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U.S. Students Have Achieved World Domination in Computer Science Skills -- For Now (ieee.org)
When it comes to computer science skills, U.S. students approaching graduation have a significant advantage over their peers in China, India, and Russia. Tekla Perry shares a report: That's the conclusion of a study published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. The study was put together by a global team of researchers led by Prashant Loyalka, an assistant professor at Stanford University. The team constructed a careful sampling mechanism to select senior (typically fourth year) computer science or equivalent students in each of the four countries, making sure that both the educational institutions and students enrolled at those schools were statistically representative of schools and computer science students throughout the respective nations. The sampling also ensured that study participants represented both elite and non-elite universities.
The final selection included 6847 students from the U.S., 678 from China, 364 from India, and 551 from Russia. Once the students were selected, the researchers then administered the Major Field Test in Computer Science, an exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service and is regularly updated. The exam was translated for the students in China and Russia. When the researchers tabulated the results, the U.S. students came out ahead in every category. U.S. seniors outperformed their peers overall; students from elite U.S. schools outclassed their counterparts at the other countries' elite institutions; and the same was true for students at non-elite universities. (The differences among the scores of students in China, India, and Russia were not statistically significant, the researchers indicated.)
The final selection included 6847 students from the U.S., 678 from China, 364 from India, and 551 from Russia. Once the students were selected, the researchers then administered the Major Field Test in Computer Science, an exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service and is regularly updated. The exam was translated for the students in China and Russia. When the researchers tabulated the results, the U.S. students came out ahead in every category. U.S. seniors outperformed their peers overall; students from elite U.S. schools outclassed their counterparts at the other countries' elite institutions; and the same was true for students at non-elite universities. (The differences among the scores of students in China, India, and Russia were not statistically significant, the researchers indicated.)
If US students have achieved world domination, why are there such a high demand for H1-B Visa's?
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
Shouldn't they also test how everyone passes Russian, Indian and Chinese tests ?
Because maybe US program is aligned with US tests.
Something tells me a study put together by academics may not match real-world effectiveness. Skills related to teamwork social dynamics, understanding the business domain, and communication often have at least as big an impact as raw academic prowess, especially early in one's career where one has to pretty much shuddup and do what the boss asks.
Table-ized A.I.
The team constructed a careful sampling mechanism to select senior (typically fourth year) computer science or equivalent students in each of the four countries, ... The final selection included 6847 students from the U.S., 678 from China, 364 from India, and 551 from Russia.
By the typical fourth year (or equivalent) the US students were still in school while the Chinese students were hacking US companies, the Indian students were answering US help-desk calls and the Russian students were hacking US elections... Be sure to statistically adjust for that.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Part of the reason is "combo matching". Look at a typical IT job ad: it will have a list of "required" skills, tools, and versions that a particular company happened to pick for themselves. The chance of any one individual matching that list as-is is statistically pretty small.
But if HR can shop the world, the chance of a statistical fit goes up. Whether that's a rational way to pick a tech worker or not is moot, it's the way HR/recruiters typically think.
There are other reasons for the popularity of H1B visas in corporations, but combo-matching is one not directly related to salary, culture, ageism, or politics.
Table-ized A.I.
It's good to be number one in something.
It is not just computer science.
America also won the International Math Olympiad, beating out the Chinese.
Here is a photo of the American team.
Superficially, this would appear to have a significant degree of bias and I'm left wondering what's the point. For starters it used a test developed in the US as its starting point. It would be expected that students from the US would already be somewhat familiar with the test and associated methodology whereas the other students wouldn't. Also teaching tends to become skewed towards common testing regimes, so it is likely that the material being covered in the US is more relevant to the tests than other countries. I suspect that with a minor tweak to the content of other schools this alleged advantage will disappear.
Also the definition of world is just a tad skewed... why not say the best of 4 countries tested out of 195 countries.
Oblig i think?
Gently reply
The summary does say the exam was translated. There's a set of example questions for the exam available online from the group that creates the test: https://www.ets.org/Media/Tests/MFT/pdf/mft_samp_questions_compsci.pdf
In looking at some of the questions, it doesn't appear as though there should be any cultural barrier, unless they don't have stacks in Russia or recursion in China or some such nonsense. Maybe you could argue that the test is designed with the assumption that the ACM or IEEE curriculum guides are followed, but those aren't just some standard for or set by the U.S., though they may be more likely to follow it.
