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Infoworld reports on Redhat's choice of GNOME
Andy Tai writes "This
InfoWorld story reports on RedHat's choice of GNOME as
the desktop for the next version of its Redhat Linux. While
the story is nothing new, this is a sign that GNOME has
captured "mainstream" attention." The IDC analyst quoted
does not seem to realize that GNOME is optional.
Lets hope all the bugs are out by then.
Gosh these people show yet again that they should not talk about what they do not understand. Comparing DCOM and CORBA okay, but hearing that "Gnome mimics Microsoft's OLE by using CORBA" drive me nuts !
That they change the default Window Manager. Oh god, anything but fvwm95! Yes I know they do it to help new users and all that, but fvwm95 is even uglier than windows and just gives the appearance that GUI on Linux sucks. Of course the only Gnome compliant WM is Enlightenment, and sheesh, what would they put on the box then? "Do not attempt to use default Desktop configuration unless your system has >256mb of ram". Blech.
Those are basically the Windows 2000 requirements aren't they? :-)
1) the amount of memory enlightenment takes up pretty much directly corresponds to the size of the pixmaps in the theme used. thus, a less extravagant theme will take up hardly any ram.
2) no theme in existence makes enlightenment take up anywhere NEAR as much ram as you imply. try running top while you're using it sometime.
3) enlightenment is NOT the only gnome-compliant WM
As the Enlightenment X-Wing took off, Kenobi's spirit stared up.. "That window manager is our only hope". Yoda shook his head. "No... there is another".
The latest WindowMaker runs great on my KDE desktop, and seems to run great with GNOME as well. It correctly interprets most of the wm hints (I found a couple odd spots, but it's getting there) and the interface is a pleasure to use.
Blackbox is also a lot of fun. Unfortunately, it only supports KDE integration right now (that I'm aware of) and I haven't tested it out. But I would recommend both to people who are looking for a nice, fast window manager to use with GNOME.
Can someone post a summary on the number of distributions that have officially included/will include KDE or Gnome to be their default desktop, because I would like to see how these two have gradually replaced fvwm95 as the preferred environment to move Linux to the workstation/corporate desktop level.
/. 's servers and bandwidth.
BTW, do you prefer a desktop environment like KDE, Gnome, UDE, or just a GUI like WindowMaker, IceWm, Enlightenment, Black Box, and why?
Thanks
PS: Please don't post any flames about the forever war of KDE vs. Gnome. The posting above is not intended to trigger another flooding of
More BS. Red Hat choose GNOME. Hell - Red Hat *PAID* for GNOME. They fund GNOME. Freedom of choice? Nah... You can use anything you want, so long as Red Hat approve. Welcome to the Microsoft of Linux :-/
Yeah, i'm kinda tired about hearing how linux needs to adopt a single look or something
fuck that, once of the [many, many] things that makes linux cool is the fact i can make it look/act/work anyway i want... i don't gotta use KDE or Gnome or libaw or aw3d whatever.
Whenever i read about a person says that all linux apps need to look the same for some reason i wonder if this person really likes computers.
I for one, think that they are right. What does it mean to have "a clue what Linux is about" ?
They don't stop you from using KDE or not using anything at all for that matter.
My web server runs fine without any X applications of any sort, despite the fact it is a Red Hat box.
Some companies that ship KDE in their distribution
include SuSe, Caldera, DLD, PTR, Eurielec,
Turkuaz, Stampede, LinuxPPC, MK Linux, Connectiva,
Cox-Redhat, Mandrake, and FreeBSD.
This above list was obtained from the KDE website.
Many of the minor distributions above are
variations of the Redhat distribution which are
customized in some way and include KDE. Also, some
my also have/will have Gnome...I think LinuxPPC
is going to Gnome in the future.
I'm not too sure of the Gnome side...at the
minimum would be Redhat and Debian...
I prefer a complete desktop vs just a window
manager because it can be time consuming to tweak
a window manager to perfection with a text file.
Try explaining how to change the desktop
background to a newbie using an arbitrary
distribution... they all have their own scripts
and tweaks to work around... having a
configuration panel makes it easier.
What's redhat got that you feel so required to use it? Nothing? Oh, you are not running it? THEN STOP COMPLAINING.
This isnt like microsoft. I can understand people having to use windows for certain applications/games/hardware, but trying to say that one linux is being more monopolistic than another is just plain stupid. Sure redhat is funding Gnome, so obviously they are going to use it instead of KDE. I'm sure KDE will continue as long as it is at least as good as gnome. Before gnome, all we had was kde, now there are more choices. Deal with it.
Has anyone out there looked at Raw Hide lately? I notice on Red Hat's rawhide.redhat.com FTP server that in the i386/RedHat/RPMS directory, they have RPMS of *BOTH* GNOME & GTK, *AND* KDE & QT. I know there hasn't been much press about it, so obviously Red Hat is going about it quietly, but I wanted to draw attention to the idea that Red Hat might be incorporating KDE as well in the next release of Red Hat, since it is currently in Raw Hide.
Linux, like ALL open souce, is about choice. About being able to use [one of] the right tools for the job, and not being locked into something that may be inappropiate for the job, inferior, or simply not to your taste. Generally, competing projects are a Good Thing (see the Halloween Document #1, which points out that competing projects are a strength of open source.
RedHat doesn't force you to use RedHat, how can you force them to use KDE. They will support whatever they want. I believe that GNOME is inherently superior to KDE. Ofcourse currently KDE is in a much better shape. But there are concepts like Widget Themes, and CORBA that are only being considered by KDE.
Wake up and look around Linux is about choice, if you can make your choices, you have them, otherwise someone has to make them for you. It is your choice whether to use Linux or Windows, those who can't choose get Windows by default. Similarly after you have made the choice of linux, you have to chose the distro, if you don't you will get whatever your friends have chosen, and most probably that would be RedHat, because accept it its the most popular one around. The popularity is not undeserved, they have really worked for it. Your choices don't stop at the distro, but then people take whatever comes with it and don't chose.
So if you don't have the faculty of chosing, why blame it on RedHat. If you can chose, have something that you like otherwise accept what you get.
But why am I shouting at a moron, who would not even read what responses were sent to him/her.
No RedHat would not put KDE into it's dist. That is not open and fair in my book. I will never buy anything from RedHat. By not allowing KDE in they have not given the user a choice,, only what they want you to use. That in my book sucks. Give us a choice and not dictate that we use GNOME just because you are paying employees to develope it! And please explain why GNOME is so much advanced over KDE? Is it because of Corba? Come on KOffice has been using Corba from the start. KDE can be used with severl WM's now.
RedHat give the users a choice.
P.S. RawHide has KDE, but will it be in the next dist?
And when, pray tell, did Red Hat become the sole distributer of Linux?
And what Red Hat did, is choose to support GNOME by hiring some of its devlopers to work on GNOME. But they don't own GNOME. And they couldn't stop you from installing KDE even if they wanted to.
I'm planning on converting my home systems from Slackware (even thought I'll continue to subscribe, the metalab archive copy is worth it) to Red Hat, but I'll try out both GNOME and KDE, before I pick a favorite.
> Give me the choice to use KDE without having to
> download it.
Yeah! Any company that does not provide this guy with the "choice" to have things exactly as he demands out of the box is evil!
Guess what, I heard if you want to run Apache on a redhat box you have to actually add your own HTML files to get the site that you want! That's sooo unfair! It's Red Hat's moral responsibility to do it for me!
Yeah man, I heard Red Hat wasn't going to be shipping any Windows CDs with Netscape either. That _proves_ they are a monopoly and must be stopped!
get mandrake man !
My personal preference is the XFce desktop with it's own WM, XFwm.
The why is simple, for me. I much prefer tools that come from the unix tradition of small and powerfull. XFce doesn't have a boat load of the things that GNOME or KDE or any of the rest of them have but it's clean, simple, powerfull, easily configurable and does everything you could ever want to get work done.
Now, this does NOT mean that I am against any of the other projects. More power to GNOME and KDE and everyone else out there. I'm just saying that they are of no use to me in my usage of Linux.
Joe
" But there are concepts like Widget Themes, and CORBA that are only being considered by KDE."
And rightly so ! GTK folks should rather concentrate first on making sure that their toolkit works as advertised instead of adding "fun" stuff.
"Gnome is better because it is multilingual and language-independent," said Todd Graham Lewis, a
technical manager at ISP MindSpring, in Atlanta.
This is just more GNOME publicity FUD.
it seem Debian support Gnome too.
i have to say although i enjoy the look and ease of use that come with these packages they are both too bloated. i used a p166 w 32mb ram and a fresh win95 install the other day and it loaded netscape and everything else a lot faster then my redhat system. too bad it crashed after a few hours. my k6 takes like forever to load netscape and needs at least 64mb of ram to stop from swapping like mad under kde. yes i could just not use gnome or kde but then i like having "shortcuts" to my favorite folders and programs on my desktop. oh well i guess i save up and buy a P III to avoid the whole issue.
Currently, I use WindowMaker, because it looks nice, and it's useable. In the past, I've done TWM, OpenLook (OLVWM), and FVWM (v1). I prefer configuration through text scripts, or even modifying the source to TWM. Other than for Netscape, GhostView, and the GIMP, I just use a bunch of XTerms.
KDE and GNOME came with my current SuSE 5.3 installation, but they just seem like a lot of fluff. I do prefer the look of GTK+, though, so I use the GNOME CD player.
For a bit of history, I started on TRS-80s and Apple IIs, then moved to XTs and weird AT&T 286s running DOS. Soon after I got a computer reasonably capable of running MS-Windows, I installed Linux on it.
(versus C++ with Qt/KDE) makes it easier to
program for in many languages?
Since that is not true, I doubt he would have mentioned it.
You pampered baby. These distributions make it so easy, and yet you curse them. If you want more choice, then why not do it yourself from source code? It may take a little more time, but it's the Real Man's way to go.
You can probably find what you need at CheapBytes or InfoMagic.
GNOME supports at least six languages to KDE's one (not my favorite, either). Traditionally "FUD" is reserved for statement that are actually untrue.
Ummm.. Which existed first? KOM or OLE2?
Exactly.. So who here is guilty of NIH?
Come on, Stop whining! Seriously, if Gnome was guilty of NIH they would certantly use a KDE something before a *MICROSOFT* something!
