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Harmony project Dead?
Jaws writes "According to this letter found on Linux Daily, the Harmony project is officially dead, based on the fact the last source check-in occured last November."
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Good and bad.
Well, mostly bad.
But only bad because the only possible outcome of this is that the KDE-bashers will all crawl out from under their rocks and start blabbering their big mouths again.
Having multi-thread support in Qt (Harmony) would have really convinced me to take another look at Qt coding. Right now GTK+ still has better multi-thread support. One has to wonder though, if we should not redesign GTK+ from the ground up for threading. The current solution (gdk_threads_enter()/leave encapsulation) is really just a stop gap solution. But then again, there is no threaded X11 server that I know of...
Adnans
..So I guess this doesn't affect me.
Now that QT has gone open source, nobody needs Harmony anyway. And please, shut up if all you have to say is "uhh QT sucks". That applieas especially to those gtk zealots. I have nothing against GTK. I am just glad that QT is now open source. Nevertheless the stupid "holy war" continues...
Don't like it - don't use it. But don't bash it!
It does affect you. KDE is here to stay. And so is GNOME.. They'll just have to communicate with each other. WindowMaker + KDE 1.1 = killer combo!
Can somebody tell me what was the Harmony Project?
it seems as many ppl doesnt understand that kde is not window menager, ppl running kde only are actually running kwm with kde on top of it, i use gnome+afterstep, works great, i have even qt libs installed....
Trool Tech really fooled us.
First there was the Free QT foundation, which was NEVER signed into existance (and would have ment nothing as QT hired one of the voting KDE members).
When people began to moan about that they pull the QPL.
Even if you aggreed with the QPL's terms.. NO VERSION OF QT HAS EVER BEEN DISTRIBUTED UNDER IT. Think about it, if TT was playing level here, why didn't they just rerelase the current version under the new licence?
The reason they didn't is because the QPL will never be appiled to QT.
QT is propritary, thus KDE is propritary. Which isn't so bad.. Except they fell they have to lie to us. This is sickening.
QT IS NOT OPEN SOURCE!
THE QPL DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY EXISTING VERSION OF QT.
Just like the Free QT foundation (which never existed), the QPL is just a ploy to allow KDE to build a market share position where we have no choice to accept it.
This is bad, very bad.
Another nail in an open KDE's coffin...
There, I said it.
In fact the term ``multi-threaded'' is usually misused. Because ``multi-threaded'' implies reentrantcy, it is entirely possible to have ``multi-threaded'' software on Unix without even having ``threads''. The Unix process model is able to support multi-threaded software designs, and portions of Unix have always been multi-threaded (i.e. reentrant). For example, most Unix file system code can be considered multi-threaded.
Who cares about KDE, only Windows people use it anyway. Let it rot alone in the corner with the rest of the crap like EMACS.
It seems that once again, the rabid Stallmaninstas managed to write a check with their mouths that their code couldn't cash. If it was really important to the really important people, it would get done.
aint that the point? to give migrating windows users a familiar interface to work in as they begin to learn linux?
#!/bin/sh .xinitrc
:)
# WindowMaker Default
kcontrol -init &
krootwm &
kpanel &
kfm &
/usr/local/bin/wmaker -nodock -noclip -nocpp
Window Maker was configured with --enable-kde
Good luck!
Adnans
PS. I'm sorry to say, but this combination kicks GNOME's butt right now
What do you gain by using WindowMaker over KWM?
I telephoned TT 4(5?) months ago and was told that it wasn't signed yet.
Harmony was just glitter.. The licencing matters to no one. That's why gnome died too.. Gnome never really cared about the licencing.. Just look, they included a propritary Redhat lib in gnome (libart).
But now harmony is offically dead.. I suppose the gnome announcement will come soon.. The only reason gnome lasted as long as it did was because of RH labs, cause high quality software can't be produced without commercial backing. But RH has cut off the labs because they couldn't produce. Gnome's design was too antiquated (MS OLE2 HAHA) and the programming languages they used were too antuiquated and unstable.
Since the QPL went into effect most Gnome deveopers moved over to KDE, since the change in licence removed their one fantasy reason to stay..
This is a perfect example of the software indrustry. Good software beats out the week.
Hey, don't be dissin' emacs.
You say: "Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true."
Well, IIRC, that's exactly what they did. I am not sure what parts it were. Isn't Mico GPLed? If it were, they are breaching the license of Mico in offering a derived work to be linked with Qt.
All of this bitching about KDE and GNOME is flatout stupid. If you're ideologically opposed to KDE stuff because of the libs, don't use it. There is always GNOME.
If you want GNOME to be successful, write fscking apps for it. Right now KDE is very usable and stable, an awful lot of people have put a lot of work into it. Don't bitch them out for their hard work.
KDE has opened Linux to a lot users who wouldn't be using Linux in the first place. These people make our platform more attractive and give Linux a better chance at penetrating all aspects of business. I don't know about you, but I hate leaving Linux for anything, even for office productivity stuff and games. We need KDE and GNOME to bring Linux onto the desktop, and KDE has opened up this possibility for some people.
In the future, carefully consider that when you bash KDE, you are bashing the work of people who are very (I daresay justifibly) proud of their work. They've put in a lot of time and have not been paid for their efforts.
They've earned the right to some respect. Please give them this respect whether choose to use the software or not.
... your project is crash happy, ugly, and
apparently develops slower than mollasses.
KDE will be 1.1 and improving while Gnome is
still debugging their crashy ORB and using a
pathetically un-utilitarian giant Panel. What
are those icons like 100x100? Oh wait, you
have a wide variety of RAD fantasy backgrounds
to choose from and cool GUI half of which
don't work right and have serious flicker
problems.
You are all doomed to insignificance as your
main programmers don't care to and aren't pushed
to develop simple easy to use software.
Meanwhile open source QT 2.0 will rule as a
trusted and proven TT knows how to make a
GUI toolkit right.