I won't assume that the U.S. has better students, or we'd be kicking ass in other fields as well, unless all of the really smart kids are going into CS, whereas this isn't the case in other countries. There's probably a very good explanation for the results, but I don't believe that it's a result of the test design. The U.S. is generally recognized as having some of the world's best universities. It's entirely possible that this is especially true of computer science. Maybe the standards are higher and the weaker students are culled before their fourth year. It could be a lot of things, but I doubt culture or language barrier is one of them.
I wouldn't put much stock into your common on hacking either. The reasons for that have more to do with economics and law enforcement than anything else. The authorities in Russia won't give a fuck if someone there is scamming wealthy Americans or Europeans. The same isn't true for people within those countries (and they're much easier to arrest if operating within their own country) and there's less financial incentive to try hacking people in a country a lot less well off than your own.
Bill, you gotta tell me if this is a joke. If it's real, my math professor wife is going to get a kick out of it.
However, she has said that in the past 2 years, she's seen an improvement in the quality of the non-Asian American students. They seem to be better prepared, but that's just anecdote. I was talking to a high-school teacher who said they're trying to teach math more like other places in the world. For example, instead of making Calculus a semester-long course, with Calc I, II, etc, they're teaching it more simply as a set of tools that you look up when you need them. So, they give it several weeks during other math courses and that's it. A lot of kids get hung up on Calculus and if they could just get through it and move on, they'd be better off.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I'll assume you're being somewhat flippant with that example. Just because someone is American doesn't mean that they're of European descent, but all you're really saying is that our students of Asian descent are better than China's students of Asian descent. The U.S. has some world-class Olympic sprinters as well, but they're not going to be of Asian descent. As a country we're reasonably good at most things because we've got people from everywhere and people from everywhere want to come to the U.S. for a variety of reasons.
No, it's the 11th. HOWEVER: the top 9 are all tiny Pacific island nations like Samoa or Tonga where they typically get very big, but because of the type of diet they still stay pretty healthy. Have you noticed how many NFL linemen are from Samoa or Tonga or Cook Islands? Guys that look like big fatsos but can do a standing jump onto a table and dunk a basketball and run a 40-yd dash in the 5's.
Here is the list of the most obese nations. You will see that among industrialized nations, United States is first. You could argue that Kuwait is fat because they're all rich royalty and probably just sit and stuff themselves all day. Unlike Americans, who are not rich royalty, and probably just sit and stuff themselves all day.
Here is the list for those of you who really want to deny that the US is very close to the fattest nation on earth.
http://worldpopulationreview.c...
You are welcome on my lawn.
Bill, you gotta tell me if this is a joke. If it's real, my math professor wife is going to get a kick out of it.
I don't know if the photo is legitimate or not. My daughter (half Asian, and very mathematically capable) forwarded it to me.
If a photo is funny enough, does it matter if it is true?
instead of making Calculus a semester-long course, with Calc I, II, etc, they're teaching it more simply as a set of tool
This is much better than the normal "theory first" method. When you start with limits and infinitesimals, the students get confused and lose interest, because they don't see where it is headed. It is also historically inaccurate, because that is NOT how calculus was developed. Both Newton and Leibniz developed calculus as a tool, and the rigorous theory didn't come until a century later.
Most students in a calculus class are going to be scientists and engineers, not mathematicians. They have no need to learn the theory. If they are really interested, they can learn it in a more advanced course, or from self-study.
Mathematicians often make poor math teachers.
Throw out all of the tiny island nations that are in front of us because Pacific Islanders are genetically not built for the kind of diet outside of what they were historically limited to and the U.S. tops the list, or is a close second to Mexico.
The U.S. is a wealthy and prosperous nation, but we've spent too much of that on white powder that's bad for us, whether that's sugar or cocaine, and it's lead to a lot of detrimental effects.
Then why do we need all those highly skilled H-1Bs?? If US students are the most skilled in the world, then other countries should be begging for them. America should not be wanting for highly trained computer specialists.
In fact doesn't this undermine the whole H-1B concept?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Brazil. I miss anything? ;)
Most of the gifted real world engineers seem to be doing programming contests than get into theoretical computer science, which is what this test is.
This looks like a biased sample to me - and one not leading to a practical consequence.
The CS dept of my local university is filled with folks on visas. They go to school while also working for a company that sponsored them. It lets the company do an end run around H1-B limits because they're not "work" visas they're "student" visas. The "students" already know the material (they were trained overseas) so they can keep up with a full time job + school.
It kinda sucks. It displaces an American student and a job...
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France has the most chefs with Michelin stars, so why do new Chinese and kebab restaurants keep opening up?
