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TSMC, a Company Few Americans Know, is About To Dethrone Intel (bloomberg.com)

For more than 30 years, Intel has dominated chipmaking, producing the most important component in the bulk of the world's computers. That run is now under threat from a company many Americans have never heard of. From a report: Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. was created in 1987 to churn out chips for companies that lacked the money to build their own facilities. The approach was famously dismissed at the time by Advanced Micro Devices founder Jerry Sanders. "Real men have fabs," he quipped at a conference, using industry lingo for factories. These days, ridicule has given way to envy as TSMC plants have risen to challenge Intel at the pinnacle of the $400 billion industry. AMD recently chose TSMC to make its most advanced processors, having spun off its own struggling factories years before.

TSMC's threat to Intel reflects a sea change in chipmaking that's seen one company after another hire TSMC to manufacture the chips they design. Hsinchu-based TSMC has scores of customers, including tech giants Apple and Qualcomm, second-tier players like AMD, and minnows such as Ampere Computing. The explosion of components built this way has given TSMC the technical know-how needed to churn out the smallest, most efficient and powerful chips in the highest volumes.

"It's a once-in-a-50-year situation," said Renee James, the former No. 2 at Intel who heads startup Ampere. Her company is less than two years old and yet it's going after Intel's dominant server chip business. That Ampere thinks it can compete is a testament to stumbles by Intel, and TSMC's ability to benefit from those mistakes. It's been a decade since Intel faced major competition and its 90 percent revenue share in computer processing will again deliver record results this year. But some on Wall Street are concerned, and rivals are emboldened, because TSMC has a real chance to replace Intel as the best chipmaker in the business. Last year, the Taiwanese company amassed a bigger market value than its U.S. rival for the first time.

195 comments

  1. Chip Maker not Designer. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Informative

    Intel Designs and makes their own chips. TSMC just takes your designs and makes the chips. Which is a perfectly fine business model, but comparing Intel to them isn't really the same. As Intel puts a lot more R&D in designing the chips then making them.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope, most of the R&D work is in the fab, not the microcode. Making the chips work reliably is the hard part.

      AMD is currently shipping 7nm chips thanks to TSMC, Intel is stuck at 10nm.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re: Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your pants are shipping 7nm!!!!

    3. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by alvinrod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Intel isn't even on 10nm yet, at least not in terms of having mass production of shipping products (I'm not even going to count the pathetic i3 they trotted out and relegated to the bottom end of the Chinese market). However, if you look at the characteristics of each process, it becomes pretty clear that TSMC is (and historically always has been) playing loose with their naming. Not that it really matters anyways since it's just a marketing term. Intel's 10nm has roughly similar characteristics to TSMC's 7nm process. Even that is bad for Intel though, as historically they tended to have at least a year (and more often two years) lead over the competition.

    4. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      TSMC marketing likes to call it 7 nm, but it's not a real process node and the feature sizes are much greater than 7 nm. This is especially true of TSMC's first generation 7 nm (7FF), which is inferior to Intel 10 nm in many ways. Their later 7 nm (7HPC and 7FF+) finally improve to the point where they are competitive with Intel 10 nm (P1277) but not the CPU varient of 10 nm (P1276).

      Lots of R&D goes into designing new processor nodes, and improving the work flow to get designs to silicon. But please remember that fabless IP companies still spend a lot on R&D to come up with those designs and at that front-end they will optimize their designs based on guidance from the foundry. The decisions made on both the front and back ends make a real difference to an ASIC, SoC, or CPU.

    5. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      What on earth gave you that idea? You are suggesting Intel pays a handful of code monkeys more than they spend building and developing custom materials and hammering at cutting edge physics with insanely expensive built from scratch equipment and then retrofitting that into fabs? You must be kidding.

    6. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Jfetjunky · · Score: 2

      Not necessarily. The Fab is very important. It's the other half of the equation. You need the fab processes to create the devices necessary for your designs. However, Intel got to where they are not only because of their fab technology, but also their design technology. Creating design tools capable of handling nearly a billion transistors is no trivial matter. They did not exist. How do you standardized logic cells? How do you lay them out so they actually are capable of the speed (timing) you expect. How do you describe that. How do you test it? Design tools. And Intel was/is very good at it.

    7. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Hmm.....

      Think this might be a company worth buying stock in?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    8. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by sh00z · · Score: 2

      ... Intel puts a lot more R&D in designing the chips then making them.

      and yet, there's still not a chip on Intel's horizon that won't be susceptible to Spectre/Meltdown. Seems to me the R&D is pointed in the wrong direction.

    9. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by RhettLivingston · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are correct but you can compare Intel to TSMC plus its customers who are doing their own design work. The article did so.

      Historically, the company has squashed rivals using a research budget that dwarfed anything else in the industry. But TSMC’s approach is even undermining this advantage.

      While Intel still outguns TSMC in capital spending on new plants and equipment, the tables are turned when you combine the research budgets of TSMC customers like Qualcomm, Apple, Nvidia Corp. and Huawei Technologies Co.

      According to Goldman Sachs, the combined budgets of TSMC’s customers are not only larger than Intel but the gap is increasing. By 2020, they will spend almost $20 billion, according to its estimate, at least $4 billion more than Intel.

      IMO, the rise to dominance of TSMC's business model is inevitable and probably being driven by the industry's fall off of the Moore's Law curve.

      For decades, companies have been able to keep increasing the capabilities of their product by just buying the next-generation general-purpose chip. They got lazy in the process. I'd say this transition occurred in the '87-'97 time frame, a time when the need for engineers to design custom hardware plummeted in favor of buying COTS. But the general purpose approach is starting to fall short of the increases necessary to drive new consumer purchases.

      But innovation is still possible. Our laziness has created a deep untapped well of performance growth that can be had by equipping the domains to create domain specific designs. If we can reignite domain-specific engineering, many domains can achieve order of magnitude changes in performance by rolling their own designs.

      TSMC is enabling the larger of these domains to achieve purpose-built silicon designed by the domain's engineers for the domain.

    10. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Informative

      Intel's "10nm" is the same as 7nm. In fact, one of the dimensions is even 7nm, and they could have just measured from that side and called it 7nm. The numbers don't have meaning.

      You're conflating chip design with process design. Obviously, the company that owns the fab has to do the process design. And that is separate from the design of the chips.

      You were wrong as soon as you decided to start with the word "nope." Obviously, Intel does R&D for process, and for the chips they make, so they're doing a lot more R&D than a company that designs a comparable process, but not the chips. The difference in business models, and the fact that they're both competing on the latest generation of process, guarantees that Intel must be doing more R&D.

      The mystery in your comment is why you single out microcode to represent the whole chip design process.

    11. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean Intel doesn't want to go back to the performance of Intel processors of 1995 if they fixed Meltdown / Spectre in 2018? "Speculative execution" is a 20x perf gain. Not quite clear how much of the 20x per gain Intel would have to "peel off".

    12. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He got the idea due to his blatant FAILURE to support APK!

      If only he adored the hosts file engine as he should. Then wisdom would flow from him like pure water from a spring.

      Support APK today! Give him your mind, body, and soul. Only then will we have prosperity.

      ALL HAIL APK!

    13. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by sh00z · · Score: 1

      Speculative execution is not intrinsically vulnerable. Intel's implementation could be better, at a monetary cost that they do not seem willing to absorb.

    14. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      Speculative execution is not intrinsically vulnerable. Intel's implementation could be better....

      Maybe not "intrinsically vulnerable", but certainly very difficult to get right. I mean, ever other designer of high end speculative execution CPUs but AMD also had Meltdown problems, and all, Intel, AMD, ARM, IBM mainframes and POWER, are plagued with Spectre bugs, and almost certainly will be for a long time.

    15. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      If horizontal resolution is 10nm and vertical is 7nm, then calling it "8.5nm" may make more sense when doing quick and dirty comparing.

    16. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by gtall · · Score: 1

      Oh, have you been getting their memos? Do share!!

    17. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It is a three-dimensional shape, with orthogonal T sections. Any number you choose between 7 and 15 is equally valid and imprecise.

    18. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 1

      Intel's "10nm"

      What are you talking about exactly? Because no one has seen a successful run of this process yet. The only Cannon Lake part is a partially failed product with a disabled GPU/bad thermals/and no advantages over a comparable mobile Kaby Lake CPU.

    19. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wrong about AMD, they have zero meltdown problems and the way they handle it is quite elegant: return a dummy value on access violations and let the pipeline handle it at instruction retirement time. There was a serious paper about it recently.
      Really Meltdown is trivial to fix in hardware, spectre is another matter, especially with SMT. On the other hand, the effective bandwidth of meltdown can be high while spectre is always much lower.

    20. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      Sorry if I wasn't clear about AMD, I was saying everyone else, Intel, ARM, and IBM's two macroarchitectures, have Meltdown.

    21. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best measure I have read recently is transistor density.

      The Intel original 10nm was aiming for 105 million per square millimetre. While TSMC 7nm is at 95 or so.

    22. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by epine · · Score: 2

      Not that it really matters anyways since it's just a marketing term. Intel's 10 nm has roughly similar characteristics to TSMC's 7 nm process.

      Everyone who follows this even a little bit already knows that Intel's processes are the real thing, and everyone else's numbers are measured with parallax and a fat rubber ruler.

