Some Chinese Companies Are Giving Employees Incentives For Buying Huawei Devices or Just Giving Them One and Boycotting Apple (nikkei.com)

A growing number of Chinese companies are throwing their support behind Huawei Technologies following the recent arrest of its chief financial officer in Canada, taking such steps as offering subsidies for staff who buy the telecom equipment maker's smartphones. From a report: Many Chinese businesses have told employees they will receive subsidies if they buy Huawei smartphones to aid the company. Most are subsidizing 10% to 20% of the purchase price, with some even covering the full amount. Over 20 Chinese companies also took to social media to announce that they will increase purchases of other Huawei products, such as its business management system.

The show of support has been broad, from information technology providers to food companies. A regional government official said that several hundred businesses were conducting such programs nationwide. Electronics maker Shanghai Youluoke Electronic and Technology is fully subsidizing up to two Huawei smartphones per employee, while display equipment maker Shenzhen Yidaheng Technology will cover 18% of the price for Huawei or ZTE units. Fuchun Technology, a communications service company listed on Shenzhen Stock Exchange announced on social media on Dec. 11 that it would give each of its 200 employees who buy Huawei's smartphone before the end of 2018 between 100 and 500 yuan ($14.5 to $72.5).

Comments

Re:News for nerds, stuff that matters

[webmistressrachel]

Speak for yourself, troll; if you want something so mundane as tech changes to the kernel, there's a site for that: kernel.org.

The rest of us like /. so deal with it or check out Soylent. ;-)

The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[rtb61]

The problem with the arrest and subsequent political press releases is pretty much does make it a threat to all Chinese people and all Chinese companies. There was a surged in racism against Chinese in US comments and those would have been picked up on as well. They tend to be conformist and authoritarian and the mob reaction to this event was bound to spread. How much and how severely entirely up to the Chinese government but some will occur. It was really a bad idea by the US establishment and will have long term ramifications against US and Canadian citizens and companies in China, it will have the odour of trying to force colonial rule back on China and the Chinese living in China, it will not go down well and will last quite a long time. Just low grade idiots our of their depth playing stupid games, that other people will end up paying the price for. Yeah, it is going to fester for quite some number of years, from US or Canada probably smart to go elsewhere rather than China, your very unlikely to receive warnings for petty crimes and likely to receive the harshest penalties, not by orders from the top, just spread sentiment to each little point of authority all the way down the system.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[stephanruby]

Not only that, but now the little white lie "It's ok, I'm Canadian." won't work anymore.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[Ogive17]

Doing business in China already sucks. You basically must bribe the government with a 50% share of any company that wants to do business in China.

It sucks because of the 1.2 billion (or more) potential consumers.. but giving half your profits and all your technology to the Chinese gov't is not a smart plan.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

China is an expansionist Han-Nationalist ethnostate. They are not shy about their desires to see Han-Chinese be the dominant world power and undesirables sent to "reeducation" camps that already exist.

Supporting or defending China is like supporting Nazi Germany and should be punished the same way.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[Jane Q. Public]

This is nonsense.

Hauwei, One Plus, and ZTE phones were all caught spying on their owners and sending the data back home to China. And no, it's not the same as Facebook or Google. This is at the firmware level.

You may know that those companies have been banned for government use for a while now.

There is nothing "racist" or political about it. Companies that spy on people â" no matter who they are or where they're from â" are not welcome. Hauwei's CFO is apparently guilty of arranging trade with Iran in violation of U.S. trade sanctions, and lying about it. That's yet another concern.

Stop with the U.S-bashing already. There was perfectly good reason to do this.

THIS was from last February, in case you don't keep up with the news.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[rtb61]

That is the impression I am getting. Sure they will hire them, as front people for image sake but they do not want them running anything, a solid hold over from the colonialism era and the Government of China reaches for that when ever it wants to (especially in the rest of the world and then the US government arrogantly pipes in and makes it worse for themselves). Reality is still reality and it is what must be dealt with, offending US sensibilities by pointing out how the Chinese will react in China, well, toughen the fuck up, people in other countries perceive the same things differently.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[rtb61]

You have to apologise to Canadians when you get it wrong in Australia, they get offended, see it in their face in an instant. Although it is a fun way to stir up Canadians in Australia, just be quick on the apology and the smile and agree with what ever is their USA sentiment.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[DNS-and-BIND]

If it only affects members of a single minority group, it is indeed racist. Racism isn't about intent. It's also about outcomes. Racism can occur without anyone having to be a racist - or without someone being actively prejudiced against a person of color. Shutting down racist, sexist, and similar conversations protects vulnerable participants.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[thegarbz]

If you think that's bad, just imagine how horrible things are in the USA, who have openly been caught spying on their own people, their own allies, and even worse imposing unilateral sanctions against a country for no reason and then arranging their allies to arrest foreign nationals because they are having a tempera tantrum that no one is listening to them.