They have no need to learn the theory.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, or teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime?
While I don't derive the fundamental theorem of calculus on a daily basis I do understand it. It feels odd when I'm explaining why the area of a rectangle is width * height; and I suddenly remember I could explain this with calculus as a step function between 0 and width with a constant value of height. I've also used Picards theorem to write a quick and dirty square root function in assembly on a lowly 8086 processor with no co-processing ability, all because I understood the theory.
Nothing of any consequence. You got everybody. U.S. and BRIC countries.
Eh. Entire field of computer science is "U.S.-designed exam". Try coding in any computer language other than straight machine code without some understanding of English. It helps to be the people who built the playing field, when you want to dominate the playing field.
Loyalka and his colleagues also looked at the difference in scores between the men and women in the sample. In every country, the men came out ahead...
Boundary value problems and initial value problems have plenty of real world applications.
So knowing Picard's Theorem is not an example of focusing on theory.
A better example would be teaching the students how to prove the theorem, rather than teaching them how to use the theorem to solve problems.
https://youtu.be/GEpJdHS1pV0
Well, I don't think the US can really claim top spot in lying to itself. It is in one of the leading positions though.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Wow - a "global team of researchers [from] Stanford" found that US students did better on a US test, and it didn't cross their mind that maybe the test was biased towards the US curriculum...
Naa, that does not happen. For example, the IQ tests that were given to black people in Africa and were written in English and required US cultural knowledge really proved these people are complete morons! The test is always right! After all, it results in solid numbers that cannot be misinterpreted! Higher is always superior!
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
You don't say.
For instance Google Code Jam". A contest in English, from the US. Between 2003 and 2018, 45 persons won the 1st, 2nd or 3rd place. Among the 45, only 3 are Americans...
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
I'm not sure what year your photo is supposed to be from, but a photo of the actual U.S. team in the 2018 International Mathematical Olympiad, led by coach Po-Shen Loh, leads one to a similar conclusion.
https://www.cmu.edu/news/stori...
It's fake news. Here is an article with a better photo of the whole team: https://www.cmu.edu/news/stori...
As you can see, the team is more diverse than your image suggests.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Could be a simple case of designing a test to reflect the local curriculum in the USA, or a case of problematic translation.
The test would have a lot more validity if it would have been designed by a joint committee of the universities involved, and then written in their respective native languages (not translated)
"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, or teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime?"
True, but I don't need to know how to prove that 2x2=4 to make a lifetime of use of the fact. If I accept that it's a fact and memorize my multiplication tables, I can fish for a lifetime without ever knowing how my rod and reel were made.
Just another day in Paradise
US says US is best!
Russia, China, India is probably saying the same about themselves.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
American universities attract a lot of foreign students. Are we looking at a comparison of CS skills or educational institutions?
I've hired Indians and Americans for some jobs. I always found that the quality of the Indian code was better.
Interesting how you posted exactly the same link as me, but came to exactly the opposite conclusion from it.
The photo shows a racially diverse group. White, south Asian, east Asian... Only one woman though.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I can fish for a lifetime without ever knowing how my rod and reel were made.
Until the reel breaks and you have use your hands to pull in the line, cutting up your hands. Or until the line breaks and you don't know how to re-thread the line.
And you do know how to prove 2x2=4, you just don't think about it that way. Ie, 2 sets of 2 items = 4 items. Unless you just blindly see every 2x2 and replace it with 4 you do understand the concept.
You need to get out more often. I can get a new one at about ten different stores in my neighborhood. And when is the "x" going to break?
Just another day in Paradise
Depends. A run-of-the mill US degree is basically not worth the paper it is printed on. An IIT bachelor is just as good as one from a major US tech institution (there are not many), maybe better. A master's or PhD is not, IIT sucks above bachelor. For China it is the politics that prevent teaching of some things and the cultural problems of collectivism. No connection to intelligence. Takes some to see that though and "patriots" are always at the bottom end of the intelligence scale, because to be one you have to ignore a lot of blatantly obvious things.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Seems very odd that the only statistically significant difference was between the native speakers of the test designer's native language and the non-native speakers - China/Russia/India had no significant difference from each other.
Leads me to believe that maybe whoever was translating the test wasn't using the same idioms and figurative language that native speakers of Mandarin/Russian/Hindi would use.
But have a look at https://pcmbtoday.com/ for practice tests for students aspiring to get into top top STEM universities in India. How many in US could make it?
Of course, one could argue that the US system produces more billionaires.