Elon Musk: Bitcoin Structure is Brilliant, But Has Its Cons; Paper Money is Going Away (ark-invest.com)

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Elon Musk: Bitcoin Structure is Brilliant, But Has Its Cons; Paper Money is Going Away (ark-invest.com)

Posted by msmash on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @06:05AM from the closer-look dept.

Elon Musk, who among other things, is a pioneer in the payments industry, has weighed in on one of the most divisive topics in finance today: Bitcoin. In a podcast with Cathie Wood of ARK Invest, Musk, the co-founder and chief executive of electric car maker Tesla, was asked to "go off topic" and offer up some thoughts on the most famous cryptocurrency. From a report: "I think the bitcoin structure is quite brilliant. But I'm not sure that it would be a good use of Tesla's resources to get involved in crypto," he told Wood. Musk, who founded PayPal, added that the days of paper money are numbered and digital currencies could offer a more efficient solution to shifting value. "Paper money is going away and crypto is a far better way to transfer value than pieces of paper, that's for sure, but it has its pros and cons," he said.

141 of 250 comments (clear)

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

Physical money will never go away by Larry+Lightbulb · 2019-02-20 06:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

If he means money made of paper, then he's probably right, but wrong otherwise. There's plenty of people who don't, won't, or can't have a credit card and more who wouldn't have a personal computing device to do their daily transactions with.
1. Re:Physical money will never go away by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 06:25 · Score: 1
  
  Yep. You are so very right young man.
  Some people will never adhere to a strict standard, never move with the crowd. It's always been that way.
  Why I remember the Summer of '76 when I spent my time cleaning potatoes down at the A & P for Mr. Farnsworth. He was a man who hadn't moved with the times and never would. Told me "Things now a days ain't worth a hill of beans." He was so right. Stuck to his steel drawer Standard Register and his white Toledo scale way into '88. Of course that's when the new supermarket opened up and completely wiped the old fossil off the face of the Earth.
  What was I talking about again?
2. Re:Physical money will never go away by fahrbot-bot · 2019-02-20 06:27 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  If he means money made of paper, then he's probably right, but wrong otherwise.
  Case in point, the Bank of England now uses polymer banknotes for their current £5 and £10 denominations and will use that for higher ones in 2020. Many other countries have done the same for their currencies. Polymer notes are (reportedly) cleaner and stronger (allowing them to last longer) and safer (can incorporate more security features).
  
  --
  It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
3. Re:Physical money will never go away by Tulsa_Time · 2019-02-20 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  Free, but monitored, and your purchases will be in the NSA database.
  
  --
  5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
4. Re:Physical money will never go away by jellomizer · 2019-02-20 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  The question is how much of your time is used in dealing with paper?
  Counting it, recording it, having to drive over to the bank to deposit it, then what is your plan if you don't have the correct bills to make change. How many potential customers go to your competition because they just don't have cash on hand, what about if the cash is lost, or stolen.
  Not knowing what type of business you are actually in, but dealing with cash only could be costing you more then that 2%, but it is hard to see because it is the difficult to see Opportunity cost.
  
  --
  If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
5. Re:Physical money will never go away by jellomizer · 2019-02-20 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  Even if a person cannot get a Credit Card (which they probably could find one, because they will give them out to anyone), They often can get a Debit card from their local bank, which works just as well.
  
  --
  If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
6. Re:Physical money will never go away by jellomizer · 2019-02-20 06:47 · Score: 1
  
  This would be a combination of a sales and value add tax. For government who focus on a progressive tax structure, this has the problem as everyone is paying the same percentage of money.
  
  --
  If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
7. Re:Physical money will never go away by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 06:48 · Score: 1
  
  It's 2% of revenue not 2% of profits, which is worse.
  On the other hand, handling cash is not free. This can escape very small business owners where the cash handled is on par with handling their personal finances, but cash doesn't scale up very well to even somewhat bigger small businesses. I can't say that I know what it costs though.
  I'm a bit skeptical of non-digital systems entirely going away. What would you do in emergencies during a power outage like the northeast blackout of 2003 or major network failure, just forego eating for a little while? But I could see it becoming cheque-only and not having fixed-value physical tokens, and becoming the extreme exception to the rule.
  The last time I handled physical money was years ago on a vacation to Europe and even that was mostly for discreet tipping and street food, basically. Not everyone and everyplace is like me but physical currency just stopped being relevant in my life without really trying. I still have a small emergency stash of cash in case I need it and the banks are all down.
  You could use a debit card over a credit card if you prefer, even though I think an adult human with full understanding should be able to handle a credit card, I know you're right that there are people still who just will not, often because they've seen somebody who didn't have full understanding or was just irresponsible.
8. Re:Physical money will never go away by Immerman · 2019-02-20 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  I know several people who, for various reasons, can't even get a bank account. Had one teller even try to tell me I couldn't cash a check on their behalf (Seriously? They can sign the check over to me, and I can deposit it, right? And I can withdraw cash from my account, right? Okay, then do your damned job.)
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
9. Re:Physical money will never go away by jellomizer · 2019-02-20 07:00 · Score: 1
  
  It would seem to me, that we need to solve the problem where these conditions where people cannot get a bank account needs to be solved. The problem isn't the plastic card, but the fact the banks will not offer them.
  
  --
  If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
10. Re: Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 07:18 · Score: 2
  
  It sounds like you gentlemen don't want to be in the NSA database. Sounds like we need to flag you for review.
11. Re:Physical money will never go away by Wycliffe · 2019-02-20 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  It would seem to me, that we need to solve the problem where these conditions where people cannot get a bank account needs to be solved. The problem isn't the plastic card, but the fact the banks will not offer them.
  This problem is solved. They are called prepaid debit. Basically, unlike a credit card or a bank account, overdrafts/overlimits are impossible.
  Some companies have even started using them for payroll cards. Overdrafts/overlimits for a credit/debit card is a stupid money grabbing idea anyways.
  Overdrafts only really made sense in the paper check day when it took a while to verify funds.
  If you can't overdraft the card then everyone can always get one even people with bad credit.
12. Re:Physical money will never go away by ctilsie242 · 2019-02-20 07:34 · Score: 1
  
  There is a trust enclave on any GSM based phone. Ever since AT&T did the Softcard offering which required a distinct application to be placed on SIM cards to handle a trust enclave, all SIM cards are able to handle secure computing and banking.
  I'm actually surprised that more phone makers don't take advantage of this. A SIM has a good amount of room to not just store stuff securely, but be able to have areas that are sectioned off and can be PIN protected. Moving the secure enclave to the SIM means less stuff to worry about on the phone.
13. Re:Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 07:35 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  No, it would be about making everyone account for all their money.
  The problem is that the people who are hiding their money tend to be the poor. A handyman is a good example, these people don't make all that much money, what they do make is on a cash basis and they usually pay taxes on little or none of that money. This is what makes it possible for you to hire someone on craigslist who comes and installs an appliance for a reasonable rate. There isn't much tax to be gained here.
  The people who are dodging significant amounts of tax that are worth pursuing are doing it legally. The biggest dodges are dodging income entirely. There are several ways to do that, real estate is a good one, just reinvest the proceeds or if you own a boatload of stock in a company only sell what you need and give a chunk to charity or to pay a debt to avoid paying tax on it. The stock you gave away counts as money spent but only stock you cash in and dividends count as income.
14. Re:Physical money will never go away by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 08:04 · Score: 1
  
  Somewhat. You have to keep in mind that there's some issues existing.
  1) The prepaid debit cards are credit card vendor specific. I cannot for instance use a VISA prepaid at Costco, I have to use Mastercard. Other merchants some may only accept Visa and Mastercard but not American Express, and other combinations of some such. Cash however by law must be accepted for all debts (merchants can refuse service before the debt is incurred though).
  2) Some merchants in the US offer cash discounts. Gas stations are pretty commonly offer a 3% cash discount. If you're middle class then it doesn't really make sense, but this is significant for low income families that are able to hold full time employment and are able to budget and support themselves, but only just.
  3) There's fees associated with prepaid debit cards. Reloading for instance is a $3 fee and depending on the card, there's either a monthly fee or a 1.5% transaction fee (it's not much but it's there).
  Ironically it is expensive to be poor.
15. Re:Physical money will never go away by b0s0z0ku · 2019-02-20 08:04 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No, but society can use the poor as an excuse to keep cash payments as an option, thus preserving privacy for everyone (including the less poor).
16. Re:Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 08:09 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Troll lol. I guess there are few rich tech beasts with mod points.
  If you want to see an example of how the dodge income scam the rich play works just refer to the taxes Warren Buffet helpfully revealed. I'll fudge the numbers because I'm too lazy to look, the concept and rough scale is right. His actual gains were billions but he only directly cashed out maybe 20 mill and dodged almost all the tax on that giving another chunk to charity. For the most part he is able to invest in new companies, make acquisitions, etc by using stock to do it. Hell, he could pay everyone down to his lawn service in stock for all I know and they'd be crazy not to take it as the stock has a good return and appreciates over time unlike cash which depreciates with inflation.
  This is the loophole which needs closed, these are the tax dodgers we need to go after. Leave the handyman alone, if he does well his business will grow and he won't be able to hide his few thousand a year from the IRS anymore. For the most part small independent business people like the handyman turn out to have a sense of ethics and want to bring it above board as soon as they have enough going on for it to be worthwhile anyway. That is why the IRS doesn't expend many resources tilting at that windmill.
17. Re:Physical money will never go away by taustin · 2019-02-20 08:47 · Score: 1
  