      Not that this normally matters, as you point out. It only matters when some idiot comes along crowing about how Intel has been "left in the dust".

      It's also the case that Intel is designing transistors to run fast and hot with extreme reliability (big profits from Xeon). If you're doing it right, "hot" is a synonym for "agile", meaning that your performance holds up on nearly every workflow. For this kind of agility, hot is the price you pay.

      Of course, there are oodles of workflows which can sacrifice one form of agility or another at almost zero performance cost, and these chips can certainly be designed to run cooler than Intel's chips while maintaining the same performance level for the chosen workflow.

      Key concept: one form of agility or another.

      The difficulty lies in exploiting Intel's excess heat production without Balkanizing your product line.

      Major cloud providers don't want to lock themselves into a compute architecture that's only good for today's compute fashion. Fast and hot Intel CPUs have a long track record of maintaining their performance come hell or high water (the later being the greater fright in the cloud business).

      The compute landscape heaves whenever a giant workflow such as machine learning calves off. One day your regular compute is huge into ML support, the next day it isn't, and now your regular compute is scrambling for new business. Does it make no sense at all for cloud providers to err on the side of hot and agile for their faddish default compute bucket? You'd quickly come to that conclusion if gobble up some of the ARM literature too readily.

      ARM is trying to be twice as good, but what calves off is usually 10x as good. Isn't that an old lesson?

      So Intel's legacy of hot and agile is not quite the impediment it's constantly made out to be (as it ever was), because the competitive frame isn't driven by tiny 2x improvements. It's rare that anyone's risk tolerance sidles quietly into a 2x disruptive improvement (even more rare when 10x disruptive improvements are also afoot).

      The bottom line here is that Intel's actual 10 nm transistors shouldn't be compared naively to someone else's putative 7 nm transistors, as if apples were the only fruit in the world.

      [*] English is renowned for it's depth of synonym baggage, but we simply don't have a good one for the geographically loaded "Balkanize". Besides, I've read about 1453 (and its sequellae), and it was certainly earned. Maybe we can finally retire this term after the Great Chinese Dissolution of 2096, their galling Social Credit System having finally run its natural course (move over Balkanization, here comes Sesamicide).

    23. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Obviously these are not comparable companies. We're comparing the efficiency of a vertically and horizontally integrated manufacturing models.

      TSMC has proved that sticking to your knitting is a more efficient business model than Intel's vertical integration. In the past it was always Intel's Wintel-fueled R&D budget that kept it one process node ahead, but the ARM wave gave TSMC a comparable budget and they focused it more efficiently. With TSMC now a business of comparable size and growing faster, there is little hope of Intel ever getting the lead back. Eventually Intel is just going to have to face reality and divest its fabs like AMD.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    24. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      I'm not even going to count the pathetic i3 they trotted out and relegated to the bottom end of the Chinese market.

      I don't think they even make it any more, they never did manage to get the defect density to a commercially viable level. I think they essentially just bulldozed that fab line and went back to square one.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    25. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      It seems that the modest 10% difference was enough to do Intel in, because they were right up against the limit of what deep UV can do. TSMC was a bit more conservative and that saved the day. I think. Because we don't really know yet that TSMC 7nm actually did ramp up successfully. Apple supposedly has weak sales for Iphone XS, but is it really because customers don't want it, or is it that Apple can't produce it?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    26. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Intel was/is very good at it.

      Not as good as a company that entirely specializes in it.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    27. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      dominance of TSMC's business model is inevitable and probably being driven by the industry's fall off of the Moore's Law curve

      Mostly driven by the mobile ARM market eclipsing the x86 PC market. But flattening of Moore's law is certainly a contributor, it means everybody is working with exactly the same fab equipment, it all comes from the same place.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    28. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is a perfectly fine business model

      For the Taiwanese. For everyone else you may as well hand over ownership of your business to them.

      And people want to know why Asia is competitive.... Maybe because when you hand everything over on a silver platter, they don't need you to make it anymore.

      "Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Too many people forget that blueprints / designs / IP in general can teach.

    29. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Intels 10nm is not even there that much (and already 4 years late), they produce a handful of very simple chips. TSMCs 7nm is pretty much the same ans Intels 10nm, both are marketing numbers anway. The main difference, TSMC is producing already millions of rather complex processors for Apple, Amd and NVidia and others while Intel had a stockholder launch 4 years late producing a handful of the simplest celerons they have with high failure rate and apu disabled to keep the stockholders calm.
      2019 will be interesting AMD then will release their 7nm line of processors which is currently produced and Intel wont have 10nm ready for their mainline of processors. This might be the first year in decades where AMD will get the performance crown over Intel in the absolute high end.

    30. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's true for AMD and ARM as well.

    31. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Wrong about AMD, they have zero meltdown problems"

      That's actually incorrect. They're vulnerable to a meltdown issue in 32 bit code.

    32. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Don't get confused about the difference between process and product.

    33. Re:Chip Maker not Designer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus you don't have to send your valuable specs to a third-party who probably has been hacked already.

  2. Re:um... yeah... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    This can be elevated with proper trade negotiations. Also for the most part if your chip designs are that sensitive for national security you better have your own Fab. Now the part that can be fixed with trade negotiations is to be sure that the company doesn't go ahead and make a spinoff product based off your IP.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  3. Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Intel saw how Microsoft got PC builders to beat each other up to carry the One True Operating System, and decided to avoid that racket by building their own parallel brand: Intel Inside (with music) so that CPUs from AMD, etc. didn't push their pricing down. It largely worked, to the point where almost everyone in America knows who Intel is: "it's the guys who powered my Compaq 10 years ago - dun dun dun DAHN".

    1. Re:Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its good to know AMD has never had a bug in their chips

    2. Re: Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AMD started out in x86 as a second source supplier. They had their own products, like the AM2900 family. But they got their license to clone x86 in the 8088 era when socket compatible second sources were very important to a lot of customers

    3. Re:Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

      When even Weird Al parodies you then I guess you know you are popular. =P

    4. Re:Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least AMD FPU units worked, and provided accurate calculations 100% of the time, not 97.48284 % of the time.

      bugs can be worked around, bad math, not so much.

      bugs happen, but its better to acknowledge them and provide fixes, than to claim "not everyone needs to do accurate math!"

    5. Re:Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Intel saw how Microsoft got PC builders to beat each other up to carry the One True Operating System

      The difference is, running macOS, Windows, Linux or OS/2 actually makes a difference compatibility wise. Intel vs. AMD, not really (there were some differences at the cutting edge, like SIMD, but most software waited until those were pretty standard anyway.)

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    6. Re:Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      >> Intel vs. AMD, not really

      Duh - that's why they did (or anyone else would) create their powerful "Intel Inside" brand: to create perceived value where there is little actual difference between themselves and their competitors. See also: Nike, McDonalds, Red Hat, etc.

    7. Re: Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure what you are talking about. I had a Pentium 60 with the FDIV bug. Intel replaced it free of charge. I didn't have to prove I needed to do accurate math or anything. I called them, gave them my info, and they immediately shipped me a replacement, no questions asked.

    8. Re: Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, that's not how it worked until the public backlash forced them to replace the chips, years in. Maybe it was so long ago that your old brain cells forgot this? Dunno what your problem is. Intel is a shitty sheisty company.

      If you enjoy being raped just say that.

    9. Re: Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This was in fact one of the reasons IBM chose the Intel 8088 over Motorola's vastly superior offerings at the time.

    10. Re:Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Id did at the time though. While Intel was considered the baseline for compatibility in PC's the other chipmakers who competed had varying levels of x86 compatibility. This isn't really an issue anymore due to some nasty lawsuits in the the 90's that resulted in Intel and AMD cross licensing a lot of the key IP behind x86. Before that AMD, Cyrix etc were all doing clean room reverse engineering which sometimes worked and sometimes didnt. Around 1997 if you didn't have an Intel CPU and you ran windows it was entirely possible some applications either crashed a lot of didnt work at all.

    11. Re: Intel was always primarily a marketing brand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And inflicted about 2 decades of segmented memory nightmare onto software developers, with abominations like near and far pointers.

  4. It's not only chips by bogaboga · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Last year, the Taiwanese company amassed a bigger market value than its U.S. rival for the first time.

    I am afraid the USA is [quickly] becoming an entity of little consequence. It's sad. When we lost manufacturing to China, folks here were ebullient, saying we surrendered cheap labor intensive jobs to China. They were happy that when it came to technology, we are "up there."

    From this piece, it now appears that we're not safe. All our president can do is to apply sanctions - which hardly work by the way.

    Given that china still owns a significant amount of our debt, we're surely in trouble.

    Not so long from now, Russia and China will introduce the C929 . Then our serious remaining industry will be threatened.

    Suggestion: Let's stop fomenting chaos in far away lands and concentrate on making the USA a beacon of prosperity once again.

    1. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The CR929 will be a huge shot in the arm for the passenger aircraft market. It's long overdue to give Airbus and Boeing some real competition. Competition is a good thing and spurs cost savings and innovation.

    2. Re:It's not only chips by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      Given that china still owns a significant amount of our debt, we're surely in trouble.

      That could actually be worse for them than it is for us.

