What Student Developers Want in a Job (techrepublic.com)

When surveyed, people lie! by petes_PoV · 2018-12-11 07:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are

I think you will find that this is "interview bullshit". It is the sort of answer that people think the ask-er wants to hear.

The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.

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politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons

Re:When surveyed, people lie! by JaredOfEuropa · 2018-12-11 07:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
To some extent that is correct. But salary is a hygiene factor: if it's lower than expected it leads to dissatisfaction, but paying above expectation does not yield a lot of extra satisfaction. I look for different things in jobs now that I am older. But even when I was young, I usually picked lower paying jobs, with opportunities for learning and growing and interesting work, over crappy but well-paying jobs. And I've done a few crappy but well paying jobs as well... and it sucked. Pay is poor compensation for that.

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If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Shotgun · 2018-12-11 07:13 · Score: 1

There is an assumption that salary is going to fall in the same range. It is when Corp A offers you $70k and Corp B offers you $67k that salary becomes a "nice to have".

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Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Drethon · 2018-12-11 07:38 · Score: 1

The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are
I think you will find that this is "interview bullshit". It is the sort of answer that people think the ask-er wants to hear.
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
Besides, in my experience jobs give you. Just enough professional growth to churn out the code that makes them money, the company doesn't want a great software engineer, they want a code monkey that does what they are told and asks no questions. Work/life balance means you can have all the outside of work balance you want when nothing important is going on but we better not hear anything about you leaving work when a deadline comes up. For interesting work, see the code monkey part.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Drethon · 2018-12-11 07:42 · Score: 1

Also it is a good thing they don't want pay or perks. Well the pay is good if you work enough hours (if you get paid hourly) but I haven't seen perks in my jobs.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by lgw · 2018-12-11 07:50 · Score: 4, Informative

The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
first job is to be a full-time developer. To rise above the crowd who claims that can do dev work, and maybe does it part time. My second job paid 3x my first job, because I had that credibility.
Do Millennials really care that that much about work-life balance out of school? When I was in my 20s, I was full of energy and passion, and happy to work my ass off on any project that was actually interesting. Good thing, too, as I had a lot to learn. It was only in my 30s that I started to care about time for other things. Now it's my primary concern, but I'm close to retirement.

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by lgw · 2018-12-11 07:52 · Score: 2

Dang, Slashcode really mangled that one!
That post should start with "My first job paid half of market rate. What's really important in your first job ..."

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re: When surveyed, people lie! by Drethon · 2018-12-11 07:57 · Score: 1

Do you care to describe a code monkey specific duties in such a way as they could be easily replicated by a software engineer?
I've had quite a few jobs I was sorely tempted to automate, but the schedule was too tight to spend the time setting up the automation and the customer would have refused to pay extra money up front, even though they would save a lot in the long run. One customer specifically refused automation of the software testing as it would take away jobs.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by oh_my_080980980 · 2018-12-11 08:09 · Score: 1

LMOL first define what you compensation is then tell people it's not about the money.

You have bills to pay. Employers bottom dollar pay. So money is everything. When you get paid beyond a certain amount, then and only then do you think, maybe I would like ping pong. But with student loans, rent / mortgage, family and what not, it's about getting paid.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by dcw3 · 2018-12-11 08:18 · Score: 2

There's certainly a whole lot more to choosing a company than $3k in salary difference.
- Are you going to be able to work on cool stuff and grow in your abilities/marketability?
- Is the management cool - #1 reason people hate their jobs is because they work for dicks
- Do they have flexible hours, can you work from home, etc?
- Is your commute gonna suck at one, more than the other?
- What does the 401k matching look like?
- etc., etc.
These aren't "nice to have", they're essential to your quality of life.

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Just another day in Paradise
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by jittles · 2018-12-11 08:23 · Score: 2

LMOL first define what you compensation is then tell people it's not about the money. You have bills to pay. Employers bottom dollar pay. So money is everything. When you get paid beyond a certain amount, then and only then do you think, maybe I would like ping pong. But with student loans, rent / mortgage, family and what not, it's about getting paid.
When I finished school, I was definitely looking for professional growth, work life balance, and interesting problems to solve. In fact, AMD offered me a very nice salary to work for them when I finished. I turned it down, even though it was the highest paying offer I received. I ended up going to another company that was about the same size as AMD, but transitioning from analog to digital. At AMD I would have been one of thousands of software people. At this other company I was one in about fifty. I started out making less than 50% of what AMD had offered me. However, thanks to a bit of luck and hard work, I was leading projects by the end of my second year at the company. End result? I was making more than someone I knew who took the exact same offer from AMD I had received and I was gaining much better experience than they were, too.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by geekmux · 2018-12-11 08:24 · Score: 1

The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are
I think you will find that this is "interview bullshit". It is the sort of answer that people think the ask-er wants to hear.
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
Ever think for a moment that salary is not in the top list of concerns because of the low unemployment and high demand for certain skills?
Not everything is as bullshit-riddled as it may seem. Besides, companies know that a non-competitive salary offer is going to make people walk, so I kind of doubt your "50% less" offer is being thrown out there that often.
Re: When surveyed, people lie! by Drethon · 2018-12-11 08:28 · Score: 1

Do you care to describe a code monkey specific duties in such a way as they could be easily replicated by a software engineer?
For a more concrete example. I had one job where I was writing tests for software where the requirements were literally a logic diagram written out so it could be fed to a model to create code. I could have written a separate program to parse the requirements and write the tests. Would have just needed a reviewer of each test to pass certification i believe.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Quirkz · 2018-12-11 08:45 · Score: 2

Really? I would have thought it likely that half of all employees accept below-average salaries.

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The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Mattatron · 2018-12-11 08:57 · Score: 1

It'd be more likely if you'd have referred to median, and not average, salaries.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Quirkz · 2018-12-11 09:13 · Score: 1

Well, I was mostly riffing on the old "half of all people have below average IQ" truism people spout here before making some argument based on things being distributed on a bell curve. But you're absolutely right. In fact, a few unreasonably high salaries might mean more than half of people take below-average compensation!

