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Hybrid Rice Engineered With CRISPR Can Clone Its Seeds (sciencenews.org)

A gene editing technique has been used to produce asexual rice, which could carry traits such as high yields and drought resistance. From a report: After more than 20 years of theorizing about it, scientists have tweaked a hybrid variety of rice so that some of the plants produce cloned seeds. No plant sex necessary. The feat, described earlier this month in Nature, is encouraging for efforts to feed an increasingly crowded world. Crossing two good varieties of grain can make one fabulous one, combining the best versions of genes to give crops desirable traits such as higher yields. But such hybrid grain marvels often don't pass along those coveted genetic qualities to all seeds during reproduction. So farmers who want consistently higher yields have to pay for new hybrid seeds every year.

This new lab version of hybrid rice would preserve those qualities through self-cloning, says study coauthor Venkatesan Sundaresan, a plant geneticist at the University of California, Davis. Though 400 kinds of plants, including some blackberries and citruses, have developed self-cloning seeds naturally, re-creating those pathways in crop plants has "been harder than anyone expected," Sundaresan says. He and his colleagues got the idea for the new research while studying "how a fertilized egg becomes a zygote, this magical cell that regenerates an entire organism," as Sundaresan puts it. The researchers discovered that modifying two sets of genes caused the japonica rice hybrid called Kitaake to clone its own seeds. First the team found that in a fertilized plant egg, only the male version of a gene called BABY BOOM1 found in sperm triggered the development of a seed embryo. So the scientists inserted a genetic starter switch, called a promoter, that let the female version of the same gene do the same job. No male would be necessary to trigger an embryo's development.

70 of 145 comments (clear)

  1. And at Monsanto - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    widespread panic as their business model is threatened.

    1. Re:And at Monsanto - by LifesABeach · · Score: 4, Funny

      I was thinking, "Zombie rice, what could possibly go wrong?"

    2. Re:And at Monsanto - by Shotgun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since when does the SJWs have to decide?

      They argue that there are no differences between male and female, then they argue that certain males get special rights because they "feel" like a female.

      They argue that we should not consider a person's sex when hiring, and then argue that every corporate board must have at least one woman.

      The argue that race and cultures are all equal, and then go into a tizzy fit if a child wears a Halloween costume that "appropriates" another culture. So, obviously the cultures are different, but then go into a tizzy fit if someone argues that because the cultures are different, one culture might be a better fit for a certain job than another, or that people of a particular culture (or sex) might gravitate to a particular career.

      Listing the self contradicting arguments that SJWs put forward is exhausting, so why would this slow them down?

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    3. Re:And at Monsanto - by dinfinity · · Score: 1

      "SJWs", really?
      Is this an area where that moniker applies?

      Wouldn't Agricultural Justice Warriors or Small Business Justice Warriors be more fitting?

    4. Re:And at Monsanto - by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      When activists evaluate a technology purely on the basis of what additional legal powers it may give the company that deploys it, they are arguing social justice, rather than biology.

    5. Re:And at Monsanto - by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Informative
      Still stupid enough to believe that myth, eh?

      You mean the myth of reality?

      When farmers purchase a patented seed variety, they sign an agreement that they will not save and replant seeds produced from the seed they buy from us. More than 325,000 farmers a year buy seed under these agreements in the United States. Other seed companies sell their seed under similar provisions. They understand the basic simplicity of the agreement, which is that a business must be paid for its product. The vast majority of farmers understand and appreciate our research and are willing to pay for our inventions and the value they provide. They donâ(TM)t think it's fair that some farmers donâ(TM)t pay.

      A very small percentage of farmers do not honor this agreement. Monsanto does become aware, through our own actions or through third-parties, of individuals who are suspected of violating our patents and agreements. Where we do find violations, we are able to settle most of these cases without ever going to trial. In many cases, these farmers remain our customers. Sometimes however, we are forced to resort to lawsuits. This is a relatively rare circumstance, with 147 lawsuits filed since 1997 in the United States. This averages about 8 per year for the past 18 years. To date, only 9 cases have gone through full trial. In every one of these instances, the jury or court decided in our favor.

