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A Suite of Digital Cryptography Tools, Released Today, Has Been Mathematically Proven To Be Completely Secure and Free of Bugs (quantamagazine.org)

By making programming more mathematical, a community of computer scientists is hoping to eliminate the coding bugs that can open doors to hackers, spill digital secrets and generally plague modern society. From a report: Now a set of computer scientists has taken a major step toward this goal with the release today of EverCrypt, a set of digital cryptography tools. The researchers were able to prove -- in the sense that you can prove the Pythagorean theorem -- that their approach to online security is completely invulnerable to the main types of hacking attacks that have felled other programs in the past. "When we say proof, we mean we prove that our code can't suffer these kinds of attacks," said Karthik Bhargavan, a computer scientist at Inria in Paris who worked on EverCrypt.

EverCrypt was not written the way most code is written. Ordinarily, a team of programmers creates software that they hope will satisfy certain objectives. Once they finish, they test the code. If it accomplishes the objectives without showing any unwanted behavior, the programmers conclude that the software does what it's supposed to do. Yet coding errors often manifest only in extreme "corner cases" -- a perfect storm of unlikely events that reveals a critical vulnerability. Many of the most damaging hacking attacks in recent years have exploited just such corner cases.

123 of 194 comments (clear)

  1. Completely secure and free of bugs. by olsmeister · · Score: 5, Funny

    Until it's installed on a computer that uses an Intel (tm) processor, that is....

    1. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or a Microsoft operating system.

      It's insane how buggy Windows 7 and its successors are.

    2. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Red_Forman · · Score: 4, Informative

      I am guessing you never used earlier Windows versions.

    3. Re: Completely secure and free of bugs. by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      They claim to have no memory bugs. It was written in F* and compiled to C.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by thereddaikon · · Score: 1

      Or if it uses any third party APIs or Libraries. Which you know it does. Doesn't matter if internally their program is free of faults if it interacts with something that isn't.

    5. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can imagine a mathematical formalism where every instantiation of a secret key must result in calling a destructor that securely zeroes the key.

    6. Re: Completely secure and free of bugs. by tysonedwards · · Score: 2

      Itâ(TM)s more that an operating system installed on billions of devices with billions of daily users experiencing pain points of the same bugs and vulnerabilities for decades should not have an unexposed attack surface left and all around be sufficiently hardened.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    7. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 3, Informative

      Incredible...I could actually hear the eyes of everyone who suffered through Windows ME rolling at that.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    8. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't think it makes it as far as being compiled before it loses it's provability. The article says a new language, F* was built that is verifiable. But did they also verify the F* compiler?

      My guess is that their library is only provably correct on a theoretical machine like a turning machine. But once the rubber hits the road, it could have a bunch of problems.

      Still, some formal verification is better than many existing cryptographic libraries.

    9. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's a good point.

      Why isn't there more info and press coverage on the "Spoiler" attack and Intel VISA (Visualization of Internal Signals Architecture)?

    10. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Z80a · · Score: 1

      Or installed on a computer that for some reason tend to not execute the instructions correctly, or have a weird reset glitch that for some reason skip just the right instructions to unlock everything.

    11. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Testting 101 - Where are the graduates?
      1) Is coverage
      2) Path analysis
      3) Exception handling ...

      What coverage/paths/exceptions?

      This is crypto code, it's a linear sequence of operations. It doesn't get any more easy-to-prove than that.

      --
      No sig today...
    12. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      That's what the "integrity" part of encryption does: if you can only interact with a program via an encrypted stream, authenticated by public key, and the encryption code to decrypt and verify authenticity and integrity of the message is faultless, then you know that only those authenticated to the system can attack all other parts of the system. Your attack surface and threat actor set is minimized.

    13. Re: Completely secure and free of bugs. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      If you cherry-pick just the right hardware that doesn't have terrible, buggy drivers it can run great. This was relatively rare, so your experience is not the norm.

    14. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "I don't think it makes it as far as being compiled before it loses it's provability."

      I can prove it's means "it is".

      It's been nice proving you wrong.
      SexConker posting as AC to preserve moderation.

    15. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      I'd much rather something like Trevisor, where the key never leaves CPU registers.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    16. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      C++ compiler: object is never read from after being zeroed, thus by the abstract machine specification the last write does not lead to any observable behaviour and can be skipped.

      Java JIT: No reads between zeroing and freeing/next writes, skip zero writes. This is an important optimization since by specification all objects are zero initialized, leading to large amounts of overhead if the writes cannot be skipped.

      Functional languages: Create a new zeroed buffer, leave the old one unchanged. Mutable state is bad!

      Any modern OS: let me copy that buffer to the swap file.

      Any SSD: you want to override this? Lets do some wear levelling and overwrite that other location instead.

      Mathematician: we have proof that our system is 100% secure on a theoretical Turing machine.

    17. Re:Completely secure and free of bugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mathematician: we have proof that our system is 100% secure on a theoretical Turing machine.