      There's a saying: if I owe you a thousand dollars, I have a problem. If I owe you a trillion dollars, *you* have a problem.

    3. Re:It's not only chips by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Meh. Airbus is a European company, and competes head-to-head with Boeing. The difference between one main competitor and two is not nothing, but it also isn't the end of the world. Besides, Boeing is also competing with companies like Bombardier (CRJ) and Embraer, with at least four more regional jet makers starting to gain popularity as well. Sure, those companies build only smaller, regional jets, but every one of those routes is one that could have been flown by a 737, but wasn't. The implication that Boeing is somehow going to go from no competition to crushing competition is kind of silly in that context. They have a *lot* of competition already, and one more player almost certainly isn't a big deal.

      Also, I've seen Russian manufacturing quality control, and I've seen Chinese manufacturing quality control, and I wouldn't fly on a plane built by either one of them unless there was an American company running the show, with employees doing random drop-in checks to keep them honest. I've seen way too much appallingly bad quality control (we're talking loose screws rolling around inside, unauthorized part substitutions causing a 70% DOA rate, premature failure caused by overheating critical components while soldering, etc.) out of Chinese manufacturers to trust them with my life. And Russian heavy industry seems to do well up until they start cutting back on the rate of manufacture, and then those last few off the line are death traps.

      If they make it fifty years without a significant uptick in crashes, I *might* start trusting them. And even then, it would still just be a "might", not a "will". And that's also true for any airline. They're going to be very wary of any new manufacturer until it has proven itself.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    4. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They were happy that when it came to technology, we are "up there."

      The technology companies will continue to fire anyone who can tell the difference between men and women, which will save them money by streamlining their fault detection process because nobody is going to report mistakes anymore. If that doesn't make them rich, they'll just sell all of their IP to China. Problem solved! As long as the numbers are going up and the CEO has a line of cocaine on his desk and a twelve year old boy under it, they think everything is all right.

    5. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Airbus and Boeing don't reeeally compete if you look at the way they position their airplanes. The planes stair step each other in capacity never really competing head to head.

    6. Re:It's not only chips by bogaboga · · Score: 1

      Also, I've seen Russian manufacturing quality control, and I've seen Chinese manufacturing quality control, and I wouldn't fly on a plane built by either one of them unless there was an American company running the show, with employees doing random drop-in checks to keep them honest.

      Your sentiments hardly matter given that when it comes to human space travel, our government currently relies on the Russians at 100%. In fact, when it comes to rocket engines, the USA also relies on the Russians.

      All it will take is appropriate financing and the rest will be history. Americans used to say the same about Japanese motorcars in the early 80s. The story is very different now given that GM is busy closing factories now.

    7. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're wrong about many things, but the easiest to refute is that "China owns a significant amount of our debt".
       
      They don't even own a significant amount of our foreign held debt.
       
      They hold more debt than any other single country (squeaking past Japan for the title), but that amounts to less than a third of the total of foreign-held US debt.

    8. Re:It's not only chips by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Did you know that Russia was always building aircraft? Apparently not.

      They always cost less to buy, too. And yet. ;)

      Expect that plane to be very popular; in China.

    9. Re:It's not only chips by Aighearach · · Score: 2, Informative

      Given that china still owns a significant amount of our debt, we're surely in trouble.

      That could actually be worse for them than it is for us.

      There's a saying: if I owe you a thousand dollars, I have a problem. If I owe you a trillion dollars, *you* have a problem.

      Well, that is actual debt though.

      Holding bonds isn't the same as giving a loan, though; you get no power over the bond issuer. Defaulting only means people wouldn't want to buy that bond in the future.

      Also, the US government issues the bonds, and they all get purchased. What the market does with them after that doesn't even affect the US Government. There is no reason for the US Government to care who buys them. Only a country that has limited demand for bond purchases would need to care about that stuff.

      What are they going to do, send their leader to stand outside the embassy waving bond certificates in the air? Holding lots of US bonds just means that if their economy collapses, there will still be a core of foreign denominated income for them that is safe in the future. They get paid when the bonds mature, or when they sell them, same as everybody else.

      It is merely a wise investment, not a source of power or control for either side.

    10. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... When we lost manufacturing to China, ...

      EG, when those in positions to do so GAVE manufacturing to China, so Execs could claim short-mid term profits and bonuses, over long term goals and viability.

    11. Re:It's not only chips by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      It's sad. When we lost manufacturing to China ...

      Over the last 30 years, manufacturing in America has doubled.

      The "deindustrialization of America" is one of those things that "everybody knows", but is actually nonsense.

    12. Re:It's not only chips by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      What about an American airplane run by Asians? Say a Boeing 737 Max?

    13. Re:It's not only chips by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It sounds like concerning competition for the 737 until you realize that the design has long outlasted what was intended, and they're only doing small amounts of R&D for the new models. And even though it uses a lot more fuel than the regional competition, it also gets lower insurance rates because of its service history. It is easy profit for Boeing.

      Lots of western companies with quality manufacturing are competing, and Boeing mostly wins due to trust. I don't doubt airlines who simply can't afford Boeing or Airbus will buy this new thing, but yeah... heavy manufacturing confidence isn't built with a promotion campaign, like you say they need decades of proof before people with a choice will even consider them. In China they mostly won't have a choice, they'll be flying whatever this thing turns out to be.

    14. Re:It's not only chips by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Airbus and Boeing don't reeeally compete if you look at the way they position their airplanes. The planes stair step each other in capacity never really competing head to head.

      Then why does Boeing have models with overlapping capacity from the 737 all the way up?

      The only "stair step" is that Airbus has a giant monstrosity bigger than anybody wants. But for the whole range of planes that actually sell, everything is competing with multiple other offerings.

    15. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA got lucky, that's all. There is nothing inherently "great" about the USA.
      After WWII, what 1st world country, with large educated population , good infrastructure, large natural resources, large manufacturing capacity etc etc etc who had sucked the wealth out of other countries by selling them weapons, etc etc did not have to rebuild their schools, hospitals, roads, houses, etc etc...yep the USA.

      The USA go rich, and they were able to spend it on R&D, modernisation, etc etc. The 1950's and 1960's up until the mid 1970's were good to , and for, the USA. Indeed in the 1950's the USA accounted for close to 60% of the entire worlds GDP. Peak wages for the USA were in the 1970's, and in real terms have been generally falling ever since.

      However come the 1970's the "need" for the USA dropped, the rebuild was done, manufacturing was competitive with the USA, populations had increased, trade was happening more and more between other countries.

      The USA now accounts for about 19% of the worlds GDP (and falling).
      The USA only accounts for 4% of the worlds population, and all other things being equal, would see the USA only being 4% of the worlds GDP.

      China will soon (if not already) be the largest economy, and without Brexit the EU would have become second (and they may still, it will just take longer), eventually India will be up there too.

      There is no rule to say the USA will be 1st, in anything.
      Asia accounts for 60% of the worlds population, and it's where all the real consumer growth is happening. US policies could see the USA hampered, if not blocked, from this market.

      So the USA was not a beacon of prosperity, it was simply a beacon of being lucky at the right time.

    16. Re:It's not only chips by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      LOL you're one of those fossils who still think that if you get rid of sexism, everybody throws their money in the air and starts doing drugs?

      You know the 60s happened, right? You were there, I can tell by the sound of your dribble. And you know the world still exists, right?

      The 1950s might not have actually been the paragon of enlightened culture. I know, I know, too shocking to consider.

    17. Re:It's not only chips by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      In fact, when it comes to rocket engines, the USA also relies on the Russians.

      Utterly false, except for that for first stages, one batch of mothballed NK-33s Orbital Sciences used/is still using for a while for their Antares craft, one of which caused a nasty total failure in 2014, and is to be replaced with the RD-181.

      ULA uses the RD-180 for the Atlas V, a tremendously successful albeit now expensive rocket, with 78 successful launches and one partial but not complete low orbit failure for the NRO, an arrangement which figuratively blew up also in 2014 with the mess with Ukraine. In theory to be replaced with an Aerojet and/or Blue Origin rocket.

      If there's any other rocket engine we use that's not Made in the USA I'm unaware of it. We're currently launching Delta IVs, 36 successes, one partial low orbit failure, Falcon 9/Heavy, Minotaurs (well, they're just converted Minuteman and Peacekeeper ICBMs), and the Pegasus apparently is still hanging in there.

      As for your first point, that's a NASA problem, likely soon to be solved by SpaceX and/or Boeing/ULA, both under the heavy thumb of NASA. And right now officially no one, or are you forgetting last month's Soyuz failure? (Well, the escape system worked!) Is that fleet still grounded while they figure out what happened?

      Plus you're studiously ignoring the wild success of SpaceX, which by focusing on economics, and e.g. not starting with a military missile design, is putting the rest of the international space industry at risk of losing most of their business.