      Here is one such case:

      The Bowman case has come about after the 75-year-old farmer bought soybeans from a grain elevator near his farm in Indiana and used them to plant a late-season second crop. He then used some of the resulting seeds to replant such crops in subsequent years. Because he bought them from a third party which put no restrictions on their use, Bowman has argued he is legally able to plant and replant them and that Monsanto's patent on the seeds' genes does not apply.

      Monsanto, which has won its case against Bowman in lower courts, vociferously disagrees. It argues that it needs its patents in order to protect its business interests and provide a motivation for spending millions of dollars on research and development of hardier, disease-resistant seeds that can boost food yields.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    6. Re:And at Monsanto - by inking · · Score: 1

      It must be awful to have a company that makes you richer through no improvements on your own part and has the audacity to ask for a cut. Awful! 2019 is the year of Linux maize.

  2. Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It was there first. Was used by all living things for a long time. Eventually nature abandoned it. (Yes, I am anthropomorphizing nature and attributing to it free wheel and motives. Suck it up. It is the short hand we use. )

    Why? Germs adapt. At every vulnerability they thrive. Asexual reproduction results in genetically identical organisms highly vulnerable to diseases and parasites. Already we have very few species (as few as 6) providing 60% of the calories used by the entire human population. We are already very vulnerable to something like Irish Potato famine, only orders of magnitude more devastating. And, replace these species with genetically identical clones? ....

    But, it would be the dream of agri-chem business. I could see the dollar signs blinking on the executives "they are going to need more pesticides? and fungicides? Wow!". They will write staid professional dry proposals and forecasts, "Monsato believes there is great potential for the company due these scientific breakthroughs and development" in their prospecti and conference call guidance.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Wheel = auto correction for will

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Kokuyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's one scenario.

      One reason why Monsanto might not be happy about this is that farmers won't have a need to buy new seeds every year.

      Also if you can selectively modify the genes, what keeps you from adapting next year's crops in one fell swoop instead of waiting for nature to evolution the vulnerability out over ten centuries?
      If we get good at this, we might actually outperform nature by several orders of magnitude.

      There are certainly downsides to this, some of which nobody even thinks of right now. However, in the long run I'm not sure we'll have much of a choice. Population probably will level out at 11 billion at some point but feeding that many people isn't a piece of cake by any means.

    3. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is a real risk in the extreme monoculture of cloned foodcrops. I still miss the taste of the Gros Michel banana of my childhood. The Cavendish banana is resistant to the Panama disease of the 50s and 60s, but a new strain has emerged that does affect Cavendish. 99% of export bananas are Cavendish. But probably not for long...

    4. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1, Informative

      Exactly. Bananas use asexual reproduction. ( info for those who are unaware of the connection)

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    5. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Already we have very few species (as few as 6) providing 60% of the calories used by the entire human population. We are already very vulnerable to something like Irish Potato famine, only orders of magnitude more devastating. And, replace these species with genetically identical clones? ....

      Who is suggesting that anyone replace entire species with genetically identical clones? What makes you think that the creation of cloneable hybrids is going to replace the hundreds of varieties of sweet corn, as just one example, that exist within each of those "very few species."

      Hint: We've replaced a "species" with collections of genetically identical clones - for hundreds of years. You know them as Malus pumila, the apple tree.

      But, it would be the dream of agri-chem business.

      High yield hydrids that can be repropogated by seed? Yes, that's certainly the dream of agri-chem. Oh, wait, it was high yield hybrids that could not be repropogated by seed that was the dream of agri-chem. Activists told me so. Reusing seed good. Hybrids and terminator genes bad.

      They will write staid professional dry proposals and forecasts...

      Got it. "All change is bad. I don't even have to argue why, just trust me."

    6. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "Asexual reproduction results in genetically identical organisms highly vulnerable to diseases and parasites. "

      Diseases usually _are_ asexual organisms.

    7. Re: Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "I doubt intelligent farming is unprofitable."

      So those almost 900 billions of subsidies are for what exactly?
      Eradicating stupidity?

