Slashdot Mirror
1984, today.
Jason told me about
this extraordinary story
of a guy who took 15 years to solve a problem in his free
time, only to find that his employer for 2 years (DSC now part of
Alcatel)
is suing him for the idea. While this story started a long time ago,
it's still plodding on. Although I was sceptical,
Time,
Wired, and others
back his story. What's his idea? A method to convert machine
code back to a high level language. Would it help him to GPL it?
That would make it available to DSC, but would allow him to
come up with the best implementation before they do. Since
the idea would be out of the bag, DSC couldn't do very much
about it, right? Update: 02/11 12:45 by S : Evan pointed out to me that if he
GPL'd the idea, he'd be in contempt of court and stuck in jail.
If you're employeed by a high-tech firm, you just might find that your contract was nonsense in it about them owning basically anything you create. Basically if I write a program at home on my own time, my employeer _thinks_ they own it. Me, I think they can go to H***, especially since in my own time I write for a competing platform.
I know it sounds Orwellian, but if he agreed to the terms of the employment contract, and those terms include ownership of any ideas created while working for that company, he is screwed.
The smart move would have been for him to quit his job, THEN claim he invented the idea. The problem is (the way I read it), he got greedy and decided to double-dip, working for his company while at the same time pursuing the commercial ideas inherent in this opportunity.
I don't feel much sympathy for him at all, I'm afraid.
Nowhere else would a company sue someone for his idea. Related or unrelated your mind is your private domain, you don't se the post office claiming access to the minds of the nuts. What next are they going to start charging you for thinking about other things while at work. America has too many lawyers and too many stupid laws, the one concerning intellectual property wrt employers and educators should go.
Ignoring the fact that he was stupid for telling them, how can he or DSC prove when he worked on this idea if it is just in his mind? How does DSC know he is telling the truth? Probably is though, too bad he should have swindled the greedy b_tches.
How do they plan on removing the idea from his mind, are they going to use torture or truth serum?
Sorry this is too stupid to believe.
Hey what did you do with that story that said Rob and Segan are Ex-Strippers from New Jersey! Why are these stories disappearing!
That's what I would say, faced with similar charges.
He might get fired, but what else could they do to him?
... even with a court order...
Publicity is precisely what DSC does not need. DSC will be publicly humilated, that's my take on it.
I agree. I wish it wasn't this way, but he did sign a contract saying DSC owned his ideas, and probably his soul. It is his fault for not reading the contract throughly enough.
DSC was more then generous by offering him $2 million for his idea, since they have full legal rights to it even without offering him money. He should've taken it.
No, they cannot force his idea from him. But, he can no longer profit from it. Anything he creates, any money he makes from this idea belongs to DSC. Accept it.
Moral of this story? READ THE FINE PRINT BEFORE YOU SIGN!!!!
That's the part that baffles me. Was he trying to extort extra money from DSC? That's what it sounds like to me.
Oh my god they're acutally trying to CONTROL his mind now, read the draft order sent to the court:
.. surely the tech community at large would be happy .. not to mention the ACLU and all those other orgs.
5. Brown shall not be permitted any further discovery in this matter unless and until he has fully complied with the disclosure required in paragraph 2 above, except upon order of the Court.
Whats this?? He can't fucking THINK about his idea now? He's not allowed to improve the idea in his head? What the *FUCK* This shit needs to get smacked down. I honest to god would contribute $10 if even 50% of slashdot readers would match to pay this guys legal fees
You NEVER give up basic rights simply because you put your signature to some crap their lawyers drafted. If the employment contract stated that you had to vote for any political candidate the company endorsed, even if you sign it that doesn't mean you give up your right to vote.
The onus is on the company to prove that he came upon his ideas using in part the company's existing intellectual property or its resources, or as a part of his work duties. Otherwise, the contract is simply unenforceable. Contracts are declared null and void every day.
Indentured servitude went out a long time ago.
I actually wrote a research paper on this for an ethics class about 2 years ago. The situation is very complicated.
As with most engineers, Mr. Brown signed a contract which said that any product or idea conceived while he worked for DSC was the property of DSC. When he finally solved the problem, he informed DSC. They offered him $5 million (I think that's right It was a lot I'm sure) for the rights to his idea even though they had no obligation to under his contract. He refused their offer and quit. They now have an injunction which has been on him for the past two years which states that he cannot devulge his idea to anyone and cannot profit from it
Personally, I think that DSC should leave him alone since he claims that his job at DSC was not related to his invention and that he did not work on it on DSC's time. The question is whether or not a company actually has rights to an employees ideas. If not then the contract is void and he wins.
One note though. He could have just quit his job and waited a year for the contract to expire. He'd be a very rich man now if he had.
It is less moral to comply with an imoral law or agreement then not to.
if the idea is "great" enough, why not say screw these folks and GPL it? sure, you're a guy with a great idea, but you have the ("legal") focus on _you_. Post the idea, or general concepts of the idea, publicly. let others implement it for you. of course there is a matter of trust, but surely, if this guy has been "conceiving" this idea for 20 years, he has to have people he trusts.
the more i think about it, i'm inspired to say "who gives a damn." let them sue this guy, let them torture his brain... 2 million dollars is a lot of money for something that could be organized, designed, and implemented... within a matter of months... for free!
i don't care who agrees or disagrees, but information was born to be free. let others argue and expend resources... i think we know what has to be done...
mtk
A point everyone keeps missing. A contract is a set of terms AGREED upon by between BOTH parties. In that contract there was a stipulation saying that his ideas were owned in whole by the company. When he signed the contract he AGREED to that term. He was not forced to sign. He could've turned down the job. He could've demanded that term be struck from the contract before he signed. But he didn't. Why? I don't know. But he did NOT have it removed, so he did AGREE to it. Thus, he must now hold up his end of the deal. 'nuff said.
READ THE FINE PRINT BEFORE SIGNING!
I read my "Employee Intellectual Property and Patent Agreement" and believed that my "idea" was not covered by the agreement. It's been nearly 2 years and well over $200,000 in legal expenses so far and no trial date in site. DSC thinks they are right in their lawsuit and I believe I'm right. DSC/Alcatel has millions to spend on litigation.
The United States legal system allows anyone to sue anyone else for what ever they claim. Be prepared to spend a lot of money and learn more about the legal system than you ever wanted to know. Your employer probably has a lot more money to litigate than you.
You should also remember that lawyers fight to win and justice is in the eye of the beholder. Think about the Clinton case and who lied when and to whom and what the "legal" system has done.
-- Evan Brown
...but does anyone but me read the articles and follow up links before posting?
He came up with the idea 12 years before working for DSC. DSC can do nothing, but whine that they didn't him earlier. Yes, I agree that the law is written that way, but by the same law he is right.
Either way, I wouldn't sacrifice an idea I came up with in my spare time. I'd let them send me through hell and back and even to my own death sooner. I'd rather die free than live enslaved... it's called a moral clue and you should have one and sympathy.
-LaMeduck
A lease involves an exchange of exact predetermined goods (money for lodging). You can certainly sign away ideas and creative works (songs for example), but these are known quantities beforehand. The assertion that a company can lay claim to some yet-to-exist idea just because it occured to you during a tenure of employment -- when it has nothing to do with their business area -- is simply presposterous.
t y-lawyer puts it on paper, doesn't make it so. Contract disputes have to be resolved through litigation or arbitration all the time.
