Slashdot Mirror
Oregon Unconstitutionally Fined a Man $500 for Saying 'I am an Engineer,' Federal Judge Rules (vice.com)
A federal district court has ruled that the state of Oregon illegally infringed on a man's First Amendment rights for fining him $500 because he wrote "I am an engineer" in a 2014 email to the state's Engineering Board. The court ruled that the provision in the law he broke is unconstitutional, which opens the door for people in the state to legally call themselves "engineers." Motherboard reports: This dystopian saga dates back to 2013, when Mats Jarlstrom's wife, while driving, was caught by a red light camera near their home in Beaverton, Oregon. Rather than pay the red light camera fine, Jarlstrom, an electrical engineer, spent months researching the specifics of yellow light timing and red light cameras, and learned that his wife had likely been ticketed for running a yellow light. Jarlstrom began sharing his findings on his personal website, at conferences, and even got featured on 60 Minutes. He also wrote several emails to the Oregon Board of Engineers explaining what he had found. In the email, he noted that he was an "engineer."
Rather than looking into whether traffic light timing should be changed, however, the board sent Jarlstrom a warning -- and then a $500 fine for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Jarlstrom had violated one of Oregon's "Title Laws," which states that "no persons may ... hold themselves out as an 'engineer'" unless they are an "individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state." Jarlstrom has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and spent his career working in electronics, but wasn't board certified. He sued the state's engineering board and, last week, a U.S. District Court judge for the District of Oregon ruled that the state's law is unconstitutional. The judge wrote: "The statutes prohibit truthfully describing oneself as an 'engineer,' in any context. This restriction clearly controls and suppresses protected speech, and enforcement of the statute against protected speech is not a hypothetical threat. The term 'engineer,' standing alone, is neither actually nor inherently misleading. Courts have long recognized that the term 'engineer' has a generic meaning separate from 'professional engineer' and that the term has enjoyed 'widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.'"
"The judge ordered that the word 'engineer' be struck from Oregon's law, which is 'substantially overbroad in violation of the First Amendment' and specifically noted that Jarlstrom may describe himself publicly and privately using the word 'engineer' and that he may continue to talk about traffic light timing publicly," reports Motherboard.
Rather than looking into whether traffic light timing should be changed, however, the board sent Jarlstrom a warning -- and then a $500 fine for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Jarlstrom had violated one of Oregon's "Title Laws," which states that "no persons may ... hold themselves out as an 'engineer'" unless they are an "individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state." Jarlstrom has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and spent his career working in electronics, but wasn't board certified. He sued the state's engineering board and, last week, a U.S. District Court judge for the District of Oregon ruled that the state's law is unconstitutional. The judge wrote: "The statutes prohibit truthfully describing oneself as an 'engineer,' in any context. This restriction clearly controls and suppresses protected speech, and enforcement of the statute against protected speech is not a hypothetical threat. The term 'engineer,' standing alone, is neither actually nor inherently misleading. Courts have long recognized that the term 'engineer' has a generic meaning separate from 'professional engineer' and that the term has enjoyed 'widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.'"
"The judge ordered that the word 'engineer' be struck from Oregon's law, which is 'substantially overbroad in violation of the First Amendment' and specifically noted that Jarlstrom may describe himself publicly and privately using the word 'engineer' and that he may continue to talk about traffic light timing publicly," reports Motherboard.
There should be a distinction between "Engineer" and "Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon)." Just like someone licensed to practice medicine in New York can claim to be a physician, but can't practice legally in Oregon.
This guy sort of sounds like the type who would go to the ends of the earth to prove his point if he feels he's right. People like him are often the catalyst for change. Good for him.
Also, now I know not to piss off Swedish engineers.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
There is a lot of research that says the lights with cameras have the yellow light time a lot shorter than other lights, in order to maximize revenue. They should really replace the yellow light with a countdown timer before they can make people pay for entering the intersection a second after the light turns red! And yes, I've gotten caught be one of these in Tualitin myself, as I was hurrying to complete my right turn before the light went red.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
he was able to prove tickets were being written for those who legally pass through the lights. This means the city was going to lose money and the camera company was going to lose money too if changes were made. They had to do what they could to discredit and shut him up. It did not work.
