Police In Canada Are Tracking People's 'Negative' Behavior In a 'Risk' Database (vice.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: Police, social services, and health workers in Canada are using shared databases to track the behavior of vulnerable people -- including minors and people experiencing homelessness -- with little oversight and often without consent. Documents obtained by Motherboard from Ontario's Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services (MCSCS) through an access to information request show that at least two provinces -- Ontario and Saskatchewan -- maintain a "Risk-driven Tracking Database" that is used to amass highly sensitive information about people's lives. Information in the database includes whether a person uses drugs, has been the victim of an assault, or lives in a "negative neighborhood."

The Risk-driven Tracking Database (RTD) is part of a collaborative approach to policing called the Hub model that partners cops, school staff, social workers, health care workers, and the provincial government. Information about people believed to be "at risk" of becoming criminals or victims of harm is shared between civilian agencies and police and is added to the database when a person is being evaluated for a rapid intervention intended to lower their risk levels. Interventions can range from a door knock and a chat to forced hospitalization or arrest. Data from the RTD is analyzed to identify trends -- for example, a spike in drug use in a particular area -- with the goal of producing planning data to deploy resources effectively, and create "community profiles" that could accelerate interventions under the Hub model, according to a 2015 Public Safety Canada report. Saskatchewan and Ontario officials say the data in the database is "de-identified" by removing details such as people's names and birthdates, but experts Motherboard spoke to say that scrubbing data so it may never be used to identify an individual is difficult if not impossible.

Comments

"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that yet another newspeak term?

And who the FUCK is shocked/surprised over people keeping all kinds of databases? Like every single male geek, I have a database myself keeping track of every single person I've ever met, plotting their current house positions on a map and showing all kinds of stats such as whether they're married, living together with other people, etc. I use it for my personal use only, and it's been very enlightening and depressing...

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

People of Outside?

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use it for my personal use only, and it's been very enlightening and depressing...

Just take creimette out of your database and you will see; you will experience happiness again.

Swan Wee
-Creimette Anonymous president

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the tip buddy!

This is unbelievable! He is such a cockroach! How did he manage to sneak into my database? It beats me.

Anyway, I deleted the guy at 1919 Fruitdale San Jose and I am going to keep my eyes open just in case he reappears.

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

He probably embedded code to insert in your database in one of his complex link redirect schemes or in one of his cookies. He leaves them all over the Internet. Very Dangerous!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Cryptofeces Lepidoptera Creimerus infestation is a serious problem. Not only are they capable of reproducing asexually like amoebas, they can also lay eggs hermaphroditically in unexpected places. They can disguise eggs as something useful to fool the unaware, sometimes pretending to be a haiku author, blogger, vlogger, or IT closet cleaner.

Very dangerous. They can seemingly reproduce out of the cosmic background radiation, even if you step on twelve of them, there's always one you miss.

Don't be fooled by the C. Lepidoptera Creimerus's innocuous, rolly-polly, and almost friendly appearance; despite its great size, stupid demeanor, and bedraggled toothless appearance, they have the hardiness of a tardigrade.

Only a concerted, targeted downmodding campaign has been shown effective in controlling this dangerous pest.

Experience shows that stopping such a campaign leads to C. Lepidoptera Creimerus returning within days.

Don't let it happen again!
--
the biggest looser on Slashdot

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

While you're at it; double-check that he hasn't made you subscribe to his stupid channel without your knowledge. I remember he had such a scheme going on with a special link on his Slashdot user page.

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Creimer donated $71 to the Second Harvest Food Bank of Silicon Valley. #SomethingPositive

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

You really got traumatized by him... Why not let it go?

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those wacky Canadians, eh?

Re: "people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is f4ck3d up.

Re: "people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Experience is good - we need more experienced people. The society and future demands it.

Good morning sweet summer child, been sleeping too long? wakey wakey

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[GameboyRMH]

Urban Outdoorspeople.

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

People of varying accommodational opportunities?

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed .... Molsons, the new Bulgaria. What a long way from sourdough to gaffot. I understand Canada hockey players need to wear frilly-pants so fem viewers feel affirmed!

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

His "legacy" certainly does make me chuckle though.

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Person of no fixed address.

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Urban Outdoorspeople.

I like playing Risk.

Re:"people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a crazy person though. Normal people don't keep databases on folks.

Re: "people experiencing homelessness"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I found this awesome online service to do that, it's called "Facebook" and it even gets people's phone numbers, email addresses, and search histories, so I can completely and utterly invade their private lives. And the best part is, people are somehow completely ok with it!

Great Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Nanny. Nanny. Nanny.

Re: Great Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

People who want - and vote for- the benefits of a nanny state should not be surprised when they are treated like children.

Why are some police

[Anonymous Coward]

so bad at understanding the law?

Re:Why are some police

[Anonymous Coward]

You know the score pal. You're either cop or you're little people.

Re: Why are some police

[Anonymous Coward]

Itâ(TM)s probably legal here.

Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

Information in the database includes whether a person uses drugs, has been the victim of an assault, or lives in a "negative neighborhood." ...information about people believed to be "at risk" of becoming criminals or victims of harm is shared between civilian agencies and police and is added to the database when a person is being evaluated for a rapid intervention intended to lower their risk levels. Interventions can range from a door knock and a chat to forced hospitalization or arrest.

Saskatchewan and Ontario officials say the data in the database is "de-identified" by removing details such as poeple's names and birthdates

Which is it then?

What are they going to do, forcefully hospitalize or arrest a statistical de-identified person.

Re: Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

The information they used to classify a *town* as "bad" is deidentified only.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more likely to be a record of events indicating mental health problems. This is not always a bad thing. If there are frequent calls from people in the same street about a person behaving oddly or doing anti-social things, it is better to start investigating whether mental health services could help that person live a better life, before they do something harmful to themselves or others.

All too often there are people trying to raise concerns about somebody who is losing the plot, only to find there are no police or health services available for prevention, this leads to those tragic stories we hear when somebody gets a little slashy with a knife, an axe, hell we had somebody get loose with a samuri sword a few years ago, leaving several victims without their hands.

Then there are the American stories of tragedy where people go postal with one or more firearms. You want to say it is better to not keep track of people who seem to be heading in that direction? Society as a whole has got to start helping people remain happy and useful members of society.

Re:Incoherent

[ShanghaiBill]

It is better to start investigating whether mental health services could help that person live a better life

In America, we call these mental health facilities "prisons", and they are currently benefiting over 2 million citizens. But only 60% have serious mental health issues. But we are working to increase that percentage, and the corresponding profits.

Re:Incoherent

[Mashiki]

In Canada, we call this the "revolving door" where people with mental health issues are simply dumped on the streets until they become an issue. The cops have to intervene, they're held in a hospital until court, which puts them into a psych facility. Where they're treated for a few weeks, then dumped back out on the streets.

Are we enjoying the fact that the courts so heavily overstepped on the MH issue, that when they started shutting down facilities they simply gave them bus tickets if nobody showed up for them.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

In America, we call these mental health facilities "prisons", and they are currently benefiting over 2 million citizens.

One thing I experienced today at work was company wisdom. In this case it was, "We choose to not make any software, since buying it is better, since we can always just stop buying it." The argument went on, but that was the core of it, and of course while it is true often, it is not always true, given our need of custom solutions at times.

I've noted that politicians, and in particular republicans usually find some argument, and the argument may even technically be true, such as some action lowering crime. The problem is, like in your example, the bigger picture is neglected and you end up with things like prisons as homes for the mentally ill.

The problem is focusing on the bigger picture is hard, and doesn't break up well into sound bites. Whether or not the risk database is worth it ultimately depends on what you value, but to determine it requires much more understanding.

Re:Incoherent

[Luckyo]

Not at this stage of societal control. Many of the Western countries are directionally aligned with China on this one, but are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally far behind.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

In America, we call these mental health facilities "prisons", and they are currently benefiting over 2 million citizens. But only 60% have serious mental health issues. But we are working to increase that percentage, and the corresponding profits.

I'm sick and tired of your idiotic posts.

I hope you die of cancer this year.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

I can vouch for this, as I live in a big Canadian city. People I know have been through this system, it's horrendously bad at the worst.

At least an "institutionalized" person might have had something to eat and have a bed to sleep in, shutting down all those places put the hopelessly crazy people on the streets or prison instead, where they're much easier marks for anyone.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

In America, we call these mental health facilities "prisons", and they are currently benefiting over 2 million citizens. But only 60% have serious mental health issues. But we are working to increase that percentage, and the corresponding profits.

I'm sick and tired of your idiotic posts.

I hope you die of cancer this year.

