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Foxconn Is Reconsidering Plan For Wisconsin Factory (cnn.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The New York Times: Foxconn, the giant Taiwan-based company that announced plans for a $10 billion display-making factory in Wisconsin, now says it is rethinking the project's focus because of "new realities" in the global marketplace (Warning source may be paywalled; alternative source). The company said Wednesday that it remained committed to creating as many as 13,000 jobs in Wisconsin, and continued to "actively consider opportunities" involving flat-screen technology. But it said it was also "examining ways for Wisconsin's knowledge workers to promote research and development." "The global market environment that existed when the project was first announced has changed," Foxconn said in a statement. "As our plans are driven by those of our customers, this has necessitated the adjustment of plans for all projects, including Wisconsin." But the company said its presence in Wisconsin remained a priority, and said it was "broadening the base of our investment" there. The statement followed a Reuters report quoting Louis Woo, a special assistant to Foxconn's chairman, Terry Gou, as saying that the costs of manufacturing screens for televisions and other consumer products are too high in the United States. "In terms of TV, we have no place in the U.S.," Mr. Woo told Reuters. "We can't compete." Some Wisconsin Republicans blamed the company's change in plans on the election of Gov. Tony Evers, a Democrat, to succeed Mr. Walker, a Republican, in November. In a joint statement, Assembly Speaker Robin Vos and the Senate majority leader, Scott Fitzgerald, said it was "not surprising Foxconn would rethink building a manufacturing plant in Wisconsin under the Evers administration." The lawmakers added: "The company is reacting to the wave of economic uncertainty that the new governor has brought with his administration."
Have you seen the deal that Wisconsin was going to give them at the expense of the taxpayers? No one was going to benefit from that arrangement except for Foxconn. They could have put all that money towards encouraging tech development in their state instead.
This just gave them an excuse to go all out, instead of downsizing their overly ambitious plans, which despite the 3+ billion in tax incentives wasn't going to add more than... 1000? jobs in the near term future, and probably would never add the full 13000 jobs that was promised.
But the election of a Democrat to replace him gives them both an excuse not to lose face and blame it on the incoming administration while being able to abort their failed project that would have otherwise made both Walker/future Republican candidates as well as Foxconn look incompetent or untrustworthy.
The loss of potential jobs is going to hurt Wisconsin in the short term but if the people can support each other in the meanwhile it will work out better for them in the long term when they aren't subsidizing companies to the detriment of their local and state tax revenue, necessary for all the services they might need, including unemployment if those jobs don't work out.
Personally I would like to see the federal government stop giving out state aid and only take the money required to operate the federal government and the armed services themselves, and leave the state level infrastructure and planning to the states. That way when a state fucks themselves up they have only themselves to blame, whether that state is California, New York, Florida or Wisconsin.
How is that news? The "other guy" or the "other party" is always to blame for every unpleasant event. Politicians point fingers out of reflex.
Table-ized A.I.
What the tanj is he doing in this corner of Known Space
I'm sure.....
Because if my biggest customer had a ~20% decrease in sales of an item I am a primary supplier for I sure as hell wouldn't re-evaluate major capital investment plans.... Nope not at all.
research and development H1B needed to get a job in that there.
It wanted $4 billion in tax breaks for only promising 3000 jobs ("up to" 13000 my ass), i.e $1.33 million per job, or $346k per job even if they hired all 13000.
Average wage was expected to be around $50-60k/year.
You do the math. Wisconsin would have been subsidising Chinas Foxconn between 5 years free labor and 24 years free labor.
There was nothing in the contract stopping Foxconn walking away from the factory once the free labor ended. Wisconsin would have been better investing in local companies.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-06/wisconsin-s-deal-with-foxconn-is-the-worst-of-corporate-welfare
Heu, no...
But in other news, I hear that a renowned IT clerk living in San Jose and taking public transit to go to work in Palo Alto is finally reconsidering plan for his long tail revenue streams. It's about time!
https://slashdot.org/~The+Orig...
I never would have imagined that Foxconn would pull a bait and switch on those astute negotiators in Wisconsin. Paul Ryan himself was there. Trump toured the tech college that hosted the Foxconn dog and pony show. It was all there, and all perfect.
Foxconn has always followed through on their grand plans that they announce with local dignitaries present.
See title.
Yes, Trump got played like a baby by Foxconn. They roped him like a baby calf and he was more than happy to buy their ridiculous claims. Anyone who was watching this knew that the likelihood of Foxconn building a huge plant in Wisconsin was near zero.
To all you Wisconsin voters who believed Trump's blather and his insane, over-the-top promises, sorry, but you got exactly what you voted for: a giant bag of bullshit.
-
PS- Coal isn't coming back either; it's as dead as disco. Your first fucking clue should have been the Kentucky Coal Museum installing solar panels on its roof. (It's true, look it up.) But that just wasn't obvious enough for you, was it?
Still, don't worry- I hear the new Space Force rockets will be powered by "beautiful clean coal".
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
What Red state. The Republicans in Wisconsin were soundly defeated in every race that was not gerrymandered to an extreme.
Wisconsin is a purple state.
Haha, yeah, no, this is going exactly as Foxconn planned. And, yes, they are planning to keep all the perks.
I'm sure.....
Because if my biggest customer had a ~20% decrease in sales of an item I am a primary supplier for I sure as hell wouldn't re-evaluate major capital investment plans.... Nope not at all.
It couldn't be bacause they were looking for a bigger tax break? 3 Billion dollars here, 3 Billion there. After a while you are talking big money.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
So they can come to America and steal our IP
They're not leaving, they were never there.
