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Microsoft's Designers Are Now Working Together on the Future of Windows, Office and Surface (theverge.com)

Posted by msmash on from the shape-of-things-to-come dept.

Microsoft has changed the way it approaches design. The new Office icons unveiled this week are the first glimpse at a far bigger design overhaul that's going on inside the company. Windows is also getting its own icon changes, but the bigger change is a collaborative effort going on between the Windows, Office, and Surface teams. From a report: "This is definitely a cross company effort," explains Jon Friedman, Microsoft's head of Office design, in an interview with The Verge. The company's design leaders -- Friedman with Office, Albert Shum on the Windows side, and Ralf Groene for Surface -- all work together now. "We operate like an internal open source team," Friedman says.

"So we're all openly sharing our design work, critiquing the work, working on it together. What we've found is that the best way to develop our Fluent Design system is to truly open source it internally. What's happened is that we're getting the best of everyone's work that way."

56 of 115 comments (clear)

  1. They found another way by DarkRookie2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What is it with Microsoft and their continued exercise to keep making their products worse and worse.

    --
    http://progressquest.com/spoltog.php?name=Son+Of+Son+Of+DarkRookie
    1. Re:They found another way by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, they don't know how to make them better, but they have to change something...

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:They found another way by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Guess the mods are in denial how MS fucked up Skype, Win8, etc. but to answer your question:

      Because MS doesn't know what the fuck they are doing.

      e.g. They just pulled Edge after wasting years on it.

    3. Re:They found another way by slaker · · Score: 1

      To be fair I think they'd also prefer that you buy an Office 365 license for that new PC as well.

      --
      -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
    4. Re:They found another way by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2

      What is it with Microsoft and their continued exercise to keep making their products worse and worse.

      The problem is, they have to keep changing UI and pictures so you know they're still working. They redesign the icons so that you don't forget they're still an active company and it looks fresher.

      Honestly though, every time they come up with a new UI change it always takes a few years to get used to, because they always pick some weird idea or image style... they when you finally are accepting of their ugly UI and icons they feel the need to look fresh again.

      It's probably like how some composers will throw dissonance into something pretty occasionally so you notice the change in tone and stay connected. If everything was pretty and slick you wouldn't stop to think about the UI you're using.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    5. Re:They found another way by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      All they want is to make sure Windows always comes pre-installed on your device. After that, they don't care.

      If they 'don't care' then why don't they just listen to their customers instead of having all those "design" meetings?

      --
      No sig today...
    6. Re:They found another way by balbeir · · Score: 1

      They have too many Pointy Hair Designers

  2. wow by bigdavex · · Score: 1

    What do new icons have to do with a different development approach?

    --
    -Dave
    1. Re:wow by ArchieBunker · · Score: 5, Funny

      Knowing Microsoft they will now contain executable code. Expect gnome to implement a similar but half assed design but with calls to systemd. So now the OS can be aware of any icon changes.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
  3. Looks about as helpful... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

    ...as announcing a new "mission statement"

  4. Here are the Fluent guidelines by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Informative

    I had missed the whole new "Fluent" design thing from Build (I normally try to pay attention to what they talk about but was too busy this year).

    So I dug down a bit and finally found the Fluent design guidelines. There are some interesting things going on there, like use of light and focus in different ways depending on screen distance (viewing something on a TV screen vs. on a screen right in front of you), probably worth going over to incorporate good ideas into your own UI work...

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Here are the Fluent guidelines by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You'd think with all this focus on fluent design that there would be some easy template to write software for it. I mean actual software, not UWP "apps" which are about the only thing described in the guides.

    2. Re:Here are the Fluent guidelines by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I hadn't dug down that far, gotta admit that looks overly simple... what is odd is that from the video I thought it had more promise as they were showing light and drop shadows and other things. So how did the most common UI element end up so flat and plain, not even any kind of material aspect? Just blah.

      I don't need a full 3D splendorfest but I would love to see some depth actually come back into UI design, shadows if nothing else.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  5. Who knew? by YellowElf · · Score: 1

    Woah. Who knew that Microsoft's competitive internal teams and closed-source development was counter-productive?