The only harmony Harmony brought was the death knell of GNOME. How sad. I wonder how Red Hat will get their $$ back.
KDE is HERE. NOW. AND WORKS!!!
KDE, the real alternative.
In that respect the Window API kicks our butt...
NOT!!!!
I've done much threaded programming on Windows NT(Win32), OS/2, HP-UX, and Linux. And personal experience is that Windows definitely does not kick anyone's butt. Personally, I feel it was done best (of those mentioned above) in OS/2, followed by Linux. I've found useful both user threads (missing from Windows) and kernel threads. With kernel threads on Win32 you've got to be very careful about making graphical (e.g. GDI) calls or you end up with Z order problems, lost focus, etc.
This just _has_ to be trolling. Everything you say is complete bullshit: laughable bullshit. Lemme guess :
- You're under 16 years old
- You have no brain, or clues
- You run Windows
Cheers
AndyM
"That's why Gnome died too..."
Anybody noticed that all the flames here are started by anonymous cowards? Not that I want slashdot not to allow anonymous cowards anymore, but when reading the replies, you should at least think about it. If somebody doesn't want his name printed here and he's flaming others, let him alone! It's not worth all that trouble!
Michael (cb13104@oehlux.uibk.ac.at)
I think the "Troll" in Troll tech applies to people like you. I don't believe you are a KDE developer, because you need to be at least a little intelligent to write code.
Intelligent ppl don't post flame bait like yours.
AndyM
These posters use AC (like a lot of good users) because it's more conviente that way. (and there is no chance of some little slip coming back to haunt you, now that job interviewers do 'net searches).
If you ban AC then people will go make bogus accounts (using hotmail and the like) and then you wont be able to get an idea of post content by looking at the name at all.
Look at Meept, slashdot's biggest reoccuring troll.. He's named, but still anonymous.
If AC's are banned I'm afraid /. will get BORING real fast
That's -more- than 50% (34 would be 50%, for those that can't divide). You seriously want to -ban- 62% (roughly) of the discussions on here? Bah. Whoever said that Trolls are only started by AC's have just been proved wrong by your post.
--Rob
I'm sorry to hear that... Don't the crashes bother you? Have you tried KDE? No.. Try it, you wont regret it!
Usenet Usenet Rah rah rah. Usenet Usenet sis boom *bahhh*.
Yup. Accidents do happen... this is free software so grab it and and change it if you wanna.
Old Source never dies, but sometimes the oxide does flake off of the backup tapes....
I don't like KDE's license, and I don't think
GNOME is quite what I want. So, I'm supporting
the GNUstep project.
That's an alternative, one that's WAY behind both KDE and GNOME, but has the potential to be the greatest. If only it finds support.
Pedro Ivo Tavares
Not logged on by choice.
No, it is not.. We don't need them, they will make
Linux lame as windows are..
You can improve it easily.....
jusy run imlib_config
tweak it and you can see perfomance improve.
People always complaint thing slow in enlightenment or in gtk pixmaps themes, but if you config the imlib cache to be bigger if you have extra memory, thing can be speed up easily. Try it, IT DOES IMPROVE !!!
~~enLITEment~~
You can improve it easily.....
jusy run imlib_config
tweak it and you can see perfomance improve.
People always complaint thing slow in enlightenment or in gtk pixmaps themes, but if you config the imlib cache to be biggery, thing can be speed up easily. Try it, IT DOES IMPROVE !!!
~~enLITEment~~
A program that out-of-the-box maps the backspace key to help is clearly superior to anything coming out of Redmond! But wait, you say, you can remap help to another keystroke, like META-SHIFT-CTRL-], for example... all it takes is a handly Lisp s-expression...
Emacs is 70s technology. I use it all day every day, and I'm keenly aware that there has to be a better way.
The damn GPL forbids just about everything.
You misspelled BeOS. Hope this helps.
...do the KDE people proclaim GNOME to be dead when new versions are being released on what seems like a weekly basis.
/HAS/ to be only /ONE/ way?
...do some people seem to think that there
I tire of the "who cares about KDE" attitude.
KDE has done more for promoting the use of Linux by emulating what is in Windows a good interface let down by a poor underlying system than you will ever do with you "CLI forever" attitude.
If you would rather live in the stone age, using CLI until you die, that's your choice. Personally, I choose to evolve and stay current with what is going on - KDE is useful, comes with a good set of tools for beginners (or they are easily available) and provides an entry point for Windows-users into the stable but somewhat alien underlying systems that make up Linux.
Grow up!
IMHO, it seems as though people seem to co-mingle two very distinct aspects of this whole discussion. There is 1) the technical merits of these two projects, and 2) the free-software aspects of these two projects. As for the first, the debate could go on forever I assume. Though for the second, it is rather cut and dry. KDE plus QT is not free software. There seem to be a lot of KDE fans out there who don't think that this is such a big deal. And these are probably the same folks who wanna see all those proprietary games ported to GNU/Linux too. What a shame.
I really like Troll Tech's president's threat of a lawsuit against Harmony developers in the Harmony newsgroup a month or two ago.
Nice touch, Trolls.
Many of these developers are the very same people that graced you with KDE and popularized your toolkit in the first place.
Congratulations.
If your claim was true you could easily come up with an author of some of this "plenty code" who explicitely states that he did not gave permission and that he want he code to be removed from KDE. If not it's just plain FUD, as usual.
The GPL does not forbid linking against Qt, that's just nonsense. It never did and it never will. Neither does the GPL forbid to port applications to Qt. The GPL is a free software license, a Copyleft. It was meant to support the creation of free software. So why should it hinder people from writing more free software? Some people may argue that the distribution of binaries linked against non-GPLed libraries might be a problem. But even this point becomes pointless if the library is freely redistributable or even part of the system distribution.
Your claim that people commit to KDE just to hinder distributors to ship KDE is just ridiculous.
Its good to see this flamewar being brought back to life. For awhile I thought it was dead. You can always rely on Slashdot for bringing back the best flamewars.