What next? If you write the Great American Novel (on your own time) while working for a company, can they lay claim to that too? And I'm sorry, I don't buy the argument that just because he raised it at work one day, they own it.
Worker Drone: "Hey, Tom. I finally finished my novel last night!"
Boss overhears: "It's ours!!!"
Just because an I-make-no-contribution-to-the-betterment-of-socie
Something people haven't been mentioning is that he developed and was working on this idea before he even began working for DSC.
Besides:
"Evan Brown is here by granted a released by DSC Communications Corporation to pursue this reverse engineering idea. This idea has been judged to not meet the criteria specified in DSC's "Employee Patent, Copyright and Proprietary Information Agreement" dated and signed April 27,1987 by Evan Brown."
The employee agreement did not give DSC rights to my "idea" but to patents, copyrights and trade secrets as specified in the agreement. You can read the agreement under the www.unixguru.com legal section.
:-(
Remember that just because you quit a job doesn't mean that your former employer won't sue you claiming that you actually developed your "idea" while working for them. If you will look at case law, you will find lots of examples of these lawsuits.
- Evan Brown
I was trying to help DSC by saving them about $1,500,000,000 in labor costs. I like the people I worked with and worked with DSC's legal team for about 9 months to come to a mutually acceptable agreement. If you read the exhibits in the legal section of www.unixguru.com, you will see that I was to be paid a percentage of the savings of the code converted. I wanted money from the savings because DSC was including code from their customer with their own code. My possition was, why should I convert their customers code for free when I knew that DSC was going to charge their customer for the conversion.
- Evan Brown
then boycott. Their consumer products include: GSM phones, an internet video-phone, and a sort of wireless phone+PDA.
t m and find your friendly neighborhood sales manager and inform them of your decision. You might also consider letting the folks at US West Wireless know (mailto:bxdavi2@uswest.com) - they've just signed a multiyear contract with Alcatel.
Send email to: global_services@www.alcatel.com then go to http://wwwusa.adn.alcatel.com/dataprod/salesoff.h
Remember, be polite.
Ownership of someone's thoughts is isane and impossible. That part of his contract should be disregarded because it is simply unreal. If he's working for them, and one Saturday makes a Quake map on his home PC, does his employer own it? If he is sitting on his toilet thinking, his employer can own that? I dont think so. Its impossible to own thoughts, and "Idea" is so vague it's beyond invalid. Define "idea." in the terms of this contract. It's B.S. His employer should be put on the rack for violating his biological right.
How can they deny you a trial? The Constitution specifically states that the right to trial shall be preserved when the value of the dispute exceeds $20.
Wow, I think I was around 10-12 feet from this guy when I went to see Randal's Just Another Convicted perl hacker talk in Dallas in September. This guy had spent like $120,000 (um I may have wrong number, it easily could have been more.) at the time fighting his company about the idea. I didn't have too much sympathy for him at the time (after it was in the contract at the time, wasnt it?) however, after learning the facts (He didn't have time to explain his facts and after all, they are suing him for an idea he has ONLY IN HIS HEAD AND COULD EVEN NOT EXIST or not work). Information from the Standard Times. I think we need a supreme court ruling (hopefully) to remove this bs from all contracts.
Somehow, with all the money he has spent, I don't think he is going to Open Source this code, unless he counter sues for all the money he had to spend.
If you will read the agreement, you will notice that the word "idea" does not exist in the document. The agreement refers to Patent, etc but not to "ideas". www.unixguru.com
- Evan Brown >
You're a nice kid, Danny boy, but a bit naive to think that the politicians and big business are anything but closely tied and in lock step. They don't even try to hide it- wake up! :)
... which is probably a smart thing. I've seen the AC know as Evan Brown make some *interesting* admissions in this thread. If he weren't an AC, the admissions could be very easily used against him. As it is, he can just say someone was posing as him.
Very good!
That is wonderful. DSC (collectively the people attacking Mr. Brown) should think before doing something this foolish. How many people are they effecting by doing this? How many could probably benefit from such an idea? Besides the fact, soon companies will start laying claims to ideas like a bowl of cereal when I'm thinking about having breakfast. How much can a company own you? If you have any thought, can they claim it? If I was working for a company designing hard drives and I suddenly came up with a brilliant idea for turning oranges into gold or something, could they claim it? I think that clauses that are in general designed to protect companies and prevent people from abusing their time at the company are now being turned to far more greedy and less ethical purposes.
So if it is true that if you wrote a program on
your own time and this violated a software
patent, would the employer be liable for the
damages given that they own the rights to the
program?
This is dumbfounding- our "court" system has degraded to Nazi levels. It's time for another Tea Party! We all HAVE to get off our butts and fight this- clog the congress with letters- real paper ones- please- everyone!
Evan- how can they prove what's in your mind? What if you got to court and said- "I've forgotten it", or "I've thought about it some more and I really don't have a workable idea any more than anything that's already been attempted" or "April Fools!" What- are they going to probe your mind? I used to work with EEG- they have little idea what that is, let alone reading thoughts.
I'm very sorry you spent a single penny defending this- I can't believe a court "ordered" (who the F___ do they think they are?) you to divulge your thoughts without a trial- I'd have simply said I don't have any- prove otherwise.
Hey idiots! You're missing the point. IDEAS CANNOT BE OWNED.
Evans did not produce any copyrighted work, or indeed anything patentable, at all. The whole thing never existed anywhere but in his head.
U.S. law is 100% behind Evans. YOU CANNOT PROTECT AN IDEA. That is because "ideas" are worthless.
I'm not going to comment on whether Evans' idea is worth anything... except to say that without a working implementation I wouldn't be inclined to take it seriously. Which is precisely why IDEAS CANNOT BE PROTECTED.
That is the core of the case. Maybe he was thinking Forbidden Thoughts while working for his employer, but there's nothing wrong with that. Even if his work is intellectual in nature, the company owns the END RESULT of his intellectual labor, NOT what HAPPENS DURING THE PROCESS of thinking.
Jesus. I can't believe some people are actually defending DSC. They are 100% in the wrong. You should be shouting about this injustice from the rooftops!
So does that mean if I my company use some of
my own time to work on their idea that they are
screwed and I own full rights to the idea?
Hey idiots! You're missing the point. IDEAS CANNOT BE OWNED.
Evans did not produce any copyrighted work, or indeed anything patentable, at all. The whole thing never existed anywhere but in his head.
U.S. law is 100% behind Evans. YOU CANNOT PROTECT AN IDEA. That is because "ideas" are worthless.
I'm not going to comment on whether Evans' idea is worth anything... except to say that without a working implementation I wouldn't be inclined to take it seriously. Which is precisely why IDEAS CANNOT BE PROTECTED.
That is the core of the case. Maybe he was thinking Forbidden Thoughts while working for his employer, but there's nothing wrong with that. Even if his work is intellectual in nature, the company owns the END RESULT of his intellectual labor, NOT what HAPPENS DURING THE PROCESS of thinking.
Jesus. I can't believe some people are actually defending DSC. They are 100% in the wrong. You should be shouting about this injustice from the rooftops!
Easy. Get a list of DSC employee e-mails. Write a up a short bit explaining what their company does to its employees, with links. Send (through anonymous remailer if you like, such as anonymous.to).
And darned if some of them don't quit!
The kind of discussion on slashdot is REALLY important to make sure we're not angry at DSC without cause.