      That is not a bad or pointless thing. People here don't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between a conceptual security hole, and an implementational security hole. If you code the entire library in a language not vulnerable to insecure implementation errors (lisp?), it may be possible to have a code library not vulnerable to hacking. Its pretty certain that almost every language that caters to a human (VM based, ASM, C, C++, and even languages like Erlang, Eiffel, etc.) will be inherently insecure & exploitable.

  2. Really, proven free of bugs? by JoeyRox · · Score: 3, Funny
    1. Re: Really, proven free of bugs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes. In the mathematical sense. It is a math proof.

    2. Re:Really, proven free of bugs? by Erioll · · Score: 1
    3. Re: Really, proven free of bugs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So the code is free of bugs. What compiler did they use?

  3. Aren't they a bit late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's the 3rd...

  4. How very nice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    this sounds legit and not like a bullshit slashvertisement! Perhaps it has a nice helping of blockchain, too?

  5. But how do you prove the proof by XXongo · · Score: 2

    Interesting, but how do you prove the proof?

    1. Re:But how do you prove the proof by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Generally, you fall back to some very axioms that everyone agrees on. That's the way math works.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:But how do you prove the proof by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Informative

      If it comes from a theorem prover, and includes a trace of the proof, then it can be checked with a proof checker. Proof checkers are generally much simpler than theorem provers, because they only need to mechanically check that the proof trace is consistent, whereas a theorem prover has to *find* that trace. Worst case is that you check the steps yourself.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:But how do you prove the proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Generally, you fall back to some very axioms that everyone agrees on. That's the way math works.

      That is also the way math doesn't work. The matematician Kurt Godel proved that way back in 1936.

      Axiomatic systems are never complete, nor could any axiomatic system become complete.

      Working from axioms is insufficient for proof, but very few people, even among the highly educated, are even up to 1930's contemporary mathematics.

    4. Re: But how do you prove the proof by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      It's still how math works. You can't prove everything true based on axioms (as Godel showed), but in practice we just don't prove those things. We prove what we can.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:But how do you prove the proof by omnichad · · Score: 2

      You just aggressively claim it's true and that it proves itself. Otherwise known as a toutology.

      Yes, I know that was a bad joke.

    6. Re: But how do you prove the proof by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't know who taught you about Models incompleteness theorems, but you should not listen to them anymore because they led you far astray.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:But how do you prove the proof by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Just because there will be true but unprovable propositions does not indicate that axiomatic proofs are insufficient.

      What it really means more than anything, is that the Clay Institute won't have to pay out on all the prizes. Goldbach's Conjecture, for example, is obviously true but may never be formally proven.

  6. Naive by tomhath · · Score: 1

    "Our code has no known bugs."

    And we pretend there aren't any unknown bugs.

    1. Re:Naive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      From the article:

      Yet while EverCrypt is provably immune to many types of attacks, it does not herald an era of perfectly secure software. Protzenko noted there will always be attacks that no one has thought of before. EverCrypt can’t be proven secure against those, if only for the simple reason that no one knows what they will be.

    2. Re: Naive by jazzoslav · · Score: 2

      The mathematical proof must be translated into code. You're either dumb or naive if you think that can be done flawlessly.

  7. Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And they are one of the most important attack vectors these days. The whole Spectre attack scenario is "mathematically" non-existent: speculative execution is leaking information (through performance impacts on various caching systems) while purporting to be invisible when discarded.

    1. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by alvinrod · · Score: 2, Informative

      But that's a security issue in the hardware itself. Would you claim that their program is insecure if you had a hardware system that allowed any program full access to the memory of any other program? Of course not, you'd point out that nothing could be considered secure when running on such a system so the question itself is flawed.

    2. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by Red_Forman · · Score: 2

      If a CPU tells you that 1+1=3, does this mean the math is faulty or the CPU failed?

    3. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by weilawei · · Score: 1

      They do exist; we know how to treat them using category theory. What else is the IO monad for? We have not done so yet in any meaningful way for the broader class of unintended side channels.

    4. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But that's a security issue in the hardware itself.

      Good luck running a mathematically proven secure program without hardware.

    5. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by alvinrod · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you extend that reasoning further, then absolutely nothing is secure, because even secure hardware will be used by humans who do not practice perfect security. 2048-bit RSA running on a dedicated and verified FPGA is now insecure as well because some idiot human is capable of giving out the key. If there are flaws or vulnerabilities in other layers, it says absolutely nothing about the security of the software. You could argue that perhaps their proof is incorrect, but unless they've made some obvious mistake, we'd have bigger problems were that the case.

    6. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > then absolutely nothing is secure,
      Nothing is absolutely secure.

    7. Re:Sidechannel attacks don't exist mathematically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes.

  8. Proof that it works as intended ... by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

    which might include the clever/obscure bit of code inserted by a NSA/GCHQ stooge.

    How long before this stuff is banned by various governments or they decide that running it is proof that you are a terrorist or similar.

    1. Re:Proof that it works as intended ... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      I don't see why the NSA would care. They can already get your passwords anyway. My guess is that, if they wanted to, they would just look at every key I type into my computer and save all that data. Which includes my passwords. They could do it by changing my hardware, or putting cameras in my house, or various known remote attacks. Or failing that they could use a wrench to get the passwords out of me.