  There's plenty of people who can't get a bank account of any sort. It's currently about 1 in 6 in the US. Musk's attitude of "fuck poor people, they should just die to get out or my way" is pretty typical of the obscenely wealthy left.
18. Re:Physical money will never go away by Immerman · 2019-02-20 08:51 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  No, mostly they're called people trapped in a bad situation created by the society they live in. Even assuming someone screwed up to create the problem in the first place, how are they supposed to go about putting their life right again when they can't even get paid for working? (How many decent employers do you know that will pay with cash instead of check?)
  I do think that society should recognize that it *creates* such people, and work to fix the flaws that produce such people, and make sure that people born into such conditions through no fault of their own, find it easy to leave. "Tough love" only works when a person's problems are of their own creation, not when it's a systemic problem that might keep you trapped just as surely as it traps them, had you been unfortunate enough to be born or stumble into it.
  If we want to encourage everyone to be productive members of society, we need to make it *at least* as easy for the poorest among us to be upwardly mobile as it is for most, not more difficult. But we live in a society that throws up a whole lot of barriers to that climb, some of them pretty substantial. I know people who would be financially devastated by earning a 10% raise - it would push them off the "welfare cliff", and not be nearly enough for them to reach to other side. It is to our shame as a society that we allow such traps to exist.
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
19. Re:Physical money will never go away by CanadianMacFan · 2019-02-20 09:07 · Score: 2
  
  I was reading an article a few years ago about poor people who were getting their benefits with prepaid debit cards and the troubles they have. One other thing than what you've mentioned is that there's a limit on how much cash that they can take out via an ATM in order to pay their rents. So they have have to use the ATM a bunch of times to get enough to pay the rent and each time they use it they get hit with a big access fee.
20. Re:Physical money will never go away by Immerman · 2019-02-20 09:08 · Score: 1
  
  Indeed. I believe part of Bernie's 2016 platform was to have post offices begin also operating as something like very simple, traditional, consumer banks (or maybe credit unions?). Though it seems to me that it might make more sense to simply make it a requirement for all consumer banks to make at least basic no-fee checking accounts available to everyone, just as part of the cost of doing business.
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
21. Re:Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:18 · Score: 1
  
  Yes. After a few days and on the second and subsequent hurricanes a few places with generators managed to get it hooked up. Before that I managed to get one to take a check but handing out checks is more risky for me than them.
22. Re:Physical money will never go away by Xylantiel · 2019-02-20 09:21 · Score: 2
  
  It's worse: printed money is mostly gone already. I don't keep my money in cash, it's a number in a bank register. The federal reserve doesn't print more pieces of paper or anything, they change the rate at which some numbers in a register change. This just demonstrates how dumb the typical bitcoin discussion is compared to the actual dynamics of currency and its management in modern financial systems. These are typically the same ignorant people who think a deflationary currency like bitcoin is a good thing. You do not want people storing value in things that have no actual long-term value. It's a proven recipe for economic disaster (aka people starving to death while food rots in the fields). You want people to use currency to then store value by investing in real things that have future utility.
  The dream of distributed banking is largely a fantasy. Anybody who wants to act as your banker but doesn't want to be subject to the banking laws is likely trying to scam you. Wait... were we talking about paypal...?
23. Re:Physical money will never go away by Rick+Schumann · 2019-02-20 09:47 · Score: 1
  
  Hear, hear.
24. Re:Physical money will never go away by Solandri · 2019-02-20 09:59 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  For those who haven't seen (felt) polymer banknotes (i.e. Americans), they're like Tyvek sheeting used to wrap houses and also for certain large USPS envelopes (visit the post office). Very strong, durable, and tear resistant.
  
  U.S. currency has to go through certain, brutal tests before it's approved. One of these tests is to roll it into a tight cylinder inside a metal tube, then a piston travels down the tube to smash the paper cylinder down length-wise. This test is repeated multiple times. Any new bill or security feature has to survive this process before the U.S. will adopt it. This is why U.S. bills don't have large holograms like bills from some other countries - this rolling/crushing test destroys them. This is probably also why we haven't adopted polymer notes yet. The polymer notes are resistant to folding, and this test is pretty much the ultimate force-fold test. It probably weakens if not tears some of the plastic fibers substantially, whereas the more pliable plant fibers in paper bills can survive it.
25. Re: Physical money will never go away by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 10:00 · Score: 2
  
  Agreed. It's dangerous with all this talk about cracking down on the means of the little people (we need to regulate crypto, we need to go cashless for society) when the rich will always have some loophole. We don't even have to make it a 70 precent top tax either. If we could evven get the majority of the top to even pay a true 30 precent of their income without loopholes (as in they get no tax deductions) that be better than the state we have now.
26. Re:Physical money will never go away by thegarbz · 2019-02-20 10:48 · Score: 1
  
  or can't have a credit card
  What's a credit card? As an almost completely cash free person I don't understand. Is that like those bank cards that banks in western countries and 3rd world shitholes give out free to everyone with an account regardless of age, charge no fees, and allow you to pay for anything anywhere?
27. Re:Physical money will never go away by thegarbz · 2019-02-20 10:51 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  England? Now? Australia introduced those as a complete set for general circulation 27 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  Holy shit I'm getting old. I remember that.
28. Re:Physical money will never go away by Local+ID10T · 2019-02-20 11:07 · Score: 3
  
  Why would anyone give away 2% of the profits to a payment processor?
  Because I make significantly more sales by accepting cards than I would if I only accepted cash.
  The convenience factor of paying by card encourages people to spend more than they would otherwise. Often customers come in, pick out an item, see more items that are of interest, ask if I accept cards, and then buy several items.
  Some people carry cash. Some carry only a card. Some carry only a phone. Most can pay multiple ways. As a merchant it is part of my job to make it convenient for customers to pay me.
  
  --
  "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
29. Re:Physical money will never go away by fahrbot-bot · 2019-02-20 11:12 · Score: 1
  
  England? Now? Australia introduced those as a complete set for general circulation 27 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  Holy shit I'm getting old. I remember that.
  I referenced the same Wikipedia article for other countries. England was just the first country that came to mind -- I think I remember reading an article about a security measure in the bank notes (or bank notes in general), which also noted them being polymer.
  
  --
  It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
30. Re:Physical money will never go away by Darinbob · 2019-02-20 11:20 · Score: 1
  
  Even if crypto currencies will take over, the current crop of them are entirely unsuitable as a replacement. Most were designed as a get-rich-quick scheme, or a way to avoid law enforcement, and in a practical manner leave much to be desired.
  Predictions of the future fall flat most of the time. Remember we were to have the paperless office predicted a couple of decades ago, and that is not the case anywhere. A paperless monetary system is likely to be similar. It doesn't matter how loudly some twenty-something hipsters argue that cash is useless, paper books are obsolete, or why are luddites still using keyboards, you can't change the entire world by whining about it.
31. Re:Physical money will never go away by Darinbob · 2019-02-20 11:25 · Score: 1
  
  Dodging tax by paying to charity isn't a scam really or a way to not pay the money. Many governments consider giving to charity as a valid, legal, and moral alternative and not the same as dodging tax. Now the people who don't pay tax and who don't give to charity either, or only give tiny pittances to charity, are the ones really cheating the system.
32. Re:Physical money will never go away by mbkennel · 2019-02-20 12:18 · Score: 2
  
  Because the payment processor lets you essentially issue credit to buyers but the credit risk of the buyer has been shifted onto the bank instead of the merchant.
  
