: 1

      And that's why you should never spend our lunch break reading in a heavily shielded bank vault. The universe is always on the look out for new and exciting ways to mess with you!

      I always wondered though - did the guy really not have a second pair of glasses? Or know where the optometrist was located to find another pair that was at least adequate enough? I suppose really the over-dramatic response was likely shock as the reality of the situation finally found a chink in his carefully constructed emotional armor. Or just dramatic license, but one must never say such things.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  5. bearings by xonen · · Score: 1

    Iirr the gyroscopes all have issues with their gyroscopes' bearings, that were not discovered in earth-based duration tests.

    Cosmic rays erode the surface of the metal ball bearings, causing them to fail eventually way before their predicted life span.

    They changed to ceramic bearings since which solved the problem.

    Source: some youtube vid i saw a while ago.

    --
    A glitch a day keeps the bugs away.
    1. Re:bearings by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Iirr the gyroscopes all have issues with their gyroscopes' bearings, that were not discovered in earth-based duration tests. Cosmic rays erode the surface of the metal ball bearings, causing them to fail eventually way before their predicted life span. They changed to ceramic bearings since which solved the problem.

      They've found several things:

      One lesson learned was that gyros assembled using pressurized oxygen to deliver suspension fluid were prone to failure due to electric wire corrosion. Gyros are now assembled using pressurized nitrogen.

      But ultimately all the gyros were replaced in the final service mission in 2009, before that they were also replaced in 1999. These new ones were supposed to last longer but it seems ~10 years is still all we get. I wonder if the Dragon can be retrofitted for spacewalks.. I don't think you could use the same airlock as for docking, they'd need full vacuum spacesuits and June next year is just supposed to be a test flight...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:bearings by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      I believe Scott Manly did a youtube video about it.

    3. Re:bearings by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the Dragon can be retrofitted for spacewalks.. I don't think you could use the same airlock as for docking, they'd need full vacuum spacesuits and June next year is just supposed to be a test flight...

      There is no room for an airlock so the whole craft would need to be depressurized like the Apollo era craft.

  6. James Webb ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... and hurry.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:James Webb ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe they should continue to concentrate on getting it right, considering that it will be positioned in a Lissajou path around the Earth-Sun L2 point. That is out of range for any servicing mission in the near future, especially given that it is not designed for that.

    2. Re:James Webb ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 2, Informative

      How embarrassing.

      Lissajous curves are the family of curves described by [...] parametric equations ...

      Go away.

      The James Webb Space Telescope will not be in orbit around the Earth, like the Hubble Space Telescope is - it will actually orbit the Sun, 1.5 million kilometers (1 million miles) away from the Earth at what is called the second Lagrange point or L2.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    3. Re:James Webb ... by mhotchin · · Score: 3

      If you are trying to refute the GP, you are doing so very, very badly. The G.P. is correct, and nothing you said actually contradicts him. The only thing he said incorrectly was that the craft will orbit the point - it doesn't, it orbits the sun, but it does move around the Lagrange point in a semi-stable manner.

      Orbits are, *of course* curves described by parameters. It so happens that in the co-ordinate system centered on the Lagrange point, and aligned to the sun, that the movement of spacecraft around the Lagrange point is, in fact, described by a Lissajou curve.

      Since this isn't a scientific paper, I'll direct the curious here:
      That wiki thing

    4. Re:James Webb ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissajous_orbit

    5. Re:James Webb ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How embarrassing.

      In practice, any orbits around Lagrangian points L1, L2, or L3 are dynamically unstable, meaning small departures from equilibrium grow over time.[2] As a result, spacecraft in these Lagrangian point orbits must use their propulsion systems to perform orbital station-keeping. Although they are not perfectly stable, a modest effort of station keeping keeps a spacecraft in a desired Lissajous orbit for a long time.

      Oh my.

    6. Re:James Webb ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      The only thing he said incorrectly was that the craft will orbit the point - it doesn't ...

      Thanks.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    7. Re:James Webb ... by BigDukeSix · · Score: 0

      You are a fucking idiot.

    8. Re:James Webb ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Not as much as I used to be.

      I'm 72 and I had enough drugs back in the 60s dude (or dudette as may apply) so Viagra's out, but thanks for the kudos.

      You're dope yersef.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  7. Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do we really need Hubble that badly anymore?
    Apparently adaptive optics technology is allowing ground-based telescopes to surpass Hubble's capability.
    https://www.airspacemag.com/sp...

    Rather than firing up an expensive space mission (I remember each shuttle mission was $500M), would it genuinely be better to just take that money and build or retrofit a ground-based telescope with adaptive optics? A telescope that you could easily maintain thereafter?

    This doesn't help with wavelengths of light that don't go through Earth's atmosphere, but that's not what Hubble does. Seems like we could do without Hubble nowadays.