Oh, yeah.. ban them damn anonymous cowards.. while you're at it kill all jewish bastards too. Black people? Who needs em! White people? Bah, we don't need them. All we need is Linux and all but everyone will be happy.
Ctrl-Fx switches to desktop x under KWM...
Can anyone not connected to Troll Tech and/or the KDE project independently verify the legitimacy (or lack there of) of the legal documents signed by Troll Tech and the KDE people? Maybe post it here? Please?
On another note, perjury has only occurred when a false statement is knowingly made about a matter that is germaine to the investigation or case at hand. Starr was investigating Whitewater, and screwing your interns has absolutely no connection to the White Water matter; thus misrepresenting the truth of the intern relationship during the Whitewater investigation was not, and will never be, perjury.
one word win16mutex! well actually 2 words and a number try doing some low level vxd style stuff on 95 and then while some app has the mutex juz try to display anything besides a blue screen. someone needs to thump microsoft for thunking as well.
Another problem with the Qt license is that it means that Windows versions of software (even free software, as far as I can tell) require expenditure of money.
It's a shame to see a lot of the KDE effort have gone to waste, but without Harmony, KDE is essentially dead for us.
Fortunately, Gnome seems to be coming along nicely, and the fact that Gnome is plain-C and CORBA based probably makes it technically a nicer choice anyway.
For example, GTK already has a usable, free implementation that people can use to distribute free software for Windows. That's very important to the acceptance of free software in the Windows world, IMO. Qt strikes out on that.
Also, the Qt license terms make it unusable for internal corporate development efforts. We can't predict which of our projects are going to be open source themselves in the end or what license we are going to choose for them. With Qt, that's a constant worry. With Gnome, it's not an issue.
I've recently installed Gnome and use it with AfterStep, a nice WM. The Enlightenment I installed looks crude, well, maybe more configuration is needed.
Gnome originally used Mico. I visited their site and it seems to be a fine project. Why has it been replaced by ORBit? I intend to learn CORBA programming, any recommendation?
I also admire KOffice's effort, esp. KWord and KPresenter which seem to be well ahead of Gnome's.
i don't want to read anything more about people hating kde for any reason. i read an interview from a kde developer some time ago about the qpl and he said: "people will always find anything why they don't like kde". and that's true. oh yeah, gnome is that much better. yeah, i like gnome, i'm using lot's of gtk-software, but i'm still also kde-user... you can program oss-software for kde, can't you? and don't tell me, you can't. so what's the problem? you can code oss-software, nobody will steal it from you and sell it or use it, cause you can distribute your kde-software under the gpl! kde is free and will always be free... so, what the hell is your problem??? too, bad that the harmony project died. but perhaps the developers of harmony are happy, too. cause they can work now on other, more important things. maybe a commercial gtk ;-)
Have you seen GMC lately? The most useless part of GNOME I think (no offense Miguel). It crashes like nothing else I've seen on Linux (version 4.5.9 I think). Also the icons are butt ugly and it has a general unpolished feeling to it.
KFM on the other (the one in KDE 1.1) is very usable, polished and doesnt crash as often as GMC does (but it does crash sometimes when manipulating desktop icons).
Your turn!
It's not the few thousand dollars that we might have to pay for Qt if we used it in a commercial application that bother me (peanuts compared to rolling out a product), it's the fact that Qt doesn't take advantage of the community model of software development and that Qt can't be ported by third parties to new platforms at all.
The Qt license doesn't seem all that different from the MFC license: we get the sources, we may not have to pay for deployment, but some company still controls the platforms where that software can get deployed.
Read the reply above.
The problem is probably the X server --
a good X server will perform about OK, anything
less is a major bottleneck.
(p.s. I run GNOME on a (Original) Millenium
with 4Mb, on a P100 -- and things run fine
-- but then the Matrox Xfree servers are the
best of the bunch.
If it did, then X would truly suck. But then
since it does truly suck, this wouldn't surprise
me.
Multiple threads for a single window (i.e.
thread per region) is going to be heavy on
bandwidth.
then only the people that get there first will be able to flame... through human nature and our greedy ways, people would just swipe up those oppurtunities without thinking leaving people with worthwhile comments in the dust...
I used to go to a site that became a login-only (was free) and it was a huge message board site... well they used all logins and now its so slow and boring it isn't funny...
BTW - i have an account I'm just not sure I remember the password... (yes I'm mainly a Windows user - hence the format-to-losing-stuff problem)
Course... I had the same problems with linux, I'd f**k it up and couldn't fix it (cause noone would ever answer my questions in #linux efnet) and I'd have to format and lose stuff... it just isn't ready for everyone - and i'm just one of those people that can't put up with the fact that to use linux successfully, you need to know everything and think of everything... too bad there isn't a linux idiot site that would explain things SIMPLY and SHORTLY... BTW, what the hell is harmony?
8Complex
Qt's Library License (that is required to compile ANYTHING KDE related) forces the coder to make the program free and freely distributable. If you don't pay for a QT/KDE library license BEFORE you start coding, you can't sell it for $ or restrict who can use it (or even buy a license to sell it later). Companies can't start to develop anything that they may want to sell or keep internally unless they first purchase a multi-thousaned dollar license from Troll Tech - making it bad for in-house use. Harmony is the only competitor to QT, so with it gone, if the major distributions ship with KDE installed, it will be just like early micro$oft, where to develop anything for sale that works seamlessly with the window system, you hade to pay a company $ first. This can't be good for linux software developing as a whole.
when do those people realize, that we NEED commercial software for linux? oh the good old days, when nobody knew linux. everything was free! i say: what do we want? we want to kick in billys big ass! for that, we need every company, every software, if commercial or not. i use linux now since 5 years and the only thing i can say is: i'm very happy, what's going on at the moment. all these companies porting there software to linux. microsoft at the court telling they've no monopol cause of linux :-)... yeah... this makes me happy. linux really rulez!