  The trade-off is a percentage of revenue in return for potentially higher volume that wouldn't occur otherwise.
  
  What's the difference between a personal computing device and a payment card reader? Nothing very important.
33. Re:Physical money will never go away by jpaine619 · 2019-02-20 12:24 · Score: 1
  
  This is the loophole which needs closed
  You seem to be misinformed. Those "loopholes" aren't oversights.. They're put in deliberately, after the fact, usually in unrelated legislation that modifies other legislation. Buffet also uses the capital gains laws to his full advantage, and before you suggest closing all the "loopholes", realize that a person who owns a single home and sells it (CA is being referenced here) is hit with a 15% capital gains tax if they haven't lived in the house for 2+ years, so if you move the 15% tax to the higher personal income tax, you'll absolutely fuck anyone who buys a house, and then who has to sell it because circumstances force them to move somewhere else (job, health, etc). 15% is a big hit as it is, but 30%? It's not always the rich who benefit from the "loopholes"..
34. Re:Physical money will never go away by j-beda · 2019-02-20 13:14 · Score: 2
  
  Gifting shares of stock to another just transfers the cap gains over to them, and reduces one's lifetime gift exemption.
  Paying someone with stock is likely viewed as selling them the stock, and thus would trigger the cap gains being realized. Selling it for less than its market value would reduce those gains, but of course would reduce the amount of money you get for it even more.
  Donating stocks does give you a charitable deduction, and avoid the cap gains on that stock, but you are still poorer than if you had sold the stock, paid the taxes, and kept all the rest for yourself.
  Here are some details: https://www.forbes.com/2010/07...
35. Re:Physical money will never go away by Spy+Handler · 2019-02-20 13:19 · Score: 1
  
  pretty much. Elon Musk is going away but physical money aint.
36. Re:Physical money will never go away by Enigma2175 · 2019-02-20 13:49 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  An even better example is Donald Trump. In 1995, he claimed a loss of $916 million on his personal tax return. But he didn't lose a billion dollars. His company didn't even lose a billion dollars. The banks that lent him the money that he lost on his horrible property deals were the ones that realized the loss. From TFA:
  
  Investors, for example, can walk away from a property and record the investment as a loss — even if they were playing with borrowed money. While a profit from that same property would be treated as a capital gain, losses are treated as “operating losses” under a tax code provision that dates back to the Great Depression. Those losses can be deployed far more flexibly than capital losses to shield other income from taxation.
  “He was forced to sell many of his investments in the early 1990s, at pennies on the dollar, teetering on bankruptcy,” Edward Kleinbard, a tax expert at the University of Southern California, said of Mr. Trump. “There were real economic losses from those investments — borne entirely by the lenders. Yet nonetheless he was able to emerge with a large net operating loss to carry forward, attributable primarily to losing other people’s money.”
  Not to mention the fact that any money that he acquired previous to that (mostly from his father) wasn't taxed either, partially by exploiting the current laws and in some cases just flaunting them to dodge taxes. Things like vastly understating the value of property that his father was transferring to Donald in order to avoid gift taxes, setting up sham corporations to funnel money to Donald and his siblings and getting paid large sums of money for "property management" services when Donald was just 3 years old. Some of the techniques were legal, some were of questionable legality and some were blatantly illegal. But rich people have armies of lawyers to besiege the IRS when anything is questioned so they rarely are held accountable even for the small fraction of tax frauds that are discovered.
  And the whole reason that some of these tax schemes are legal is because the government is owned by the rich and powerful, they basically shape any tax legislation to their ends. Rich people have obscure methods for shielding their income from taxes because they wrote the laws that created those methods. It takes a hell of a lot of landscapers under reporting their income to equal the taxes dodged by one billionaire.
  
  --
  Enigma
37. Re:Physical money will never go away by tepples · 2019-02-20 15:04 · Score: 1
  
  I'm actually surprised that more phone makers don't take advantage of this. A SIM has a good amount of room to not just store stuff securely
  But no SIM is included with a Wi-Fi-only tablet, and device manufacturers may not want to confuse their customers with different feature sets between the two.
38. Re:Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 18:36 · Score: 2
  
  Giving to charity is not an alternative to tax but that debate aside the loophole isn't giving to charity, the loophole is that you don't pay tax on stock unless you sell it and they give the stock to charity, not money that would count as income.
  For normal people that wouldn't really be a loophole, $100 in stock is like a $100 more or less, the charity just sells it. But you don't pay tax on stock until you sell it. The argument is that you have to sell it eventually and you'll pay tax then but if you give it to a charity, aka a non-profit no taxes are paid on that money. Additionally, when you are a billionaire you never pay tax on the money you don't need. As I indicated Buffet made billions, he should pay taxes on billions, instead he paid tax only on the 20 million he cashed out. At that rate he will never pay the tax on the money he made that year let alone all the money he has made. It's a beautiful scam, you see he made billions, he only reported 20 million but on paper he reduced his "taxable income" even further to single digits and then paid on that allowing him to claim an effective tax rate on par with the lower middle class. His actual tax rate came nowhere near 1%.
  How many top 5% working class 139k/yr workers does it take to add up to the billions he dodged tax on? Worse that he can then reinvest and take the future proceeds on? His gains on just the taxes he dodged have definitely dwarfed every penny he paid in taxes since and likely will for some time to come and they compound.
39. Re:Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 18:43 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, those loopholes were put in intentionally. The people take advantage of them can afford to pay for them. It is hell of a lot cheaper to buy a politician than for someone like Buffet to actually pay on his billions in gains. But there is little to no capital gains there anyway, capital gains only kicks in on the tiny amount of stock he actually sells.
  As for your other points, they are true and make no mistake it is no accident these things hit normal people in some way as well so that it would sting to remove them. But you can always add exceptions to avoid that. For instance in Texas there is a gross receipts tax on business and no personal income tax, you are exempt from the tax if your business has less than a million in gross receipts. Just limit real estate to your primary residence of at least five years with a requirement to state in the new home for at least five years. For the stock, retirement accounts remain tax free under existing terms and for the rest a million dollars of stock appreciation seems just fine. Also on transfers of stock to third parties, including charities, the giver must pay tax on the income as well as the seller on the gift (in the case of gifts to charity only the giver would pay). At that point you only even potentially impact the .1%.
40. Re:Physical money will never go away by jpaine619 · 2019-02-20 20:22 · Score: 1
  
  Considering the fact that the top 1% pay 42% of all income taxes, at what point would you be happy with not soaking them for even more? If they're paying 42% of ALL the personal income tax collected by the IRS, how much is enough? 50%? 100%?
  This blurb is from a few years ago, but the gap his widened even more since.
  
  An analysis of IRS data by the Tax Foundation shows that the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.4 percent of the total income taxes collected by the federal government, the highest percentage in modern history. While the bottom 95 percent paid 39.4 percent of the income tax burden.
  The top 1 percent is comprised of just 1.4 million taxpayers and they pay a larger share of the income tax burden now than the bottom 134 million taxpayers combined.
  Why isn't that enough?
41. Re: Physical money will never go away by jpaine619 · 2019-02-20 22:13 · Score: 1
  
  Typical angry liberal who's mad that someone has more.. Sorry Charlie, but the Universe rewards those who excel. All of Darwinism is built upon that fact.
42. Re: Physical money will never go away by peragrin · 2019-02-20 23:03 · Score: 1
  
  I just want them to pay their share. If they have 90% of the income then they should pay 90% of the taxes.
  If we each pay 10% of income in taxes and my income is $100 I pay $10. If your income is $100,00 then you should pay $10,000. Currently you are only paying $1,000 and complaining you pay $990 more than me.
  Amazon is paying zero coropate taxes this year because idiots like you keep making excuses about how high corporate tax rates are.
  
  --
  i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
43. Re:Physical money will never go away by Pascal+Sartoretti · 2019-02-21 01:38 · Score: 1
  
  Why would anyone give away 2% of the profits to a payment processor?
  Because processing cash also has its costs.
44. Re:Physical money will never go away by mjwx · 2019-02-21 02:51 · Score: 1
  
  If he means money made of paper, then he's probably right, but wrong otherwise.
  
  This. Most new bank notes series issued today are made from polymer.
  
  Even US notes aren't and I'm pretty sure, were never made from paper. They're made from linen, hence they were once called "rag money".
  