    --PeterM

    1. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That article is mostly not saying what you think it says. AO on Earth "can" make "better" images than the Hubble, under some conditions, for some relatively nearby targets. There's no way it can do many other observations however.

    2. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the biggest advantages that an orbital telescope can provide (beyond avoiding atmospheric distortion) is a stationary platform for targetting distant objects and long exposures. Any telescope on Earth is rotating at a constant rate of 1 revolution per day, as well as being plagued by the many vibrations traveling through the Earth itself. You can build it on a moving platform so that servos keep it focused on a specific point in the sky, at least while that point is above the horizon, but then you introduce all the vibrations of the tracking mechanism, which makes it impossible to take clear images of fine detail. Rather like trying to use a high-power telescope while holding it in your hands - all you'll ever be able to see is a blur.

      An orbital telescope though stays focused where you point it. It orbits the planet, but the parallax from that is irrelevant over long interstellar distances, and it only takes a little help from vibration-damped precision gyroscopes to keep gravitational fluctuations, solar wind, etc. from causing it to start spinning.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by JohnStock · · Score: 1

      In concrete terms, ESO/ESA VLT surpassed Hubble by quite some margin. But if we can fix Hubble with a *relatively* cheap robotic mission, it would make economic and scientific sense.

    4. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      While those are all problems to be contended with they all have engineering solutions which have resulted in images surpassing the quality of Hubble's results. The remaining issue is access time due to the sun being up for a portion of the day, and weather ruining some nights.

      https://www.popularmechanics.c...

    5. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Again - those are photos of nearby objects - they don't need long exposures. Neptune is practically right next door, and even NGC 6388 is still within the Milky Way (and they don't share a Hubble photo of that for comparison - here's one that seems to show far more detail: https://www.spacetelescope.org... )

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Again - those are photos of nearby objects - they don't need long exposures.

      I see you've not taken photos of these objects before. They most definitely do need long exposures, and the wonderful thing about space is you can take those exposures whenever you want and work them together afterwards.

      Also while you're comparing things remember that you're comparing decades of experience from the Hubble with "first light" from the adaptive optics in the article.

      Engineering solutions exist and will make the hubble obsolete. They will be dwarfed by the James Webb though.

    7. Re:Ground based telescopes with adaptive optics by Immerman · · Score: 1

      They may indeed soon make the Hubble obsolete in most respects, which is a good thing since it frees the Hubble up for the things where they can't compete (assuming it lives that long). But the technology *today* isn't quite there yet. And I seriously doubt any ground-based telescope will ever be suitable for doing spectral analysis of exoplanet atmospheres. Nor be able to compete with orbital stability for photographing things near the limits of the observable universe. Not even against telescopes 30 years older. And unless something untoward happens to disrupt the rekindled space race, once the Webb launches ground based telescopes will never again enjoy such a huge technology gap.

      It is an incredible thing they're doing though. *So* much research is becoming far more accessible, as ground based telescopes remain much more affordable. And much (most?) of astronomy has no need to image objects outside our own galaxy.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  8. I'm confused, how many gyroscopes are working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Hubble had been operating with four of its six gyroscopes"

    Gyroscope count: 4

    "...when one of them failed on Friday."

    4 - 1 = 3
    Gyroscope count: 3

    "After the gyro failure at the weekend, controllers tried to switch on a different one..."

    3 + 1 = 4
    Gyroscope count: 4

    "...but that was found to be malfunctioning."

    4 - 1 = 3
    Gyroscope count: 3

      "That leaves Hubble with only two fully functional gyros.'

    But the count is 3, isn't it?

    "At any given time, Hubble needs three of its gyroscopes to work for optimal efficiency."

    Then we should be good to go.

    What am I missing?

    1. Re:I'm confused, how many gyroscopes are working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What am I missing?

      A competent reporter.

      It's just stupid space stuff; not the Trump bashing they were trained for so they get all mixed up.

    2. Re:I'm confused, how many gyroscopes are working? by Mascot · · Score: 1

      Bad summary, as usual. Reading TFA it seems they only operate with the number of gyros required, keeping the remainders in reserve to drag out the lifetime of the HST. The scenario looks to be that one failed, and when they tried to bring the (final) spare online, it turned out to be misbehaving as well.

    3. Re:I'm confused, how many gyroscopes are working? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hubble had 6 gyroscopes originally, and all 6 were replaced during the last servicing, but two of those had already failed. Those aren't coming back. (6-2=4. Total.)

      3 of the 4 remaining functional gyroscopes were actually in use, as required for optimal performance, with one left powered down as a backup in case one of the remaining three failed. Like hard drives, the chance of failure is much greater when they're active. (4=3 active + 1 backup)

      One of the active gyroscopes failed (3-1=2), so they tried to power up the backup, but that failed as well (2+0=2)

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    4. Re:I'm confused, how many gyroscopes are working? by mentil · · Score: 1

      I see these gyroscopes are made by Seagate.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  9. Summary's maths doesn't add up by Lanthanide · · Score: 1

    >> Hubble had been operating with four of its six gyroscopes when one of them failed on Friday

    So 4 -1 = 3.