The gnome people decided that ole2 was a mature, intelgent and functional design that would work well with their framework. This has the added secondary benifit of already having people with some knoweldge of ole2 and it's pitfalls. This way they can take a proven design, remove it's inconsistencys and problems and have an execelent product. (rember that gnome's baboon doesn't have to be compatible with ole2).
So think before you post, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of NIH out there.. This really isn't one of them.
Chill, he was horribly misquoted. Read a few posts above!
Also, there is some truth to this if it was refering to computer languages. KDE only officially supports C++ (yes, I know about the bindings, but if they are so good then why arn't any kde packages in the core dists written with them?), while Gnome was designed from the ground up with a more multilanguage approach.
an extra 32Mb helps a lot as well -- since X-Windows is a huge resource hog.
Umm, you dont ever mention running Gnome above. IF you have, please tell about it's memory requirements.
Wow, look at that: Here on a RH5.1 (stock+update rpms+kernel2.1.131-ac[x]) box (30days uptime) with just kde (kwm,kpanel, kfm) kscd, xfsft, some daemons, images on desktops, and X (1280x1024x16bit 3.3.2 matrox) I have 18megs in use(not counting cache, as reported by free).
Now with gnome: Same system, but with enlightenment e15 CVS and gnome CVS (panel, mc, some applets, mp3 player) I have 14megs in use.
Also keep in mind that gnome was compiled with -O and all debugging options while KDE was release ver and stripped.
Hmmm... ever tried it on an X terminal lately -- put a network in the display pipe and it crawls.
RedHat is no better than Microsoft when it comes to spreading FUD in their own commercial interests.
Controversy about KDE's status as truly "open
source" initially led Red Hat to choose Gnome, according to Bob Young, the company's CEO.
Why don't they mention that's no problem anymore?
"Gnome is better because it is multilingual and language-independent,"
KDE supports much more languages, in particular (eastern) European and Asian ones. Probably because Gnome is more an American affair.
The Gnome component model is modeled
after the Windows component model.
That's untrue. Baboon isn't even ready! KDE is much further advanced with KOM/OpenParts (see KOffice), and Baboon will do exactly the same when it's ready, yet it is incompatible.
Miguel de Icaza just wants to have his name under the object model => NIH syndrome
RedHat is becoming a big, bad company, and I don't like that at all.
Caldera is right when they say KDE is further advanced.
RedHat spreads *real FUD* here, so they are the ones to blame.
Besides that, KDE is rather independent, while Gnome definitely "serves RedHat's needs" (to dominate all Linux standards).
Probably somebody who goes to ALE meetings and lurks about.
SuSE comes with the biggest set of software (5 CDs), and they have integrated both KDE and Gnome very well into their distro. Default desktop is fvwm2 (as for 5.3), but you can change it with one mouse click on the login screen. They've even written a GUI tool to allow easy switching of WMs under Gnome.
As WM I prefer KWM because it provised the most functionality, just use a different KWM theme on KDE.themes.org. The standard one looks a bit too Windows-OS/2-ish for me.
Many WMs now offer KDE and (limited) Gnome support, so you have a choice
Avus
> Except that it's (almost) true. GNOME has Baboon, an interface which is
> built on top of CORBA but modeled after OLE, which allows one to embed
> other apps within their own, in much the same way you can have a live
> Excel chart in a Word doc under windows.
That OLE-style interface model is so lame. The OpenDoc-style document-centric behavior would be so much nicer.
Very true.
KDE is definitely more multilingual in the real sense, i.e. it has much better internationalization.
Programming languages are a kind of toy for the Gnomes, who like to support even the most exotic languages on earth.
KDE is more pragmatic, they write bindings, when there is real demand for them. As rather few people code in languages other than C(++), Perl, Python, this is not a top priority.
(to be honest, I would rather like to see the Gnomes working more on stability instead of ultimate diversity as well...)
Ummm.. Which existed first? KOM or OLE2?
Exactly.. So who here is guilty of NIH?
Baboon is not OLE2, it simply does the same thing, it's inspired by OLE2. Exactly the same with KOM/OpenParts.
This is a classic case of NIH, as Gnome (or Miguel) simply didn't want to support a technology from KDE, even if it is technically excellent.
Baboon is not even complete, while KOM/OP is mature and widely used in KOffice. The best way for Gnome would be to work together with KDE.
They reinvent the wheel here, and even worse, it's a squared one, as it is incompatible with KOM/OpenParts.
Maybe RedHat just wants to dominate the object model technology...
And is not too bad on my dual P166 with 64MB.
Thanks for biting:)
... and count the number of people employed in redhat ...
So you have already been assimilated by RedHat.
BUT count the number of cvs acounts
Look at the code provided by RedHat (especially in the core sections) and you'll see a different picture. There is a difference if you just have a CVS account or if you work on it the whole day.
RedHat controls the 'key positions' of Gnome.
But another point is even more important: Nobody says Caldera or even (the ~7 developer company) TrollTech 'owns', i.e. is mainly responsible for KDE. KDE is extremely independent and they make the cricial decisions for themselves.
In Gnome's case, you'd probably go to RedHat (first) if you needed support, so they have a kind of 'support monopoly/advantage', which 'serves their needs'.
Another thing is strategic decisions like the object model. KOM/OpenParts, as others have pointed out here, does exactly the same Baboon will do some day.
Why don't the Gnomes take it (there was very little public discussion about that)? It's either NIH or RedHat wanting to push through their own technology (a RedHat employee works on it).
This sounds like a RedHat Halloween strategy...
2. QPL compatible with GPL?
1. Mozilla isn't out yet.
2. MPL compatible with GPL?
RedHat happily ships Netscape, which is totally closed source. They cannot fix any bugs in the most popular program they distribute.
Because they spread FUD like this article.
It's not because they force anyone to buy their distribution. It's because they spread mis-information to promote their own success.
I don't know what you are looking at, but gnome panel does not look anything like Windows95.
You use "sucks" a lot, but don't give any meaningful detail as to why you don't like things. But I guess I don't expect much when you think Gnome is run by Redhat, which is not the case.
"stole all the ideas from kde," do you even know what you are talking about? Using the ideas of others IS part of KDE and GNOME.
Also, you should not attack anyone for there code unless you are ready to back it up with your own code, not just opinion based on misinformation.
David
If you had it your way and people used existing programs/libs/technology, why even bother with using KDE/GNOME when Windows* was here before either one? Why stop there, MS didn't invent idea of Windows, Linux didn't invent the idea of UNIX os, Slashdot & Freshmeat didn't invent the idea of news for nerds, and hell, why even have computer when existing human technology was handling everything just fine.
:), to calculator.
So, NIH syndrome is a good thing. Lets let people do it there own way. Who knows, maybe we'll even get lucky and get another big jump like going from fingers, sometimes, I still use it though
David
"Until KDE goes CORBA, calling its methods from any language other than C++ is undefined behavior - you're relying on a few particularly simple-minded method calling conventions, and there's nothing in the Standard to stop a better compiler from out-clevering you to death."
That doesn't follow. Python can link with C++ modules. I suspect that also all the other languages can deal with C++ modules: that really simple: they define most of time what the interface written in C should be like. Just implement the interface with "extern "C"" symbols, but C++ code and compile wrth
They're might all sort of be link, problems, but your incomplete statement is defintly FUD. Why are you spreading it ?
Really, Todd, he's just identifying you so folks know who Todd Lewis is.
I know when I see a quote from someone I've never heard of my first question is "who IS this guy?" And who they are affects how I interpret their comment.
I'm much more likely to take Miguel de Icaza seriously, than, say, Bowie Poag.
Sorry to say "mindless.com" is a more than appropriate domain name for you!
I think your problem is you just don't want Linux to have anything to do with the commercial world. You are in the minority.
I've never said anything against commercial companies on Linux. The point is that RedHat uses FUD, false statements and threats to harm their competition. KDE is independent, as nobody doubts. Gnome is heavily funded by RedHat, which is not bad in itself. But when they exert their influence in their very own interests, and against those of the Linux community, like introducing incompatible new protocols, this is very harmful.
As for the moral standing, I like SuSE best. They make tremendous contributions to XFree, without making much noise about it. They are supporting both KDE and Gnome, without trying to control them.
And they're doing a good job as dostributor as well, instead of releasing beta versions as release versions (RedHat) or offering only minor improvements in new versions (Caldera).
If they both succeed, then I guarantee we'll see interoperability between them, even if this comes from groups outside of both projects.
This is ridiculous! You want to wait until someone "from outside" comes and does the extremely, yes most important task for Linux as desktop system, interoperability?
If Gnome doesn't cooperate, this will perhaps be good for RedHat and Miguel's self-esteem, but it will be bad for Linux and the free Unixes.
Gnome and E get killed by KDE for useability.
I just loaded the latest gnome and e, and stated playing around, ok lets iconify. Hmm fun it dumps
the icon right over the gnome toolbar, now I have to drag the icon out of the way to hit the gnome button. Ok lets maximise, it now covers the E bar at the top of the screen and the bottom is behind the gnome bar. Ok lets work with a couple open apps at once, hmm I have dick around with making sure they are visible to select them because there is no taskbar, lovely. How am I supposed to do work on this thing? Gee I know its tons of fun
to waste 12 hours messing with configs and stuggling with a absent mindly designed ui, but I have to bill for my time thank you. KDE may not be as pretty or do nifty tricks but my boss could hardly care less about anti-alising or a super-nifty aliens theme. Gnome/E will never make it on the corporate desktop and never give NT any serious competition, I hope to god RedHat is at least putting KDE on the CD
I don't know where you've been, but C is still used more than C++ (this will change over time, but right now it's true)
Your speaking of non-commercial software for (free) Unixes, right?
In larger commercial projects (with GUI) harly anyone uses C anymore (surely on Windows, but also on Unix), except for low level stuff like drivers, games, number-crunching (rather fortran) etc.
The reason why C is still popular on fre Unixes is that gcc/g++ is a lousy C++ compiler, and before egcs coding in C++ meant 'stick to the basic features of C++', which relativizes the advantages of C++ abstraction possibilities.
But that's yesterday's news...
So C and COBOL have probably more in common than you think...