      Protecting yourself from state level actors is too damn difficult for an individual to do.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  9. Ok yeah, sure, uhuh, perfect code. by stevenfuzz · · Score: 1

    Obviously an ad, but, wouldn't their magic math-based testing unicorn also be subject to bugs?

    1. Re:Ok yeah, sure, uhuh, perfect code. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not magic by any mean, just based on Curry-Howard isomorphism...

  10. please download! by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    PLEASE DOWNLOAD:

    the_real_photo_tools_so_don't_run_AV.eve

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  11. the bastards say 'welcome' by david.emery · · Score: 1

    The SPARK community has been doing this for A Long Time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I'm reminded of a quote from "Soul of a new machine" where another vendor (IBM?) 'legitimized' minicomputers. Data General ran an ad that said, "The Bastards say 'welcome'!"

  12. Overstated Headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It cannot be completely secure so long as it has to run on real-world hardware (this is not a dig at Intel, as there is no such thing as perfect hardware).

    1. Re:Overstated Headline by weilawei · · Score: 1

      That's a (mathematically) strong statement, and an actual problem for research.

      I can see several issues there. What are the minimum requirements for a computable system? (Conditional branching is generally good enough.) How do you prevent attackers from having those? How do you deal with timing attacks? Do you move to a constant time design? Power attacks? What are you going to do about boundary protection, rad hardening?

      It ultimately comes down to: is it possible to build a perfect black box that computes only its intended function f and yields no information beyond the mathematical descriptions of its inputs and outputs?

  13. Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "secure by raymorris · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's true. One can prove that a particular function is correct, that their code is correct. In this case, library code.

    Proving the CPU hardware and microcode is a separate step. Proving the code that USES their library is yet another thing.

    All of these can be done. It's just expensive, so you use the simplest thing that will get the job done - prove a little MCU used as a cryto co-processor, not a complex Intel CPU.

  14. The interesting bit... by ath1901 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here's the interesting bit about what they actually did:

    The platform needed the capacity of a traditional software language like C++ and the logical syntax and structure of proof-assistant programs like Isabelle and Coq, which mathematicians have been using for years. No such all-in-one platform existed when the researchers started work on EverCrypt, so they developed one — a programming language called F*. It put the math and the software on equal footing.

    “We unified these things into a single coherent framework so that the distinction between writing programs and doing proofs is really reduced,” said Bhargavan. “You can write software as if you were a software developer, but at same time you can write a proof as if you were a theoretician.”

    1. Re:The interesting bit... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 3, Funny

      F* (pronounced "F star") was the grade my university would give to students who failed a course, but not just for any failure. The F* grade was reserved for those who cheated on an exam, plagiarized papers, or were otherwise caught engaging in unethical behavior. It was a scarlet letter that went on their official transcript, forever branding them as someone you couldn't trust (or as someone who wasn't competent enough to NOT get caught, depending on your outlook).

      As a result, it's kinda hard for me to shake the feeling that there's something untrustworthy about this software.

    2. Re:The interesting bit... by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

      "F* (pronounced "F star")..."

      Whoever named it that lacks social ability.

    3. Re:The interesting bit... by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      "See Sharp"

  15. KreMLin by dcollins117 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Couldn't help but notice the code is built with a compiler named "KreMLin". Isn't that interesting.

    1. Re:KreMLin by robot_dude · · Score: 1

      Pre-processor: "mSs" Compiler: "KreMLin" Linker: "NsA"

  16. First, we posit a spherical cow... by karlandtanya · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's possible to be mathematically perfect...in fact, mathematically is pretty much the only way to be "completely" or "perfectly" anything.

    The basic problem with mathematical proofs is that math is an abstraction (the model), and the perfect-and-complete nature of the proof can *only* ever apply to the abstraction. The degree of fidelity to which the model reproduces your particular real situation is another story. Mathematically proving your solution is perfect not meaningful by itself.

    It's a huge red flag the the vendor in this ad is directing our attention to a meaningless mathematical proof of perfection in their product. This strongly suggests to me that there is no valid reason to trust their design.

    Even if we stipulate a "perfect" set of cryptographic algorithms implemented in a mathematically "perfect" set of code, the solution is meaningless without proper implementation and user procedures.

    For example: I've got a great VPN (it uses OpenVPN), but when it fails, all my traffic is suddenly exposed. So I adjust my firewall rules so the only traffic allowed besides that needed to establish the vpn link must go through through tun0. Or use wireguard instead. Until next week when I'm in a factory and I need to talk to some PLCs or I/O modules to configure them, then I turn off the firewall or use the "factory" instead of the "office" setting. Now I have to remember to turn it on again or I won't be protected. etc. etc. etc.

    There are no "magic bullets", and somebody claiming to have one has just saved you the trouble of evaluating them any further.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
    1. Re:First, we posit a spherical cow... by gweihir · · Score: 2

      The basic problem with mathematical proofs is that math is an abstraction (the model), and the perfect-and-complete nature of the proof can *only* ever apply to the abstraction.

