Russia Tries To Force Facebook, Twitter To Relocate Servers To Russia (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The Russian government agency responsible for censorship on the Internet has accused Facebook and Twitter of failing to comply with a law requiring all servers that store personal data to be located in Russia. Roskomnadzor, the Russian censorship agency, "said the social-media networks hadn't submitted any formal and specific plans or submitted an acceptable explanation of when they would meet the country's requirements that all servers used to store Russians' personal data be located in Russia," The Wall Street Journal reported today. Roskomnadzor said it sent letters to Facebook and Twitter on December 17, giving them 30 days to provide "a legally valid response." With the 30 days having passed, the agency said that "Today, Roskomnadzor begins administrative proceedings against both companies." The law went into effect in September 2015, but Russia has had trouble enforcing it. "At the moment, the only tools Russia has to enforce its data rules are fines that typically only come to a few thousand dollars or blocking the offending online services, which is an option fraught with technical difficulties," a Reuters article said today.

According to The Journal, "Facebook and Twitter could be fined for not providing information to the watchdog."

Comments

Bigger fines will get attention

[magzteel]

Like the fines for GDPR violations

https://www.zdnet.com/article/...

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Russia wants the servers so it can spy better.

There is nothing noble going on here, assuming GDPR is noble.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Opportunist]

GDPR didn't accomplish jack shit. The ones it wanted to target have simply dumped a gigabyte of legalese on their products with a "click here to accept" button attached to it, knowing that nobody will read it, while smaller webpages now have the looming Damocletian sword of shysters trying to extort money hanging above their heads (running along the lines of "we noticed you forgot some bullshit nitpick in your GDPR declaration, and we could ruin you, of course we can simply forget that we saw it if you pay us a few hundred bucks").

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[ShanghaiBill]

Like the fines for GDPR violations

Not really the same. Facebook has a huge presence in the EU, with offices in many countries.

They have only a handful of employees in Russia, and (I believe) no office there.

Russia has little leverage to enforce a fine.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but to be frank it's not like the EU didn't see companies flee as a result of the GDPR. My company left as a result. There are also lots of web sites that aren't easily accessible in Europe now either. Try accessing sites that don't target the EU, but one in the EU might want to read. A company in the US that doesn't target Europe, but is of value to access from Europe puts Europeans at a disadvantage. The sites I'm thinking of are US news sites, but it' snot exclusive to those types of sites. There are many stories from local publications that I can't read in Europe despite being linked to from places like Slashdot. Doesn't that annoy you? It should. Your government is asking the world to obey its laws even when the world doesn't operate in the EU. It's not feasible for every company to comply with every FOREIGN law. That would be absurd and unreasonable and many small companies have responded with a big fuck you to Europe as a result.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[dnaumov]

Companies not willing to comply having to leave is a feature, not a bug. We don't want those companies here.

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[Zero__Kelvin]

Nothing will draw more attention because the whole thing is ludicrous. Facebook is in the USA. Unless they open up brick and mortar stores there they don't "do business" in Russia. Their business is in the USA and foregneirs "travel" here. If Russians fly to Florida to go to Disneyworld they are doing business in the USA and if they connect through their ISPs to Facebook's servers in the USA they are, likewise, doing business in the USA.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[rtb61]

It also makes American spying more difficult. It is entirely reasonable for any country to demand data about it's citizens be kept in that country for audit and the means to force it of course is by targeting all income generated by it and of course to implement custodial sentences for purposeful intent to thwart it. So make it illegal to pay for ads on that service, to copy the USA, as a sanctioned 'FOREIGN' corporation, with intent to thwart income generation activities. Who cares about securing the data to force compliance, it is all about purposefully impact the income generating capabilities in the country enforcing it's laws.

So using a court case to bring down a judgement of income sanctioning activity of the non compliant foreign corporation, copying 'AMERICAN' tactics, in a fashion. With of course, surprise, surprise, surprise, arrests without warning, again mimicking American actions.

