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C|Net posts Special Report LINUX coverage
CynicalBastard writes wrote in to send us a link to
something interesting that recently appeared on CNet. It's
a special section on Linux
with articles on Alternative OSs, Linux, Linux vs. NT, and
project Heresy.
At least they weren't to hostile about Linux
wow, project heresy is cooler than project hearsay..
How many times is it gonna take before people stop comparing these two OSes? I think it's been well documented that Linux is for people who lack to hack around with the internals of the OS and NT is for people who could care less and just want to get something done. If I had a mission critical server, I guarantee I would not be running Linux... or NT for that matter. FreeBSD is a superior solution, and it rarely is mentioned here.
They compare NT 5, an OS which isn't out yet, to RedHat 5.1, an OS which has been out for nearly a year. And Linux still comes out on top.
My question is, this is obviously a very old review, since the reviewer says "I got the latest Apache - v 1.3.1", so what happened? Did this review get oppressed (that's probably over-dramatic), or forgotten, or what? And now they feel they have to put it out since everyone else is doing Linux sections? Go Linux...
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Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
While still good articles, they do seem to be a bit out of date.
"The Linux kernel is now well into version 2.1, and compatible with an enormous amount of hardware,..."
Seems to me that would be arround mid 2.1 series. Perhaps around 2.1.90s?
Hello! :)
If you look at the date it says: 3/25/98!
I had very strange feeling of Deja-Vu when reading the article, and then checked the date on it. I might even have seen it on slashdot before.
heh
-Jón
It's so cool when NT tries to catch up with my mouse clicks on a Pentium.
Anyway, I am bothered by how FreeBSD is not given more serious attention in the press. BTW, we can do without the putdowns of free OSes by advocates of other free OSes.
anyone noticed that only CNet seems to have articles on their previous articles? My god, its like writing a book on a book that you had already written. Cyclic Redundancy. Someone should tell them to either hire more writers, or make their current writers write more articles. This is just too disgusting. I think i will go take a shower.
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
If they're going to make a section on Linux and it's drive to world domination, the least they could do was use articles and reviews that weren't a year old.
I want to see a FreeBSD section there too. It gets overlooked way too much these days. Both seem to inadvertently feed off one another, and I bet one would be quite different without the other.
He says "I guarantee I would not be running Linux" - BFD! run whatever you want, fool!
But there are a big percentage of ISPs running Linux, and some high load sites like dejanews are Linux based. I am hearing about several businesses that are moving their oracle servers to Linux and off of nt, SCO and the like.
Like it or not, Linux has earned a reputation for reliability and performance. part of it is just from the Unix like internal design, but there is a lot of new, innovative stuff in there as well.
deal with it.
Agreed, it's getting boring. Everyone should know what is NT by now.
> think it's been well documented that Linux is for people who lack to hack around with the internals of the OS
s/lack/like/ I guess, but I don't agree with you. Agreed, Linux is used a lot by hobbyists and students; But that doesn't mean all Linux users are geeks.
For admins, distributions now allow to setup servers in less than one hour, with little to no work. I don't mind looking at documentations and source to make the servers fit more closely our needs or even fix problems, but that's only because it's a possibility (yes, I have some background in software development).
>and NT is for people who could care less and just want to get something done
If you ask me, NT is for people that don't care of anything at all. Dunno what v.5 will be, but v.4 is the hell on earth
>If I had a mission critical server, I guarantee I would not be running Linux... or NT for that matter. FreeBSD is a superior solution, and it rarely is mentioned here.
Can't say anything about something I didn't try, but we use Linux at work, and I sleep good at night...
Why FreeBSD didn't get all the press it should is another story, mostly political I think.
while(1) { printf("Do you want to reboot now ?\n"); }... Not!
I can see the logic in recycling old newspapers. But recycling old web pages? Somebody must have been behind on a deadline.
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The early bird catches the worm. The worm that sleeps late lives to see another day.
Oh mighty 'mission critical' man I bow to your VAST knowledge of WINDOWS. How foolish of me to think otherwise.