      And that is exactly it. Anybody claiming to have shown any real world properties are mathematically proven is either incompetent or a liar or both.

      The degree of fidelity to which the model reproduces your particular real situation is another story. Mathematically proving your solution is perfect not meaningful by itself.

      It's a huge red flag the the vendor in this ad is directing our attention to a meaningless mathematical proof of perfection in their product. This strongly suggests to me that there is no valid reason to trust their design.

      In fact there is strong reason to _not_ trust them. They are lying by misdirection about the security. They may lie about other things as well.

      Even if we stipulate a "perfect" set of cryptographic algorithms implemented in a mathematically "perfect" set of code, the solution is meaningless without proper implementation and user procedures.

      For example: I've got a great VPN (it uses OpenVPN), but when it fails, all my traffic is suddenly exposed. So I adjust my firewall rules so the only traffic allowed besides that needed to establish the vpn link must go through through tun0. Or use wireguard instead. Until next week when I'm in a factory and I need to talk to some PLCs or I/O modules to configure them, then I turn off the firewall or use the "factory" instead of the "office" setting. Now I have to remember to turn it on again or I won't be protected. etc. etc. etc.

      There are no "magic bullets", and somebody claiming to have one has just saved you the trouble of evaluating them any further.

      Indeed. Run screaming or start laughing. But do _not_ buy the snake-oil they are selling.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re: First, we posit a spherical cow... by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      For example: I've got a great VPN (it uses OpenVPN), but when it fails, all my traffic is suddenly exposed. So I adjust my firewall rules so the only traffic allowed besides that needed to establish the vpn link must go through through tun0. Or use wireguard instead. Until next week when I'm in a factory and I need to talk to some PLCs or I/O modules to configure them, then I turn off the firewall or use the "factory" instead of the "office" setting. Now I have to remember to turn it on again or I won't be protected. etc. etc. etc.

      You could just configure your firewall to exclude private subnets from the rule in the first place. Or if that's too insecure for your needs, add exclusions on a per-IP basis only when you need them (you can even give them an automatic timeout using ipset, so you don't have to remember to remove them). Or have a completely separate interface (USB Ethernet or wireless) which is exempted from the firewall rules, and use that when you don't want to route through your VPN.

      I agree, though, that the "just turn it off for now" mentality tends to cause a lot of security issues. That's exactly why you should plan ahead and implement one of the solutions I've listed above, instead.

    3. Re:First, we posit a spherical cow... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      The thing is, cryptography is pretty much just simple math, especially compared to most typical user-facing software. Cryptographic algorithms don't have to deal with checking user authentication and authorization at every entry point into the system the way a web site does, they don't have to deal with the types of concurrency issues that databases need to handle, and they don't have to deal with users pressing buttons in an unexpected order that puts the software in a state that the programmers didn't think of.

      Cryptography is probably the (non-trivial) software that's easiest to prove.

    4. Re:First, we posit a spherical cow... by jbengt · · Score: 2

      Anybody claiming to have shown any real world properties are mathematically proven is either incompetent or a liar or both.

      Not that it automatically makes them competent or truth-tellers or both, but they haven't done that in TFA. They claim they have mathematically proved that their code is secure against known attacks. Code is math so it is subject to mathematical proof. TFA didn;t include the proof, and I'm not sure that I could follow it, anyway, but a lot of posts here are assuming they claimed perfect security if you run their code, when they specifically and explicitly stated otherwise.

      Indeed. Run screaming or start laughing. But do _not_ buy the snake-oil they are selling.

      Or, spend some time reading RTFA before getting hysterical.

    5. Re: First, we posit a spherical cow... by karlandtanya · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. Google "reification fallacy".

      --
      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
    6. Re: First, we posit a spherical cow... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Oh, I got your point. It basically boils down to "it doesn't matter how good the security is, I can find a way to fuck it up". No arguments there; I'm sure you can, and I know you're not the only one. I just thought I would offer you a way to avoid fucking it up in that particular scenario. Trying to be helpful rather than disputing your point.

    7. Re:First, we posit a spherical cow... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They claim they have mathematically proved that their code is secure against known attacks.

      They have a list of all known attacks? Fascinating. Because nobody else has that list, there are just far too many. You are also wrong that code is math in this instance here. Many, many known attacks do use side-channels. And there code stops being math and is very much a physical system executing the code.

      So while they may actually have excluded all that in their paper, what remains after that is pretty meaningless.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:First, we posit a spherical cow... by swillden · · Score: 1

      It's a huge red flag the the vendor in this ad is directing our attention to a meaningless mathematical proof of perfection in their product.

      Note that it's not an ad, they're not a vendor, and EverCrypt is not a commercial product. This work is the result of an academic research project, from a Carnegie-Mellon professor, his PhD student, and a researcher employed by Microsoft.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  17. An unsinkable ship by theblkadder · · Score: 1
    I remember many years ago a group of people claimed to have built a ship that was unsinkable. I'm pretty certain we all know how that turned out.

    In fairness the article does add some caveats about currently unknown attack vectors and the like, however anyone claiming a piece of software is completely error-free, especially when they also developed an entire new language to build said software is probably mistaken.