Any county should demand that data about it's citizens be stored in country and only in country, this to protect and secure that data and penalise corporations that fail to secure that data or attempt to gain more data than they are legally allowed, especially with regard to minors. Penalising activities should take the form of court ordered sanctions to disrupt the economic activities of the corporation in country and extend to custodial sentences for purposeful intent to thwart those regulations, targeted at the individuals who wilfully acted against the law, local and foreign.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Koby77]

Of course, there are then consequences for companies leaving. 1.) Job loss, 2.) risk of angry citizens if blocking/censorship occurs 3.) technological stagnation as few people want to deploy time/money/resources in a repressive country, if they could choose to deploy anywhere else, 4.) visitors mocking a repressive country for not being able to access something viewed as a common utility, 5.) websites that leave may continue to advertise in your country anyhow if the businesses can get money overseas to pay for the ads, leading to all the downside risks with no benefit of control,

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Dan East]

The US has no law that prevents its citizens from using online services anywhere in the world. No, it is not reasonable for countries to demand that data about citizens reside in some specific country for "audit". Let me use an analogy. A Russian citizen sees an advertisement for my product in a magazine. They mail my company an international money order, and we ship them the product. Do I have to have an office space in Russia in which to physically store their name, address and invoice information since I have it written down in a ledger in some other country? How reasonable is that? What "privacy" are they trying to protect about their dear citizens anyway?

Just because it is easier to try and regulate digital things does not make this any more reasonable.

Oh, and let me explain something else. The US dominates globally in the online arena. You get a perk by being the winner, and that perk is that your technology is in demand globally. The economic and capitalistic environment in the US fosters the environment in which the tech products that dominate the world are created. So you have a country like Russia, who wants to have unreasonable control over its citizens, essentially jealous of this fact - a huge imbalance in people patronizing US online services vastly more than Russian online services. If Russia cannot compete in this space, and cannot attract users (even within their own country) to services created within Russia, then they pass laws like this to try and get their grimy fingers on at least some of the data.

The ironic part is you worry about "American spying" on Russians, when Russians have way, way more to fear from their own government spying on them. You are essentially saying that it's perfectly fine for Russia to spy on their citizens, and have the ability to track *everything* they do online. As long as it isn't America doing it that's perfectly okay. Companies like Apple are basically giving US agencies a big middle finger, and implementing stuff at the hardware level to protect user's data. You think that would happen if Apple were a Russian company?

Anyway, nice attempt at spinning this and justifying Russia's lack of rights and privacy abuses against its own citizens.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Cederic]

The GDPR is just jingoistic regulation for use to attack companies in a trade war

No, it's not. Don't be such a fucking idiot. The world does not revolve around you and your inability to understand basic consumer protections.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Cederic]

The US has no law that prevents its citizens from using online services anywhere in the world.

Of course it does. Try using a service from Iran or Cuba. Try using an online gambling site.

No, it is not reasonable for countries to demand that data about citizens reside in some specific country for "audit"

Of course it is. That it's a serious fucking pain to comply with doesn't make it unreasonable, it makes it a cost of doing business in that country.

A Russian citizen sees an advertisement for my product in a magazine. They mail my company an international money order, and we ship them the product. Do I have to have an office space in Russia in which to physically store their name, address and invoice information since I have it written down in a ledger in some other country? How reasonable is that?

Wait, you want to import products into Russia without complying with Russian law? I'd say you're being the unreasonable cunt here.

If Russia cannot compete in this space, and cannot attract users (even within their own country) to services created within Russia, then they pass laws like this to try and get their grimy fingers on at least some of the data.

Or maybe they believe that data residency helps reduce their citizens' exposure to corporate malpractice, as epitomised by companies based in California.

Anyway, nice attempt at spinning this and justifying Russia's lack of rights and privacy abuses against its own citizens.

Russia's misbehaviour towards its own citizens doesn't excuse your attempts to be just as big a cunt towards them.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Cederic]

You forgot a few, such as new competitor services being created that succeed without fucking over the people they're providing service to. Or that little one about people in Europe not being exploited senselessly by mindless corporations prioritising profits over social impacts.

Sure, I've encountered companies selling products I'm interested in buying that refuse to sell to Europe because they don't want to comply with GDPR. Some of them may even behave ethically. I'm willing for them to lose my business if it means everybody else has to fucking behave.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Jahoda]

Did you get an extra turnip for dinner for your hard work with bullshit whataboutism, comrade? I like how you even threw in the bit about minors. Comedy fucking gold.

Re:Bigger fines will get attention

[Munich Munchkin]

The US dominates globally in the online arena. This is the key point. The US has done this for decades and not really given a crap about how the rest of the world has felt about that. Also US authorities have engaged in what other see as actions that they would equally like to engage in. The rest of the world has been playing catch up and now they are catching up suddenly the US is crying "no fair !"