Listen pal, I sysadmin at a >300 person company. We HAD NT and Exchange doing email for our company. IT COULDN'T HANDLE IT. Between constant system slowdowns, crashes and supernovas, and having to constantly rebuild the stupid Exchange information store (which kept corrupting itself), with next-to-useless 'help' from Microsoft support, we jettisoned NT and Exchange and replaced it with a Linux server running sendmail.
The result? Our email WORKS. Mission critical? Hell yes. And NT FUCKING FAILED MISERABLY AT IT.
...or almost as old. Jeez I read all that stuff when it came out. Those at /. are a little more up-to-date than JoeSchmoe (or JaneSchmoe) Internet surfer, and all those stories I've read months ago.
Just my 2
The linux /proc filesystem is unique, and quite useful - there are other Unices with "proc" filesystems, but they are only a crude skeleton of what linux has.
The memory/disk cache and swap management code are extremely clever - no other Unix will run on as little RAM (except maybe QNX).
Virtual consoles, loadable kernel modules, pluggable authentication modules, kernel-based automounter and other features may have been mentioned in research papers, and crude implementations of such concepts may have appeared in some OSes, but Linux uses fully functional versions of them.
Most commercial unices don't even have such features, with the exception of Solaris, which is also very cleverly designed and technically current.
just like those silly kids that start hating
/usr/local
a song if it gets made into a video,
i can already see the shift of time....
linux gets a nice comfortable mainstream market share,
and everyone starts going on about how linux (which for some reason should be called red hat, since nothing else apparently exsists anymore if you read this and many other articles) is just as lame as windoze now that it has big companies behind it, etc.
then the chirping starts how yous gots to get bsd if you wanna be a "true" k-rad hack3r d00d.
man i thought i left this crap when i started going to school for compsci and left skateboarding behind.
i don't know how many times baggy pants were "in" and then two days later they were "out" again.
but the fast pace of technology is sometimes no better than junior high. maybe if people could take a mature standpoint on stuff.
i actually thought one of the comments they had was very good.
"while windows isn't the fastest or most stable, it's the most versitile"
...well, minus the versitile part, but substitute it for "well known" and you've got the idea. everyone and their grandma knows about c:\program files, not 2% of them know
personally this article is a bit scary to me for the same reasons i just put down. i can see casey casem heralding the beauty of linux as more and more idiots in yahoo chat start asking how they run fdisk and then complaining how linux sucks.
but if we ever want to accomplish what seems like the primary goal for a lot of people here (including myself); to forward the OS to the point that it becomes a huge alternative out there; we need rpms. we need idiots like cnet and zdnet telling their die-hard windoze "billy is my love muffin" users how they gotta get this, just cause it's "k3wl" and "new" (?) and most of all hot.
and most of all i guess we need to swallow that "i told you so" or "i was here first" feeling that sits around in the pit of a lot of our stomachs.
i would hope open source is still about people and the love of technology and pursuit of knowledge; about giving people affordable alternatives to comercial software: not about how cool anybody is because they know something someone else doesn't.
but try telling that to my compsci prof. heh.
this isn't a flame to the posts above,
but more a buffer of comments i expect to follow; if not now, then in articles to come in the next few years that this is happening.
...and forgive me if this sounded too 'katz-ish'
I find it sad that the reviewer thinks that NT is superior in terms of programming web pages just because some commercial tools and ASP exist. They're all great for doing things with your MS-SQL server, but beyond that, things break down. If anyone else has ever had to use Perl on NT, you know it can do some cool stuff in terms of controlling the system, but you quickly learn how limited NT is when you discover you can't do the things you can do on *nix. Flip through the O'Reilly "Learning Perl on Win32 Systems" sometime and see all the things you _can't_ do....
Once Linux hits mainstream (hacker wannabe's and such) no one will be able to complain about it because they'll be seen as not being totally cool and happening.
They might not LIKE having to learn a new OS. But I think the install routines will help them along on that part.
Remember, we're talking herd mentality here. If the general opinion is that Linux is cool but hard for newbies to run, how many people will want to be thought of as newbies?
Their pride will carry them through the initial learning curve. Then they will be hooked.
Kind of like cigarettes. You don't start because you LIKE gagging and puking.
Okay, so sue me. The analogy sux. But it still works.