Until QT costs nothing to develop commercial applications and QT doesn't allow a company to restrict it's QT-based applications to be for internal company use only, the bickering will go on. Yes, QT is a really great-looking product. It is a shame though to see so much free development effort being put towards promoting a commercial company, as opposed to development on a non-commercial less-restrictive licensed environment like GNOME. Harmony doesn't really have a chance anyway since it doesn't control the development of the commercial libraries.
Mico is a good choice in the beginning, as is has a very good documentation.
Orbit is still immature, it was written mostly because the Gnome guys like C better than C++ (the lang Mico is written in). Also gcc is a pretty bad C++ compiler, which made compiling Mico programs slow, and the result was quite bloated.
With egcs, which is a decent C++ compiler, this is a thing of the past.
There are a couple of other free ORBs, but they should be compatible in principle, so I'd take the one with the best docs.
- More functionality
I beg to disagree. KWM has an awful lot of functionality, which makes WM look pale by comparison.
Just use a recent snap (or KDE 1.1rpe2).
A problem is that many functions are not yet documented.
No, stop bashing both KDE and GNOME. Just emphasize the good in KDE, instead. :)
:)
Really, all this "Z sucks, anyone who uses Z sucks, Z should die" is pointless. The beauty of Linux (or any Unix, KDE is run all over the place) is that we have a choice of what to run, what interface to have, etc.
I like KDE, it suits me well. If GNOME does what you need out of it, great. But let the choices flow.
Can't we all just get along?
For example, GTK already has a usable, free implementation that people can use to distribute free software for Windows. That's very important to the acceptance of free software in the Windows world, IMO. Qt strikes out on that.
GTK's implementation on Win is far from usable for professional purposes. Qt's is extremely professional, is you pay the price.
And then, I haven't found any clause in the QPL that forbids porting Qt to Win yourself.
Another possibility is to write portable apps, and to give it to somebody with a QTpro license to produce the Win version. In the best case, it's just a recompile.
Also, the Qt license terms make it unusable for internal corporate development efforts. We can't predict which of our projects are going to be open source themselves in the end or what license we are going to choose for them.
Untrue. If you write in-house apps, you can easily take e.g. the GPL and just don't distribute it outside the company. As the copyright holder you can change the license later if you want to sell your app.
It's only then that you have to buy a QTpro license.
With Qt, that's a constant worry. With Gnome, it's not an issue.
Wrong. Gnome poses a lot of problems as well, if you think of components like Mozilla. This is however an GPL issue and can only be resolved with a new version of the GPL.
"A bird in the hand, is worth three in the bush."
Nice analogy, that would be KDE in your hands, and Gnome deep in the bush.
Or did I misinterpret you?
(BTW, I woulnd be so paranoid. The KDE folks have quite some influence over TrollTech. It would be harmful to KDE if TrollTech changed their mind again, so it will definitely not happen!)
The point for users is developing software without having to pay money - IMHO, free SHOULD mean free of restrictions and free of charge to use for all purposes (including selling products developed with it).
You claim you can develop software with the free library and later buy a QT license if you want to commercially distribute the software. Troll-Tech officially states it violates the license (http://www.troll.no/faq/general.html Q#8). You are wrong, sorry (and sorry to the would be developers of high quality commmercial software).
kLyx was written by Matthias Ettrich, who happens to be the founder of KDE.
More than that, lyx uses a toolkit that is even less free than Qt (old license), and nobody objected.
In fact, very very little of code of KDE is from outside the project, and the respective authors haven't objected (why should they. A KDE port does not take away any freedoms)
As for distributing KDE, afaiik even RMS has said something about 'implicit consent' of the authors if they write for KDE.
So please stop such undifferentiated anti-KDE propaganda, and try to inform yourself before you post.
You could even help if you look for code from non-KDE authors, compile a list, and ask the KDE guys to seek permission from them, if you think this is necessary.
It has been reported that Ms Lewinsky will be questioned about her role in the KDE case.
Indepoendent prosecutor Starr has accused KDE of lack of ideological purity recently, just after he joined the Church of Emacs.
Newspapers have labeled this the Desktopwater case, and it was assumed that it will have an impact on the DOJ vs MS case as well.
(BTW, look at the KDE homepage for scanned copies of the documents.
In defense of KDE people, we're not all "One True Way" types. Frankly, I find just as many GNOME people with the same attitude, "KDE should die, etc" type things. On the other hand, the programmers I've met are usually not so bigotted. Use it if you want, or don't, who cares.
I like KDE, made programs using it, but I don't want it (or GNOME) to be the one and only possible desktop. Leave plenty of choices and everyone will be happy.
But Slashdot has grown over the last year to be a haven for this sort of unproductive bitching. Just about every news post starts off with ACs saying, "Yeah, well I can do that with this other thing!!" or "This doesn't interest me, Slashdot sucks!!" Nonetheless, actions speak louder than words. In the end, the prorgams that are most usable will stick around, and only programmers have a hand in that, not bloody ACs trolling around here, arguing for the sake of arguing.
but we can still not live with the Qt license even for research use.
Why? You can easily produce in-house versions of sw without paying for the pro license.
Another problem with the Qt license is that it means that Windows versions of software (even free software, as far as I can tell) require expenditure of money.
So you say other Win tools (VC++) don't cost money? I think you're a f*cking hypocrite who doesn't want to pay for other peoples work and gives a damn about free sw.
the fact that Gnome is plain-C and CORBA based probably makes it technically a nicer choice anyway.
If you use plain C only, you can't work on serious big projects anyway. C is used for low level stuff and some free sw projects (as coders no nothing else there), but for large projects C++ is the standard, with Java becoming increasingly popular.
I think you just wanted to make some RedHat propaganda (maybe that's the company you're working for)
I'm the Anonymous Coward, have written dozens of posts and you wanna close me out.
You're just envious because of my intellectual superiority (and because I type faster than you)!
AC are free speech, Pez is a witch hunter and fundamentalist
Ban Pez!