    --
    Earth is a single point of failure.
  18. Bullshit by gweihir · · Score: 1

    There is no way to "mathematically prove" security of software on the confidence-level of a mathematical poof. It starts with the execution model not being fit to be formally represented. It continues with the used compiler not being verified. Then, formal verification is extremely high effort and infeasible for anything besides a really small code base in practice.

    At the end, this is a lie. And the ones lying must know that.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Bullshit by CyberSlugGump · · Score: 3, Funny

      Reminds me of the famous Donald Knuth quotation: Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.

    2. Re:Bullshit by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      There is a verified compiler, if they made their language compiler with that then your argument falls apart. Care to detail your knowledge outside of this particular article?

    3. Re:Bullshit by Nkwe · · Score: 2

      While you probably can't prove that the compiler will do what you think it will do, and you probably can't prove that the CPU will execute the compiled code the way you think it will, could you prove that your source code does not have a specific set of common developer introduced programming errors? A quick scan of the article seemed to indicate that this was the actual claim. While not earth shattering, it does seem useful.

    4. Re:Bullshit by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Of course there is. Code is executed in a logical way. Saying their code is mathematically free of bugs is both valid and provable. Now whether the compiled result, the platform or hardware allows an exploit to run on the final binary is a completely different argument.

    5. Re:Bullshit by k2r · · Score: 1

      There is no way to "mathematically prove" security of software on the confidence-level of a mathematical poof.

      This - on the code level - is exactly what you learned to do at university when learning functional programming languages.
      Yes, there’s still a lot that that can go wrong on deeper layers‘ but at least for their code they proved correctness.

    6. Re:Bullshit by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      But every time there's a story posted to Slashdot that's about software patents, at least a dozen people start ranting about how software is just math. Are you telling me Slashdot is wrong?

    7. Re:Bullshit by jbengt · · Score: 1

      There is no way to "mathematically prove" security of software on the confidence-level of a mathematical poof.

      They specifically said in the TFA that they picked Cryptography because it was feasible to mathematically prove the code is secure from known attacks. They also basically said it would be infeasible for them to try it with many types of complex programs.

    8. Re:Bullshit by gweihir · · Score: 1

      A verified C compiler is nice, but they are talking correctness on the level of a very fundamental mathematical proof. Ordinary code verification does not give you that. You need to verify the compiler against the full formal description of the hardware. That is pretty much impossible.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:Bullshit by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I agree that his is useful. But it is not "Mathematically Proven To Be Completely Secure and Free of Bugs" by a far cry.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re:Bullshit by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. You must never have heard of Hoare Calculus or "weakest precondition" calculus. I learned both in CS 102. No functional language required. (I know a few too.)

      But that is not my criticism. When they claim to "mathematically prove" some property of a real object, then the lower layers must be included. And they need to "mathematically prove" that Physics is complete and correct as well. That is impossible as mathematics can only work on abstractions, not the real world. Anybody claiming to have "mathematically proven" any property of a real-world object is lying, plain and simple (or incompetent).

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:Bullshit by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Software is Math. Software executed on a computer is Physics. Attacks are done against software executed on a computer, not against the software itself.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    12. Re:Bullshit by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They are wrong. This is not possible for crypto code either. When you look at the last few years, many vulnerabilities are information leaks. Spectre and Meltdown are probably the most famous at the moment, but there are many more, for example RSA keys leaking via timing, etc. They can prove absolutely nothing for these attacks. "Secure" most definitely means secure in practice. "Free of bugs", under the assumption the machine is flawless, is something else and that is what they may have done. Of course for this to be "on the level of a mathematical proof", they need to have verified all tools and the compiler on that level as well, and bootstrapping (were you compile the compiler with itself) does not work as the resulting "proof" would be circular.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  19. Not so fast... by XMadtowner · · Score: 1

    Mathematical probability is complete hocum. Not secure and free of bugs until Chuck Norris says so.

  20. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by skids · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Proving the code that USES their library is yet another thing.

    That's the rub. There will be some wrapper written to make parameter exchange automatic, or facilitate finding a VPN gateway, or whatnot, and it'll undo all the hard work in a few lines of hastily coded VB.

    There's a hard and fast requisit for establishing a MITM-proof crypto channel: you have to exchange some keying material safely... whether that's through a CA system or a preshared key or whatever, it simply must be done... and the users will choose the software which skips that step because someone assured them it is taken care of automagically, and well heck, that's much easier.

  21. And then the Guide said... by magusxxx · · Score: 1

    "...and no one had to be nailed to anything."

    --
    Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
  22. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by lgw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It' impossible to prove that your crypto library is invulnerable to side-channel attacks. It is possible, however, to prove it's not vulnerable to common side-channel attacks. That's not nothing.

    Their marketing hyperbole is so over the top, however, that I wouldn't trust them with anything.

    A big problem in general in software crypto is that it's impossible to prove that the random/entropy source provided by the processor is good. There's no software work-around to that - oh, you can try to use I/O timings and so on, but those can be manipulated. Even if the code that generates the mask that is used in the fab is proven correct, we know the NSA is capable of tampering with the mask between code and fab.