    --
    Insert witty saying or aphorism here.
  6. Wow! Wonderful Idea! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Application, the OS and the device designers, all from the same company, are working together!

    OMG! what an innovative idea! Next you are going to say they have this new fangled thing called Scrum and they sprint, and there are user proxies, ....

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Wow! Wonderful Idea! by Gilgaron · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah it is kind of glaring sometimes that Windows has some theme settings and then Office just does whatever it feels like. Even the versions of Office that have themes don't let you just match the OS theme. So, while it seems like an easy/stupid fix for corporate culture they clearly haven't been sharing notes in the past.

  7. "to truly open source it internally" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "to truly open source it internally"

    Only Microsoft can truly come up with such a contradiction in terms without blinking.

  8. Redesign AKA by Gabest · · Score: 1

    Copy Apple.

    1. Re:Redesign AKA by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Ever since the "skeuomorphic design revolution" at Apple, where they got rid of all their skeuomorphic designs, Apple has no longer been the one to copy in UI designs (and even their hardware ideas are falling flat).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  9. So, What does this mean to the Mac Business Unit? by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

    Office for Mac has historically been developed as a separate codebase by an almost Pirate-Like Division at MS called the "Mac Business Unit" (Mac BU).

    So, what does all this "redesigned methodology" mean to the independence of Office for Mac and the Mac BU?

    BTW, MacBU is actually one of the more profitable Divisions in Microsoft.

  10. Microsoft has changed the way it approaches design by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Will the "new way" be as successful as the "new way" Microsoft implements Quality Assurance?

  11. They should have someone working on the past, too by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    There's a lot that needs cleaned up there.

  12. One of these things is not like the others by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

    So, I get how the Office and Windows Dev. Teams can collaborate; those are both SOFTWARE products.

    But then what is the SURFACE team doing in this clusterfuck of endless meetings and even greater corporate infighting?

    Are they trying to imitate Apple, and get their Software and Hardware offerings more "integrated"? Unfortunately, that model doesn't work for Windows, because it must work on widely-disparate Hardware. So, there is only SO much hardware/software "integration" that is practical.

    They can't even COPY Apple's business-model correctly. But then, they have about 40 years of trying and failing in that regard already.

  13. Re:Oh shit! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Directories are so 1990s. Real users use OneDrive and the "Cloud."

  14. Changes changes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Changes to Windows is a train that will never stop. They need change simply to show them doing *something*. Some of it is good. Most of it is lateral. Some of it is even backwards.

  15. windows is taking a dark turn by BlackOverflow · · Score: 1

    It's becoming more apparent why Valve is migrating to Linux. The writing is on the wall - soon, games will no longer work on windows. They appear to want everything stored in "the cloud", and most games won't run well or at all unless they're on a local drive. And they may just say that the M$ store is the only store allowed, and programs like Steam and GOG won't work anymore.

  16. Excellent! by Voyager529 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Having fixed issues with deleting user data, excessive CPU and disk I/O during updates, poor-to-nonexistent control of installing updates, user preferences regarding information density and screen resolutions, Outlook handling large mailboxes gracefully (especially with non-o365 servers), Access being super picky about version compatibilities, Sharepoint being an utter disaster, most of the newer Exchange server controls being exclusively Powershell applets, Hyper-V shadow copies being temperamental, convoluted licensing models, and coming to terms with the fact that consumers simply don't want to be locked into a vertical Microsoft ecosystem like Google or Apple...I'm glad they're finally able to spend development time on making prettier icons.

    1. Re:Excellent! by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Having fixed issues with deleting user data, excessive CPU and disk I/O during updates, ... [snip], I'm glad they're finally able to spend development time on making prettier icons

      I'm not sure if you're arguing that a company shouldn't employ designers until after the code fundamentals are all of a uniformly high quality, or that anyone trained as a designer should stop their work on their specialty and retool as an engineer/tester, or ...?

    2. Re:Excellent! by Voyager529 · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure if you're arguing that a company shouldn't employ designers until after the code fundamentals are all of a uniformly high quality, or that anyone trained as a designer should stop their work on their specialty and retool as an engineer/tester, or ...?