The true cancer in society, is adult children like you who cannot seem to handle the hard fucking truth.

Perhaps you should shut the fuck up and go play in the corner while the adults talk. Obviously you're too immature to handle this conversation, especially since the parents post was merely stating fact. What exactly do you need to confirm the state of our mental health system? Another dozen mass shootings? If so, give it a month or two. Tops.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fixation on mass shootings when the vast majority of gun deaths aren't as a result of mass shootings?

Re: Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

Because looking into handgun violence relegates the problem to specific areas which immediately raises very uncomfortable questions about the policies of the party entrenched in said areas.

Re: Incoherent

[Highdude702]

https://heyjackass.com/

Re:Incoherent

[h33t l4x0r]

Aren't you the guy with all the polar bears in your backyard? Is CA giving polar bears bus tickets too? I'm just curious.

Re: Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

Also they have people's browser histories

Re: Incoherent

[c6gunner]

What scares me more about what is happening in Canada is the worst asshole racists are starting to come out of the closet now that the US has one huge racist criminal asshole as President.

If a handful of goons yelling racist insults at a Quebec hockey game scares you, you must have spent your whole life completely terrified. Quebeckers have always been quite a bit more racist than the rest of Canada. I guess they figure they're a "minority group" so it's OK.

Re: Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

I resent that as a Quebecker, we're not all racist assholes. However, the vocal minority makes the rest of us look like twats. That being said, the racist types seem to belong to the separatist camps. And I know... We currently have a semi pro separation government in now, but it was the lesser of the evils... Liberals screwed the pooch royally here.

Re: Incoherent

[c6gunner]

I'm not sure where in my comment you hallucinated the word "all".

Yes, the separatists do seem to be the worst. Who would have thought that identifying with an extreme nationalist movement based on heratige might align with xenophobia ....

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

https://coincircle.com/l/_tJy_cMRtd

Re: Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

What scares me more about what is happening in Canada is the worst asshole racists are starting to come out of the closet now that the US has one huge racist criminal asshole as President.

If a handful of goons yelling racist insults at a Quebec hockey game scares you, you must have spent your whole life completely terrified. Quebeckers have always been quite a bit more racist than the rest of Canada. I guess they figure they're a "minority group" so it's OK.

No I am certainly not singling out Quebec. I grew up on the west coast and saw the systemic prejudice against, the indigenous peoples, the Chinese immigrants, the Indian immigrants. I keenly know all the epithets used by white red neck morons taught to their children from birth. Rag heads, jigs, chinks and a whole host of other insults ingrained in our society. And yes I have witnessed the same terrible prejudice within our peace officers because they like myself grew up with these social attitudes. My point was that the assholes are now feeling emboldened by the election of Donald Trump who is without a doubt a complete closet racist asshole of the first order!

Re: Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more likely that they're emboldened by the election of Trudeau, who is an open racist sexist asshole of the first order.

Re:Incoherent

[Kjella]

Which is it then? What are they going to do, forcefully hospitalize or arrest a statistical de-identified person.

De-identified data, unlike actually anonymous data just means they have a box that strips the data of identifiers and usually assigns it an alias so they can add more data later. There's two risks:

1) That you are recognizable in the data by someone who knows part of the information already. For example imagine cell phone location data compared against your Facebook/Instagram posts or simply real life comings and goings. Very soon it would narrow down to just you matching that exact pattern. In this case it could for example be that you were evicted from a house, a lot of people might know that but maybe not everything else this registry has on you.

2) That in the event of a technical or legal meltdown the de-identifying server is compromised too. As long as there's something identifying a unique person and the data set has not been closed and the mapping wiped it's still technically a potentially the the identity will be re-attached by someone above or outside the law. However very often the primary source will keep this information anyway and the de-anonymization tends to happen close to the source, so it's really just an issue if they register it for the stats then delete the information themselves.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that we can't solve all the problems. Trying to do it is doomed to fail and just raises my taxes.
Can we not get back to not giving a shit about this mythical thing called "society" and just get back to solving our own individual problems?

Re:Incoherent

[Mashiki]

Aren't you the guy with all the polar bears in your backyard? Is CA giving polar bears bus tickets too? I'm just curious.

That depends, is 1500km in your backyard? Maybe you just don't understand how large Canada is, and why even a distance like that would seem trivial to someone who lives here.

Re:Incoherent

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada, like China with a velvet glove and lube.

Not sure about Canada

[rsilvergun]

but in the states crap like this is used for probable cause so they can get away with stop and frisk crap, which is in turn used as a general form of oppression. It's hard to imagine the friendly Canadians doing that crap like we do, but it's a big country.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Mashiki]

Stop and Frisk in Toronto was one of the main drivers of crime downwards. Since Toronto stopped this in high crime areas, the crime rates are screeching ever higher now. Even went as high as the Supreme Court of Canada, that ruled that in particular circumstances such as high crime areas, it's an allowable behavior. It is a form of oppression, but here's what's weighted by the courts: "Does the action create a positive or negative effect for the community." This is weighted as societies rights to be safe vs the rights of the individual. This is a broader action then "detaining any 'close to' suspects in the case of an indictable offence(felony)." To give you another example, in Canada RIDE programs(anti-drunk driving) are a fundamental charter violation and an illegal search. The courts specifically stated that the rights of society to not be hit, injured or killed by the offender or possible offender outweigh the fundamentally guaranteed rights against an unlawful search.

Now to the article at hand, the entire premise of this is based on crime reduction. Let me give you an example, if you're living in Toronto(Ontario) you're more likely to be shot or stabbed then 10 years ago. Crime is a serious issue, more so that there are areas that are degenerating into ghettos ala the US type. In Regina(Saskatchewan), there are entire parts of the city that are ghettos. Crime is staggeringly high(for Canada), it revolves around a single group of people in most cases(aboriginals), this is similar in the US where cities have serious black crime problems in particular areas for example. Regina for instance, has(or had) the highest rape and murder rate in Canada with Winnipeg(Manitoba) catching up second or Toronto. In Winnipeg's case, similar problems similar groups of people, with similar issues leading to generational crime for instance. I.e. broken homes, no fathers, poor education, heavy substance abuse, etc.

Enjoy the shit show.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[markdavis]

>"Stop and Frisk in Toronto was one of the main drivers of crime downwards. Since Toronto stopped this in high crime areas, the crime rates are screeching ever higher now."

Freedom and safety are often at odds with each other. To me, "stop and frisk" is a vile abuse of government power and a violation of essential civil liberties. Sure, it might be effective at reducing crime, but there is a big cost that comes with it... one that I hope people aren't willing to pay.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Mashiki]

Sure, it might be effective at reducing crime, but there is a big cost that comes with it... one that I hope people aren't willing to pay.

That depends. Do you live in a country with no right to own a firearm, and self defense is heavily restricted? In turn your only real protection comes from the state, acting as a medium between the various facets of society. I get your reasoning, in the US for example castle laws exist. They don't in Canada, and there are places in Canada where police aren't minutes away they can be half a day or more away.

Re: Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Still better than Russia.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Kokuyo]

Serious question: If the problem revolves mostly around aboriginals, what changed starting 10 years ago in their overall lives?

One should think that shouldn't be too hard to determine...

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Can'tNot]

Stop and Frisk in Toronto was one of the main drivers of crime downwards.

Your supporting argument for this claim is that the crime rate has increased after the practice was stopped. That's... something. I don't know whether or not crime has actually gone up in Toronto, but given that the man assigned to evaluate the effectiveness of carding (Stop and Frisk) called it, "a practice that has not definitively been shown to widely reduce or solve crime," it seems as though you're jumping to conclusions. Even if it's true that crime has in fact increased since then, there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that it's not a coincidence.

You might also consider New York's Stop and Frisk program, which had few positive results.

What you describe in your second paragraph is racial profiling, what the article is describing seems to be broader than that. Though the "negative neighborhood" comment might be interpreted as having a racial component.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Enjoy the shit show.

Perhaps the rest of the world now understands why Canada literally ran out of weed when they legalized it...

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious question: If the problem revolves mostly around aboriginals, what changed starting 10 years ago in their overall lives?

One should think that shouldn't be too hard to determine...

They probably became exposed to modern society.

And by that, I mean casual sex resulting in single motherhood rates skyrocketing, which results in broken homes and no father figure, which is exactly what has contributed to the downfall in America. The utter evisceration of masculinity in Canada by the Soy Boy PM sure as hell doesn't help either as he demands you recognize 70+ genders using government force, with Straight White Male being shoved to the bottom of the identity politics pile.

Ah, nothing like the revival of segregation and racism to combat segregation and racism...