  --
  Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
45. Re:Physical money will never go away by Shaitan · 2019-02-21 04:10 · Score: 1
  
  First of all that number was drastically lower in 2018, closer to 30%. Secondly, with more than 60% of wealth, it is less than their share.
  The bigger issue is that the top 2-9% pay 30% and are solidly in the working class. A fair portion of the 1% are working class as well, very successful doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. Using percentages for these things is misleading. Nobody is targeting an upper middle class engineer making 250k/year. We are talking about people dodging taxes on millions to billions of dollars on tax gains.
46. Re:Physical money will never go away by taustin · 2019-02-21 04:15 · Score: 1
  
  You're really obsessed with my ass, there, son. Kind of perverted, you are.
47. Re:Physical money will never go away by slash.jit · 2019-02-21 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  Agree with credit card but not with personal computing device because that number of plenty of people is reducing every day. I can see that even in a developing nation like India where I come from. I would have never thought that smartphone would penetrate rural and old age market but I was really surprised. I always thought that our previous generations would just stick with land phones or basic phones, but I was proven wrong. Even my mom who is not at all a gadget/tech savvy has a smartphone now. They just don't use it as much as the current generations. What would happen when their generation is gone and current and future generations are left.
  I think after 100 years you will rarely find people without a personal computing device, Only those who are absolutely against smartphones will be left behind. Same can happen for digital money. Personal computing devices will make credit cards obsolete, next would be paper money.
  Remember even with paper money it's just a database record anyway, the paper really never holds that value. So it's need is obsolete already,
48. Re: Physical money will never go away by jpaine619 · 2019-02-21 08:16 · Score: 1
  
  I just want them to pay their share. If they have 90% of the income then they should pay 90% of the taxes.
  Yeah, we all kinda decided that communism sucks. You want a free ride at someone else's expense. Nobody owes you anything.
49. Re:Physical money will never go away by jpaine619 · 2019-02-21 08:21 · Score: 1
  
  Nobody is dodging taxes. It's the hypocrisy I hate the most. You know damn well you pay the exact amount of taxes you owe and not a dime more. I suspect you happily take every legal deduction you can. But when someone else does the exact same thing, you get pissed. Too bad..
50. Re:Physical money will never go away by jpaine619 · 2019-02-21 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  Gains are not income.. If you buy a house and overnight it doubles in value, you don't have more money. You probably will have a larger tax bill (less money), but until you sell the house you are not a richer person. If you never sell the house then those gains mean absolutely nothing and should not be taxed.
  Same with Buffet. His stock holdings might double in value, but unless he sells said stock, his income has not increased by a penny. If his dividends increase, then sure, he'll owe more taxes.
  
  ....dodged almost all the tax on that giving another chunk to charity
  Holy fuck.. He gave money away and you're still unhappy...
Forgets digital money relies... by blahplusplus · 2019-02-20 06:12 · Score: 2

... on power. If there's ever a power outage of any significance your "economy" is fucked. Doesn't seem very sound to have such a point of failure. It would make it trivially easy to fuck up anyones economy in case war broke out. Seems like a recipe for disaster.
1. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by Comrade+Ogilvy · 2019-02-20 06:28 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  We are already past ten toes over that line. When there is a power outage most businesses shut down, because they cannot process credit cards. Many cannot even process cash.
  Obviously much of this is still solvable with cash around. Supposedly.
  Of course, this larger ominous question is why the banks were bailed out with the 2008 meltdown. Because if all the big banks were suddenly forced to file for bankruptcy, would the credit cards still work? Could you get gas and get to work? Can that gas station actually get gasoline delivered? Can your grocery store get restocked?
  Once a business, say, a gasoline distributor, goes into bankruptcy, they cannot suddenly create a novel procedure to extend credit to the corner station without approval from a judge.
2. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by Immerman · 2019-02-20 06:58 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  That's a good reason for keeping the banks alive, not a good reason for bailing them out though. Buy them out, to the tune of their existing debt, break them up, and send them on their way, with large low-interest government loans to repay. After imprisoning all the executives that decided their personal profit was more important than national security. And all the regulators who were either incompetent or corrupt enough to not spot the problem sooner.
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
3. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by lgw · 2019-02-20 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  If there's ever a power outage of any significance your "economy" is fucked. Doesn't seem very sound to have such a point of failure.
  
  If the power goes out, what are you going to buy with cash? The cash registers at the grocery stores won't work, and it's not like anyone knows how to make change these days. Can't buy gas, as the pumps won't work. Banks can't operate without power these days, so you're limited to cash on hand.
  
  --
  Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
4. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by DontBeAMoran · 2019-02-20 07:36 · Score: 1
  
  And some places won't sell anything even if they could, because it's all tied into their inventory systems.
  
  --
  #DeleteFacebook
5. Re: Forgets digital money relies... by edris90 · 2019-02-20 08:51 · Score: 1
  
  You write a written receipt, make a second one have them sign it, then hold on to it to run the transactions through the computer later, and use your basic math skills. Fourth grade level shit
6. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by lgw · 2019-02-20 09:21 · Score: 1
  
  . I don't know if you have ever worked a retail customer facing job but I bet you 100% of the time they do not "shut down" the store when the power/cash registers go out.
  
  Most of the places I've lived, they not only shut down, they lock and barricade the doors to deter looters.
  
  --
  Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
7. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  Other banks will be more than happy to fill the void of the ones that crash. We shouldn't keep avoiding turmoil like the plague, we should be letting it happen and learning how to cope. You end up with a more flexible system that can take it in stride that way. What we have is a fragile house of cards with too many central points of failure.
8. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by istartedi · 2019-02-20 09:47 · Score: 1
  
  Some businesses can't process cards or "process cash", whatever that means but there are definitely backup plans available.
  In the case of cards, any business that wants payments should have one of these old school devices for emergencies. Given the cost of this device, it seems foolish to take the chance of missing sales because you don't have one. AFAIK, you process the payments electronically somehow after the power comes back up. Back in the day I don't know how they did it--perhaps they mailed a carbon copy to a clearinghouse.
  As for cash, you just write the paper invoices by hand. People do it all the time where I am. I know some one-man shop mechanics that only take checks or cash because they don't want to deal with all the BS from credit companies.
  
  --
  For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
9. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by Comrade+Ogilvy · 2019-02-20 10:52 · Score: 1
  
  What you say makes sense, but my most recent credit cards will not work with that imprint technology.
10. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by thegarbz · 2019-02-20 10:54 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously much of this is still solvable with cash around. Supposedly.
  Much of this is solvable in many ways. Having a business continuity plan should be a requirement regardless of what you use.
  Last time there was a national outage of debit processing I paid for petrol the same way as many other people, by bank transfer when my bill arrived in the mail a few days later after handing over some ID.
11. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by istartedi · 2019-02-20 11:21 · Score: 1
  
  I didn't know what you were talking about, but after some googling around I found this. That's so evil. Screw that.
  
  --
  For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
12. Re:Forgets digital money relies... by Immerman · 2019-02-21 06:28 · Score: 1
  
  Yes - provided the nation can avoid paying a major price for allowing them to crash. To that end I think making sure no one bank (or conglomerate) is ever responsible for more than a few percent of the market. I believe 10% market concentration in a single supplier is commonly regarded as the point that a market has definitely consolidated to the point that a free market no longer exists - I'd have no problem banning any one company from doing more than maybe half that much business.
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Expert in something != Expert in the other thing by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2019-02-20 06:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Normally that is how I would respond. But in this case there are some mitigating circumstances. Elon was involved with Paypal, some sort of payment tracking system. And it is mentioned to be off-topic. So I am going to be a little forgiving here.

--
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Paper money is not going away by sjbe · 2019-02-20 06:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

I think the bitcoin structure is quite brilliant.
The blockchain technology might be brilliant. Bitcoin very definitely is not. We shouldn't confuse the two. The jury is still out on blockchain but I think the more interesting uses of it won't be for currency. Bitcoin is an interesting but ultimately flawed experiment which might also be a pyramid scheme either intentionally or unintentionally.