    >> After the gyro failure at the weekend, controllers tried to switch on a different one,

    So 3 + 1 = 4

    >> but that was found to be malfunctioning.

    So 4 -1 = 3

    >> That leaves Hubble with only two fully functional gyros.

    3 != 2

    1. Re:Summary's maths doesn't add up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there weren't really 4 operating when the failure happened; one of the other four was also malfunctioning and this was discovered when they tried to switch over to it.

      It's poorly written. A reasonable interpretation of this poor writing is likely as not to come up with the wrong answer. Not a comprehension issue at all.

    2. Re:Summary's maths doesn't add up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean:

      4 - 1failed -1malfunctioning backup = 2. This should. The telescope was launched in 1990. not be difficult, you failed reading comprehension there. It's true, 3 does not equal 2.

    3. Re:Summary's maths doesn't add up by Nkwe · · Score: 1

      It is still confusing as you state it. The following would make more sense (assuming being correct):

      It was assumed that there were four good gyros of which three were in operation and one was on stand by. One of the three in operation failed and when the stand by gyro was made active, it turned out not to be working. This left only two working gyros which is not enough (three are required.)

    4. Re:Summary's maths doesn't add up by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1
      No, it's

      Hubble had been operating with four of its six gyroscopes when one of them failed on Friday

      So, 6 - 1 == 4

      After the gyro failure at the weekend, controllers tried to switch on a different one, but that was found to be malfunctioning. That leaves Hubble with only two fully functional gyros

      And, 6 - 2 == 2

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    5. Re:Summary's maths doesn't add up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  10. Two gyros might work by g01d4 · · Score: 2

    That leaves Hubble with only two fully functional gyros. At any given time, Hubble needs three of its gyroscopes to work for optimal efficiency.

    I found this from thirteen years ago:

    In the meantime, engineers have continued planning for the two-gyro mode ... Tests of the mode, in which onboard computers only used data from two gyros, showed the resulting images were nearly identical to those taken with three gyros. One of scientists' main concerns about switching to a two-gyro system had been that âoejitterâ in the telescope would produce blurry images.

    1. Re:Two gyros might work by Immerman · · Score: 2

      The devil's in the details though. Literally in this case. "Nearly identical" is great for taking pictures of local planets creating images dozens or hundeds of pixels across, but when you're trying to photograph other stars or galaxies, which may only constitute a handful of pixels, then that "nearly" identical could show itself in a substantial amount of lost detail.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Two gyros might work by kiminator · · Score: 1

      I doubt it would work that well. With only two gyroscopes in operation, there's an axis along which rotation will not be measurable by either gyroscope. They can probably use other methods to figure out the approximate direction the satellite is pointing, so really big movements probably won't be a major problem. But it will likely be really hard to keep the satellite from drifting along that axis during any long exposures. Short exposures shouldn't pose a problem, but longer exposures definitely will.

    3. Re:Two gyros might work by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      The gyros are not for measuring the rotation, you can do that just fine by looking at the stars. The gyros are for actually moving the satellite, you turn the gyro one way, the satellite turns the other way, conservation of angular momentum. With only 2 gyros there is now one axis where rotation cannot be precisely controlled.

    4. Re:Two gyros might work by mentil · · Score: 1

      The devil's in the details though. Literally in this case.

      Damn Satan, messing with our space telescopes! Clearly we didn't sacrifice enough Slashdot virgins to appease him.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  11. An opportunity by PPH · · Score: 1, Funny

    The aliens can move their mother ship up from Pluto to a position behind the moon while we aren't looking.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:An opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that the aliens are waiting for Will Smith and Jeff Goldbloom to die before making their move. They know what a threat they can be from the "historical archives" that we've been broadcasting out into space since 1999 or so.

    2. Re:An opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      I think that the aliens are waiting for Will Smith and Jeff Goldbloom to die before making their move.

      Will Smith died in 2007 during test flight of some sort of human alien hybrid jet fighter.

    3. Re:An opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's okay though. The Spathi are cowards and will quickly retreat once more.

  12. Re:Yeah, I get it! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

    Kind of like you have 4 dicks in your mouth. ...

    Thanks for that imagery. My safe word is now "gyroscope".

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  13. Re:Yeah, I get it! by gerald.edward.butler · · Score: 1

    Laughing my ass off!

  14. automated rescue mission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    make up a rocket backpack for it that can latch onto it.

    maneuver it to the ISS where it can be grabbed by the arm.

    send a bunch of stuff up to the ISS for a complete refurb so it can last longer than waiting out the james web launch in 20 whenever.

    no reason why the ISS can't be used as a repair depot.

