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Debris From India's Anti-Satellite Test Poses Threat To ISS, Says NASA (npr.org)

When India blew apart one of its satellites orbiting Earth last week, it created hundreds of pieces of orbital debris, and some of those pieces are large enough and high enough to pose a potential threat to the International Space Station, NASA says. "That is a terrible, terrible thing to create an event that sends debris in an apogee that goes above the International Space Station," NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine said, referring to the debris' highest point in orbit. "And that kind of activity is not compatible with the future of human space flight that we need to see happen." NPR reports: In calculating the Indian test's potential impact last week, he said NASA determined that the risk of small debris hitting the space station was increased by 44 percent over a period of 10 days. "It's unacceptable, and NASA needs to be very clear about what its impact to us is," Bridenstine said, discussing space debris and India's anti-satellite test at a town hall event Monday.

As he spoke about the heightened risk, the NASA administrator also emphasized that both the space station and the astronauts aboard it are safe. The station can be maneuvered out of harm's way if needed, he added. But another danger, he said, is that "when one country does it, then other countries feel like they have to do it, as well." "The good thing is, it's low enough in Earth orbit that over time, this will all dissipate," Bridenstine said on Monday. Those pieces are expected to burn up as they re-enter Earth's atmosphere. India's intercept of its own satellite created 400 pieces of orbital debris, Bridenstine said.
"What we are tracking right now -- objects big enough to track, we're talking about 10 centimeters [4 inches] or bigger -- about 60 pieces have been tracked," he said. "Of those 60, we know that 24 of them are going above the apogee of the International Space Station."

28 of 217 comments (clear)

  1. why am i not surprised by yanyan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Indians have a problem (putting it extremely lightly) with pollution, garbage, littering, and all sorts of fun, unsanitary stuff on their streets and even in their most holy river -- in their own country. Did anyone think they'd actually respect the rest of the planet? Or even space?

    1. Re:why am i not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All of us have a problem in that, and we in the industrialized nations have a headstart of 50-100 years.

      Nonsense. Many industrialized nations have done significant cleanup since the turn of the century. Also, many of those nations have sewage waste treatment plants and an organization of pipe systems to bring sewage to those facilities. India doesn't - most raw sewage ends up untreated in the ditches of their streets and rivers.

      The worst criminals are those in denial. C'mon: if the Koch brothers keep paying people to say "oh, CO2 and warming are not a thing", and they sell coal... they should go to jail

      Amusingly, you're shoving out as much nonsense propaganda as they do.

      That bit of space debris pales in comparison. It is as if someone points at a stain on the wall while rats are all over the floor (not saying that it is a good idea, tho).

      Sorry, your metaphor doesn't really apply here. Please try again, thank you.

    2. Re:why am i not surprised by MrKaos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was in an Indian city some time ago on a work thing. I thought it would be a good opportunity to see what was going on there if this is where all the IT work was going. I don't feel so threatened anymore, having seen the infrastructure.

      I was driven around looking at the barely controlled chaos that the country was when I saw a man walking across the bridge we'd stopped on. With obvious intentional momentum he swing a bag of garbage from the side of his body opposite the side of the bridge high over head in a well practiced arc right into the river.

      Later, in a large group of Indian fellas (I had told the muslim fellow that as guest was god he must have beer with us all - which was a funny pickle to put him in) they asked me what I thought best and worst about India.

      I told them I thought their culture was very colorful and beautiful and they seem much more family oriented there. I told them they have all this fantastic red soil that it looks like anything will grow in. I also told them I liked the ass washing devices that all the toilets had to which they had a merry chuckle.

      I remembered the man on the bridge when I told them that the worst thing about India is that the people don't seem to care about what they have been blessed with and treat the place like shit.

      My observation about both India and China is they seem determined to make the same mistakes that the west has already made instead of learning from them.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  2. 44% larger risk by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    44% larger is the number I've been seeing for the extra risk.

    So, what's the baseline risk? 0.01% chance of being hit any given year? 44% larger then becomes 0.0144% chance of being hit with the debris of that satellite. Hardly a significant risk, really....

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    1. Re:44% larger risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nasa tracks space debris so they can steer clear of it; largest they can currently track is 4cm diameter objects.

      A 4cm diameter object has double the diameter and, if made of lead, 4-8 times the volume of a 12 gauge shotgun slug and likely around the total mass of a 50BMG bullet.

      To reach orbit one must achieve a velocity of around 25000 feet per second; a 50BMG round travels at around this speed.

