Slashdot Mirror
Caldera wins a round in MS suit
Manuka writes to us with "new information on the Caldera-Microsoft trial. U.S. District Judge Dee Benson ruled against Microsoft on four motions to narrow the scope of the Caldera suit. " This ruling ends motions vis a vis anti-trust, however, there are at least five other motions yet to be considered. This has been one of the first signs of activity since the six month reprieve on the trial.
Linux didn't have anything to do with Caldera's lawsuit against MS, it's about DOS usage rights.
>It's not a business objective, it's part of Ray Noordas personal vendetta against Microsoft.
So what's wrong with personal vendettas? Personal vendettas can be fun. See Star Trek:The Wrath of Kahn for an example. (God, I loved this movie, especially since I always was a Kahn fan. Hearing Kirk screaming Kahn's name was something truely beautiful) Too damn bad the newer Treks never had someone who was in Kahn's class to contend with....
Yeah, Caldera brought the rights to DR-DOS just to pursue this suit. Pretty slimey in my opinion. I hope they lose badly, the claims are pretty ridiculous.
I would seriously like an explanation on how making a product incompatible with a competing product is a monopolistic practice. Or is it only OK for the smaller company to do to the larger company.
Yes, it is ok for only the smaller (non-monopolist) to do so. There really aren't any "monopolistic practices." There are business practices which are perfectly legal in a competitive marketplace, but become illegal for one company to do when it has gained a monopoly.
Having a monoploy is not illegal, or even necessarily bad (depending on the industry/environment). When one achieves a monopoly, the law implies that you have undertaken a public trust to some extent, and thus must conduct yourself in a more "polite" way.
It is when one uses a monopoly to obtain advantage in other areas that you run afoul of the law. Examples:
- locking out ceratin gas stations when you are the only viable oil company
- bundling non-related software with your monopoly product
- penalizing licensees of your monopoly product who choose to include products that you don't approve of
- in the instant case, making changes to code that has no other purpose than to make competitor's products incompatible - (this being similar to an illegal tax shelter-doing things in order to reduce taxes that have no other legitimate purpose, or that any normal business person would not do)
In these cases, you have abused your position as "trustee", which role implies a sort of fiduciary duty to manage this "monopolistic trust" in a manner than accords with its position as a semi-public good.
Most of the practices that Microsoft is defending now would be perfectly legal for another company to do. That is why some people have a hard time accepting that some of what Microsoft is accused of doing is wrong. It seems to go against the U.S.'s "free-for-all" system.
But if they would realize that they are only half-correct, and that in addition Microsoft is limited by anti-trust law that doesn't apply to other companies, then they might see the situation for what it really is.
You should have to get your kernel, your shell, your network stack, your filesystem (doesn't really belong in the kernel), your ls, your grep, ad. inifinitum all from separate sources. If any of these are grouped together, it's unfair to competitors. Boo-hoo.
But then again, there are other communities who read slashdot as well.
--
Actually, I don't belong to the Iowa Bar, but to California & Nevada.
:)
The DA certainly doesn't ignore the complaints (in the two or three instances I've seen), but what I'm getting at is that all the bar can do is call the DA, just the same as any citizen (though they'll probably be lent an ear much faster
The bar can't directly discipline a non-lawyer, since they only have jurisdiction over lawyers. It's handled as a criminal offense. In states where the bar is more tightly integrated with the state Supreme Court (from which it gets its power), I presume direct action along lines of contempt of court is (or could be) possible.
hawk, esq., the recovering lawyer (haven't sued anyone in more than five years [applause])
Nothing is wrong with personal vendettas.
I think some of the people who've spent hours/days/weeks of anguish getting LILO removed from their hard drives should hold a grudge against Linus. I'm not saying they should stalk him or anything...
A lot of computers still use it (just like a lot of computers are running on intel 8088 chips (intel still makes themyou know)
embedded devices love DR-dos (it's small, fast when run from ram, and is compatable and easy to extend
------- Oh damn.... the Sigfile escaped... -Great OM
Heee - bias, *anybody* can repeat the results - I just installed a less espensive product with a great Netware client utility suite and everything written for dos/win3 ran better than expected. So just tell me bud, and I'll try to verify it in my lab - what does DR-DOS fail to do that MS-DOS was such a whiz at that gave MS 100% market share, other than pure marketing bs, fud and a few intentionally planted innoculous bugs, hmmmmm? We anxiously await any factual and verifiable answer.