      I'm trying to argue that Microsoft's priorities are a mess. Do I have an intrinsic issue with a new set of icons? Not particularly, if it was "one or two dudes in Illustrator coming up with a dozen concepts and putting a poll up for the rest of the office to vote on until they decided on them". I'm more inclined to believe, however, that it is the work of dozens of people with plenty of meetings, e-mail chains, and Slack arguments, encompassing hundreds of hours that could have been used more effectively literally anywhere else. However, the underlying tone of the article was that they're trying to do better with integrating the Windows and Office teams, but from the outside, that hasn't seemed to be much of a problem in comparison to some of the more fundamental shortcomings of their more recent - and self-inflicted - problems throughout their product offerings.

      As for retraining designers, let's put it this way: the designers gave us the Windows 8 Charms Bar, Live Tiles, the Settings panel that's prettier but no less convoluted than the Control Panel it's replacing, the super-flat and difficult to read ribbons in Office 2013++, and have been working tirelessly to reduce information density throughout Windows and Office. If that's the fruit of their design specialty, then either train them or retrain them. If they all became QA testers, at least MS would *have* a QA department again - and I'd argue that's a better use of their human resources than changing icons.

  17. the future of me by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    My next computer will have a non-subscription OS just like it does now.

  18. The important things. by thevirtualcat · · Score: 1

    I'm glad they're really focusing in on the things that truly make software great, like new icons and ever-changing UIs and the ability to constantly call home. It's about time they stopped wasting resources on superfluous things like having a quality assurance department and making sure updates don't delete customer data.

  19. Great Ideas! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    They should probably extend this further. How about having a picture of a bookshelf shown on the desktop and a filing cabinet and a helpful assistant, with a friendly name like Bob, to assist you?

    Wait, wait, I got a wonderful new idea. How about, get this, its gonna knock you over, a whimsical side kick to Bob? Some sort of cartoon character that is animated, lets call that Clippy!

    Its gonna take the world by storm. Yes siree Bob!, no not you Bob, didn't call you. Shh. clippy. shh.. shut up. get lost clippy.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  20. Copying Apple? by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Are they trying to imitate Apple, and get their Software and Hardware offerings more "integrated"?

    Short answer is yes. And it's probably the right thing to do (from Microsoft's perspective) for their Surface products.

    Unfortunately, that model doesn't work for Windows, because it must work on widely-disparate Hardware.

    Which is why Microsoft has started designing and selling their own hardware. Then they can control the stack and it also helps keep third party vendors from getting too crazy. There is no principled reason Microsoft cannot sell a tightly integrated device similar to Apple.

    They can't even COPY Apple's business-model correctly.

    Lately Apple has been having trouble with Apple's business model.

    Snark aside, Microsoft seldom really copied Apple's business model, even on occasions when perhaps they should have. I'm not really sure why people persist in thinking Microsoft slavishly copies Apple. Their business models are quite different and their products are typically markedly different as are their customer bases. They compete but they cooperate a fair bit too. Yeah Apple accused them of "copying" the Mac GUI but one only has to use Windows for about 10 seconds to realize the similarities don't go very deep. Yes they are both GUIs but the interfaces are wildly different and always have been.

    1. Re: Copying Apple? by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

      Apple lost the look and feel lawsuit. What they 'claim' is irrelevant.

  21. Dear Microsoft: by nuckfuts · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Windows is also getting its own icon changes...

    For the love of God, who gives a flying f*ck about new icons? Give us back a working Start menu!

    I work on multiple versions of Windows and Windows Server every day, and I am constantly hunting for things. Do I right-click or left-click the Start button?

    I used to be able to get to anything I needed by drilling down through a menu or two. Now I resort to the search functionality constantly. Not to mention that settings for related things must be accessed in completely different places. Network-related settings are a good example:

    • Right-click network icon -> Open Network and Sharing Centre
    • Left-click network icon -> Network Settings (Control Panel -> Network & Internet)
    • Run ncpa.cpl -> Change adapter settings

    Want to edit network settings for a VPN connection, or authentication details? Two completely different places. I was recently trying to get rid of a remembered WiFi network in Windows 10 and I had to Google how do it!

    It's a complete mess.