But just discussing on slashdot isn't going to accomplish a whole lot. If we want DSC to stop, we need to HURT DSC. And with no other weapon but the truth.
-Eldritch Vapour
P.S. If & when you find the DSC employees' e-mail addresses, please post them here so people can participate. Thanks.
P.P.S. And quit whining that this would be spamming. Spam is commercial, this has a point!
I was fired by DSC on April 21,1997. I was working for the Motorola Cellular Division performing testbed support for their cellular switches.
The AIN/Wireless Division is another part of the company and their investigation began in May, after I had been fired.
- Evan Brown
If a company hires you to write code for an application, they own that application. They are paying you to write the code. I think everyone agrees here.
Now, say you use the code (or portions of it) for a project done in your own time and try to market this product..
How about if you are a system administrator at a large company, look at code for a project and use that to start a product of your own...
Adaptec has an intersting press release which involved former employees releasing a product with their code.
Bottom line: keep your mouth shut and don't sign stupid contracts. Especially if you are paid a flat salery, it is very difficult to prove what was done on "your" time and what wasn't. I've had one hourly-wage job where the employer put something like this in the agreement. That part got crossed out!
Wow - with all the stress this guy must have experienced I'd have forgotten the idea by now. What a pity.
Recently I read of a case where a man was sentanced to 10(?) years in prison for killing/brutalizing 5 cats. Why? Because lots of people (mostly out of jurisdiction at that) sent letters (inc. form letters provided by an animal rights group web site) to the court stating how 'offended' they were and recommending maximum penalties. If this works, why can't the opposite be true? Can we flood the Texas Court system w/ calm, reasoned letters objecting to the nature of the case brought by DSC? If you want to send snail mail objecting to this case, address all correspondence to:
The Honorable Curt Henderson
Judge, 219th District Court
Collin County Courthouse
210 S. McDonald Street
McKinney, TX 75069
(Address pulled from Even Brown's legal section)
-- Scarl (who's passwd don't seem to be doin' it)
ps - if anyone comes up w/ a reasonable form letter, perhaps a link to it would be appropriate.
Here are all the dsccc.com addresses I could find. Just did a search for "dsccc.com" -webmaster on altavista, got to the 120th page.
If you're planning on mass-mailing these people, I'd suggest you use an anonymous remailer (see http://anonymous.to), just in case DSC decides it wants to sue you.
-Mixolydian
Chris_Eich@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com
Clayton_Cramer@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com
James_Dehnert@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com
LWFERGUS@ccmail.dsccc.com
Mike_Rollins@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com
RBREWER@ccmail.dsccc.com
amarkus@ccmail.dsccc.com
amehta@spd.dsccc.com
andre@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
asagar@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
bdoan@spd.dsccc.com
beknal@spd.dsccc.com
bfortner@ccmail.dsccc.com
brp@dsccc.com
bschuhma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
bwolfe@ccmail.dsccc.com
cbaringe@ccmail.dsccc.com
cbird@optilink.dsccc.com
dmitchel@spd.dsccc.com
ecarp@tssun5.dsccc.com
elliott@optilink.dsccc.com
ess@spd.dsccc.com
ffinlay@ccmail.dsccc.com
gcochran@ccmail.dsccc.com
gdesoyza@altair.dsccc.com
jatucker@austin.dsccc.com
jbaumgar@ccmail.dsccc.com
jfusselm@spd.dsccc.com
jgbrown@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
jmccarty@spd.dsccc.com
jmilstea@spd.dsccc.com
jwang@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
jwilcox@ccmail.dsccc.com
kraney@spd.dsccc.com
kwagne@ccmail.dsccc.com
mhaase@ccmail.dsccc.com
mharriso@spd.dsccc.com
mmaranha@dsccc.com
mmarshal@spd.dsccc.com
mmccalpi@spd.dsccc.com
mulferts@spd.dsccc.com
nbond@lsi.dsccc.com
ncampbel@ccmail.dsccc.com
pwebb@ccmail.dsccc.com
rcovingt@CCMAIL.DSCCC.COM
recruit@dsccc.com
ress@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
rjoseph@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
rkshull@spd.dsccc.com
rmthomps@spd.dsccc.com
rwooten@spd.dsccc.com
s_nair@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
sadames@dsccc.com
sdulaney@ccmail.dsccc.com
sthursto@spd.dsccc.com
tadams@ccmail.dsccc.com
tholland@ccmail.dsccc.com
ttansil@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com
webmaster@dsccc.com
wjohnsto@tpd.dsccc.com
Hmm, the Evan Brown case has been going on for a long time now and most, if not, all of DSC employees know about it. No one has sympathy for him, and they think he's a greedy gus who turned down a fair offer from the company. So, if you spam the mailservers, you won't do much good, and the only thing that will result is a couple of postings on dsc.whine.
BTW, this isn't the first time DSC's done this. They've successfully sued a group of developers who used DSC IP (that they created) in their own business.
The idiots were stupid enough to create their business plan using DSC computers. Got spanked pretty hard in court if I remember it right.
...it's been done for ages already, see e.g. http://www.it.uq.edu.au/groups/csm/decompilation/
...and Digital has done binary-to-binary translation for Dog knows how many years, so this 'idea' is nothing new! Of course, that doesn't mean USPTO wouldn't let a company patent it!
The suggestion of criminal attacks against a company on an open forum such as SlashDot does nothing but lower the quality of users, tarnish the site's image, and bring possible legal risk to Slashdot's operators.
In other words, shut the fuck up. If you want to respond to nonsense like this with nonsense of your own, go spew it on one of the many mindless AOL rooms, Hotline servers, and "hacker" sites devoted to such noble acts as mail bombing, denial of service attacks, etc.
Do any of you know the concept of the "conspiracy" laws? Keep your stupid plans quiet and to yourselves or you threaten us all.
Im ashamed to see email lists of company employees posted here, when do we started trading credit card numbers and cell phone pins? Grow up, but until then go "play with their web servers or any other computer they have on the net" because we all KNOW that they will see reason when confronted with such a potent argument.
Losers be gone. A moment of silence please.
I am not a lawyer, so I am wondering since Evan Brown's idea is still completely conceived in his mind and have yet undergone implementation and testing phrase, even if he claims he has the key solution to the problem of converting old code from binaries to other languages, for an untested idea, if he is ordered to disclose it, what is his legal obligation whether his idea is valid or not? If DSC indeed owns Evan Brown's idea that have yet committed to any media, can the exact amount of the idea they own be defined????
In the late 1960s Dr Irvin M. Miller working at IBM in Pougkeeepsie, New York developed a number of tools that would "disassemble" or "decomplie" from "machine" code to either assembly language or to a higher level language. Dr. Miller published paper on the technique and, I believe, filed patents.
Cool stuff, but the variable names, being machine generated, were a little cryptic to say the least.
Artch
James A Griffin
agriffin@cpcug.org
Please, please don't do this. This will not help anyones case. Send mail to the judge if you wish to help this guy.
So if you are thinking and planning out a romantic weekend with your mate, does your place of employment own that idea and all derived works (Children? Allowed to video tape the action and sell it?)? Where do the thoughts that take place in any human mind throughout the day cross the line and suddenly become the property of your employer? Is it anything they deem profitable? If I have dreams of making the most wonderful hotrod while daydreaming at work during a boring meeting, will the company then own that car as well? There MUST be an end to companies attempting to control our own souls. We are free thinking human beings. We can't shutoff our non-work related thoughts when we step into our office any easier than we can cease breathing their air while at work!