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The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by farble1670 · 2018-12-11 09:29 · Score: 1

but paying above expectation does not yield a lot of extra satisfaction
Speak for yourself.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by farble1670 · 2018-12-11 09:31 · Score: 1

There's certainly a whole lot more to choosing a company than $3k in salary difference.
- Are you going to be able to work on cool stuff and grow in your abilities/marketability?
- Is the management cool - #1 reason people hate their jobs is because they work for dicks
- Do they have flexible hours, can you work from home, etc?
- Is your commute gonna suck at one, more than the other?
- What does the 401k matching look like?
And 3 of the 5 of those you don't know until you work there for a month.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by farble1670 · 2018-12-11 09:33 · Score: 1

Do Millennials really care that that much about work-life balance out of school?
According to the survey, 52% of them did.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by Mark+of+the+North · 2018-12-11 10:25 · Score: 1

My bet is that you will change your mind right after your first ulcer.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by dcw3 · 2018-12-11 11:03 · Score: 1

Only if you're too lazy to do your homework.

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Just another day in Paradise
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by khchung · 2018-12-11 13:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

But salary is a hygiene factor: if it's lower than expected it leads to dissatisfaction, but paying above expectation does not yield a lot of extra satisfaction.
It's a LIE spread by HR departments to suppress salary increases. If it were true, all C-level executives would only be paid similar to, or maybe 2-3x, the average wage of the company, not 100-200x of it. And they won't asking for, and get, even more millions in bonus and stock options every year, plus a golden parachute, even if they drove the company to the ground.
Speak for yourself. Pay ME above expectation will certainly give ME a lot of extra satisfaction.
In fact, everyone I know at work PREFER to get a bigger bonus/higher pay as appreciating for job well done, instead of stupid appreciate cards or such cheap gimmicks.

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Oliver.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by pnutjam · 2018-12-12 01:54 · Score: 1

Yeah, I think in most employees minds this is a choice between a solid top half of the norm salary and a big abnormal salary. However, you get others interpreting it as low "industry standard" salary based on 3 year old data.

Money absolutely figures into it, but won't keep you around if work satisfaction sucks, unless your an incurious clock puncher.
New grads also don't realize how pay can be manipulated and how difficult it can be to compare packages from company to company. You could move jobs, get a 20% raise and end up taking home less after you figure in the cost of your Health Insurance or other benefits.
Maybe the make you pay for parking or maybe the have a strict dress code that means you have to buy a new wardrobe. It's very difficult to compare pay between offers.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by pnutjam · 2018-12-12 02:00 · Score: 1

Don't forget, to check if your health benefits are going to cost $300 or $1200 a month, especially if you have a family.
When I worked for HP; they had good cost, decent benefits. Then they spun us off to DXC, put a freeze on annual raises, and doubled or tripled our benefits costs, which was essentially a 10% pay cut.

My new job doesn't have the most inexpensive benefits, but at least I knew that up front and was able to figure that into the salary negotiations.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by nine-times · 2018-12-12 02:50 · Score: 1

If it were true, all C-level executives would only be paid similar to, or maybe 2-3x, the average wage of the company, not 100-200x of it.
The question is about priorities. Of course if those C-level executives have the option of making millions of dollars, most won't turn that down in favor of making merely enough. But that's not really the sort of choice we're talking about.
The question is more about, if one of those C-level executives had the choice between a $10 million/year job that they hated and was a waste of time, and a $9 million/year job they loved and was fulfilling, which one would they choose? If they're smart, they'd choose the $9 million/year job. Therefore, it's not all about money.
Money has diminishing returns. The difference between having $0 and having $10,000 is huge. The difference between having $40k and $50k is still substantial.
The difference between having $10,000,000 and $10,010,000? It doesn't matter.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by khchung · 2018-12-12 14:00 · Score: 1

if one of those C-level executives had the choice between a $10 million/year job that they hated and was a waste of time, and a $9 million/year job they loved and was fulfilling, which one would they choose? .
The simple fact that you have to use such extreme example, CWOT vs love and fulfilling, just to compensate for a mere 10% pay difference demonstrated the point — money can make a lot of difference in ANY case.
If more than “enough” money won’t motivate people much, isn’t a million quite enough for most people? Would YOU choose a 1m love and fulfilling job over a 10m CWOT job? I would take the CWOT job, quit after 2 years and then do what I find love and fulfilling for the next 18 years.

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Oliver.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! by nine-times · 2018-12-12 15:10 · Score: 1

I would take the CWOT job, quit after 2 years and then do what I find love and fulfilling for the next 18 years.
What if what you "find love and fulfilling" was the $1 million job? Then you could still get $20 million in those 20 years, just doing what you love and not wasting 2 years of your life.

Where is MONEY on this list? by cayenne8 · 2018-12-11 07:02 · Score: 1, Insightful

I hear about the millennials not having enough money to move out of parents' homes, and large student loan bills......and yet, perks and "work/life" balance is at the top of the list of where they want to work??!?!

Or, are they just assuming that they deserve a high starting salary, and therefore, the "perks" are what the deciding factors are?

Geez....you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.

Get out, make as much $$ as you can, gain experience, make connections...and then, start making your moves up the line where you have time to consider perks, etc.

Jobs aren't meant to be fun....otherwise it wouldn't be called work...

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by Shotgun · 2018-12-11 07:10 · Score: 1

Not all millenials graduate with a Comp Sci degree.

