Elon Musk: Bitcoin Structure is Brilliant, But Has Its Cons; Paper Money is Going Away (ark-invest.com)

Elon Musk, who among other things, is a pioneer in the payments industry, has weighed in on one of the most divisive topics in finance today: Bitcoin. In a podcast with Cathie Wood of ARK Invest, Musk, the co-founder and chief executive of electric car maker Tesla, was asked to "go off topic" and offer up some thoughts on the most famous cryptocurrency. From a report: "I think the bitcoin structure is quite brilliant. But I'm not sure that it would be a good use of Tesla's resources to get involved in crypto," he told Wood. Musk, who founded PayPal, added that the days of paper money are numbered and digital currencies could offer a more efficient solution to shifting value. "Paper money is going away and crypto is a far better way to transfer value than pieces of paper, that's for sure, but it has its pros and cons," he said.

Comments

Physical money will never go away

[Larry Lightbulb]

If he means money made of paper, then he's probably right, but wrong otherwise. There's plenty of people who don't, won't, or can't have a credit card and more who wouldn't have a personal computing device to do their daily transactions with.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[fahrbot-bot]

If he means money made of paper, then he's probably right, but wrong otherwise.

Case in point, the Bank of England now uses polymer banknotes for their current £5 and £10 denominations and will use that for higher ones in 2020. Many other countries have done the same for their currencies. Polymer notes are (reportedly) cleaner and stronger (allowing them to last longer) and safer (can incorporate more security features).

Re:Physical money will never go away

[Shaitan]

No, it would be about making everyone account for all their money.

The problem is that the people who are hiding their money tend to be the poor. A handyman is a good example, these people don't make all that much money, what they do make is on a cash basis and they usually pay taxes on little or none of that money. This is what makes it possible for you to hire someone on craigslist who comes and installs an appliance for a reasonable rate. There isn't much tax to be gained here.

The people who are dodging significant amounts of tax that are worth pursuing are doing it legally. The biggest dodges are dodging income entirely. There are several ways to do that, real estate is a good one, just reinvest the proceeds or if you own a boatload of stock in a company only sell what you need and give a chunk to charity or to pay a debt to avoid paying tax on it. The stock you gave away counts as money spent but only stock you cash in and dividends count as income.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[b0s0z0ku]

No, but society can use the poor as an excuse to keep cash payments as an option, thus preserving privacy for everyone (including the less poor).

Re:Physical money will never go away

[Shaitan]

Troll lol. I guess there are few rich tech beasts with mod points.

If you want to see an example of how the dodge income scam the rich play works just refer to the taxes Warren Buffet helpfully revealed. I'll fudge the numbers because I'm too lazy to look, the concept and rough scale is right. His actual gains were billions but he only directly cashed out maybe 20 mill and dodged almost all the tax on that giving another chunk to charity. For the most part he is able to invest in new companies, make acquisitions, etc by using stock to do it. Hell, he could pay everyone down to his lawn service in stock for all I know and they'd be crazy not to take it as the stock has a good return and appreciates over time unlike cash which depreciates with inflation.

This is the loophole which needs closed, these are the tax dodgers we need to go after. Leave the handyman alone, if he does well his business will grow and he won't be able to hide his few thousand a year from the IRS anymore. For the most part small independent business people like the handyman turn out to have a sense of ethics and want to bring it above board as soon as they have enough going on for it to be worthwhile anyway. That is why the IRS doesn't expend many resources tilting at that windmill.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[Immerman]

No, mostly they're called people trapped in a bad situation created by the society they live in. Even assuming someone screwed up to create the problem in the first place, how are they supposed to go about putting their life right again when they can't even get paid for working? (How many decent employers do you know that will pay with cash instead of check?)

I do think that society should recognize that it *creates* such people, and work to fix the flaws that produce such people, and make sure that people born into such conditions through no fault of their own, find it easy to leave. "Tough love" only works when a person's problems are of their own creation, not when it's a systemic problem that might keep you trapped just as surely as it traps them, had you been unfortunate enough to be born or stumble into it.