    1. Re:Dear Microsoft: by Immerman · · Score: 2

      It's bad, but you can make it a lot better by stepping back and rethinking your usage patterns a bit (and ignoring Microsoft's apparent recommendations)

      First don't "resort to searching", do what every terminal user has known all along and go directly the much more efficient keyboard interface to begin with. Leave the mouse out of it entirely. [Windows-key] "some related text", cursor down if necessary to select what you want from the results, and [Enter]. Starting with the search is specially important given what a mess setting have become.

      Then take the abomination of a "smart-tile" start menu, stretch it to be as large as possible, and unpin everything you don't use from it. (I assume it's basically empty now?) Then replace all those useless "smart" tiles with the shortcuts to frequently used applications and folders that would normally be on your desktop or "common programs" start menu folder. You can organize them into groups, select different icon sizes as desired, and even create pop-up "subgroups" like you have on your phone/tablet by dragging icons on top of each other (if you can convince them not to dodge - I've had the best luck dragging between top-level groups).

      Now you've got a faster-than-ever access to your programs, and a far more powerful and well-organized "desktop" that's always easily accessible at the touch of a button instead of being buried behind open windows, and stays free of all the randomly accumulating clutter than plagues most people's actual desktop.

      Oh, and to pin folders to the start "menu" you probably need to first make a shortcut to the folder someplace, pin that to the menu, and then delete it.

      Sadly their file search is pretty appallingly bad - but if you install Everything.exe from VoidTools you can add find-as-you-type filename search that updates within seconds of any filesystem change.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Dear Microsoft: by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

      First don't "resort to searching", do what every terminal user has known all along and go directly the much more efficient keyboard interface to begin with. Leave the mouse out of it entirely. [Windows-key] "some related text"...

      That's exactly what I meant by "searching". Start typing and watch the results that appear.

      The rest of your advice regarding how to create a useful start menu is also pretty much what I've been doing, but I still resent the fact that if I want a functional start menu I have to build it myself. It's also no help on the dozens of computers I remote into everyday that have only the Microsoft defaults to work with.

    3. Re:Dear Microsoft: by Immerman · · Score: 1

      it wasn't the "searching" part I was responding to, but the "resort to". If you're used to searching, then it's by far the superior option even compared to a well-organized menu - you search by default, and only resort to browsing the menu when you're looking for something you don't remember enough details about to search for. Though admittedly Microsoft's implementation is by far *not* the best I've seen. Often frustratingly laggy and easily confused by typos - if a Linux launch menu search worked that badly a decade ago it would have drowned in bug reports.

      But yeah, I really don't understand why Microsoft decided the start menu could only be one folder deep and thus impossible to organize. Well, I probably do - having seen far to many programs that by default install their shortcuts into their own branded top level folder. Really [insert company name here]? You think I want your program grouped together with whatever other of your programs I happen to have installed, rather than with other functionally related programs? It would have been nice if MS had moved to organize things, rather than just flatten them into a useless mess - It wouldn't even be that hard, just only display the hierarchical folders provided by default (e.g. office, games, system, etc), and those explicitly created by the user, everything else gets flattened as is currently done.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    4. Re:Dear Microsoft: by Immerman · · Score: 1

      The big problem I suspect they were addressing is that programs often weren't effectively organized - seems like half the software I installed defaulted to "Publishing Company\Program name", making it effectively impossible to find unless you could remember the name of the publisher.

      As for settings, etc.? You'll get no argument from me. Only justification I can even imagine is that they want to force everyone to get used to using search. Which wouldn't be so bad if it actually worked well, but half the time you have to search Google just to find what you need to do a Windows search for. You can't even count on settings remaining in the same place after a major update. It's absolutely infuriating.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    5. Re:Dear Microsoft: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Now I resort to the search functionality constantly.

      So you finally embraced a modern and efficient way of using a computer. Congrats. And since I'm voicing unpopular opinions already, screw the drill down menu concept. What a waste of time that was.

      I was recently trying to get rid of a remembered WiFi network in Windows 10 and I had to Google how do it!

      To be clear you wanted to change something on WiFi and you had to "Google" that this setting was under: "Settings > Network and Internet > WiFi"?
      Maybe computers aren't for you.

    6. Re:Dear Microsoft: by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

      So you finally embraced a modern and efficient way of using a computer. Congrats.