It seems to be a staple of these reviews to say something like 'everything comes out for Windows first'. Yeah, everything you buy at Egghead does, but sights like Freshmeat seem to keep pretty busy with new software for Linux. That software is usually pretty portable also.
heehee. i was using the lingo for demonstration purposes only.
Interesting how, over the years and still today, the way to compare MS products to non-MS products is to use the "next" version of the MS product in the comparison (in this case, Windows NT v5/2000). The brass ring of "good software from MS" is perpetually in a state of RSN (Real Soon Now).
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Actually, isnt MS's Drivers API good?
i was told its supposed to be pretty easy to create drivers.. *shrug*
The problem with the BSD group is the fact that everytime one of them has a tiff with another, someone decides they're going to fork the tree. Also, the fact that FreeBSD doesn't support jack nor shit for hardware also has a lot to do with people's decisions.. I know that's what kept the ISP that I worked for from using it, they wanted to buy the machine they wanted and FreeBSD couldn't cut it, while Linux supported a wide variety of the configurations they were looking at.
-Erik-
Hey retard the reason Linux rocks, much more so than FreeBSD is quite simple, it's free, extremely fast, and very configurable. Something else which differentiates Linux from OpenBSD/FreeBSD is Linux runs on practically every architecture there is, or soon will. Bite me BSD lover. Hell, IRIX is even better suited than BSD is in most instances.
As far as the NT v. Linux debate goes, I think the
usage statistics speak for themself.
Grab onto a live wire, get Linux!
Even though Rex Baldazo pretty much gave the nod to Linux as the more customizable and scalable server he complained a little about programability, talking about how IIS has an easy interface for novice admins. I wish someone had given him a heads up about commanche, which if I remember is available in the red hat distribution. Or warpaint for web based administration.
Also, he noted that cold fusion isn't available for linux. Isn't it being ported? Am I dreaming, or is it maybe in beta already?
Positive on the whole, though.
The only point made was that the distributor of FreeBSD is small. No actualy content about the merits of the OS. If size of distributor were the largest factor, then we would all use NT.
Is is just me, or are Slashdot posters becoming more stupid as the days pass?
The section on Linux downloads was totally inconsistant and likely to confuse the newcomer. It looks like someone with very little Linux knowledge put them links together.
e.g. some apps say download for x windows (yes I know X Windows is an incorrect term too) while others just say download implying they can be run from the console rather than just through X.
The section with the window managers is also incorrect and confusing.
If they want to make a useful resource for newcomers they should at least put the effort in and use correct terminology and consistency.
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I really got ticked off at the "Karl Kling" characterization of OS/2 users as bitter Betamax users, railing away at nobody on a street corner about how they're better than VHS.
OS/2 users have been actively working on the OS they love for a long time. They have made serious progress with Win95 emulation, built new GUIs, ported apps and written apps.
Their main problems are twofold:
1. IBM. "They're not going to support OS/2 anymore." Well, when did they ever? They pretend they're going to make the OS into some new buzzword their marketing droids read about, and hold the OS too closely for anyone else to do anything with it. I wish they'd open source, spin off, or sell, just give the OS to someone who cares. It's the Commodore Amiga story all over again...
2. Traditionally, the OS/2 software development effort has been the traditional Windows payware/shareware model done in miniature, which hasn't been very effective. Apps get written, but they can't get market share, because the OS itself is on the fringes. Open source totally side-steps this issue, because development and deployment aren't tied to market share. This seems to be changing, as people look at Linux and do likewise.
As for problem #1, it's more a case of being held back than being terminal. OS/2 is a full-featured, modern, quality OS with apps and everything. It's already got a lot of the UI pieces that are still coming together for Linux.
Being an OS/2 fan is more like knowing someone who isn't applying themselves than sitting at a deathbed. You hope they'll live up to their potential, but you find it hard to keep caring. And, it's more healthy to be around people who are going somewhere.
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Application automation. Being able to completely control applications that have OLE interfaces from languages like perl is a godsend. That's something that even commercial unixes haven't properly touched on yet. Gnome is getting there, but isn't there yet, and it's a copy of Window's version (using COM like interfaces).