Chuck
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I have to disagree with the way the trials are being conducted. I have to disagree with anti-trust laws in general. I think they hurt the market in the long run, after all we would be nowhere near where we are without MS. I do think that a departure from MS is in order but the way the gov't is doing this offends my basic sense of right and wrong. It is not right for one company to be allowed to do something that another company can't do under the law. I stated in my original post and I state again, I want to see Linux beat MS, but not this way. I feel for a true victory to be achieved Linux must win on it's own merits rather than through gov't intervention. We are already getting market share, why not include the things, like Caldera is trying to do, that the public wants and take the market share fair and square. There is no such thing as a level playing anywhere else in life and there shouldn't be one in business. I do not mean to offend anyone but for intelligent people a lot of us are starting to look like the Branch Davidians of the computer world. The MS witch hunt could easily be used for bad publicity. The way they spread FUD and the way the public believes it could really hurt the way the public perceives Linux and it's advocates. We preach an awful lot against MS but do not expect the OS we use to live up to the same standards we would hold MS to.
Too bad Kanly is illegal in this country. It would save a lot of court costs. Sigh...
(This post is smiley-captioned for the humor impaired).
--The basis of all love is respect
Regardless of one's opinion on this particular case, I think biased Judges (or any type of bias in the legal system) is a bad thing.
DOS bootstraps Wind9x, and hangs around for DOS apps/shell. that's about it. But one must make a distinction between DOS, the set of assembly language interrupt routines, msdos.sys/io.sys/command.com, and what we commonly think of as DOS, the whole package...
Read "Undocumented Windows 95" for the details on how it all works. It's actually not an unreasonable way to do it, especially if one's goals are backwards compatibility... It's too bad though that instead of being told what it was/is exactly and truthfully, the Marketing department had to hook it up to the BS port, and try to make it more than what it was, and a lot of what it isn't, because it had to appear to be more high-tech and "modern" than it really was.
--
Not quite. Novell purchased DR-DOS from Digital Research. It didn't want to pursue MS, least they upset the behemoth. Novell also asked that Caldera NOT pursue litigation.
Of all the anti-trust suits outstanding against Microsoft right now (DOJ, Bristol, Caldera), I think Caldera's has the most merit.
There is overwhelming evidence that MS deliberatly tried to make Win3.1 (at least the beta) unneccessarily incompatible with DRDOS. This 1993 Dr. Dobbs article shows the code that does it and points out how it was deliberatly obfuscated, too.
If you want me to argue both sides, you'll have to pay me twice :)
As I understand it, the regulatory agency, which usually is the State Bar, is the one that brings complaints about practice without a license. I'm not aware that these complaints are ever ignored in Wisconsin. Given Iowa's reputation, I'm surprised that it would be a problem there.
If the Bar in Iowa does not have that power, it was probably because the state legislature isn't run by lawyers and the legislature thought that the Hawkeye Bar was being just a bit too self-serving in deciding what unauthorized practice of law is. It can be a tough call to decide where the line is, but it can even be tougher if the call is wrong.
The only thing worse than lawyers is no lawyers.
Dave Jensen, who also doesn't use his JD.
1) Slashdot != the Linux Community
2) SOME people on here (myself included) HAVE embraced Caldera. It's much cleaner than RedHat's latest bugfix, and isn't politically tied to any project (not naming names). Not everyone lives and breathes RedHat (thank god).
3) All eyes watching at slashdot? You slashdot kiddies have one hell of an ego. See point #1.
there is a difference between BUNDELING adn tying in like Micosoft does. In Linux you can install what you want to or compile from source only what you want. In windows you get the whole package and it cost you alot more, and you cannot install what you want to you install what they want you to, and you have FEQ choices.
Only 'flamers' flame!
"You know what we mean, nudge, nudge, wink, wink."
If Novell didn't want the lawsuit pursued, they would not have sold that right to Caldera. They sold it to a man who they knew would follow up on it. Captain Ahab's interest in Moby Dick was almost casual compared with Ray Noorda's obsessions.
It seems that the legal system (not just Judge Penfold) is wholly against MS.
Not all bad.
Is Caldera planning to do anything with DR-DOS that isn't Microsoft/legal-related?
-awc
The DOJ has just nabbed the mystery between MS's marketing strategy ...
And now for something terribly off-topic ...
One BILLION dollars ??
IF Caldera wins this, they will be criticized if that money isn't invested with the Linux Community in mind.
And since slashdot readers have never collectively embraced OpenLinux (because it's so easy to install??), Caldera should expect all eyes watching at slashdot.