      If the object is travelling in a transverse or opposing vector (so not in the same direction of the craft but either in the opposite direction or cross-ways), you have a risk of impact.

      Putting this together, you have an object with under the volume of a 50BMG Round, some unknown mass and density (could be insulation, could be shattered aluminum fuselage, could be a shart of a hardened steel bolt), that can strike the space station at least at 25000 feet per second and at upto 50,000 feet per second. That object is not alone, there's an entire debris field is changing shape as it follows its ballistic trajectory, bounces off of itself, the thin atmosphere, and gets hit by rays of the sun and heated.

      So the best way to think about this is the ISS Is a goose and India decided to fire a single 12 gauge defender round (that has both large balls and tiny ones) at within the effective range of the round. You fire a shotgun 100 times, you will get a different spread each time, and out of those spreads, 44 times they will hit the goose.

      The worst thing that can happen here is a hardened bolt was shattered by the impact into a hundred tiny bits in a very tight pattern and happens to hit the station. That's like shooting the side of the ISS with 12 gauge buckshot except the velocity is upto 50 times what a 12 gauge is capible of putting out. We don't know density, but knowing what home made shotgun rounds filled with legomen can do to thin metal, thanks to youtube, I am not optimistic a feather hitting the ISS at 50,000 feet per second is just going to bounce off.

      And that's if we know upfront the impact happened. You can get hit and not know for months, then find out at the worst possible time.

      So yeah. This was a dick move by India. However, given they don't participate in our space program, I don't think they really care.

    2. Re:44% larger risk by rmdingler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nasa tracks space debris so they can steer clear of it; largest they can currently track is 4cm diameter objects.

      Interesting post, but I think you meant smallest they can currently track is 4cm diameter objects. Your results may vary depending on who is estimating the numbers, but there are conservatively tens of thousands of objects larger than 10cm, hundreds of thousands between 1-10cm, and 100 million+ objects

      Regarding India, they just want a seat at the table when the power players discuss satellite defense and weaponry. This is a classic tragedy of the commons.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:44% larger risk by Gilgaron · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well yes but they're busy building a wall between Earth and Mars.

    4. Re:44% larger risk by White+Yeti · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, lots of politics (domestic and international) behind this test.

      One correction to the GP: NASA doesn't track the objects in orbit. CSpOC takes care of the tracking and distribution of data. NASA does statistical sampling and modeling of the environment, as well as impact testing and evaluation of shielding designs. Also, NASA scientists typically use metric (though the hardware people often still use inch-pound-second).

    5. Re: 44% larger risk by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      The United States Space Force is currently in the proposal stage, waiting on approval by Congress. If approved it will be implemented beginning in 2020, with full capability established by 2024.

      As of 2019 only one nation has an operational Space Force: the People's Republic of China.

      The more you know!

    6. Re:44% larger risk by ghoul · · Score: 2

      Join the SPACE FORCE, travel to an EXOTIC LOCATION, pick up trash!!!!

      I can just see the recruitment poster.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  3. It was a message by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 5, Interesting

    India sent a message loud and clear: we will do this, and we don't care if it causes space junk. I hope everyone got the message. The US State Department is very big on "sending messages" with its actions. Let's see how they like being on the receiving end for once. I think it'll be very educational for them to attend another country's lesson instead of being the one dishing it out.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:It was a message by oic0 · · Score: 5, Informative

      "international" space station. Not US space station. They didn't shit in our pool, they shit in the community pool.

    2. Re: It was a message by TigerPlish · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Much hatred, such wow.

      Listen, my anti-American friend, we learned those lessons long ago, which is why we are the way we are now. We went to school with the natives, the English, the Germans (twice in 25 years), the Soviets, and more. What we learned is that no one is to be trusted, to do the other guy in before he does you. You know, like when you discover as you leave childhood or maybe even earlier that the world is a nasty angry place full of people who wish you harm or take what you have.

      So know India has a satellite killer. Message received, you are now worthy of increased scrutiny and intel gathering. As if having nukes didn't already put them on out to-watch list.

      But what their littering of space really shows is that still have that retarded lack of attention to detail that also plagues their software. That shit-for-brains "oh it's good enough don't worry about it" attitude that kills in aerospace.

      That's why their shit will always be shit. Not because they're Indians, but because they don't strive for perfection. In some fields perfection and precision are must-haves.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    3. Re: It was a message by TigerPlish · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Selective reading comprehension fail much?