Apple doesn't use Foxconn displays. They use a mix of displays from Samsung (for OLEDs) and LG (LCDs, and possibly OLEDs in the future if LG can fix production problems). In any case: they don't use Foxconn displays. What they use Foxconn for is assembling the iPhone, the individual components are mostly sourced from other companies.
And, in fact, that's the problem. Manufacturing LCD displays in Wisconsin makes no sense whatsoever. This is the main problem American manufacturers have: most of the raw materials to make these things are being refined in Asia, and most of the final assembly is also in Asia, so manufacturing a component in the US means you have to ship raw materials to the US from Asia and then ship the component back to Asia for it to be put in whatever it's going to end up in. Needless to say, that's far more expensive then just shipping parts around Asia.
See title.
Yes, Trump got played like a baby by Foxconn. They roped him like a baby calf and he was more than happy to buy their ridiculous claims.
Despite the article saying specifically that it was the election of a Democrat that changed their mind?
You sure about that? Only mention of it being politically related (and not economically) was this part:
Some Wisconsin Republicans blamed the company's change in plans on the election of Gov. Tony Evers, a Democrat
Wait....One side is blaming the other for all the problems?! WOW! I'm shocked! Shocked! ....Well, not that shocked.
in the first place.
This was always just them extracting money from Wisconsin tax payers (and all of the United States, since like a lot of Red states Wisconsin takes in more than it pays out in fed taxes) in exchange for bribes.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
he got exactly what he wanted out of the deal: a political prop to use for winning the 2016 election. A fair trade for a bunch of tax dollars collected mostly from working class Americans.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
The contract failed an audit, it didn't require the employee work in Wisconsin to count as a worker at Wisconsin, it only needed them to be paid out of that office. Foxconn would have transferred their US employees payroll to Wisconsin to take advantage of the tax break.
https://dailyreporter.com/2018/12/20/audit-faults-plans-to-credit-foxconn-for-work-outside-state/
"Wisconsin’s economic-development agency needs to modify procedures to ensure tax credits aren’t awarded for Foxconn Technology Group employees who don’t do work in the state, which would violate state law and the state’s contract with the company, an audit released Wednesday said....The Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation incorrectly wrote guidelines that would allow Foxconn employees who are not doing work in the state, but who are paid in Wisconsin, to be included in the tally, the audit said."
And for the workers, well they were planning to bring in Chinese workers:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/foxconn-considers-bringing-chinese-personnel-to-wisconsin-as-u-s-labor-market-tightens-1541505600
"Foxconn Technology Group is considering bringing in personnel from China to help staff a large facility under construction in southern Wisconsin as it struggles to find engineers and other workers in one of the tightest labor markets in the U.S."
It didn't pass the sniff test. It looked like one giant tax game for Foxconn.
Under the new Republican corporate tax deal, it's cheaper to earn the money abroad, and repatriate that money at the 8% repatriation tax rate into the US rather than earn it in the US (at 21% corporation tax), so Foxconns tax deal isn't as sweet as it would have been.
Mod this up, please.
so it is the wrong mob figure running shit now. ok, no deal. no suitcase full of dough, ok.
... and it's well known here that Foxconn was never really going to bring 13,000 jobs to Wisconsin, because of what they did in Pennsylvania. The whole thing was a stunt to help get Gov Walker and Trump get reelected. It failed, Walker lost in November. Now we'll see what happens to President Shutdown.
Bingo! The USA has already lost too much industry to Asia to recover. Making America Great Again is going to take a lot longer than Trump's two terms.
Put your own hatred aside and do some research into Foxconn's previous behavior. This isn't Foxconn's first foreign rodeo. They've done this in more than a dozen other countries. They come in, claim they're going to build the mother of all factories there, but say "oh please we need to see what you're going to offer in exchange for us gracing your location with our presence", countries/municipalities throw everything plus a Home Depot's worth of kitchen sinks at them. Foxconn says "Very nice!" and then they choose a winner. After all the ink is dry, then they start scaling back what they promised, sometimes drastically. They're doing the same here.
Anyone who looked into their past foreign expansions could see the pattern clear as day playing out in Wisconsin. Trump and Walker got played because they didn't even bother having a few interns do a couple hours of Google searches into Foxconn's other ventures. And Foxconn is now using the Democrats as an excuse because it's a convenient way to scale back (and keep most of the subsidies) without even an apology.
I am aware of this.
I'm not suggesting the plant was for producing items for apple. My suggestion is that they are forecasting a significant reduction in revenue as a result of less orders from Apple. This reduction in revenue in one part of the business now means that capital investments will be reviewed across the whole business. If you have less money coming in you are going to be less bullish about expanding.
Tax breaks are a reduction in expenses. It is not income received.
While it may result in a higher net profit for the company at the end it doesn't offset the reduction in free capital that investing in plant requires.
See title.
Yes, Trump got played like a baby by Foxconn. They roped him like a baby calf and he was more than happy to buy their ridiculous claims.
Despite the article saying specifically that it was the election of a Democrat that changed their mind?
Regarding the Trump thing, you're complaining about something that doesn't go our way in the middle of the situation. The right time to pass judgement is when it's all over, when the dust has settled, and when we can evaluate whether minor setbacks in the middle were worth the overall outcome.
Similar with the N. Korea peace negotiations. These things take time, there will be some back and forth, and possibly nothing will come of it... but now is not the time to make judgement. Let the situation play out, and *then* figure out whether we are better off. At the very least, the president talked us out of a nuclear war.