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[DNS-and-BIND]

Says the man from the country that invented Jim Crow laws and used nuclear weapons against POC. How many illegal wars are you in right now?

Re:The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[DigiShaman]

We are in a Cold War with China. All of this you see going on is leveraging power and control in either preparation or as part of a broader planned 'kinetic' response in and around the Pacific.

Re: The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[edris90]

Yabba all the phones we have in the US do the same thing they just send the information somewhere else. Firmware level on a phone is no different than Windows running on a PC. Firmware these days holds an entire OS, abstraction layers apis. It's not the hard to modify bare metal hand assembly tuned code of the old days.. in the old days your firmware was on a read-only chip that bootstrap the OS from somewhere else.

Re: The Arrest an Attack up all Chinese

[edris90]

Racism absolutely is a measure of intent. What you're doing is trying to avoid testing for false positives guy trying to make a subjective social Construct, a universal objective aspect of physical interaction. Racism exists as a product of interpretation. Deeper down it's just animals reacting to things that are different with suspicion because it's part of the low-level processes that give us the ability to process information in the first place.

i for one say good.

[nimbius]

disclosure: im an american.

our countries rationale for blacklisting huawei are shady at best:
1. spooky chinese government Does not hold water. Literally every tplink, every cisco, every netgear, and every D-Link are made in China. millions of routers and switches already run on hardware built in or under the direct supervision of the PRC. We've snored through 40 years of offshoring to China and now the government is somehow insisting just this one vendor is a big issue? unlikely.
2.Violation of ITAR: the federal legal statute that prevents you from selling Hitler a router. If you sell to iran -- which Huawei allegedly did -- then you're going to pay a fine. google "ITAR violations" and youll see a litany of various US owned and operated companies that have violated ITAR including Bluecoat and Symantec. Its virtually impossible not to violate it. not once did the US arrest a CEO of any of the ITAR violating companies and request their extradition. In every single case, A fine was paid and business resumed as usual. these companies did not even legally have to admit fault.

so what is the REAL reason we cant have huawei? is it because the Honor 10 is so damned good compared to the iPhone? No,..
The worry is that China will get widespread 5G coverage before the US does, which will allow it to accelerate the development of specific 5G-reliant technologies, like self-driving cars. With the help of Huaweis equipment, China would displace Silicon Valley as the worlds innovation center.

Re:i for one say good.

[Fly Swatter]

5G-reliant technologies, like self-driving cars

Really?

Re:i for one say good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Important words there are: "which Huawei allegedly did"

If there's proof present it in court, otherwise this just sounds like US companies leveraging the government to bad mouth a competitor.

Put up or shut up, for a country that supposedly believes in the free market there's a lot of what looks like political kneecapping going on here.

 

Re:i for one say good.

[Anonymous Coward]

The worry is that China will get widespread 5G coverage before the US does, which will allow it to accelerate the development of specific 5G-reliant technologies, like self-driving cars. With the help of Huaweis equipment, China would displace Silicon Valley as the worlds innovation center.

It's unlikely that Trump himself is forward thinking enough for any elaborate plot to delay Chinese development. Certainly the Chinese are guilty of IP theft, one way, or another. It is certainly possible that there are people in the Trump administration using legal manoeuvres to advocate for certain positions. That's the ultimate problem. Everyone is supposed to be equal under the law, and while that has never been true, it now seems even less true.

Ultimately I understand James Comey's motivation to release what he did on Clinton. He was going with the equal justice under law without regards that his words probably changed the outcome of an election when he had no new information. Still that situation is preferable to wondering whether the next time our government has someone picked up, if there is a political motivation for it.

Re:i for one say good.

[Jeremy Erwin]

The basis of the complaint seems to be:

HSBC is obligated to follow US sanctions policy. If it facilitates transactions with Iran, it's subject to fines and prosecution. It is also obligated to perform a certain amount of due diligence with its clients to ensure that it does not violate US law.

Huawei does business with Iran through Skycom.