    8. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Greyfox · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yeah, this shit is why bananas are in danger of going extinct. Bringing asexual reproduction to a core component of most of the world's food supply is the height of irresponsibility.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    9. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by DRJlaw · · Score: 4, Informative

      Exactly. Bananas use asexual reproduction. ( info for those who are unaware of the connection)

      Bananas do not use asexual reproduction. Human producers seeking a fruit that can be easily harvested and shipped internationally have propogated a sterile mutant variety that, being a sterile mutant, doesn't have a wide range of alternatives.

       

    10. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by dasunt · · Score: 1

      It was there first. Was used by all living things for a long time. Eventually nature abandoned it.

      Nature never abandoned asexual reproduction. Archaea, bacteria, and protozoans all use asexual reproduction.

      Obviously we tend to notice big, multi-cellular creatures, but most of life is not.

    11. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by coastwalker · · Score: 1

      Having a limited set of cloned plants to produce our food is indeed a terrible danger because of the risk of "potato blight" or similar. Fortunately we have developed the technology as illustrated by this story to free ourselves from this risk.

      It is early days yet but gene manipulation will change the world at least as much in the next 50 years as semiconductors did in the last. In 50 years time bullshit ideas like extreme human lifetimes, plants, animals, viruses and bacteria made to order, sustainable farming, the end of human illness and disease etc etc - these ideas and many others will be reality.

      Of course we will have many who insist that a "man walks in front of the new technology waving a red flag" for some time yet but like the automobile this technology will become all pervasive soon enough. Are you ready to adapt?

      --
      Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
    12. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      We can't control the pathogens in open air agriculture ... and open air is the only commercially viable way to feed the world.

    13. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 2

      All I see is genetic manipulation taking less than a handful of proteins useful for pest control and pesticide resistance and spamming them across every plant across the planet. Meta-monoculture.

    14. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by sinij · · Score: 1

      It was there first. Was used by all living things for a long time. Eventually nature abandoned it. ...

      Yes, what you say is true. However, you fail to acknowledge that natural selection must be present for evolution to take place and for sexual reproduction to matter. That is, weak plants die off and strong plants reproduce and propagate genetic variations that give them reproductive advantage. This doesn't happen in farmed crops, as we are not interested in hardy plants, instead we want yields, and as such we closely control and manage selection. As such it doesn't matter if this hybrid rice reproduces asexually, even if it reproduced traditionally its traits would be managed anyways.

      Yes, if humanity collapses this rice likely won't make it long-term for all the reasons you stated. However, this is largely irrelevant to us.

    15. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Yes, but they can easily go through several to dozens of generations in a single day, which compensates for the much slower speed of evolution per generation.

      They're also mostly not asexual - they just *reproduce* asexually. Bacteria in particular regularly get together with their companions for a little gene-on-gene action, swapping useful adaptations - so that a particularly useful mutation can (potentially - though its unlikely) spread throughout a population in the same generation it first appears. They're not even limited to only swapping genes with the same species.

      Keep in mind - our most powerful gene-editing tools were all stolen from bacteria. They're the technological leaders when it comes to gene-editing, they just lack intelligent guidance for applying it. But, they have us outnumbered by about 600 million trillion to one (~100 trillion bacteria live in a single healthy human alone), and that amount of massively parallel trial-and-error may well be even more effective than intelligence.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    16. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Immerman · · Score: 2

      We also can't control the weather, or even predict it over the course of an entire growing season. And it's looking like for at least the next few generations that weather is probably going to be getting steadily more extreme and unpredictable. Which is going to make choosing what to plant where increasingly difficult, and likely hurt yields badly.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    17. Re: Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      You say "subsidy". I say "Iowa Caucus". Ta-may-toe, To-mah-toe.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    18. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Yes, but to date that connection has never resulted in the reproduction of either bananas or humans.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    19. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If diseases happen, we can splice clones together until we get something that can withstand the disease

      For suitably "those of us who haven't starved in the meantime" values of "we".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    20. Re: Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      So those almost 900 billions of subsidies are for what exactly?