Remember what a contract is - an AGREEMENT between parties. Cross out those bits you don't agree with and sign it. Amend those bits you think should be amended. If you don't understand it, DON'T SIGN.
I did this when employed at Unisys, for this type of clause, and another that said I wouldn't work for any competitor for 6 months. I recieved the contract back with their signatures on.
No grim "I own your brain" clauses, you get paid full price for your work and you can walk away from idiots and keep your health insurance.
Damn it! I hit my head the other day ... now what was I thinking about? If you think DSC has a hope in hell of getting something out of his head your smoking some crack. His idea was totally unrealated to his work, the reason he went to his employers was because he perhaps thought they were fair and just... and if they wanted him to work on this "idea" they could pay him more. His job in the company was not to come up with ideas in his free time. It was to do the job (work 9-5) as his employers asked him to. Anything extra in his and my mind is OVERTIME and should be paid extra for.
His work could be left somewhere with poor security. If the location fell into the "wrong" hands it could find it's way out of DSC's reach.
What if he doesn't have an idea, or he forgets something, or he's not articulate enough to express it clearly, or the compant doesn't understand the idea?
It's my experience that ideas "in my head" are very difficult to express clearly enough to write programs, or descriptive papers. I go as far as to say that writing the ideas down, in full, is called "research".
Frankly, my head is full of great ideas. I still expect it to take a few decades to articulate them satisfactorily.
If this is the case, then DSC needs to pay him back-pay for working for them 24-hours a day. Unrelated independent thought is hardly owned by a company. Many contracts have specific non-compete clauses - often, these are illegal and not binding. Just because it's in a contract, doesn't make it legal!
... which of course I can't find.
I was told by a client while drafting a contract that the Texas Workers Commission made a nice ruling on a sort of related clause... Something to the point that if a company requires non-competetion clause in your contract for a certain duration after termination, they are required to -pay- you for that duration. I never could find it... he could of been full of it... but maybe someone knows where to look for this. I'm getting interested enough to go dig deeper myself, now...
It wouldn't be such a twist to turn the logic behind that ruling to invalidate IP clauses in some kinds of contracts (hourly, at least)... Companies asserting this would be forced to pay everyone 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
It's a fairly standard contract in the tech industry; you really have to be careful about what you sign and if you have any doubts or questions, you should talk to a lawyer. It might boil down to you having to refuse a job because the contract is unpalatable to you; sometimes the company will change it for you and sometimes they won't.
It seems to me that this kind of idea has great applicability to Y2K problems. I think that Evan is concerned about setting this idea free (as opposed to making some sum of money larger than the $2 million he was offered for it) he should seek protection under the Y2K act.
The Fed has encouraged companies and people to make information useful in solving Y2K related problems freely available. If this is described as a Y2K related idea (and it is... ask any Y2K guy working on a machine code on a mainframe for which there is no source), then the Fed could help establish this idea as being 'public domain'.
I can't help but whanter why DSC wants to antagonize the high-tech workers of the world. Don't they realize we actually talk to each other?
Do YOU know what fascist means? Where in its definition to you find "murder" or "concentration camp?" The idiocy continues.
Is it just me, or does it seem there is a continuous stream of TOTAL LEGAL SHIT rolling out of Texas? I mean, like every week. Jeez, I thought Tennessee was bad. You guys down there need to lynch a bunch of lawyers & judges (lawyers in drag).
Catch the quickest *inconspicuous* transportation to a non-WIPO-friendly country without extradition treaties with the US, then publish. Consider working out the legal mess later from the safe haven of a country that respects freedom, rather than a fascist industrial empire like the US, but on YOUR TERMS, not the brain damaged court's terms. Did I miss anything?
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
No one owns data that exists only on one's brain.
The company owns all work the employee ***PRODUCES*** . A thought in one's head is not a product.
If I come up with using all of my employer's resources. I can quit before revealing it and go and start my own company. My employer owns the idea no more that he can prohibit me from using what I've learned working for him on my next job.
My gripe about employee contracts (and I've signed a lot of
them over the years), is that you don't even see the contract
until you show up for the first day of work. By then, of course,
you've already quit your previous job. So what are you to do
if you don't like it?
These contracts remind me of the shrink-wrapped software
licenses which you don't get to see until you've opened the
box.
Bringing a more international viewpoint to this thread, it's difficult to see how this could be enforced outside the US. What's to stop Evan moving over here to Europe or elsewhere to work?
I have to post this anonymously...
My company required me to sign not only a non-disclosure agreement, and an agreement to not work at a company that competes (or even a position doing exactly the same thing I'm doing now) for 2 years after I leave here, but also that anything I develop while I'm employed... whether at home in my spare time or at work during 9-5, belongs to them.
Hey, I signed it. The money's good, the stocks are better, and when I'm done, I still have tons of options.
Who's to complain? I signed it willingly.
I live in the DFW area and work in the
Telecommunications industry. Every person
I have met who worked at DSC has nothing
good to say about the company. Those that
I met that do work there don't have much to
say except that the compensation and benefits
are excellent, especially since Alcatel bought
them out. I heard that basically it was
founded by a bunch of ex-millitary guys and
the company culture reflects that. In addtion
the folks that I have met who do work there
are usually in the demographic group that has
families to support and a lifestyle to go with
it. In essence they are nearly trapped there
or would take a signifigant hit in their life
style if they left.
microsoft..no doubt. i've heard about this one thru a former ms employee..i thought it wasa 5 years though..not 2. try reading your contract better.
um, the original granting of a release, means that he may use the idea regardless of when developed. that is part of any non-comp/ip that i have ever signed
I work for a 250-person firm that does take out patents and has some pretty hot people working for it; it also has permanent legal staff on the payroll. When I got the contract I thought it was ludicrously strong and immediately demanded some changes. After quite a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, we managed to find wording acceptable to us both; it basically claims ownership of any ideas relevant to the work of the business. I'm the only person at my work to have done this. In fact , I'm the only person I've ever even heard of to have haggled over any employment terms other than salary with any joy.
And while I'm pretty good at what I do I'm not some sort of intensely desirable "big name"; my salary, while fine enough, is far from astronomical.
I still back Brown against his employers, but it's a warning to everyone out there: *read* contracts, and *question* parts you don't like. If they tell you "Oh that's just legalese, we'd never enforce it" then say "So I can strike it out just now then, can I?" - striking it out with the pen you're holding for signing it is perfectly good from a legal point of view, and it throws the "don't you trust me?" line back onto them.
So what happens if you're a fry cook at McDonald's, and on your free time you come up with workable plans for a perpetual motion machine. Does McDonald's own your invention?
Atlas Shrugged was named the second most influential book by "Book of the Month" Subscribers. The Bible was named first. It is NOT "tripe", whether or not you were personaly influenced by it.
Would he be able to counter-sue for backpay if he loses?
all inventions ... made or conceived by me ... from the time of entering the Company's employ until I leave
It seems to me, that if he can actually show that he'd been working on this idea for a decade prior to enterning DSC's employ, he could successfully argue that the idea does not fall under this contract, which applies to ideas conceived at or after the time his employment began. This would be a step toward justice. A bigger step toward justice would be a rejection of such broad contract clauses as legally non-binding.
the reverse eng. idea can be enhanced. Get all
uP & OS-specs for all sorts of platforms you want
to run on your (linux-)OS. There's probably some
general idea behind compulanguages. Isn't this a
great idea (duh).