When HSBC asked Huawei about the ownership and control of Skycom, Meng Wanzhou characterized Skycom as an independent company-- when in fact, it was a subsidiary. This can be characterized as bank fraud. It might well have exposed HSBC to serious criminal liability.

First of all, according to the affidavit described at Meng’s Vancouver bail hearing, Meng is being charged with bank fraud, rather than violating U.S. sanctions on Iran. It is likely that Meng will be charged by the U.S. with violating the bank fraud statute, 18 U.S.C. 1344, which criminalizes any attempt “to defraud a financial institution,” or obtain funds from a “financial institution, by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises.” According to reports describing the U.S. affidavit, Meng is alleged to have personally made a presentation to HSBC claiming that a company doing business with Iran was not controlled by Huawei in violation of U.S. sanctions. If Meng knowingly misled HSBC in order to get some financial benefit or support, this would likely violate the statute—a breach that carries a possible 30-year jail sentence or $1 million fine.

The Detention of Huawei’s CFO is Legally Justified. Why Doesn’t the U.S. Say So?

Re:i for one say good.

[Anonymous Coward]

google "ITAR violations" and youll see a litany of various US owned and operated companies that have violated ITAR including Bluecoat and Symantec. Its virtually impossible not to violate it. not once did the US arrest a CEO of any of the ITAR violating companies and request their extradition. In every single case, A fine was paid and business resumed as usual. these companies did not even legally have to admit fault.

I would throw out that in those cases the companies involved may not have admitted fault, but there's no claims they tried to cover up their ITAR violations. Also, the companies were willing to "work with" the US as far as becoming compliant. The real absurdity of the US is that as long as you have deep pockets and are willing to "work with" them becoming compliant, even if you've repeatedly demonstrated that your current lack of compliance is functionally equivalent to willful ignorance, you'll likely only have to pay a small fine and not admit any wrongdoing.

On the other hand, if you fight the government you will be made an example of and punished harshly. Look at how MS was treated. Plenty of other monopolies have come before the US government and been treated rather cordially. And after MS started playing ball and ponied up lobbying money, suddenly the threat of being broken up disappeared under some notion of impropriety by the first judge. That impropriety, of course, was having that very ruthless desire to punish a company who dared to fight back. Once some palms were greased, that sort of behavior was suddenly considered over the top.

I'm no apologists for MS, Huawei, Bluecoat, or Symantec. It's just patently clear that more than anything, the US is perfectly willing to forgive just about anything a company does for profit with a fine so long as they don't overtly fight them over it. I imagine that if Huawei were to suddenly "cooperate" it would be treated much like Facebook and Google with lots of scowls from Congressmen but functionally little to no actual action. The arrest got Huawei and China's attention. I honestly think the last part was unintended stupidity on the US's part, not realizing the person involved wasn't just some company CFO but a high position Chinese Communist Party member.

Re:i for one say good.

[WindBourne]

Uh no. The reasons for Huawei boycott DOES stand up. The issue is that you will not be shown the full evidence. Ever. Unless you work in the intelligence community. And even then, I doubt it.

And your last paragraph is total nonsense. Ppl like Trump does not give a flying fuck about Silicon Valley. Hell, he is letting iphone plummet against Huawei and not doing anything about it. More importantly, this battle is not from the WH or commerce. It is from the intelligence community. BIG difference.

Re:i for one say good.

[Jane Q. Public]

1) Straw-man argument

Hauwei was caught spying last year, and their products have been doing it ever since. Hauwei, ZTE, and One Plus were all caught doing it. They track everything from selfies to phone calls, and report back to China with the data. That is the reason they are all banned now for government use. It's not speculation, there is proof beyond reasonable doubt.

2) ITAR is irrelevant. That's just another straw-man.

ITAR regulates exports from U.S. businesses. None of those companies are U.S. businesses.

Re:i for one say good.

[AmiMoJo]

You are you going to believe? The US government, which has every reason to lie to hurt Huawei and boost domestic sales, which is known to lie about security stuff all the time (thanks Snowden) and which we know likes to install its own malware in American products. Or Huawei, who are willing to share their source code with governments and big customers, who have a better track record on security than Cisco and who are immune to National Security Letters?

Re:i for one say good.

[DeBaas]

although personally I wouldn't buy Huawei at this moment, the link you provided did not say anything about Huawei being caught spying. The six agency 'expressed distrust' but I didn't see any mention of Huawei being caught spying.