They have both threatened to file lawsuits if you break the law.
They must be evil.
Slashdot is becoming more and more of a RedHat propaganda tool against KDE.
/., at least the editors.
Good news about KDE is not posted (or amybe hidden between a zillion quickies), and everything that could bring up people aaginst KDE hits the front page.
All that despite KDE is the most important project for Linux to become a real force on the desktop. Even the toughest Gnome zealots will agree that Gnome is great for geeks, but far from being as mature and useful as KDE.
Please become a bit more fair here on
AC (who remains anonymous to prevent the death threats dissenters receive here from time to time)
Why is the following wrong?
If it's my code, I can GPL whatever source code I want. If I modify other GPLed code, I'm required to GPL the modified versions. I release my source code and the modified source code under the GPL.
Now if the only way for my release to work at the present time is to use another proprietary program (e.g., library), why is that a problem under the GPL? As far as I can tell, the GPL doesn't require my code to actually function as is. I quote:
"This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE."
The GPL does require "an executable work" to include the "complete source code", but this seems circularly defined as "all the source code for all modules it contains". Regarding KDE, why isn't QT simply a separate module, not contained by KDE. Of course, without QT, KDE doesn't function, but again, the GPL doesn't require GPLed source code to correctly function.
In the absence of a clear explanation, it seems to me that the GPL is a little broken.
Maybe the libs are LGPL, but the core apps definitely aren't.
Nowadays, where everything will be a CORBA component soon, everything is a kind of lib, so you will be in trouble with the current GPL anyway.
Think of components like Mozilla, or some BSD stuff, or even a proprietary speech recognition system. All that won't be possible with GPL'd components.
They'd better make everything LGPL, IMHO.
If you seriously think that the KDE people invented the conept of an Object-Desktop any more than the GNOME people did, you need a good history lesson.
I'm hoping for the day when I can use some theme-controlling program to say "change" and all the widget sets switch (say) from Metal to 2-dimensional "classic" Xaw.
From a user's point of view, the ideal solution would be that they could use KDE, GNOME and GNUstep programs all on the same desktop, without having to bother about which was written in what.
Why?
Because of you, lame new (l)users, linux will became just stupid substitute for stupid windows..
50% of what is posted on /. is either completely
inflammatory, or total crap.
99% of that 50% crap is by ACs.
Make everyone log in and the quality of the
dialog will increase twofold. Those who really
have something to say will log in. Those who
want to troll or flame will be much less likely
to do so because now their name is associated.
-Pez
JamesKPolk wrote:
:-).
Now his place in history is secure, following in Andrew Johnson's footsteps.
Yeah, there are lots of parallels. Andrew Johnson was impeached also from a political witchhunt. In Clinton's case, the rules of due process were unconstitutionally suspended in the hopes that something resembling a crime would appear. In Johnson's case, the Democrats passed an unconstitutional law to make Johnson's firing of a cabinet member illegal.
Both impeachment trials were embarrasing farces. In both cases the President's behavior was just as embarassing as the behavior of those trying to "get" the President. However, at least Clinton was sober when he gave his inaugural speach
----
Open mind, insert foot.
A file manager? Here is my filemanager. I say it is not only more powerful but, for me, easier to use than the kfm.
Wed Jan 27, 23:28:13 - 0 mesgs. 022-erich.users-/var/media/mp3
fozzi:169->
KDE has an application launcher panel? I have an application launcher, too. I say it is more powerful than yours, and I feel it is more elegant. It looks something like this:
Wed Jan 27, 23:28:13 - 0 mesgs. 022-erich.users-/var/media/mp3
fozzi:169->
You say KDE has a window manager? I have one too. You can get it here. You say KDE has a crappy web browser? I have one too, it's called ``netscape.'' And it only loads when I tell it to.
I wish someone could explain to me why it is so much better to be able to double click-on-your-mp3-directory-then-double-click-on-y our-catagory-folder-then-double-click-on -your-artist-then-drag-a-box-around-your-titles-th en-double-click-then-wait-for-x11-amp-to -load-and-play-your-mp3 then it is to type amp mp3/Cl<tab>Bee<tab>9th*<enter> I just don't understand. Maybe easier to learn but certainly not easier to use.
So, what you're saying is that KDE is a substitute for learning how to do things better. I can see that. I don't think it's right, but I can see that.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Um, the beauty of all the Unixes is that one can choose any sort of interface they want. If you like something else, great. If some people like KDE, they can use it.
What's with this attitude of, "I don't like it, therefore no one shall use it?" With Windows, you're stuck at one interface, basically. The wide array of choices in Unix environments is what many people like.
And some of KDE's programs are great at simplifying certain configuration. Take kppp. I already have pppd setup and running, but I went ahead and took a look at what all the excitement was with it. I must say, it's a pretty cool tool. I had my net connection up and running in a couple minutes, no headaches. But, many people still don't want things like Linux to spread to new groups of people (who have been coddled to death with Windows), so they hate anything that does this.
Anyway, my point is if you don't like it, don't use it. But why demand it be wiped from existence?
The majority of the posts in this forum make even the zdnet forums look like a place of common sense, intelligence and well-formed opinions.
At first i was agreeing with Katz' latest column about the value of anonymous cowards. Maybe he's right that Anonymous Cowards are neccesary, but no more than shit is neccesary. And i value the posts by these lame morons even less.
Hey, maybe it's just my not ever having used Windows, but I _don't_ think the windows desktop is workable and useful. I detest almost all the decisions made in it. I used a Mac for years, and still use one, and I'm posting from one right now- and I _don't_ want a window manager that acts like a Mac, either. (impossible to get anything even vaguely close as far as consistency etc). ;)
On Linux, I use Window Maker, after also having enjoyed Afterstep. Some of the Window Maker decisions I absolutely love- most of all, I am fond of the clean uncluttered nature of it. If I want lots of additional tiles I'll make many workspaces and keep different apps docked on each one... the idea that I need to be subjected to a taskbar, and a start menu, and a certain way of handling virtual desktops (I'm undecided which is better, Afterstep or WM- Afterstep's mini iconic version is very nice, but WM's 'you put it there, you remember it' is gratifying, and the clip 'switcher' is damned elegant in practice)
My point is that I am really pretty hostile towards KDE, due to its stated objectives and obvious goals. If I wanted the Windows desktop _I_ _WOULD_ _USE_ _IT_. Instead I used (and use) a Mac for years- and don't intend to try and change it into Windows or into WM- and using Linux, I went for Window Maker and don't intend to change it into the Mac, or into Windows.