    18. Re:It's not only chips by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Boeing is competing with neither. They more or less own Embraer now and the CRJ line will last for just a few more years.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    19. Re:It's not only chips by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      It's our working class that's been devastated. I mean come on, that article counts refined petroleum products as "manufactured goods". The day our working class has jobs again is the day I feel better. Until then, it's a crisis.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    20. Re:It's not only chips by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Indeed, the recent failures of the Russian space program are precisely what I was thinking of when I expressed concern over the quality control in Russian heavy manufacturing.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    21. Re:It's not only chips by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Heh. Fair enough. I hadn't noticed their controlling stake in Embraer. I wouldn't rule out Bombardier, though. The Global 7500 is going to ruffle some feathers on the bottom end, and if some of those enhancements make it into a future CRJ cabin upgrade, it could shake up the mid-range, too.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    22. Re:It's not only chips by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      The fact there are big companies overseas by itself shouldn't be an alarm. Taiwan is a (relatively) healthy democracy. We should expect and welcome strong industry from such. More industry means more choice, more R&D, and more products.

      As far as China, we couldn't compete with them on manufacturing because they are (or were) willing to pollute, and have slave-like labor practices. Citizens don't have enough political power to affect changes in these.

      I believe we should tariff countries who create imbalanced trade via low pollution & labor standards. We don't have to trade with jerks.

    23. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen way too much appallingly bad quality control (we're talking loose screws rolling around inside, unauthorized part substitutions causing a 70% DOA rate, premature failure caused by overheating critical components while soldering, etc.) out of Chinese manufacturers to trust them with my life.

      Wait a minute, dgatwood, aren't you that guy who didn't know the difference between "power" and "energy" when talking about Tesla car batteries?
      I don't know about the Chinese, but I don't think many people trust you with their life.

    24. Re:It's not only chips by gtall · · Score: 1

      Manufacturing in the U.S. is roughly north of $2 trillion a year. 2nd to China out of a roughly $19 Trillion economy. China's manufacturing is roughly $6 Trillion. Theirs is about 42.6 % of their GDP, the U.S. is roughly 10 % of GDP.

      So the U.S. has lost manufacturing, I suppose you could argue it went to China. But the SE Asian countries are attempting to do to China what some argue China has done to the U.S. That's one of the reasons China is swaggering around the S. China Sea claiming to have the Biggest Dick. The U.S. seems to be mired into "don't call us, we'll call you" brand of Republican Isolationism...yes, it didn't die even with WWII (if it were up to them, the U.S. would never have fought). The U.S. is retreating without putting up a fight. Trump's pinpricks are useless and probably self-defeating.

    25. Re:It's not only chips by gtall · · Score: 1

      That's a fool's errand. The only way to put the American working class back in manufacturing is to raise the cost of everything in the U.S. drastically. That would cause an inflation. Interest rates would rise, government deficits would rise even faster than the King of Debt, el Presidentie Tweet ever hoped for in his wildest dreams.

    26. Re: It's not only chips by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Bombardier found out that they don't really have the resources to manufacture modern jets, hence the sale of the cseries to airbus.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    27. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe we should tariff countries who create imbalanced trade via low pollution & labor standards. We don't have to trade with jerks.

      I agree, salaries should not matter, but environmental and work conditions (exposing workers to dangerous chemicals) should. And right to strike and unionize also, but these ones are also being challenged, to put it mildly, in the West.

    28. Re:It's not only chips by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Big corporations have big pockets to write big bribes (campaign donations) to get their way.

    29. Re:It's not only chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suggestion: Let's stop fomenting chaos in far away lands and concentrate on making the USA a beacon of prosperity once again.

      I couldn't agree more but, alas, this is impossible under any form of profit motivation schema.
      To this, America does not have the sheer resources it needs to keep the market it currently has in the country running if the rest of the world does not give in to its demands, or is able to provide the cheap manufacturing and labour that it needs to continue to exist as it does.

      It just is not possible to fix the current political structures of the entire world to coexist beyond a few more decades as they continue to each strengthen and demand their way of life, and strangle others, as the "Americana Period" has done so the past hundred or so years.

    30. Re:It's not only chips by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      It's our working class that's been devastated.

      Actually, they haven't. This is another thing that "everybody knows", but is not true.

      Working class incomes, adjusted for inflation, have stagnated since the 1980s. Stagnation means they stayed the same, not that they declined.

      Is it a problem that working class incomes have stagnated, especially when people higher up the income ladder have prospered? Sure, most people would agree that is a problem. But by using hyperbolic words like "devastated", you aren't contributing to the solution.

    31. Re:It's not only chips by Darkling-MHCN · · Score: 1

      Initially, the engine is likely to be supplied by Rolls-Royce or General Electric that already have products in this class.

      And the most expensive part of the plane will still be made in the US or Britain, as will probably most of the other components that you would attach to these engines.

      And also I fail to see what the C929 has to do with TSMC. Plus Taiwan and China are currently very different places / political bodies.

    32. Re:It's not only chips by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The U.S. can threaten to selectively default on the bonds that China holds. Who that hurts the most is an open question. Note that inflation is a continuing partial default.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    33. Re:It's not only chips by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The 60s. The era of "Why Don't We Do It In The Road". Don't trust anyone over 30. Those 60s.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    34. Re:It's not only chips by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The superiority of the US is based on a rule of law that protects freedom and property rights. There are many aspects to this, but one that has come to my attention recently is food supplements. Many things available over-the-counter in the US require a prescription in the EU. Of course, many drugs that require a prescription in the US are available over-the-counter in Mexico, but Mexico has other flaws and entrenched corruption.

      Most places in the US it's easier to start a business than other civilized countries - less red tape.

      As long as it's easier to get things done in the US, and the product of your labor is protected, the US will retain its superiority. It's not an accident; it's by design, and a large part of that design is visible in the United States Constitution.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    35. Re:It's not only chips by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Let's create a win for them. It's the least we can do after deliberately ruining them the past 30 years. Afflict the comfortable, comfort the afflicted.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    36. Re:It's not only chips by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      I am 100% with you. American leadership seems content to rest on the laurels of our forefathers, which will lead to China and the rest of the world eating our lunch. We need to cut spending on the military and entitlement programs, increase taxes on the super-wealthy, control healthcare spending, and invest intelligently in infrastructure, basic science, and applied science that will help us compete in the marketplace of tomorrow. Will that happen? Probably not.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    37. Re:It's not only chips by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They still play Lather on the radio, but not many people realize it is only about the drummer turning 30, and the band deciding he's still human.

      Don McLean certainly thought it was the end of the world, but the world moved on, even so far as the video to Madonna's cover of the song.

  5. Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Archtech · · Score: 0

    "TSMC has a real chance to replace Intel as the best chipmaker in the business".

    The big question is: can TSMC produce processor chips without massive gaping security holes? If so, their chances are fair to middling.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, In order for TSMC to compete with Intel they need gaping security holes like Intel. Good point.

    2. Re: Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if the chips are designed properly yeah. TSMC is just a fab, they donâ(TM)t design the chips, they print em.

      Additionally, not sure why there are a bunch of âoe china china China âoe posts in here. Taiwan is not Mainland china, and I think theyâ(TM)d like people to recognize that.

      Donâ(TM)t get me wrong, mainland China would love it if everyone supported it being thereâ(TM)s, but the locals take issue with that.

    3. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by currently_awake · · Score: 2

      Intel does R&D, producing new designs. TSMC just makes stuff others design, and therefore has a much higher chance of making stuff with security holes (and doesn't care because security isn't their job).

    4. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can they even care?
      The designs they manufacture aren't their propriety. They can't just make their own changes and get away with that. At least not without consequences from their customers. Who may look for more trustworthy competitors.

    5. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      The big question is: can TSMC produce processor chips without massive gaping security holes?

      As others have noted, it depends on who's designs they're fabbing, but the answer is that everybody who's designing high end, state of the art out-of-order with speculative execution chips has screwed up royalty. All of Intel, ARM, and IBM, both zSeries (lastest mainframes derived from the System/360) and POWER have Meltdown problems. All including AMD have much more sinister Spectre problems.

      So everyone in the industry has a lot of work to do, and TSMC ... well, this might actually hurt them if this delays some designs, or in general slows the design process down.

    6. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "TSMC has a real chance to replace Intel as the best chipmaker in the business".

      The big question is: can TSMC produce processor chips without massive gaping security holes? If so, their chances are fair to middling.

      The big question should be, why are you posting stupid shit that doesn't make sense?
      Your question proves that you don't know what a fab is, and should probably shut the hell up, but you won't because arrogant dipshits never do.

    7. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      (and doesn't care because security isn't their job)

      Well they probably care a lot about the integrity of the designs, if you could compromise the masks it probably takes only a minor adjustment to create a hardware backdoor. Of course this is more three letter agency level hack than a script kiddie, but the prize is potentially huge as no code is safe if the hardware can't be trusted.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Only a very tiny part of ARM offerings has that stuff, and it seems they licensed most of it just to produce high end designs for specific customers.

      I have dozens of ARM processors within 10' of me, across multiple families, and none of them have out-of-order speculative blah-blah, they're all pretty standard RISC chips. The deepest pipeline is 4 stages, in-order.

    9. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The gaping security holes you're thinking of were mainly put in by Intel, Cisco, Juniper, and other designers. Don't blame TSMC for manufacturing according to specs.

    10. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      Indeed, but are any of those chips within 10' of you competing with Intel for the desktop and server markets, or could they in theory do so (especially for the desktop)?

      BTW, I remember reading that there's pretty much one ARM chip in every SD/SDHC/SDetc. card. I assume this is one way we get "billions and billions" of ARM CPUs shipped every year.