Re:Not sure about Canada

[rtb61]

Don't lie, do not call it stop and frisk, call it was it is, illegal detention and sexual assault, as a SLAVE, refusal will be severly punished, with, far more violent assault, kidnapping and extended detention, with sexual assault.

THIS IS HOW YOU TREAT SLAVES, not bloody citizens.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

What you describe in your second paragraph is racial profiling, what the article is describing seems to be broader than that. Though the "negative neighborhood" comment might be interpreted as having a racial component.

In the US the single best way to evaluate a neighborhood (as in, do I want to raise a family here?) is to look at the number of blacks who live there. The fewer, the better. Over half of all murders in the US are blacks murdering blacks. Inter-racial crime is overwhelmingly blacks attacking whites. As an individual I cannot stop this, only observe it. Perhaps in Canada it's aboriginals.

Remember when you were a kid and heard that life isn't fair? Well, it isn't. Still there are harsh realities that must be dealt with as you find yourself having to make choices in life. Such as where to live.

Re: Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

How differently would The Diary of Anne Frank have ended if the first nazi breaking through the door had been met with two grenades clattering down the stairs? And similar incidents occurring across the country, night after night.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Trailer Trash]

The other big problem with "stop and frisk" is that it's almost always used only against minorities and poor people, and it causes the divide between those groups and law enforcement to widen. They're already leery of law enforcement, but stop and frisk makes them downright resentful. It is the literal opposite of "community policing". It might actually drive crime down slightly in the short term (although I'd have to see good research to be convinced) but I'd argue that in the long term it's almost certainly going to have the opposite effect.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

Whoa, whoa ..... just... whoa. I'm from a visible ethnic minority and have been stopped a few times while minding my own business. The first few times, it was really annoying but the cops were super polite and very clear on what they were doing. I was polite back, they asked a few questions (e.g. "Are you carrying a weapon, how's your day going so far etc) but never actually searched me.

Was I so offended that I considered that illegal detention? Of course not. Put it in perspective dude/dudette. I was inconvenienced for maybe a minute. Not even really inconvenienced - apart from them having lawful authority to detain me if they so wanted, it was more akin to having a quick chat with a stranger.

I work in analytics so maybe I have a completely different viewpoint from most folks. But here's why I'm not up in arms, before anyone freaks out, I would ask you try and take and objective view of this..

1. I am from a visible ethnic minority that is responsible for some not-insignificant portion of crime
2. My minority group also generally falls into the lower income bracket
3. It is statistically more probable that a member from my ethnic group will commit a violent crime compared to Caucasian or other groups
4. If I'm stopped and even searched by someone who is polite and has the welfare of MY community at heart, I welcome it

Now, on the other hand, if a cop stops you in the street and starts asking you questions and your first reaction is to get uber-defensive and maybe even confrontational, then I'm sorry to say but in my eyes, you're the problem. If you are unfortunate to fit the profile of someone the police are concerned about, you don't ALWAYS have to take it personally. It's not YOU they are interested in, it's the profile. Some folks just need to be able to distinguish between the two.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

The driving factor behind all of those problems is arguably foreign government interference; high immigration, low wages, unabated foreign investment in local markets that have pushed prices on necessities like housing to unaffordable levels, and bad city and societal planning in general. All of that combines to create an underclass who will never "make it" and they turn to and romance the concept of hustling and crime because it's their best shot; there's a fundemental disconnect between the side of society that is productive and that underclass. Often, the same city planners and foreign governments who are behind screwing the public will push that narrative knowing all to well where it leads, and play the public against itself by inviting the productive half to get disgusted by the unproductive half by saying various things about them. There's an argument to be made there that these policies are intentionally genocidal, how strong that arguement is really depends on the available statistics but I think people are beginning to catch on.

The US is a little different; everyone's armed to the teeth. You try that game here, you're going to find out it has a half-life. You can bring in a bunch of Mexicans to run a warehouse for example, but they're going to steal you blind and there's nothing you can do about it. You expect them to vote democratic, they begin voting for a border wall and for their gun rights. You can try locking people into bad investments, they'll declare bankruptcy and when a crash comes, the police will refuse to throw people out of their homes and the state government might just give them the house if they pay the tax on it. Having firearms sitting around collecting dust makes people play nice with eachother.

Ultimately, isolating people from society because they behaved bad is not a long-term solution as you are not providing them with a path back to behaving properly nor are you providing society with the ability to choose novel solutions to problems that you might not agree with. Certainly there's scientific evidence that some approaches won't work.

Re: Not sure about Canada

[c6gunner]

That's part of it. The other part is that we've progressively handcuffed police over time to the point that enforcement of the law when the perpetrator is native has become incredibly difficult. Even if police manage to investigate and effect an arrest, chances are the perp ends up in a "healing lodge" on some reserve instead of in a prison.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

I agree, mostly. Freedom and safety are often at odds. I disagree that "stop and frisk" is a vile abuse of gov't power. It's an unfortunate action but maybe a necessary one. I know someone, somewhere is going to trot out the old, "If you sacrifice liberty for safety, you deserve neither" line but c'mon. A minutes inconvenience (if that, even) is not depriving you of your liberty, unless you decide to escalate the issue.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

> This is weighted as societies rights to be safe vs the rights of the individual.

As much as I hate crime, I'll be happy to keep my individual rights thank you very much. Tomorrow you might become statistically risky and get a warrantless cavity search. If that floats your boat, all the power to you, but I personally would try to avoid such things.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

I wish I could mod you up but I've already commented here :(

If you're a victim of a crime or about to become one, I wish you luck if your recourse is waiting for the cops to arrive and save you. Especially in Canadian winter when the roads are bad and people forget how to drive.

In Canada, if you're about to get robbed, the cops will NOT be there to save you. And they won't even really be motivated to investigate afterwards.

Re: Not sure about Canada

[c6gunner]

Canada didn't run out of weed; the "approved" (aka legal) distributors had problems keeping up with the demand as people tried to switch away from the gray/black market. There was plenty of weed to go around; just not through the legal channels.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[TimothyHollins]

... one that I hope people aren't willing to pay.

This kind of thinking depends heavily on where you live. A happy liberal in a white suburb values individual freedom much more than a poor liberal in a ghetto. It's always easy to talk about individual freedom when you're not the one getting shot.

That's not to diminish your position; freedom is in some way a cornerstone of a solid and strong society. But freedom means different things in different situations. I value the freedom from violence, abuse, and robbery, higher than individual freedom, as the former if left unchecked causes the downfall of a society.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

Wait, large scale gun ownership makes a society safer? So why do we have the highest homicide rate in the first world by over 2 times the next closest country?

Violations of personal freedom like stop and frisk and are even more necessary when there are guns all over the place. The effect it had on New York's crime rate helps illustrate this.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[AmiMoJo]

Sound similar to London where stop and search just make things worse by increasing distrust in and animosity towards the police, making it harder for them to intervene early or gather intelligence. Of course the Metropolitan Police have had problems with institutional and individual racism for decades too, which only exacerbated the problem.

What really helped in London was funding youth services and community projects that diverted people away from crime and gangs. When austerity started a decade ago the money went away and crime rates went up. Now there is a serious knife crime problem and the only effective solution takes at least a few years to really start working.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on how bad the crime is. If 50% of a subclass ( aboriginals/nibbers/wettbakkks etc ) commit casual violent crime, then either you genocide the perps or ... SAF harass till the offender-class return to their igloos ... whatever ... or arm your majority citizens with permissions & training to shoot-on-attack. Cull-the-herd.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[apoc.famine]

Now, on the other hand, if a cop stops you in the street and starts asking you questions and your first reaction is to get uber-defensive and maybe even confrontational, then I'm sorry to say but in my eyes, you're the problem.

And in my eyes, if you don't do this, you're the problem.

Normalizing a police state is not what we should be doing. I am not ok with "papers please". A police state never ends well for its citizens. Given that here in the US police shoot non-armed individuals all the time, yeah, I'm fucking going to be on the defensive if some try to stop me. There's a non-zero chance that they will kill me. In fact, it's about as likely that they will kill me as an actual criminal would.

1. I am from a visible ethnic minority that is responsible for some not-insignificant portion of crime
2. My minority group also generally falls into the lower income bracket
3. It is statistically more probable that a member from my ethnic group will commit a violent crime compared to Caucasian or other groups

And the answer to none of those problems is police action. Those are 100% social issues, and need to be addressed with social change. Cops stopping you and potentially killing you does not solve those issues.