      Which subsidies are those? I can't seem to find them in the Federal Budget....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    21. Re:Why nature abandoned asexual reproduction? by inking · · Score: 1

      Doesn’t matter if they have to buy new seeds every year. Your employer doesn’t need to reinstall Microsoft Office every year either.

  3. Re:JUST SAY NO by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Why do you hate bananas?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Re: Hybrid Rices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I doubt a scientific discussion is even possible on slashdot. I think we should confine ourselves to complaining about tech

  5. Sounds like an invasive nightmare by DalM · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hmm... Plants that can grow, reproduce itself, grow ,reproduce itself, grow, reproduce itself, grow, reproduce itself, infinium.

    That sound like a cancer.

    1. Re:Sounds like an invasive nightmare by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Hmm... Plants that can grow, reproduce itself, grow ,reproduce itself, grow, reproduce itself, grow, reproduce itself, infinium.

      That sound like a cancer.

      Tasty, carb-loaded cancer. Get some soy sauce and vegetables and it's fried rice for everyone! (No egg, don't like egg in fried rice)

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:Sounds like an invasive nightmare by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Not so - there are numerous island species that self-regulate their populations. There's an island, near New Zealand if I recall correctly, populated by many species of birds, and no predators - at least until we introduced rats. The birds mostly all respond to environmental stresses by not breeding as much, so that they self-regulate their population to remain within the carrying capacity of the island. Rats are really throwing them for a loop, since they've introduced a stressor unrelated to carrying capacity - eggs are being eaten, and the birds are responding by reproducing less. Not a promising cycle.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Sounds like an invasive nightmare by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Begun, the clone war has.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  6. Re:JUST SAY NO by skoskav · · Score: 1

    But people need their steady supply of hard cheese and insulin.

  7. Re:Boycott ... by skoskav · · Score: 1

    Apparently motivation enough that ad hominems suffice to counter criticism. Why even bother with presenting evidence or arguments! =)

  8. build it and they will not come by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    People won't want it because it's not natural organic GMO-free and energy balanced with reiki healing crystals. How's Golden Rice doing these days?

    1. Re:build it and they will not come by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      People in the rich western countries maybe. People in poorer countries want to eat and will look at you funny for talking like that.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    2. Re:build it and they will not come by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Those "poorer countries" don't exist anymore since roughly the 1970s ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  9. We're already directly editing genes by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    couldn't we just do it again? We're approaching the point where living things can be built like machines and without waiting for generation after generation to get the trait you want. It's the same thing we did with selective breeding, we're just taking a shortcut.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  10. Re:Anyone believe farmers wont be paying every yea by skoskav · · Score: 1

    So farmers who want consistently higher yields have to pay for new hybrid seeds every year.

    This is seriously used as an argument? really?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how this was used as an argument. It's just describing the process and effect of hybridization, which is a very integral part of modern western food production, whereby two inbred parent crops are bred to produce a very specific hybrid seed. The planted hybrid crop in turn can only produce unpredictable junk seeds, for a similar reason as to why mules can rarely have successful offspring.

    We all know there will be yearly licensing costs for using the intellectual property, enforced by an army of lawyers. Monsanto^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Bayer has shown the way, many will follow.

    Some biotech company or university may have invested a decade of R&D into this. Using this crop variety may require signing a contract on how it can be used. This is standard fare in a capitalist economy with intellectual property laws. I don't think it's fair to blame specific companies and universities for wanting a way to finance such R&D. Blame the laws.

  11. Re:Dear Monsanto et al, by skoskav · · Score: 1

    The paper's researchers are from universities and research institutes:

    Department of Plant Biology, University of California, Davis, CA, USA
    Department of Plant Sciences, University of California, Davis, CA, USA
    Department of Genetics, Development and Cell Biology, Iowa State University, Ames, IA, USA
    Innovative Genomics Institute, Berkeley, CA, USA
    Institut Jean-Pierre Bourgin, INRA, AgroParisTech, CNRS, Université Paris-Saclay, Versailles, France

    I don't see a specific biotech company being behind this research.