    11. Re:Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Could a desktop CPU run the code running on the ARM chip at the same speed? No. Not even close. The worst-case latency of that desktop CPU is so bad, if you used it to power your keyboard you'd be missing keystrokes.

      It is just a constant stream of "squirrel!" and "whatabutt?"

      You were making an accusation against ARM. I pointed out it wasn't true. Now you're talking about desktops.

      Yes, lots of people use ARM chips in desktops and servers, but no, that doesn't have anything to do with which chips are vulnerable to spectre.

    12. Re: Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you would run bare metal code on the desktop CPU it would be comparable latency wise...

    13. Re: Are TSMC's chips properly designed? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Its worst case response time would still be as bad an 8 bit microcontroller. You would not match the response time of a mid-range ARM chip running at 180Mhz.

      But ARM-based laptops with no speculative anything do just fine running one application at a time.

      It is more about major appliances and consumer electronics than SD cards. Most of those have cloned ASICs. Even if they stole the IP, they wouldn't make it into the statistic.

  6. Re:um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All they see is layouts. it's very very difficult to extract RTL or functionality from a layout.

    They don't see 100% of the chip either, EEPROM programming, or fuse programming, especially keys, are typically handled elsewhere.

    They can clone things, but without the fuse details, programming details, and test details, it's just a cheap non functional piece of hardware that can function as a space heater.

  7. Re: um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am not sure they are taking over, exactly. This is centralized in the US and Japan still although a significant amount of chip making may happen at TSMC. All the main points of the agreement have to do with manufacturing post-fab and then a bunch of design in the US (and Japan). How much fab is actually going to happen in Taiwan is based on the ongoing business needs as time passes

  8. Re:um... yeah... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

    if your chip designs are that sensitive for national security you better have your own Fab.

    ROC is a solid America ally, so there isn't much "national security" risk. American defense contractors can't afford their own fabs.

    Now the part that can be fixed with trade negotiations is to be sure that the company doesn't go ahead and make a spinoff product based off your IP.

    ROC does not require any IP sharing or joint ventures (ROC != PRC). If they are fabbing your chip, you give them your masks, not your VHDL/Verilog source. With the mask, they could make direct copies, but not "spin-offs".

    Of course, if they are caught ripping off their customers, their $190B market cap would quickly go to near zero. So they have a pretty big incentive to behave.

  9. Fuck Bloomberg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "A company no one ever heard of..." OK Bloomberg, fuck the media

  10. Intel is garbage that's why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone is switching to ARM. X86 is an obsolete electricity gobbling turd filled with security problems.

    1. Re: Intel is garbage that's why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody is switching to #next_great_thing#.

      Gotcha.

    2. Re: Intel is garbage that's why by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      But there is a valid #reason# for that. See OP and then go out and research what mobile phone manufacturers are actually building their battery-sensitive phones on.

    3. Re:Intel is garbage that's why by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      ARM has the same exact security problems, right down to one of their latest designs having a Meltdown variant. Of course, the overwhelmingly vast majority of ARM chips are in-order, some superscalar like the Pentium before you get to their fastest designs, which of course are the only ones that can compete with Intel for processing power. No real joy for Intel haters, everyone in the industry has failed, AMD except for Meltdown, IBM both mainframe and POWER including Meltdown.

      Also, I've never heard that ARM beats Intel on electrical power consumed for computing power, for servers and the like where you want the absolute maximum computer power you can afford.

    4. Re:Intel is garbage that's why by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Everyone is switching to ARM. X86 is an obsolete

      ARM still lacks mature "big server" features. If anything, it's more a matter of specialty. x86 (currently) does "big iron" better, and ARM does mobile/small better.

      Someday ARM may improve enough on the high-end to render x86 obsolete, but it's also possible it may lose its inherent advantages in that niche when it piles on features to compete with x86 and gathers similar cruft.

  11. What did they expect? by Sqreater · · Score: 0

    You send manufacturing overseas and design and management must eventually follow. And as for Renee James, her Wiki entry shows her to be a major part of intel's creative decline due to the major positions she has held. I don't doubt the doer-ship of women, but they are lacking creative aggression. And companies who do not realize that doom themselves eventually if they depend on being cutting edge and beyond for their positions. There is no historical evidence of the creative aggression of women on any level that has meaning in the large. Every device and entity that they occupy was created and pushed forward by men.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
    1. Re:What did they expect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That chick who runs Facebook goes hard, but she's the exception that proves the rule. Every other tech company with a woman in a role beyond "diversity officer" or "environmental impact chief" of some shit tends to stagnate.

    2. Re:What did they expect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lisa Su, CEO of AMD

      Just sayin...

    3. Re:What did they expect? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is no historical evidence of the creative aggression of women on any level that has meaning in the large. Every device and entity that they occupy was created and pushed forward by men.

      You write this on a comment thread about the fab AMD is using? AMD, the company headed by Dr. Lisa Su? The company that's going to cause Intel to lose a double digit market share percentage in 2019? For the second time in the company's history? That AMD?

      She joined the company in 2012, became CEO in 2014, and is widely credited with driving the company to commit to and complete the Zen architecture. She took over from Rory Read, a business wonk who did businessy things... and drove AMD into the ground in the process by failing to invest in new development. She's a match for Dirk Meyer, the CEO prior to Rory Read who gave AMD their first big lead over Intel with the Athlon family.

      It may be that men have created more things this way than women, but it's not "creative aggression" so much as it is risk-taking. Men take more risks than women. They have to, to reproduce it nothing else. Many of them fail in their aggression. Enough succeed that stuff gets made. But across the spectrum of risk-takers, there are women right up there at the high end of the spectrum, right along with the men. Dr. Su is one of them. So no, not "every device and entity".

    4. Re:What did they expect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, AMD is another company ruined by visionless CEO. The only company on the planet with a license to make X86 chips, and they do nothing with it. And after spending billions to acquire ATI, they completely failed to compete with Nvidia on AI. Every GPU accelerated machine learning library in the world is optimized for CUDA and useless on AMD chips. Thanks for pointing out yet another loser in in the parade. The stock price did get a nice momentary bump due to Intels utterly pathetic failing on the security front, but as anyone who owned AMD stock in the 2000s when it hit 38 a share can remember, it can and will come crashing down in a moment.

    5. Re:What did they expect? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You can't expect Zetas to understand that Betas select the Alpha from their own numbers, and that you have to be a Beta before you can be an Alpha, and you have to also have support from the other Betas.

      They're so far below all that, the Alpha just looks like a Godhead to them. So they worship.

      Zetas also rarely get to breed, so they don't have experience with the other sex and they get really distracted by their presence. This is one of the (many) reasons why the Zetas are chased off before the Betas get down to making decisions.

      Testing won't help, he just needs to be kept at a safe distance from important work, and monitored as a potential mass-murderer.

    6. Re:What did they expect? by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      The stock price did get a nice momentary bump due to Intels utterly pathetic failing on the security front, but as anyone who owned AMD stock in the 2000s when it hit 38 a share can remember, it can and will come crashing down in a moment.

      I read some time ago, probably after they completely dropped the ball after totally slaughtering Intel with their K8 microarchitecture and interconnect technologies, that over time, AMD has never made money for their shareholders. They create a big hit, like their 486 based DX4-100, and then reliably drop the ball again.

      But Intel's unique for them fab fumble, at least for a very long time, like going back to the early 1980s when they were forced out of the DRAM business because Japanese yields were so high, also has to be a significant factor. Between the lack of "10nm" production, and their shifting production around in anticipation of it, normally they transition older nodes to chipsets etc., which they're undoing, they can't make enough larger node CPUs to meet current demands. Kinda glad I have a surplus of still functioning fine Sandy and Ivy Bridge systems for my personal use right now....

    7. Re:What did they expect? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      the exception that proves the rule

      Time for today's English lesson. In this context, "prove" means "test", as in "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

      The idea that an exception would confirm a rule (the common misunderstanding) is pure nonsense. Garbage. False.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:What did they expect? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Lisa Su is also a very smart person, who did a degree because it was the hardest degree she could do. Compare that to the average business shifter who does the degree for money and because other degrees are way too hard.
      Thats probably also the main difference between Su and other CEOs of other companies. First she is exceptionally smart. Secondly she comes from an electrical engineering/processor design background and knows the stuff she is having produced first hand and not only the business numbers third she is willing to take risks. The average CEO usually just sees the numbers the people involved and is trying to reduce costs for the next bonus round.
      AMD is on a good way, but she also pretty much had a free hand given that AMD when she took over basically almost was bankrupt and the stock a penny stock

    9. Re:What did they expect? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      A classical example of the reduce costs for the next bonus, is microsoft where the testers of the Windows team were fired to a huge percentage to cut costs, the results were shoddy buggy rolling releases.
       

  12. Even fewer: Chip making *machine* makers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The concentration of power of TSMC is already a bit worrying.

    But that's nothing if you look at how few actually *make* the machines that TSMC, Intel, GlobalFoundries, etc need. (And how much they cost.)

    Basically, it's ASML and a few barely noteworthy ones.
    And a single machine can cost between six and nine figures. (You need *many* of those machines in one fab.)

    1. Re:Even fewer: Chip making *machine* makers! by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      The concentration of power of TSMC is already a bit worrying.