RedHat denies us the choice,
no, they don't. If you don't like RedHat, USE ANOTHER FUCKING DISTRO.
get it? if RedHat comes to completely dominate the commercial linux market (not all that unlikely) and if (considerably less likely) they start an embrace-and-destroy policy like MS, then so what? look at it like this: linux is gaining on windows, right? the incompatibilities between any linux distro and windows are far, far greater than any incompatibilities that could possibly be introduced between RedHat and, say, Debian. so if it's impossible to lock people into windows vs. linux, then it's gonna be way, way less possible to lock people into one linux vs. another.
personally i'd hate to see RedHat start behaving badly, but they really couldn't do very much damage. and the fact is, they're paying free software developers to do a cool GPL'd project (GNOME) and then they're playing by the rules of the FS community: we get the code. in my book, that's okay. and you can always use KDE if you don't like GNOME, or you can just not bother with a "desktop" at all. use plain old twm if you like, or just get naked with the 80x25 CLI.
most importantly, in my book, RedHat is unrepentantly GNU-positive and GPL-purist. i'll never countenance or participate in any holy wars against people who of their own free will choose not to be stallmanic purists, but i choose to be one myself. i also find it gratifying to know that when eric raymond's ego finally gets so far out of control that he becomes a purely destructive force (and this is inevitable IMHO), there will still be a center, and the center will hold. it is my personal opinion that if stallman and the FSF are successfully marginalized, the movement will be in deep shit.
bah. You can get .deb files of gnome, cvs of gnome, rpm of gnome, and like you said, .tgz of gnome. Perhaps you should consider that gnome right now is NOT a finished product. If you don't know how to install beta software, then maybe you shouldn't be running it right now. I run debian myself, and have had no problems finding the software. Getting it to compile from cvs? that's another story. Sometimes you might get it running, sometimes not. If they took the time to help every person out there to install the *beta* software though, they would never get any work done on it!
I personally don't like the redhat distribution, I never have. Though redhat as a company has never struck me as trying to take over linux or rule with an iron fist. It seems many of the people who have come to linux are even more into conspiracy theories than I am.
Nite_Hawk
A (quasi-) monopoly is always bad,
i agree absolutely, but i don't agree that it's possible for linux to be monopolized anywhere near as badly as normal OS's
the GPL doesn't help *at all*. Linux became good because choices (of protocals etc) were made based on quality, not market share. RedHat dominance will change this.
for the reasons i gave, i really don't see how. anyway, which protocols? are they going to break TCP/IP or something? i can see microsoft trying that, but not redhat. they'll simply never be that big.
it looks to me like you're saying that there's some inherent difference between microsoft's near-monopoly of OS's in general, and a potential not-nearly-so-near dominance by redhat of linux. if that's where you're at, i can't see your reasoning at all -- though i'm more than willing to listen, as i don't claim to be fully informed about anything. it looks to me like the only way a vendor can successfully push incompatible standards is by locking people into their platform, but it's really damned hard to lock people into one linux distro instead of another. MS can do this (up to a point; have they succeeded in poisoning HTML? replacing java with activex? replacing javascript with vbscript? breaking TCP/IP? replacing MIME with a mammoth global Registry on a server in redmond, where everybody's file associations are stored? no, in all cases) but to the extent that they've succeeded, it's because you can't run windows programs on anything but windows. well, nobody is gonna get anywhere developing linux programs that absolutely must have GNOME and redhat to work. who'd bother?
personally i'd hate to see RedHat start behaving badly,
They already have. (With this article and other FUD)
the interviewee was misquoted for most of it; i dunno about the Rob Young quote, which does indeed imply that Qt is still under a license cloud (though it is unlikely-but-conceivable that it's an old quote from back when that was accurate, or else taken out of context). anyhow, the guy who was quoted for most of the article wasn't a redhat employee anyway.
RedHat is unrepentantly GNU-positive and GPL-purist
Ha, you're joking, right? They banned all GPL libraries.
they banned GPL libraries from where? doesn't GNOME use GTK and whatever comes with gcc? i didn't know that GTK and gcc weren't GPL'd. this is very disappointing. i can't find the announcement on their web site; do you have a URL?
Yes, I have no life.
X
I really should follow these threads closer. I keep responding after the thread is all but deceased. (And this is not a direct message to the person who posted the comment this response sits under; it's for the hate-post people out there. You know who you are.)
Caldera Systems (the company I work for) has decided to go with KDE. We are backing it because we believe it is currently a good alternative and is a closer fit for our needs.
Where you people get the idea that Drew was saying "nobody should use GNOME" or "everyone has to back KDE because we say so" is beyond me. I read the article, and I know Drew from working with him. He merely stated that we will be using KDE, and why. This is wrong?
I'm sorry, but this forum (Slashdot.org) is degenerating into a libelous FUDfest. You people (the ones participating in the hate-posts) need to learn a little history about the REAL Linux community; the one that I started in back in 1991, when we ALL promoted Linux without religion, without stupid wars over favorite this-that-or-others, when we all worked toward commercial acceptance of Linux, etc.
Most of you people like tooting the horn for the "Linux community", waving around the GPL like it's a holy scripture, while many of you have never even sat down and read the damn thing. You say that everyone in the "Linux community" has to subscribe to your point of view, at the same time trashing companies like Caldera for allegedly saying the same thing (we never say anything of the sort, by the way, and I defy anyone out there to find a shred of evidence that we EVER have). Freedom of choice is what you toot, but I'll be damned if I hear any freedom of choice in what you are demanding.
If you do not like Caldera, don't support us. If you don't like KDE, don't use it. It's amazing how simple this is, guys. This freedom of choice you claim to be experts on allows many different options to exist for Linux, including ones you personally may not care for. Deal with it. If you like being told what to do, use Windows. The rest of us want REAL freedom of choice, and are willing to allow options to exist, unlike some of you.
Now get back to supporting Linux and stop this idiocy before you kill us all...
Erik Ratcliffe
Caldera Systems Education Services
erik@caldera.com
Strange, I personally run about a half dozen Linux boxes and all I type
make dep && make clean && make && make bzImage
&& make install && make modules && make
modules-install
and everything turns out fine.
Icewm is really a nice WM to run with GNOME. It understands the panels size, so when you maximize windows, it wonder cover over it so I run IcwWM without its own taskbar and use the gnome pager instead. Using the lighter themes like metal and thin-ice for gtk and a fast window manager like icewm work fine with 32mb. It also lets gmc take over the root window.
I hope when Redhat ships with gnome, they have an included icewm setup to support gnome (you have to setup gnome support manually when you compile like with WindowMaker)
And most the people using them have very little object-oriented know-how, so even when using C++ they are actually programming C-style.
// as comment, you're using C++.
As soon as you use new, delete or even
But you absolutely got the point: When people say C vs. C++, they often mean procedural vs OO programming.
C++ is definitely better for OOP, as it provides standardised mechanism for that (even if those are apparently worse than in e.g. Objective C).
Gnome does OOP as well, but they have their own way of doing it, which is different from Netscape's (Navigator is also in C).
Even with 'conventional' coding, I'd never use pure ANSI C, as C++ provides nice type checking and mem management features even for C-style coding.
But I can assure you that making a desktop standard based on C++ and not at least providing hooks for C programmers is the best way to kill it immediately.
Obviously this didn't happen in KDE's case, and I'll tell you why: Comp Sci guys have to learn OOD/OOP, so they have no problem with it.
Many developers know MFC (earn money!) which is C++ and OO.
As the arguments against C++ are rather such against OOP, people usually don't need C anymore once they know OO principles.
Another point: KDE is mostly the GUI, so people write their algorithms in C (like in kfourier) and build a GUI around it from ktemplate. In the future, this will be even more automated with kdevelop and shaman.
Still not convinced? C bindings are already in the works. It took so long as there was "no real demand" as KDE developers said...
One day, I hope C++ will be dominant. Java has its niche, but it's really not a competitor
Where does your experience come from? C++ really IS dominant in the corporate world, and Java is *enormously* successful behind the scenes. Huge companies migrate their whole business software towards Java. Don't forget that all the big guys (IBM,Oracle,HP,SAP) are backing it.
Anyway, I think a desktop based on C++ natively has big advantages for developers coming from a Windows/MFC background, which may be very important in the future.
Personally, I think that Gnome has its priorities pretty well in place.
Some would complain that usability of the desktop is the priority, but that's a short-sighted approach.
Yes, getting Imlib working probably has slowed the development E. On the other hand, it provides a simple single API for accessing any graphics format, which preforms intelligent color-mapping and dithering.
The same is true with the development of esd, fnlib, gnome-print, etc, etc.
The GNOME team has provided us with a clean usable foundation for writing applications. Now that the API is frozen, I expect to even more applications arrive than already exist.
Just curious...
;)
Having Linux for lunch. Uhm, 2.2pre6 is *very* spicy
my brand new acronymn-of-the-week
meta file information (kind of registry), not accessible from cmd line tools
yikes! are you serious? that's idiotic. if this is happening, i'd like to hear what kind of rationale they have. then again, if you can get to something programmatically, you can write any command line tool you like. e.g. i once wrote a win32 command line interface for the windows clipboard. just because the vendor neglects to include obvious things doesn't mean you can't fill in the gap yourself.
as for the rest of your post:
Debian has no default environment. Currently it has developers working with TT in order to come up with a final DSFG compliant version of the QPL, then both will be included in main.
Ignorance is annoying...
Lurker is not (and has never been) a perjorative word.
It's just a old USENET term that applies to folks who mostly read and (almost)never post... the term has been in use (in a non-offensive way) since the early days of the net (pre-web, post-Flintstone)
>>The term "lurker" offends me.
So I don't see what the whole stupid argument
is about. You get both (providing Qt 2.0 is out
in time). So it'll be just the same as SuSE are
doing. Two desktops shipped, you pick your personal favourite.
Now if it was Microsoft you'd have one desktop and
it would be mysteriously integrated ito the OS and
unchangeable
They lost the claim that "Hey, this is beta code" when commercial backers like RH started promoting it to places like InfoWorld and started knocking the real desktop alternatives like KDE.
If you want to be treated like a real desktop alternative, like the Gnome project obviously wants to be, then you have to be up to snuff.
MFC . . . is C++ and OO.
.), and half the time they're not documenting the interface; they're documenting the implementation. half of what i know about MFC came from being rudely surprised by asserts and then reading the comment next to the asserts in the MFC source. it is simply not possible to treat MFC classes as black boxes (as it is, for example, possible to treat borland's VCL classes as black boxes -- hell, what passes for classes in visual basic has better abstraction).