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Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by eepok · 2018-12-11 07:34 · Score: 1

This is a survey of students, not people 3+ years into their career. They're MOST concerned with being taught all the stuff that they didn't learn in college so that they can actually earn good money. That's literally the first section after the table of contents in the linked article.
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by ljw1004 · 2018-12-11 08:29 · Score: 1

Geez....you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.
I think we can safely assume that amongst those millenials who come out of school and don't have enough money and bitch about it, there are almost no software developers...
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by dcw3 · 2018-12-11 08:36 · Score: 1

I'm Gen X. Thanks to all the millennial beta-males and homosexuals, there's lots of unemployed women will to work and serve alpha types such as myself.
Now go bring me coffee.
It's hard work getting the lazy to do their job. Sheesh!
I'm a Baby Boomer...get the fuck off my lawn.

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Just another day in Paradise
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 08:40 · Score: 1

Actual quote was from Genghis Khan. IIRC (might have been Attila).

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by Oligonicella · 2018-12-11 09:43 · Score: 1

Correction - You say this as an AC *claiming* to be in the industry since the '90s.
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by tlhIngan · 2018-12-11 11:27 · Score: 1

I hear about the millennials not having enough money to move out of parents' homes, and large student loan bills......and yet, perks and "work/life" balance is at the top of the list of where they want to work??!?!
Or, are they just assuming that they deserve a high starting salary, and therefore, the "perks" are what the deciding factors are?
Geez....you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.
Get out, make as much $$ as you can, gain experience, make connections...and then, start making your moves up the line where you have time to consider perks, etc.
Jobs aren't meant to be fun....otherwise it wouldn't be called work...
You must be a great person to be around, because with an attitude like that, you basically end up being "the guy" who sucks any sort of joy and fun out of life. Remember, these people are entering the next phase of their life, and they're going to be spending at least a third of it on work - commuting and actually working. It is not an unreasonable ask to want to not be miserable during this phase of your life and to do something you might find enjoyable, or look forward to.
Working while living at home with Mom and Dad is a thing. It's a way to save money so you can buy your own house. Sure you could rent a crappy apartment and all that, but that's not necessarily the best use of money. Stay with Mom and Dad, help out with household chores, pay your share of the rent, and save. Save for a downpayment on a house or apartment. Save for retirement. Use this time to save.
If you're working for money and nothing else, you might want to rethink what life means to you. You may die a billionaire, but the way you act in your post, you're completely miserable and people wouldn't want to be around you. Sure you'd attract "people" (i.e., gold diggers) but they're not the kind of person you really want in your life, either.
You work to live, not live to work. And not enjoying your work is a sure sign that you need to leave your job and pursue a different career, something that will make you happier in life. Because life is too damn short to be miserable And even the boring parts of the job (because every job has miserable parts) will not seem quite so bad
And yes, it also means being reasonable in life - you can't live a champagne life on a beer budget. But if you work hard (there's no easy shortcut), save up money, you can spend a couple of weeks living the high life
Or perhaps, if your lifestyle is not one of misery and more akin to being happy about what you do, being excited at what a new day brings and look forward in the morning to heading out to work, you'll find out that such luxuries are mere material things.
And here's a truth - retirement isn't all it's cracked up to be. Permanent vacation sounds cool, until you're three weeks into it and bored, and that leads to trouble (usual of the self-destructive lifestyle kind). Plan on returning "back to work" while in retirement - just don't take it too hard - part time a couple of hours a day to keep you busy. The money is no longer important, but the social aspects. And see to it you're taking newcomers to the company and industry under your wing and teaching them as well.
It's hard to do this if you're miserable at work. If you're not happy doing what you're doing and you're doing it for the money, it's time to leave and pursue something new.
Re:Where is MONEY on this list? by Darinbob · 2018-12-11 14:26 · Score: 1

When I was first job hunting, the idea of worrying about what students wanted in a job would have been thought of as silly. What we wanted was a paycheck. We may have had good ideas on the type of jobs we wanted but it never crossed our minds to think about office space layouts or what was stocked in the break room.

Employers focus on what they can easily change by ranton · 2018-12-11 07:05 · Score: 1

The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are professional growth and learning (58%), work/life balance (52%), and having interesting problems to solve (46%), according to a survey of 10,350 student developers worldwide. These far outpaced compensation (18%) and perks (11%), which they view as "nice to haves" rather than deal breakers, the survey found.

Providing growth opportunities, a work/life balance, and interesting problems for new developers to work on is difficult for many companies. Many business problems are simply boring and mundane. The interesting projects are often tackled by more senior staff. Extra pay and silly perks are easy to provide by comparison. The hardest part of my job is ensuring my employees are working on interesting projects they enjoy and are being challenged with. I find it the most important thing for me to get right and is one of my top two priorities (along with Business/IT strategic goal alignment), but it is still very hard.

Good employers are still the ones who can provide those aspects that employees actually care about, but it isn't hard to see why most employers focus on more superficial benefits.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by 110010001000 · 2018-12-11 07:10 · Score: 5, Funny

What about leveraging synergies between business and IT using digital transformation? That should be a high priority for you.
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 07:44 · Score: 1

For CS majors who 'learned everything in school', maintaining a bunch of reports and their associated queries is an 'interesting problem to solve'. Because they need practicals and business knowledge. From the team management side, it's a test...(pass/fail)
Anything more complicated and less spelled out is overwhelming.
I prefer to just not hire them, 'What computer languages did you know when you started college?' answer routes their resumes to the bin.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 08:18 · Score: 1

I don't care what you believe. Because you are a moron.
I don't grow acres, I grow 6 plants (most years) for personal use. Everybody I know gets free pot. Everybody I know that grew pot for a living has stopped, market is glutted.
I also own 3 atom bombs, if you're looking for bullshit to callout.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 08:41 · Score: 1

For recent grads, if the answer is 'none' then the resume goes into the trash where it belongs.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by tepples · 2018-12-11 11:33 · Score: 1

If someone lacked consistent access to an end-user-programmable computer with which to learn a programming language until enrolling in university, what should he or she do to earn his or her first relevant work experience?
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 12:04 · Score: 1