      It would be very, very bad if their high end fabs got trashed or destroyed in a PRC attempt to take over the ROC. Everything would be messed up for a while due to inevitable trade disruptions with the mainland, but other countries can spin up discrete parts and low end silicon fab lines (for discrete transistors and the like, and for those a lot of outside China fabs could probably just up their output) faster than high end fabs.

  13. Somebody... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... please fab alpha again.

    1. Re: Somebody... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't AMD buy Alpha and essentially gut the team for their Athlon project?

    2. Re: Somebody... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Compaq bought DEC, HP bought Compaq. As far as I can tell, sometime before HP bought Compaq about half the Alpha development team were offered jobs at Intel and nearly all accepted.

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  14. More people knew "Intel inside" than Coca-Cola... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I heard that during the heydays of the Pentium, there were surveys, that found, that more people know "Intel inside", than even Coca-Cola.

    I don't know if it is true... Or if this is for the entire planet of what...
    But given how much they advertised, it's certainly believable.

  15. Re:um... yeah... by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    Negotiations can get agreements but since they don't admit to doing this as it stands... good luck with that.

    Oh they might not use it where it is obvious, or in the US but you can bet they are studying and using your IP

  16. Re:um... yeah... by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    Also, most all chips are sensitive for national security.

  17. 30 years of PC has done nothing to convince me by aussersterne · · Score: 0

    that there aren't fundamental differences between men and women and what they *like to do* with their time.

    If you want to create a completely fair, team-oriented place to work where nobody falls through the cracks, hire a woman.

    If you want to build a kick-ass video gaming rig from the ground up in the middle of a hot warzone, hire a man. The woman will tell you that if you want to do this, your priorities are misplaced, and will focus on saving lives, not optimizing gameplay between bullets.

    Guess what? Tech on the open market basically amounts to building kick-ass video gaming rigs in the middle of a warzone.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:30 years of PC has done nothing to convince me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Men are specialized to make babies. Women are specialized to carry the babies. Is the difference "fundamental" enough for you?

    2. Re:30 years of PC has done nothing to convince me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Men are specialized to make babies." Is horseshit from a moron, next stupid Republican INCEL commentary? NO WONDER you're losing the female vote, they can't stand sweaty INCEL faggots breathing through their mouths.

      Neither can we, GTFO.

    3. Re:30 years of PC has done nothing to convince me by jbengt · · Score: 1

      If you want to create a completely fair, team-oriented place to work where nobody falls through the cracks, hire a woman.

      That has got to be the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever read about women in the workplace, at least based on my experience.

  18. Re:um... yeah... by yfeefy · · Score: 1

    dprk --> lol... anyway, what happends when communist china marches in... the solid ally stuff get defferenter.

  19. This article is confusing by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't get what this article is trying to say. TSMC is about to dethrone Intel ... how?

    In value? TSMC's market cap is half that of Intel.

    In innovation? TSMC is a manufacturer of outsourced chip designs ... think a Chinese factory that produces car parts for Ford. The article references the combined research budgets of Qualcomm, Apple, Nvidia and Huawei. That's cute, but what does it have to do with anything? In real life, those budgets don't actually "combine." They're all competing against each other. Does the outsourced manufacturer benefit from having all these customers? Sure, but so what?

    Intel, meanwhile, designs its own chips, which still dominate the PC and server industries. It also makes chipsets to go along with these, and most processor customers use these integrated chipsets these days. Add to that wireless devices, compilers, SDKs, and all the other stuff it produces that comprise an entire ecosystem.

    Does Intel face challenges? Sure. I don't think anybody can argue that it's kinda fallen on its face in the mobile market. But does anyone see AWS or Boeing approaching TSMC to produce custom CPUs tailored for specific workloads?

    So in that sense, you might as well say TSMC is about to dethrone IBM. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
    1. Re:This article is confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But does anyone see AWS or Boeing approaching TSMC to produce custom CPUs tailored for specific workloads?

      Yes. https://www.wired.com/story/new-amazon-chips-cloud-computing/

    2. Re:This article is confusing by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      And doesn't Intel still make what are pretty much the best Ethernet chips. They work, and are well and openly documented? And if you don't need the highest performance, aren't their on chip GPUs also good on both metrics?

      Anyone have some real facts, or pointers to the quality of AMD's current chipsets? I've heard ugly mutterings, but have no knowledge, still using stuff that's many years old now.

    3. Re:This article is confusing by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      TSMC is about to dethrone Intel ... how?

      TSMC already dethroned Intel in fab capacity. TSMC is now in the process of dethroning Intel in transistor density, and after that comes dethroning Intel in clock frequency.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    4. Re:This article is confusing by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      But does anyone see AWS or Boeing approaching TSMC to produce custom CPUs tailored for specific workloads?

      Yes, Amazon's Graviton for one.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    5. Re:This article is confusing by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I don't get what this article is trying to say. TSMC is about to dethrone Intel ... how?

      You can start by reading past the headline and into the summary. But here's a quick rundown:
      Intel is the producer of a CPU in a market that has been trending down for something like 18 quarters in a row.
      TSMC is the fabricator of 3rd party designs that dominate all the markets that are trending up.

      Why do you think Intel was so desperate to get into mobile? Or why do you think they are about to try their hand at a GPU? They know they ultimately are sitting on a single business highly dependent on sales of PCs and are desperate to get into alternatives.

      TSMC is the fab for those alternatives. Windows 10 on ARM? Well now along with craptacular PC sales you also have to deal with an additional competitor.

      As for the actual dethroning: Intel used to be 2 years ahead of all competing fabs in terms of technology. This year TSMC beat Intel to the "7nm" (equivalent of Intel's 10nm in marketing terms). Intel has technologically been dethroned, it's all they can do to hang on to their market as well.

  20. Re:um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's such ridiculous bullshit. ROC is an ally but of COURSE there ARE still national security concerns you retard. ROC is a country, not a FAB dipshit.

  21. Magic rocks by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Just like magic rock gardens a spire can rise only so far and then it crumbles down to be replaced by others on top of the ruins.

  22. Re:um... yeah... by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

    if your chip designs are that sensitive for national security you better have your own Fab.

    ROC is a solid America ally, so there isn't much "national security" risk. American defense contractors can't afford their own fabs.

    Right up until the PRC decides to heat up the civil war again and end it in their own favor...

  23. Re:um... no. by dtmos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "T" in "TSMC" stands for "Taiwan." We might worry that TSMC might share IP with the government of the Republic of China, for whatever good that would do anybody, but the odds of them knowingly sharing IP with mainland China (the PRC) is substantially zero. Not only for ideological reasons, but also because the PRC has SMIC and other TSMC foundry competitors. TSMC has a substantial lead over them at the moment, and would like to keep it that way.

  24. Re:um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you do not think there is sharing of US intel between ROC and PRC, then you are delusional

  25. TSMC is Winning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want to challenge the very premise here, that TSMC is winning. By exceeding the Intel market cap.

    Fab construction and the need to support ever smaller lithography processes, has resulted in fabs getting ever bigger, ever more expensive, and the group of viable fab companies keeps shrinking.

    I mean, TSMC is winning for now, I guess, but look at it this way: TSMC is getting huge because it has no choice. Either it grows humongous or it will die and become one of the (large) group of losers. And simply winning "today" in this business is far from being any guarantee that success tomorrow will follow. In fact if this trend continues, process shrinks will simply become unaffordable for anyone, no matter how big they get.

    I can't find it now but I saw a stark diagram showing the fab companies over time. At every point on the chart there were fewer and fewer companies still doing this work. Companies are now muttering about forming consortiums simply to be able to afford fabs that can build 5 nm, 3 nm and 1 nm chips. Single fab plants now cost multiple billions of dollars which is an enormous capital requirement.

    1. Re:TSMC is Winning? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      They're giving up and the customers of the defunct fabs are now TSMC customers.

  26. Re:um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if you think they share it unfiltered and anywhere near 100% of it, you're a fucking idiot

  27. Re:um... no. by whoever57 · · Score: 1

    but the odds of them knowingly sharing IP with mainland China (the PRC) is substantially zero.

    "knowingly", perhaps not. But how do you think SMIC got started?

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  28. About Ampere by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2

    That Ampere thinks it can compete is a testament to stumbles by Intel, and TSMC's ability to benefit from those mistakes.

    Maybe. But from personal experience, I can also say that they might just be stupid. I work in IT for a Fortune 500 company. I never name them here. We do a lot of software as a service type things. We're pretty good at what we do and in some areas we are likely the top dog for US based solutions. The business segment I support isn't sexy at all. But every year we have to deal with multiple startups who try to take our business. Many fail. We often see new companies say they can do everything we do for half the cost. Half the cost? Sure. But in reality they do like 1/3 instead of everything we do. So we have customers who leave over cost and then come back because our competitors really suck. Again, this is just not a sexy business segment in what I work with. This isn't it, but imagine you work for Turbo Tax. You don't just have H&R Block, Tax Slayer, etc. to deal with but every year some punk upstart company says it can do taxes better for way less than you charge. How much better can it really be? Either tax software works or it doesn't. You can't really make it "better". But we still have competitors who claim that this somewhat stagnant business can be done better and cheaper. And every year we watch as they go out of business.