4. If I'm stopped and even searched by someone who is polite and has the welfare of MY community at heart, I welcome it

In what fantasy world do cops have the wellfare of your community at heart? Stop and frisk is the opposite of that. It's a tool of authoritarian repression and discrimination. It does nothing to solve the root issues of the problem, and everything to propagate them. You are far less likely to be carrying drugs than a white person, but you are far more likely to get stopped, searched, possibly killed, and sent to jail if you're not. Killing and jailing the men of minority populations does not make crime better or reduce poverty within those populations. It does exactly the opposite.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

You are really twisting the data. Here are some facts brought to you by Stats Canada:

1. Toronto has one of the lowest murder rates (shootings/stabbings) of all cities in Canada.
2. Last year Toronto had ten fewer shootings than the year before.
3. Across the board, violent crime rates are mostly dropping across Canada.
4. While there have been spikes in violent crime in some cities (Toronto and Vancouver) it has almost all be inter-gang related. In other words, your risk of being murdered is up if you're in a crime gang, but otherwise it is down.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we're assholes.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[cayenne8]

So why do we have the highest homicide rate in the first world by over 2 times the next closest country?

Gangs.

Largest by far percent of gun violence is gangs with handguns shooting each other. Next is suicide.

The chances of you getting involved with a shooting by the majority of legal gun owners is less than you dying in a car accident.

I for one, like to have the option to protect myself.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

I'll just say this, my experience with cops must be vastly different to yours for us to have such polarizing opinions

Re: Not sure about Canada

[Sique]

Not very different. The people forming the later NSDAP were privately heavily armed. They came from the Freikorps, from the Sturmabteilung (SA) and the Leibgarde Adolf Hitler (later called Schutzstaffel or SS for short)... all of them private citizens owning private firearms.

Private firearms in the hands of citizens didn't prevent the Third Reich. It helped to enable it.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[max99ted]

^ this.

Really I know it's trendy to pick on cops but most of them really do have the welfare of the community at heart. Are there exceptions? Of course. But they are just that... exceptions.

Source: Know lots of cops, mostly professionally but some personally as well.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, large scale gun ownership makes a society safer? So why do we have the highest homicide rate in the first world by over 2 times the next closest country?

Diversity of values and cultures. When those clash, violence is one of the potential results.

Want a perfect peaceful society? Look at the nordics. Within their borders 97% all the same ethnicity and culture.

Want diversity of values and cultures? Be ready for more violence, such as the trends prove empirically in multiculture driven countries.

The US has chosen the latter. We have chosen liberty, diversity, and yes, violence.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

"Gangs.

Largest by far percent of gun violence is gangs with handguns shooting each other. Next is suicide."

There are plenty of gangs in every first world nation, they just have a much harder time getting guns because guns are much rarer.

"The chances of you getting involved with a shooting by the majority of legal gun owners is less than you dying in a car accident."

Absolutely. Where do the guns come from that are illegally owned though? Are there illegal gun factories in the US pumping out black market guns? No, they are all legally manufactured in the US and legally sold to distributors or direct to vendors in the US. Only afterwards do they end up illegally owned. In other words, we have so many people who own guns illegally precisely because of our mass legal gun ownership.

I for one like the idea of living in country where, generally speaking, the worst a mugger has is a knife because if they're a mugger they'll have their weapon out well before I ever would so my own right or non-right to carry a gun would be irrelevant.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[cayenne8]

Absolutely. Where do the guns come from that are illegally owned though? Are there illegal gun factories in the US pumping out black market guns? No, they are all legally manufactured in the US and legally sold to distributors or direct to vendors in the US. Only afterwards do they end up illegally owned. In other words, we have so many people who own guns illegally precisely because of our mass legal gun ownership.

I for one like the idea of living in country where, generally speaking, the worst a mugger has is a knife because if they're a mugger they'll have their weapon out well before I ever would so my own right or non-right to carry a gun would be irrelevant.

So, we should deny the rights of the VAST majority, the millions of legal, responsible gun owners, due to a small minority of criminals?

I mean geez, when a drunk drives a car into people and kills them, do you blame the car?

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

You're putting words in my mouth, I have advocated for nothing. I have only pointed to the source of our homicide problem.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Macdude]

I'm not sure how your post got modded "informative" when the criminal statistics you state are factually wrong. The murder rate in Toronto is lower than it was ten years ago, for example. Also Toronto's murder rate is below the national average, not #2.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I get the argument you're making, and I'm generally sympathetic to it: a society in which citizens are subject to arbitrary detention by the police has all sorts of possible abuses. But in arguing it, you shouldn't resort to lies.

For example:

There's a non-zero chance that [the police] will kill me. In fact, it's about as likely that they will kill me as an actual criminal would.

Shootings by police in the US are 1000 every year recorded, 500 most years. The total homicide rate in the US is ~16000/yr. So being shot by a criminal is far more likely than being shot by police - even before we start to look at the circumstances, and find that most people shot by police were in the process of attacking them.

Similarly, stop and frisk has, when introduced, dramatically decreased crime rates - and repealing it has increased them again. It's about as clear-cut as a social-policy result can get.

If you've got a spine, you should be able to say "Stop and frisk decreases crime rates, and reduces the risk of harm coming to bystanders, but I oppose it anyway on civil liberties grounds.".

Re:Not sure about Canada

[kbahey]

Stop and Frisk in Toronto was one of the main drivers of crime downwards. Since Toronto stopped this in high crime areas, the crime rates are screeching ever higher now.

For others who are reading this and modding it up, a bit of perspective.

The Stop and Frisk version in Toronto was known as Carding, and had problems. It targeted blacks disproportionately.

Read and watch these:

DocZone: Stop and Frisk

What You Need to Know About Carding

You also make it sound that Toronto is a kill zone. Yes, murder rate has gone up, and is the highest in Canada, but compared to cities in the USA, it is nothing.

Baltimore has 56 per 100,000, and Chicago had 23.8 per 100,000 in 2016.

Toronto's worse year in a decade (2018) is 96 murders for 2.8 million people, so 3.4 per 100,000, and that is up from around 2 previously.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

You got some problems with your data:

>> if you're living in Toronto(Ontario) you're more likely to be shot or stabbed then 10 years ago

From drilling down on the StatsCan website, the Violent Crime Severity Index has dropped over the last ten years. The overall crime rate has gone up, but not violent crime.

Regina and Winnipeg (and Saskatoon) have the highest murder rate (and overall VCSI) in Canada, but Toronto's isn't even in the top ten.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[dryeo]

Yet cars are highly regulated. All kinds of safety features required. Other requirements such as good tires required on the road. Licenses needed.
Cops everywhere enforcing the various rules of the road.
Meanwhile simple safety features like a safety or requiring x ounces of pressure on the trigger to fire the weapon seem to be a no go in the States as if requiring a safety infringes rights unreasonably.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

No large scale gun ownership makes a society free-er.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[cayenne8]

Yet cars are highly regulated. All kinds of safety features required. Other requirements such as good tires required on the road. Licenses needed.

Cops everywhere enforcing the various rules of the road.

Meanwhile simple safety features like a safety or requiring x ounces of pressure on the trigger to fire the weapon seem to be a no go in the States as if requiring a safety infringes rights unreasonably.

1. Guns are HIGHLY regulated, don't kid yourself there. Guns pass rigorous testing to make sure they are safe, and if something is found (like fires when dropped [the first Sig P320's had a problem if you struck them on the back with a hammer or threw them down hard in just the right way]), these problems are immediately addressed and fixed. I'll grant you some companies (like car companies) are better and faster than others, but they do watch this in a BIG way.

And you ONLY need a car license if you are going to be driving on the public roads IN public. If you only drive your car on private land, or on a private track, then you do not need any sort of license for a car. Same with guns. You do not shoot them willy nilly in public, you either target shoot on private ground, or ranges. If you wish to even CARRY a gun in general public on your person, you do require a Carry Concealed License. Most states have this provision.

2. Same cops are everywhere for gun violations...you fire one off in city limits, they'll be on you quick...And penalties for misuse of a gun are MUCH higher and harsher than most any car law violation. If you do something wrong with a gun on the federal level, easily 10years and many, many, many thousands of dollars fine.

3. Again, all modern weapons have safety features on them. Most all rifles I"ve ever come across have safeties on them. Most handguns do too, the ones that do not have a physical safety button/lever...have other safe features. For instance, some DA/SA handguns (Double actions/Single Action) take a good deal of trigger pressure to fire them double action when you've decocked the hammer. They are not likely to go off by themselves. Many also have firing pin blocks which mean they cannot go off without explicit trigger activation.