--dsa b'vo
Things like the presumption of innocence and the standard of reasonable doubt only apply to criminal cases, not civil.
It's largely up to the judge's discretion. If the judge doesn't like you, he can cite you for contempt for looking at him funny.
...on the contract? Sure he could get sued big time, but this seems to be the logical course of action if he doesn't want to get owned... A contract doesn't make things inhernetly happen; it's just an agreement that people will do things. Thus, no one `owns his ideas' in the perverse american legal sense of intellectual property until he transfers ownership; he just agreed that he would transfer ownership, but under US law he can break that contract...
Of course, the US courts' interpretations of US law are completely fucked up...
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
No such thing as intellectual property => no issue. It's as simple as that. IP is pure bullshit. Not to mention what I think of contract law.
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
I'm sick of whining the-law-is-god self-rightous pittiless morons like you who think it ``serves someone right'' just for agreeing to the contract, as though a person is some sort of hideous monster for getting himself fucked over. Do you think it serves musicians right that they get fucked over my the music industry and the RIAA? I hope not.
;) Big Brother might be watching you... :|
Just because something is law does not make it right. That the law even acknowledges such a thing as ownership of ideas is absurd! Sure, this guy should not have agreed to stupid contract terms, but face it: MOST PEOPLE feel pressured into doing so, and think it's the only way. I'm glad I learned the hard way a few years ago what can happen when you say you agree to terms you find repulsive (altho it had nothing to do with IP). However, people like me who refuse to have anything to do with stupid contracts (and who avoid all contracts as much as possible) are very rare; most people, like good little feudal peasants, listen to the voices of the wealthy and powerful, which say ``Sign here and you'll be safe. Don't pay attention to that part that says I'll own you; that's just something everyone has to `agree' to...'' As if it's even agreement...bah! How many contracts do you think are signed *in agreement*? Approximately 10 per year on the entire planet, perhaps? *sigh* If contract law really required an *agreement* (something really believed and felt, not just meaningless words) for the contract to be valid, just about every contract in place would immediately dissolve.
OK, enough. You get the point. Now get back to work, cubicle slave, before you get caught reading slashdot!
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
...to bend over and take it in the ass? Oh, wait, what's the difference?
I suggest you go give Bill a blowjob when you get done adding bugs to doze2k; he might give you a promotion... People like you make me sick...bleh.
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
...to write code that doesn't meet the DFSG. See, isn't it stupid not to be able to use perfectly good existing code, because someone else claims ownership to it? It feels even more absurd when you wrote it, eh? :(
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
Need I say more? We are NOT all in agreement; some of us acknowledge that IP is pure nonsense!
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
All of that is easy to boycott, except perhaps Bell Atlantic for people in some areas. You should already be boycotting MCI, btw, with all the bs they do. Need a summary of it? Here:
Long distance scams.
10-10-bullshit. (Yes, all of the major 10-10- services are owned by MCI's puppet companies.)
Bullying the owner of a site (www.packetloss.org or something like that...) that published factual stats on how pittiful MCI's routes are. Check *OLD* slashdot articles for details.
Hypocritically claiming in their advertisements to be bringing us into a new age of freedom and enlightenment, while in actuality infringing on freedom of speech/press (see above).
Buying that damn commercialist logo on the communications systems in Earth: Final Conflict (which would horrendously offend Gene Rodenbery (sp?) if he could see it)...as if in the future the net will be owned by MCI - yep, that's how they want it to be.
Need I say more?
- RF (dfelker@cnu.edu)
This is in no way an American only thing. I know that these sorts of contracts are used in Sweden too, and probably other countries as well. Of course, it might just be scare tactics, and it is probably illegal, but that wouldn't necessarily stop some company for suing someone for breach of contract, hoping that the courts would accept the contract.
Personally I wouldn't sign a contract that said the company I worked for got any rights to things I did outside of work that are unrelated to what the company does.
1. Leave the country permanently. Then publish & GPL the idea.
or
2. Disclose a bogus idea that doesn't work. Then wait until the dust settles and produce your real idea.
No?
Zoloft
I recall a case here in California about a man who left one employer for another in the same business in violation of a non-compete clause in the NDA he signed upon employment. Now, many people don't seem to know it (and many employers deny it), but non-compete contracts are illegal in California. There is a specific law disallowing them. So you would have thougt this guy was home free, right?
Nope. The company he left sued him. They also got an injunction forbidding him from working in the field until the case was settled. They then threatened to sue any employer who hired him if they were in a similar business. He won in the end, of course. After all, the non-compete clause was illegal. But he went bankrupt fighting it. And you can imagine what his career prospects were like after a protracted legal battle with his previous employer.
Just another way of ensuring that 'employee' translates to 'property'. I wonder if this guy has asked the ACLU to weigh in on this?
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
it would be time to play with their web servers or any other computer they have on the net. maybe we should do that anyway
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
I find it hard to believe that what he is talking about will prove feasible or useful. Granted, dissasembling into , say, C is not a trivial task, but it is also not _that_ hard, and has probably been done before. But more to the point, even if he can do this, will such C code be useful to anyone? It will probably be gibberish with meaningless variable and function names. And if those symbols are in fact included in the original binary code, then what is so complicated about the process anyway?
Posted by grahamatwork:
I quite agree. Fascist is a greatly overused insult. What this company have done is hardly comparable with mass murderers and concentration camps .
Posted by stodge:
companies put a clause into contracts which state that anything you produce is the property of the company you work for. Whether that means stuff you produce outside of work, I dont know, but I remember reading it in my contract.
Since his employer is the one suing him, the burden of proof should be on them. That is the way the legal system is supposed to work in this country (aren't we still innocent until proven guilty? or is that just another load they feed us to get us to sit idly by while those with the money do as they please?). If the law has somehow changed, I want to know when, why, and who was responsible. Otherwise, unless they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he came up with his idea on company time, then they don't have a case. I seriously doubt they can prove that, so I agree with the other posters above who say that DSC is 100% wrong here, for the reason I just gave as well as the reasons they gave.
Even if they do find some loophole in the law that allows them to win a case against him, it's still wrong. If I were him there's no way I'd give people like that my idea. I'd be thinking up some idea that I know won't work and give them that instead. Since he hasn't done anything with his idea, he can't show that it ever worked. They don't know what his idea is, so they will have to take whatever he gives them.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Let's turn that around. At times, past employers have called me at home (that is to say, on my time) needing ideas and input. By your argument, the moment I answered, the entire related project became MY PERSONAL PROPERTY!.
Sorry, it doesn't work like that in anything vaguely related to a just system of laws and ethics.
In this particular case, the idea was unrelated to his employment, and pre-existing.
Let's take the argument to the next logical case. I work for company A where I create new ideas for them (undisputed). Now, for whatever reason, I terminate my employment volentarily and amicably. Now, I work for company B. For whatever reason, a thought randomly pops into my head and solves a problem I was assigned to at company A. A co-worker asks me what the AH-HA look was all about. I briefly sumarise. Now, who owns that idea, Me, Company A, or Company B?