I'm really sick of the notion that we should make Linux better by making a shell that acts like Windows, only without crashing. Is that the best you can do? Do you have _any_ _idea_ how very specific that approach is? It's not that way by accident. The taskbar is there because people used to launch apps on the Mac and not understand when the app waited for them to select or create something- or switch to another app, hide the first and 'out of sight, out of mind'. The concept of relying on the user's ability to know what the hell they are doing is laughed off by this approach- it's always luser-friendly in Windows land, until you want to scream. I'm sorry, but even if I'm only some Mac weenie with a hacking gene from somewhere, I'm still not going to sit around quietly as people try to pass off the design of Windows as workable and useful.
Build your own, or stay home.
There already _IS!!!_ a Windows. It is obscene to attempt to build another one. Build something original.
*hehe* goody, I can get flamed by KDE people for the rest of my life for _this_ one
If I want One True Way I can tell you right now what I'd be using. MacOS ;) MacOS is seriously consistent, has a massive supply of apps with very long lifespans, and is easily fixed if anything goes wrong with it. Boot off something and shuffle stuff around in the System Folder, bam- 'no huhu'.
I _don't_ _want_ 'One True Way'. I want many different ways. Currently I'm a Window Maker fan on LinuxPPC, but I also liked Afterstep. I never managed to get Enlightenment working, but if I had I'd have played with that too. I played with twm, for God's sake, and enjoyed it! (wow... it's like the void of meditation...)
The KDE people are really beginning to annoy me with this attitude. I know where they got it- Microsoft- and since in their world my years of happy Mac use are a delusional fantasy and mirage, clearly they are sincere in feeling that there has to be just one 'winner' and everything else must die.
Personally, I'd like to see them take that attitude right back to Windows, and LEAVE it there, and not pollute Linux with it. Linux is a 'world' where I can try out and use lots of interesting apps, the authors of which had no _clue_ they'd be having their tools compiled and run on a Powermac. It's a world where I can love the Afterstep animated backgrounds- and I'm not the only one to be impressed by, say, 'Swarm'- and can find that hack works perfectly in Window Maker- that it's more general than I thought!
And it's a world in which I can use kppp to dial out from Window Maker- and struggle for days to figure out what is broken that I can't get wmppp to do the same- and find out that kppp is making _temporary_ changes in important files, so that the configuration data GOES AWAY when you stop using KDE tools!
I find that little bit of 'lock-in' hard to forgive, and I wonder how many people have enough of a hacker gene to work out what's being done and look at files being used, figure out what's happening. It's fine not messing with systems that already work, but KDE has sometimes been the system default- like with the linuxppc I began using- and this is not behavior suited to helping people understand how the system really works, this quiet adding and erasing of entries in config files.
I don't find it unthinkable that someday I'd treat KDE tools and applications like Microsoft code and eradicate it upon discovery- it wouldn't take much to reach that point, after my merry hunt for the pppd gremlins.
The frothing, deadly advocacy of some of the KDE advocates does _not_ help. Maybe some of the less ruthless ones can try to cool off the problem cases and make 'em get with the program? Their 'KDE will march on a road of bones!!!' attitude is absolutely unacceptable.
Sure, Qt is Open Source(tm), but it still is not GPL-compatible, making linking KDE with it still illegal.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true.
There's quite a lot of GPL source from other places in KDE, which is the reason I made my original comment. I'm quite aware that the authors can do whatever they want with their own source, but they can't do whatever they want with the GPL'd source of other people. They do not have the permission of every single code contributor to make an exception to the linking part of the GPL, so therefore linking KDE with Qt remains illegal.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I have no problem with KDE or the KDE developers, and could care less whether it looks like Windows or not. The problem I have is that the GPL is a license agreement, and it needs to be respected. When the GPL says you cannot link GPL'd code with non-Free libraries, it means exactly that. Of course, the KDE team can write an exception for the Qt libraries into the license for their code, but they do not have the right to amend the license of code which is not their own. They take quite a bit of GPL'd code from other people, and the license of that code must be respected, whether it is convenient or not. They can't just decide to ignore the GPL because they feel like it.
It seems to me that KDE wants to be GPL in name, so they can use source from other GPL'd apps, but not in practice, so they can continue linking to non-GPL-compatible libraries. If they want to do so, making KDE LGPL would solve that problem, and would be fine with me. However, they have not done so, so they are violating the GPL, which is illegal. I don't care if their interface is better, more advanced, or the best one possible, but it's still illegal.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Posted by Mephie:
So all the people who wish to be anonymous would just choose an account that many people can use, such as cypherpunks. Then you would demand "BAN CYPHERPUNK!!!" and they would just make another account. It's just way too much trouble.
--Mephie
Posted by timtan:
Well, it's sad whenever something people care for dies. But's that's just natural selection.
Harmony had good intent but it wasn't really going anywhere. Developers really should spend their time writing useful software rather than bicker about license-this;that.
Nobody's going to all of a sudden pull a fast one on the free-software community. The community really ought to know that it's powerful enough to counter anything unethical by Troll folks.
====
...am very sad to see the Harmony project die. I followed the mailing list for a long time. I wish I had the time and the know how to work on the project. Today is a sad day.
Personally, when I have time and bandwidth and the GNOME library situation is straightened out (I understand it's much better now), I plan to get it, play with it, and make whatever constructive criticism/contribution I can -- as I do now with KDE.