Many striker fire pistols, like the Glocks, have an extra dingus (or lever type thing) as part of the trigger mechanism, and cannot be fired unless it is explicitly pulled along with the usual trigger pressure and travel required to fire the weapon. I think you can easily Google for seeing how safe glocks are....I've seen them dragged behind cars on a rope and they don't go off, even bouncing around on the road.

Trust me, if you heard of an inherently unsafe pistol or rifle out on the market, and it has a record of misfires and mishaps, it would be ALL over the news.

But just like with any other complex mechanical device, if a gun defect slips out, much like with cars....there are notifications and recalls sent out.

From the factory, guns have the same type safety records and guards that any other complex, commercial mechanical device does....very analogous to automobiles.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[dryeo]

Good to hear, as others on this site have stated otherwise.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[JesseMcDonald]

A minutes inconvenience (if that, even) is not depriving you of your liberty, unless you decide to escalate the issue.

It is, actually. At least for those few minutes. And the real metric to measure this by is not the few minutes they're claiming on average from those who meekly fall in line, but rather the amount of force they feel justified in using against those who do not.

Re: Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Private ownership of firearms was illegal in Nazi Germany, but don't let historical facts get in the way of your copronanistic rant.

Re: Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

The house would have been stormed by heavily armed troopers and the city would have suffered immensely.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Wulf2k]

"even before we start to look at the circumstances, and find that most people shot by police were in the process of attacking them"

I'm pretty sure the first words following every police shooting were "He was coming right for me", whether justified or not.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Talonius]

"Stop and frisk." Here's a thought for those of you in favor of this: I'm a type 1 diabetic, I carry a syringe and a bottle of insulin in my pocket. Want to guess how many times I've gone to jail for drug paraphernalia? Three.

Twice they've thrown the insulin out (Apidra, costly) because the prescription's on the box, not the bottle.

Fuck you, and the police, if you support that kind of bullshit.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Wulf2k]

It is literally depriving them of their liberty to leave.

What if you're running late for an important appointment, and the cop's having a bad day? Maybe he decides to stretch it out because you didn't show him the proper respect.

Sorry, we're gonna need the drug dogs to come due to your suspicious behaviour. That'll be 30 minutes. Maybe an hour.

Oh geez, the dogs signaled. I'm gonna need to perform a cavity search.

Are you resisting me?

Hands behind your back.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

Let's agree to disagree, I suppose. If a cop stops me and asks how my day is going and if I'm carrying a weapon and I say, "Going good, no, I'm not carrying a weapon" and then we talk about the cold weather for 30 seconds, I personally don't feel that's a violation of my human rights.

That may not be true for you, and that's OK.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Wulf2k]

But losing one freedom never gets you the other freedom, you've simply lost multiple freedoms.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

So I take it you wouldn't mind if said cop were to stop you on the street and say "hand me your cell phone, I want/need to look through it and possibly install monitoring software on it" you would just hand it over and be fine with it? And of course that would include all your passwords/oauth tokens.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do all the drugs come from that are illegally owned though? The drugs which are financing the gangs? Are there illegal drug factories in the US pumping out black market drugs?
Yes. There are. And the drugs are very high quality. And did you forget South America is RIGHT there? There is no reason to think gangs would be unarmed if guns were fully illegal. Manufacturing a firearm is not difficult. An AK only requires metal stamping, plastic injection, and few machined elements. The raw materials are cheap, and the equipment for production isn't prohibitively expensive. In fact, hobbyist firearms enthusiasts regularly make their own firearms (it's legal, you just can't sell your produced guns without licensing).

If you want an idea of what the US would look like with little gang activity, check out the murder rates for NH and VT. Both are right around the European average murder rate (pretty damn low). Both states also have very lax gun laws and high ownership rates. So why aren't people getting shot left and right? Culture. Removing guns to stop murder is treating a symptom at the expense of law abiding citizens.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

Could that happen? Sure. You could also get into a terrible car accident on the way to work. Or maybe your car battery dies unexpectedly. Or maybe even there's a freak storm and you get 2 feet of snow in an hour.

I'm my entire life, I've been stopped maybe 8 times by a cop and 100% of them have been polite and courteous. Maybe I'm an anomaly. Maybe it's Canadian cops. Or maybe I've just been extraordinarily lucky and only the nice, honest cops have stopped me.

I fear there's a lot of pearl clutching going on. No-one will deny there aren't real-life instances of cops abusing their authority but let's not get carried away with the "what ifs". Otherwise we'll end up calling ICE on every non-Caucasian we see.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

^ This guy/girl.

Ontario is currently in the midst of a full-on war against firearms because of shootings in Toronto. The gov't wants to ban handguns and have stirred up the population right good.

Never mind the fact that NO legal, licensed firearm owner has been responsible for the shootings. They're all done by criminals gangs who got their hands on illegal firearms.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[butchersong]

The reason we have the 2nd highest homicide rate in the first world (I'm assuming you're correct about that) has to do with demographics. We have a historically first world European society that prior to the 70s was 90% European heritage but is rapidly being replaced. Ignore wealth and control simply by percentage of each peoples and I think the reasons for this will be very clear.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[butchersong]

I was under the impression that London was seeing record levels of violence. Are you saying that while it hasn't improved and in fact has gotten worse, youth services are working and the problem would be even worse without them? Seems like a lot of overhead necessary to accommodate certain groups new to the UK...

Re:Not sure about Canada

[AmiMoJo]

I'm saying it's bad now because of ten years in underfunding youth services.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[Wulf2k]

Sure, you could get into a car accident. But nobody has the power to guarantee you get into a car accident without repercussions.

Humans are humans, and they'll do humany things.

By giving cops these powers, we are guaranteeing they will be abused. Not in every situation, not by every cop, but if a power exists, it's only a matter of time until it IS abused.

I'm glad you've only run into nice cops. You know what? So have I.

But there mere fact that these powers exist means that everybody's ok with the most sociopathic human being we can imagine getting employed by the police and using these powers against somebody innocent.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[markdavis]

Stop-and-frisk is more than just asking questions, it is laying hands on the person. Questions are bad enough, themselves, if there is no probable cause. There needs to be a presumption of innocence. At least in the USA....

Now, you might feel it is a violation of your rights... and that is fine/OK (just like you said). But it is not OK if one then extends what one feels is OK for themselves to what should be allowed regardinging other people. I don't feel that way, and my point of view is supposedly backed by the Constitution. It is a mental separation that far too few of the population seem to apply. For example, I don't consume alcohol, never have, probably never will. But I am not for making it illegal. I would never get in a car without wearing a seatbelt, but I don't think adults should be compelled to do so with a law. Etc...

Re:Not sure about Canada

[markdavis]

>"But losing one freedom never gets you the other freedom, you've simply lost multiple freedoms."

+1 insightful

Re: Not sure about Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of education, no understanding of personal responsability, economic disparity, a fundamentally lack of respect towards firearms. I'm a gun owner (I own several) and I live in Oerlikon (Zuerich, Switzerland). I go to the range every weekend, participate in shooting contests and I'm a part time instructor. We treat our firearms as sport tools and we follow rules. While I usually shoot at least a hundred rounds (rifle and pistol, sometimes shotgun on private ranges) and I have a carry permit (don't know in the US but here you're held to the same standards as the police and you're examined by cops) the thought of shooting a person sickens me, more so now than when I was in the Swiss Army. Maybe that's the real reason: we ARE (mostly) a well regulated militia.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

Both legal and illegal immigrants in this country commit less crime than its native citizens ( https://www.chicagotribune.com... , https://www.factcheck.org/2018... ). Couple that with the fact that our crime rate peaked in the 80's and is now at a relative post war low ( https://fivethirtyeight.com/fe... ) and it becomes pretty clear that what you're getting at isn't even close to correct.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

Where do you think illegally owned guns come from? They were all legal at some point.

Less legal guns mean less guns that can illegally make their way into criminal's hands.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

They come from the US or having been burgled from homes. Your rationale is the epitome of slippery slope reasoning - by your logic, cars should become illegal because despite being legal the vast majority of the time, they have been used in crimes and therefore the less cars being sold, the less will be used to commit crime.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

"Your rationale is the epitome of slippery slope reasoning - by your logic, cars should become illegal because despite being legal the vast majority of the time, they have been used in crimes and therefore the less cars being sold, the less will be used to commit crime."