Under DSCs argument, Company B owns the whole thing. Company A might well argue that they own the whole thing. Personally, I would argue that I own the solution I came up with, Company A owns what I thought of while working for them, and Company B owns what I think of that is related to their projects.
Consider for a moment, the utter legal chaos that would result for any solution but the one I gave above.
Describe to the best of your ability an 8088 ML to tiny basic converter.:
What do you mean Tiny BASIC isn't a high level language?
The problem with court ordering this sort of disclosure is that there is absolutely no way to factually determine weather or not the disclosure was made in full, or at all.
--
--
I noticed
It's getting about time to leave everywhere
OK, but what is the definition of "work". Does an idea in his head count as "work"?
People think that the government will be the one to create a 1984-type scenario, and look to the private sector for salvation. I think that if any such thing occurs (which would be..let's say..unfortunate ;) ) it's much more likely to be caused by companies jockeying for power, money and 'intellectual property' than by politicians hunting for votes. This article is, of course, a perfect example...
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
My question is: whose email address at DSC do we spam?
I read that and I just get this sinking feeling reading about all the motions overturned, contempt of court, etc.
Suck.
> OTOH, you don't have to sign the agreement. Just if you want to eat.
Yep. Remember, this agreement is COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. Any extra leverage they have over you is a lie spread by the Commies....
-Chris
Option 1: If he's so smart, he can leave out a crucial component and play dumb about it.
...) and so pollute the idea with other people's patented processes that there is nothing left for Alcatel to profit from.
....
Option 2: Go to the IBM patent server, read any patent that is at all relevant to decompilation (IBM, Digital, Pure,
In any case, he won't profit from this idea, so I hope he's working on others. By opening his mouth, he screwed himself. Were it me, realizing that I'd never make a dime from it, I'd take a long vacation with my laptop and drop some code on some ftp servers
Contempt findings usually result from witnesses refusing to answer questions on the stand,
counsel wasting time in court. Playing games in front of a jury to cause a mistrial. Pretty much
whatever the judge sitting on the case doesn't like (your hair, your attire). In rare cases,
the opposing counsel can make a motion to the judge to do this, but it is pretty much at the
judge's discretion.
The legal basis for contempt is similar to the right police have to hold people who get drunk
in jail for 24 hours without charging them with a crime. Amazingly enough, this is not considered
punishment under the law.
The only other recourse you have if a judge throws this on you is to take it up with another judge.
Otherwize 24 hours in a holding cell or until court is back in session which ever is first.
Punishment for breaking laws in the US requires due process including the presentation of charges.
In most juristictions, the judges cannot charge people so unless the district attorney's office
thinks there is a case, nothing will happen and after 24 hours the person is released. Note that
in most cases, things that you can do to draw a contempt finding are not actually illegal, so
you really can't get charged with breaking any laws.
So in the MSFT case, the judge cannot charge the witness with perjury or anything like that so he's
just letting it go. It's up to the procecution to make the case that the evidence is wrong. In
addition, if the justice dept thinks that there is evidence tampering or lying, they can prosecute
the people involved, and if it affects the current case they can probably get a new trial contingent
of the procecution for perjury. Double whammy.
The moral is, it never pays to lie on the stand unless you are 110% sure you can get away with it!
When you get paid a salary (and not a wage), you should expect to agree to certain demands that may seem Orwellian but are actually quite reasonable (given the fact that you are paid a salary). For example, many companies forbid you to moonlight without your supervisor's approval. This allows the employer to screen out potential conflicts of interest (for example, a boss forcing underlings to become network marketing distributors).
However, there are (or should be) certain common-sense limitations to the rights of employers, no matter what you "agree" to in your employment contract. If you write the Great American Novel in your spare time while you are employed by a corporation, then would you say that the corporation is entitled to royalties? What about if you draw up plans for a tool shed in your spare time? (Key words being, "in your spare time.") DSC may have the legal right to steal Brown's ideas, but DSC and the state of Texas roundly deserve to be laughed at if DSC has that right.
I work for a big company. I like it there. The only thing I don't like is the sweeping IP agreement I signed which basically means if I create anything remotely related to computers my employer owns it. Which is why I had to stop my work on the Internet for now.
It is quite a drag but that guy should have known better. I know that I'm not working on anything till either I leave the company or expect them to take their cut.
The bottom line is they can't control what you think-- but don't 'work' on it till after you leave the company. I got plenty of ideas but none of them are anywhere but my head.
I think we all feel for the guy but the law is the law -- he's probably going to lose.
Is it possible to sign away all your rights? OK, I know that's not the case, but what rights can't you sign away?
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Ownership of any ideas created while working for that company
... we're going to need a bigger wall
So while you are sitting at home, are you 'working for the company'.
While camping on the weekend, are you 'working for the company'?
While fast asleep in your bed are you 'working for the company'?
<CLUE> Have you heard of this amazing concept called nine-to-five? Basic human rights? </CLUE>
Eeek, cyberpunk is here and I didn't notice.
Looks like the CEO of Daewoo failed to meet his contractual obligations huh?
Come the revolution
A contract containing illegal clauses is not legally binding. If you sign a contract to steal something, that contract is in no way binding, and obviously cannot be enforced. Property laws do not cover thoughts. In fact, I very much think it is against the law to own ideas :) Thus, if thoughts *can't* be owned, the contract is not in any ways be binding.
Claude Angers
Of course, we should also be aware that such an innovation would give pause to the ISV's that are currently supporting linux(no one wants their IP usurped even if it is a *really* good hack) -- witness the UltraHLE problems/issues.
--
I have no sig.
If this guy's decompiler idea is particularly good, it would be too tempting for his boss not to go after him.
Word to the wise.
Usealy your employer own all the IP you create, in or out of work time is not relevant.
If you want to create and have the IP for yourself have your employer explicitly agree to this.
Wouldn't it just serve them right if they went through a decade of litigation to get ahold of this idea and it turned out to be stupid?
I'll never sign a contract again. Sheesh.
Vince
Linux help for beginners to advanced users: Control-Escape.com
logan
He claims he started thinking about the idea 12 years before he started working at DSC.
TWELVE YEARS!!!
--
Infuriate left and right
"So, you've been mentally formulating a way to convert old computer code into new languages, eh? As you've sold your soul to us, you're obliged to tell us what that idea is. Or we'll have to remove your brain and pickle it, until such a time as science can reverse-engineer the idea from the network of synaptic connections that have been created throughout your life's experience."
*sound of trousers being filled*
"OK then, it looks like I'll have to spill the beans.
*gulp*
"My idea is that in order to convert an old computer program to high level code, you have to load it into a program which analyses the code byte by byte, looking for patterns in the code that cross-reference to a 'dictionary', eg. of compiled functions and their higher level code equivalents. To get the code, just substitute the patterns for the functions, et voila! There's your totally portable, high level code."
"Is that your idea?"
"Yes".
"You spent 15 years of your life coming out with an idea like *that*?"
"I'm a slow thinker."
"But it seems to me that your idea is flawed. How can it possibly work? If it were that easy, surely somebody would have created something which already does that?"
"Hey, it's just an idea. I'm sure the technical details will sort themselves out once the implementation has begun. Ideas are merely processes, after all."
"So you haven't got any ideas about how your idea would be technically implemented, so to speak?"
"Weeelll, not yet. I haven't even gotten around to writing this idea on a piece of paper yet, have I? I guess I need to develop my ideas a bit further before I come up with a working implementation. I've heard that the Perl regex engine is pretty powerful, though..."