If we want to encourage everyone to be productive members of society, we need to make it *at least* as easy for the poorest among us to be upwardly mobile as it is for most, not more difficult. But we live in a society that throws up a whole lot of barriers to that climb, some of them pretty substantial. I know people who would be financially devastated by earning a 10% raise - it would push them off the "welfare cliff", and not be nearly enough for them to reach to other side. It is to our shame as a society that we allow such traps to exist.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[Solandri]

For those who haven't seen (felt) polymer banknotes (i.e. Americans), they're like Tyvek sheeting used to wrap houses and also for certain large USPS envelopes (visit the post office). Very strong, durable, and tear resistant.

U.S. currency has to go through certain, brutal tests before it's approved. One of these tests is to roll it into a tight cylinder inside a metal tube, then a piston travels down the tube to smash the paper cylinder down length-wise. This test is repeated multiple times. Any new bill or security feature has to survive this process before the U.S. will adopt it. This is why U.S. bills don't have large holograms like bills from some other countries - this rolling/crushing test destroys them. This is probably also why we haven't adopted polymer notes yet. The polymer notes are resistant to folding, and this test is pretty much the ultimate force-fold test. It probably weakens if not tears some of the plastic fibers substantially, whereas the more pliable plant fibers in paper bills can survive it.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[thegarbz]

England? Now? Australia introduced those as a complete set for general circulation 27 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Holy shit I'm getting old. I remember that.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[Local ID10T]

Why would anyone give away 2% of the profits to a payment processor?

Because I make significantly more sales by accepting cards than I would if I only accepted cash.

The convenience factor of paying by card encourages people to spend more than they would otherwise. Often customers come in, pick out an item, see more items that are of interest, ask if I accept cards, and then buy several items.

Some people carry cash. Some carry only a card. Some carry only a phone. Most can pay multiple ways. As a merchant it is part of my job to make it convenient for customers to pay me.

Re:Physical money will never go away

[Enigma2175]

An even better example is Donald Trump. In 1995, he claimed a loss of $916 million on his personal tax return. But he didn't lose a billion dollars. His company didn't even lose a billion dollars. The banks that lent him the money that he lost on his horrible property deals were the ones that realized the loss. From TFA:

Investors, for example, can walk away from a property and record the investment as a loss — even if they were playing with borrowed money. While a profit from that same property would be treated as a capital gain, losses are treated as “operating losses” under a tax code provision that dates back to the Great Depression. Those losses can be deployed far more flexibly than capital losses to shield other income from taxation.

“He was forced to sell many of his investments in the early 1990s, at pennies on the dollar, teetering on bankruptcy,” Edward Kleinbard, a tax expert at the University of Southern California, said of Mr. Trump. “There were real economic losses from those investments — borne entirely by the lenders. Yet nonetheless he was able to emerge with a large net operating loss to carry forward, attributable primarily to losing other people’s money.”

Not to mention the fact that any money that he acquired previous to that (mostly from his father) wasn't taxed either, partially by exploiting the current laws and in some cases just flaunting them to dodge taxes. Things like vastly understating the value of property that his father was transferring to Donald in order to avoid gift taxes, setting up sham corporations to funnel money to Donald and his siblings and getting paid large sums of money for "property management" services when Donald was just 3 years old. Some of the techniques were legal, some were of questionable legality and some were blatantly illegal. But rich people have armies of lawyers to besiege the IRS when anything is questioned so they rarely are held accountable even for the small fraction of tax frauds that are discovered.

And the whole reason that some of these tax schemes are legal is because the government is owned by the rich and powerful, they basically shape any tax legislation to their ends. Rich people have obscure methods for shielding their income from taxes because they wrote the laws that created those methods. It takes a hell of a lot of landscapers under reporting their income to equal the taxes dodged by one billionaire.

Expert in something != Expert in the other thing

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Normally that is how I would respond. But in this case there are some mitigating circumstances. Elon was involved with Paypal, some sort of payment tracking system. And it is mentioned to be off-topic. So I am going to be a little forgiving here.

Paper money is not going away

[sjbe]

I think the bitcoin structure is quite brilliant.

The blockchain technology might be brilliant. Bitcoin very definitely is not. We shouldn't confuse the two. The jury is still out on blockchain but I think the more interesting uses of it won't be for currency. Bitcoin is an interesting but ultimately flawed experiment which might also be a pyramid scheme either intentionally or unintentionally.