Don't know. Maybe code something? Maybe take a job as IT support.
If someone lacked access to a musical instrument, what should he or she do to earn his place in a philharmonic orchestra? Maybe, learn to play?
I don't think your question is realistic. It's not 1970. They likely didn't lack access, they lacked interest. Without a sincere interest, even if they get in, they will be miserable and mediocre.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by tepples · 2018-12-11 13:06 · Score: 1

I don't think your question is realistic. It's not 1970. They likely didn't lack access, they lacked interest.
Say you're 14, and you have a hand-me-down iPhone, a game console, and interest in learning how to program a computer. What's your next step?
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 13:27 · Score: 1

Accepting someones cast off computer, paving it over with a fresh OS install then picking a up any language. There are many other options, but that one is close to free.
I washed dishes for two summers to pay for my first PC. Today, you can't give away much better computers, nobody wants them.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change by _Sharp'r_ · 2018-12-11 14:35 · Score: 1

Sell the iphone and the game console and buy an inexpensive computer and stick one (or more) of the many free computer programming environments on it after checking with someone knowledgeable about how to do that.

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The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.

Senior Developers want the same by Shotgun · 2018-12-11 07:09 · Score: 1

It is my experience that senior developers want the same things.

After doing this for 20 years, I don't care about video games at work, or anything else you are trying to use to keep me there. I'm going to work to work, and when I'm done I'm going home to have fun. All the companies pay in the same ballpark, and I'm paid enough to afford my own lunch.

Give me something to work on that isn't going to completely bore me to death.

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Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba

Re: Senior Developers want the same by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 07:47 · Score: 1

Once you've been at this for a while, you can smell the bad managers pretty much as soon as you walk into the office.
No they won't fire them, they are in denial. Just don't take that job. The time to burn a bridge is _before_ you've crossed it.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Senior Developers want the same by zarmanto · 2018-12-11 08:00 · Score: 1

After doing this for 20 years, I don't care about video games at work...
Video games at work?!? OH -- wait: you must be referring to the standard suite of network load testing tools. ...
I'm only somewhat joking, here; that's actually what my team called it, back when I was working internal tech support for a large-shall-remain-unnamed-company. Yeah... good times.
But of course, eventually real life demands that we move on to a job that actually pays the bills. (Sigh.)
Re: Senior Developers want the same by Holi · 2018-12-11 09:49 · Score: 1

How about no. You are fresh out of school, what kind of negotiating position do you think you have?

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Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Re: Senior Developers want the same by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 09:56 · Score: 1

The tool choice, the managers themselves, the work environment and the unspoken language of the staff.
IT is 'overhead', run away.
Javascript anywhere but in a browser, run away. Idiots are making technical decisions there.
No formal source control, unit testing or bug tracking, run away. Same as last.
Claims of 'agility', but obvious shitty, low pay team and scrum, run away. Self deluded, Agile explicitly says 'people over process'. Shitty teams just can't do agile, they do scrum or some other rigid 'agile' process ('cargo cult agile') instead.
Ignorant and proud of it, run away.
Hopelessness in the eyes of the most competent of the staff or just no competent staff, run away.
Broken performance metrics.
The big one: Constant firefighting, reacting not planning, RUN AWAY!.
The main thing though, is the manner of the competent staff. Identify those that have clues, watch their faces. Listen carefully.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'

They want to learn a real programming language by xack · 2018-12-11 07:13 · Score: 1

Instead of memescript and meme basic.

Money by aglider · 2018-12-11 07:13 · Score: 1

And a full lot of it.

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Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.

Be grateful by trevc · 2018-12-11 07:16 · Score: 1

They should be grateful somebody is willing to give them a chance.

What you really want by 110010001000 · 2018-12-11 07:23 · Score: 1

What you really want is to get hired by a pre-IPO company, assuming that is still a thing.

I could make more, or keep working from home by raymorris · 2018-12-11 07:34 · Score: 2

I could make 50% more by switching jobs to one that has crappy work-life balance and is unpleasant.
Or I could stay at my current job where I work from home instead of sitting in traffic, while doing exactly what I most love to do - mentoring programmers in security.

If you're reading this from the US, you're probably already in the top 2% highest-earning people in the world. Most Americans in IT are already 2%ers. You're already rich, no matter what Nancy Pelosi tells you. Getting a tiny bit richer isn't going to change your life much.

* Rich in terms of income. If you spend your money on Starbucks instead of slowly building wealth, that's na different kind of rich that has nothing to do with your job.

Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by BringsApples · 2018-12-11 07:46 · Score: 1

If you're reading this from the US, you're probably already in the top 2% highest-earning people in the world.
Citation needed. ;)

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Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 07:58 · Score: 1

34k$US/year puts you in the top 1% of world incomes.
You can make that with no school, an A+ cert and a bad attitude.
I'll grant there are a lot of people who apparently got lost on the net and ended up on /.
I'd amend the GPs claim: 'If you're reading this from the US and understand, you're probably already in the top 1% highest-earning people in the world.'

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re: I could make more, or keep working from home by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-11 08:12 · Score: 1

Not if your basic living expenses exceed $32K / year. The formula isn't complicated, but it is better to make $12K / year with $6K / year overhead than 32K /year with 33K / year overhead.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 08:24 · Score: 1

The point is that they ARE rich by world standards. You should travel.
By world standards you can be poor or fat, but not both. In America we spend a billion a year on free obesity related health care for the 'poors'.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by dcw3 · 2018-12-11 08:27 · Score: 1

https://www.indeed.com/salarie...
$70,573, not bad considering the median wage in the US in 2017 was ~$44k
https://www.thebalancecareers....