Paper money is going away and crypto is a far better way to transfer value than pieces of paper, that's for sure, but it has its pros and cons
This is just idiotic. Paper money isn't going away any time soon and neither is fiat currency. Maybe in the far future but even then I doubt it. There is simply too much utility in paper money for a lot of transactions. Asking everyone to either carry an expensive computer with them or carry some means to interact securely with one in order to facilitate even the most basic transaction is unrealistic. Not everyone can get a credit card or afford a smartphone and even if they could it still wouldn't be practical some of the time.
If he actually thinks the dollar is trading bits of paper he has no idea what money actually is. (I doubt he's that naive) The vast majority of currency is nothing more than digits in a ledger somewhere. Paper currency is a tiny fraction of the total amount of money in circulation. Somewhere less than 10% of the total.
1. Re:Paper money is not going away by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · 2019-02-20 07:00 · Score: 1
  
  Paper money is going away and crypto is a far better way to transfer value than pieces of paper, that's for sure, but it has its pros and cons
  This is just idiotic. Paper money isn't going away any time soon and neither is fiat currency. Maybe in the far future but even then I doubt it. There is simply too much utility in paper money for a lot of transactions. Asking everyone to either carry an expensive computer with them or carry some means to interact securely with one in order to facilitate even the most basic transaction is unrealistic.
  I agree with you and have no mod points so I have to comment instead of modding you up. I like Musk but he does say stuff off the top of his head at times that is dubious, like he believed that the odds were really good that this life of ours is just a simulation in a giant computer somewhere. Anybody interested in the subject can look up online and find some really good refutations of that idea.
2. Re:Paper money is not going away by thereddaikon · 2019-02-20 07:04 · Score: 2
  
  Blockchain is a federated ledger. That is pretty cool once you account for all the usual shortcomings of federated systems. The problem with blockchain right now is that its suffering from the same buzzword effect you see with every new tech. Too many people want that juicy VC money so they are all trying to come up with new ways to implement the new buzz word. That means it inevitably becomes the butt of every joke because blockchain is advertised as the solution to every problem. It isn't, we all know that. It is a solution to some problems. And in cases where it makes sense its very clever indeed. Blockchain has a lot of potential, especially between institutions who's databases may disagree or within logistics networks. I could see financial institutions using it to keep track of transactions and FedEx so they never lose a package again for example. But it has downsides like anything else. We've already seen security issues where enough compromised clients can flip the system and in effect rewrite the history on the ledger. This is very bad. It's also not particularly useful outside of cases where you need a lot of different systems to track the status of a thing that changes hands often.
3. Re:Paper money is not going away by Ashthon · 2019-02-20 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  This is just idiotic. Paper money isn't going away any time soon and neither is fiat currency. Maybe in the far future but even then I doubt it. There is simply too much utility in paper money for a lot of transactions.
  I haven't carried paper money in years and do perfectly well. In the past it wasn't viable because there used to be a £5 minimum spend on card transactions, but now there's no minimum so you can pay for everything on your card. Contactless payment has made this even more convenient, and you simply flash your card to make the payment, which is far easier than fiddling around with coins and notes.
  
  Asking everyone to either carry an expensive computer with them or carry some means to interact securely with one in order to facilitate even the most basic transaction is unrealistic.
  You don't need an expensive computer, all you need is a debit/credit card. I fail to see how carrying around a thin piece of plastic is less convenient than having a pocket full of metal and paper.
  
  Not everyone can get a credit card or afford a smartphone and even if they could it still wouldn't be practical some of the time.
  Why do you assume you need a credit card? I myself don't have a credit card, and instead use a debit card for all transactions, so the money simply comes straight out my bank account. I'm genuinely confused as to why you're bringing smartphones or credit facilities into this conversation, when debit cards have existed for decades and contactless debit cards have existed for about ten years.
  From your negativity, I can only assume you've been holding out on switching to going cashless, but if you try it you'll never both with cash again.
4. Re:Paper money is not going away by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2019-02-20 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  There is strong incentive for the government to cut down on paper money. Cheaper, can track people, no worry about counterfeits. So you can expect the government to make it more difficult to use paper money.
  Visa and Mastercard would love the idea of collecting 2% toll on every transaction. There are lots of enemies for paper money.
  They might succeed.
  
  --
  sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
5. Re:Paper money is not going away by b0s0z0ku · 2019-02-20 07:43 · Score: 1
  
  The trend in US cities has been to introduce legislation REQUIRING brick-n-mortar stores to accept paper money -- at least on the local level, government is responsive to popular anger about tech and inequality.
6. Re:Paper money is not going away by b0s0z0ku · 2019-02-20 07:45 · Score: 2
  
  I was more cashless for a long time, then I got poor, so I started using more cash. Makes budgeting easier, and feels comforting to have actual money in my pocket.
7. Re:Paper money is not going away by ctilsie242 · 2019-02-20 07:57 · Score: 1
  
  Paper money isn't going away anytime soon. People tend to be distrustful of the government in the US. If paper money in the US stopped being printed and the mints stopped working, people would start using loonies, pesos, and centavos.
  One other thing: Governments make money every time they print a unit of currency, be it a coin or a paper bill. Good old fashioned seigniorage. The US government isn't going to cut itself off from this revenue source.
8. Re:Paper money is not going away by paskie · 2019-02-20 08:19 · Score: 1
  
  China *already* proved you wrong. Even the beggars in the streets wear alipay QR codes. For daily use, cash already effectively went away in China *right now*, not in the future. No reason this is not going to happen in the rest of the world, Africa might be next. No opinion when it will happen in the US in particular, but who cares.
  
  --
  It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the end. -Douglas Adams
9. Re:Paper money is not going away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:40 · Score: 1
  
  "The blockchain technology might be brilliant. Bitcoin very definitely is not. "
  Bitcoin very much is brilliant and not just the blockchain technology, blockchain alone isn't all that fantastic. Bitcoin also leverages many existing technologies in a new and unique way. Yes, ultimately bitcoin has turned out to have a choke point at a certain scale and that needs resolved but the scheme is brilliant.
  "Bitcoin is an interesting but ultimately flawed experiment which might also be a pyramid scheme either intentionally or unintentionally."
  Bitcoin is not and never was a pyramid scheme regardless of any flaws it might contain at least not beyond what any business is a pyramid scheme. Early investors in anything always benefit but that doesn't make it a pyramid. Bitcoin recirculates, pyramid debunked, it is that simple. People who profited excessively profited in spite of people who couldn't understand that concept because they assumed a high risk investment and carried that risk over time. Some people profited on market volatility as well but that don't even remotely relate to a pyramid.
10. Re:Paper money is not going away by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:43 · Score: 1
  
  Blockchain also isn't the only thing brilliant in the Bitcoin implementation. It isn't really an individual technology but the masterful way in which they were combined and the economic concepts applied that makes it so impressive. Frankly it scaled beyond what anyone could dream of with a beta protocol.
  Hopefully when all the hype dies down and the crazy market swings that come with uninterested speculators Bitcoin continues.
11. Re:Paper money is not going away by angel'o'sphere · 2019-02-20 11:55 · Score: 1
  
  I haven't carried paper money in years and do perfectly well. In the past it wasn't viable because there used to be a Â£5 minimum spend on card transactions, but now there's no minimum so you can pay for everything on your card. Contactless payment has made this even more convenient, and you simply flash your card to make the payment, which is far easier than fiddling around with coins and notes.
  That would not bring you very far in Germany.
  I don't know a single bakery where you can pay with a card, what so ever the card is.
  Or a pub for that matter, sure, there are some but my two favourite ones definitely don't accept cards.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
12. Re:Paper money is not going away by jezwel · 2019-02-20 15:05 · Score: 1
  
  That would not bring you very far in Germany. I don't know a single bakery where you can pay with a card, what so ever the card is. Or a pub for that matter, sure, there are some but my two favourite ones definitely don't accept cards.
  That's..pretty disappointing really. I used cash to buy some chocolates from a coworker raising money for their school earlier today, but otherwise I'm having a hard time thinking of a place that doesn't accept contactless cards now (Australia).
  The fresh food market - all the stalls can process cards. Food trucks, yep. Go to a concert in a big field and all the bars and food vans will take cards - even the merchandising tents will take cards. Coffee shops, bottle shops, pubs, supermarkets, comic stores, music stores, everyone takes cards - you'd be throwing away a massive percentage of customers if you didn't.
  Even the MANIAX axe-throwing place takes cards.
  ahh wait, the homeless and chuggers aren't yet running around with card readers. Thankfully.
This is Retarded by NicknameUnavailable · 2019-02-20 06:18 · Score: 2

Cryptocurrencies are dependent upon our tech infrastructure being stable enough to validate them. If government-backed currencies die then that tech infrastructure wouldn't be far behind (if at all.)
You can have my paper money by bobstreo · 2019-02-20 06:22 · Score: 3, Interesting

when you pry it out of my cold dead mattress. /s
Especially when I can get a discount for using cash instead of the seller having to pay a transaction fee if a credit card or some other method of payment is used.
1. Re:You can have my paper money by DontBeAMoran · 2019-02-20 07:33 · Score: 1
  
  You can have my paper money when you pry it out of my cold dead mattress.
  Even with the /sarcasm, it sounds strange. Was your mattress alive at one point?
  