      "Embraced" is too strong a word. And my complaint is not whether or not the method is efficient. It's about the constant imposition of changes for the sake of change. Unlike you I did not find the menu structure of Windows 7 to be a "waste of time". I knew where everything could be found, and could navigate to it in a simple and consistent manner.

      Furthermore, the two approaches are not mutually exclusive. Microsoft could have added your "modern" method of navigation without axing the legacy Start Menu. The real reason they started butchering the user interface after Windows 7 was because they were trying to encompass touch devices like smartphones and tablets, and I think most people agree the attempt was an utter debacle.

      To be clear you wanted to change something on WiFi and you had to "Google" that this setting was under: "Settings > Network and Internet > WiFi"? Maybe computers aren't for you.

      Congrats to you, despite your palpable smugness, for knowing where that setting was. But again you're missing my point. My complaint is not where they put the setting, but that network settings as a whole are scattered among various locations, and that Microsoft has a habit of changing the locations arbitrarily.

    7. Re:Dear Microsoft: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's about the constant imposition of changes for the sake of change.

      People often claim something is change for change's sake are simply saying "I don't like change of any kind and I refuse to try and understand what motivates change".

      Microsoft could have added your "modern" method of navigation without axing the legacy Start Menu.

      Given the completely seemless movement I do between Windows 7 and 10 I'm genuinely confused about what kind of a major change Windows 10's alphabetically sorted start menu with single folders offers over Windows 7's alphabetically sorted start menu with single folders. Or do you just not like the colour black?

      Congrats to you, despite your palpable smugness, for knowing where that setting was.

      I didn't. I was genuinely curious at how hard it was to find so I went to the page that contains all WiFi settings to see if it was there and it was. There's a lot of shit you can heap on Windows 10 for it's settings. Note I didn't contest any of what you said about the Network and Sharing Center much of that is incredibly poorly organised. I'm more confused at why didn't consider this specific setting to be in the completely obvious place and needed to Google it.

      But really my own pet peeve is Bluetooth. You can add a mobile device currently sharing it's internet settings from the Settings menu, but in order to actually connect to it you need to do it from Devices and Printers. There's a lot of batshit stupid stuff in the settings.

    8. Re:Dear Microsoft: by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

      But really my own pet peeve is Bluetooth. You can add a mobile device currently sharing it's internet settings from the Settings menu, but in order to actually connect to it you need to do it from Devices and Printers.

      Just like you can view your VPN connections by clicking on the systray network icon, but to actually connect you're forced to click the VPN connection a second time in Settings > VPN. There used to be a connect option when you clicked on it the first time.

      As for connecting / disconnecting Bluetooth stuff, I've never gone any way other than clicking on the systray Bluetooth icon which, oddly, behaves the same way with either a right or a left click.

      But never mind all these interface peculiarities, or annoying Windows defaults like hiding file extensions, we're being given new icons!

    9. Re:Dear Microsoft: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      As for connecting / disconnecting Bluetooth stuff

      No you can connect and disconnect devices just fine, but if you want to connect to a device that has multiple properties, specifically a phone that is currently running in bluetooth tethering mode, you need to add the device the standard way you describe, then open devices and printers, right click on the phone and then click "Connect Using > Access Point"

    10. Re:Dear Microsoft: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Don't like to double post but this also takes the cake: You can't set the resulting connection as metered!

  22. Re:Haters == Racists by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    /sarcasm Because disliking MS's complete UI clusterfuck is the same as racism ... Oh wait, false equivalency fallacy much?

    Astroturfer spotted!

    Maybe if MS would stop with shitty UI redesigns, such as Skype, Office, and Windows, people might stop hating MS's boneheaded decisions ... nah, can't be that simple! /s

    There was a reason WIMP was the standard in GUIs -- because it worked.

    How's that Skype UI redesign working out for you because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

  23. Oh great, another change in 'design'... by dargaud · · Score: 1
    ...meaning I won't recognised where anything is yet all over again. AWESOME, I'm so thrilled by this. Last time I paid attention it was... let me backtrack a bit... when the ribbon happened in all kind of places where I didn't want it. And rounded windows (meaning instead of 5 pixels of margin, it now took 20 or so). It let me to look for alternatives and one thing let to another, I haven't been on Office or Windows for a decade and a half now.