--
Just another day in Paradise
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by youngone · 2018-12-11 08:39 · Score: 1

'If you're reading this from the US...
And then you get sick and find your crappy employer supplied health insurance doesn't cover as much as you thought it did, and you're either bankrupt or dead.
Re: I could make more, or keep working from home by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-11 08:44 · Score: 1

You are creating a false narrative as I never stated what does or does not fall into the category. I prefer not to even try to have intelligent discourse with people who decide to speak for me in ways that make their case (or otherwise), so please go have your discussions with yourself elsewhere. Thanks.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 09:15 · Score: 1

$34k/person year is well above the poverty line in the USA. Sure it won't get you every zip code, but so what?
Also, full circle, if you are reading /. and make $34k, you should spend less time posting the same stupid shit, over and over.
By world standards the poor remain on the edge of starvation.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re: I could make more, or keep working from home by tepples · 2018-12-11 10:02 · Score: 1

Is living within reasonable cycling distance of your workplace a "luxury want"?
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 10:25 · Score: 1

Goalpost move noted. Don't have kids you can't afford! Duh.
34k/person year is above the poverty line, in the bay area you'll be living at the far end of BART and sharing an apartment. So what?

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 13:05 · Score: 1

Mexican per capita income is about $50/day.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 14:04 · Score: 1

Talk when you leave Clearlake.
I'm a dual citizen, I can work anywhere in the USA or the EU. That really has to annoy you.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:I could make more, or keep working from home by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 14:07 · Score: 1

Half the 1% rate is average for Mexico, 60k$ is well above average for the USA. You don't know what you are talking about.
Mexico isn't all that broke globally.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re: I could make more, or keep working from home by _Sharp'r_ · 2018-12-11 14:28 · Score: 1

The average people in Africa and Asia walk to get water on a daily basis is 6k/3.7miles.
So yeah, a lifestyle where you're concerned about "living within reasonable cycling distance of your workplace" is a luxury in this world.

--
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.

Do they want to work past 43? by Micah+NC · 2018-12-11 07:46 · Score: 1

Sorry your degree is only good for 18 years then you need a commercial truck driver license.

Don't confuse the means with the ends by raymorris · 2018-12-11 07:47 · Score: 1

> you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.
> Get out, make as much $$ as you can

You're confusing the ends with the means. Money is something I use to take care of my family. My family is the purpose. I work to put gas in my jetski, because riding the jetski is fun. A pile of money, of itself, doesn't make your life better or more fulfilling.

If you give up your family life in exchange for more money, you're doing it backwards. You're sacrificing the goal to get the method.

As I said before, if you're reading this from the US, you're probably already in the top 2% highest-earning people in the world. You already make enough money. You might spend too much, but you earn more than 98% of people do - the money part is already taken care of. If you're totally sacrificing quality of life trying to get just a little more money, you're really missing out.

> Jobs aren't meant to be fun....otherwise it wouldn't be called work...

Imagine if your job WAS fun. Imagine getting pumped up by your work, doing something that gets you kinda excited. I've discovered that when I do something I'm excited about, I also do a better job than when I'm just punching the clock. If you pick three things that you enjoy, somebody has a job that combines two of your three favorite things. Somebody like technology and they like naked women - okay, I made good money doing tech for the porn industry. Now I do work that's even more fun.

> otherwise it wouldn't be called work...

If you look up "work" in the dictionary, it doesn't mean "unpleasant". Here's the dictionary definition of "work":
--
Work (noun)
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
--

The definition of work is being active for a purpose.
A purpose, by the way, also happens to be what makes an activity fulfilling. If you spend 9-5 doing something that seems to be without purpose, you may not be working at all. You're doing something, but it doesn't meet the definition of work. Work is defined as activity with a purpose.

Re:Don't confuse the means with the ends by oh_my_080980980 · 2018-12-11 08:17 · Score: 1

If you don't have enough to to pay the rent, provide for your family, and retire, what kind of life do you have...

Again, without people stating what they make and what their standard of living is, all your comments are bullshit.

A job is about making money and paying the bills. Period. Beyond a certain income, you can get philosophical.

Past generations knew they had to work hard, and give things up in order to provide. That's the compromise. That's never changed.
Re:Don't confuse the means with the ends by NormalVisual · 2018-12-11 08:25 · Score: 1

If you're totally sacrificing quality of life trying to get just a little more money, you're really missing out.
No argument there, but one should also bear in mind that they money you make and save *now* is worth more than what you'll make later in life due to the magic of compound interest and returns on investment. As with so many things in life, finding a good balance between money and a decent work environment is important.

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Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:Don't confuse the means with the ends by R3d+M3rcury · 2018-12-11 10:53 · Score: 1

You're somewhat taking the extreme side here...
You're not entirely wrong, mind you. Yes, I don't want to live in a crappy apartment and eat Ramen noodles all the time in order to work on really cool stuff. Conversely, I don't care if they pay me a big wad of money if I'm doing something that doesn't allow me to grow and learn new things.
But there is a happy medium out there, believe it or not, where they will pay you a reasonable amount and you sometimes get to do some interesting things.
Re:Don't confuse the means with the ends by cayenne8 · 2018-12-11 11:20 · Score: 1

Conversely, I don't care if they pay me a big wad of money if I'm doing something that doesn't allow me to grow and learn new things.
While of course you'd rather work a fun job....that usually isn't the case.
If they paid me a LARGE enough wad of money, I'd have no problem whatsoever doing that and not growing....as that I can have a LOT of fun in my time with the large wad of money doing things I like to do and want to do.

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Don't confuse the means with the ends by R3d+M3rcury · 2018-12-11 15:28 · Score: 1

One thing I always tell people is, "Figure out what you like to do. Then figure out a way to make money doing that."
If I'm going to spend eight hours a day, five days a week doing something, it better be something I enjoy doing. Now, I'll admit that I'm lucky--I get to do something I enjoy and make pretty good money doing it.
It's not that easy to do. Sure, it sounds easy--"I like to surf!" But how do you make money knowing how to surf? Well, you can compete, which is one way. But are you good enough to win contests? Are you good enough to get endorsement deals and the like? Because if you're not, that's not going to work. So you might look into surf shops. You might look into teaching. You might look into working for a bigger company that sells surfing equipment. Those all require different skills beyond just surfing.