Competition and choice are good things. These children are simply confused by their hormones, and would flame over shoe sizes ....
Craig
you'll have to dig a bit, and it's alpha, etc. etc., but someone has of course cooked up a way to use GTK in multithreaded applications.
I have it lying around *somewhere*, unfortunately I'm dorking out with Perl and Java and databases instead of doing any real programming so I can't comment on whether it works well.
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
The only reason it started was to encourage acceptance of KDE. Between Trolls kind-of-open license and GTK+, the project doesn't need to continue.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
TedC
PS. KDE 1.1 looks pretty cool; I like the Mac menubars.
Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true.
The authors released the code which inherently had to link to GPL-incompatible code. That means that KDE is not GPL, no matter how many times anyone calls it GPL--including the authors.
The action of releasing it with that dependency changes the license. This is very basic law; getting it wrong would fail a contract exam in law school or on the bar exam. The law doesn't tolerate absurdity, and holding the authors to violate their own license would be so. Like LyX, KDE is quasi-GPL, not GPL.
But then, it was undisputed for 612 years, 1386-1998, that perjury was not only impeachable, but one of the most serious impeachable offenses, and there's folks that are suddenly claiming it isn't
hawk, esq., who isn't sure why he bothers.
Given that KDE isn't GPL to start with, but quasi-GPL, the patches fall under the same license. To hold that patches come under a different license than the code itself gets back to the legal absurdity problem.
It would take true GPL code from another project, not patches to KDE, to bring up a GPL & linking issue.
Oh, and LyX (and therefore KLyX) aren't GPL, either. Though putatively GPL, they're also quasi-GPL. And at the moment, we're putting together a license clarification (not change) to avoid the KDE-style fiasco.
Bump the level up one. Usually the crap doesn't get a rating. Isn't that why it's there?
Actually, you coudln't be more wrong. Most PC's today have processors which can easily outrun the I/O subsystems to which they are attached. Multithreading allows the CPU to continue to work on other tasks while it waits for the I/O systems to get back to it. Sure, multi-processing does this too, but multi-threading can be the more correct approach in many situations.
Your point about threads vs. multi-threading is quite correct. This is because a Unix process is essentialy a thread with it's own memory address space. As I said before, this can be a great way to get the job done in many situations, but it's not always appropriate.
sigs are a waste of space
Actually, the guys who developed SML/NJ made a multi-threaded version of the language. As I recall, they developed a multi-threaded X/Server as a demonstration app.
;-), Linux threads still have some annoying limitations and aren't 100% posix compliant, XFree86 designs their server to run on a plethora of OS's, some of which I suspect either lack threads or have non-standard thread models.
In general, you have to keep in mind a few things: threads have only become a standard part of Linux since glibc2 was adopted (some say that process is still ongoing
sigs are a waste of space
Huh? I love GTK+, but I was under the impression that it was virtually guaranteed to go up in flames if you used it in a multithreaded way..
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
The day you have a product of any kind, I would
love to see you guarantee you won't sue me.
Guess what? Nobody that has a product ever does that.
The FSF won't guarantee it won't sue me either.
The Kimp was *never* distributed, so it can hardly have been removed from distribution.
Not for me. And I run on a slower system than you: a P133, 64MB RAM. I use Enlightenment, have two panels, and lots of applets. I've run StarOffice and Netscape at the same time as well, and not felt too bad - although I wouldn't recommend playing MP3s at the same time unless you have a Rio. :-)
:-)
Part of it is tuning. I've found that sound support is a CPU hog. But, one click in the control center and that's no longer a problem.
I've also got it on my laptops: a P90, 16MB RAM, and a 486/66, 16MB RAM. You definitely feel the lag, but it's still usable.
(Once, for a demo at a users' group meeting, I had both KDE and GNOME running on separate X sessions on the 486 laptop. If you want to know lag, that's one good way to get real familiar with it.
I fully agree to cease that project.
I just bumped up the threshold to 1, and there were a total of 5 comments. Just one of which was a reply...
Yeah, but the opinions were somewhat more well founded. *Shrug* I don't have anything better to do than read through all the comments though, so...
It's that simple. Reading throgh the posts here
there is nobody saying "Ohh the QPL stinks so I am
going to take up this code and help finish Harmony."
This means that the only valid coments are from
people whoe say Harmony no longer has a purpose.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Just to interject a bit of fact here, libart is definitely not proprietary, nor does it belong in any way to RedHat (though I do realize that the R and H in my name might be confusing :).
In point of fact, I've been in e-mail communication with Roberto Alsina, a KDE developer, about the possbility of using libart to make an antialiased version of Qt's QPaint widget. Since the current libart is entirely LGPL, there are no licensing problems. I personally would love to see this happen. The more wins for libart, the better chance I have making some money licensing libart into the commercial world.
LILO boot: linux init=/usr/bin/emacs
Mozilla is using gtk+ with threading enabled, and have been for a couple months now.
Of course, Mozilla (SeaMonkey, Gecko, ... whatever) isn't a very stable creature at the moment, but I don't think that's the fault of GTK.
> Hey, maybe it's just my not ever having used
> Windows, but I _don't_ think the windows
> desktop is workable and useful.
Using Windows would not change your opinion -
trust me on that. And I'd also add 'aesthetically
pleasing' to the list of attributes the Windows
desktop does not possess.
If you watched the Harmony lists, Harmony was effectively dead in the water the day QT declared the next version would be Open Source. Any one who cared about making an original toolkit was working on GTK or their own. The people working on Harmony wanted an open source version of QT. They have that. Why would they continue?
If you really care about this, the source is listed on the page. Take it and continue.
The KDE project uses a widget library called Qt. It provided stuff like buttons, scrollbars, text
areas, etc. Qt is made by a company named Troll Tech. For a while, Qt wasn't Open Source. This caused a lot of problems in the Linux community because KDE, which was to be the standard desktop, was using a proprietary toolkit. Harmony was started to rewrite Qt as Open Source. Since the, Troll Tech has made a new liscense which most people accept as Open Source. So, you can understand why the Harmony project is dead.