That's not by my logic at all, the only slippery slope here is being provided by you. Guns have a single practical function and that is to kill something and in most cases that something is people (hunting rifles being the exception). Spinning my argument on to cars is just you piling up enough shit for yourself to slide down.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

Guns have a single practical function and that is to kill something

Except, you know, for the fact that the overwhelming majority of legal, licensed civilian gun owners in Canada have never so much as harmed another person with a gun, despite having collectively shot more than 15 million rounds. That's 15 million projectiles that could have easily killed a person, yet didn't.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

And yet every single illegally owned fire arm started off as legal so segregating legally owned guns into their own statistic is meaningless.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

Every single car used in a crime started out not being used in the commission of a crime.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

Oh, back to cars. Perhaps I didn't elaborate enough on that point the first time you brought them up. A gun's only purpose is to kill something and in most cases that something is people where as a car is built to move people around. Banning guns for doing what they are designed to do is a completely different conversation from banning a car which is widely used for constructive purposes.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

A gun's only purpose is to kill something and in most cases that something is people

Well, since the overwhelming majority of guns and bullets owned by Canadian civilians have not actually killed a person, it would seem that they are extremely poorly designed for that purpose, would you agree? I mean, there's 15 MILLION firearms in Canada with just over 2.2 million licensed firearm owners. That means each gun owner has around 7 guns on average.

The way you portray it, 15 million firearms in a country of only 37 million should mean an extraordinary number of deaths per yer. If a guns only purpose was to kill someone, 15 million guns should be killing MILLIONs of people in Canada.

Yet, since statistically the needle barely moves on the scale, one of the following is accurate:

1. You're scare mongering because it personally benefits you or the ideology you're pushing 2. You've made a terrible mistake because the facts don't support your theory

You're gonna argue there's a 3rd option. But I can assure you, there is not.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

This is great. First you falsely accuse me of slippery slope reasoning while you literally engage in the act. Then you try to cherry pick your data by only talking about legally owned guns. After that you revisit your own slippery slope of "if guns, why not cars" and now you're accusing me of exaggerating the scale of gun violence and scare mongering when the only extent to which I have even come close to commenting on gun violence is to point out that the US' homicide rate (not even gun violence rate) is twice that of the West's average and that's just a statistical fact.

So what's next, will you again revisit your slippery car slope or will you again just make something up and claim it's been what I've been saying?

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

by only talking about legally owned guns

My ENTIRE position has been that punishing legal, licensed firearm owners for the actions committed by illegal, unlicensed criminals is both unfair and ineffective as a policy. So you shouldn't really be surprised that my stats cover legal firearms owners..

You seem adamant to push your agenda so there's likely no rational explanation that would convince you to re-assess your position so I'll attempt to clarify one last time:

1. Person passes driving test and gets a license. Person buys car. Car is stolen. Car is used in a crime. Cars are not generally used to commit crimes (refer back to my statistics). Therefore cars should not be banned but people using them for illegal purposes should be prosecuted.
2. 1. Person passes firearms test and gets a license. Person buys fire. Firearm is stolen*. Firearm is used in a crime. Firearms are not generally used to commit crimes (refer back to my statistics). Therefore firearms should not be banned but people using them for illegal purposes should be prosecuted.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

*Spelling corrections* 2. Person passes firearms test and gets a license. Person buys firearm. Firearm is stolen. Firearm is used in a crime. Firearms are not generally used to commit crimes (refer back to my statistics). Therefore firearms should not be banned but people using them for illegal purposes should be prosecuted.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[skam240]

"My ENTIRE position has been that punishing legal, licensed firearm owners for the actions committed by illegal, unlicensed criminals is both unfair and ineffective as a policy. So you shouldn't really be surprised that my stats cover legal firearms owners.. "

There are plenty of dangerous things that are outlawed or heavily restricted by government. It's not "punishing" anyone.

"1. Person passes driving test and gets a license. Person buys car. Car is stolen. Car is used in a crime. Cars are not generally used to commit crimes (refer back to my statistics). Therefore cars should not be banned but people using them for illegal purposes should be prosecuted.

2. 1. Person passes firearms test and gets a license. Person buys fire. Firearm is stolen*. Firearm is used in a crime. Firearms are not generally used to commit crimes (refer back to my statistics). Therefore firearms should not be banned but people using them for illegal purposes should be prosecuted."

So it's back to cars and your slippery slope a third time. Repeating myself, cars have massively productive uses outside of the undesirable scenario you describe. Guns on the other hand don't have any other use aside from shooting a person (aside from hunting rifles as I mentioned before). In other words, there is no massive social detriment to be had from having very restrictive gun ownership laws. This can be easily observed in every other Western society.

Re:Not sure about Canada

[froggyjojodaddy]

There are plenty of dangerous things that are outlawed or heavily restricted by government. It's not "punishing" anyone.

If you curtail the ability of someone to pursue something they're interested in, and that person is in no way harming anyone else, then of course you're punishing them. You're taking what is otherwise a lawful, legal right and taking it away because someone else did something.

Guns on the other hand don't have any other use aside from shooting a person

Back to this....More than 15 million guns in Canada and over 100 million rounds expended and not a single person shot. I think that would tell you that the vast majority of gun owners in Canada use their firearms for putting nice little holes in cardboard than people. It's not for you to decide whether or not that's a good use of their money or time. If 100 million of anything doesn't result in a "bad thing", only an irrational person would claim they can only be used for "bad things".

Look, I get it. You're anti-firearm. That's OK, it's entirely your prerogative but at least try to be objective when it comes to hard facts.

Risky Behavior in Canada?

[W. Justice Black]

Insufficient maple syrup
Not being a hockey fan
Disdain for Tim Horton's
Lack of deference to the Corgi-Enthusiast-in-Chief
Not translating everything into French
Moose baiting
Too little gravy in the poutine
Mainlining smoked meat
Kraft Dinner addiction (outside of the norm)
and finally...
Insincere and/or infrequent apologies

Re:Risky Behavior in Canada?

[Mashiki]

Missed a few things, including meth labs, rampant B&E problems, heavy substance abuse issues to start with.

Get's more interesting here in Ontario, because cities are in charge of shelter/low income housing programs. And for instance in the GTA, they're pushing the poor(who are citizens) out of low income and shelters, to give space to 'migrants' and illegals from the US. Wonder why crime is spiking, after all it's only going to be -15C in most of Ontario tonight and we just got ~15cm of snow.

Re:Risky Behavior in Canada?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Disdain for Tim Horton's

This explains my last trip to Canada. I visited a Starbucks and some men in black in a dark corner carefully made note of my purchases and followed me out of the store.

Re:Risky Behavior in Canada?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. We know black men aren't allowed in a Starbucks.

Human Trafficking?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US, prison data is often used for human trafficking operations. There is no reason why this Canadian data wouldn't be used for the same purpose. There are probably other uses of the data that harm the individual, but ideally the data collection would be avoided to avoid creating additional risks for the individuals.

Soviet Russia behavior in

[Anonymous Coward]

Canuckistan?!?!

Say it ain't so!

Just kiddin', par for the course for the west, east, south, and north. Whatever glimmer of freedom and democracy Paine once foresaw, has been dead soon after it was birthed. We've only been going through the obligatory motions since while earning the $$$.

Canada has no free speech and now this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada wake the fuck up your unalienable rights are being flushed down the toilet.

S.C.R.U.B.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once they give this data to the autonomous robot overlords, this place will clean up fast.

Social Credit Score?

[TheZeal0t]

So will this turn into Canada's version of the "Sesame Credit Score"?

RTD == Social Credit Score

[Required Snark]

Who is doing it better, Canada with RTD or China with the social credit score?

So far China seems to be ahead because they have a phone app that lets users know there is a low credit looser nearby. If you hang out too near them you might get infected and be squashed like a bug too.

The US seems to be falling behind. We have all this data on everyone, and the public and private sector data is fused, but it's only Wall Street and law enforcement seem to use it as a permanent non-alterable black mark: no-fly and insane interest rates respectively. When Canada is ahead of the US as a surveillance state it's pathetic.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[bobstreo]

I feel like you have forgotten how important credit scores are in the US.

If you add in "social scores" which I'm pretty sure are accounted for somewhere in your experian/credit karma,,, ratings, you may be a potential future recipient of unknown influences on your ability to make purchases on credit,

I tend to prefer to buy based on my ability to pay in full at the time of the purchase. Especially when I can get a discount for paying in cash.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[Anonymous Coward]

My town is quite the opposite. Banks and shops are discouraging cash by giving much more discounts with credit cards, mobile payments, etc.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[rtb61]

Credit scores, social scores, lets snap back to reality, what to do something real, for every prescribed crime, require a psychological assessment and based upon that, whether or not extended psychological treatment is required to ensure rehabilitation. So being prosecuted for a prescribed crime should ensure proper mental health treatment is provided, to ensure effective rehabilitation and the prevention of the creation of future victims.