If they paid me a LARGE enough wad of money, I'd have no problem whatsoever doing that and not growing...
Which is a perfectly reasonable short term view. The problem becomes, "What If You Lose That Job?"
At the risk of being ageist, I've known a few older programmers who don't want to learn anything new. They were making good money and just biding their time until they get to retirement age. They haven't kept up with the latest technology but they're pretty smart about the older product line--indispensable even. Then the company develops something new and they drop the old product line and here's our old employee out on the street. He made good money for awhile and he was a few years short of being able to comfortably retire. Now what? His skill set is antique and he can't find any work--even for a couple of years.
And that can happen really quickly in the tech world. So you're young and you're working that kind of job. You're making good money. Then all that goes away--the company goes belly-up or something. All you have to show for the last several years is a pile of money which certainly won't last forever. You now have to use that pile for things like food and gas and healthcare and, probably, learning something new because you didn't care about how your current position set you up for your next job. As long as they gave you a big hunk of money, you were happy.

I say BS by OneHundredAndTen · 2018-12-11 07:48 · Score: 1

By and large, they are clearly answering what they think the ought to answer, or else what they think those commissioning the survey want to hear. It reminds me of those surveys in which people are asked how many times they have sex a year, the average answer being once every other day. You wish.

Re:I say BS by techno-vampire · 2018-12-11 12:00 · Score: 1

The proper answer to that question of course is, "None of your business." The best might be, "Who counts?"

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Good, inexpensive web hosting
Re:I say BS by avandesande · 2018-12-11 12:01 · Score: 1

A job with good management, a well functioning team, interesting work and decent compensation is priceless.

--
love is just extroverted narcissism

None of the Comp Sci majors are ready by The+Snazster · 2018-12-11 07:49 · Score: 1

None of the Comp Sci majors I have ever been given were ready to work on my real world projects right after they graduated (not even as code monkeys). In every case I had to take a passel of time to teach them what they had to know to even start to be useful.

Re:None of the Comp Sci majors are ready by dcw3 · 2018-12-11 08:47 · Score: 1

This.
CS in college (when I went 80s- early 90s night school) taught us nothing about configuration management. It taught us nothing about requirements. It taught us nothing about architecture. It taught us nothing about design. It taught us nothing about integration, and extremely little about testing.
For me, all of that came from working at a F500 company via OJT.

--
Just another day in Paradise

Re:CS grads that don't code anything by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 07:51 · Score: 1

I've met them too. Most useless people anywhere.

If someone can't code when a HS senior, they need to give up on CS. The ship has sailed. They are like an aspiring classical musician who waited until college to pick up an instrument.

Only exception is someone growing up in an environment with no available computers, say the 1950s or rural sub saharan Africa.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'

Advancement is a waste by jd · 2018-12-11 07:53 · Score: 1

Skills should be utilized and heirarchies squished. Labels are what you buy at the supermarket.

Work/life is fair, except that work that's disjoint from life will always be second rate.

A challenge is the only thing that keeps you going. A job is where you should be paid to learn as much, if not more, than to actually do.

Programmers who study and design make fewer mistakes, so if you want a decent product, don't let the programmers near a machine until they have the software on paper.

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It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)

I have found problems get more interesting by chispito · 2018-12-11 07:56 · Score: 1

Let's look at number three:

having interesting problems to solve

These students have it backwards, but I didn't get it when I was a student either. Do not look for a job in an interesting industry, or that is solving "interesting problems." Look for a job with good compensation, and with good people who value your skills. Then the problems they bring you will be interesting because solving them helps you and helps the people you work with, whom you like. Work for good people and they will also support you in growth and work/life balance.

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The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!

Re:Those seem like pretty good goals - one caveat by lgw · 2018-12-11 07:57 · Score: 2

Schools have gotten somewhat better in equipping students to actually code. "Teaching languages" are mostly a thing of the past now, and most students seem to be taught in some combination of Java and JS, which sets you up for more than half the coding jobs out there.

Also, I think you'll find the people who are self-motivated to "learn new languages or techniques all the time" are the ones who separate from the pack over the first decade. The rest ... don't, and remain at a mid-career job title their whole career. At least, I've never worked any place where half the engineers were senior.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

50% income can still be a lower factor by SuperKendall · 2018-12-11 08:08 · Score: 1

The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less

That's true up to a baseline. But for example. I expressly chose not to live in California although I could have easily had more than a 50% boost in salary... I make enough that I am fine not making as much as I could.

I could see someone just out of school taking a position with a small startup that was working on something really cool, and making even 75% less than they might going to Facebook for example. And that would probably be a good choice (in general I would say working for a smaller company is going to be a better choice for anyone with ambition and a desire to have a good career)

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Survey Questions/Data Collected, US Context by eepok · 2018-12-11 08:09 · Score: 1

1. How did you learn to code?
2. Besides HackerRank, which of these platforms do you use to learn how to code?
3. Which languages do employers need?
4. Which languages do students know?
5. Which languages do students plan to learn next?
6. Which frameworks do employers need?
7. Which frameworks do student developers know?

8. What do student developers want most in a job?
Option (Global % / US %), +/- US Diff
- Professional Growth & Learning (57.8 / 45.0), -13.8
- Good Work-Life Balance (52.2 / 52.9), +0.7
- Interesting Problems to Solve (45.9 / 43.0), -2.9
- Smart People/Team (43.3 / 37.0), -6.3
- Company Culture (32.3 / 44.9), +12.6
- Company Mission (19.9 / 17.8), -2.1
- Compensation (18.4 / 34.7), +16.3
- Impact with Product (16.6 / 14.3), -2.3
- Preferred Tech Stack (15.3 / 23.9), +8.6
- Perks (10.5 / 15.1), +4.6
- Proximity to Where You Live (8.9 / 7.4), -1.5
- Stability from a Large Company (8.7 / 11.1), +2.4
- Funding and Valuation (5.8 / 3.4), -2.4

9. What does work-life balance mean to U.S. students?

Re:CS grads that don't code anything by skovnymfe · 2018-12-11 08:09 · Score: 1

What? Everyone should code. More code. MORE CODE!