Citizens Against Plate Tectonics
The Harmony Project was a coordinated effort to get all the Linux users in the world to sing a single note on New Year's Eve 1999 at midnight UTC, thus ringing in the year 2000 in "Harmony".
Everyone was also supposed to stand facing Redmond Washington, so the effective resonance of the millions of voices would cause Microsoft's office
windows to shatter.
However, no one in the Linux community could agree on which note to sing, so the project was abandoned.
Wouldn't multithreading force one to violate the X protocol?
Speaking as someone who uses KDE rather than GNOME (for the moment anyway), I'd have to say that you're a bit of a fucking moron, if you'll excuse the language.
Idiots like you should climb back under your bridges and go play with your Windows boxes.
GNOME was fast when it was still using gtk+ 1.0 but now gtk+ 1.1 is ssssoooooooo ssslllloooowwww. It's painful for me to use, I thought kde was slow at first then I tried a .99.x series gnome. AAARRRGGHHH, and enlightenment is slow to, it was nice and usable in the 0.13 days. My machine is not too slow, a Pent 150 with 128MB Ram. But nooooo everyone has to go develop software for these Pentium XXIs running at 87 Kagillion megahertz. Anyway, enough of that. I'll switch to gnome when a) it gets faster or b) I get a new computer.
Andrew
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
-Calvin
There times I just don't understand why these flame exist. I personally tried:
:P
1) fvwm
2) fvwm2
3) fvwm95
4) icewm
5) olvwm
6) twm
7) ctwm
8) wm2
9) amiwm
10) AfterStep
11) Window Maker
12) Enlightenment
13) KDE
14) mlvwm
15) blackbox
16) others cannot remember...
Sorry, never try GNOME.
My conclusion is: Just choose what YOU like!
window managers for Linux (or any other UN*X) are just an "interface" to the OS. If worry something is not free, just switch when they start charging.
b5ghost
ps: Currently been using Window Maker.
According to the estimate, quoted in the KDE 1.1pre2 announcement, about 5-6 million users!
So eat that, Mr Twisted ACer !!
OTOH, it's silly to say that Netscape does something because it's not multithreaded, when it actually IS. Look at the source sometime, there's threads all over the place, though on some architectures they're done in user-space, not using kernel threads (clone, rfork, whatever).
Let's stop the name calling and get realistic. My girlfriend, who used to exclusively use windows, now likes linux better because of the ease of KDE combined with the stability of linux. She would never even considered linux had it not been for KDE's sweet graphical interface. I'm sure there are many like her. As for me, I like KDE and Enlightenment, and what I've seen so far of GNOME, I like that too. Just because you like one doesn't mean you have to hate the other.
This'll probably make the QPL-GPL debate even more rabid. Of course OS never truly dies...
KDE is usefull and good, it could easily be made with GTK
If KDE could use GTK instead of QT "easily", why don't they? Then they wouldn't have to deal with the QT controversies. Somehow I doubt it's that simple.
Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
nothing else to say realy
That's pretty damned funny.
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
"high quality software can't be produced without commercial backing"
This is so stupid it made me laugh!
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
You can do multithreading with both threads accessing the server simultaneously if you code the program correctly. You would need to create the X connection AFTER spawning the threads.
Then you just have to make sure that each thread uses its own X connection. Of course this would be a lot easier if this was handled by a widget library.
libart is not proprietary. You can get its source off the GNOME CVS server. There is an LGPL portion that is included with gnome-libs (for the antialiased canvas) that can be used by anyone, and a GPL'd portion that can be used only by GPL'd programs.
The author (Raph) also licences it commercially for people who don't want the restrictions on the GPL portion (this is how he makes a living -- similar to the ghostscript author). What is wrong with this?
MICO was replaced by ORBit because MICO generated huge stubs. This was alright if you are only having a few objects, but for the panel, where each applet is a separate object, the memory requirements went up through the roof.
ORBit is currently C only, but C++ bindings are in development that would be compatible with just about every other ORB.
For learning uses, first decide what you want to learn, then which language you want to program with (C or C++ are the main ones. There may be some other bindings out there). That will narrow down the choices.
Now, the qt licence would not allow you to licence the complete package under the GPL, and the GPL licence on the original package requires modified versions to be distributed under GPL. Hence the package can't be distributed.
..from KDE developers - I suspect that without it TrollTech would not have felt quite so pressurised to make the Qt License [almost] totally satisfy the demands of the GPL fraternity.
This would probably have resulted in more KDE developers emigrating to GNOME, and this in turn might have killed both KDE and Harmony.
Not that I'm saying that GNOME is bad, just that two competing desktops are better than one!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
So that's why many X apps hang! I've noticed this on Netscape and recently on Filerunner and others. In all cases if the comms takes some time, which it can over a modem link, the whole app will hang. It gives rise to the nasty behaviour that when you switch back from another screen the original app window is blank! Yuk!
Isn't there a clause in the Free QT Foundation agreement that if TT ever gets bought out, the latest version of QT gets released under a BSD-type license? :->
Red Hat should just buy TT
IMHO
Well that sucks. But I guess it will only push for
a better solution to the linux desk top. I set out one day to determine which widget set makes the most sense, so I wrote the same app in gtk and in QT. QT was a breeze to program in and was intuitive and I had no problem completing my task. But gtk was a mess, It feels like a kludge and is very non-intuitive, I never finished the application, and I refuse to touch gtk again.
Overall
gtk is fast, but is a mess to code in.
qt not so fast, easy to program in, but not GNU
But in my search I found the FOX widget set. It Rocks. It is easy to program in and is fast AND it compiles in Windows and linux with out much work. Things just make sense with FOX. It is easier to use the QT it is GNU it is cross platform, is supports MDI, it ROCKS.
http://cyberia.cfdrc.com/FOX/fox.html
flame me if you want.
celer