  --
  #DeleteFacebook
2. Re:You can have my paper money by danlip · 2019-02-20 08:44 · Score: 2
  
  Yes, it was called Zem and lived in the swamps of Sqornshellous Zeta. Many of them are slaughtered, dried out, and shipped around the galaxy to be slept on by grateful customers. https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Mattresses
3. Re:You can have my paper money by taustin · 2019-02-20 08:56 · Score: 1
  
  A fumigator can take care of that for you. Bedbugs are an increasing problem in many areas.
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by Thelasko · 2019-02-20 06:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

He has two bachelor's degrees. One in economics and one in physics. His experience with PayPal aside, Bitcoin is firmly within his areas of expertise.

--
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Wide swings in value is not a "con" by xxxJonBoyxxx · 2019-02-20 06:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Wide swings in value is not a "con" - it's a non-starter for the general public. Ask the Weimar or anyone unfortunate enough to live in Venezuela.
1. Re:Wide swings in value is not a "con" by Thelasko · 2019-02-20 08:19 · Score: 1
  
  Wide swings in value is not a "con" - it's a non-starter for the general public. Ask the Weimar or anyone unfortunate enough to live in Venezuela.
  ...or anyone that used gold for that matter. People want a currency that has stable value, and that means the currency supply must expand with demand for said currency. Bitcoin's creators assumed rising demand for Bitcoin would spur more mining activity. However, they made it too costly to mine, and the supply dried up. New currencies can learn from this and make mining less expensive to stabilize prices.
  
  Solving this money supply issue would be a very useful and novel invention. This is currently a task that's performed by humans, and far from perfect.
  
  --
  One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Because fire is a much greater danger than quantum by ebyrob · 2019-02-20 06:37 · Score: 1

Yes, let's please put all our faith in cryptography we know will become 100% obsolete with the proper implementation of quantum computers.
Paper may be the foundation of civilization, but it can get wet and burn so it must not be nearly as safe or secure.
In other words... by Picodon · 2019-02-20 06:37 · Score: 1

crypto (...) has its pros and cons
Translation: a number of those pros excel at using crypto to pull cons on the rest of us.
Credit Cards by Mes · 2019-02-20 06:43 · Score: 1

What really needs to go away are credit cards. Having a 3% or higher tax paid on every transaction is a huge drain on the economy and pocketbooks. No way we should be paying that kind of extortion.
This week's pump... by Chewbacon · 2019-02-20 06:43 · Score: 1

...and dump. Watch those coins burn.

--
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
Those folks are already getting debit cards by rsilvergun · 2019-02-20 06:45 · Score: 5, Informative

shoved down their gullets. I know a few guys with fucked up finances and crap jobs. They don't get checks, they get money on a debit card every week or two.

It's sucks of course. There's fees and it's a major pain to use. But here's the rub: nobody really cares about these people. I mean, the current administration just rolled back a ton of consumer protection and anti-payday loan rules and nobody batted an eye. I only know about it because the crazy left wing sites I like complained about it (the kind that run articles on "The high cost of being poor".

TL;DR; If you're well enough off that you matter you're already getting away from cash because going to understaffed banks and waiting in line is a drag. If you're poor enough to depend on cash you're gonna get dragged into the cashless economy and taken advantage of by it, but nobody care.

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
1. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 07:45 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "Crazy left wing sites". The irony of it is that those sites would be moderate, fence sitters in any other country.
  It isn't hard to wind up in that category. A former co-worker closed a bank account. A year later, some place hit the account with an ACH debit, and then the bank placed the co-worker on the Chex Systems blacklist. Even though the account was closed, that $25 for some yearly thing became $250 with all the fees the bank assessed. No word was sent to the co-worker by mail. He found out about it when his savings account was closed by the current bank.
  The current US system has no protection for anyone but businesses. It is like the early 1900s, all over again, with hucksters and snake oil sellers everywhere, no laws to protect consumers, and step out of line, and the Pinkertons will end you. Only difference is that we have a recession-proof economy that only goes up and a stock market which is crashproof, so most people really don't care about this stuff.
2. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 07:50 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Getting COMPLETELY away from cash is what boggles my mind. Sure, all my professional and mostly personal things are handled electronically, but I often travel to weird places, at weird times, where things like electricity or signal can not only not be relied upon, but sometimes don't exist to begin with. Not having say, $200 in cash is just mind boggling to me.
  I guess if I never left my green zone I wouldn't care, but why live that way.
3. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by b0s0z0ku · 2019-02-20 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  I think this is illegal ... see below:
  https://www.today.com/money/fe...
  Or maybe was illegal before Trump watered down protections against such things.
4. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:21 · Score: 1
  
  "The irony of it is that those sites would be moderate, fence sitters in any other country."
  Only in Europe. As a European friend of mine said, he moved here because in the EU there is a far left, a crazy far left, and an even further left and nothing else and he was tired of looking at the lazy deadbeats he worked to pay for day in and day out.
5. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:28 · Score: 1
  
  "A year later, some place hit the account with an ACH debit, and then the bank placed the co-worker on the Chex Systems blacklist. Even though the account was closed, that $25 for some yearly thing became $250 with all the fees the bank assessed. No word was sent to the co-worker by mail. He found out about it when his savings account was closed by the current bank.
  The current US system has no protection for anyone but businesses. It is like the early 1900s, all over again, with hucksters and snake oil sellers everywhere, no laws to protect consumers, and step out of line, and the Pinkertons will end you. Only difference is that we have a recession-proof economy that only goes up and a stock market which is crashproof, so most people really don't care about this stuff."
  This however is a valid issue and very real. It has nothing to do with the left, neither D's nor R's want to fix these issues they are just two flavors of spin on policies that get worse over time. Warren may have sold out or might have just played the game so she could get traction, we'll see and Sanders has been fighting this crap for decades with a solid track record. All the rest are the enemy or unproven.
  Honestly, you could go a more social route to fixing issues here or you could go with a more free market spin. Either done properly could lead to a stable and prosperous system. Nobody wants to do that though, half measures will kill us. Look at Obamacare it is a half-assed measure that skyrocketed health costs to the point where people making six figures can't even afford care and the only 'help' it has provided is to break the simple check doctors have of 'do you have insurance' to see if someone can pay the bill. Either take control so you can force economy of cost through the entire healthcare chain or deregulate it properly with even handed and cheap to implement and follow minimal policy but a half assed compromise policy won't work.
6. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by thegarbz · 2019-02-20 10:52 · Score: 1
  
  Wait... you guys have fees on debit cards? But Credit Cards kind of give you free money the more you use them? That's messed up.
7. Re:Those folks are already getting debit cards by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 11:12 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Funny thing, a friend of mine just moved to Europe from the US because in the US there is a far right, a crazy far right, and an even further right and nothing else and he was tired of looking at the lazy rich deadbeats getting fat while he and everyone else worked for them for peanuts and lousy healthcare.
  Of course, another friend recently moved to Mars because he was tired of listening to stories about imaginary friends and absurd one-sided geographic generalizations about politics, which is all the folks on Earth ever talk about. I'm thinking of joining him there.
Power outages by sjbe · 2019-02-20 06:52 · Score: 1

We are already past ten toes over that line. When there is a power outage most businesses shut down, because they cannot process credit cards. Many cannot even process cash.
When there is a power outage there are plenty of business that keep going just fine. The reason many shut down isn't just because of payment processing, though that certainly is one significant consideration for some like large retailers. Smaller ones can usually get by for a while. My company shuts down in a power outage because we are a manufacturing company and our equipment requires power to be useful. Payment processing isn't really a big issue for us and we don't depend on it to function day to day. A company like a lawn service might not really even notice a power outage of just a few hours.

Of course, this larger ominous question is why the banks were bailed out with the 2008 meltdown
Because there really was no option to not bail them out unless you wanted the next Great Depression. The banks need/needed to be regulated more than they were but that's a separate issue.

Because if all the big banks were suddenly forced to file for bankruptcy, would the credit cards still work?