    After the Snowden revelations were understood, paranoid crytpo guys reached the point of "I can't only trust a hardware entropy source that I build myself from components I bought myself in person from a random store." That's not exactly productizable, but it's a fair assessment of the threat of the NSA.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  23. Formal verification finally coming of age? by bradley13 · · Score: 2

    Formal verification has huge potential, and can (theoretically, at least), be applied to any software that doesn't have side effects (which mainly means: everything is an input or output parameter - no GUIs, no external input/output, etc..). It's really cool to have something significant that has been formally verified.

    That said, formal verification still only takes you so far. There is no way for them to have proven immunity to side channels, or immunity to processor vulnerabilities, or even immunity to brute-force attacks. So this is an important battle, but it doesn't automatically win the war.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Formal verification finally coming of age? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Intel used to used formal meathods to prove that their CPUs worked. They had to stop proving the entire CPU as they became too complicated to complete in a reasonalbe time. So they just prove the core functions. That is why the Pentium bug was such a shock for them. Here was a bug missed n a fully proven processor. Oops.

  24. Oracle 9i Database by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1
    --
    #DeleteChrome
  25. Re:Trust Us, We Checked by bn-7bc · · Score: 1

    Yes but still useless as you never know when it givesthe correct time

  26. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by ljw1004 · · Score: 2

    Their marketing hyperbole is so over the top, however, that I wouldn't trust them with anything.

    Really? What is the "marketing hyperbole" you're talking about? The only hypebole I've seen in this case comes from journalists.

  27. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    That's true. One can prove that a particular function is correct, that their code is correct. In this case, library code.

    Crypto library code is very linear, no conditionals, just a sequence of math operations. I don't think it's hard to prove correctness.

    This is just marketing wank.

    --
    No sig today...
  28. Re:With Goedel's incompleteness theorem. by k2r · · Score: 3, Informative

    [ ] you understood G”oels incompleteness theorem

  29. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Not disagreeing, just clarifying.

    Yes you can prove that it is unaffected by known, enumerated side-channel attacks in the processor / chipset.

    You can't prove it would be unaffected by unknown CPU side-channel.

    ALSO you can prove that there are no side channels in the code itself - you can enumerate the state parameters which affect the functioning of the code, both internal and external state parameters.

    The distinction becomes important when you start proving more than one component of the system. If you prove the library code - including against aide channels in the code, and you prove any kernel - including kernel side channels, and you prove the microcode - including microcode side channels, and you prove the hardware - including hardware side-channels, then you've proved the system to be free of side channels, and the application code, then you've proved the system.

    In proving the system, you prove that the output state is identical *per the specification*. If you specify "identical state" as high and low CMOS output, you'll have no side channels re high vs low - but you could still have a high at 3.28 volts vs a high at 3.29 volts.

  30. Re: Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "se by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered... exactly what would motivate someone to spend decades building up their career to get to a point where they could be hired by someone like Intel for a high-level position, only to risk having that career UTTERLY and permanently incinerated & destroyed if they "did something" for the NSA and ended up getting caught?

    The NSA's budget isn't small, but it's not like they could afford to properly compensate an engineer for a lifetime of lost earnings and opportunities for self-actualization at a company like Intel. Even if they somehow gave him a new identity afterwards, he'd have ZERO chances of EVER getting hired by someone like AMD or Nvidia, because someone in HR would notice that he didn't have documented experience with a comparable company & toss his resume in the shredder without a second thought... and if he made it far enough to be considered, the company AMD hired to do his background check would run facial recognition on him, find a picture of him at an Intel company picnic posted to Instagram by a former coworker, and tip AMD off.

    Let that sink in. His career, and everything he spent a lifetime working towards, would be *ruined*, and the amount of money it would take to insulate him from the fallout of getting caught would probably exceed its objective value to national security... not to mention the potential harm it would cause to the US economy if Intel were suddenly treated like Huawei by other countries.

  31. Mandatory functional language skills by k2r · · Score: 1

    Maybe learning a single functional language like ML to grasp the concept and a little mathematics should be mandatory for every software developer.
    At least many of the comments suggest this to me.

  32. Looking at project on Github by mrlinux11 · · Score: 2

    I found this issue on github and it appears they are not as good as claimed, this is a security 101 mistake. "Currently the generated C functions don't check for the proper length of the input arrays. Indeed the user can read it from the original F* code, but when they make a mistake the code still executes and reports success (like in #53 ). Would be possible to add bound checks on inputs and return an error code (like 1 in case of aead_encrypt "

  33. Obligatory XKCD: by captaindomon · · Score: 2
    --
    Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
  34. From the article... by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

    EverCrypt is the first library to be provably secure against known hacking attacks.

    Known hacking attacks.

  35. So when it IS cracked by petes_PoV · · Score: 2
    ... that will cast doubt on every other cryptographic proof.

    If you were going to wave a rag in front of the hacker "bull" then claiming some code was proven secure is just the way to do it.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:So when it IS cracked by swillden · · Score: 2

      ... that will cast doubt on every other cryptographic proof.