"Oh great. Fantastic. Got any more bright ideas, sunshine?"
"Well, I do have this idea about turning oranges into gold..."
Read my online journal: http://chris.carline.org
There's been quite a bit of work on binary-to-binary translation as well as binary-to-high level language translation, including a few startup companies in the field (I know of a small German startup that's doing very fast instruction set simulators for DSP processors this way). These guys have working code. What does this lone genius have? An idea, he says. An idea and a dollar gets you a cup of coffee.
If the idea really exists only in this guy's head, it's no idea at all ... you have to prove these things out with software and testing, as well as peer review.
Just the same, I hope this guy wins ... though he should have just taken the $2 million if the story is true. The normal going rate to compensate engineers for inventions is far less.
hey, then he could sue _THEM_ for causing his idea to evaporate due to stress....thus potentially losing him millions of dollars.
:)
and then watch their lawyers scatter trying to prove that an idea isn't worth anything.
"The things we wizards have to put up with."--Jethro Bodine
This poor fellow is experiencing the joys of intellectual property laws in Texas. I hate to say it, but he was screwed from the beginning. You need to pay attention to your contract and to the local laws. In Texas, employers have rights to intellectual property their employees produce, be it at work or home. However, this is not the case in California.
;)
Being an EE student in Texas, this is unappealing. If i create something at home, I dont want to go to court with my employer. This law clearly benefits the companies.
But, I think this law sucks. This law will only serve to stymie the growth of high tech in Austin and Dallas.
Somebody with legal experience please clarify this, as I am sure I've been imprecise in legal terms.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
Wonder whats going to happen when it does.
/. months ago... no?
I totally dont get it. If this story is so amazing
where's the freakin update? Anyone think of going
to conventional media to follow up on what
happened? It woulda been all over CNN, and therefore posted to
So hard to get administrivial ideas like this up
to the top of slashdot staff... all the commentary
below is ON TOPIC, not related to the management
of the story on the site. My post will be lost
in about 10-15 minutes among others...
I'm curious if anyone has successfully changed their contract and been hired into a company. Maybe we should come up with a contract that employers have to sign before we agree to be hired. Companies that agree to this will get the best and the brightest employees.
Discovery == the legal term: prosecution is required to reveal the documents and arguments they will make to the defense.
:)
This means they lose a big legal advantage on the final decision if he drags ass.
It doesn't mean he can't discover anything new
I know this wouldn't be an issue in California. California law specifically excludes work done outside of the company from being attached by any contract. We have to look at what is reasonable. Your logic that anything signed is valid would lead to the ludicrous as in the "We've come for your liver" Monty Python sketch. Contracts cannot break the law or violate basic human rights and dignity.
tom
Bzzt. DSC isn't right. If it were, someone could hide things in the small print that say you are the person's personal slave. This isn't rational. It violates us all deeply.
tom
sorry.
don't buy it.
let's say that i work for a potato-chip manufacturer, and while in the grocery store one day, i devise a much more efficient, elegant way of stacking raw potato bags (*not* potato-CHIP bags) in an in-store display.
i mention to my coworker that i have devised this amazingly elegant potato-bag-stacking methodology, and i begin to devise ways of making a business out of said method, including but not limited to patenting the process by which i do said stacking...
so, if i'm reading your defense of dsc correctly, you believe that my potato-chip-employer can lay claim to my potato-bag-stacking prowess, simply because potatos were involved, and i *just happened* to work for a company that dealt in potatos???
don't buy it..
not even a bit.
what i *DO* buy is that if i sign a clause of this nature that makes their property all products, algorithms, & concepts WHILE ON THEIR CLOCK working toward THEIR GOALS, i'm legally bound.
clearly, in the scenario i gave, i was not working on their clock nor toward their goals in devising my method, however i did mention the concept while on their clock... i believe this case is quite analogous to the dilemma he's in.
i have been told on numerous occations that such contracts are *rarely* enforcable in court.
guess we'll see...
Peter
wow.
:(
you sure you're not a lawyer?
that's exactly the reply i'd expect from a bad (or good, depending upon the vantage point) one...
was anyone ACTUALLY confused about this facet of my example? wasn't this an obvious implication?
somehow, i figure most reasonable readers wouldn't have wasted the time to point this out...
me
Did you sign a contract when you were hired? If so, you should go back and read it...you may be shocked. After reading this, I just went over to my filing cabinet and dug out my original contract for my present employer. Guess what, not only did I give them all rights to anything I develop now, but they also have rights to anything I develop within two years after leaving their employ.
Here's where it gets funny. I also still have the contract from my last employer, and they have rights to anything developed while I worked for them or developed one year after I left the company. Now, I've only worked here 9 months. Does this all mean that if I came up with a cool idea tomorrow, these two big companies would be forced to battle over the legal ownership of an idea that only exists in my head? That's nuts (but it'd be kinda funny to see).
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
"Death penalty sanction" is legal jargon for a permanent decision that injures the party sanctioned. e.g. A contractor cheats on the federal government, they receive a death penalty sanction for no more govt contracts, ever.
In this case it probably means, "no more high-tech employment for the programmer".
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
Again, the "death penalty sanction" is only legal jargon for the judge banning Evans from ever selling his idea to a competitor. It has nothing to do with the criminal death penalty, which even in Texas you must commmit a felony to deserve!
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
Has he not thought about just saying,
"With all the stress of this legal thing, I have forgotten the procedure. Oh darn, now I can't tell anybody about it."
Nobody can prove or disprove this. After a year or so, he suddenly remembers and makes bucks out of it.
:-)
The interesting thing in this case is that the person has never written down the idea in full. He says he has a solution, and maybe it will work, but I think you will find that the courts will not compel anyone to disclose an idea that is still in their head.
Of course, once its written down then its intellectual property and that is a different matter.
The stupidity of Alcatel DSC and similar firms is that no one with any brains is going to work there. They sound like complete shitheels.
Doesn't this remind you of a dilbert cartoon where they were supposed to sign over their rights to their DNA and all derivative works.
I think in most states the non-compete clauses and
they ownership of projects tend to non-enforcable in court. I hope this case turns out that way, AND SOON!
I don't see how they can claim ownership to an idea that was developed 80% before he became employed. Maybe he could turn over just the 20% (hopefully useless) that was developed while with DSC?
I think this case would have been thrown out long ago except if the idea was less lucrative. With so much money involved (potentially) the courts want to back the company that could affard to sue them later. If they would go ahead and get the case over with maybe the government could be using the approach to solve y2k issues?
Good Luck,
Chuck
I have. Both as an employee and a consultant.
When I am asked to sign a contract as an independent consultant the companies usually have a stock contract the give you to sign. I read through all the legalese(sp?) and explain any problems I have with the contract. Usually it involves non-compete clauses or IP. If you ask them to rewrite those sections to address your concerns you can usually get them to just strike those clauses.
Chuck
I think that greed, to some degree, is present in us all, and this guy certainly exhibits it. He gambled that DSC would be willing to pony up more money and he lost. To draw the analogy to a close, when you gamble and lose, your money's gone. You don't whine to the casino that they should have let you win.
Probably the "right" thing would be for DSC to drop the issue and let him develop his "idea" independently, but I think that it's pretty clear that the law is going to come out on their side. Maybe with their acquisition by Alcatel things will change, but the net result is that it's probably a good thing to read what's in that employment agreement before you sign it.