>"Portland is "liberal", rest of the state not so much. In fact, it's been known for its racism and intolerance in the past"
Being "liberal" doesn't mean non-racist and tolerant. And being "conservative" doesn't mean being racist or intolerant. In fact, I see many, many, many cases where there is a reverse of what you said/implied and other cases where there is no relation whatsoever. Perhaps you didn't mean for it to sound like what you just said?
Oregon is a budding fascist state.
The fucking mayor of Portland is best buds with Antifa. He actually thanked them for their "protests".
The judge likely wanted to be a bit more comprehensive since he could see that the board was quite willing to abuse any hint of a technicality.
They went too far in the protection. The purpose of a licensed engineer was not to prevent people from using the word "engineer", but to provide certification for a limited set of jobs that needed a more formal designation. You don't just say "I'm an engineer" in such a position, you should say "I am an engineer licensed by the state of Oregon". Otherwise you may as well hand out $500 fines to any 6 year old pushing around a toy train who accidentally says "I'm the engineer!" It's just like the word "doctor", you can call yourself that all you want and if you're not practicing medicine or fooling people into giving you money for your medical advice.
They went to far in proactively fining a person for merely calling himself "engineer" in a context where he was not providing a professional service or engaging in a function where a licensed Professional Engineer was required.
The only "slimy" people were the people setting up the red light cameras with too-short yellow-light intervals, thus maximizing the possibility of extracting a fine from innocent drivers, as well as increasing the risk of a rear-end accident. In a just world, they'd be flogged to death in public.
>"In fact technically "liberal" comes from french and in terms of politics and philosophy refers to someone who believes in equal rights and the right to self determination"
And those can be achieved both though liberal and conservative means. Perfect "reverse" example is that hiring quotas, mostly supported by liberals, *are* racist. And most suppression of free speech nowadays seems to be coming from the left (traditionally defined as "liberal"). So it really depends on perspective, terms, and definitions. And on that topic, what used to be "liberal" in the USA is barely recognizable- it has fractured in some wild ways that don't at all resemble classic liberalism (things like identity politics, so-called "hate speech", and "equal outcomes"). Of course, that has happened with what used to be "conservative" also... although considerably less.
>"A separate axis is where you find conservative vs progressive. Essentially a conservative is risk-averse and fearful in dedication to maintaining things as they are while a progressive is open to taking risks in exchange for at minimum an equivalent benefit."
Right back to my point about terms. Now you are throwing in "progressive". I could just as easily describe progressive as just wanting change for change's sake and conservative as not wanting to make changes that remove liberty or try to force "equal outcomes". That doesn't quite fit, either.
>"The opposite on this axis is an authoritarian."
And yet authoritarianism is not conservativism.
>"Oddly the vast apparent majority of those who refer to themselves as "conservatives" tend to want to make radical changes and reforms."
And perhaps some of those changes they want to make are to revert things back to a more conservative state with regards to fiscal responsibility, for example?
What I was saying in my first reply is that ascribing blanket terms like "racism" to conservatives is not only factually incorrect and very poor form, but it is exactly the type of hyper-polarization and demonization, being fueled by the mass-media, that is causing such conflict and misunderstanding. Half the country is not racist and intolerant. And, on that same level, the other half of the country is not fiscally irresponsible and anti-constitutional.
Plus, very few people fit neatly on a single dot on one, linear scale. This is precisely why I think our two-party system is so hopelessly out of touch with what we want and need.... as if there are only two ways to address a problem, or only two sides to any complex issue.
Sorry, you have to get out of the blue cities for a while. While you can find racism in red America, that's true, you find it equally or even more so in blue America. It's hardly universal.
He is an engineer, and the court broke the government's neck for having the temerity to fine someone who dared talk to them, the government, which is in violation of the First Amendment.
The people do not have to dance the government's self-defined fine line when discussing things.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
He was clearly a citizen talking to those in power, who are not allowed to dissuade him from doing so with punishment.