      If you were going to wave a rag in front of the hacker "bull" then claiming some code was proven secure is just the way to do it.

      Sure, and when some clever hacker shows that there are right triangles whose legs can be squared and summed to something other than the square of the hypotenuse, it will cast doubt on every other mathematical proof.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  36. Re: Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "se by lgw · · Score: 2

    Consider the case where the guy is working for the NSA out of college, and then, as an NSA employee, applies to Intel or whoever in hopes of getting into position to make such a change. He has a bright future within the NSA, and a second income for a while.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  37. Re:Trust Us, We Checked by Wulf2k · · Score: 1

    But still better than those other clocks that are 'never' showing the correct time.

  38. I'd like to learn something by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    Feeling like I'd like to learn today. Could you take a moment and give me some simple examples of what it means to prove an algorithm or whatever it they are saying.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:I'd like to learn something by rockmuelle · · Score: 2

      TFA actually does a good job of discussing it in layman's terms. It's surprisingly devoid of hype and hyperbole.

      As a starting point that's not TFA, Formal Verification is the sub-field of CS that this is based on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      -Chris

  39. For very small values of 'completely' by ediron2 · · Score: 1

    Hmm, what's the delta between:
    > Has Been Mathematically Proven To Be Completely Secure and Free of Bugs
    and:
    > The researchers were able to prove -- in the sense that you can prove the Pythagorean theorem -- that their approach to online security is completely invulnerable to the main types of hacking attacks that have felled other programs in the past. "When we say proof, we mean we prove that our code can't suffer these kinds of attacks,"

    Completely, vs narrow. The headline giveth, but the small print taketh away. Science and tech journalism pays so poorly that many practitioners don't understand enough to not make these gaffes.

  40. There is no secure software by jazzoslav · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a bunch of kids, trying to impress some other kids.

  41. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by thereddaikon · · Score: 1

    I think formally proving the code does have security relevance. While you are right Rowhammer and the like are unaffected, most vulnerabilities and attacks are centered around failures in the code. Those attacks that exploit poor implementations and lazy programmers are easier to implement. So formally proving your code is valuable. So is taking a security first approach to the project. It's usually impractical or impossible for a dev team to fix or verify security flaws at other levels like the Kernel or hardware. The best they can do is ensure that their bit of responsibility, the application, is written securely. And try as best they can to mitigate what they cant control.

  42. Could have just used by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Ada.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  43. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by flargleblarg · · Score: 1

    Neat trick. But I have to point out that your code:

    *wPos++ = 87 - ( ((cl - 10) >> 7) & 39 ) + ch;
    *wPos++ = 87 - ( ((cl - 10) >> 7) & 39 ) + cl;

    is unnecessarily confusing, unnecessarily complex, and unnecessarily machine-dependent.

    It would be more portable, much easier to understand, and require one fewer operation, while still being branchless, if it were written like this instead:

    *wPos++ = ch + '0' + ((x >= 10) * ('a' - '9' - 1));
    *wPos++ = cl + '0' + ((x >= 10) * ('a' - '9' - 1));

    And if hardware multiplication is slow on your CPU, you can do the following instead, which is also perfectly portable in C and does not rely on any undefined behavior (although it's back to requiring the extra operation):

    *wPos++ = ch + '0' + (-(x >= 10) & ('a' - '9' - 1));
    *wPos++ = cl + '0' + (-(x >= 10) & ('a' - '9' - 1));

    Note that the expression 'a' - '9' - 1 becomes the compile-time integer constant 39.

  44. Re:Yes, the code is right, only the code. Not "sec by flargleblarg · · Score: 1

    EDIT: Damnit, I proofread that twice before submitting, and now noticed several typos: Where I wrote x, I meant to write either ch or cl, as appropriate.

  45. Rowhammer is a hardware problem by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Auditing the hardware is important. It's not part of auditing the software. They are two separate processes, both important.

    The eventual goal (dream) is to prove the entire system, we prove as much of it as budget allows. To prove a system, we must identify the components and prove each component. That is, we must prove the hardware, we must prove the microcode, etc.

    Hardware can be vulnerable to Rowhammer.
    Hardware can be proven to be vulnerable to Rowhammer, or not vulnerable. The definition of proving the hardware is that you prove it won't Rowhammer NO MATTER WHAT SOFTWARE IS RUN. Once you know the hardware can't have Rowhammer, you don't have to think about Rowhammer for a particular software, the hardware simply can't Rowhammer, period.

    There is no code that can be vulnerable to Rowhammer when running on hardware that isn't vulnerable to Rowhammer. That seems obvious enough. Rephrasing that obvious fact:
    There is no code that contains a Rowhammer vulnerability.

    Only hardware can be vulnerable to Rowhammer. Therefore we know that if we can prove a particular piece of hardware is not vulnerable, the system is not vulnerable.

    We think about Rowhammer when we prove the hardware, not when we prove the software.

    We know the hardware doing wrong things will cause the system to do wrong things. That's a given. We prove the software without care about any particular hardware because we prove the hardware at a different time, in fact it's a different group of people proving hardware. When proving the software, we know / assume it's running on proven hardware. We don't have to worry about hardware vulnerabilities while we're proving software. It's not that hardware can't have issues. It's that the hardware audit is a separate process.