  12. It's nice to know... by magusxxx · · Score: 1

    Ferris Bueller's teacher's wive's research has paid off.

    --
    Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
  13. Re:Only a redneck by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Kudzu
    Russian thistle
    Salt-cedar
    A few of the invasive plants that are causing increasing environmental damage in the U.S.
    Heck - try to go hiking in Oregon. Blackberries have taken over practically every unshaded, untended spot in the state to the aggravation of all. The man who introduced them is cursed regularly.

    Any species introduced into an area where it can thrive, and where there are no effective predators to keep it in check, will be invasive. They displace the native species, thereby also harming every other species that relied on them for food or shelter. The knock-on effects from that can be ecologically devastating.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  14. Re:Boycott ... by skoskav · · Score: 1

    Though I understood about a tenth of what you wrote, you seem to be saying that you're against monopolies. While I disagree with that premise, the seeming introduction of non-sequiturs (passing laws, criminality, threats, jail time, country X, swearing oaths, employment, blacklisting, BDS, Israel, posting as AC) and your conclusion, I suppose it's at least an argument. That's all I asked for, and you sure delivered a fascinating one.

  15. Re:Feeding an increasingly crowded world by skoskav · · Score: 1

    It seems brash to think that society only should bother choosing one specific solution. A seemingly more attainable approach to feeding the world would be a little bit of every solution:

    * Introduce crops that are more nutritious, disease resistant, drought tolerant, and can be harvested more often in a year
    * Reduce the use of arable farmland taken up by non-food production, e.g. palm oil trees for ethanol, maize for corn syrup
    * Reduce the use of inefficient ideology-based organic farming with more efficient science-based farming
    * Let land-use-efficient crops be a bigger part of our diets, e.g. by replacing some beef and lamb meals with fish, chicken and vegetables
    * Slow down population growth in developing countries by helping them industrialize, increase education rates, decrease mortality and introduce family planning
    * Reduce food waste in transportation, grocery stores, restaurants and at home

  16. Still, GP was talking about genetic diversity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Whether it be selfcloned seeds or grafted sterile bananas, the problem is the same: you have no genetic diversity and a particularly well adapted disease/parasite can wipe out your whole population.
    This might very well be the case here. Of course, if they repeated the editing in different rice varieties, and distributed them in batches of ... who knows, ?maybe 20? different clones together, then a disease could adapt to one or more of those but not all. In the end, we could monitor the diversity after a few generations and know when we need to edit a new one to fill the pool.
    Of course its a lot easier than with bananas, mainly because it's not a full grown tree, also because this CRISPR editing is a lot faster than breeding another seedless banana variety from wild ones.

    1. Re:Still, GP was talking about genetic diversity by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Whether it be selfcloned seeds or grafted sterile bananas, the problem is the same: you have no genetic diversity and a particularly well adapted disease/parasite can wipe out your whole population.

      But we don't actually do that with crops that have sexual parent stock, or even with most crops that are developed through grafted clones. Research how many varieties of corn there are, or how many varieties of apples (a grafted-clone crop with parentage that does not breed true due to horrendously complex genetics).

      Of course, if they repeated the editing in different rice varieties, and distributed them in batches...

      Which is exactly what is done with hybrid corn development, sans the CRISPR editing...

      then a disease could adapt to one or more of those but not all.

      Exactly.

      In the end, we could monitor the diversity after a few generations and know when we need to edit a new one to fill the pool.

      There's not nearly the need that you think -- each of the major food crops has varieties coming out of the woodwork. If you read the linked article, the issue is not with an actual monoculture taking over the world, it is with large oligocultures developing (because any modern cultivated crop will become so uniform and widespread in production) and a threatened failure to preserve wild-type progenitor stock that could be used as inputs to production stock to develop resistance to developing or future threats.

  17. Re:JUST SAY NO by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    But people need their steady supply of hard cheese [geneticlit...roject.org] and insulin [acsh.org].

