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Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 Day Before Deadly Crash (bloomberg.com)

As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit. Bloomberg reports: That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia's investigation. The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.

The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster while the others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn't contained in Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee's Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn't previously been reported. The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.
Further reading: Flawed Analysis, Failed Oversight: How Boeing, FAA Certified the Suspect 737 MAX Flight Control System.

31 of 353 comments (clear)

  1. So, pilot error? by OffTheLip · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is this a 737 Max 8 problem or a training problem?

    1. Re:So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes.

    2. Re:So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Is this a 737 Max 8 problem or a training problem?

      It seems like all of the above. If you have a bad problem the day before that the main pilots didn't know how to solve and you continued flying those aircraft without making damn sure all the rest of your pilots knew how to solve it, then that's just wrong.

    3. Re:So, pilot error? by doug141 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's both. They made a frankenstein plane that needs extra special training to not die, and failed to adequately train the people who would be flying them.

    4. Re:So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I am a pilot although not type rated in 737. This is a pilot training issue primarily. Secondary there appears to be a failure to fully explain the behavior of the new MCAS trim mode so it can be differentiated from runaway trim. The response to the problem would be the same as runaway trim, turn off trim power, re-trim the aircraft manually. Indication of this new MCAS trim problem is almost identical to runaway trim. The difference is MCAS runs briefly and will repeat until it reaches its limit, whereas runaway trim will run continuously until it hits the stops. Turning off trim and manually re-trimming restores normal flight control in both cases.

    5. Re:So, pilot error? by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Based on what I've heard so far it strikes me as a marginal design (at best), coupled with inadequate training on how to work with that marginal design to stay safe.

      But this now adds a third layer: inadequate reporting by the pilots and/or resolution by the airline of a known severe problem, which allowed the plane to continue in service and experience the second failure. That's particularly over the top for those of us who routinely sit on the tarmac for hours while the airline tries to scrape up a technician to come in and change something as minor as an exit sign lightbulb.

    6. Re: So, pilot error? by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair (at least as fair as possible given the circumstances), while the plane design is certainly Boeing's fault, the training issue is not.

      Some have said (including in a response to one of my comments) that Boeing didn't share the information until after the first crash...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re: So, pilot error? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Boeing specifically and purposely left any mention of the new systems out of the difference training course that is required to be certified to fly the new 737.

    8. Re: So, pilot error? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Boeing intentionally [re]worded parts of how the system behaves so that the "FAA" (themselves) wouldn't have to recertify.

      Aerospace has a huge recycling problem where once something is certified they'll just reuse it as "COTS" (commercial off the shelf) so that they don't have to recert.

      It also leads to incredibly stupid decisions that are more political than engineering.

      I just ditched a gig at a Tier1 vendor because they picked a Coldfire (68k) processor because it was "in production". They had no dev boards. They can't find dev boards. But the whole project was stuck with the decision because of politics that happened far away from where I was.

    9. Re:So, pilot error? by bobbied · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes.

      Boeing is guilty for using a single sensor for a critical flight function.

      Um.. Not really.. Boeing is guilty of being a bit short sighted about the failure modes of the MCAS and not effectively communicating critical information to anybody, the pilots, their trainers, and likely the certification inspectors.

      This story shows that the aircraft is fully airworthy without the MCAS system functioning. You don't need it to control the aircraft, it's just there to "help" and you can turn it off if you correctly diagnose the issue and pull the right breaker.

      The problem Boeing caused here is not fielding a faulty aircraft, but not communicating the necessary safety information to flight crews, maintenance personnel, and authorities. They didn't tell pilots about this system, what it does, what happens if it fails and how to disable it. It simply wasn't in the pilot's manual, didn't make it into the training process. They didn't tell the maintenance folks so they could diagnose the faulty AOA sensor correctly and return the system to full functionality.. AND Most damaging, Boeing didn't tell the certification authorities about this new feature so they could be sure all the interested parties, pilots, trainers, and maintenance where apprised of the system, knew how to use it, bypass it and repair it. THAT is what's on Boeing here.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No.

      If you depend on some knowledge that's both obscure to pilots, and hidden from them by Boeing, that is not a "training problem".

      "Your car is going to suffer a deadly crash unless you know how to disable some system that GM did not tell you about, while in the midst of trying to deal with an uncontrollable car, and you were intentionally prevented from even knowing that system exists."

      Sorry. No. Just no.

    11. Re:So, pilot error? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be that as it may, why the fuck would you put the plane and crew back in the air the next day without an investigation? As soon as this irregularity occurred, the plane and crew should have been grounded. Determining the cause, the response, and the obvious (not likely, but observable without projecting other possibilities) outcome without the irregular situation which corrected the issue, an immediate action would become visible.

      That action may be preventative (fix the problem) or contingency (ensure all pilots have training for familiarity with the situation and its appropriate response).