State governments giving away billions in tax benefits is arguably a bad idea. How long would it take for 13,000 additional labor-jobs to be worth the loss of $3 billion in tax credits? Even if you account for add-on benefits to the economy, it would take decades... and depending on inflation and other details, the deal might possibly never be revenue neutral.
We really don't know at this point whether this is good or bad for the US, and the tendency to blame Trump for every little thing that irks you in the country is tedious as hell.
Grow up, set your hatred aside, and post something insightful for a change.
No, the article did not say it was because a Democrat got elected. It said the REPUBLICANS said that was why.
"Republicans who control Wisconsin’s Legislature suggested that the arrival of Gov. Tony Evers, the Democrat who ousted Mr. Walker, was partly to blame."
For this particular plant, Foxconn was going to make displays; however, I do not think Apple does not get their iPhone displays from Foxconn. They use Samsung and LG from what I know. So Apple not doing well wouldn't mean much to this plant.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
But having spoken to people on both sides of the political divide, the right, at least here in California, is parroting Fox news verbatim, and the right is parroting cnn/wapo/huffpo/etc.
Hopefully you Wisconsinites have straight heads on your shoulders than the average Californian seems to at this time. We need both parties brought to heel, and perhaps a few more contenders in the mix to help break up the cognitive dissonance we are getting from the allegedly two party system, that seems to be playing us all like fools, while swapping handies with each other in the lavish congressional bathroom stalls.
Except that a decrease in apple sales = less money at foxconn = less money available to invest = reconsidering capital investments, irrespective of whether they are dependent on apple or not.
When this deal was originally discussed on /., there were many ignorant people pushing this incorrect narrative then. I see that you did not learn the truth at that time.
The deal calls for payments (not just tax reductions) from the state to Foxconn. They are called tax credits -- but if the company's tax is negative because of the credits, money will flow from the state to the company.
This is similar to tax credits for solar power installations -- if your taxes go negative, you get a check from the government (unlike credits for electric vehicles, which cannot result in you getting a check from the government).
They only issue now is how much of the credits are dependent on performance by Foxconn.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Where's the value for Foxconn to use American workers?
They're expensive. Wisconsin is a union state too. Which means that Foxconn will have union labor issues just building the factory and keeping it running will just be a nightmare.
As for skills, Wisconsin the state has no fiscal responsibility, it has not fiscal stability, it has an almost 3rd world infrastructure. It's educational level is #18 in the country which means the most common answer to questions asked by students in a classroom is "Duh, I don't know".
It's better to pay more to stay in China. It's just more cost effective and the workers are smarter, more creative, more motivated and more skilled.
Now that Walker is out and there's no one willing to pay Foxconn to be there, there's no point staying.
That is different to a tax break to which I was replying.
Tax credits are a different thing entirely, though usually you would expect them to be a non-refunding tax credit. It would allow them to be carried forward and for them to sit as an asset on a balance sheet, but not normally claim as cash.
If it is a refundable tax credit then whoever negotiated that deal from the government side is almost criminally negligent.
As a european I view both republicans and democrats are extreme right
I guess you would consider me to be a communist
Quite frankly, given Cheeto's political ranting stirring up anti-chinese (and for a lot of people, Chinese = Taiwanese) sentiment, and a fickle mercurial president that is more likely to tax the items... I would be loth to the Wisconsin deal as well.. there is too much uncertainty coming from the fed space.
I think people forget that business (international commerce) depends on stability... when one side goes wacko.. then the risks outweigh the benefit. (and its not like Foxconn would be making serious bank to offset the risks)
is final.
Trump's tariffs don't help. That factory needs to be supplied from China.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Similar with the N. Korea peace negotiations. These things take time, there will be some back and forth, and possibly nothing will come of it... but now is not the time to make judgement. Let the situation play out, and *then* figure out whether we are better off. At the very least, the president talked us out of a nuclear war.
HAHA, as if Trump talked you out of a nuclear war.
NK would never launch a nuclear weapon unless it was first attacked by the South and/or the US.
If they made the first strike the nuke card would be played and NK would be turned to ash by retaliatory attacks.
It's like the BS that Trump is pushing that NK is going to give up its nukes, why the hell would they? If they did then they will have lost their only bargaining chip and the rest of the world would just go back to ignoring NK.
NK doesn't want to attack anyone with their nukes, they just want to ensure the longevity of the regime, and nukes give them that power.
Trump was played yet again.
Yes, somehow the Foxconn execs had no idea that governors in US states face elections, and that a different governor from the other party can take over! Such utter nonsense, bullshit excuse.
Back to reality, Foxconn conned Walker, Trump, and the state of Wisconsin. Wisconsin taxpayers are on the hook for $4B+ in tax breaks to Foxconn for whatever small research facility Foxconn does open in Wisconsin. To me with that large of tax break it seems like Foxconn will be getting to set up shop in Wisconsin for free!
End corporate welfare. To all of the supposed arguments that in the end the amount of economic activity these companies bring to the area will offset the tax breaks, look at Foxconn in Wisconsin.
Do you know who is creating that IP in the US? Yup, those H1Bs...
"If it is a refundable tax credit then whoever negotiated that deal from the government side is almost criminally negligent"
Or they were anticipating kickbacks from foxconn, in which case they're even more of a criminal. There's enough money involved that this becomes highly plausible.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Whenever your team loses despite having a majority of the votes it is justified.
While "tyranny of the majority" is bad, "tyranny of the minority" is worse.
The new reality they are referring to is the coming hard shift to the left and the return of Obama-style state-sponsored terrorism against business and earning a living.