Right wing morons cheaped out on proper mental health services and we are all paying the price of the greed of the rich who do not want to pay their fair share, whilst extracting an unfair share from out pockets.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd because the Left wing morons spent too much money on racism, I mean diversity.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[Anonymous Coward]

You almost used all the proper spelling and punctuation except whe n it came to the word 'loser'. Looser is a red flag to automatically discredit anything that someone has said while trying to appear smart on the internet.

Your a loser and you clearly dont understand how, or why canada is trying to tackle memtal health issues using data collection and so you have no opinion here. Your an idiot.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't seen a "cash discount" anywhere in nearly a decade now, seems to be a myth at this point.

Re:RTD == Social Credit Score

[CrimsonAvenger]

lets users know there is a low credit looser nearby.

But what about the low credit tighters, that's what I want to know!

De-identifying? You're doing it wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Interventions can range from a door knock and a chat to forced hospitalization or arrest.

Machine

[Z80a]

So, they're trying to build a crude version of "the machine" from Person of interest?

Re:Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

So, they're trying to build a crude version of "the machine" from Person of interest?

Translation: Once again, they've taken technology from fictional writings and screenplays that were used to numb the masses years ago and put it into society?

Orwell's 1984, Minority Report, and Person of Interest are but a few examples showcasing the fact that we've been predicting this for over half a century now. Unfortunately, we shouldn't be surprised when the end result of AI development is Cyberdyne Systems and Skynet. A sitting US President issued a warning to the world about the rise of the Military Industrial Complex, which the end result was the largest Military Industrial Complex in the known universe. We seem to be pretty fucking good at ignoring warning signs, so don't assume Common F. Sense has a say in this.

Re:Machine

[dheltzel]

That was my first reaction too when I read the synopsis.
Sorry, but I never have mod points when I really need them, or I would mark this insightful (because you are thinking like I am)

Re:Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that we ignore warnings. Quite the contrary. As a nation the United States is like an angst filled teenager. Someone gives us a warning and we go, "OH YEAH?! WELL WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT!?" and then rush headlong as fast as we can towards whatever it was we were warned about. I don't know if that's a leadership decision, a population decision, or a "puppet masters" decision, but it seems to be true way too often to be coincidence.

Scrubbing the data of identifing

[oldgraybeard]

information related to events, who, where sure seems to me, to damage the usefulness of said information. So what are they saying their plan is?
Collect useful information then modify the raw data until it is useless and that is a productive thing to do.

mmm I wonder if they are keeping everything, then trying to pass the collection off as safe! Seems to do otherwise is a waste of time.

Minority Report and Pre Crime here we come ;)

Just my 2 cents ;)

Re:Scrubbing the data of identifing

[Anonymous Coward]

^this


"We detect with our detectors and statistics that you are likely to harm yourself or others soon; please come with us...

Re:Ford Still Stealing, Effect On Crime Debatable

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of crime? Misdemeanor drug possession? Oh THATS important work by the Toronto Police FO SHO!
Don't worry about that Billionaire BigPharma husband & wife tortured and killed in their home over a year ago. Toronto Police have that murder-suicide all wrapped up!
Don't worry about that serial killer stalking and killing gay men.. he doesn't exist, the Toronto Police have repeatedly told us so!
Don't worry about the Ford government's massive fraud. S'all good man.

Re: That's Not How Anything Works In Canada

[Mashiki]

I know it's hard to separate what you hear on Fauxnews with reality but what you're describing is pure fantasy entirely of your own delusional state. SAD.
They should put you on a psych hold.. oh wait, it's not the USA!

Imagine being so stupid, that you don't know that's exactly how it works in Canada. Why don't you go make a visit to a court room monday morning, and you can go see the hold in temp-psych ward cases from Fri/Sat rolling in. I'll even give you some help, London, Ontario.

It is so much fun when seeing US people think...

[MikeTheBike]

You know that the US of A stops at the border, right?

What you think of other countries are at most an opinion that the rest of the world couldn't care less about.

We've chosen systems that work, like this Canadian system, based solely on how bad the US handles itself.

It is like seeing that poor drunk uncle that always makes a fool of himself at every party trying to convince someone that he hasn't a drinking problem and if just he could run everything it would all be so much better.

Well... NO!

Re:Ford Still Stealing, Effect On Crime Debatable

[Mashiki]

Well you either showed yourself as an idiot that doesn't live in Canada, or are an idiot living in Canada. First, Canada doesn't have misdemeanors. Second, that case isn't closed. Third, don't forget the 'indigenous women' being killed and the federal investigative committee coming to the same conclusion as the previous one, that the vast majority of cases those women were killed by other natives. And in both cases, the media and Federal government went very quiet. And last but not least, having a fundraiser where people pay isn't fraud. But if you think it is, just remember that it was the previous government(Liberals) that changed that law including removing ALL donation limits, the current government changed the maximum allowable donations per-person to $1250 at a fundraising event. And the previous government illegally destroyed documents on the NG power plant, covered it up, and then did the same thing with ORNGE and had actual closed door pay-for-access fundraisers where people were required to sign a NDA, and the press were bared from. Maybe you can tell everyone about the SNC-Laval scandal going on, can't wait for you to start defending Trudeau on it.

Don't quit your day job, but if you do and keep posting? I'll enjoy you making a further idiot out of yourself.

Not the tech, anything but the tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no people trying to solve real problems with technology that makes me sad.

Re:Or maybe the aboriginals are...

[Anonymous Coward]

No they kill each other mostly.

Scrubbed personal info vs Door knock

[Anonymous Coward]

So how in hell do you do an anonymized Door Knock?

The police go out and knock on every door in the city: Excuse me, can I please talk to Mr/Ms Anonymous, he/she/it may be at risk of something or other...

This is obvious transparent BS and exemplifies the growth of the Nanny State.

Oh Canada...

[Kokuyo]

When I spent 3 months in Toronto in 98, Canada was the better USA. American way of life without much of the negatives...

And today Canada seems to be on the forefront of much that I despise.

Sure, I've gotten way more conservative over the years... But I don't remember it being THAT leftist back then.

I'm yearning for balance becoming the political agenda du jour but looking back in history, if it ever was a thing, it will likely take benevolent dictatorahip.

And who wants to take those odds?

Re: Oh Canada...

[c6gunner]

Sure, I've gotten way more conservative over the years... But I don't remember it being THAT leftist back then.

It wasn't, but neither was the USA. Both have slid to the left since then.

Re:Oh Canada...

[skam240]

"I'm yearning for balance becoming the political agenda du jour but looking back in history, if it ever was a thing, it will likely take benevolent dictatorahip."

Generally speaking a Democracy is, by its very nature, a balance of the ideologies of its people. If Americans weren't more Leftist today then they were 30 years ago then political figures like Bernie wouldn't be relevant because no one would care what he was saying

Also, the whole surveillance state thing, at least in the US, is hardly exclusively backed by the Left. In fact, many of our "right" are staunch supporters of the NSA and its domestic spying.

Re:Oh Canada...

[LordAba]

Also, the whole surveillance state thing, at least in the US, is hardly exclusively backed by the Left. In fact, many of our "right" are staunch supporters of the NSA and its domestic spying.

It's horseshoe theory at work; the more radical the group the more authoritarian they are. Doesn't matter if it is the left or the right.

The right, at least in the US, has had religion. The left was more individual. This shifted a bit when libertarians/tea party people divided the right and intersectionalism (which is communism where privilege replaces class) invaded the left. The irony is both the extreme right and extreme left are vocal minorities...

The far was always fringe... infowar versus the young turks. As long as the main stream news have learned from Covenington and Jussie Smollett at least... though I doubt they have yet.

Re:Oh Canada...

[Anonymous Coward]

The loud minority tends to appear in the media more than the silent majority in Canada. Most people just want to have a decent life and get along all while avoiding the people shouting around the university campuses.

Loads of us just want to live in peace and don't really get into politics too heavily. (Though if you watch CNN on cable, you're as brainwashable as anybody else is...)

Police In Canada Are Tracking People's 'Negative'

[grep -v '.*' *]

I identify as an electron and I object to this racist and blatant tracking offense. It's almost like they want to know where I'm going.

Jokes on them, though, I turn into a wave when they're not looking.

So, seems like they're watching "people of interest", where interest is defined as how upset you are. Isn't this what they're supposed to be doing? Just asking.

Well hello, Social Credit ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Taking a page from China, I see, o liberal western democracy?

Re:Well hello, Social Credit ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha world is full of suckers who don't know the difference between 'liberal democracy' and "liberal democracy"

But when China does it...

[Anonymous Coward]

then we make headlines about police state and human rights crimes. It's not a crime if WE do it. The hypocrisy and dishonesty of the Western world.