      I didn't say Indians are shit for brains. I called their attitude shit for brains. Can't see the difference? One is tarring and feathering an entire race, the other is pointing out that there's a trait that is not compatible with precision work, and they have that trait in spades.

      If I tell someone "machine me a piece of bar stock to .00001 inch precision" and they deliver something hacked with a file to .1 inch precision and they tell me it's good enough, that's shit for brains.

      If the project required the software to do X, and what they deliver (over budget and over time) falls well short of that and they tell me it's good enough, that's shit for brains.

      And guess what? That's what I see from india all the time, in hardware and software. To the point that I refuse to buy support anything made like that, no matter where it came from.

      Still think it's racist? Then you can't hear the truth for it hurts you.

      I get it, going against the librul groupthink is wrong. Fuck it. Time to call bullshit where there is bullshit, and fuck the overly sensitive who can't handle it.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    4. Re: It was a message by TigerPlish · · Score: 3, Interesting

      or do you really have the feeling that you are still one united nation under the same flag?

      Nope, we're divided, and hard. I think it was Vietnam that did the initial seismic split and it's only gotten worse. My sig is an oblique reference to that era. I came up with it after noticing that all our present ills can be traced mostly to that year, or more generally the decade of 1965 - 1975.

      People on all sides - left, right, up, down - and all permutations that encourage widening this divide are the real traitors... although I will concede the lies of the Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon admins over Vietnam are what did it. They threw the first punch.

      The traitors are those who drive the wedges that have split us, and the criminals are those who profit from it. On all sides. Am I being clear? I detest the right and the left, although I consider the left more dangerous to our country because they seek to dismantle what little remains of it. As the saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." In their misguided effort to protect the environment and "raise all boats" they'll drown us all.

      Fight the split, people. Get rid of the traitors and criminals who split us and profit from it. No matter what party they're in. Do it now, or watch our country finally succumb to its wounds and end up like All The Rest.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    5. Re:It was a message by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

      After the US, Soviet and China shit in it first. Whenever a big nation goes "We've already have weapons with that capability, but you shouldn't have it." they're not exactly coming from neutral ground. The US is very often trying to freeze the status quo when it's to the American advantage, while acting oblivious to the fact that they're asking to carve permanent differences in stone. Take for example CO2 emissions, the US has one of the highest rates per capita in the world but the American focus has been about curbing growth. Which is nice, if you're already a post-industrial high-pollution low-growth country. But if you're China or India you look at that graph and think fuck that, why should I have to pollute less than an American? It's just as much my planet as yours. I'm not a huge fan of India doing this, but US criticism is the pot calling the kettle black.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    6. Re: It was a message by Kjella · · Score: 2

      If I tell someone "machine me a piece of bar stock to .00001 inch precision" and they deliver something hacked with a file to .1 inch precision and they tell me it's good enough, that's shit for brains.

      I see this as a variation of the Scotty factor for time estimates, where they're used to most requirements being bullshit that somebody set early and padded once because the design might work with 0.1 inches but let's get 0.01 inches because it's a long and formal process that'll be hell to change both in terms of time and money later and because they have a reputation for over-promising and under-delivering let's order 0.0001 inches so we're on the safe side.

      On the other side they know how much bullshit is added and try to deliver some cheap junk that's more in line with the price being paid. Then you fix the things the client screams the loudest about until attrition kicks in and you can close out with a shoddy result because they're in too deep to declare the project a failure and scrap it. I've seen a lot of projects that were near-train wrecks be declared a success because they did just enough to clear the 1.0 hurdle with a huge backlog of cut features, manual processes and lacking tools/documentation. And I don't necessarily mean outsourcing...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re: It was a message by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think that you need to go further back to the New Deal under FDR, the resulting 80% marginal income tax rates for the 1% and their creation of organizations and think tanks (John Birch Society, Heritage Foundation, etc...) to push for deregulation and the shifting of tax burden from the wealthy to the middle class and poor.

      The constant lies and propaganda which use emotions to get people to vote against their own best interests have damaged the psyche of the entire country.

  4. Re:India It would seem never saw the movie gravity by Just+A+Gigolo · · Score: 5, Informative

    The space debris scenario is valid : The Kessler syndrome (also called the Kessler effect,[1][2] collisional cascading or ablation cascade), proposed by the NASA scientist Donald J. Kessler in 1978, is a scenario in which the density of objects in low Earth orbit (LEO) is high enough that collisions between objects could cause a cascade where each collision generates space debris that increases the likelihood of further collisions.[3] One implication is that the distribution of debris in orbit could render space activities and the use of satellites in specific orbital ranges impractical for many generations.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  5. 44% increase from nothing by r2kordmaa · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Normal 10 day risk of ISS getting hit can't be very significant to begin with, so does 44% increase from nothing really amount to significant risk?