Doing engineering may require a PE, but talking to government about policies does not, and cannot.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
You are completely off base.
This guy is a graduate from KTH, the one of the two highest ranked technical institutions in Sweden, the second being Chalmers. His education is not one iota different from the people who are building radar systems, mobile phone systems, fighter jets etc.
HE IS AN ENGINEER! He's not fudging anything. He's not a certified PE in Oregon, but that a) doesn't make one not an Engineer and b) he never claimed to be anything such. The ones "fudging" stuff are the bureaucrats in Oregon who lied about him claiming the PE title.
Get your head out of your ass.
He already is an engineer, just not licensed in OR.
The board was completely wrong on this very spiteful ruling.
Pretty sure they just didn't like to be shown up by an outsider.
I've seen this mentality in many public servant professionals;
school administrators are the worst offenders, though.
Anyway, this is a good, common sense ruling - a rare sight in this day and age!
CAP === 'pothole'
Funny how the people (Antifa) who violently oppose a person (Trump) who is a massive supporter of Israel and surrounded by Jews, are calling other people "Nazis."
If he had tried to do the same thing to the judge, the person would have come down pretty hard on him. Judges take personation of a BAR certified lawyer very seriously. But since he was only upsetting engineers, the judge didn't care.
So to you the AntiFa are the fascists, and the openly racist and bigoted MAGA-hat wearers waving their Nazi and Confederate flags are the good guy and the real "patriots". Go fuck yourself you anti-American piece of shit
No middle ground between the two eh? It's easy to spot the extremists, they only see in black and white with no gray. AntiFa are very much thugs and should be more seriously hunted because they actually attack people. There is a huge difference between peacefully marching, even for a cause one disagrees with such as Nazis, and attacking people. The political process can deal with Nazis as they never have much support in this country. However the method of attacking people you disagree with opens a *much* more dangerous can of worms. This is obvious quite honestly - I'm always amazed at anyone who doesn't denounce AntiFa and anyone else who practices political violence on principle.
I've studied and operated as a professional computer scientist and electronics engineer with a degree and dozens of certifications (generic and vendor specific) for decades.
Today is the first time I've heard of the term "Professional Engineer" or even PE. I've never heard of a "Government board certified professional engineer"
The reason for this is that I've only worked in engineering professions where degrees are issued by universities based on performance in school and also in positions where the industry regulates based on their own trust system.
I just read the link at NSPE.org that you provided and after reading it, unless there was a specific job which required that I wasted time and resources on such a certification, I wouldn't. They sell the thing like a two bit whore. Click the link "Why get licensed?"
I could clearly see the value of this paper as something truly meaningful if your education was a trade skill, like electrician or plumber. After all, these are apprenticeships and there should be some formal process of calling yourself a plumber before an insurance company will back your work. It can't just be that some guy named Joe, a clear educational expert since he has his name on the truck says "He's a plumber".
But for someone that is formally trained and tested over a period of 3-12 years at a university, this type of certification is useless.
NSPE even lists money and prestige as a selling point of their cert.
I think that PE should not be protected either and Professional Engineer also should not be protected. Instead, it should have to clearly state "Oregon State Board Certified Professional Engineer".
After all... as someone that knows nothing about Oregon's politics and whether the board is corrupt or not (and from the web site, it looks fishy... like a fund raising scam) why in the world would I trust someone certified by the state board of Oregon? In fact, other than their web site and news articles about this, I can't find any meaningful reference to the Oregon's state board. This seems suspicious to me.
The moment you accept that violence is an acceptable response to opinions is the moment that your turn evil.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
He was attempting to indicate that he wasn't some rube with a high school education that they could blow off, but someone who actually understood the engineering principles involved.
They knew he understood that they were shaving the times on the lights to create revenue and were attempting to shut him up and/or discredit him before enough people noticed to actually take them to court over their already legally established practice. A court had already said that municipalities and states were not allowed to do that.
Instead he took them to court and won. Now hopefully he or someone will follow up and hold the people responsible for fiddling with the light also accountable.