Re:i for one say good.

[WindBourne]

Look. I can not tell you more than I have. However, here is a bit of logic for you. If you are from China, then you are picking the right side and saying the right things.
However, if you are from the west, then ask yourself, who you want listening? Do you want China listening who is in an economic war with the west, or possible America? I can not speak about what we do in Europe, but, O closed rank with most, if not all, of the EU govs after snowden's treason. As such, any spying that America does in Europe, we do with local permission ( obviously VERY high up in any gov). So, with that said, and assuming the worst, who do you want listening (in addition to your gov)? America who is looking for terrorists (and have reported them and stopped a NUMBER of attacks on western nations) OR China, who is using it for economic warfare (steal anything of business value) and will likely use it for warfare when it is to their advantage?

BTW, with all that said, If you mention trump and the fact that we Americans have gone fucking INSANE, then I understand exactly where you are coming from.

Re:i for one say good.

[WindBourne]

a paycheck? No.
I worked with the intelligence community and am aware of what has happened long ago, and still hear things today.

Any westerner believing that Huawei is a none-threat is an idiot.

Re:i for one say good.

[AmiMoJo]

If forced to choose then I'll take Chinese spying. The Chinese can't do much to me, where as the FIVEEYES lot can.

It's a false choice though. Even if we assume that each government backdoors all products originating from that country, you are probably at greater risk from random blackhats. On that front Cisco is one of the worst options.

Re:i for one say good.

[WindBourne]

The Chinese can and do a LOT of damage to you. U just do not realize it.

Re: i for one say good.

[edris90]

To do business in China you have to agree that the Chinese government has permission to assimilate any IP it wishes therefore it cannot be stolen because it's legitimate under the sovereign government of the land. Sovereign locality has complete in Ultimate overriding control what is considered legitimate within its borders. Hey sweet people agreed to pay situational price, and are reneging on it.

Re: i for one say good.

[edris90]

How is Western culture ever going to end unless somebody stamps it out? Jyst cuz you're born into a crap hole with excellent branding, doesn't mean you like it. Western culture, is also malignantly expansive. Western culture has mastered the art of misdirection and branding at the cost of real solutions & sustainable access to quality of life for all. Basically it has failed, continue to exploit countless lives for the benefits and Comforts of other lives. we may be familiar because we are born in it but that doesn't mean everyone is satisfied with the shit hole that is our culture and system of government. Instead of making more shity people what if we crafted a better culture? one that doesn't demand the majority suffer for the amusement for a minority.

Who can blame them

[lfp98]

US officials contend they were just following standard procedure and the rule of law, but Meng's arrest was anything but normal. Extending economic sanctions to companies that do business in Iran is one thing, but what other country would kidnap a high-profile foreign executive in transit at a foreign airport and incarcerate them for engaging in trade with a third country? North Korea, maybe? This is not normal procedure, it is shock-and-awe, a willful demonstration of just how far the US will go to work its will on other countries.

You are truly a blathering fool.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're full of shit. Huawei ignored international sanctions and subpoenas/indictments related to major countries they do business with, then officers of that company went into the jurisdiction of that legal order to arrest them. Like anyone else, like the head of Nissan. China, in RETALIATION (which isn't a legal tenet, you idiot) arrests 2 Canadians including a DIPLOMAT on bogus unstated charges and all but blatantly announces they're doing so to influence the legal proceedings of Huawei. None of that is legal on any level. China is a criminal enterprise not even pretending to have legal legs here. You're truly a moron for trying to pretend anything about Meng being arrested, given an attorney, read her rights, having her bail considered AT ALL, and informing the world of all of this including her wellbeing at all times is somehow on par with China disappearing people for months without a word. I hope you see the inside of a Chinese prison some day, for comparative educational purposes.

You are also moronic.

[Anonymous Coward]

"This was a bizarre legal action that deserves scrutiny" What's bizarre is you think characterizing it like that in 1 sentence precludes a need to explain just what the fuck about it was bizarre. Huawei's CFO is fair game.

Of course there's scrutiny, it's a US and Canadian court. They do things in the open, unlike China's "courts" if they can even be called that. Huawei ignored diplomatic channels AND subpoenas. You're uninformed, moron.

Re: You are also moronic.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many US CEO/CFO's were prosecuted post GFC? Nada. The will wasn't there. Now Meng faces charges on bank fraud? Something doesn't add up.