I'm not against this, but I'm not looking forward to the anticipated "battle in the kids' sandbox" among different dist's loyal users.
[sorry, folks .... but we DO have that public image]
"He who questions training trains himself at asking questions." - The Sphinx, Mystery Men (1999)
It's the perfect story, a big political soap-opera. Complete with higly paid professional lawyers, corporate sponsors, and million dollar prizes.
Maybe in the future the whole North American economy will be based on lawsuits and stories about lawsuits -- Ocassionally interrupted by some poor fellow fleeing the tyranical society which opresses his free thought, a la Guy Montag.
Check out Caldera Thin Clients to see what they're doing with it.
Making it into a thin-client/embedded OS, which seems a bit odd to me, but looks workable.
Furthermore, it's free for use with DOSEMU. Very cool.
--
Didn't Caldera buy DR-DOS after most, if not all, of the damage had been done? If so, then how can they sue for lost earnings? If it was obvious that DR-DOS had been closed out of the OS market when they bought it, then logically they should have been able to buy it comparatively cheaply, but then they should be unable to pursue Microsoft in the courts.
Caldera "OpenLinux" has always included proprietary software as the basis for its operation. It's the least "open" distribution available, and it always seems outdated.
It seems there only defense agains any threat these days is tying it into the operating system.
gee if they have stomped out all there competition where will they get there ideas from?
Only 'flamers' flame!
>Complete with higly paid professional lawyers ...
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Would you want amateur lawyers?
I once encountered a "self proclaimed lawyer." Actually, I encountered her victims, and my time cleaning up the mess was primarily pro bono. The real ugly thing about these is that the bar associations are powerless to stop them, as they have no jurisdiction over non-lawyers--all they can do is pass information to the district attorney.
ANd while there are rare exceptions, Lincoln was right about those who represent themeselves having fools for clients . . .
While this ruling is definitely a good thing, we still have a long wait before this gets resolved.
Having read Caldera's statement of facts (I've misplaced the URL), I would say they have a good chance of winning, but even if they do, what will the ultimate outcome be? Or, for that matter, how effective will it be. After all, a lot can happen in a year (and I suspect it will be at least that long before anything comes of this.)
I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
If it works in theory, try something else in practice.
No, it's not just a lawsuit for the sake of lawsuits or court TV entertainment tonight - it goes to the very heart of dasterdly uncompetitive practices, intentionally introducing 'bugs' that somehow pop up when using a Microsoft product with a product from a competitor; M$ is a jealous deity and tolerates no rivals! It's just blantly illegal, like kicking the legs of a competitor in a foot race because you don't think anyone is looking. It's just bad, bad, BAD!!
In the early 90's, after finally giving in and getting a PeeC, I tried out DR-Dos and was quite impressed (except for the emm386 crashing) and pleased that an alternative existed, w/ an excellent set of Novell client utilities. Of course M$ dare not compete on QUALITY of software!
Chuck
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
If you've manually loaded win this way, when you're at the "it is now safe to turn off your computer" screen, type: MODE C080 hit "enter"
and you'll be back at the DOS 7.0 prompt.
DOS is anything but defunct, you still can't run Windows without it, and you can still run DOS with none of Win loaded, or run DOS apps within Windows (just like the old DOS 6.0/Win 3.1). Windows 9x just isn't as integrated as MS wants everyone to believe. They replaced "Starting MSDOS..." with a fluffy cloud, flying window logo screen, but did it really fool anyone?
They bought all of Digital Research, the whole damn company, from Novell, all of the software, employees, assets, and claims against Microsoft, ect, of Novell. DRI was never really integrated into Novell... so it wasn't that hard to do. DR-DOS is the product from that deal that Caldera is actually trying to sell. They own the rights to CP/M, GEM/ViewMax (released as GPL), DR-DOS, ect, ect, ect. BTW, they are also including the fact that MS-DOS is a knockoff of their CP/M that included CP/M sourcecode. (another reason they bought DRI)
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
It will be interesting to see if he cares two wits about Linux or Open Sores once he's had his revenge on Microsoft. (if he has his revenge on Microsoft).
Linux is an example of free and open software. Our loyalties should lie with that which ensures a future where ideas can be exchanged, improved upon, and freely innovated without the fear of being absorbed or litigated to death by greedy corporations. To me, that means GPL'd software. I'm not against corporations making money - far from it! What I'm against is, one corporation controlling the platform. As for distributions, they are just a means to an end; the means of installing the OS; after that, they should be passed on to the next user.