HCC (Hope, Certainty, and Confidence)! IMHO this is like the opposite of FUD, but with a somewhat related effect.
i fight against MFC every day at work. it's barely C++, and it's barely OO. there is virtually no abstraction at all. the documentation is minimal (not a flaw in and of itself, but read on . .
MFC is so infested with (and dependent on) public data members that there is absolutely no possibility that it could ever be turned into an well-designed class library. the only solution is to junk the whole sick mess and start over.
MFC binds to GUI objects via the C API in such gruesome and unhealthy ways that it frequently breaks inheritance through kludgy message-handling crap. this is inevitably going to be a problem with such class libraries; it's just not possible to keep the programmer from handling messages on his own. however, MFC depends on this horrible wart for a lot of its functionality.
there is a depressing number of non-virtual functions which absolutely should be virtual. (the VCL suffers to a far lesser extent from the same syndrome, but it does suffer too).
MFC makes it very difficult to use abstract base classes; doing so breaks some MFC features for the classes involved. out of the box it won't allow multiple inheritance either; IIRC i once found a similar workaround for that also.
MFC (like the win32 c API) depends on blind typecasts in all kinds of weird and unsafe directions.
the MFC source code is full of goto's (ick! okay, some people who i respect find them useful at times, though i personally have never found anything that couldn't be done better in a structured way. those "people who i respect" are all a lot more experienced than i, too -- but none of them uses goto's when there's a better option, while MFC uses goto's as a first resort).
Look at the KDE CVS and FTP vs Gnomes...
all of you stallman-ass-kissers can say what you want, but you should get your facts straight first.
i will die for your freedom to say what you want even if its socalist bullshit, and that's why you should shut the fuck up RIGHT NOW before i KICK YUOR ASS>
if any of your were paying attention to what your herors at red hat are doing you wouldn know what im saying. it has been announced several times by Rob Young at red hat (and covered in major news outlets whihc you don't see cause you read slashdot all the time) that he has concluded a deal with kofi annan and the UN which will make it schoolkids in the US forced at gunpoint by the UN Army of Africa to pay for red hat and only use red hat in schools. then they will when they grow up have to join the UN Army and die for the mendicant nations of africa. KDE at least gives you the choice of yoru money going to white men.
thjis is the new world Order you Stupid Reds and your Red hat is a sTupid Red of the New WOrld Order taking our freedoms from the constiution and supporting the Income Tax for Internatial Welfare.
you will all be miscegenated Bastards if you don't lissen to this warning he gave! you are wrong! don't let me haev to be in the world order making me a slave! you are all GNU looters and relativists!
bastards!
it's an acronism! this is what tehy dont want you to knwo:
G iant
N ew [world]
O rder
M onolithic
E mpire
so you can see that this is not just some rant, could that be a coincidence? i think not!
--pat
BSD is a hermetic sign meaning many different thingss in every age of the earth, but in the present epoch it primarily means "Belaboring Satan's Dominions" and "Broken [tcp/ip] Stack Defeater"
linux is "xunil" spelled backwards, the name of a senior demon in mayan mythology. read the Popol Vuh if you really want to know what's going on in the UN. it's all pretty obvious if you just open your eyes and think a little about what things mean.
regards,
leo vole.
Yea I agree here, the screenshots look pretty and inticing, but the system itself is nearly useless. The KDE 1.0 betas (at least the ones i tried, [2,3,4]) were more functional than the latest e/gnome I tried (0.99.1). Personally I use windowmaker with KDE apps.
A CD-distribution today without the KDE
system is in my sense an inferior release.
(btw, I decide for my company what to buy of
Linux stuff. The one thing I look for is ease
of use - not for me, but for other users)
asdf
ha
take THAT
see? it's the New WOrld Order after all.
There are more Windows apps than Linux apps.
There are ENOUGH GTK+\GNOME apps tho
and its still 1.0. Must be some great software.
/. or what started this thread? Guys like this one I envision to be the typical Klansman. Conspirationists, blargh (sounds a lot like 'communists' - maybe thats the real conspiration...)
Oh, BTW: did KKK invade
Yes i have used gnome and like kde more. since kde and gnome copy windows who copied mac etc, i am unhappy they did so at such a memory penalty. bottom line is one of my computers a cyrix 200 with only 24mb ram an 95 runs apps faster then my k6 233 w 80mb ram. yes in a sense its apples in oranges but when i try to push linux as a desktop non technies pick up on this right away. bottom line is reliabilty doesn't always mean everything.
There are many more KDE apps than plain QT.
I'm not even going to read these post. Why does it have to be that everytime someone mentions KDE or GNOME we get all this FUD from all sides? I thought it had stoped or atleast gone down considerably. But I guess I was wrong. If you don't like KDE/GNOME then use GNOME/KDE if you don't like either then don't use either. RH is not 'evil.' If you don't like distro x use yzw... or your own.
I bet most people don't like this FUD (they just don't post), and I'm glad some people take the time to try to stop it.
For those of who still want to waste our time with FUD maybe you'll wake up - some day.
Snoop
(1) Stability
(2) Giant Icons! 1 Giant Icon choice is stupid.
Maybe if Raster, etc wasn't using a 21 inch
monitor like the rest of the world the Gnome
panel might be usable.
There are a ton of GTK apps, some that have no counterpart in Qt (like XQF, the quake server browser). They just aren't part of GNOME.
And remeber, there are lot's of stale modules, and modules not in the CVS servers
That's only workable if every Python compiler produces intermediate code and runs it through your C++ compiler of choice. (Do they? I can't tell offhand. I know some languages are implemented that way.)
Do Qt and KDE both do this throughout? Sorta kills the claims they make about using a C++ interface being more convenient....
Because if enough ignorant programmers assume there's One True Way to implement passing a reference, calling a method, mangling a name, or instantiating a template, C++ compilers will never be able to improve their calling conventions and thus will suck forever.
"Achtung. To take a break from the panel, I'm helping Tim Gerla write Achtung, the gnome presentation proggie
and... ??
"Gnome Panel. Lately I've been hacking on gnome panel code. I've rewritten most parts of the code a few times already."
gee, that wouldn't be necessary if they could just copy KDE and get the features they wanted, would it...
"The GNOME Fish, or Wanda The Fish, the most important GNOME app to date. look at a screenshot and be amazed."
that's sarcasm, you ass
"The GNOME Search Tool, The "next generation" searchtool for gnome, this one actually seems to work correctly, has a better more intuitive
interface and more options."
so the first search tool, which is no longer being used, sucked. and, again, your point is... ??
"Genius Calculator, an arbitrary precision calculator."
"Gnome Calculator, Double precision calculator, it's basically a ripoff of xcalc's standard mode which in turn is a ripoff of TI-30. "
i don't recall kde having an arbitrary precision calculator...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Rawhide site is not to be equated with the RedHat distribution (i.e., RedHat-tested RPMs that will appear on RedHat CDs.) We need to stay vigilant that KDE doesn't get buried, now that it's former licensing problems have been handled. Mind you, I say "vigilant," and NOT "militant." steweb@concentric.net
god, i'm so glad i'm not the only one . . .
...
What exactly do you think the "pre6" qualification
does? that's right, marks it as a development
release.
The dislike of Motif is probably one of the
few things the KDE vs. GNOME camps can agree on.
"What you describe with the C interfaces is basically writing a C binding for your C++ program/library."
Yes. Except that when you are linking another language with C code you have to write an wrapper anyway. You don't just link your C libraries with Perl or Python. You have to write wrappers. What I said is that these wrappers, even when their interface is in "C" style, can perfectly call C++ functions. The amount of work is the same for C or C++. For Python which is a OO language, you have even an obvious mapping between C++ objects and Python objects (and even SWIG can generate automatically the wrappers for C++ code): thus you can reuse directly the documentation: if in C++ you have to write button.setLabel("my label"), then in Python you'll write button.setLabel("my label").
"a little history about the REAL Linux community; the one that I started in back in 1991"
Oh, so you single handedly started the linux movment now did you?
Did you wirte the kernel too?
Huh?
Uhm. Give me one major Linux vendor promoting and pre-announcing 2.2 as much as RH is promoting Gnome.
Also Linux 2.2pre is much more complete a project than Gnome (ie: everything works without core-dumping).
Also, last time I looked RedHat was not lying about Linux competitors like it lies about Gnome competitors, although I may be wrong about that.
Get a life, you certainly can't argue a point.
No, I did not write the kernel; I just use it.
My Linux tenure started with kernel 0.11, back in the days when you could count Linux users world-wide in the hundreds -- maybe thousands -- not millions. Most of the people I hear thrashing others over religious issues and GUI stuff started with a recent pre-1.0 kernel (0.99 or better) long after distributions came into existence. It's an old school versus new school thing.
I don't begrudge anyone for moving toward Linux. But I do get peeved when I see lots of people waving around the GPL (the same license that allows everyone to have access to software, not just certain individuals Slashdot-ers approve of) like they have a clue what's in it, and I get even MORE peeved when I hear these comparative newcomers step up to a pulpit and claim that they are the experts on what Linux is all about.
Linus is all for world domination for Linux. That includes commercial application development, multitudes of GUIs, freedom of choice, etc.
That is what the original Linux community is all about. That is the community I align myself with.
What I see happening more and more often here flies in the face of Linus' philosophy. Guys, Linus *invented* Linux. If anyone knows what Linux is all about, it's him.
Am I the only one who thinks this doesn't make sense? Do I need to use the Chewbacca Defense to make my point any more clear? Hmmm...
Anyway... Disagree if you want, but I maintain that the people who were around in the "old days" of Linux have a better grasp of the potential of Linux than some of the newcomers (not all, but some) who seem to be Hell-bent on limiting Linux rather than allowing it to grow.
I guess you had to be there...
Erik Ratcliffe
erik@calderasystems.com
...is that Red Hat still claims in their web site that distributing KDE is immoral and illegal.
And yet they do it themselves.
Says a lot about them (and all it says is bad)
for no good reason, especially now with the Qt
license change.
RedHat is the main Linux vendor, and their choice
of desktop will have a large effect.
Some of us scratch our heads at RedHat's strange
crusade against the most functional Linux desktop
environment, in favor of something that, while it
may turn out to be quite good eventually, isn't
even close at this point.
The problem/advantage (depending on how you look at it) with LGPL is that if a library is under the LGPL it does not make something dynamically linked against it (L)GPL'd, as the GPL would.