Fuck Chinese criminals. Fuck apologists.

[Anonymous Coward]

If Huawei didn't break the law why did they ignore the people saying they did? If you break US law and you decide to walk on US soil, or an affiliated nation with extradition treaty, it doesn't really matter which law that is.

If you're behind a million dollars on child support, you will be picked up. Chinese, Finnish, Australian, Filipino, or purple tentacle, it does not matter. Fuck Chinese who think they deserve special treatment.

The fact that China arrested two unrelated Canadians on bogus charges as retaliation appears to have been missed by you, as is the response to back their state-owned company in anti-US fomenting directly.

Break the law, face a trial, with your lawyer, and if your defense is as RETARDED as a powerpoint marketing drawing, YOU BELONG IN OUR JAILS for as long as our laws say you do.

Don't like it? Then don't do business with the west, and don't fucking set foot on affiliated soil - OR YOU WILL be picked up and tried for your criminal enterprise.

Fuck apologists. Our process has been entirely legitimate and legal and China and Huawei both intentionally ignored it. Well ignore it now, bitches.

Re: Fuck Chinese criminals. Fuck apologists.

[Anonymous Coward]

That was wasnt the issue. They were selling US tech bought under an agreed to export control agreement to Iran. They didnt have to sign the agreement and they could have sold other tech. But they voluntarily signed a license with intent to break it, did break it, and then tries to hide it through creative finance accounting.

Don't blame em

[WindBourne]

Fact is, only in America have our businesses been so stupid as to ignore the nation in which they are based in. In Europe, Asia, South America, etc, businesses remember to support their nation. Here, in America, we have foisted such BS on ourselves that even the executives screw over America. Don't want to employ here, OR be taxed, but by god, if China or some other nation screws with them, we are expected to jump all over it.
Total BS. Congrats to those Chinese companies that are patriotic enough to support their nation.

Re:Don't blame em

[nnull]

The problem is, Chinese patriotism doesn't exist. Chinese don't even like most Chinese products. So I don't see how this incentive program is going to work. First thing they will probably do is trade in their Huawei for an Apple Iphone.

Re:Don't blame em

[WindBourne]

Don't kid yourself. I have deal with 2 chinese spies. Oddly, one of them grew up in Taiwan. The fact is, that most Chinese HATE their gov but love their nation and ppl (not much different than here). As such, they will gladly knock their gov, BUT, once they see fellow country men, coming under attack, they will defend them.

Duh!

[p51d007]

Commie China, with the help of Google, had AI, cameras, social media scores and what not. You think those that have a little more freedom in China, are going to screw that up, by purchasing anything other that a 100% Chinese brand? Even though the iPhones are made in China, most Chinese will buy from local merchants, because they don't want to be "shamed".

Re:Duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

Commie China

so a country filled with entrepreneurs and capitalists is "commie"

this from a country where the government owns liquor stores and regulates production of dairy

could you be more clueless?

Re:Duh!

[Rick Zeman]

Commie China

so a country filled with entrepreneurs and capitalists is "commie"

You're right; the OP phrased that badly. "Commie" implies a political philosophy besides "pissant, power-hungry, murdering mother fuckers."

Brain Drain...

[wolfheart111]

Thats what happens when u try to ban xmas... :)

Has anyone shown Huawei has done something

[fredrated]

wrong, or are we trashing this company from speculation and conjecture?

Re:Has anyone shown Huawei has done something

[thegarbz]

Let's face it. This is China, we instinctively know Huawei is doing things wrong. But make sure you keep looking at China, the ones we are pointing at. Just keep looking that way. Those damn spies. No no don't look at Snoden leaks, CHINA it's all about China. No CIA? What's that? NSA? Is that a football league? CHINA!!!!

Re: USian companies should subsidize Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

People are getting sick of iPhones and Apple's constant excuses for hardware defects

Are you sure? There's a minor slump in iPhone numbers this year, but it's reflected across the board - HTC, Samsung and several no-name Chinese brands are all seeing massive reductions in sales volume as well, at a larger percentage. The cheapest, nastiest phones are holding steady or only seeing slight falls, while the Android flagships have been decimated. Apple is doing OK (not great) in comparison, due to having a higher quality product and stronger brand.

People are just being cheap due to external factors, and 2 huge consumer markets (China and the USA) are currently thrashing around trying to sort their shit out.