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Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Besides, An Exchange server can't really be compared to sendmail imho.. public folders? forms? workflow? shared calenders?.. Sure, there are apps to do it with unix(like) systems.. But exchange neatly bundles it all.
And this is a Good Thing??
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
Although this is mostly GUI automation, it also applies to any console mode application too. For example, there's no way to go _backwards_ in most console mode application automation on Linux, when you're controling through pipes.
I don't know too much about gnome-guile, it's not nearly as good as OLE automation, but I suppose it's a lot earlier on in it's lifetime.
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Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
I agree that Unix tends to be a superior, more efficient and reliable solution over anything provided by NT.
In NT's defense, however, I've really gotta say that with competant, clueful admins, most any Windows machine can be made just as stable as its Unix counterpart.
Most of the problems creep in with unstable drivers or applications or tight memory/system constraints. Most qualified NT admins, though, should be aware of these issues and know how to compensate. If you/your staff is incompetant in this regard, the move to Unix was probably a good thing.
>On the other hand FreeBSD is too obscure,
>too tiny. FreeBSD is a ok for hobbyists
You do realize that's the exact same thing people said about Linux until last year, right?
General Protection fault
Invalid page fault
Geometrically increased-frequency software crashes
System reboots upon installing web browsers
Very very cheap RAM
Very very very cheap cpu's
Very very very very cheap mass storage
A thriving data backup device industry
and of course:
Microsoft Bob.
Amen... "everyone was a newbie once".
A MS Exchange server on a PII 450 with 256mb RAM serving 250 regular email-using employees with no other services running, cannot handle the task as well as a P-90/128mb setup running sendmail on Slackware 3.5. FYI we're employing Apache/PHP in a system that is an exact duplicate of MS Exchange server's calendar and email functions, as well as personal schedulers, contact lists, notes (not the journal though) and even a message board (which exchange doesn't have). We expect to require a 133 and slap in another 64mb DIMM once it gets out of testing. Maybe even jack it up to 256mb RAM just to be sure.
The missing feature? Drag and drop. But with Postgres SQL behind it, that's next on our list.
I'll get back to you when that's done. However, so far, Yahoo and all the other higher-volume servers out there seem to be using Linux and not NT
Didn't you notice that Windows doesn't even use NT servers? (For hotmail) Your own vendor doesn't even use their own product. pheer.
The Linux community has a winner's attitude.
For now. BSD took a dive. Linux is next if we don't stop getting pissy at other people. Eventually this turns in on ourselves (and it has; look how linux users dis newbies).
Gee, that's funny, applixware on Unix has intercommunication among all it's components, e.g. updating a spreadsheet immediately changes the displayed values in a words document containing an embedded or linked spreadsheet - Look ma, no OLE!
As far as your being so impressed by com, all I can say is "phffft". No BFD.
Corba is a superset of com, or "com done right" if you will. gnome and KDE are using Corba, as are an increasing number of middleware suites and network-aware applications.
I've seen people using OS/2 off and on since the 2.1 days, and I've always been fairly impressed with the desktop. The "everything's an object" concept is quite powerful. I always got a kick out of the shredder's sound file too. Now that Big Blue is officially supporting Linux, I'd be interested to see the OS/2 desktop (Workplace Shell, is it?) running on top of Linux and X. Think it'll ever happen? Probably not, given the way IBM seems to feel about anything related to OS/2. It's a damn shame.
Same thing with HPFS. IBM could offer some valuable help and/or code to the HPFS folks. But they probably won't, and likely don't even care.
According to a senior Creative engineer, from linux-kernel:
"NT is mute because it is fundamentally broken, period. That any hardware works on that OS is amazing." That doesn't sound to me like they have a very good driver API.
Didn't OS/2 have this with Rexx? And the Amiga as well, IIRC.
I was one of the first non-Japanese students of Masaaki Hastsumi (Bujinkan Ninpo)a Japanese martial art. After the media "discovered" Ninpo they bastardized the hell out of it and all of us who had been in it for years welcomed the new people but those who cam in a few years after us were pissed off that "their" art was becoming known by everybody.
In the final analysis it's the artist, not the art
and it's the user, not the OS.
Nick
LSG