Answer by dcw3 · 2018-12-11 08:11 · Score: 1

Answer: Pay off their student loans.

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Just another day in Paradise

Book Larnin' by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2018-12-11 08:15 · Score: 2

"For many student developers, a computer science degree is not enough to teach them the skills they will need in the workforce, the report found."

If they're anything like me, what the school courses will have done is just teach them various languages' syntax. I didn't really "learn" how to write code until I had to actually use it to accomplish various tasks (mostly on the job).

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#DeleteChrome

Re: Those seem like pretty good goals - one caveat by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-11 08:16 · Score: 1

If you believe Java, and the completely unrelated JavaScript languages comprise half the IT work "out there" then you are woefully ignorant.

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Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

Re:Those seem like pretty good goals - one caveat by NormalVisual · 2018-12-11 08:20 · Score: 1

The rest ... don't, and remain at a mid-career job title their whole career. At least, I've never worked any place where half the engineers were senior.

On the other hand, my current position is at a place where there are a lot of engineering disciplines represented (software, aerospace, mechanical, electrical, and even chemical and metallurgical Ph.D.s are quite common), but most of the engineers prefer to stay at their senior-level positions instead of going into management because they're true geeks and like tinkering with stuff rather than being in meetings all the time - we have an official "individual contributor" career track in addition to "management". Our yearly interns are usually quite sharp as well, and tend to migrate towards the same kind of career path. I also work with a lot guys that have been with the company upwards of 40 years.

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Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas

Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by SuperKendall · 2018-12-11 08:24 · Score: 2

If you believe Java, and the completely unrelated JavaScript languages comprise half the IT work "out there" then you are woefully ignorant.

I don't do Java anymore myself, but I used to do Java for many years as an enterprise developer - if you lumped Java and Javascript together (which I agree are unrelated except by name) I think that would be around half of all IT work you'd find in most companies today - especially so with Javascript which has really gained a pretty widespread use for server development...

If you wanted to work in IT I'm honestly not sure what would be a better choice at this point, maybe Python... .Net is always big of course but that's a little too tied to a specific platform (in terms of how it's used in real companies) for my tastes.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-11 08:37 · Score: 2

It is *absurd* to even suggest such a thing. All web development doesn't even account for anywhere close to half the work in IT. Have you never heard of embedded systems? C, C++, C# and so many other languages too numerous to list?

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Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by lgw · 2018-12-11 09:05 · Score: 2

You said "IT Work", which is almost an unrelated field to software development engineer jobs these days. I don't think you meant "help desk and system admins" but that's what "IT works" means these days.
You said "Web development", but did you mean "UI work", or "stuff that has a remotely-callable API"? The latter is most Java code, though coding for Android has started to shift that balance a bit.
If you know Java, you can usually get hired for a C# job (and vice versa), especially straight out of college. Looking at job post statistics on Indeed for the https://www.codingdojo.com/blo...>past year
* 93k - Java + C#
* 46k - Python
* 38K - JS
* 31K - C++
Python is often a "nice to have" in job postings, so it's somewhat misleading. C++ shops generally want more veteran talent IME, as the kind of stuff still done in C++ isn't generally the kind of stuff someone fresh out of college is going to do well, regardless of the language.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by lgw · 2018-12-11 09:07 · Score: 1

Grr, fixed link: https://www.codingdojo.com/blo...

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-11 10:30 · Score: 1

Er, no, I didn't say that; you did. You, like the idiot Superkendall, want to advance your own definition of IT. All software development is IT work.

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Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by lgw · 2018-12-11 10:46 · Score: 1

Well, that was the common usage 20 years ago, the be sure, These days, not so much, but it's not germane to the point, I think. If you're talking about non-sysadmin jobs, Java and JS give you experience with the languages needed for most dev jobs these days.
For all Java has grown old and hairy, nothing has emerged to replace it. People are seriously doing server-side JS, odd as that is.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-12 15:43 · Score: 1

The definition hasn't changed. Web development is a very small subset of IT work, thus your confusion.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

"These far outpaced compensation (18%)" by Johnberg · 2018-12-11 08:25 · Score: 1

Fools!

Re:Journos and Editors can't math by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 08:36 · Score: 1

No imposing heteronormative, patriarchal addition rules you fascist!

They're doing number flexable feminist social justice math. You should support them silently.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'

Re:CS grads that don't code anything by HornWumpus · 2018-12-11 08:50 · Score: 1

If you could code, you could replace yourself with a simple 'script'. But timestamps show you are sitting there in your impotence, waiting to cut and paste, again.

Never change!

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'

Re:Those seem like pretty good goals - one caveat by lgw · 2018-12-11 09:12 · Score: 1

I'm talking only about people who stay engineers, and the world of software development, not the more mature world of engineering in general. It's rare to see more than 1 in 5 developers at a manager-equivalent pay grade; heck 1 in 10 is more common at a lot of places (and that's the minimum for a "senior engineer" job to be more than a bogus title). Most people don't develop the breadth of skills to rise above a mid-career pay grade (below the average manager). And since the field pays well, most people are OK with that.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

Software Engineering degree by raymorris · 2018-12-11 09:21 · Score: 1

We're talking about people will a software engineering degree. Their income will be about three times what's needed to pay the rent, put food on the table, etc.

> If you don't have enough to to pay the rent, provide for your family, and retire, what kind of life do you have...