      When an irregularity occurs as such, you immediately don't know that the individual plane is unsafe. You may discover by investigation that the entire fleet is unsafe; but you don't know if the plane or its pilots are unique to the failure. You ground that whole damned set of factors, examine the situation, quickly identify the contributing parameters, and decide if you need to ground all planes, issue new training, or just deal with the specific set involved.

      That's just basic risk management. It has nothing to do with airplanes.

    12. Re:So, pilot error? by ArchieBunker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thats like one specific model of car jerking the wheel into oncoming traffic for no reason. Completely unacceptable.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    13. Re: So, pilot error? by Type44Q · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They didn't tell pilots about this system, what it does, what happens if it fails and how to disable it. It simply wasn't in the pilot's manual, didn't make it into the training process.

      How did the dead-head Lion Air pilot know how to save the plane??

    14. Re: So, pilot error? by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't believe it and I don't really want it to happen. Killing the company would be like saying NASA should have been killed after Challenger.

      A better response to both, which keeps us flying and fixes future fuckups, is to hold the people who authorized bypassing such reasonable procedures criminally liable.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    15. Re:So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a checklist the pilots were supposed to know and follow in response to this emergency situation. The pilots didn't know, or at least, didn't follow the checklist (training problem) and crashed.

      Many things can go wrong during flight. It is a pilot's job to know and follow the checklists when one exists for a situation. Flying is all about checklists.

      With that said, having to perform emergency procedures should not be a standard part of flying a particular plane model (737 Max 8 problem).

    16. Re:So, pilot error? by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative
      The plane doesn't exactly need extra special training. People need to understand that similarity to older systems (backwards compatibility) is not always a good thing. It can also be a detriment when it causes people to assume things in the new system work the same as they did in the old system. According to TFA, the procedure the pilot used used to clear the problem is actually in Boeing's 737 Max checklist (steps the pilots are supposed to take when a problem occurs - like your ISP has you unplug and plug in your network cables, power cycle your cable modem,etc.)

      The so-called dead-head pilot on the flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor in the trim system that was driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.

      Unfortunately, because of the similarity of the 737 Max to the older 737, two aircrews apparently assumed the new plane operated the same as the old one, and they apparently didn't follow the new checklist (likely didn't realize the new checklist differed) to clear up the problem. Resulting in two plane crashes. That would make it a training problem. But culpability still falls upon Boeing for not making it clear enough to pilots that the system had changed, and for designing a sensor which fails frequently enough to cause multiple incidents in only months of operation, and for designing a flight system which made it so difficult for the pilots to override a malfunctioning automated system.

    17. Re:So, pilot error? by geoskd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Um.. Not really.. Boeing is guilty of being a bit short sighted about the failure modes of the MCAS and not effectively communicating critical information to anybody, the pilots, their trainers, and likely the certification inspectors.

      Boeing is absolutely guilty for using a single point of failure.

      The number one rule for safety critical systems is: Never, ever, EVER have a single point of failure in a safety critical system. That is why commercial planes have THREE hydraulic systems, two people in the cockpit, at least two engines, multiple fuel tanks and fuel pumps, etc. Anything that can affect the control surfaces or engines on an aircraft in motion is, by any reasonable definition, Safety Critical. The engineer who designed this thing, the manager who approved it, and the FAA regulator who signed off on it should all be put in prison for criminally negligent homicide.

      Even our system of oversight is supposed to have redundancy built in, so when the FAA starts abdicating its oversight responsibilities, disaster is one step closer. Anyone who thinks that regulation is bad needs only look to this accident to see what inadequate regulation does.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    18. Re:So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      MCAS: It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead [or you disable it].

    19. Re:So, pilot error? by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It really is both. Initially, Boeing did not document the existence of MCAS. Some pilots may have stumbled over it's existence and applied a checklist for similar failures in documented systems.

      Later, Boeing was required to document the existence of MCAS and state clearly that the runaway trim checklist should be followed when it malfunctions. Apparently not all pilots got that memo (so also a training problem).

    20. Re: So, pilot error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      They didn't tell pilots about this system, what it does, what happens if it fails and how to disable it. It simply wasn't in the pilot's manual, didn't make it into the training process.

      How did the dead-head Lion Air pilot know how to save the plane??

      Isn't in the summary, the dead-head pilot was simply going through a crisis checklist that all pilots should have memorized.

    21. Re: So, pilot error? by sjames · · Score: 3, Informative

      The class of problem, "runaway trim" can be caused by a few different systems malfunctioning. Most of those systems also exist on the old 737, but MCAS is new to the MAX and behaves a little differently, though if you figure that out, the remedial action is the same.

    22. Re: So, pilot error? by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, Boeing was trying to avoid the training necessitated by the aircraft having new handling characteristics as compared to the previous model. The MCAS itself required zero training.