It is also not going to involve any component manufacturing.
There are two ways forward. Either start mining raw materials and compete with Africa or focus on final assembly for the US market.
The middle-ware is just going to mean that stuff gets shipped back and forth.
You can focus on design only, but China doesn't really get anything from not copying it and there is no leverage to pressure them into it.
Any value has to come from something tangible.
"We need both parties brought to heel, and perhaps a few more contenders in the mix"
Nope. Third party candidates have zero chance to get elected, and they just confuse the issue. Political parties were never mentioned in the Constitution because they were seen as a plague, but just giving up on regulating them was a total failure which should immediately and conclusively put paid to the rumors of the founders' genius. At this point the only way we'll get a credible third party is if there's sufficient schism within one of the major parties that it splits in two, but thanks to partisan dumbshits in voting booths, that would all but guarantee a win for the other side. Sadly, the only party that might actually split would be the Democrats. The Republicans have demonstrated time and again that they are united in screwing over the nation, and the Democrats have ultimately proven that they are disconnected and thus ineffectual. The Republicans hang together, and the rest of us twist in the wind.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yes
As a Swede I find the Democrats to be similar to our party "Nya Moderaterna", a liberal-conservative party with its roots in the old conservative party. So no, the Democrats are not extreme right in European terms.
The GOP in Wisconsin did everything they could to undermine democracy and the will of the voters. However it was abundantly clear before the election that Walker's deal with Foxconn was all but dead regardless of how the election were to go; now that we see that reality coming to bear they are quick to lay blame at the feet of the opposition that has had no opportunity yet to do anything about it.
It's no surprise that the conservative voice here on drudgedot couldn't pass on including the GOP opinion on the matter.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
They are instead going to open a clean coal plant.
I live in Wisconsin, and I voted to elect Governor Evers (and against Trump). The Foxconn deal was a huge mistake. As others have noted, the state investment doesn't justify the jobs created. Unfortunately, it's probably too late to renege on it, even though the governor is probably tempted to (the legislature is still Republican-controlled, but apparently he could do it by pulling environmental permits). There have already been massive infrastructure investments and the use of eminent domain to obtain properties. I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago is essentially being completely rebuilt right now (it's a pain, too, because we deal with much heavier traffic whenever I go to Chicago or to visit my family in Ohio.
On a more human note, my brother-in-law just got hired by them as an engineer (and yes, he's from Wisconsin, not Taiwan or the PRC) He is spending the next several months (at least until May, and this started around Jan. 1) working in Taiwan. They've hired a ton of professional staff. I'm in a graduate program at a Milwaukee university in computer science and they have been recruiting there. I don't know about manufacturing workers, but if this deal blows up, there's going to be a lot of people who are ALREADY working there who are going to get the shaft.
This deal may have a silver lining, however, because many people would like to see Milwaukee connected to Chicago to have SE Wisconsin essentially become part of Chicagoland. The economic benefits of that could be big. Increased rail service linking the two cities could be a byproduct of this project, which would potentially allow more Milwaukee residents to work in Chicago (and vice versa). We were going to get that with the last democratic governor but Walker pulled out of the deal because trains are for communists. If other companies came to the same region (which is a great location, because you are about 1 hour from OHare and a huge intermodal facility) it could end up being a positive. I'm not optimistic about that because I distrust everyone who was involved in the original deal.
Could also tighten down the screws on companies exploiting these production chains to the point they consider leaving.
We know trickle down economics don't work so why is latching in and protecting these groups so engrained? Let them leave if higher tax rates are really so damning to them. If the tax rates aren't so damning, they'll stay, and the revenue can subsidize workers.
Some Wisconsin Republicans blamed the company's change in plans on the election of Gov. Tony Evers, a Democrat, to succeed Mr. Walker, a Republican, in November. In a joint statement, Assembly Speaker Robin Vos and the Senate majority leader, Scott Fitzgerald, said it was "not surprising Foxconn would rethink building a manufacturing plant in Wisconsin under the Evers administration." The lawmakers added: "The company is reacting to the wave of economic uncertainty that the new governor has brought with his administration."
Translation A: There is going to be actual oversight for this sweetheart deal for Foxconn (unlike before) and Foxconn management is worried about that
Translation B: Certain republicans that negotiated this bad deal are worried about the bribes they took becoming public knowledge
Translation C: Circumstances that have nothing to do with the current Wisconsin governor are being used as a political point scoring opportunity
Pick the translation that works for you. Probably some truth in all of them.
Where's the value for Foxconn to use American workers?
There are numerous benefits. In no particular order:
1) Products made in the US for sale in the US do not have to worry about exchange rate fluctuations or import tariffs
2) Reduced freight costs and production lead times to the US market
3) Production flexibility - gives Foxconn the ability to produce products in the most sensible market for a given product
4) US worker productivity is among the highest in the world (it's how we compete)
5) US manufacturing workers are among the best in the world (the US has a $3 Trillion/year manufacturing sector)
6) Automation will necessarily be used extensively to offset labor costs
7) It gets Foxconn and companies that use them (Apple, etc) political points and the ability to lobby state and federal governments
8) For products with relatively low labor content US workers make tremendous sense, especially for products that are sold in the US.
Your question would apply equally to Honda or BMW or Siemens or any other large manufacturing concern. They make a products in the US because it makes economic sense to do so. Not every product of course but some will benefit.
They're expensive. Wisconsin is a union state too.
There is no such thing as a "union state". There are companies that have unions in Wisconsin but there are plenty more that do not. Just because a company sets up shop in Wisconsin does not mean a union will be able to organize that company.