Re: It is so much fun when seeing US people think.

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, you're not even a real country anyway.

Second, you and your creepy U.K. father can't shit the fuck up about the U.S., ever. So go fuck yourself, hoser.

I'm on this list

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to Morocco and the RCMP thinks I joined ISIS, I had 2 interviews. I feel victimized. I could have said no ofc, but I was totally caught of guard and confused. Stunned really. It makes me feel really bad that my government thinks this of me. I don't believe in Canada anymore.

Such is life as a simple introvert who don't party and has no friends.

*disclaimer I might just be on a federal list and in an interpol database.

whats all the fuss about?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this how the system is supposed to work? Common, even AI knows this:
"As a country, we can't allow ourselves to be divided. We have to work together — against each other."

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/twenty-minutes-into-the-future-with-openais-deep-fake-text-ai/2/

Re:Police In Canada Are Tracking People's 'Negativ

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound upset - we will be keeping an eye on you.

Naughty or nice?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a social score which improves for serving your overlords unquestionably?

Mod Parent Up !

[Anonymous Coward]

then we make headlines about police state and human rights crimes. It's not a crime if WE do it. The hypocrisy and dishonesty of the Western world.

Hypocrisy? Of course not !

We are hot hypocrites, are we?

Re:Mod Parent Up !

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

China is building a Black Mirror-like social citizen rating that will deny you not just loans and bank accounts, but riding the bus and so on, if your Good Little Communist rating goes down too much.

They are piloting this for the dictatorship in Venezuela right now.

Meanwhile companies in the US, and the security agencies, are robo-building AI models of you to predict behavior. Do you think this is all anonymized and well-tracked (in the case of agencies) to prevent abuse by spying on political opponents?

rubadub

[Anonymous Coward]

In soviet Canuckistan, data crunches you.

Fair Enough

[johnsie]

If people are putting their personal shit out there then it's their own fault.

Canada and the UK are especially vunerable

[Anonymous Coward]

.. to the dystopian police state because they both care about appearances and etiquette so much.

Databases...

[CoreDreamStudios]

Hmm... now I need to make one for politicians and enforcement time to purchase a scaleable platform. If they think it's okay to do it to us, I can do it to them too :-)

Re:Databases...

[Anonymous Coward]

A hacker invaded the privacy of hard working Canadians and stole private data thereby breaking multiple laws with prescribed penalty of minimum 20 years of federal pound me in the ass prison. Police are looking for dangerous criminal, goes by the slashdot handle 'CoreDreamStudios'. Any information leading to detainment of said individual will be rewarded.

Long live the liberal democracy!

rtb61 supports killing babies?

[Anonymous Coward]

The DNC in the Senate just voted to keep killing live born babies legal. No, I did not type that wrong.
While Trump is working on preventing nuclear war, the DNC in the house was asking about videos of hookers peeing on beds and of Trump beating his wife in an elevator, WHILE Trump was working to avert a future nuclear war.
In addition, the DNC is supporting a KKK member as Gov of VA and a serial rapist as Lt. Gov of VA.

I think you have a long way to go before you can call the Right wing morons. Look in the mirror you racist baby killer.

Draft Board

[Anonymous Coward]

In the 50/60's in the USofA they called this the local military draft board.

Canada is forfeit

[Anonymous Coward]

It's time to start thinking of how you can prevent the perversion of government and overreach of Canada 2, all is lost at this point as there is no backtracking on this.

Start thinking of how you can keep a contained government for the next iteration.

Re:Canada is forfeit

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. The key is standards of law enforcement. Without them, democracy is meaningless.

Re:Canada is forfeit

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Without them, freedom is meaningless because it doesn't exist.

Freedom is the key power of the West. Democracy is its servant, and a means to that end. Democracy is not the end itself.

Re:Canada is forfeit

[Anonymous Coward]

The constitution are freedom are key. The government could be anything. As long as its restricted to the bare minimum.

The trouble with the mentally ill

[rsilvergun]

at least in my experience is that they're like a time bomb waiting to go off.

Having known and grown up with several mentally ill folk (the real kind, diagnosed schizophrenics and the like) they're not crazy 24/7. They go through months of lucidity and then have "episodes" of crazy for several weeks/months.

What's especially tough is that during the lucid times they know and understand what they did while they were in crazy town. So they go out of their way to hide the signs of problems because, well, what else can they do?

Folks see them and assume they're faking because of the lucid periods. That's the real problem. It makes it real easy to talk about pulling social services from them because why should I have to pay for somebody who's sane to have a place to live? Never mind that for two months out of the year their batshit crazy and can't do a thing about it and they wreck everything around them.

I hate to say this, but I've learned to stay away from them. Like I said, during the crazy times they wreck everything. They're a disaster waiting to happen. It's messed up, but I'm not in a position where I can do anything about it. I know somebody who has made mid 6 figures his whole life and deals with somebody like this and he barely makes it.

Re:The trouble with the mentally ill

[Anonymous Coward]

There's the rub. Ultimately, you have to have money to pay other people who will look after them when those crazy periods start, it's impossible to do alone or without a shitload of money.

I feel for you, man.

Got any stats to back up Stop and Frisk?

[rsilvergun]

Because the research I've seen says it's worthless. And like just about everywhere else Toronto's crime rate is going down. 2005 seemed to be the peak.

Stop and Frisk in the States is mostly used to keep undesirables (read: the poor) out of your neighborhood. It's also used as a segregation technique in large parts of the South. That's why we shot it down. Not sure about Canada though.

EXPERIENCING homelessness?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who experiences homelessness, exactly? Would it be, could it be... is it... THE HOMELESS?!?

Christ on a crooked cross... this weasel word politically correct bullshit has people trying to talk their way around a problem rather than fucking facing it. I do NOT ever want to hear one of these fuckers complain about stepping in a quantity of semi-solid, post-consumption, processed canine sustenance. That is just dog shit, so call it what it fucking is.

Re: That's Not How Anything Works In Canada

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

His wasn't a serious comment. There is a concerted effort from...somewhere...to dissuade thoughtful participation by posting rude responses that address almost nothing.

Slashdot should look into it. This is worse than typical outrage trolling designed to elicit clicks and responses to increase ad views.

Re: Ford Still Stealing, Effect On Crime Debatable

[ravikumarclub2017]

Must visit this website Www.delhigigolo.ga

we have them beat in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US Eric Snowden revealed the intel agencies are sifting through all our emails like a database.

And the IRS helps keep track of what people's political views are so they can audit them and provide dirt to other agencies.

Meanwhile the SEC was downloading red light content on their computers when Enron was frauding the economy into the ground.

The only time the "system works" is when civilians on airplanes jump on jihadists with failed underwear bombs.

I can see this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Voted against separating Quebec from Canada? Flagged for negativity.
Refused a super-sized fries at McDonald's? Flagged for negativity.
Refused to be tracked by negativity database? Flagged for negativity. ...

This is disturbing...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is really bad news for society. Big Brother is now bigger and worse than anyone could imagine that it could have been. Within the next 100 years the Nazis will look tame to the governments that evolve from this and other tech.

Re: American Exceptionalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Sooooo exceptional you cant do what Norway does. Topkek!

Re: We Get It Your Cock Is Tiny

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus. Get over it. Your people killing weapon DOES NOT make you free you fucking mong.

Re: Free-r to Get Shot

[Anonymous Coward]

Or kill their friends and family. SO FREE!

Correlation != causation

[Anubis350]

Correlation != causation, have some citations that Stop and Frisk was actually the driver of the reduction in crime and not other contemporaneous factors?

China and Canada hanging out

[TimMD909]

So you got a social credit 1984 thing going on there, eh? Hold my Molson, buddy...

For example

[sjames]

28 February 2019 9:35 A.M. "Doug" bumped into a lamp post. Did NOT say "sorry". Suspected American infiltrator.

I think they misspelled China

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you mean China?
--
WindBourne

So. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

is this the polite version of China's social merit system?

Police, social workers, health care workers using

[TerenceLove]

This story about the Hub model is the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg of a very intentional and elaborate program extending far beyond the agencies named here. All people really have to do is open their eyes and ears to the right things, and close them to the wrong things. But it's only happening because the rest of us have allowed it to. Really, if identifying someone to be "at risk" of being a danger to self or others gives these people some legal avenue to do this to other people, then there is every reason to apply such legalities and initiatives to them. I can think of many good reasons why police, social workers, and health care workers on agenda's like this are a danger to themselves and others. I think they're all "at risk" of pushing these agenda's to suit themselves with no regard to how it's detrimental to everyone.