    Need? You would be surprised how well I can survive without hard cheese or pharmaceutical insulin.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  18. Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    This sounds like promising research. If products come to market from it, there should be a label on it.

    Both things can be true. If GMO products are developed that show benefit to consumers, they should be sold. With a label. Simple.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      I've always felt that it seemed arbitrary and ill-willed to force GMO products to be labeled. Labeling products resulting from older GM technology that currently fill our grocery shelves, such as radiation or chemically induced mutation breeding or hybridization is never brought up, even though they're arguably no more predictable or safe. Crops that reproduce asexually already exist; shouldn't they be labeled too?

      Unjustifiably labeling GMO can sway uninformed people into incorrect assumptions, such as equating it to dangerous products and ingredients that are also labeled in many countries, like tobacco, alcohol and allergens.

    2. Re:Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I've always felt that it seemed arbitrary and ill-willed to force GMO products to be labeled.

      That's too bad. Consumers are paying the bill, and they want a label so they can choose.

      Consumers can exist without the GMO companies, but GMO companies cannot exist without consumers. Put a label on it. If your product really has a benefit, then the label will be to the benefit of the company.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      That's what makes the labeling arbitrary. By that criterion, every product could be labeled for everything that it is or isn't. Should bread be labeled for its wheat being mutation-bred? Should Granny Smith apples be labeled for being clones? Strawberries labeled for being hybrids?

    4. Re:Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Yes, if it's protected by intellectual property, it should say so and list the owner of the intellectual property. If the genetically-modified organism is not protected by intellectual property laws or is public domain, and the modification was made in a laboratory by a CRISPR, then a simple marking showing it as GMO will suffice. It could be like those little markings they put on food that is kosher or halal.

      Is that acceptable to you?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      Well, no. I do not find it acceptable, because it doesn't seem to convey any useful information. With labels for e.g. allergens, alcohol, tobacco or cancer risk, useful health information can be conveyed. With kosher and halal it conveys that it is compliant with specific religious practices. But whether or not e.g. a banana is a hybridized polyploid clone from Chiquita doesn't seem to tell the average consumer much for them to act upon.

    6. Re:Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Well, no. I do not find it acceptable

      It still doesn't matter, because the consumers are paying the bills. They get to decide.

      Eventually, you'll put a label on it.

      But whether or not e.g. a banana is a hybridized polyploid clone from Chiquita doesn't seem to tell the average consumer much for them to act upon.

      Oh, but it does. I don't want to support companies that would patent basic foodstuffs. I don't believe patents should even be allowed for basic foodstuffs. So I can act upon that information by not buying Chiquita bananas.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    7. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      It still doesn't matter, because the consumers are paying the bills. They get to decide.

      Eventually, you'll put a label on it.

      I would argue that consumers also needs to be protected from misinformation. If consumers are falling for fake cancer treatments wrapped with convincing rhetoric, then various agencies -- whether state-operated, independent panels or journalists -- with expertise in the relevant fields should have a voice in the public discourse. You seem to be implying that consumers should be unaware of the science and motivations behind decisions, which I find to be extremely dangerous for a society.

      Oh, but it does. I don't want to support companies that would patent basic foodstuffs. I don't believe patents should even be allowed for basic foodstuffs. So I can act upon that information by not buying Chiquita bananas.

      Well, patents on foodstuff have existed for over a century, so your original focus on GMO companies seems misguided, as the first modern transgenic plant (which is the technology that typically gets called GMO) didn't exist until 1983. Anyone in the US can get a 20 year patent on a plant they invented or discovered, provided they can reliably reproduce it, among a few other criteria. If you disagree with the concept of patents then advocate changing patent laws instead of going the roundabout way of labeling specific technologies and companies for the tangentially related industry practice of seeking patent protection while they commercialize their product, to get back their R&D spending.

    8. Re:Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I would argue that consumers also needs to be protected from misinformation.

      It is not misinformation to label a genetically-modified organism that is protected by intellectual property laws as a genetically-modified organism that is protected by intellectual property laws. Since it is a true fact, it is the very opposite of misinformation. It's quite suspicious that there is so much effort to this one very plain fact.