Under what circumstances is this anything besides a ridiculous rhetorical question?
1. Re:Power outages by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:31 · Score: 1
  
  "A company like a lawn service might not really even notice a power outage of just a few hours."
  Yes but the typical brownout or thunderstorm isn't the issue, the issue is natural disaster. Think weeks without power and you can't drink the water because it is contaminated with sewage even before the cities pumps stop and the tap goes off.
Handling paper money isn't free by sjbe · 2019-02-20 06:55 · Score: 2

Why would anyone give away 2% of the profits to a payment processor?
You think processing cash is free? ALL forms of payment processing cost money, including cash. You have to pay people for their time to track it, organize it, deposit it, secure it, etc. Not to mention the fact that cash is rather easy to steal. None of this is free. In some cases it might cost less than what a credit card company charges but sometimes it costs more.
1. Re:Handling paper money isn't free by Comrade+Ogilvy · 2019-02-20 11:04 · Score: 1
  
  Yes. That.
  If 2% can motivate someone to take on extra hassles of cash, like precisely tallying the materials for the job, then we do not have to guess what dodging ~25% (IRS) and 14% (SSI) can get via chucking the paperwork in the trash.
  And I bet you are right about the fun and games part, too. The temptation would be to shove the materials costs of 6 jobs into that one job that paid with a big check, to whittle down the profits you are forced to declare. That works until someone asks questions about why plumber who is often claiming to always mismanage expenses to his detriment can live on less than 1000 hours of labor.
Physical money may go away by ranton · 2019-02-20 06:58 · Score: 2

While I don't think it is a given, moving to a cashless society in the US is a possible future. But the only way I see it happening is if the government stops subsidizing cash and pushes the costs on those who decide to use cash. The cost of printing money, storing money, disposing of money, investigating counterfeit money, investigating tax evasion from off the books transactions, etc. costs tens of billions of dollars a year. If the US Treasury started offloading those costs to banks who request cash, who would then transfer those costs to consumers, cash usage may drop significantly. Instead of offering a discount for using cash, companies may charge extra for cash transactions.
Credit card transactions are only more expensive because of credit card rewards and because the government subsidizes cash. If you remove the subsidies things my become far more even.
If Congress then changed the law so companies do not need to accept cash for transactions, a cashless society becomes even more likely. Once again, I'm not saying it is certain, just that it is possible.

--
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
1. Re:Physical money may go away by b0s0z0ku · 2019-02-20 07:49 · Score: 1
  
  One of the good things (I mean this with no sarcasm) about widespread illegal immigration is that it creates a huge "unbanked" population in some parts of the US, which mostly uses cash. This makes it difficult for brick-and-mortar businesses not to accept cash, thus delaying the cashless transition. And no, I have no problem with the law being broken if it serves the interests of privacy.
Re:Elon Musk and Bitcoin in one Slashdot post? by lgw · 2019-02-20 07:12 · Score: 1

Slashdot groupthink hates it when you point out the groupthink.
All we need is a story about Musk, Bitcoin, and global warming for the perfect storm of clickbait.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Thanks Rei by 110010001000 · 2019-02-20 07:15 · Score: 1

Good job Rei sneaking in a story about ARK Invest. I can't wait until Tesla hits $4000 a share. We are all going to be rich (and save the planet too!)
1. Re:Thanks Rei by Rei · 2019-02-20 09:25 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  You know, I just had a heartwarming thought. I could drop dead tomorrow, and yet for years to come, people on Slashdot would be crediting any story that gets posted about Musk/Tesla to me. It's nice to know that people think about me when I'm not around :)
  
  --
  When was the last time you ran anywhere? I mean with your own legs, not by pressing 'X'?
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by 110010001000 · 2019-02-20 07:21 · Score: 1

Thats pretty amazing that having bachelor degrees in economics and physics makes you an expert in Bitcoin (or anything). Who knew?
Re:Elon Musk and Bitcoin in one Slashdot post? by SuperKendall · 2019-02-20 07:28 · Score: 1

Slashdot groupthink hates it when you point out the groupthink.
I know, right? The unofficial logo for Slashdot is a bunch of panties crumpled into a tight ball. Maybe a black hole with a constant stream of panties swirling outside the event horizon.
All we need is a story about Musk, Bitcoin, and global warming for the perfect storm of clickbait.
Yep, closer every day! I can almost feel it coming, the Clickening.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:bitcoin sucks by DontBeAMoran · 2019-02-20 07:30 · Score: 1

There was https://www.coingecko.com/en/c...
But it's been dead for a long time.

--
#DeleteFacebook
Re: I have not seen paper money in years by DontBeAMoran · 2019-02-20 07:31 · Score: 1

I have also not seen paper money in years.
p.s.: I'm Canadian.

--
#DeleteFacebook
Didn't realize that was possible by rsilvergun · 2019-02-20 08:00 · Score: 1

but it doesn't really surprise me. Still, if you make good money it would be easy enough to fix. If you're paycheck to paycheck though nobody cares, and that's 60-80% of the population (depending on how you run the numbers).

Also, Mod parent up. I know we're not supposed to complain about the Mods, but everything you said seemed on topic and without exaggeration.

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by johnwfran · 2019-02-20 08:01 · Score: 1

In my experience, bachelor degrees make you an "expert" in jack shit.
Illegal doesn't mean much if law's not enforced by rsilvergun · 2019-02-20 08:09 · Score: 1

my buddy got a few grand from a class action but then the company continued to do the stuff that caused the class action. The only reason he got that is a lawyer smelled money. It was better than the nothing he was gonna get anyway though.

There's an old Dilbert cartoon where the mean little Dog (Dogbert?) sets up a phony government office to take advantage of people (the "Bureau of Dogs") and Dilbert says he's complain about it to whoever manages that sort of thing.

The last panel had Dogbert telling an aggrieved man that it cost $50 to file a complain and $10 bucks to borrow a pen.

The world is like that. The Right Wing took over state legislatures and used that to stop funding the government agencies that protect people. They sold this to the public as "shutting down those stodgy bureaucrats". The result is things like labor and consumer protection first only exist on paper. They're not funded, so there's nobody there doing the work and nobody to complain to.

Along with changing the bankruptcy laws so that you can't discharge debt under $100k this was one of the biggest shifts in power in American history. And nobody's said a word about it (except those aforementioned left wing sites barely anybody reads).

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
1. Re:Illegal doesn't mean much if law's not enforced by b0s0z0ku · 2019-02-20 08:12 · Score: 1
  
  Which is why the unions need to become more active again -- worker protections weren't created by nicey-nice people negotiating with employers in a boardroom. They were created because factories and mines mysteriously started having expensive accidents if the unions weren't treated fairly by their employers.
2. Re:Illegal doesn't mean much if law's not enforced by ctilsie242 · 2019-02-20 09:01 · Score: 1
  
  When did the bankruptcy laws get changed to only 100,000 or more to be discharged?
Cannabis by Larry+Lightbulb · 2019-02-20 08:25 · Score: 1

You need paper money to buy it legally. Thought he would have known that.
I'm not giving Visa/MC 3% by DogDude · 2019-02-20 08:38 · Score: 1

I personally pay credit/debit card fees for my business. They're about 3% of gross, when all is said and done. That's a lot of fucking money, that's not, in my opinion, worth 3%. Personally, I always use cash, when possible, because I refuse to give those Visa/MC leeches one more penny.

--
I don't respond to AC's.
1. Re:I'm not giving Visa/MC 3% by david_thornley · 2019-02-20 11:18 · Score: 1
  
  If the fees aren't worth it, your business can always refuse to accept credit and debit cards. Most merchants appear to think that the cost and hassle of accepting the cards is worth it. As a customer, I gain from using my Amazon credit card, because I get points back that I can spend at Amazon like they were cash, and my wife and I buy enough on Amazon to make it worthwhile. I also get half-assed financial records, which are usually adequate for my budgeting. If I were to get an automatic 2-3% discount for paying cash, it might be worthwhile, but as it is the incentive is for the customer to use plastic.
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Podcast by Thelasko · 2019-02-20 08:43 · Score: 2

Since this is a podcast, it should be noted that the cryptocurrency question is asked around the 25:40 mark.