That's not the people we're talking about. At least, not in terms of income - you said "have" rather than "earn". If you have a software engineering degree and consistently don't have enough money to pay the rent, you probably have a spend problem, not a salary problem. The phrase is "put food on the table", not "tip the waitress who put food on the table". If you're a software engineer and don't have enough money to eat, there's a good chance you should check out the inside of a grocery store and forget where your favorite restaurant is.

True, that's 95% of millionaires by raymorris · 2018-12-11 09:25 · Score: 1

True, over 90% of millionaires made less than $100k - they invested over time, and earned returns on their returns on their returns. The time factor in investment is huge - investing early makes a HUGE difference.

That said, it's also easy to lose track of the real purpose and pursue money, so if you're working hard now and foregoing spending in order to retire at age 45, remember that's your goal. Don't be working 60 hours a week when you're 50 in order to get more money, after you already have $2 million.

Is it not absurd to claim embedded work is IT work by SuperKendall · 2018-12-11 10:22 · Score: 1

Have you never heard of embedded systems? C, C++, C# and so many other languages too numerous to list?

I've done some embedded systems work myself, and know C and C++ well (well I used to know C++ well but I think enough time as passed I may be cured).

However that has nothing at all to do with IT programming.

Even if it did, the number of embedded systems and OS programmers is way less than web developers so probably including that would not change percentages...

Game development is a whole other world.

All web development doesn't even account for anywhere close to half the work in IT.

But again, we are talking about IT work, which includes not just web dev but backend work. As I said, a lot of that has moved to Javascript these days when it's not Java.

I did mention C#, that's more specific to companies that are all MS stack though, and may make up the remaining 50% (not sure about that though).

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re: Is it not absurd to claim embedded work is IT by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-11 10:28 · Score: 1

I see. You are right as long as we redefine the scope of IT to be "only those things that make you right." Nobody can argue with that (lack of) logic.

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Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

"having interesting problems to solve (46%)" by Stormy+Dragon · 2018-12-11 10:52 · Score: 1

If work were interesting, you'd be paying your boss to do it instead of them paying you to do it.

More detail for you by SuperKendall · 2018-12-11 10:53 · Score: 1

No, I am not saying anything about who is right, simply saying that most people consider IT work to be development work done for large companies.

I have worked in a variety of companies, large and small. While it is true 30 years ago I was doing C and C++ for general development work in companies.

But in the last ten years the work large companies are doing is way more in Java and C# than C++ - or especially C, which is used in hardware development but not nearly so much any more for general operations programming... You would be insane these days to do much backend work in lower level languages.

Perhaps you have had different experiences, I relate what I have seen personally and also what I know from a large array of friends across the country who work in IT for large companies, none of them are doing C/C++...

I'll let you have the last response, because you simply seem to want to disagree without any proof - not even anecdotal! I guess you just like to argue, but I don't have the time to explain any further that which is plain if you just look around.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:More detail for you by Zero__Kelvin · 2018-12-12 15:41 · Score: 1

Your first paragraph advances a claim so absurd, and with no factual basis, that there really is no point in trying to have intelligent discourse with you.

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Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

Real world check about to happen by johnlcallaway · 2018-12-12 00:30 · Score: 1

The best and brightest who have already proven themselves get those things. The rest of you get the crap jobs that the rest of us used to do. Somebody has to do them, and it's usually the new guy.

I had to laugh when I read about 'career advancement' and 'learning opportunities'. Every company I've ever worked with has tuition reimbursement, if you don't use it, that's your fault. The only obligation the company has regarding career advancement is to let everyone know that one job has just opened. If someone is too lazy to not apply for it, or they don't have the skills to get it because they didn't use the tuition reimbursement program, it's their fault. Not the company.

What they really want is all-expense paid trips to some conference somewhere so they can attend a 4-hour class and eat on the company dime. Been there, the only real value in those is networking so I can find another job.

What these naive wannabe-developers don't get is you learn more useful and long-term concepts from the crap jobs than the 'interesting' jobs. Like how to deal with office politics and how to suffer through work you don't like because your boss tells you too. Those are skills that last a lifetime instead of some shiny new tool-toy that will be replaced in a year when someone new gets hired and pushes the only tool they know how to use on everyone else because they are too stupid to learn anything new. Even though it's old and works just fine to those already using it.

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I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.

Reluctance to hire children under 16 by tepples · 2018-12-12 07:10 · Score: 1

Say you're 14, and you have [no] computer.

I washed dishes for two summers to pay for my first PC.

Someone may not be able to follow you in that if his or her parents and principal aren't willing to sign his or her work permit, which the law requires of all workers under 18 at least in my home state. (Source: Indiana DOL: Child Labor FAQs) The excuse my own parents gave for denying me a work permit was "Your education is your job. You need to concentrate on that." The aforementioned FAQ document also mentions that "schools have total discretion to refuse or revoke a work permit based on poor academics or attendance," and I doubt that most high school students have a 4.0 (A) average and perfect attendance for the entire preceding school year.

In addition, someone may not be able to follow you in that if all restaurants within walking distance have a blanket policy not to offer jobs to minors under 16 because all available positions have at least one duty that federal and/or state labor laws prohibit for children under 16. (Source: Indiana DOL: Prohibited and Hazardous Occupations for Minors) For example, a fast food restaurant may give the duty you mentioned (washing trays) to someone who also has the duty of cooking, and the law requires those who cook to be 16.

Re:Reluctance to hire children under 16 by HornWumpus · 2018-12-13 07:19 · Score: 1

I forged my first work papers. At the time, you had to be 16 to legally work. 18 to work on school nights. Fuck that. They've got things EASY with scanners and laser printers common.
Useful a couple of years later, when I made some money making fake IDs for my classmates.
The point is they no longer need to collect two grand+ to buy a computer. Useable computers are available for $50 at thrift stores. All day long. They can easily skip the tedious dishwashing for minimum wage thing.

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John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'

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