      Well, patents on foodstuff have existed for over a century

      No, the first patent of a plant didn't occur until 1931, and it wasn't a basic foodstuff.

      If you disagree with the concept of patents then advocate changing patent laws instead of going the roundabout way of labeling specific technologies

      No, my way is more effective because it harnesses the power of consumer choice.

      There will be labels.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      It is not misinformation to label a genetically-modified organism that is protected by intellectual property laws as a genetically-modified organism that is protected by intellectual property laws. Since it is a true fact, it is the very opposite of misinformation. It's quite suspicious that there is so much effort to this one very plain fact.

      And again, I consider the presence of the label to be unjustified, as you have not shown the label to have any relevance for consumers. If more consumers were informed on food science, they may not want irrelevant labels on most of their food, as other people could draw incorrect safety conclusions, e.g. from reading that their potatoes are a result of radiation breeding, compared to being inbred.

      No, the first patent of a plant didn't occur until 1931, and it wasn't a basic foodstuff.

      You're may be right for US patents. Though as I'm unable to find the source I was thinking of, we'll stick with US patents. The oldest US "food" patent application I could find was a 1930 plum tree. Regardless, my point that food patents existed way before GMO companies still stands -- Why single out a specific technology when you're actually out to thwart food patents?

      No, my way is more effective because it harnesses the power of consumer choice.

      There will be labels.

      So am I understanding you correct that you want to combat food patents by labeling the type of plant production used? That's would be a disingenuous label with a hidden malicious agenda.

    10. Re:Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      So am I understanding you correct that you want to combat food patents by labeling the type of plant production used?

      No, come on, that's not what I said. Producers have no problem putting the little "tm" symbol next to every single one of their trademarks, along with the name of the trademark holder, so why the problem labeling the produce with a simple indication that the organism is patented and the name of the owner?

      But I'm at least glad that you withdrew your claim that a label would be "misinformation". That's a bogus argument that I see a lot. A true fact cannot be misinformation. Beyond that, it's the job of the producer to do the proper marketing and public relations to convince consumers their product is worth the money, instead of trying to hide this true fact.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      No, come on, that's not what I said. Producers have no problem putting the little "tm" symbol next to every single one of their trademarks, along with the name of the trademark holder, so why the problem labeling the produce with a simple indication that the organism is patented and the name of the owner?

      Well it seems to me that you keep changing what you want on the label. In your initial post you wanted to label GMO. A couple of comments later you seemed to agree that mutation breeding, clones and hybrids should also be labeled, in addition to any intellectual property holder. Now you're saying that only information about any intellectual property holder should be included.

      Now, if you want the label to include the technology used (mutation breeding, hybridization, cloning, GMO, etc.) in order for the consumer to have a choice of preferred technologies, then I think that the consumer is being presented with an irrelevant and misleading choice.

      If you instead want the label to include the technology used in order to combat patents, then as I mentioned previously, I think that would be a disingenuous label with a hidden agenda. But apparently that's not what you were arguing, as you said.

      If you want the label to include patent information in order for the consumer to have a choice of, say, "patented by X, Y, Z" or "non-patented," then I think that that's a less controversial stance, and possibly even useful information for the consumer.

      But I'm at least glad that you withdrew your claim that a label would be "misinformation". That's a bogus argument that I see a lot. A true fact cannot be misinformation. Beyond that, it's the job of the producer to do the proper marketing and public relations to convince consumers their product is worth the money, instead of trying to hide this true fact.

      "Misinformation" was in reference to the fake cancer treatment example. You seemed to be saying that anything the consumer wanted on the label, they could have. That could include misinformation, or in the case of labeling the technology used -- misleading information.

    12. Re:Put a label on it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      "Misinformation" was in reference to the fake cancer treatment example. You seemed to be saying that anything the consumer wanted on the label, they could have. That could include misinformation, or in the case of labeling the technology used -- misleading information.

      Now you're just arguing with strawmen and making shit up. I'm out.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re:Put a label on it by skoskav · · Score: 1

      That's too bad. Consumers are paying the bill, and they want a label so they can choose.