Re: USian companies should subsidize Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

More like we are past peak smartphone and people dont see the point in upgrading every two years. Same as desktops, laptops, tablets, watches, fitness trackers, etc. Once the market saturates, its about gaining marketshare through subsidy or incentives. Apple likes making boatloads of cash, so little incentive is given on the price, and without a US subsidy, Huawei can walk in with financial backing of their govt and undercut prices. WTO typically doesnt go for this.

And if an American company did this...

[Chas]

You'd see the anti-trust investigations hit in stretches of time measurable in micro-fractions of a picosecond.

Re: Nobody cares

[PopeRatzo]

Democracy is dead.

Mobs in yellow vests don't generally bring it back to life.

The only way to revive Democracy is to practice it. It's like anything else: if you want to get better at something, you have to practice. We may be on a trend of greater electoral participation in the US, which can only help us. There will still be minorities in power in certain places (Wisconsin, North Carolina, etc) who will try to thwart the will of the people on their way out the door, but they're on their way out the door, which is the important part.

I think some guarded optimism is warranted. Maybe it's just the eggnog, but I choose to look on the bright side.

Re: Nobody cares

[umghhh]

I appreciate your sentiment and for long years I was convinced about that too. In fact I still think the only thing that can save democracy is practice. There are significant obstacles tho. The bigger the society governed by democracy the bigger the problems with legitimacy and the social glue needed for the whole system to work for at least majority if not for all. It kind of work in counties of the Swiss federation. Yet you can see where this leads when the people decide against establishment and external forces of oppression. You could see it for instance in Greece when they voted against certain policies (as reasonable or not they may have been) and have been then forced to accept them anyway by their government. The marxist hysteria that goes through each of the western societies claiming superiority of feelings and ideology over facts and reason is another. Add to this what the IQ distribution in a population tells you - if 10% cannot be even drafted into the military to become a cannon fodder due to their low ability yet they have the same voting rights as you do - and slashdot readers, even those infected with social justice syndrome have above average analytical skills - what does that tell you about quality of decisions made in a group including such a mix? . Throughout history democracy's success is rather based on accident than efficiency. Possibly it allows for easier removal of unwanted politicians or preventing dynasties but when society stabilizes itself into oligarchy it is just a failure anyway and it can hardly work in times of fast arriving challenges. Same histoy books show that, there is no system that is durable and just. No matter what after a while the corruption and/or dementia start to plague any system. Add to this religions that see themselves entitled to control society and politics as well as industry (there is at least one that does that and has success in achieving such control in many states all around the world mostly bringing suffering and oppression to most involved) and conflicts that are usually resolved by discussion and compromise become unsolvable meaning that whoever wins the vote will have to oppress the ones that lost it, just as well as the ones that lost it will see themselves as rightful defenders of democracy and justice including use of violence if need be. I am not sure if there is cure for this. I suppose not. So exercise in democracy while working for some time will have to have order shaking bumps changing social order and fixing it for some time till next bump arises. I personally think we are close to such set of bumps. The technology, demography, politics all seem to exacerbate problems at the moment. No amount of democracy can fix shaking and pain caused by the bumps. A skillful leadership (democratically elected or not) may help.

Re: Nobody cares

[AlwinBarni]

... I am not sure if there is cure for this. I suppose not. ...

I think education is an answer, a democracy works well only in a well educated society, which keeps practicing it. And the education not as just preparing for a job, but wide and thorough. There are societies (few but still), where democracy is practiced by majority and which put education as an important part of their state responsibilities voting participation.

Also I would not disrepair, democracy truly works - it's better than anything else tried so far.

... No amount of democracy can fix shaking and pain caused by the bumps. A skillful leadership (democratically elected or not) may help. ...

Strongly disagree, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" - there's only one way forward for a not democratically elected government, and it's not a way of freedom, it's a way of oppression, censorship, corruption, political imprisonment, followed by more oppression.

Re: Nobody cares

[PopeRatzo]

I find this comment amusing when the Democrats have pretty much defiled Democracy with their, "Resist" movement. Democrats LOVE Democracy, until they lose. Then it's, "Eliminate the electoral college!", "Eliminate the Senate!".

Think about what you're saying. The electoral college and the US Senate are some of our least democratic institutions. In fact, they are anti-democratic by design.

Bad value proposition...

[Rick Zeman]

...trading in an iPhone for a Huawei would be like my boss telling me "Ditch that BMW and we'll help you buy a replacement Yugo."

Uhh, I'll decline that "generous" offer.