    1. Re:automated rescue mission by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      Why bother with ISS, if you can get something to latch onto it, then that something can carry gyros already and turn the telescope wherever it needs to point.

    2. Re:automated rescue mission by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      How would your proposed something interface with Hubble systems?

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  15. Safe Mode? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    I hope they rebooted it in Safe Mode With Networking. Otherwise we're screwed.

  16. Using Robots by aberglas · · Score: 1

    We should use robots. But we waste our budget putting men into the space station.

    And for the funds wasted on the Shuttle, there could be dozens of space telescopes. Well a few anyway.

    And the Webb would already be launched.

    1. Re:Using Robots by JohnStock · · Score: 2

      Yeah the shuttle was an absolute disaster financially. IIRC it was just a dick competition with Russia.

    2. Re:Using Robots by dryeo · · Score: 2

      It was a good idea, the Air Force made demands on performance (IIRC, flying over the USSR and returning to its launch site in one orbit) that crippled it for routine missions. As well the engines needed much more servicing then planned.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    3. Re:Using Robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also the tiles didn't work out that well either, they basically needed a full inspection every time.

  17. Bolt on gyros? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of replacing the internal gyros could a bolt on solution be developed? That might be more serviceable by robotics than the expense and risk of a manned mission.

    1. Re:Bolt on gyros? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      The problem would be how the gyros would interface with Hubble systems.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  18. Bigelow with a tug by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Need a ba330 ( or even a BA Sundancer ) with a tug to push it around. That could be used to move around leo, esp from ISS to another private space station.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  19. It's the Twilight Zone. You're overthinking it. by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

    And that's why you should never spend our lunch break reading in a heavily shielded bank vault. The universe is always on the look out for new and exciting ways to mess with you!

    I always wondered though - did the guy really not have a second pair of glasses? Or know where the optometrist was located to find another pair that was at least adequate enough? I suppose really the over-dramatic response was likely shock as the reality of the situation finally found a chink in his carefully constructed emotional armor. Or just dramatic license, but one must never say such things.

    You're overthinking it. That's usually my job, sir!

    Obviously that's a solution a smart, bookish fellow would have figured out, but perhaps that was the point of letting us see through his eyes, to understand he's so profoundly blind without his glasses, and even if he had a spare pair of glasses in his house, he might have trouble finding his way home to retrieve them. Then there's the fact that likely the ruins of his house would have been sitting on top of that spare pair, making them difficult to retrieve assuming he could find his way home, and manage to clear the wreckage of his house off them. Given the fragility of the pair he was wearing, do you really think they'd have survived?

    This is the Twilight Zone, recall, and I believe the whole point of the episode was to fuck with him. In that case, in the Burgess Meredith's character versus the world, the fight was fixed before they started filming. His character should be consoled though, with how much amusement we got contemplating his misery, and then seeing all the pop-cultural references to it, all the parodies, etc. This actually gives me an idea for Halloween, though.

    To beat the Twilight Zone in this fight, that character would have had to team up with another character Meredith played in the series, in "The Printer's Devil," and type out a headline on the machine reading something like, "Last Man On Earth Conveniently Finds Indestructible Spare Pair of Glasses After Nuclear Holocaust and Lives Happily Ever After."

    --
    Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  20. Re:It's the Twilight Zone. You're overthinking it. by Immerman · · Score: 1

    Hey, I saw the size of those shards - more than enough to see through to navigate the city. Or read a book, though the eye strain would be hideous.

    And please sir - one must never acknowledge the existence of "authors" or other such active gods in the universe, nor the constraints of "episode" they impose, lest the power of the "plot device" render all further discussion moot.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  21. They need to take it here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This place will sort it out:

    https://www.google.com.au/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x6b12bab50779377d%3A0x9131c64416910825!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s%2Fmaps%2Fplace%2Fgyros%2Bfix%2F%40-33.8691415%2C151.1190798%2C3a%2C75y%2C342.77h%2C90t%2Fdata%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sjyudiWsSXP_f_fGrgZrK-A*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x6b12bab50779377d%3A0x9131c64416910825!5sgyros%20fix%20-%20Google%20Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sjyudiWsSXP_f_fGrgZrK-A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiG_5bBy_jdAhWJZt4KHQdnCN4Qpx8wD3oECAsQDg

  22. Damn... by sad_ · · Score: 0

    They sure don't make them space telescopes like they used to.

    What about right to repair?

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
  23. Replacement needed? by Darkk · · Score: 1

    This piece of marvel been in orbit since the 1990s and amazing it lasted this long. But as with any equipment it will wear out. Without the shuttles it will be hard to perform any kind of major mechanical repairs so they may have to bite the bullet and plan on a replacement soon.