--
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by taustin · 2019-02-20 08:55 · Score: 1

He's an expert in getting other people to invest in his business ventures, even the government.
I wonder what stock he's planning to start selling to venture capitalists this time.
Re:Bills of Sale and Receipts are paper monies by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:15 · Score: 1

What is sad is there are sane and coherent logical arguments to support a subset of what you are saying. You and those like you are a sort of strawman that lets those sane and coherent arguments appear to be easily defeated. You are a character that results in actual rational debate ending because anything associated with anything you'd say is laughable.
Personally, I don't think it is an accident. It's like The Colbert Report except the Colbert's don't even know they are a mockery of actual rational and educated people meant to discredit them.
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by TheRealMindChild · 2019-02-20 09:25 · Score: 1

expert in Bitcoin

Bitcoin isn't exactly hard to understand

--

"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:34 · Score: 1

Paypal not aside he is the founder of the largest digital payment system (some would argue currency) on earth.
But it's not our call, is it? by King_TJ · 2019-02-20 09:40 · Score: 1

It seems to me like paper money will go away the day a government declares it so. In the U.S. right now, it would be entirely possible to issue some sort of government "cash card" to everyone, and dissolve the U.S. mints and all of their operational costs to offset the expense of issuing them.
All of this talk of paper money never going away because "the poor won't have bank accounts or credit cards" misses the point. All of the cash people walk around with had to be produced at considerable taxpayer expense and is maintained after that (damaged bank notes destroyed and replaced, etc.). It's not like it's unfathomable that the Federal government wouldn't just set up its own "no monthly fee, no credit check necessary" system where everyone gets a card.
Where that gets disturbing, to me, is that you're giving up the anonymous nature of cash transactions. You won't even be able to buy a stick of gum without it being logged in a computer system owned by the Fed. But practically speaking? I don't think those concerns will do much to stop things from progressing. Government already keeps tabs on any purchases you make of more significance, such as a home or car, and demands banks report your large cash deposits to them. 99% of the population will decide it just doesn't matter that government knows about all the little stuff you purchase .....
1. Re:But it's not our call, is it? by King_TJ · 2019-02-20 11:44 · Score: 1
  
  Do you *really* think the people get represented on any of this when the Federal Reserve isn't even really a government agency in the first place?
Re:No no no by Shaitan · 2019-02-20 09:45 · Score: 1

"Musk is an very rich idiot who made his fortune running a payment processor, I think he know more about money than you and I."
Really because that just sounds like he'd be more biased toward digital payment processing than you or I.
Not all the banks were bailed out by rsilvergun · 2019-02-20 10:14 · Score: 1

It was mostly Wall Street and Consumer banks that collapsed. The credit card banks did just fine.

Banks are smart enough to keep profitable business (Credit Cards) separate from risky ones (Mortgage backed securities).

I wish I could say the same about average Joe consumer. That numbnut let the wall between Main Street & Wall Street banks get busted down and he keeps letting more and more banking regulations get repealed because they're "job killing regulations".

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by thegarbz · 2019-02-20 10:55 · Score: 1

We can't all have a Bachelor of Internet Trolling.
Re:Bills of Sale and Receipts are paper monies by Comrade+Ogilvy · 2019-02-20 11:09 · Score: 1

I think that the point is to spur responses.
Some are amateurs who just like reactions. Some, being actual paid Russian trolls, are probably rated by the number of responses. Angry responses are easier to elicit than thoughtful ones, thus...this stuff.
American here by rsilvergun · 2019-02-20 11:46 · Score: 1

half the folks at any job I've ever had are deadbeats. I remember one guy who'd come in, take one 4 hour bullshit phone call, go to lunch, do another long, 4 hour bullshit phone call and go home.

Very few folks are needed to run things anymore. But we're a "if you don't work you don't eat" society. So you've got a ton of jobs where you're over staffed.

If your friend ever gets a real taste of the efficiency he's pining for he's gonna hate it. That is unless he gets to join the owner-class and just boss the working class around. Maybe he will, but if not the choices will be non stop desperation or abject poverty.

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Canadian Banknotes Too by Anonymous Coward · 2019-02-20 13:14 · Score: 1

For those that haven't experienced them, they aren't like you imagine them to be:
- they don't feel like plastic garbage or shopping bags;
- they don't stick together (at least not any more than the paper bills did);
- they aren't super slippery, though they are smoother than paper;
- the feel does take getting used to but that's muscle memory and you adjust;
I say this as someone who was skeptical of the plastic banknotes.
vending and arcades are not paying $10/mo+3% devic by Joe_Dragon · 2019-02-20 13:26 · Score: 1

vending and arcades are not all going to be paying $10/mo+3% device to take cards.
casino cash with out cash advance fees will they t by Joe_Dragon · 2019-02-20 13:29 · Score: 1

casino cash with out cash advance fees will they take cards with out running it as an cash advance?
Re:Expert in something != Expert in the other thin by bill_mcgonigle · 2019-02-20 16:01 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure when he said 'founding the world's largest Internet payments company aside' that was sarcasm.

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
happened decades ago, Musk and you all missed it? by iggymanz · 2019-02-20 16:03 · Score: 1

Most money is digital, not paper.
Bitcoin fails for so many reasons by sjbe · 2019-02-21 01:36 · Score: 1

It isn't really an individual technology but the masterful way in which they were combined and the economic concepts applied that makes it so impressive.
The "economic concepts applied"? That might sound brilliant to someone who is ignorant of the economics involved. Bitcoin is basically a techie love letter to going back to the gold standard and it fails for many of the same reasons with a few new problems thrown in. Plus it's organized like a multi-level marketing scheme (fraud?) with the people that got in early reaping most of the advantages. If you think Bitcoin is a brilliant take on economics you don't understand the economics involved.

Frankly it scaled beyond what anyone could dream of with a beta protocol.
Bitcoin is wildly popular with speculators and people hoping to avoid legal scrutiny and some libertarians with a hard on against fiat currency. It's consuming ridiculous amounts of energy, is far more expensive per transaction than the dollar, is accepted almost nowhere, has enormous exchange rate volatility, and is utterly useless for most people most of the time. But other than that it has "scaled beyond...".
Going cashless isn't an option for everyone by sjbe · 2019-02-21 02:02 · Score: 1

I haven't carried paper money in years and do perfectly well.
I have people working for me that cannot get a credit card or debit card of any description. Exactly what do you propose they do? I don't use much cash myself but what works for me doesn't apply to everyone.

You don't need an expensive computer, all you need is a debit/credit card.
A) Not everyone can get credit or debit cards. About 15 million adults in the US do not have a bank account. Among black or hispanic between 15-20% of households don't have a bank account much less a credit card. And this is in the wealthiest country on the planet. Go to a country like China and credit/debit cards are very rare outside of large cities.
B) A computer is involved in literally every credit/debit card transaction and I assure you that it is expensive. Just because you use plastic doesn't remove the computer from the equation - it just makes it one computer instead of two.

I fail to see how carrying around a thin piece of plastic is less convenient than having a pocket full of metal and paper.
It's not that plastic is less convenient, it's that for a lot of people it doesn't carry much if any added benefit. Virtually everyone carries a wallet of some description. Carrying cash is every bit as easy as carrying a piece of plastic once you are carrying a wallet. Cash transactions are a lot more straightforward in a lot of cases. Cash is accepted almost everywhere, does not require any special accounts, works even when the power is out, etc. It's (usually) quick, it's easy, and it's reliable. Going cashless comes with very real costs which as modest as they might seem to you or me, some people cannot afford or simply do not want.
I've also been to some restaurants where they do not accept credit cards. Go to a farmer's market and start waiving around a credit card sometime. A few vendors accept them but most of the vendors are still cash only.

From your negativity, I can only assume you've been holding out on switching to going cashless, but if you try it you'll never both with cash again.
Not at all. I rarely use cash myself. I might use $40 in cash in a typical month at most and I find that to be something of an irritation. I'm just well aware that going cashless is simply not going to happen for a lot of people any time in the near future. I have several employees who work for me who cannot get credit cards (bad credit) and don't have enough money to bother with a bank account so they don't have a debit card either. Not everyone is as lucky or capable as you and me. Cashless is fine but expecting everyone to do it is just not realistic.
I thought paper money had gone away... for the 1% by whitroth · 2019-02-21 06:51 · Score: 1

For the rest of us...right, you're going to use your card to buy a candy bar? Or a sex toy?
Oh, and btw, slashdotters, from MIT:
"Once hailed as unhackable, blockchains are now getting hacked"
https://www.technologyreview.c...
"Efficient" by Zorpheus · 2019-02-22 03:03 · Score: 1

How can Bitcoin be efficient? Its security comes from the complexity of the calculations. This complexity translates directly into an insane power consumption at the miners. Due to how its security works the cost of this power consumption must must be a quite large fraction of the value of the transactions.
This is just crazy. The base design of cryptocurrencies makes them an insane waste of electricity, therefore creating lots of environmental damage.
Bush Jr did it by rsilvergun · 2019-02-24 06:35 · Score: 1

I remember because my dad just barely squeaked in a bankruptcy (medical debt from when his mom was sick).

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/