:)
. . . which suits the torvaldian world domination stragety [sic] somewhat better than that of the stallmanic liturgy, but if stallman is doing it i think it's safe to assume that he's okay with that. i mean, i don't get the impression that stallman is much prone to doing things that he doesn't want to
peace and blessings to 'em both. shantih, shantih, shantih. and a happy new year to both the KDE and GNOME developers.
"I say to you: Make perfect your will.
I say: Take no thought for the harvest,
But only of proper sowing."
the Terran New World Wrestling Order Federation will eat your lunch and pee in your cheerios. The End is Nigh! what i'm trying to say is don't bother paying the electric bill, but you should still feed the cat.
you've been warned.
That's what CORBA DII (dynamic invocation interface) is for - stuff these CORBA-compliant typed values in an argument list, pass them to a named method of a CORBA object, and handle the returned value or exception. Java class objects provide similar facilities.
Going any lower-level than that would be an unmitigated disaster. The whole point of C++ is that the compiler knows about methods and pass-by-reference and all that stuff, and can implement it better than you would. Some of the Java JIT folks have already figured out common situations on modern processors where vtbls are slower than a switch on a type field. The moment you standardize implementation details (like message->method binding, returning composites by value, which registers the calling conventions use, or how exceptions are thrown) you forbid all other implementations. CORBA and Java are willing to do in the name of interoperability, but we need at least one language that doesn't for the sake of performance, and IMHO C++ is it.
A friend of mine told me my name had popped up on Slashdot again, so, I had to read it.. :)
:) But since youve dragged my name into this mess, i'll offer you my opinion on things in hopes it might shed some light on your thinking.
On the issue of..
"I'm much more likely to take Miguel de Icaza seriously, than, say, Bowie Poag"
First of all, you'de be surprised how much effort I put into ensuring that you don't take me seriously.
Miguel can do what he likes, just the same as you can do what you like, and RedHat can do what it likes. It really doesn't matter.
Here's a free cluepon for you: In the end, the huge, huge majority of people will still remain sheep, no matter how long they resist the urge to follow. You'll likely end up jogging along with the rest of the flock, going "Baaa-a-a-a-a" whether you like it or not.
What Red Hat includes in their distrib is their choice. Its your choice whether or not you actually use it..Follow the flock or blaze your own path. The fact that Red Hat includes GNOME doesnt restrict your freedom in any way, so, what are you complaining about? Nobodys cracking a whip over you, and nobody is forcing your hand.
In other words, your time would be better spent work to fix things you dont like, instead of bitching about it. Jeezus. The 90's were filled to the *#&@'ing brim with whinings and complaints just like yours--People screaming bloody murder about how theyre having their freedoms taken away, when that isnt the case at all. Don't add to the chorus of idiots. Do something different.
Bowie
PROPAGANDA - http://shycgf.chem.arizona.edu
Because if they don't they will start losing customers in droves.
I feel the same way about RedHat, but no matter how much I want to hate them, I can't. They contribute a lot to Linux and to the OSS community in general, and what they do isn't all bad. I hate RPM, and I don't like RedHat as a distribution, but I don't hate RedHat. They're bringing new people, and therefore new ideas to Linux which is good. They're paying OSS developers, which is good. They're bringing new software to the world, not just to RedHat, and the source code is available. Which is good. Caldera are probably more reprehensible than RedHat, but I don't hate them either... go figure.
If you don't like them, don't use their distribution, go for something UNIX-ish like Slackware, and run KDE if you really want to piss them off.
First, I am not an Anonymous Coward, I'm just on someone else's machine and my password doesn't leap to mind.
The KDE/GNOME war is probably the largest fracture in the Linux community. First of all, this article apparently was written on the glossed over and somewhat misunderstood information of one contact. Why accuse RedHat of spreading FUD?
People have begun to become unreasonable about this issue. Begun? What am I saying, they already are. Choice is the essence of the Linux community. This situation with two competing environments is not bad...it's good! Yes, I would like to see them compatible, but that is not the case. Stop worrying about it.
RedHat has chosen to make GNOME/E their default desktop? Fine and good, I like GNOME. Caldera chose KDE as the default? Alright, I like KDE as well. We just happen to use RedHat here, so using the same starting point as others around you can be a useful practice. For my part I just run Window Maker. I just want something good looking to run my xterms under.
Please stop the flamewar, and get your feet back on the ground. If you prefer GNOME, then contribute to GNOME. If you prefer KDE, then contribute to KDE. If you are like me and just want your xterms to run nicely and behave themselves, contribute to what you think will benefit the most from your contribution and interests you.
Frederick Ross, a.k.a. Sgath
fred@ls.net, http://www.ls.net/~fred/homepage/
--
--
Just lurking, thanks!
With regards to this, I would expect most people to fall on one of these sides:
As for me, I'm pretty much in the first group. In my desktop I run 2 big xterms, 2 netscape windows and a big emacs. I use Window Maker there because of the all the cool dock apps, the clean, elegan look, and a bunch of other nice features. (I could write pages about WM; I won't here.)
In my laptop, which is a 486-50 with 24MB RAM and a 200 MB HDD, I run something lighter-- wm2. I just run an xclock, an xterm, an emacs, and xdvi there. I like that window manager very much-- it is very light on disk space (like 50k), and has a very pretty look.
One thing I like about these window managers, and this is in reply to a comment in this thread, is that they pretty much work out of the box without editing many config files. You can set most Window Maker configuration options from the GUI, and it looks really good in the default config (that's all I run, I mucked around with other presets but they're for the most part ugly). And wm2 has no config files of any sort; if you want to change its configuration, you have to edit the source ;-).
I've also tried olvwm and icewm, and find them nice, though not as practical as Window Maker or small as wm2. twm, fvwm, 9wm and E I didn't like at all.
I've tried KDE beta 3, beta 4, 1.0 and pre1.1-alpha1. I find it is too big and slow for what I do. The look didn't bother me at all, unlike many quite vocal people-- it is a very practical look, although not the cleanest or most elegant, compared to my faves.
---
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/
Next time, try doing a search for Linux + Mandrake.
Posted by OGL:
Yet Another KDE/GNOME Flamewar on Slashdot. You people need to get a grip. If you don't like software X that distribution Y provides, then don't install it. If you want something else, download that instead. I don't know if any of you have been using Linux since before today, but usually distros don't carry every piece of software specifically tuned to YOUR exact needs. I like GNOME, and I like KDE. I run them both at the same time and they work great together. Conclusion? You people need to shut up and code. Yelling and screetching about this nonsense won't help your favorite desktop, and it sure as hell won't help Linux. If you do want to help Linux, email the creators of the desktop you DON'T like and tell them what is wrong and how they can improve it. That's all I have to say I suppose. KDE/GNOME forever.
-W.W.
Enlightenment is not the only gnome-compliant window manager these days... currently, enlightenment, icewm, windowmaker (sorta), and scwm(i think?) are...with more to follow. :)
-herb
your mom!
except opendoc is huge and bloated and a bitch to implement ... if you have specific ideas ... look at baboon and contribute them
Not to mention that the gnome panel sucks ... I mean it SUCKS ... it's huge and it looks like windows95 ... not to mention that it crashes all the time .... and midnight commander sucks ... and enlgightenment really really sucks and it's a bloated piece of crap and it's the only windowmanager for gnome ....!!!! And redhat is just doing this because they want to control linux ... and miguel is a really bad coder ... he couldn't code his way out of a paper bag ... just like the rest of the gnome team ... they're just a bunch of incompetent asses that just want to be famous and couldn't think of another thing to work on so they stole all the ideas from kde ... what a bunch of loosers
no he's not
I read slashdot!!!
you suck
RH denies freedom of choice? My stock RH5.2 came with at least three window managers that I could readily find. If I don't want one, I rpm -e it. Same will go for GNOME - if you don't want it, rpm -e. No mess, no fuss, it doesn't screw up the whole OS like MS claims removing IE will. The only thing restricting your freedom to choose is your ignorance of the available choices.
Problems with OpenDoc now however are more legal/political:
- the OMG isn't doing a lot with OpenDoc lately. IBM & Sun have pressured them to be very focused on JavaBeans. My impression is that the while the compound-document CORBA spec will probably remain OpenDoc, the enterprise component model will resemble language-independent Enterprise JavaBeans.
In other words, don't expect anything amazing from the OMG re: OpenDoc. CORBA on the desktop doesn't seem to be a primary goal anymore.
- OpenDoc is 'considered' dead. IBM/Apple don't develop for it anymore. The web turned out to be an easier to use & distribute compound-document solution [though it's a very crude/primitive one at that]. Once HTML took over, it became rather hard to push "Programmatic Compound Documents!" when HTML+Java+Plug-ins were doing just that (again, primitively, but the declarative perspective vs. imperative really is what caught people's eyes...)
- OpenDoc should be released open source so the community can continue leveraging its wonderful ideas, but IBM's policy so far is just to freely distribute the toolkit.. you can't yet extend the sourcecode legally. This sucks, and is what REALLY is leading to NiH syndrome. Ditto for IBM's Taligent technology: there's a lot of stuff left over from CommonPoint that really should be made free.
-Stu
"Gnome is a work in progress, and we would be better served to expand [KDE] rather than build an alternative."
Fuck you, Caldera. I'm not interested in serving *your* needs. You should go into another business since you haven't a clue what Linux is about.
I took the "we" in "we would be better served if..." to mean the entire Linux community. I apologize if I took it wrong, but it was a little ambiguous.
Still, I think it's a mildly FUDish thing to say.
GNOME is a work in progress because it started later. So they should just say, "We went with KDE because that's what is available now," rather than dismissing efforts by a large part of the community.
When I see Todd thursday, I'll slap him for saying that.
But it would be great if Gnome does mimic OLE...it would make for great interoperability.
This is a beatiful example of "I don't care what you say about me, as long as you spell my name right." Whether we as Linux users disagree about choice of software components is irrelevant. The underlying message is that Linux users have more choice. Arguing over a choice that others simply do not have is a luxury. If articles like this teach mainstream users that Linux gives them choices, it's a good thing, even if we're in the midst of criticizing some of the options.
I think not...(*poof*)
The advantage of Linux is that if you don't like what one Linux vendor comes out with, you can go vote with your dollars for another Linux vendor, plain and simple. You can't do that with Microsoft since they are the sole supplier of the OS.
So if you don't like Red Hat's decision not to include KDE with their version of Linux badly enough, complain to Red Hat and tell them that you're switching to another Linux vendor that will include KDE with their product.