Which means that Foxconn will have union labor issues just building the factory and keeping it running will just be a nightmare.
I'm sure there will be unions interested in organizing the plant just like every other large manufacturing concern. Unions mostly have been losing these organizing efforts in recent years so I doubt Foxconn is overly worried. There are things that worry Foxconn about such a big project but unions are pretty far down the list these days.
As for skills, Wisconsin the state has no fiscal responsibility, it has not fiscal stability, it has an almost 3rd world infrastructure.
Feeling hyperbolic today are we? Pretty much none of that is true. The rest of your post is just similar provocative nonsense.
Unless we somehow managed to change our voting system to use Ranked Choice Voting. It worked in Maine a few months ago. Granted, I'm more likely to see pigs fly, unless the Dems get really scared about another 3rd party candidate screwing things up for 2020.
I believe the real fear of NK is that these nuclear developments will be exported either purposefully or "accidentally" to radical groups.
Not that NK will launch a first strike itself, but will provide the means for other groups to initiate global carnage.
This is almost as bad as the professional ball stadiums. You know where the local tax payers PAY for a billionaires football/baseball stadium because *sniff* *sniff* the ball team isn't making any money. My county is BORROWING money to "pay back" the Braves. In the meantime, my local gov is making cuts and raising taxes because of the welfare for billionaires.
My fucking local government got ripped off royally by the fucking Braves (John C. Malone owner via Liberty Media).
Don't let any fucking conservative kid to you, the super rich don't pay enough taxes and they get PLENTY of welfare.
First off, GP is right. This wasn't Tom Walker driving up a truck with a pallet of $4 billion dollars to give to Foxconn the day they broke ground like every story on earth says it is. It was tax breaks for a supposed huge plant that if it existed as planned, would have equaled $4 billion dollars in tax revenue over 15 years. Also keep in mind that this was basically farmland. and it was generating little to no Tax Revenue as it was.
Second, They had to meet certain hiring criteria each year in order to qualify for the subsides in a year by year basis. They already didn't make the 2018 criteria, so they lost some of the money already. Since they are most likely not going to hit the planned targets, The tax breaks are basically null and void.
The most it cost Wisconsin so far is the initial tax breaks, infrastructure upgrades and the land that they leased to Foxconn, which is nowhere near $1 Billion right now let alone $4 Billion. If Foxconn bails, the infrastructure and land is sill owned by the state and can be used to entice other companies to build there.
I believe the real fear of NK is that these nuclear developments will be exported either purposefully or "accidentally" to radical groups.
Not that NK will launch a first strike itself, but will provide the means for other groups to initiate global carnage.
I doubt that very much, why would they? What would they gain exactly? The risk of being found out would severely outweigh any "benefits" from doing so. If they were found out then NK would be turned into ash.
Pakistan is more at risk of doing something like that as it has deep ties to radical groups who would love to let off a bomb in India or the US.
What needs to happen is all the old fuckers that have sold their soul to take as much as they can from us to their grave need to be held accountable, no matter what "side" their on.
We need to do this for our children.
Foxconn Is Reconsidering Plan For Wisconsin Factory
Not to fall on a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, but c'mon, anyone with half a brain knew this deal was crap. Only gullible yokels would fall for this mendacious nincompoopery (who keep voting against their own interests in favor for oilsnake peddlers who sell them this shit.) OMG ME BUBBAH GUNNA GIT MAH JAWB, WINNING LUK HER UP! (But you know who actually had actual economic plans for Flyover Country? HR-fucking-C, but whatever, reap what you sow.)
LOW. VALUE. ADDED. MANUFACTURING. AIN'T. GONNA. FUCKING. COME. BACK. EVER.
A sucker is made every minute. I can sympathize with an illiterate peasant in a 3rd world country not having the means to discern the fallacious nature of such promises.
But people in the richest nation the world had ever seen, with public education available for free all the way to HS, and in the 21st century, with access to the damned Internet. Nah, you fall for this shit, you are systemically on par with the Dodos in "Ice Age."
Except that a decrease in Apple current sales doesn't affect Foxconn in the present. Foxconn already assembled and delivered the units and got paid for that work that Apple wanted. Apple cutting future production affects Foxconn. If one of their customers not doing well affects Foxconn so that they can't build a plant to manufacture products that customer doesn't buy anyway, I'd say that is more indicative of bad management at Foxconn.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
As a German friend of mine once said about why he moved to the US. In Europe there is a left, a far left, and an even further left.
NK would never launch a nuclear weapon
We can't assume people in general - and especially self-aggrandizing authoritarians with delusions (or a facade) of supernatural providence - will behave rationally all the time. Nukes just have too much of a potential downside.
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
Oh, third-party candidates get elected in Wisconsin. They're the Greens and they are crazier than the other two parties. They're mostly elected by young idealists university students at UW-Madison.
When this deal was originally discussed on /., there were many ignorant people pushing this incorrect narrative then. I see that you did not learn the truth at that time.
If I gross 100K dollars, and pay 30 percent of that in taxes, I have how much.
If I gross 100K dollars, and pay nothing, I have how much?
If I gross 100K dollars, and am paid money because reasons, I have 100K dollars plus what that payment to me is.
The funny money folks always make up schemes and cute designations. It's how money can be hidden.
Anyhow, "Although the state measures to attract Foxconn are labeled tax incentives, they largely would be paid in cash since the effective Wisconsin state tax rate is 0.4% on manufacturers."
and
"The incentives include up to $1.5 billion in state income tax credits for job creation and up to $1.35 billion in state income tax credits for capital investment. Foxconn is eligible for additional local incentives.