      It still doesn't matter, because the consumers are paying the bills. They get to decide.

      Eventually, you'll put a label on it.

      In context to what you were responding to, it sounded to me like you meant that labeling was completely the consumers' choice, regardless of what the label said, or its intent was. I thought that was a charitable interpretation of your arguments, but it's unfortunate that we misunderstood each other. I thought you had an interesting viewpoint though.

  19. Re:Boycott ... by Freischutz · · Score: 1

    Though I understood about a tenth of what you wrote, you seem to be saying that you're against monopolies. While I disagree with that premise, the seeming introduction of non-sequiturs (passing laws, criminality, threats, jail time, country X, swearing oaths, employment, blacklisting, BDS, Israel, posting as AC) and your conclusion, I suppose it's at least an argument. That's all I asked for, and you sure delivered a fascinating one.

    Though I understood about a tenth of what you wrote, you seem to be saying that you're against monopolies. While I disagree with that premise, the seeming introduction of non-sequiturs (passing laws, criminality, threats, jail time, country X, swearing oaths, employment, blacklisting, BDS, Israel, posting as AC) and your conclusion, I suppose it's at least an argument. That's all I asked for, and you sure delivered a fascinating one.

    I'll take another jab at explaining this to you, it is not particularly complicated. Boycotting Israeli products looks like it is be about to be come a crime punishable by incarceration in the US and some other countries, in fact in the US some companies and state governments require employees and contractors to sign a declaration and swear an oath that they will not boycott Israeli products. I will gladly swear an oath of fealty to my own country but I see no reason why I should be denied a job because I won't swear fealty to Israel for the simple reason that I am not an Israeli. Furthermore since there is not yet a law banning me from boycotting corporations I will boycott them if that corporation's business practices offend me and I will boycott Israeli products, Russian products, Chinese products if those countries' policies offend me no matter what laws congress passes. Basically the damn government has no business telling any citizen who they can and cannot boycott. Let them slap me with the $1 million fine and 20 year prison sentence in their proposed Israel Anti-Boycott Act for refusing to buy Israeli oranges (or gene modified rice if they ever extend the anti boycott act to corporations) and see how that verdict holds up in the supreme court (hint: 1st amendment). If you don't like that then ... well .. tough! If this rant does not light the proverbial bulb floating over your head I'm sorry but this is really the most I can dumb this down short of drawing you a picture and I quite frankly have better things to do. Oh, and you forgot to post as AC again.

  20. Re:JUST SAY NO by skoskav · · Score: 1

    Well I was engaging in some hyperbole for comedic effect. But think of the diabetic Frenchmen, not only could their insulin and cheese be GMO, but even their wine grapes have been substantially mutated from their "natural" state.

  21. Re:Boycott ... by skoskav · · Score: 1

    You just seem to be elaborating on the complications of boycotting, but all that was ever asked from you was why you wanted to boycott self-cloning rice. Could you instead elaborate on why self-cloning rice would lead to a monopoly? Judging by the paper's authors it seems to be a joint US-French research initiative, so I suspect it's not because of any Israeli involvement.

  22. So everything they got is... by LordHighExecutioner · · Score: 1

    crispy rice ?!?

  23. Re:Only a redneck by Immerman · · Score: 1

    Are you in Oregon? Seriously - I like blackberries, but when they fill all sunlit areas to a thorn-filled depth of 5-10 feet, and much more when they can bury isolated trees, that's something else altogether.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  24. Genetic "engineer" akin to sanitation "engineer" by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    n00bs hacking javascript examples from stack exchange for web dev into an incomprehensibly large OS running at 1MHz on a remote cluster having with months long build cycles, years long test cycles with extremely poor test coverage.

    But we're confident because we managed to get some lights to flicker on some of the boxes and our deployments never completely crash and we never lose money no matter how badly it performs anyway; even, if it fails to integrate properly with other systems. We can just go to work upgrading the other systems! profit!

    People say how bad software engineering is compared to all other kinds of real engineering... but genetic engineering is the worst of all...