      The "training" to go from a previous 737 to the 737 MAX consists of a 1 hour video and some short reading. They could have added a section to it which said "yeah, btw, we put this new box in, if your trim starts acting up just follow your standard runaway-trim checklist", and that would have been it. Not exactly a big hit to the budget there. Leaving it out was just dumb, not greedy.

  2. Imagine if that had been Frank Abagnale by Lucas123 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Abagnale would pose as a pilot to sit in airline jump seats and get a free ride. I don't know why, but the image of the pilot turning to him for help just crossed my mind.

    1. Re:Imagine if that had been Frank Abagnale by Calydor · · Score: 5, Funny

      And yet he might go, "Holy shit, we're all gonna die if I don't do something! What kind of fixes do I know about for electronics? Alright. Turn it all off and back on."

      And judging from the summary that just might have worked.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  3. Sounds a lot like United Airlines Flight 232 by Software · · Score: 4, Informative
    United Airlines Flight 232 was also saved by a dead-heading pilot who assisted the cabin crew.

    What's remarkable in the Lion Air flight is that the company didn't ground the plane until the angle-of-attack sensor problem was resolved.

  4. Boeing 737 MAX Hidden Settings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    https://i.imgur.com/YwuKQkp.png

  5. Re: Holy cow! by Type44Q · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Someone really missed an opportunity to save a lot of lives.

    Another way is to say that someone seized the opportunity to lose a lot of them.

  6. Re:Collection of errors by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The smoking gun for this incident isn't going to be what the final report says. It'll be on some notes by some engineer when this project started saying everything above. There isn't a way that this project made it this far without some intelligent engineers speaking up and getting over ruled by management.

    I lasted exactly 45 days in Aerospace and it was terrifying, they picked a "COTS" architecture that hasn't been "COTS" since the Macintosh moved away from 68k. I was told to 'deal with it'. Other people quipped that "this wasn't the worst design decision he's seen". The schedule was everything because customers had already bought what we were working on.

    But everything HAD to move forward according to THIS timeline because someone already bought it. In those 45 days I had to work on trial versions of everything, they couldn't figure out how to get us licensed in to their network. Everyone else on the project had always been in aerospace, so this was 'par for the course'. I came from automotive where we actually did put safety first (at least where I worked).

    I want to see the MIL/SIL/HIL reports. This should have been caught in the plant model long before it came to market. There should be a high-fidelity model that shows this exact scenario and how it plays out. It was buried for some reason or another. If there isn't then they didn't test as comprehensively as they should have (because of rushing to market).

    There are a lot of people, that have been coming to similar conclusions about the MAX8. It's an 'unstable pendulum' that they thought they could just 'fix it in software'. Good hardware design is crucial to a good controllable system.

    Someone spoke up, either they have an e-mail in a safe (like Audi's Dieselgate) or they're no longer with Boeing (or one of their subcontractors like GE, or GE's subcontractors) because they did speak up and were told they were 'toxic to the project'.

    This is the boring un-sexy parts of engineering. But 'Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (FMEA)s' are important. We literally sit down and go "What happens if this fails" and then write out a full plan in software. Plus a full test plan.

    dSpace makes aerospace hardware-in-the-loop (HIL) test benches. They make them for automotive and off highway too. We literally 'drive' around a vehicle for thousands of hours for software releases.

    I don't have a doubt this was caught by someone somewhere. Management got involved and now this is going to be another Challenger O-Ring example for freshmen engineers.

    Is ignoring a plugged sensor a bad idea? Absolutely. Should the failure mode be plowing into the ground an full tilt after fighting the pilots? No.

  7. A blow to US civil aviation influence by wired_parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the bigger long-term consequences of these MAX-8 incidents will be the impact on the FAA's influence in the civil aviation world. One little commented fact is that when the MAX-8s were grounded it was the Chinese civil aviation authorities who led the world in grounding the 737 MAX. This was unprecedented, as most civil aviation authorities have tended to follow the lead certification authority of the manufacturer, the FAA in this case, before issuing a grounding. This was the case in previous grounding - the 787 dreamliner in 2013 and DC-10 groundings in 1979 were both led by the FAA.

    Additionally, it now appears both Transport Canada and EASA are no longer willing to accept FAA certification. Other aviation authorities have in the past accepted FAA certification without challenge. if other authorities no longer trust the FAA to do its oversight properly Boeing will be forced to carry out multiple certification assessments for each civil aviation authority, and that will carry with it a considerable delay and financial burden.

  8. Responsibility????? by sgt_doom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Although I haven't been in the aviation arena for some years, I recall that this should have been disseminated in a NOTAMN (notice to airmen) --- why didn't that aircrew spread that correction to others within the airport and airlines????? If they did not, it displays a massive show of irresponsibility on their part!