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[magzteel]

Nothing will draw more attention because the whole thing is ludicrous. Facebook is in the USA. Unless they open up brick and mortar stores there they don't "do business" in Russia. Their business is in the USA and foregneirs "travel" here. If Russians fly to Florida to go to Disneyworld they are doing business in the USA and if they connect through their ISPs to Facebook's servers in the USA they are, likewise, doing business in the USA.

You don't understand GDPR. The presence of brick and mortar stores is irrelevant.
GDPR does not apply to Russia but they certainly could enact similar data privacy regulations.

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[Zero__Kelvin]

You don't understand the internet, how laws work, or both. GDPR is not a US law and therefore doesn't apply in the US.

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[magzteel]

You don't understand the internet, how laws work, or both. GDPR is not a US law and therefore doesn't apply in the US.

You shouldn't make declarative statements about things you know nothing about. Wait, this is slashdot, carry on.

If you decide to learn something start with the GDPR FAQS:
From https://eugdpr.org/the-regulat...

"The GDPR not only applies to organisations located within the EU but also applies to organisations located outside of the EU if they offer goods or services to, or monitor the behaviour of, EU data subjects. It applies to all companies processing and holding the personal data of data subjects residing in the European Union, regardless of the company’s location."

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[Zero__Kelvin]

It doesn't matter what is written in the law, because again, the law doesn't apply in the USA. They don't have jurisdiction.

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[magzteel]

It doesn't matter what is written in the law, because again, the law doesn't apply in the USA. They don't have jurisdiction.

They can definitely regulate the business activities of companies doing business in the EU, and they can levy fines for non-compliance.
Business activities do not require physical presence.
Some companies have chosen compliance, other have chosen to stop doing business. It depends on the value of the business.
I was involved with a project that chose compliance. It was a big undertaking.

Not sure about the case where a company outside the EU is not doing business in the EU but is handling data of EU citizens.

Re: Bigger fines will get attention

[Zero__Kelvin]

In this case, because they have servers there they are doing business in the UK, however if they moved those servers to the US then you would have the situation you described in your last paragraph. You might not be sure about how that would work but I am, and as I have been saying throughout this thread, there is nothing they can do since they have no jurisdiction.

Not to worry, Comrade!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

"Not to worry, Comrade! Your data perfectly safe with us!"

I see nothing sinister about this at all, not even a little teensy-tiny bit.

Re:Not to worry, Comrade!

[Chris Mattern]

53 minutes to the Russian troll. You'd better pick up the pace, or they'll stop paying you.

Re:Not to worry, Comrade!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I agree it may not be any better, but it surely has the potential to be worse.

I mean, Facebook servers operating in Russia, what could possibly go wrong?

Re:Not to worry, Comrade!

[AmiMoJo]

Now you know how Europeans feel about servers in the US. That episode with he FBI trying to force Microsoft to violate EU law to get data held on servers in Ireland proved the need to have servers storing your data in safe legal jurisdictions.

Of course Russia probably isn't thinking about protecting the rights of its citizens, quite the opposite.

Re:Not to worry, Comrade!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Hey there, shitbag. You're nothing but a fear-mongering, goose stepping bitch.

Oh noes, did I trigger you?

Re: Not to worry, Comrade!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Damn Boris, you got back to him in only 37 minutes. I feel slighted...

Re:What difference does THAT make?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this guy is OpenBordersLiberal-tarian on the Reason.com forum. Sock account. Posts nonsense but occasionally forgets to log out of the sock account and posts as himself.

Will they even have a choice?

[SuperKendall]

Seems like at some point if you want to keep working in some countries you have to do as they say. See: China.

Re:Will they even have a choice?

[AHuxley]

China, The UK Commonwealth, all 5 eye nations. The past with the US efforts with PRISM and junk US crypto.
The same US tech brands did not keep out China, the USA, the UK.
Now suddenly everyone discovers an understanding of private sector privacy and the need for powerful private sector crypto?