    And does anyone have a public list of TLEs for the debris cloud? Or at least a list of apogees and perigees?

  6. Re:WindBourne will be along to blame China soon by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 2

    Thank you, cadre Ping. Your social credit score just earned two points!

  7. Wait for call centres! by TJHook3r · · Score: 3, Funny

    Can just imagine NASA receiving a call from Bangalore after the ISS gets hit... 'hello, we understand you have been in an accident that was not your fault?'

  8. Re: India It would seem never saw the movie gravit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Says someone who doesn't appreciate the technology they use regularly that resulted from space exploration.

    https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

  9. Serious-minded Action by necro81 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Maybe I am a bit naive to even suggest this, but it seems to me that now would be an appropriate time for the nations of the world to enter into a treaty specifically designed to avoid one-or-more jackasses from ruining space access for the entire human race. I would call it the Kessler Avoidance Treaty (KAT).

    It is, generally, a set of rules to avoid a tragedy of the (space) commons - a general agreement not to shit all over the near-Earth environment (100 km to, say, 600 km). Among its provisions would be:
    * A blanket ban on anti-satellite missiles or other ways of destroying satellites that create debris clouds. This includes not only the deployment of such weapons, but also their development and testing.
    * Require whoever launches a rocket to ensure that all orbital-velocity, non-payload masses (e.g., upper stages, payload fairings, etc.) have a built in method to guarantee de-orbiting within, say, three months. (I suppose parking in a higher orbit, like 5000 km, would also be acceptable.)
    * Active payloads (i.e., satellites) must have a documented plan for end-of-life that ensures de-orbiting within, say, 1 year after end-of-service.
    * A service fee attached to all orbital launches (including those that pass through near-Earth to other orbits, like geosynchronous) to fund the development and eventual deployment of measures to remove debris and other hazards from the near-Earth environment. This could be lasers, satellites that tether to and de-orbit other satellites, and who knows what else. The service fee would be based on rocket gross weight at liftoff (although probably on a logarithmic, rather than linear scale).
    * The development of international design standards for satellite manufacturers and launch providers to reduce small fragmentary debris: paint chips, frangible bolts, etc.)

    Yup, this will make space launches a bit more expensive: it will slightly lower the payload that a particular rocket can deliver. I call that chump change compared to the catastrophic cost of a full-blown Kessler syndrome, which would wipe out >$100B of already-launched assets, degrade the $Trillions of annual economic activity that utilizes space services, endanger the lives of humans in space, and render access-to-space difficult or impossible for a generation.

    There is plenty of precedent for humans creating and enforcing treaties against generally-bad behavior. The treaties banning atmospheric nuclear weapons tests are one good example. The Montreal Protocol for eliminating CFCs is another. These are imperfect measures, certainly, and not universal ratified. But they have gotten most of the major players on the same page, and drastically reduced the harm that could otherwise have happened. It also provides a moral framework for punishing non-ratifiers.

    Right now is the best time to implement this kind of treaty. (Well, really, 5-10 years ago.) Humanity is drastically lowering the barriers to accessing space, and so we're on the cusp of a huge surge of launches. We ought to agree upon the rules now before there are 100 new players. At the same time, we are ever-more dependent on using orbiting satellites for all manner of daily activities, and there are untold riches still to be reaped.

    I am, however, dreadfully pessimistic about the chances of such a treaty coming about under (present) US leadership. We have the most to gain and the most to lose. It would also be a chance to reassert some global leadership against strategic rivals such as China and Russia. But our present executive demonstrates no particular strategic thinking, and I'm sure this kind of topic and its rational solution aren't on his radar.

    1. Re:Serious-minded Action by pnutjam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What your proposing is exactly why India did this. They see the blanket ban coming and want to ensure they get a seat at the table of have's instead of being pushed into the have-not's and can't ever have pile.

  10. Re:We have space program b*itch! by DutchUncle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, India is being called out for this because they did it when there are people (and other satellites) to be put in danger.

  11. Re: We have space program b*itch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    its one thing to have target practise in an empty field back in the 1950's, but now that old field is now a thriving suburb full of houses.

  12. Re:We have space program b*itch! by Brett+Buck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, they are called out for doing something stupid and irresponsible.