"The company is eligible for refundable tax credits equal to 17% of wages paidinstead of the typical 7% and 15% of capital costs instead of 10%." sauce: http://fortune.com/2017/07/31/...
So while you can strut around like I have no idea what I'm talking about, we have payments that are called tax incentives, and up to 3 billion of these tax incentives or what us great unwashed call.... ahem...payments. Who can tell for certain? All the interim steps and misleading names are just accounting tricks.
There is something I call Realekonimik, similar to realpolitik. One might call it "cash in pocket after all of the bullshit." Realekonomik calls these massive incentives to be taxpayer subsidies to a non-US company. It's like paying a woman to date you. She makes money, and you end up poorer and looking like a fool. And as soon as you stop paying her, she'll dump you and find some other willing dope.
This is a bum deal, pretty plain.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
"No one knew that 'muricans don't work as long hours or as cheaply as Chinese workers... so sad!"
"no one knew that very few TVs or computer monitors are made in America"
"no one knew it could get so damned cold in Wisconsin in the winter"
"no one knew that Foxconn laid off 10k workers in an LCD plant in Taiwan at about the same time they were announcing the deal in Wisconsin to employ 13k people building LCDs."
Walker got fox-conned, and the taxpayers got screwed. In the last election, in which Walker was running for reelection, Foxconn was rarely mentioned in campaign speeches. I wonder what he knew...
I wonder if my property tax (I live 2 miles from the Foxconn facility) will go back down to prefoxconn levels...
NK would never launch a nuclear weapon unless it was first attacked by the South and/or the US.
Oh dear, no, of course not. Peace loving good folks there.
"If it is a refundable tax credit then whoever negotiated that deal from the government side is almost criminally negligent"
Or they were anticipating kickbacks from foxconn, in which case they're even more of a criminal. There's enough money involved that this becomes highly plausible.
The entire case makes no sense unless there is a substantial amount of money going from FoxConn to "someone" in some fashion.
Direct payments called "tax credits" is sort of a big red flag issue. There's a reason this whole deal is being scrutinized so hard. It doesn't pass the smell test. Not even remotely. As deals go, this one is pretty artless.
Not terribly surprising that after a change in party at the Governors level, FoxConn is pulling away.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Trump's tariffs don't help. That factory needs to be supplied from China.
Oh, I'm pretty certain that the right baksheesh greasing the right palm will alleviate that little problem.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Doubtful. If the weapon traced back to North Korea, then it would be treated as a first strike by North Korea. And it's not feasible to export a nuclear weapon without someone else detecting it.
Kim wants nukes to keep himself alive. Exporting nukes does not accomplish this goal. Nor does shutting down his nuclear weapons facilities.
Proportional representation in results should be the goal. If it's a purple state then the candidates should be purple. It doesn't matter if a D or R is elected, they should be representing the interests of the voters who went the other way in proportion.
The US Military is 10 times the size it needs to be because at its core it is a jobs program. It keeps millions of high school graduates employed, teaches them job skills. It also funds thousands of researchers both in Univerisites and Private arms firms. Without all this welfare many firms, Universities would go bankrupt and street gangs would get much worse. The military is the most communist thing we have.
**Life is too short to be serious**
"They only issue now is how much of the credits are dependent on performance by Foxconn."
If they actually mean what they are saying that isn't a problem. They are talking about white collar (as in lab coat) jobs instead of manufacturing jobs. This makes sense for Foxconn which needs a lot of R&D. Those staff will have better than the $55k/yr avg salary originally estimated and actually would be an upgrade for Wisconsin.
Granted that depends on follow through from Foxconn but there is a big carrot being offered by Wisconsin and this seems like a great way for them to make the most of it.
$230k in potential subsidies per worker, new tariffs on Chinese imports and a company that needs plenty of R&D.
With this announcement Foxconn states they want to go from a plan to employ 1000 blue collar workers to a plan to utilize the plant for R&D. Much higher paid and higher education employees. This would let Foxconn make the most of the subsidy, avoid the tariff issues, and make a big push to a higher class of worker in Wisconsin.
Yes, you could argue that anything Foxconn says should be treated with a heavy grain of salt at this point but consider for a moment that maybe Foxconn doesn't want to either rob the state of Wisconsin or engage in a bad business decision. This would be the direction they'd have to start going down. It really would be a win all around.
Now to part B, making sure it is actually natural born Americans staffing the place. Preferably Wisconsonians. Although Wisconsin's mostly white demographic will make you cringe Ami so I know you'll oppose that and force a racist demand they import people to avoid an uneven diversity profile.
"At the very least, the president talked us out of a nuclear war."
Oh boy, the bullshit is deep with this one isn't it? Perhaps you meant to say:
"At the very least, the president nearly talked us into a nuclear war."
Oh, you don't remember the "fire and fury" raving? Selective memories are common among the MAGA crowd. Trump is 0 for 2 on nuclear deals and he's never going to sign one. He isn't capable.
Also, corporate welfare is a bad idea, at all times and in all places. This Foxconn/Wisconsin deal reeked of corporate welfare right from the get-go.
That's a chicken an egg problem. If you build it, they will come.
It is too expensive to source locally, that is the reason for the subsidy. It isn't as if there aren't plenty of raw resources in the US that could be refined. Those industries have just diminished and stagnated. The idea here was to increase pressure to develop them again. The end result being the same supply chain but in the US instead of Asia.