    Another problem I've seen with startups is the "We can't possibly fail because we're geniuses!" attitude. Most startups do fail. I know a guy who has spent most of his IT career chasing startup glory and failing. He does make really good money, but he's always having to find a new job with the next startup. The older product I still support was started by a successful startup that my current employer bought out. I can tell you that a large number of people associated with that startup left us within a year or two of the acquisition going through and they went to a few different new startups that various people associated with the original company started. All those startups failed. And a large number of those people returned to my employer, tail between their legs. So sure, maybe what is said about Ampere is true and will happen, but I'm not ruling out that it's a dumb idea and they'll fail at it.

    1. Re:About Ampere by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      Quick question if I may impose? In very general terms, you and your (would be) startup competitors, SaaS offerings, who uses 3rd party cloud vendors and who in-house, and "why?" for all the combinations except the obvious of startups using the cloud.

    2. Re:About Ampere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But in reality they do like 1/3 instead of everything we do.

      Well, that's the key. The day someone finds the 2/3 of the things you do that the customers don't really need, this day you will be out of bussiness.

  29. The bottom line is volume by dtmos · · Score: 1

    What the article didn't emphasize is that Intel's main market is internal consumption (Intel-branded chips), while companies using the foundry model that TSMC pioneered sell to the industry as a whole. (I note that Intel does have a small, and not successful, attempt at a foundry business.)

    Intel must amortize the cost of its IC process development, plus the cost of new fabs every generation, based solely on the revenue it can generate from the sale of its own chips, while TSMC can spread that cost over the manufacture of chips for the entire industry.

    As the cost of building a single fab doubles with each process generation, and is now in the $10 billion - $20 billion range, it's fast approaching the point where no single semiconductor company has enough revenue to support such capital expenditures -- Intel included. TSMC has a little more headroom since, as a foundry supplier, the upper bound on its production volumes is the volume of the semiconductor industry as a whole.

    Right now, TSMC and Samsung are the only two suppliers of state-of-the-art lithography. It will be interesting to watch the political events that unfold as a result of the discovery by the public that the US no longer has state-of-the-art semiconductor processes. It will be even more interesting to watch what happens when people realize the degree to which the US economy is dependent upon three or four Asian semiconductor fabs.

    1. Re:The bottom line is volume by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      and the Japanese are taking over the CPU architecture too.

    2. Re:The bottom line is volume by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      the cost of building a single fab doubles with each process generation

      That really needs a law, named after somebody.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  30. When is 10 nm smaller than 7 nm? by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative
    In the wonderful world of fab marketing.

    Each company seems to be measuring a different thing when they report a process is "x nm." So while you can compare nm within a single company's offerings, you can't compare them between different fab companies. TSMC and Samsung's 7nm processes leapfrogged Intel's 14nm process (37.5 million transistors per mm^2). But they're still behind Intel's 10nm process.

    1. Re:When is 10 nm smaller than 7 nm? by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 1

      It is like modern retail 'sales' - up to 90 percent off, which means 1 item is 90 percent off and everything else is 5 percent or so.

      Their 7nm process is really just down to 7nm, but most of it is over 10.

    2. Re:When is 10 nm smaller than 7 nm? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Intel 10nm silicon yield isn't mass market ready yet.

    3. Re:When is 10 nm smaller than 7 nm? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an important distinction. Of course for the moment intel is only selling an i3 with a broken igpu from the 10nm fabrication so I'd say the yield is purely theoretical at this point.

  31. Re:um... no. by plague911 · · Score: 1

    So your point is.............???? That China engages in industrial espionage? Cause that's not exactly news.

  32. Re:um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think it's based in Taiwan, not China.

  33. ROC vs PRC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if your chip designs are that sensitive for national security you better have your own Fab.

    ROC is a solid America ally, so there isn't much "national security" risk. American defense contractors can't afford their own fabs.

    Right up until the PRC decides to heat up the civil war again and end it in their own favor...

    Taking Taiwan may not be as easy as all that:

    * https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-with-china/

    1. Re:ROC vs PRC by neoRUR · · Score: 1

      ROC = Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC)
      PRC = China, officially the People's Republic of China (PRC)

  34. Re:um... no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "T" in "TSMC" stands for "Taiwan." We might worry that TSMC might share IP with the government of the Republic of China, for whatever good that would do anybody, but the odds of them knowingly sharing IP with mainland China (the PRC) is substantially zero. Not only for ideological reasons, but also because the PRC has SMIC and other TSMC foundry competitors. TSMC has a substantial lead over them at the moment, and would like to keep it that way.

    Taiwan is still a province of China, just ask Jackie Chan.

  35. Re: um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if you don't plan (as if they DO share 100%). Then You are a fsckn idiot

  36. Re:um... yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if your chip designs are that sensitive for national security you better have your own Fab.

    ROC is a solid America ally, so there isn't much "national security" risk. American defense contractors can't afford their own fabs.

    Right up until the PRC decides to heat up the civil war again and end it in their own favor...

    PRC would have to sink a US carrier group (and deal with the 2 fighter wings on those carriers) that is stationed between ROC and PRC. Good luck with that one...and I'm pretty sure that would be an act of war against the US. Xi doesn't need a war and nobody is that stupid, even the orange one...

  37. Re:um... yeah... by mangastudent · · Score: 1

    The PRC might try to finish off the ROC before we can get a carrier there, but worse than the carriers for their schemes are our hunter-killer subs. Unless they figure out something the Soviet never could, it won't take many of them to turn it into an all air affair. Which might be part of their plan, why they've emplaced so many short range missiles, they might hope to beat down the ROC's defenses and get enough airheads in place that they sort of win by default, maybe?

    Getting back to the topic at hand, any war which freely uses those missiles would almost certainly shut down TSMC's production on the island for a long time. It could be far easier to exfiltrate their people and set up shop somewhere else (think Operation Paperclip), although of course the PRC would insist they are PRC citizens, and they would be subject to the current sorts of kidnapping and disappearing that's already happening.

    Xi doesn't need a war

    Right now he doesn't, but if he starts losing his grip.... That's why you always evaluate countries by their capabilities first, you never know when something externally "stupid" like a faction fight will cause a country to lash out at another.

  38. China doesn't really own that much of our debt by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    It's about a trillion out of 15.6 trillion. We owe most of the debt to ourselves. Meanwhile what we own to other countries can largely be thought of as tribute. Folks don't seem to realize that with a big military comes an empire, and America has an empire like any other nation with a big army. You don't need 19 aircraft carriers to defend yourself against Canada & Mexico...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:China doesn't really own that much of our debt by gtall · · Score: 1

      Check the deficit figures, it ain't the military busting the budget. It is the blue hairs and I-have-to-get-mine mentality.

    2. Re:China doesn't really own that much of our debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, most of the debt is owed to (rich) Americans - and that's a problem in itself. It means you can't just repudiate the debt, because that would mean harming rich Americans. I leave it to your imagination how likely it is that the current president, or any other, would pick a fight with that demographic.

    3. Re:China doesn't really own that much of our debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of military spending isn't accounted in the budget. Military spending is greater than social security. It's quite ridiculous.

  39. Re:um... yeah... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0

    ROC is a solid America ally, so there isn't much "national security" risk.

    I know some folks who disagree with you.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  40. Everybody knows TSMC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The title of this Slashdot story is a joke - "TSMC, a Company Few Americans Know".

    EVERYBODY in the semiconductor industry knows TSMC. Before the rise of the current surveillance industry (- Google/Facebook/Amazon), real "tech" had been existing where people actually made tangible things.

    It's about time for Slashdot to go back to its heyday when stories were posted about real technology.

    Sad to see the juvenile debates of what Intel does vs what TSMC does in the discussions. It's like watching fresh grads who know nothing trying to figure out amongst themselves by bickering about what their employers do

  41. Re:um... no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Two points:

    1. America recognizes a One China policy... so they are essentially the same country, with a small province exposed to Western influence.

    2. When PRC allowed communication with family members in Taiwan, many people in the Taiwan security services (all Hakka) were surprised to find out that their relatives held similar positions on the mainland. It is not hard to assume what happened from that point out.

  42. Re:um... yeah... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The PRC might try to finish off the ROC before we can get a carrier there

    Taiwan already has WAY more airpower than a single American carrier, and islands don't sink.

    The main purpose of the carrier would be to act as a tripwire, ensuring American involvement if it is attacked.

    A sea or airborne invasion of Taiwan is far beyond the current capability of the PLA. It would have to be bigger than D-Day. In June 1944, 90% of the German Army was in Russia. Of their soldiers in France, most were focused on Calais. For the PLA, there would be no "second front" nor any deception about landing points. They don't have even 1% of the amphibious capability that the USA+UK+Canada possessed in 1944.

    Airborne invasions have a very poor track record. Crete was a pyrrhic victory, the Normandy jumps were successful only because they linked up with troops advancing from the beaches. Arnheim was a failure. So was Dien Bien Phu.

    China could go nuclear, but that would likely bring American retaliation. If Taiwan ever feels like they can't count on America, they could build their own nukes in, maybe, a month. Remember, every country that has ever made a serious attempt to build a nuke has succeeded on the first try. As one of the most technologically advanced countr^H^H^H^H^Hregions in the world, Taiwan would have no problem.