    And the more recent 'design' changes like 'all white and grey icons' or 'cards', well, I just ignored that unrecognizable garbage by using another OS. ON. THE. DESKTOP.

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
  24. Re:Could I just have the Windows 9x look and feel? by Immerman · · Score: 1

    Sure you can - you just have to use an appropriate Linux distro instead.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  25. Not broken by Livius · · Score: 1

    A reliable sign of someone (or a company) who is incompetent at what they supposedly do is a misplaced desire to fix something that isn't broken.

    I have to give them credit though: after so much of Windows did work at some point and since has been deliberately broken, finding the not broken parts is starting to become a challenge.

  26. Re: So, What does this mean to the Mac Business Un by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

    The Mac would have died in the late 1980s without Microsoft Word and Excel.

  27. Re:Microsoft has changed the way it approaches des by antdude · · Score: 1

    I highly doubt it. They got rid of their QA years ago. :(

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  28. Linux by stooo · · Score: 1

    >> Microsoft's Designers Are Working on the Future of Windows

    Call me when Microsoft's Designers Are Working On The Future Of Linux
    Then it will be relevant news.

    --
    aaaaaaa
  29. Microsoft PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do the following: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    1. Remove all creepy spying. It sucks, we don't want it and you're forcing us to have it. STOP IT.
    2. Remove the advertising ID from our O/S. ITS EVIL. We DONT WANT IT.
            A product we paid good money for should NOT WORK AGAINST US. STOP IT.
    3. Get rid of the new UI. The old UI worked. The new UI is not only stupid, it takes more time and more clicks to do something. It's stupid. STOP IT.
    4. Drop having so many identifiers in the O/S. 2019 has 3 identifiers, come on.
    5. Stop forcing crap down users throat. i.e It's EVIL to install software on peoples machines when they didn't ask for it and calling it a "feature". STOP IT
    6. Listen to your users. Users to you are like cattle and you're dictating to them. You'll get more respect from users if you stop F'ing them.
    7. You can still make an f-load of money and still have happy, unspied and unforced upon users.

    PLEASE LISTEN TO US AND STOP BEING EVIL. Really.

  30. Re: So, What does this mean to the Mac Business Un by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

    The Mac would have died in the late 1980s without Microsoft Word and Excel.

    And there wouldn't be a GUI Microsoft Word or an Excel AT ALL if it weren't for the Mac.

    Study your history before being revealed as ignorant.

    MS Word existed ONLY as a text-based (DOS) Application for something like TWO YEARS after the first version of MS Word for Mac (which of course WAS GUI-based) shipped.

    Excel existed ONLY for Macs for at least the first 2 or 3 Versions before being ported to Windows (as a GUI Application). In fact, Excel actually caused a bit of Mac-Envy among early Wintel-Users.

    And oh, by the way, Even WITHOUT MS Word or Excel, the Mac was doing JUST fine in the 1980s (MacWord, WordPerfect (IIRC), and Lotus 123 (and later, Lotus Jazz), were also very popular at the time with Mac Users. Only the poor management of John Sculley, who never met a Project he didn't like, caused Apple to temporarily internally lose its focus.

  31. Re: So, What does this mean to the Mac Business Un by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

    The Mac at launch was a disaster. Several feeble applets where all there was. Microsoft rescued the Mac from oblivion, and made a ton of money in the process.

    When Excel launched, nobody really cared, Lotus 123 was the ruling application in business. It took time for that to change.

  32. Re: So, What does this mean to the Mac Business Un by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

    The Mac at launch was a disaster. Several feeble applets where all there was. Microsoft rescued the Mac from oblivion, and made a ton of money in the process.

    When Excel launched, nobody really cared, Lotus 123 was the ruling application in business. It took time for that to change.

    Bullshit.

    The Mac at launch CAME WITH MacWord and MacPaint, hardly "feeble Applets". And guess what? NO completely new computer platform has much in the way of software at launch. So, nice try.

    And similarly, no new program, like Excel, starts out with much of a following, How could it? But it quickly dethroned Lotus 123. Buf even then, it was a few YEARS before Excel appeared for Windows.