    1. Re:Rowhammer is a hardware problem by stoborrobots · · Score: 1

      An argument could be made that, given the knowledge of a particular hardware vulnerability, software can eliminate the risk when being run on that hardware by working around that vulnerability (to whatever extent is possible).

  46. Proven software assumes hardware is sane by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    Proven software makes assumptions on compiler and hardware sanity. This will be exploited through stuff like RowHammer, Spectre, or Meltdown.

  47. Formally verified != bug-free by yellowfroggy · · Score: 1

    It's amazing how many people still wrongly believe that formal verification guarantees that software is bug-free. The proven properties only hold under certain conditions. In a recent study, researchers from the University of Washington analyzed several verified distributed systems and found a total of 16 bugs in them, some of which could cause the systems to crash or corrupt data. The bottom line is that formally verified software does NOT mean bug-free software and you STILL need to test software. Here's a summary of their findings.

  48. Can even prove it by removing constraint by raymorris · · Score: 1

    By defining "correct" or "expected" hardware behavior as allowing Rowhammer to occur, one can even prove that the software (kernel) will do the right thing despite Rowhammer. That would be very interesting.

    Probably more practical would be proving that no code path allows neighboring memory rows to be accessed at a rate faster than X clock cycles, where X is the speed required to Rowhammer.

  49. I have only proved it correct, not tried it by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    For $2.56, who said it? (Sheesh, young'uns these days.)

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  50. A interesting use of the F* language by ndykman · · Score: 1

    The parts about buffer overruns and other certain common errors were older parts of the system.
    The cool part (and I'll have to read the paper) is how they formalized timing to prove against timing attacks.

    For those curious, this is all based on the Curry-Howard correspondence, which links type checking of programs to proofs. Given this, you can create a language whose type system allows you to prove certain things about the program. You can then use an SMT to prove that a translation from F* to another language is correct.

    There's even formal models of ARM and there's a provable version of L7, a microkernel.

    I honestly think the next big wave is going to be applying formal verification to more practical systems. Bugs and security cost, and these tools are powerful ways to address those issues.

    Granted, given the use of X86-64, there's always hardware issues to be addressed, but even there, formal verification is important.

     

  51. No mention of the real weak spot. by RemoJones · · Score: 1

    Almost always, the weakest part of an encryption system is the key management, including key exchange. Key management and key exchange involve protocols and I doubt that whatever the company uses to prove their code can be used to prove protocols.

  52. memset_s by tepples · · Score: 2

    C++ compiler: object is never read from after being zeroed, thus by the abstract machine specification the last write does not lead to any observable behaviour and can be skipped.

    It isn't skipped if the program uses the memset_s defined in C11 to modulate the compiler's inference that the zeroing "does not lead to any observable behaviour".

    Java JIT: No reads between zeroing and freeing/next writes, skip zero writes. This is an important optimization since by specification all objects are zero initialized, leading to large amounts of overhead if the writes cannot be skipped.

    Even if the char[] holding the secret's UTF-16 encoding is cleared by by Arrays.fill method? Oracle itself uses this in its example for Swing JPasswordField .

    Any modern OS: let me copy that buffer to the swap file.

    A modern OS denies reading swap by nonadministrators within the OS and encrypts swap to protect it from reading outside the OS.

    Any SSD: you want to override this? Lets do some wear levelling and overwrite that other location instead.

    It's as if you think disk encryption is impossible.

    1. Re:memset_s by sjames · · Score: 1

      You seem to have missed the point. Yes, disk encryption is possible, but unless it's use is listed as a precondition to the program's proof of security, the proof is potentially meaningless in the real world where swaps happen and compilers and CPUs may or may not execute the code exactly as written.

      An example of that caveat:

      memset_s is an optional feature of the C11 standard and as such isn't really portable. (AFAIK, there also are no conforming C11 implementations that provide the optional Annex K in which the function is defined.)

      In other words, your compiler may pay lip service to memset_s by not throwing an error and still eliding the code.

  53. Re:With Goedel's incompleteness theorem. by sabbede · · Score: 1

    Well, that's not really how the theorem works. It isn't that proofs can't be 100% complete, it's that there are true propositions that can't be proven in an entirely complete logical/computable system. Basically, that you can either fudge the rules to prove everything (completeness), or unfudgeable (consistent) rules that won't be able to prove everything.

  54. cubical cows by hawk · · Score: 1

    Spherical cows are for amateurs.

    Professionals use cubical cows of unit edge length.

    They stack *so* much better . . . :_)

    hawk

  55. Amending the proof by tepples · · Score: 1

    disk encryption is possible, but unless it's use is listed as a precondition to the program's proof of security, the proof is potentially meaningless in the real world

    Then I hereby propose extending the proof thus to make it more meaningful. A proof can be amended; it need not be discarded outright.

    your compiler may pay lip service to memset_s

    Then replace use of memset_s in the proof with use of each operating system's counterpart to memset_s.