Good: They don't operate in Russia so fsck them

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing to me that people actually thing these sorts of laws are a good idea. Besides that the governments abuse them anyway. GDPR, Russia's laws, etc are just messed up. If you don't want your data shared don't share it. It's not like anybody is forcing you to sign up to Facebook. The only one using violence here is the government. It's the government you should fear. It's not that Facebook or Twitter are the good guys. It's that those who partake in that relationship have done so voluntarily. When the government gets involved you no longer have a choice. If you refuse they will be violent and abusive to get there way. Either they will steal from you, kidnap you, or worse. I don't see Facebook doing any of those things.

why not install mirrors in Russia

[FudRucker]

decentralize the domain, put a mirror in Russia, a mirror in France, and the main website remains in the USA and use rsync on the systems once an hour that just keeps the new data in sync

Re:why not install mirrors in Russia

[roc97007]

That would make sense, but I wonder if the Russian law allows for copies existing in other countries at all. It depends on what the intent of the law was. If privacy, then, I'd think no, rsyncs will not be allowed. But if it's so Russia can more easily mine their citizens data, then they may not care if there are copies or where they are.

How about telling Russia to go f themselves?

[laxr5rs]

There's no reason to comply.

Re:How about telling Russia to go f themselves?

[AHuxley]

The CIA and MI6 really do like giving their Russian spies a "computer" network method to communicate with.
No having to wonder around Russia in person to place data to pick up in person.
Then having a US NGO/embassy worker/tourist collect the spy data up in person.
To then get caught in a wig with Russian secrets on them in person.
Much better to have the Russian spy risk everything alone by using the "internet" to send data sets back out to the West.
That needs working US crypto on normal looking internet services to be advanced, secure and well outside Russia.

Russia has the skills and ability to place 24/7 teams on every US embassy worker, NGO, academic in Russia.
Going out to pick up spy material in person is a risk in Russia over months, years.

So the CIA and MI6 need a internet method to keep communicating.
Big brand internet services have to keep working from outside into Russia or a lot of Western spies will have to hand data over in person again.
The USA and UK do not have enough of their own spies in Russia to go out and collect all that data in person.
Too many Russian people got recruited in the 1990's to spy for the USA/UK and only know the "internet" to send out the results of their decades of spying.

Got to keep that social media going for spying and stating another color revolution.

In the West PRISM had to use junk crypto to allow all communications to be accessed.
In Russia the West internet crypto has to work every day, all day :)
The West cant allow their only way to communicate with their many spies to be lost to a legal request.
A generation of Russians will get their last internet message about how to learn old tradecraft.
The West has two options. Let big brand social media go like in China.
Totally change all spying methods to get data out of Russia.

Re:How about telling Russia to go f themselves?

[Rockoon]

Those fines will start adding up. Facebook/etc can ignore the fines until they want to sell the company, merge with another, or divest in bankrupcy and then they will have to pay them.

It works the same if you take one of these companies to small claims court. You win a default judgment, but you still wont see any money.... until one of the above things happens, and which point they absolutely have to settle these outstanding judgments against them.

sounds good to me

[geoskd]

Then we can all stop pretending.

slightly misleading summary

[roc97007]

At first I was going to say, of course they meant personal data from Russian citizens, not all personal data.

But then, I thought, maybe I'd better check...

But yeah, TFM says that Russia is requiring servers containing personal data from Russian citizens be hosted in Russia. Not, like, all personal data in existence.

And ...enh... gotta say, that's not an unreasonable request. I know that were it my personal data, I'd feel more comfortable were it physically hosted in my country.

Am I off base here?

Re:slightly misleading summary

[Rockoon]

Nope. You are spot on.

LOL, yeah right

[p51d007]

How about this soviet Russia...instead of relocating servers to soviet Russia, how about they just give you root access to ALL Fakebook servers? Same thing...

Circumvent the law

[Dan East]

There should be a way to adhere to the letter of the law, yet give Russia the shaft. Like.... set up data storage centers in Russia to store all Russian user data. However the data first goes to the US where it is encrypted with keys only residing on US servers. On retrieval it passes again through non-Russian servers for decryption. So yes, the data is safe and sound in Russia, and is only stored in Russia. However it can't be utilized from there. I'm sure the Russian oligarchs will sleep extremely well at night knowing their citizens data is so securely stored and encrypted. Because, you know, they always have the best interests of their comrades at heart.

Re:found the libtard.

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Ask your doctor if "not being a dumbfuck" is right for you.

It comes in a convenient suppository form so I know you'll like it.