  43. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This idea is stupid. Intel invented the CPU as we know it, the Intel 4004, designed by Federico Faggin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit

    Yes, Intel became very interested in mass marketing sometime in the 386 era, with the Intel Inside campaigns. However this was decades later, and Intel has always needed something to market. Without the hardware and CPU business, Intel would have nothing to sell.

    You know little of computer history and it shows.

  44. Re:um... yeah... by mangastudent · · Score: 1
    Airborne invasions indeed have some poor records, but Crete still succeeded. A politically desperate Xi might still try it, hope it works for him. And it would still trash TSMC production.

    China could go nuclear, but that would likely bring American retaliation.

    I don't see any scenario where we retaliate with nukes. To quote that PLA general from memory, we care more about Los Angeles that we care about Taipei.

    If Taiwan ever feels like they can't count on America, they could build their own nukes in, maybe, a month. Remember, every country that has ever made a serious attempt to build a nuke has succeeded on the first try. As one of the most technologically advanced countr^H^H^H^H^Hregions in the world, Taiwan would have no problem.

    Unless they get there hands on some plans, like the Khan network's, it would take them much longer, there are a fair number of tricks and experimentation needed to get implosion devices to work, and the much bigger problem would be procuring the fissionables, can't use civilian reactor "waste" for that. But in geopolitical time frames, maybe, but the PRC wouldn't react well to such an effort, not well at all.

  45. Mini "free trade zone" by hambone142 · · Score: 1

    Hsinchu, Taiwan is also a mini free trade zone. It's fenced off and guarded. What goes in gets shipped out and not taxed.

    It's been around for quite a long time (over 20 years that I know of). I've visited the area.

    They really know what they're doing. They have on campus dormitories for employees if they choose to live there (and work long hours).

    Note that this is NOT mainland China and is a sort of democracy. China insists they're a rogue colony though and this has been an item of contention for several decades.

    Ironically, Taiwan subcontracts out a lot of their high demand manufacturing to mainland China.

    1. Re:Mini "free trade zone" by hambone142 · · Score: 1

      Clarification: Hsinchu is not all fenced off, only the development TSMC and associated areas. They call it "Science Based Industrial Park".

  46. Hey, Jerr.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How do those words taste? LOL...

    ~ TSMC

  47. Re:um... yeah... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    Airborne invasions indeed have some poor records, but Crete still succeeded.

    Crete barely succeeded, and the Germans never again did a large scale airborne operation. The allies drew the opposite lesson, and expanded their airborne capabilities, but this was largely because they didn't realize the level of casualties the Germans had absorbed, or how close they came to being defeated.

    Crete was lightly defended, and the British and Greeks were caught totally off guard. They had lost much of their heavy equipment the previous month during the fighting on the Greek mainland. There were also some big communications blunders, when defending units were inadvertently ordered to disengage at critical moments. Despite all these problems, they almost defeated the attackers.

    China would have no element of surprise, would be facing an armored adversary, and would be faced with weapons that did not exist in 1941, such as DPICM artillery, that are devastating to exposed infantry.

    Unless they get there hands on some plans, like the Khan network's

    In the 1980s, Taiwan cooperated with Israel and South Africa on nukes. They agreed to discontinue their program when it was infiltrated and exposed by the CIA.

  48. Perhaps better to muse on managing monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or at least significantly dominant positions in a market area, and how those positions are attacked. It's been a long time that intel has been retreating, once they were a memory player, and giving that up to concentrate on higher-profit parts over tech to boost more commodity parts may have played a roll, allowing other players to leverage large volumes to support process improvements over time.

    Not an unusual scene to see a player retreat from the broader market to live in the high-profit end. Seldom works out that well in the end though. Trials of entering new areas in attempt to expand their footprint often result in less-than-stellar initial efforts, followed by giving up. Look at all of Google's attempts to find something new. Then there is buying up competitors -- look at Microsoft. Another good way to lose a lot of money on a big bet. One imagines that the management of these profitable companies fancies themselves as geniuses, even though most of them arrived long after the actual success of the company, and are just arrogant self-deluded gamblers who like to spent other people's money. Of course, a huge pot of corporate cash always attracts these smooth-talking bastards.

    Someday it would be nice to see one of these companies decide that they actually want to make the best widgets possible and please their customers, and employees even if they don't grow to gargantuan size and influence the political landscape.

  49. Re:um... yeah... by larryjoe · · Score: 2

    The PRC might try to finish off the ROC before we can get a carrier there

    Taiwan already has WAY more airpower than a single American carrier, and islands don't sink.

    The main purpose of the carrier would be to act as a tripwire, ensuring American involvement if it is attacked.

    A sea or airborne invasion of Taiwan is far beyond the current capability of the PLA.

    Why would China care about occupying Taiwan? They could simply bomb it out of existence without risking their troops. There are no defense systems that could prevent the military annihilation of Taiwan, and the US military also cannot do anything to prevent this.

    However, there are three things that currently protect the military status of Taiwan:

    First, Taiwan doesn't have anything that China doesn't already have much more of. Perhaps China doesn't have a TSMC, but a Chinese takeover of TSMC would kill the company as no client company in their right mind would hand over important IP to a Chinese-controlled fab.

    Second, China has already effectively taken over Taiwan in many ways. Taiwan is economically dependent on Taiwan. Taiwan's official international relations and sovereign pride have effectively been destroyed. Most nations already recognize a Chinese takeover of Taiwan, at least nominally. China already exerts influence over Taiwanese elections directly through the 1 million Taiwanese businessmen who live in China and care less about Taiwanese sovereignty than their pocketbooks. Furthermore, the folks who remain in Taiwan realize that the Taiwanese economy will only continue to be more and more dependent on Chinese business ties.

    Third, straight from 1984, Taiwan as a purported renegade traitor, an eternal enemy to hate more than the in-power totalitarian regime, is of infinitely more value to the PRC than as a station for military troops.

  50. Re:um... yeah... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    My experience is now 18 years out of date, but as of 2000 AD, extracting gates from layout is a process that is or can be automated for a large part of any chip. RAM blocks are obvious. Much of the chip can be reverse engineered by repeated application of manual analysis and automated layout-to-gate computer analysis.

    That said, your EEPROM and fuse objection is entirely valid, and having a clue to what the chip is actually supposed to do is very important.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  51. Re:um... yeah... by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 1

    > they could build their own nukes in, maybe, a month.

    It would take more than a month. They would need nuclear reactor grade fuel, and would then have to convert one of their civilian nuke plants to work as a breeder reactor. They would have to design and implement their own manufactured equipment to handle the plutonium and shape it into nuclear weapon components. And they would still need to live test their weapon design.

    The gov't team developing the materials & the bomb would require bureaucratic omnipotence; I'm not sure that's possible for Taiwan. If the Taiwan executive branch decided that war was imminent and the a-bomb was needed to "survive", could assemble competent scientists, engineers, and project managers, and avoid political/legal challenges, I just don't see it getting done sooner than 3 months, and probably longer. Of course, it would require Taiwan already having made the secret preparations and has put the project into hibernation status. And at the end of the day, simple fission bombs may not have sufficient destructive force to deter the invader. Its fusion bombs (thermonuclear) which have scientists talking about the end of human life and civilization, not fission bombs.

    --
    There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
  52. People count only if they are Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not use the word "people" instead of the word "Americans" in that title? Why assume your readers are US-centrically minded?

  53. Re:um... no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "T" in "TSMC" stands for "Taiwan." We might worry that TSMC might share IP with the government of the Republic of China, for whatever good that would do anybody, but the odds of them knowingly sharing IP with mainland China (the PRC) is substantially zero. Not only for ideological reasons, but also because the PRC has SMIC and other TSMC foundry competitors. TSMC has a substantial lead over them at the moment, and would like to keep it that way.

    You might also point out that we (the US) actually give (or sell at very low prices) our military hardware directly to the ROC on a regular basis.

    That's where the ship I used to be stationed on is currently.

    They have been our ally since WW2.

  54. Sharing of info with PRC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I recall correctly, Chinaâ(TM)s (State-subsidized) chipmaker, SMIC, settled or had adjudicated a complaint that SMIC stole proprietary information by recruiting key personnel from TSMC...

  55. Re:um... no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So your point is.............???? That China engages in industrial espionage? Cause that's not exactly news.

    No. TSMC CXOs had an internal power struggle at one point, when the old TSMC CEO Morris Chang decided to heavy hand against his rival Richard Chang. Richard detected in response fled Taiwan along with 100+ Taiwanese engineers and managers in his party to mainland China and founded SMIC. Because of this conflict, SMIC was trusted and invested by Communist China's state capital. Later SMIC had a similar internal struggle that had expelled Richard Chang.

  56. Racism costs money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the Chinese see a good idea from the west, they copy it. When the west see a good idea from the Chinese they ridicule it. Now they are getting creatively destroyed.

  57. Re:um... yeah... by Agripa · · Score: 1

    Airborne invasions indeed have some poor records, but Crete still succeeded. A politically desperate Xi might still try it, hope it works for him. And it would still trash TSMC production.

    An airborne invasion would not be required to isolate Taiwan. Sea based denial would be difficult because of the US navy but conventional air and land launched precision munitions would be sufficient.