Anyway, Microsoft's marketing strategy is to screw everybody - and everybody's seems to be getting pretty tired of it!
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Keep in mind that Caldera split into two separate companies. The DR-DOS company ("Caldera Thin Clients") is different from the Linux division ("Caldera Systems"). They may never see any of it, or... maybe they will.
with them having that EULA in openlinux 2.2 which keeps you from making copies of the cd, or installing it on more than one computer... oh, you can make copies of the "non-system" software, but then you will have to seperate the files, put it on a ext2 filesystem and then use lisa to install it. which defeats the whole point of buying openlinux 2.2 in the first place because you bought it cause it was easy to install...
Down with Caldera.
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
Caldera bought a lawsuit they can win.
Is that a good business objective? I don't think so.
But Caldera has a definite good change to hit Microsoft in the jimmy if they win this case. I'm sure we won't be posting a "Microsoft loses Caldera" article here for another 2 years, but I'll be ready and waiting to read it.
There have been rumors for some time now floating around Slashdot suggesting that the Evil Empire may decide to sell "MS Linux."
Wouldn't it be convienent for MS to purchase a company that has a product that has a nice GUI install already, integrates with Novell and NT, is already proprietary, and will compete directly with companies such as Red-Hat (with "MS" support of course). Best of all it will make the lawsuit go away.
The only flaw with this theory is that I can't see MS buying a product that will directly compete with their "vision", that can also be freely distributed (of course w/o the proprietary code). Then again, this proprietary code may be something worth building on to make it part of "the Empire" and therefore a reason that people would be willing to spend $200 ish for it plus licenses. Besides, many IT people won't touch Linux with a forty foot pole because it isn't sanctioned by MS (and because they're braindead). They would be willing to shell out the bucks if it was sanctioned by The Empire. MS has done this sort of thing before in the database market (ex: FoxPro vs. Access).
Just a thought.
Yes.
When Microsoft commited their offenses, they accrued a billion+ dollar liability. After all, when you commit a crime that hurts another party, you owe restitution to the victims (DR-DOS suit) in addition to the usual criminal sentence (DoJ suit). It's sorta like the OJ Simpson trials. :-)
The way I see it, Caldera is acting like a collection agency, going after the deadbeat Microsoft. When the offenses were committed, Microsoft's liability was also Digital Research's (and then Novell's) asset. But DR/Novell were just software companies, though, and didn't have the means (or will, or enough good lawyers, or whatever) to collect the money. So they did the equivalent of "turning the account over to collections" and sold the claim (in the form of DR-DOS) to Caldera. (The sale price was probably quite a bit less than the amount Microsoft owes, since it's a gamble whether or not they'll be able to collect it.)
Now Caldera is trying to actually get the money that Microsoft owes.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Like when you go to the Exxon station, and pay at the pump, that's often DR-DOS in there.
But Win98 is a dead-end. Win2000 is a new version of WinNT which is not DOS-based. So, yes, it's defunct.
Right. Don't forget that Microsoft orginally intended to replace DOS/Windows 3.1 with Windows NT. This failed largely due to backwards-compatibilty problems.
Windows 95/98 are just big piles of design comprimises designed to give the customer what they want (with some DirectX stuff added to kill the DOS game market). On the other hand, I have seem some really f*ing old DOS drivers loading successfully under 9x.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
notice an AC post ah well not a thing to say about windows
windows has lots of postitives but you fail to point them out I dont like it but I can see why people do !
oh well
never left your mom
still live their do you
hang out down the MALL
oh well life would be nice if you dont have a clue but people have shown you and you close your mind !
TIT
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
although people are bound to abuse them they are needed
dont let somebody abuse a community service
because the threat of remebering passwords just means that people who have something good to say dont say it
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
I almost find it amusing that they say MS-DOS is now defunct. Which any decient Windows user will know it's not. Or even a COMMplete user. For all the DOS we still see while booting Windows (Or failing to do so), I would think people would realize it's still "MSDOS-Inside" ..With a fat piggie of a GUI sitting on top.
If Caldera did buy DR-DOS just to sue, it is beyond me why they are so intent on improving the product.
They may not be adding a tremendous number of bells and whistles, but implementation of their tcp/ip stack and browser took a bit of work.
I do think that the suit against MS added to the value of the DR-DOS intellectual property, but I doubt it was the only reason Caldera bought DR from Novel.
What is a shame is that they sold off Concurrent DOS. That could have been fun....
...about Office
Office2000+Windows2000=$2000 X 100,000,000 pcs.
+&x