If enough people do that, then Red Hat will relent. Its called competition, the free market, what you will. It is what keeps Red Hat or any other Linux vendor from charging $600 for the operating system and $100 for upgrades, the fact that other Linux vendors will compete, that the OS itself is freely available.
Red Hat can't control the market. It can try to lead the market and encourage standards but it can't force them the way that Microsoft did.
Onto the eternal GNOME/KDE flamewar, the average computer users don't want or need a choice of desktops and window managers. Or rather, what they want is a well established default setting that they can live with and not have to tamper with.
Red Hat and others realize this, and plan to establish GNOME and eventually some associated window manager as the default choice. Power users can go and use something else if it pleases them but the average user just wants to stick the CD-ROM in and have a nice desktop appear at the end of the process and not have to make a choice.
Choices scare the average end user, especially when they don't know the options involved or what it will cost them. They want good choices made for them already and in time if they don't like them, they can go modify them.
Computer manufacturers are also in the same boat. Most of them will need to come up with some sort of standardized installation for machines that they pre-install Linux on. Odds are good that it will end up being GNOME/Enlightenment as the default desktop.
Choice is important, but defaults are important too.
I am moderately displeased with this article.
I think that the author was in a little over
his head for the subject matter. I know that
I did not say that GNOME "is multilingual and
language-independent". As for the OLE stuff, I
really did try to explain it to him, but when he
asked me what OLE stood for I realized that we
had a problem. He didn't include any of the other
9 reasons to run GNOME which I explained to him;
I think he was short of time. When he called me "a technical manager at ISP MindSpring", I felt like replying back, "I don't call you reporter at magazine Infoworld!" Alas.
"Comparing DCOM and CORBA okay, but hearing
that "Gnome mimics Microsoft's OLE by using CORBA" drive me nuts !
Except that it's (almost) true. GNOME has Baboon, an interface which is built on top of CORBA but modeled after OLE, which allows one to embed other apps within their own, in much the same way you can have a live Excel chart in a Word doc under windows.
I wish that people would investigate this stuff before just flaming away on it.
Except that when Miguel asked if he could do just
that, he was told that KOM was someone's masters
thesis, and therefore they were not accepting any
changes to the architecture, since half of the
thesis was already written based on the already-
extant arch.
I don't blame the KDE or the GNOME folks for the
fact that their are two different architectures.
I do blame some of the people here for being morons about the whole matter.
Is Baboon OpenDoc compatible or interoperable? As I understand it, OpenDoc is the architecture OMG is developing for the CORBA 3.0 spec. There's probably gonna be alot more developers who become familiar with OpenDoc if only because it will be available for just about all the systems. It'd be nice if Linux was one of these, and if GNOME was the one to do it (maybe it could be implemented using the Baboon API underneath).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Right now there is no selection of window managers in Gnome. You are supposed to launch your window manager before the GNOME session manager.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I've tried other wms like Enlightenment. E's not ready for my likes yet, perhaps when it reaches version 1. I haven't tried WM or icewm. I like fvwm2 for just about everything I need. If it were made GNOME-compliant (hell KDE-compliant too but I don't use that so I don't care about it) that would be great. I took a look at the fvwm2gnome site and it doesn't seem to me they're actually making the window manager GNOME-compliant, just providing configs that work well with GNOME.
;-), there would be no question for me. BTW, I agree, RedHat's fvwm95 config for fvwm2 bites. I change it right away to my tried and true config. RedHat needs to realize that you don't have to make the wm look (even vaguely) like winXX to make it easy for people to transition (note that the default E theme now looks kinda like winXX). They'd probably have more luck making it look like mwm (which I also don't like, but which many Unix users are at least familiar with).
If fvwm2 were GNOME-compliant (and if it could scale icons to become mini-icons
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
ftp://rawhide.redhat.com:
/i386/RedHat/RPMS:
kdeadmin-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdebase-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdegames-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdegraphics-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdelibs-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdemultimedia-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdenetwork-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdenonbeta-1.1-1pre.i386.rpm
kdesupport-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
kdeutils-1.1-2pre.i386.rpm
so there
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I had to download a workable version of GNOME. DAMN THOSE REDHAT ROGUES!
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
CDE is more popular than KDE. Yet you can't even *download* that, you have to spend $$ for it (and it sucks nonetheless).
If you don't like RedHat, vote with your dollars, not with your hot air. Go get SuSe or OpenLinux etc. etc. When you own RedHat, then you can make decisions for them. In the meantime, if you don't like what they provide or don't provide, don't use them and stop whining about it. This ain't windows, you have plenty of choices of distribution, you can even roll your own. Tell your friends not to use it. Who cares!
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Seems like you need a history lesson. GNOME was not started by RedHat, RedHat simply hire some GNOME developers to help support the project.
It seems to me if anyone is dividing the Linux community (btw I never knew it was united), it's the idiots who flame everything they don't like for Linux. I don't use KDE, I prefer GNOME, but I don't go around flaming KDE.
BTW, Debian have chosen GNOME too. Oh, they must be trying to dominate the standards. So clueless...no wonder you have to post anonymously.
Doesn't Linus control Linux? Doesn't Bruce Perens and the LSB control Linux standards? Nope. As long as a project is *open source* no one can control it. Or were you too busy hopping on whatever the latest bandwagon happens to be.
Get a life.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Well put. It's a shame that the idiots who replied before me (and I say idiots not to flame, but because they don't seem to be able to read more than a paragraph before they jump to conclusions...shows a lack of intelligence to me) just didn't seem to get what you were saying.
Here's a message to them: IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT....DON'T USE IT!!
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
to do somethingthe RedHat way (e.g. to follow some other RedHat 'standard'), it will be difficult to rewrite the whole stuff in another manner.
I'm not sure what you mean. You just said SuSE even had better GNOME integration than RedHat. Why is RedHat suddenly the target of everyone's disdain; that everyone assumes RedHat is out to control Linux. They have never made a proprietary change to Linux...they can't because it's all under GPL. Do you think Miguel (who, by the way, IS the head of GNOME) would allow GNOME to be un-workable in other distributions?
This is all just a backlash against commercial involvement into Linux (not necessarily on your part, but a general sentiment abounds). But interoperability between the commercial world and the Linux world is necessary if Linux is to grow anywhere beyond where it is now. That doesn't mean Linux becomes commercial, it means the business models of companies will change. RedHat and other companys, such as SuSE, are wonderful examples of this. They just don't package up and redistribute Linux, they make meaningful contributions to it, and they are open source nonetheless. RedHat felt that GNOME was important enough to the growth of Linux that they should take a direct role in supporting it. Does Caldera actually hire KDE developers? You know, us programmers have to eat too. I think getting paid for producing open source software is just about the best job one can get. Some people apparently want us to get paid by companies to produce proprietary programs, then expect us to come home at night and spend all *our* time making programs for *them*, so that they can feel happier using software that a company never was affiliated with. Those folks need to wake up. The rest of us need to ignore them in the meantime and stop believing *their* FUD. Open source will change the commercial world, as long as the clueless folks don't destroy open source first. Again, I'm not directing this to you, but to the many folks who took this article as an opurtunity to gather attention in their meaningless lives by flaming RedHat/GNOME/KDE/GTK+/Qt/LinuxWorld/whatever.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Ever try a comparison? Note that the poster didn't say that GTK had more language bindings than Qt, he merely stated that C++ is harder to bind other languages to than C, which is absolutely, positively true. C++'s mangled names and virtual function lookups are not covered by standards, meaning that C++ libraries on the *same* platform, compiled with different compilers probably won't work. How can you write Perl bindings for a library when you can't predict the name-mangled symbol names?
This is all coming from a C++ programmer. I don't like using C, but I recognize C++'s deficiencies.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Incorrect sir. Debug info is embedded into the program itself. The OS does not strip this info when you aren't debugging. If it did, it'd take forever to load the program.
Therefore, at the minimum, debugging stuff makes the program more bloated in memory.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Isn't your mommy calling you? Don't you have better things to do than waste our times with your rants? Everyone has an ego, especially you it seems.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
That's funny, I didn't know RedHat owned Infoworld. Oh...wait you must be right because your reasoning is in bold. I am so sorry what was I thinking?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Well if RedHat or SuSE or Caldera, et al. can make a business out of distributing and developing open source software, then *what's the problem*?
As to the Infoworld article, it was misquoted. Blame that on Infoworld instead of jumping to conclusions.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
You'd be a wise fool.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Don't forget about Visual Basic. Love it or hate it, lots of people use it (not on Linux, but nonetheless..)
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Well at this point I was more speaking to the community at large who wants to simply flame RedHat. If you took my arguments personally I apologize.
I have no problem with someone criticizing RedHat or any other company for things they include or don't include in their distribution, as long as those criticisms are valid. You said that RedHat was doing the Linux community a great disservice by not including KDE. These are strong words, and I made the point that if they are so far in the wrong, then don't use them and don't advocate their use. Posting your complaints to Slashdot isn't going to get you anywhere. If you honestly want to help RedHat, send them your suggestions and indicate why you don't use them and why your friends were dissapointed with their copies, etc.
The fact is that if RedHat makes a bad choice about something, they are doing a disservice to themselves. In Windowsland, people may get used to the Microsoft or nothing aproach, but if they want to succeed in Linuxland, they have to learn that there is no single entry point. As Perl programmers say, "there's more than one way to do it."
When I started with Linux, I installed Slackware (because RedHat 4.2 wouldn't read the CD right). I purchased a large (Que) book on using Linux because, although I had some experience with Solaris, I didn't know how to administrate a system or any of that. The book came with Slackware, RedHat and Caldera, and I liked that because it gave me somewhat of a choice of which one to install. For those people who ran to CompUSA to spend $40-$50 on RedHat without doing even a little investigation, well they get what they get. It's called buyer beware. If it turns them off of Linux altogether, then perhaps they are not ready for Linux yet.
I think RedHat is doing us all a great service by supporting GNOME. Whereever your allegience lies, in the end both KDE and GNOME move Linux forward. The people working on GNOME are doing so for their own reasons. Some of them used to work on KDE some didn't. If you prefer one over the other, use it. I prefer GNOME, so I'm happy that GNOME is an alternative to KDE. Others feel differently.