This is why she lost. She told a bunch of 40 something blue collar guys to go back to college for advanced degrees. The amount of cluelessness on display there is astonishing.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"The company is reacting to the wave of economic uncertainty that the new governor has brought with his administration."
That's a funny way of saying "will of the people", as in the citizens didn't like what the Republican governor was doing, so they replaced him.
And thus in the US we have idiots, more idiots, and now even more idiots.
It's no surprise that the conservative voice here on drudgedot couldn't pass on including the GOP opinion on the matter.
This is how I know you wandered in to the wrong area of the Internet my friend.
Many of the people here are conservative with a SMALL c). There are a few Conservatives, and many times, the conservative people here find that the Conservative agenda fits their narrative, but conservatives here are not Conservatives.
Very few of the folks here are group oriented; therefore, there are very few followers here.
You, and several others, are extremely left leaning, which is not a problem at all here, but you are mindlessly left leaning... and that IS a problem.
Slashdot is still alive because of this group of non-groupers. Independent thought is highly valued and people like yourself refuse to independently think about certain ideas and subjects.
I am not trying to kick you off of Slashdot. That is not how the folks gathered at Slashdot work. Anyone is welcome as long they engage honestly. Your mindless toeing of the party line... presents an interesting situation, but nobody will kick you out for it. You do believe that by submitting your will to the Democratic platform that you will make the world a better place. I personally disagree, it is not that simple, but meh.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
You, and several others, are extremely left leaning, which is not a problem at all here, but you are mindlessly left leaning... and that IS a problem.
That's a really significant assumption that you just made based on a single comment. It appears that you got there based solely on the fact that I wrote something you disagree with - and yet you are claiming that I am "mindless" and that I "refuse to independently think".
Anyone is welcome as long they engage honestly
I haven't seen you show any honest attempt to engage this topic with me. You went pretty quickly to lobbing insults at me rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. We could take a couple steps back here and talk about how the Foxconn project was already falling apart well before election day, how the projected cost to the state went up repeatedly, how the projected number of jobs from it went down with each revision from Foxconn before election day, etc. Or you can keep insulting me if you so choose. The latter path does nothing towards you trying to claim a willingness to "engage honestly" - or is that just not required when you are in a discussion with someone who you disagree with?
but conservatives here are not Conservatives.
You can split that hair however you like, but the fact of the matter is that the editorial voice here at slashdot - as indicated by the choice of front page political stories and the summaries that go with them - is indisputably right-wing. And if we look at how comments get moderated here - which reflects the population of people who read and post enough here to earn moderation points - we see the same. Nobody was allowed to blame anything on Trump in the first month after his inauguration, and yet here we see an article that is blaming something on Wisconsin governor Tony Evers less than a month after his inauguration. The only difference is the letter after their name.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Yep, Maine just got ranked choice voting. And Fargo, North Dakota just got approval voting, which I think is an even better voting system as far as giving third party and independent candidates a chance.
It will take a long time before we see either one on a national scale, but maybe within 20 to 30 years. Once it starts getting passed by more states, just like women's right to vote and marijuana, it will eventually become the law everywhere.
You're correct that both parties will fight ranked choice. But Maine voters showed it's possible to over-ride the current politicians with the power of electorate. If more people in other states do the same thing we can have a real effect on this country. Electorate based initiatives have real power to change things.
The Utah electorate, against the wishes of the dominant faith's leaders. this November just voted a medical cannabis law into effect after the legislature reneged on a deal to create a legal medical cannabis market. This was a very powerful act by the electorate in overriding both the legislature and dominant religion (which a majority of the electorate is a member of) in one swoop. Don't underestimate the power of voter driven initiatives.
It would be really nice if Republicans would worry less about democrats and more about doing their bloody jobs. They literally worry more about sticking it to the Democrats than actually helping their constituents.
Oh no! Foxconn might bail! It MUST be the Democrats! It couldn't POSSIBLY be that Foxconn is dicking them around hoping to get a sweeter deal.
The mindset of Americans towards politics has been poisoned by the two party system. Your system ensures that there are always only two sides to any discussion, and it always results in an us or them mentality because quite literally there is only the choice of someone voting for the party you yourself vote for, or the opposing party, to the vast majority of people. The divisiveness is shocking to anyone from outside the US with an actual democracy. Having more than two viable parties means that ideas can be more important than parties. There are always more than two sides to an issue and multiple parties allows for these ideas to be represented and debated openly. It also helps to foster an educated population who are capable of deciding for themselves where they stand on specific issues rather than their party line more than a simple dichotomy. Your "partisan dumbshits" are a consequence of your two party system and I cannot see anything improving until you update your electoral institutions and methods to stop recognizing only the two major parties. I also can't see either of the major parties spearheading it because they see it as an erosion of their power, but your country needs this!
I wish I had a lawn.
Considering that most German elections are won by center-right parties, that implies some scary stuff about you and your friends.
Your assumption that NK and it's leaders are rational actors could be misplaced.
MAD only works if both sides act rationally.
He's yet to provide any evidence he is not rational when it comes to his personal survival.
Oh! You're gonna play the "Technically" card? OK. I play "Well ACKSHUALLY"
Well actually, the other poster is more correct. You said "manufacturing hub in the southern United States when Detroit, MI was the firmly entrenched existing industry hub." Which southern CITY is the analogue of Detroit? You quoted a bunch of facts twice but evidently didn't read any of it. There is no southern industry hub.
What you techncially have is a REGIONAL HUB, if you can even call it a hub. You like to be technical, correct?