Re: Nobody cares

[ewibble]

I think education is an answer, a democracy works well only in a well educated society, which keeps practicing it. And the education not as just preparing for a job, but wide and thorough. There are societies (few but still), where democracy is practiced by majority and which put education as an important part of their state responsibilities voting participation [followmyvote.com].

I disagree, people are now more educated than any time in history, we have access to more (dis)information. The reason I think we don't vote is we don't think it makes any difference and all politicians are just liars

Here are things that I think we need for democracy to work better:

1. Public political funding, sure it costs but I would rather pay taxes than have companies and the rich donate because it will cost me more in the long run. Also once money can buy votes you no longer have a democracy you have a cashcracy. Also you have to have a funding system that allows small parties to have their say.

2. Transparency, everything should be made public (sometimes eventually). You are doing things in the public's name, binding them to agreements you make. The public is your boss, you wouldn't get away with secret negotiations at work which you didn't tell your boss about. Yes somethings have to be kept secret for a while but you should have to provide reasons why and know that your actions will be made public eventually.

Sure you should be able to get advice from companies, and companies should be able to lobby you, but only in public. If they are not willing to give their input in public then they should not give it.

3. Honesty, this goes hand in hand with forgiveness of mistakes. Deceiving (relating to policies) should be less accepted, if you made a mistake you should admit it. The public should also accept that politicians are human and make mistakes, if they do not the only way a politician can keep there job is through lies. So you get liars, and honest people are removed.

4. Stop saying everyone should vote, yes it would be ideal if everyone cared and voted, but if you can't be bothered getting of your butt for 30 minutes to vote then you probably haven't put in the time to learn about the issues. All this does, is you will vote by name recognition, keeping small parties with possibly good ideas out.

Re: Nobody cares

[umghhh]

All things associated with additional layer(s) between sovereign and the actual decision making may be necessary in big societies (more people than 9) but they also dilute legitimacy due to proxy layers. This may also mean that voters for particular proxy do not have much in common with voters for another proxy which makes accepting the decisions that are not to one's liking difficult or impossible. In other words democracy is difficult in scaling. If you use it for government system, then it will require a skilled and charismatic leader. But these can do good and evil as skills & charisma have nothing to do with moral. Talking about moral - the hypermoral that modern assholes mob preach is nothing but - the vulgodemocrats have no clue about democracy or about human rights, they just blather about it or otherwise abuse it, It may be that with increasing population density you get less and less freedom, More diversity may also mean less and less freedom but also less and less democracy exactly because you decisions are limited by considerations of minority rights. In modern western society rights of common men especially of common hetero men are less than appreciated. When we celebrated freedom at the fall of communism few decades ago, we expected to live in freedom and democracy was means to to achieve it. It could have been.

Re:Nobody cares

[sit1963nz]

Your soy bean growers in the USA cared.
Asia has 60% of the worlds population, the US 4%
Asia, in particular China is the LARGEST growth market in the world, the USA is about to see itself locked out of that market.
Trade with China is now considered more important than trade with the USA
Chinas economy will become bigger than the US, so will the EU, India and Brazil long term.

Re: Nobody cares

[sit1963nz]

And the countries that are MORE democratic than the USA all have gun control. The USA is 21st.

Boycotting

[stooo]

Boycotting Apple is only the beginning.

In unrelated news, I eat apples every day.

Re: Nobody cares

[AlwinBarni]

I think education is an answer, ...

I disagree, people are now more educated than any time in history, we have access to more (dis)information. The reason I think we don't vote is we don't think it makes any difference and all politicians are just liars ...

Well, agree. But still there are vast groups of people not well informed about politics, political processes, world in general and most importantly about scientific process of false/true recognition, who are thus easy to be manipulated - hence my "better education" argument.

Here are things that I think we need for democracy to work better: ...

In general agree with all the points, however this can happen only through voting, and to have support for it people have to have historical and sociological knowledge and understanding of human beings and societies, hence my "better education" argument.

Education is not a panacea for all the problems, it is however a good start to make improvements. Most of the good stuff is already in the Constitution, however (in my opinion) it was diluted by some interests groups or simply ignored. Corruption is one of the biggest problems of democracy - it has many forms (like sponsored vacation in the form of conferences, money in the form of payed speeches or promise of well payed positions in the future) - it's hard to fight, but transparency, limiting power of the government and dealing with the problem of "sponsored" representatives would help, which can only come with better understanding of the world, hence "better education".