In the end, RedHat makes the final decision about what's in their distribution. If you're not happy with that, or don't feel like taking the time to give them some constructive criticism, then just don't worry about it and advocate a different distribution.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Exactly how are they? Are they members of some diabolical conspiracy to make Infoworld clueless? Your rant makes no sense.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Huh? I'm paid by Xerox, so you try again. (Although I admit I wouldn't mind working for RedHat.) Anyways, if you think RedHat would waste their time and money responding to flamewars on Slashdot, then you got a lot of schooling ahead of you.
It doesn't matter who started the project, it's important who has the most influence. And that's probably RedHat. Whether they abuse their influence is a different question.Have you any proof that RedHat itself, and not just people who work on GNOME and work at RedHat, have the most influence on GNOME?
OK, you're just flaming everyone who isn't flaming KDEWhat are you talking about? I don't flame anybody. Sure I call people names sometimes, but that's because I geniunly feel that that is the way they are representing themselves (not that they are always like that, just that they came across that way). I always back my stances up with some explanation. If you thought my post was a flame, you better read Slashdot a little more often.
I don't think anyone should be flaming GNOME or KDE. If they have valid criticisms, I don't mind, but if I feel their allegations are wholly without merit (e.g. "RedHat has become bad for Linux" or "GNOME sucks" or "KDE sucks") and they cannot back them up with reasonable arguments, then I think I have the moral duty to point out their fallacies. I also don't attack them personally unless provoked.
OK, you're just flaming everyone who isn't flaming KDEI didn't say you were flaming Gnome, only that others are. You were (kinda) flaming RedHat. Although you did cite your reasons for not liking them, you failed to cite any overwhelming evidence of your allegations.
BTW, Debian have chosen GNOME too.And I believe they are planning on shipping GNOME. They may ship KDE too in the future, and that's fine, it doesn't affect me anyways because I don't use Debian. I was just pointing out that RedHat isn't the only folks using GNOME. From what I can tell, SuSE not only ships GNOME (and KDE), they actually integrate it better than RedHat.
Once KDE uses Qt 2.0 and/or the GPL issues are resolved, this isn't relevant any more.Well that was one of the motivations for GNOME wasn't it? And it *still* hasn't been resolved. As you imply, until it is resolved, it is relevant (not to me, since I don't care about Qt's licensing [other than I can't develop a commercial app using Qt without paying Troll Tech money], but apparently to Debian).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
another person's point of view....
tried to compile glibc under Slackware. even followed all the README and INSTALL notes. result? core dumps in ever glibc-linked program
installed RedHat, didn't have to try to install glibc (BTW, RedHat certainly isn't the only glibc distro). As for kernel compiling, I don't know what you were doing wrong, but I'm using RedHat 5.1 with kernel 2.2.0pre4-ac1 and it's just fine. Did it occur to you that the source of your problems was, in fact, not RedHat?
As for GNOME, I got news for you, even if you are using RedHat you're on your own. Any documentation you find there is either (a) out of date or (b) incomplete. It's because they are still in development.
Do you think the GNOME team would deliberately sabatoge their own project by making it depend on RedHat, no matter what RedHat pays (a relative few) of the developers?
As for rpm, do you know what RPM stands for? Let me tell you: "Red Hat Package Manager". Hmmmm. Nonetheless, when I was running Slackware I installed rpm and it worked fine, except that it didn't think I had any of the core packages that most rpms depend on (but there is an easy workaround for that by specifying which packages you do have in the config file).
And debian must want control because the deb packager is for Debian. And slackware must be the saints because they don't use any package manager and it's all guess-work (not to slam slackware because I liked it when I used it, only it's not glibc and that's a deficiency, IMO).
Did you ever think that these things say things like "its best to use X" because that's what they've been designed and tested for. RPM was not designed as a universal package manager (although in many regards it has become a de-facto one, due to other distros like SuSE using it), it was designed for RedHat systems (hence the name). That fact that it has grown out of its original intent is a testament to its benefits (although I won't start a flamewar by saying it's the best packager, because I don't know that it is).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Either that's a conclusion or you really are an idiot.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Maybe you oughta wait until they actually release them (E is not even version 0.15 yet) before you review them. Instead of giving Slashdot testomonials to your failures at using them, why don't you submit some bug reports and hope they fix the problem. After all, that's what developers releases are for you know.
BTW, I don't even use E because it's not up to snuff yet and I don't feel like testing it. I use fvwm2 with GNOME (which I do feel like testing).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
No it's just that alot of people act like idiots alot, not excluding myself (or yourself), and I call them on it.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Then enlighten me, which article were you referring to that said that RedHat wasn't cool and they are just making good PR and that the Infoworld "FUD article" was part of RedHat's plans?
And I'm sorry but making a statement "it is good PR to be prasied by Infoworld" is a conclusion, it doesn't refer to anything directly, therefore it's not a reference. It may be true, but it is a conclusion nonetheless. Also, "...and drop a misleading note..." is a conclusion. You have concluded that RedHat dropped a misleading note about license problems (was it misleading? are you suggesting Qt hasn't had, and don't have now, issues with their license?) and i18n support.
Then you confuse your stance by admitting that it was Infoworld's fault, but you still think RedHat dropped the misleading note? Which is it? Was it RedHat's fault for the misinformation or Infoworld's?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Again, if you think "idiot" is a flame you need to stick around and read
Will you tell me that you do what *you* want, and not what XEROX wants, at work?
I work on a project started by Xerox, funded completely by Xerox, and designed to work only with a Xerox product, and it wasn't started and maintained by a group outside of Xerox. And AFAIK, Xerox doesn't distribute open source software, nor have they modelled their business around it in any way. I don't see the correlation...I guess that's just me.
Yeah, just as the DOJ fails to provide overwhelming evidence that MS has abused it's market power...
Actually they have alot of evidence. Whether you feel its overwhelming or not is your opinion.
You're so nasty, how could you ever think I would use words like s*ck (terror!). This does sound soo much like one of these 4letter words, and I'd never use that in the american public.
Um....okay. I didn't say you said those things (except you did say the first..or did you...how would I know?) Thanks for taking my quote out of context. I doubt anybody but you and me are reading this thread so I'm not sure what you gained by it except maybe self delusion. I can only refer you to the post in question and hope you understand it without my further assistance.
But "Redhat
Well that remains to be seen. I haven't heard any good ones from you yet.
Maybe it'll take some time, but RedHat definitely has monopolistic tendencies.
Every company has monopolistic tendencies.
They're playing rough against other Linux distributors and projects, which is something new in the community (where we kill each other without
professional help).
If you could show me some proof of this. Some testamonials maybe. Maybe a little more than a misquote in an Infoworld. In the meantime, I think *I* reserve judgement.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I actually like that better than "Gimp Toolkit". I mean Gimp Toolkit was nice when it was used just for Gimp, but now it's used for just more than the Gimp.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I thought that was the Illuminati?
if it made sense it wouldn't be a rant, now would it? sheesh.
No I think rants can make sense, just like a screaming toddler can make sense- not very much sense- but sense nonetheless.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Damnit I could have sworn I responded to this...must have hit preview and forgot to hit submit.
;-)
Anyways, here's the short version:
I didn't mean to be aggressive towards you, I was merely pointing out that both GNOME and E are in development and it's not fair to complain about bugs/lack of functionality in development code. If you don't want to help the testing of these projects, then I hold nothing against you; but don't complain about how bad they are until they are released and can prove it for themselves
As for "lurker", I don't remember calling you that (I wouldn't know anyways if you don't post alot). Hey I like to lurk around things too. Get comfortable here, and don't take anything seriously, we're all just a bunch of folks with nothing better to do on the weekend but flame each other.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
You are AC....the other poster was AC....
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
RedHat, for one. They have already announced that they will be using 2.2 for RedHat 6.0. That's all they announced for GNOME. They gave their rationale for not using KDE. Some of that was misquoted, some of it may just be wrong on RedHat's side, but they were giving their point of view. Debian has done the same thing WRT the licensing conflicts (which will still exist even when the QPL actually does apply to KDE).
Also, last time I looked RedHat was not lying about Linux competitors like it lies about Gnome competitors, although I may be wrong about that.
What lies do they say, keeping in mind that Infoworld misquoted them in the article. There is a license conflict between the old QT license (which, BTW, I believe still applies until KDE uses QT 2.0, but I certainly may be wrong about that), there will still be a conflict between the GPL license and the new QPL license.
Really I haven't seen alot of articles about RedHat and GNOME. I've seen articles about GNOME itself. Usually these are very vague, and don't even really talk about what it is. Often, uninformed journalists think it is a replacement for X or a window manager (just like what happened to E in the last article about Rasterman). Most often, it's just mentioned as an aside, as a project seeking to increase usability on Linux. If those journalists missed KDE in their research, then take it up with them. If you think that RedHat has control of the media then you are vastly overstating their position.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
My point was that there's no way for me to tell the difference between the two ACs. I think this is the most irritating side-effect of ACs on /.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Window managers are probably never going to be "comparable to the MacOS user interface", as they provide only one part of the GUI.
A more interesting question is how far desktop environments such as KDE and GNOME have to go before being comparable to the MacOS user interface, as they are intended to provide a lot more of the GUI.
seems to me window managers for any unices have a long way to go before being comparable to the macos user interface. nyself, i use e.14 on a tinkpad133 w/32 ram, and am quite content with it's performance. i also use(on a variety of machines at work)afterstep, fvwm, WM, openwin, motif, and 4dwm. IMHO the bottomline is not which is better or worse, but which functions best for the 98th percentile, and currently none of the unix window managers address this ease of use and intuitive nature.
for those of us designing, modifying, or configuring window managers, it may behoove us to study "macintosh human interface guidlines" by apple. design of an excellent gui is not only look, but feel. intuitiveness and understanding of an object(physical or visual) without instruction or reading explanations is an extremely difficult thing to do. manufacturing firms spend millions of dollars and man hours studying this elusive topic.
time will tell which of the gui's for linux will win the acceptance of the general populace, in the meantime, we should root for our own favorite underdog window managers quitely, but collectively work together to make them all user friendlier and more intuitive.
three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
Don't bother to reply if you can't put your name behind it.
I think this is a very bad attitude. Arguments are either good or bad no matter if they are stated anonymously.
There are good reason to remain as anonymous as possible on the net, especially in times where 'total surveillance' is nearer to reality than ever (remember the European ECHOLON and ENFOPOL cases).
When I lowered the threshhold, I found that some AC response to you (not really offensive) had been rated down. I don't know if you are a moderator yourself, but in any case it is inappropriate to generally "ban" AC responses to comments of a specific person...