Paper money is going away and crypto is a far better way to transfer value than pieces of paper, that's for sure, but it has its pros and cons

This is just idiotic. Paper money isn't going away any time soon and neither is fiat currency. Maybe in the far future but even then I doubt it. There is simply too much utility in paper money for a lot of transactions. Asking everyone to either carry an expensive computer with them or carry some means to interact securely with one in order to facilitate even the most basic transaction is unrealistic. Not everyone can get a credit card or afford a smartphone and even if they could it still wouldn't be practical some of the time.

If he actually thinks the dollar is trading bits of paper he has no idea what money actually is. (I doubt he's that naive) The vast majority of currency is nothing more than digits in a ledger somewhere. Paper currency is a tiny fraction of the total amount of money in circulation. Somewhere less than 10% of the total.

You can have my paper money

[bobstreo]

when you pry it out of my cold dead mattress. /s

Especially when I can get a discount for using cash instead of the seller having to pay a transaction fee if a credit card or some other method of payment is used.

Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin

[Thelasko]

He has two bachelor's degrees. One in economics and one in physics. His experience with PayPal aside, Bitcoin is firmly within his areas of expertise.

Re:Forgets digital money relies...

[Comrade Ogilvy]

We are already past ten toes over that line. When there is a power outage most businesses shut down, because they cannot process credit cards. Many cannot even process cash.

Obviously much of this is still solvable with cash around. Supposedly.

Of course, this larger ominous question is why the banks were bailed out with the 2008 meltdown. Because if all the big banks were suddenly forced to file for bankruptcy, would the credit cards still work? Could you get gas and get to work? Can that gas station actually get gasoline delivered? Can your grocery store get restocked?

Once a business, say, a gasoline distributor, goes into bankruptcy, they cannot suddenly create a novel procedure to extend credit to the corner station without approval from a judge.

Wide swings in value is not a "con"

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Wide swings in value is not a "con" - it's a non-starter for the general public. Ask the Weimar or anyone unfortunate enough to live in Venezuela.

Those folks are already getting debit cards

[rsilvergun]

shoved down their gullets. I know a few guys with fucked up finances and crap jobs. They don't get checks, they get money on a debit card every week or two.

It's sucks of course. There's fees and it's a major pain to use. But here's the rub: nobody really cares about these people. I mean, the current administration just rolled back a ton of consumer protection and anti-payday loan rules and nobody batted an eye. I only know about it because the crazy left wing sites I like complained about it (the kind that run articles on "The high cost of being poor".

TL;DR; If you're well enough off that you matter you're already getting away from cash because going to understaffed banks and waiting in line is a drag. If you're poor enough to depend on cash you're gonna get dragged into the cashless economy and taken advantage of by it, but nobody care.

Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards

[Anonymous Coward]

"Crazy left wing sites". The irony of it is that those sites would be moderate, fence sitters in any other country.

It isn't hard to wind up in that category. A former co-worker closed a bank account. A year later, some place hit the account with an ACH debit, and then the bank placed the co-worker on the Chex Systems blacklist. Even though the account was closed, that $25 for some yearly thing became $250 with all the fees the bank assessed. No word was sent to the co-worker by mail. He found out about it when his savings account was closed by the current bank.

The current US system has no protection for anyone but businesses. It is like the early 1900s, all over again, with hucksters and snake oil sellers everywhere, no laws to protect consumers, and step out of line, and the Pinkertons will end you. Only difference is that we have a recession-proof economy that only goes up and a stock market which is crashproof, so most people really don't care about this stuff.

Re:Forgets digital money relies...

[Immerman]

That's a good reason for keeping the banks alive, not a good reason for bailing them out though. Buy them out, to the tune of their existing debt, break them up, and send them on their way, with large low-interest government loans to repay. After imprisoning all the executives that decided their personal profit was more important than national security. And all the regulators who were either incompetent or corrupt enough to not spot the problem sooner.

Re:Thanks Rei

[Rei]

You know, I just had a heartwarming thought. I could drop dead tomorrow, and yet for years to come, people on Slashdot would be crediting any story that gets posted about Musk/Tesla to me. It's nice to know that people think about me when I'm not around :)