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Amazon To NYC After Reconsidering HQ2 Plans: It'd Be a Shame If Something Happened To Your Kids' CS Education
theodp writes: Commenting on reports that Amazon is reconsidering its plan to bring 25,000 jobs to a new campus in New York City following a wave of political and community opposition, Amazon issued the following statement: "We're focused on engaging with our new neighbors -- small business owners, educators, and community leaders. Whether it's building a pipeline of local jobs through workforce training or funding computer science classes for thousands of New York City students, we are working hard to demonstrate what kind of neighbor we will be." Yep, it'd be a shame if something happened. The Washington Post earlier reported that New York State Sen. Michael Gianaris, a strong opponent of the Amazon HQ2 deal, described the possibility that Amazon would pull out of the deal -- which totals up to $3 billion in state and city incentives -- as akin to blackmail. "Amazon has extorted New York from the start, and this seems to be their next effort to do just that," he said. "If their view is, 'We won't come unless we get three billion of your dollars,' then they shouldn't come." Over at Vice, Ankita Rao examines what Amazon infiltrating America's school system might look like.
I'm not exactly a fan of Amazon, but it's rational for them to dedicate resources to the communities where they will have a significant presence. If they don't go to New York, and go somewhere else instead, then resources they were going to spend on the community in New York will instead go somewhere else.
It's critical that resist efforts of companies like Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon who want to exploit public education for profit. Amazon doesn't want to help students, they want to make money and getting their hooks into lucrative contracts with schools is a core part of that.
We've already seen Bill Gates make repeated attempts to ruin education for profit, Zuckerberg is attempting to enter that market, and now Bezos wants to do the same.
Education only works if teachers can teach instead of being bound to reciting material designed by non-educators working for billion-dollar companies that are designed to encourage dependency on their services and work advertising into lessons. Kids don't need that, and we must reject it.
Kids don't need Amazon to learn computer science. Just like my dad got a Timex Sinclair to teach me, if a parent these days want their kids to learn then they can get a raspberry pi.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
also it's normal for big corporations to seek incentives from state
It's normal. That doesn't mean it's good.
, in the long run the state and population gets many times the return
No, in general not. The "long run" result is that once one company discovers that they can avoid taxes by pitting one locality against another in a bidding war, then all companies start to do that, and essentially what happens is that municipalities stop getting revenue from taxes. So they have to tax their residents instead.
Everybody loses.
"Amazon has extorted New York from the start, and this seems to be their next effort to do just that," he said. "If their view is, 'We won't come unless we get three billion of your dollars,' then they shouldn't come."
This is just stupid. A deal involves two parties. New York politicians want the state to back out of their half of the deal, but this guy thinks that they should be able to hold Amazon to their half.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Amazon HQ2: Texas experience shows why New Yorkers should be skeptical ( https://theconversation.com/am... )
Yeah, like what General Motors did in Australia.
"Yeah, we need all this funding and financial support to keep car manufacturing here for the next decade. Think of the jobs!"
a year or two later
"We're shutting down all manufacturing in Australia, no you can't have your money back"
And this my friends is exactly why I am not a big fan of the argument that we should keep taxes low and rely on charities to pay for stuff.
Once the money is given by companies, or billionaire, their donations become concerns for any negotiations. Tax them and where the money is spent is no longer their decision but the public's decision.
Their projections show that they will recoup the cost. Past experience shows these projections are usually wildly optimistic.
Tax incentives and subsidies are a Prisoner's Dilemma. Each locale feels obligated to offer incentives because other locales are offering them. But they would be collectively better off if no one offered them. Amazon would still expand, but do so on the basis of business efficiency rather than subsidies. If NYC wants to attract more businesses, they should improve their overall friendliness to commerce, rather than lavishing subsidies on one corporation.
These subsides are a race to the bottom. This is what the Commerce Clause in the US Constitution was designed to prevent. The CC has often been abused, but a federal ban on these subsidies would be a legitimate use, and would be an overall benefit to the country's economy, and a relief to the taxpayers.
You can't lure a kid into programming by thinking that way. A kid can be both, I was, but in the end their interest in programming and/or gaming will be mutually exclusive. I know a kid who is gaming motivated. He likes to hack his nintendo with 3D models and at one point required a Python script. Since he's not interested in programming, he only gains a superficial knowledge of how to install Python on windows and where to put the script and run it. Only if he is interested in development would he attempt to delve into what the script does and entertain the taught of modifying it.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Unlikely, Amazon is a parasite. Anything that they get as an incentive to move there is going to be a lot less than what they contribute to the local area.
They've done a pretty thorough job of destroying Seattle and yet those folks in other parts of the country were willing to compete for the same treatment. If Amazon being here was such a great thing, Bezos wouldn't be constantly looking over his shoulder when he's out in public.
Once they are there, you can count on them extorting the locality for whatever they can. We had a head tax briefly slated to go into effect here in Seattle to help counteract the damage that Amazon's presence was doing and they had some illegal meetings with the council and had it nixed. No public meetings, just backroom negotiations and ultimately, the citizens lost. We've got people who are homeless despite having full time jobs here and it's primarily due to Amazon's influence.
Saying that tax breaks are not a direct subsidy is a flat out lie. It this circumstance it's a bribe and for Amazon it's a "head I win tails you loose" proposition. It's just like building sport stadiums: a scam to loot the public treasury for private profit. (Just ask St. Louis or San Diego about the Rams and Chargers moving to LA.)
If you don't think that tax breaks are a subsidy then why not tax religion? Just suggest it. I dare you. Tax breaks are money in the pocket. Besides being declared as an agent of the devil by "legitimate" religious figures some nut job will do a drive by and put a bullet into your house or perhaps toss a Molotov cocktail in your direction.
Everyone who profits from sucking off the public teat is the same: they think their free ride is a natural law of the universe and any other option is a perversion of the natural order. Libertarians are just another set of blood sucking scamsters.
Why is Snark Required?
I don't see any way for it to NOT work.
PT Barnum loved people like you.
How many $100-$150k software engineers in NYC are currently unemployed?
Most of these employees will just be shifted from other businesses, which aren't being subsidized, forcing them to either cut back or leave the city. There may be some net job growth, but it is unlikely it is going to be worth $3 billion.
Most tech companies in NYC are already desperate for talent. The limit on creating high paying jobs is not companies willing to hire them, but housing available for people to move to the city. Approving new building permits (cost: ~$0) would do WAY more to grow the NYC economy that this handout to Amazon.
But there is one thing you can be certain of: The politicians are going to label this as a "success" by highlighting every job at Amazon, while ignoring the equivalent number of jobs destroyed elsewhere in the city.
why not tax religion? Just suggest it. I dare you
Tax religion. Go for it. Treat them as exactly what they are: Profit generating businesses.
Better yet, regulate them. Prevent them from preying on vulnerable people and forbid them from self-policing. Maybe we can reduce the numbers of children abused.
I'd happily vote for this.