Now back to the topic:
1. Qt 2.0 isn't out yet.
So what?
2. QPL compatible with GPL?
Maybe yes. The QPL isn't finished yet, and people are trying to come close to GPL compatibility (although this is literally impossible; apparently even linking GPL to X is illegal -at least under German law). Help them if you want it to succeed.
Besides that, neither Open Source nor free software implies the GPL; it is just *one* option.
It's the GPL's fault that it isn't compatible with other licenses (and this is intentional).
Miguel is implementing that object model if anyone has any real objections to how it is done I suggest they show us all how it should be done.
Why not try and work with KDE on KOM/OpenParts to improve/adapt it, or at least try to be compatible?
There is still time to find a common ground, as Baboon is not finished yet. KOM/OP works well in KOffice, so it could work well in Gnome, too.
Gtk and QT have agreed on a common DnD protocol, why shouldn't KDE and Gnome be able to agree on a common object model?
BUT I still have no respect for those who can't stand up for their opinions. They are cowards and /., you have accept anonymous posts. If you don't like them, go to another site. (Note: I'm also annoyed sometimes, but there are also very useful anonymous posts.
/. as well? Great! /. postings :-} /. is a *very* intolerant place, and people with deviating views -even justified ones- are usually spammed and flamed to death. So AC posts are sometimes used -e.g. by Windows developers- to bring up new, unconventional arguments.
I rather not have them respond to me.
It's not about opinions, it's about arguments. If you don't like couterarguments, or critical replies, you are the coward. If you post on
What would have happen if the likes of Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, or Gandhi didn't stand up for their beliefs?
They posted on
But seriously, people may prefer not to be shot or imprisoned for their
In fact,
If they are offensive or useless, moderators will rate them down and they won't bother you anymore.
Thus, your anti-AC attitude is unnecessary...
Back to the topic:
Miguel said this (among other things): "I talked to Torben at the Kongress about this
and he did not seem very interested in redoing OpenParts/KOM with something different, as it is part of his master's thesis."
The Linux Kongress was long ago, and Baboon wasn't started until much later.
So I guess decided, again, that he was better off doing it a way he though was better, just like GNOME was started.
Yes, you could say another NIH, but this time without the justification of an inacceptible license. Even if Thorben didn't want to change all the things himself (which is understandable within a thesis), nobody prevented Miguel to do it himself, or at least in a compatible way.
According to Thorben, his thesis is about to be finished, so he'll surely be willing to talk about extending KOM/OP.
Actually there wasn't much discussion among the other Gnome developers about Baboon (AFAIK), so maybe some of them favour a compatible object model over the one chosen by Miguel.
Look, if you reinvent the wheel, it doesn't hurt as long as it is only for you. But when others are affected, you should try to do something sensible.
If you build another railway track, you *don't* use a different rail distance than the aready existing tracks! People don't want to change trains at the end of your track, even if you track is superior.
You know that OLE2 is more mature thatn KOM/OP, so why didn't KDE make KOM/OP OLE2-compatible? Because they didn't want to, and that's their right.
OLE on Corba doesn't exist, so there is nothing to be compatible to. A newly coded OLE on Corba wouldn't be more mature than KOM/OP.
Besides, Baboon doesn't use the OLE2 API, it's something special just like KOM/OP.
Believe me, there is really little reason not to work together on that subject (Miguel stated some things he misses in OpenParts like caching, but it's not vital and it should be possible to add it relatively easily).
Let's stop the KDE/GNOME flame wars and let both groups continue development, and let users vote by using one or the other (or a hodgepodge of both),
I can't hear these senseless statements anymore!
This IS development. It's vitally important to have a compatible object model, because the "hodgepodge" is the future. There is no point in having a lot of applications, but still being unable to make them work together. The general interoperability via COM is *the* most obvious advantage of Windows as desktop platform. If Linux/Unix splits up on that point, it's really a pity. I don't want to wait until somebody dublicates Gnome efforts under KDE and vice versa, I want to be able to use Gnumeric embedded into KWord and KIllustrator within GWP, without further hassle. This is absolutely inevitable if we want am up-to-date desktop system.
I do agree with the above reader that splitting would have been an option (after all, the argument with the thesis is an understandable one).
Different architectures shouldn't be the problem, as the CORBA object model is intended to make different architectures work together. So saying "it can't be done because of the differences" is pointless, as this technology is exactly meant or this case.
Baboon is still not finished, so it would be possible to evaluate if KOM/OP can be adapted to Gnomes nees relatively quickly.
And even if Baboon will be used as currently proposed, we should consider ways to make it work with KOM/OP right from the start.
Embedding Gnome apps into KDE and vice versa would be really cool!
(And please, don't be so quick to call people morons.)
If NIH brings competition on the application level, it's good
If it is on the protocol/standard level and prevents necessary cooperation, it's bad.
NIH comes from the Motif/OpenLook wars, which cost Unix the desktop.
In the current situation, I'd say it's good to have competing toolkits, but they need to cooperate on the standards level, and they did (XDnD protocol).
It's nice to have two desktops, one more for fancy looks, one more for a consistent interface, but apps should be interoperable, down to the level of embedding app objects from one desktop into another.
If someone is risking to be shot or or imprisoned for what they say here they either live in a society they should work to turn around (not wasting time here) or they shouldn't say it.
I have never even gotten an e-mail due to my postings here.
Somebody complained he got several threats of murder after a posting (to a political topic).
I am fiercely against discrimination people (here: their opinion) because of their origin, profession or preference (e.g. Windows background etc.). Works should be judged by the results, statements by the quality of the arguments. Judging people by the name (or their willingness to make them public) in unacceptable to me. If somebody gives his name, I tend to trust the facts more, but whenever an argument is based on logic and reason, the name is entirely irrelevant. Linking this to a name seems to me a sign of intolerance and prejudices. The internet offers freedom of speech even to those who would otherwise do not dare use it. Anonymity is a privilige, not a stigma.
This is of course my personal opinion. Others, who value personal integrity (which you would assume under a name) more than logic and reason, may have a different one.
So we might prefer to 'agree to disagree' on that matter.
My 'attitude' isn't anymore unnecessary than anything you want to raise your voice against. Such as your questioning about why GNOME isn't using KOM/OpenParts - the users and the developers will choose what they prefer, so your attitude is unnecessary. Voila.
This is a bad comparison: It is absolutely necessary to discuss which object model Gnome will be using, as (potentially) millions of users will be affected.
If Gnome's object model is compatible to KDE's, we will have overcome the borders of the desktops nearly immediately, resulting in a highly competitive environment with many choices (choice meaning not just running parallel, but embedded within each other).
If the object models remain incompatible, we've lost the last chance of 'reuniting' the project on a high level, while remaining the individual character of each. Much time would go into reimplementing apps for the other project, and commercial software vendors would have to choose one (or they'll simply not implement any distributed object technology at all). The best we could posibly get are memory-consuming wrappers to make the two models speak to each other.
To sum it up, the comfort of many users, and perhaps the future of the free Unix desktop is at stake, so I'd hardly call this discussion unnecessary. Once the decision is made, the *users* can't make a decision anymore. They have to accept the fact that they can't use KFormula within Gnumeric.
And, believe me, users would always choose the compatible solution!
Gee what a nice objective article, that managed to state nothing without implying something negative about the "other" project.
What a crock.
The revolution will be mocked
I can't say this single thing means that Redhat wants to take over GNOME or Linux or anything else, but it sure has made me on my guard. Have you read the new GNOME documentation, for beginners and stuff... it was made by a guy at RHAD and it totally denies the existance of any linux dist other than Redhat. Sure, i don't mind that they only give install instructions for Red Hat if they don't have the time for other dists, but how well the fact that other dists exist is left out of the docs really makes me think...
A quick note to all those Red Hat nay-sayers. I really like and admire Red Hat.
They really do seem to understand about enlightened
self interest. There are lots of examples of this
you guys know them already. I'll just mention one
more for non Australians.
Australian Personal Computer has just published
"The Linux Pocketbook". It costs AUD 14.95 and
includes the full Red Hat 5.2 distribution plus a
few more goodies. The Pocketbook is REALLY good. I even
felt comfortable about trying FIPS with its help. Anyway the authors credit Red Hat with help in obtaining a distribution even though Red Hat 5.2 costs AUD 79.00 in retail outlets here. The pocketbook is really all you need even as a novice to get up and running. Red Hat undercut their own distrubtion channels in helping APC out because they know that this way they can reach a new bunch of users. Every piece of software Red Hat has written has been licensed either GPL or LGPL. I think they're totally cool, just what the leading Linux Company should be.
RedHat isn't forcing you to use Gnome. You can choose not to install it. You can download KDE if you prefer KDE.
RedHat made a choice for their distribution, but they don't have a monopoly. If you don't like their choice, fine, but don't whine about it. RedHat is even allowing people to take their entire distribution, remove Gnome and slap KDE on it, and redistribute it and SELL it, without paying RedHat for it.
How's that for open and fair?
Oh, and RedHat gave a decent reason for not including KDE - the non-free QT license. I'd rather run a distribution from someone that care about the license issues, like RedHat and Debian, than someone who's ignored it.
Not... They're not forcing you to buy their distribution if you think it's so horrible to download packages they don't ship on the CD. Guess what? No matter what distribution you choose, you'll probably have to download an application they don't ship sooner or later, so what's you problem?
You can even buy RedHat based distributions like Mandrake that does include KDE. And RedHat allow anyone to take their entire distribution like that, and modify it.
So how are they not giving you a choice? Without RedHat, distributions like Mandrake and several other wouldn't be out there.
And without RedHats funding, Gnome wouldn't be nearly as mature, and we wouln't have a real choice of desktop suites yet - we'd be stuck with KDE.
It's time you realize that the world doesn't revolve around you. RedHat has a commitment to their users. If they believe their users are best served by not shipping KDE, because of the license issues, that is their right. And you have no reason to bitch about it - you have more than enough choices in other distributions, including RedHat based distributions that include KDE.
I for one is a RedHat user that believe RedHat did something good by putting a focus on the nasty license issues the old QT license caused with KDE.
And the Microsoft vs. Netscape thing is a result of Microsoft being an extremely dominant player. RedHat isn't forcing it's distribution onto anyone. They even allow people to copy it, and make money of it and modify it without paying them any licenses, including full source. If Microsoft had done that with their core products, I wouldn't have had anything against them anymore either.