Except for the Nissan factory, you will not find a factory job in my shitty TN town that pays more than about $13/hr unless you're a maintenance tech which is usually filled by 2 year tech school guys. They get about $20. If I want to make anything approaching your numbers, I have to work in Nashville, maybe, or I can get a non-factory job with TVA or one of the military bases. Those usually require some kind of tech cert at a minimum.
You're out of touch with the real working people of America and don't know as much as you think you do. You're also conservative so you don't fucking care.
At this point the only way we'll get a credible third party is if there's sufficient schism within one of the major parties that it splits in two
I'm digressing a bit from the original topic, but an interesting side note here is that US history has shown that when one of its two major political parties has a split, things quickly re-form into two parties again with the members and platforms having shuffled. Here's how it generally goes:
Party A opposes the widget tax.
Party B supports the widget tax.
Party B has intense internal disagreement on how the funds from the widget tax should be appropriated.
Enough people within party B disagree so strongly that they break off and form party C before the next election.
Result:
Party C doesn't get enough votes to disrupt either party B or party A. Their members begin to desert back to party B or realign as party A because of their differences. Party C either becomes too small to matter or disappears.
- OR -
Party C becomes bigger than party B. Party B experiences defections to party A because of disagreements with party C and defections to party C to keep party A from gaining too much power. Party B either becomes too small to matter or disappears.
Occasionally there are a few elections in a row where there are more than two major parties with political power, but it's so rare in US history. The "us vs them" political mentality is so deeply entrenched in the collective psyche of the US that a situation with more than two major parties is inherently unstable.
At the very least, the president talked us out of a nuclear war.
Oh please, stop with your fake news bullshit. North Korea wasn't going to start a nuclear war- they KNOW that the response would be to turn their entire country into a radioactive parking lot for 4-wheel drive vehicles.
Yeah...Trump the 'great negotiator'. Please shut the fuck up with that nonsense. President Temper Tantrum couldn't negotiate his way out of a phone booth with a map and a squad of Army Rangers to lead the way.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Many of the people here are conservative with a SMALL c). There are a few Conservatives, and many times, the conservative people here find that the Conservative agenda fits their narrative, but conservatives here are not Conservatives.
#notrueconservative #notruescotsman
Very few of the folks here are group oriented; therefore, there are very few followers here.
You must be new here.
Slashdot is still alive because of this group of non-groupers.
Just don't imagine that they're anything but a subset, like anywhere else. Maybe it's a bigger percentage here, but there's plenty of mindless repetition of conservacuck talking points here on Slashbot.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Except that a decrease in Apple current sales doesn't affect Foxconn in the present.
Your argument hinges on the idea that Foxconn can't do financial forecasting. That means it's a bad argument.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
No my argument is that if Apple is doing terrible right now in phones and that severely affects Foxconn in parts of their business that has nothing to do with Apple (displays), maybe Foxconn is terribly managed.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
No my argument is that if Apple is doing terrible right now in phones and that severely affects Foxconn in parts of their business that has nothing to do with Apple (displays), maybe Foxconn is terribly managed.
Apple is one of their largest customers. It would not be surprising if a major reduction in Apple's business led to a substantial reduction in Foxconn's.
I personally think it's only one reason of several, but it does seem reasonable that it's contributory.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Oh common man, why do you hate capitalism? Its the best system there is. You sound like dirty commie bastard, i mean stinking red indian. Stop undermining the core values of society. Shame on you, man.
ahahaha... people are so fucking dumb and easily manipulated. Just change a name here, add additional adjective there and VOILA! A new 'financial product' is born or a new 'hope' to cleanse the corrupted swamp emerges, or ... Its fun doing bussiness with dumb sheep.
Is Apple their largest customer? Foxconn manufactures for practically every major player in the industry. Apple is their most visible customer. And Foxconn might be Apple's largest manufacturer.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Oh common man, why do you hate capitalism? Its the best system there is. You sound like dirty commie bastard, i mean stinking red indian. Stop undermining the core values of society. Shame on you, man.
Ultra sarcasm noted. Isn't it strange though how people who would fling around the "Socialist" pejoritive like the ultimate spice of life, would use taxpayer money to hand to a company like FoxConn.
ahahaha... people are so fucking dumb and easily manipulated. Just change a name here, add additional adjective there and VOILA! A new 'financial product' is born or a new 'hope' to cleanse the corrupted swamp emerges, or ... Its fun doing bussiness with dumb sheep.
sigh.... sadly enough, there are too many people who have become so manipulable, so easily swayed, so inculcated with mindless adherence to what someone tells them, that you can get them to think implementing a socialistic move like this is Laissez-faire capitalism.
Me? I'd tell FoxConn and their suicide nets to get the fuck out of my state, and imprint a size 12 bootprint on their asses on the way out.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Is Apple their largest customer? Foxconn manufactures for practically every major player in the industry. Apple is their most visible customer.
Well, I don't know for sure (I didn't look at financials) but Android Authority claims so.
And Foxconn might be Apple's largest manufacturer.
Same disclaimer as above, but CNBC says so.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Wisconsin could probably make up for the loss by legalizing pot, maybe even do better.
It would seem that if Foxconn's business is so tied to Apple maybe they should diversify. Building a display plant that doesn't rely on Apple would seem to be a good strategic move.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It would seem that if Foxconn's business is so tied to Apple maybe they should diversify. Building a display plant that doesn't rely on Apple would seem to be a good strategic move.
If Apple cuts back production, then they can build stuff in their existing plants, where they will have excess capacity. If they don't, then they don't need to. You can be sure that Foxconn is always trying to get different customers, whether their business with Apple produces more, less, or the same amount of business as last year.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"