Perhaps Evan should be the postor boy for the caveat emptor society.
hardcase
It's a classic case of possession being 9/10 of the law.
As a sidenote, can someone please explain what it takes for a contempt of court conviction? Is fabricating fake evidence in a video good enough (you know who I'm talking about)?
Hurricane Application Group, Dept of Meteorology Control, Ministry of Proactive Defense
This is contrary to American policy! An individual is entitled to his ideas. He can do whatever the hell he wants with them, not be dictating by a stupid corporation. If Bill Gates wishes to make a billion dollars off his idea, so be it. If Linus Torvalds wishes to make his software free for all to use and modify, so be it. BUT don't tell either one they must submit their own creation to your governing!
ul|tma -At least we all use linux-
"Up sh*t creek without a paddle" ring any bells here?
.... isn't it beautiful?
This guy made his fisrt (and critical) mistake when he divulged his thoughts to his employer. Even though the solution was not there yet, the "idea" of the whole concept was. Granted, the solution probably is a key part, but I'm sure DSC could figure that out on themselves if they get the rest of the details, which they should in this case.
I agree with the statement above that the guy was probably trying to "double-dip"; keeping his current salary and earning a double income from the profits of his idea on the side. Greed
I also agree that he should have quit DSC, and then magically conceived the solution, without breathing a word about the idea to anyone at DSC.
However, from what I can see about the history of this, the individual with the idea seems to incredibly stubborn (I can't blame him, I'd be stubborn too if I made a big mistake with a 15 year-old idea like he did.) I would say that any chance of this idea actually coming to life from this is next to zero.
Someone should come up with another method to do this, and then release the source under the GNU GPL.
"I will communicate to an officer of the Company promptly and fully all inventions (including but not limited to all matters subject to patent, i.e., processes, machines, computer programs, etc.) made or conceived by me (whether made solely by me or jointly with others) from the time of entering the Company's employ until I leave, (1) which are along the lines of the business, work or investigations of the Company or of companies which it owns or controls at the time of such inventions, or (2) which result from or are suggested by any work which I may do for or on behalf of the Company." as quoted in Brown v. DSC Communications Corporation, Inc., Court of Appeals of Texas, Fifth District, January 6th, 1998.
The thing to remember in this kind of case is that the "basic" right that the courts are going to uphold is not any sort of right regarding what's in Evan Brown's head. What they are going to judge to be more important is the power of Brown and DSC to enter into a binding contract. Contracts give individuals and corporations of individuals the power to make "little laws" which the courts will then treat as binding. Unless there is a specific piece of legislation in Texas forbidding contracts of this nature, or there is some sort of rule of law already invalidating this (there seems to be neither), the contract is valid. It also seems to apply under clause (1).
You have the power, under contract law, to promise your ideas to someone else before you even complete them, and to make that promise legally enforceable in court. Evan Brown did it, maybe without even paying close attention to what he was doing. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of case law or legislative legal background which is going to give him a way out. We can say that a company shouldn't be able to have any say over one's ideas -- I'm inclined to agree. However, we still have the power and freedom to make them, and unless we pass laws taking away that freedom (which in turn could conceivably be struck down by courts), contracts like these are going to continue to hold up in court. The law doesn't do much, if anything, to protect someone for failing to read his contract carefully.
If you're involved in any sort of software engineering or development and working for a company which does any of that sort of thing at all, you should probably check your contracts over. Brown's contract didn't distinguish between what he did on company time and what he did on private time, so the contract reads on its face as implying "everything," and I expect that's how it will continue to be interpreted. I think that the way the courts will look at this is that Brown's ability to commit himself in this way is one of his personal freedoms or powers.
The point is that in the lease contract examples above, the contract is void if the contract specifies something which is a violation of law. Because Texas has no law forbidding this kind of contract, the contract is legal and binding in Texas. At least, so it seems thus far.
1) Suppose Mr. Brown wants to find out if his employer has any interest in joining him in a venture based on an idea he had in his spare time.
He can either: a) send an official letter to the company while not at work or b) bring up the idea to his supervisor/whatever while at work.
Since you're stating that (b) constitutes doing work on his idea while on company time, you might do a bit of work backing up your assertion.
The late Italian artist Piero Manzoni canned his
own feces back in 1961 as "art objects". The latest sale was $28,000 for one tin in July 1998.
(source: News of the Weird) So tell me...since
canned feces are apparently so valuable, if marketed with the right spin, do they count as inventions? And does your employer own any that you "work on" while on the clock? Can they sue you if you flush without first giving them a chance to cash in?
DSC (or whatever the company name is) are a
bunch of Fascists. The fact that this is even
viewed as legit is laughable.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't they fire him? Wouldn't their happy intellectual property clause in his contract terminate with the contract? If they manage to get this out of him, it will just further my distaste for the "wonderful" place we call America.
Zeitgeist
perl -e 'print "zj5GuPW9b.sEiQQVgvL1Tr." ^ pack("H48","000f5c3312353e4a166e12311d363d3905172
If they still want you to disclose your idea for $45/hr, why don't you just sit in a cube over there, roll your eyes back and sleep.
or spout out prophesy (gibberish)...
or play Quake...
or run around screaming like a wild bonobo.
or give them the answer in 0's and 1's
(it does reverse engineer machine code, eh?)
Hail to the Sun God! He is the Fun God! Ra! Ra! Ra!
Folks, read your employment contracts, and if legal jargon puts you off hire a competent attorney to interpret it for you. Remember you have every right to cross out a part of the contract you don't like, even write in a new part, initial it, and make it binding. I do this all the time, and the counter-party usually has absolutely no problems with it. I always insist upon total ownership of all work performed outside of "work for hire".
Most managers couldn't give a rat's ass about what their company lawyers wrote in for intellectual property coverage, and if you talk to them about it, you will find they will accept the common sense idea that you own the work you produce on your own time with your own resources. Keep a journal of your work like scientists keep a notebook, and if you keep a timesheet and incorporate, you get to call yourself a business and can find some favorable tax treatment; I'm oversimplifying for brevity, so educate yourself on the specifics. Finally, remember to always keep your own copy of originally signed contracts, find out what the longest statute of limitations that apply in your locality are, and archive the dead-tree stuff for at least that period.
The new economy brought us (or at least those of us who contract) many new benefits and opportunities, but it also brings with it new responsibilities. The last time I checked, overly broad intellectual property clauses are usually struck down, but expensive to take to court and bring down. If Brown attempts to fight this, precedent is with him in general (though I'm not claiming it is in this specific instance --- don't know enough about the particulars), but it will likely cost him dearly.
If there is an AM talk radio station in your area, call them and ask if a program called Bruce Williams is broadcast by them. The guy runs a call-in show where most people ask him about business matters. When folks call him about contracts, he demystifies them, and is pretty straightforward about how you negotiate one. It wouldn't hurt to also pick up some of the legal self-help books by Nolo Press to familiarize yourself with what business people do. The attorneys' bars in most states despise folks like Nolo Press, and that tells me to run, don't walk to Nolo for the information they sell.
If DSC was stupid enough to offer US $2,000,000 sight unseen for ANYTHING, and was willing to go to court over this, they are so stupid this problem will correct itself.
Hopefully I'll be able to get a job with them before they go out of business. I sure hope that $2,000,000 check will be good. :)