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Lotus Offers a Peek Into Linux plans
Sm@rt Resseler has published an article about what Lotus
will port to Linux in the near future. Among their products are Domino 5.0.3 with connectivity to Oracle 8.0x and IBM's DB2, Sametime 2.0 (Realtime collaboration software), and Quick Place 2.0 Collaborative Program (scheduled for the first
half of 2000). Unfortunately, Lotus is not planning to port either their Notes client or SmartSuite Millenium edition to Linux, which is a sad thing. (/me thinks that a petition could help us to get those client ports.)
Think about it - Notes is primarily server software. The only thing the client does is display your information for you, and perform archives if you so desire. Everything else is a basic web browser function. I haven't seen it in Notes yet, but Exchange has an option to use a web browser as a client. It's ugly and slow (hey, it's Microsoft!), but it isn't any worse than a comparable Notes client for Unix. If Notes R5 can do this, it makes the whole idea of a groupware client obsolete, even for Windows users.
I Thought that lotus is a part of big blue? The
Only evidence I have to support this is the fact
that my monthly IBM newsletter comes with a
rather large section on lotus. Maybe this is all
part of IBM's plans for linux?
Joe
It is very fast has a clean look and has all the needed email functions
From this statement alone I know that you're not talking about the Notes Client. They may have written a very nice email client, but that is not anywhere near a full Notes Client.
The original poster said that Lotus had a java implementation of the Notes Client. This is total bunk. Domino developers can achieve many of the same effects in a web page by using the built-in Java classes for Domino. This helps applications that were written for the Notes Client to be more useful to web-only users, but it is not the same as a Notes Client.
It may be better than having a bloated Notes Client, it may be worse, but there is no "magic bullet" Java implementation of the Notes Client which can run on all Unixes.
Anyways yeah building a superior groupware collaboration system from the ground up would be nice but CIOs and others don't see it that way. It would cost their companies alot of money in terms of platform migration, maintainence, training, and any downtime that results from this move. Plus now all their obsolete systems would simply be a waste of money rather than productive investments.
Uh oh it must be those MIS classes getting to me...
I hate bloatware as much as the next person but people must wake up to reality!
Today's English Lesson: Oxymorons
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
Yeah.....hopefully sooner than later.
I'm writing this right now from a Windows 98 machine at work. I was running Linux, but ran into one problem...a network diagramming tool, either commercial or free. Dia looks promising, but not many objects have been implemented yet (unable to use it for a physical network layout).
So anyways, I'm about to install Visio. Sigh.
Notes is so bad that I won't work for another company that uses it. Its up there with flex time, no dress code, etc. on the prereq list.
It really is a piece of turd.
This is fairly odd. I was under the impression that there would be a native version of the notes client that would run under linux. Around here at my work, we have some ibm/hp reps, and while perhaps they arn't really in the know more than anyone else, they were saying that it was pretty likely we would see one come out in next year or so. I believe one of them mentioned 5.0, though I don't remember precisely. Anyway, I suppose time will tell...
There is a very good reason why Lotus have only committed to releasing the Domino Server on Linux.
That is because the Clients are still unstable on platforms Iris are familiar with. (An understatement if I have ever heard one)
As someone who has evaluated Domino R5 from the test builds (Well before the betas came out) I can honestly say the clients have all been very dodgy.
The server however has had a LOT of time dedicated to it to ensure it is reliable. As the server is supposed to be virtually an ISP in a box it can be run in organisations without end users ever seeing a Notes Client.
I am sure that as the R5 client matures Lotus will supply it for Linux. Add to that the fact that IBM will supply Netfinity servers with Linux installed and are fully supporting the Linux/Open source initiative. Lotus will have no option but to follow suit.
If you did, you would realize the prerequisite of notes being installed on the unix domino server.
:)
As it does on AIX, and solaris.....
jafour1@us.ibm.com
Lotus Notes is groupware and very popular in corporate america. Like my company (a very large fortune 500 that will remain unamed). A few of my coworkers use linux as a desktop machine and go through this huge convoluted work-around to run Notes (something along the line of using wabi to run the 16 bit version of Notes) which makes notes even more sluggish than it mormally is.
I love linux and I would love to use it as a desktop, but until i can use my corporate mandated groupware package (notes) i will not do the switch.
maybe you can take this as an example of why it would be desirable for the the linux community to have a port of Lotus Notes.
Hardly... the Designer and Administrator client are CLOSELY tied to the main notes client. They ARE separate programs... but it seems to start them as separate threads off the main client.
The reason I say this is that, in the Administrator, when you register users, you CANNOT use the Designer or Notes client. The three are integrally linked, and if one is busy, they all are.
-Sir Woody Hackswell, the Arch-Fool
Do you use Domino? I don't think so. If you did you would know that although you can design everything within Notes (which oddly enough some Notes developers hate:) you can also design web pages from other software and use them.
I'd like to know if they are running a domino server, just because the page says so doesn't mean it's not Domino.
Every time someone criticizes Notes, the kneejerk response is to say "well, you just don't know anything about Notes". However, it's not true in my case. I know full well that you can use NetObjects or FrontPage in conjuction with Notes/Domino. But this site is not done that way. Here's the HTTP response header: Server: Apache/1.3.6 (Unix). Oops. Oh, but check for yourself to be sure. (You do know how to do that, right?) And without even checking that, it's clear that they were not using it to serve .NSF databases, right? Pretty obvious, right?
Yes Notes is a HTML creation tool, but it isn't only that. Yes it's an email package, but it isn't only that as well.
Sure, but by your own evidence (above) it's not a good HTML creation tool. The pitch is that Notes/Domino is everything; but what if it does little of it well.
Oh and setting up Replication is so simple it's laughable.
Replication is easy; English grammar is complicated -- that should have read ... arguing that replication and workflow (which works only after a big investment ... OK? Read better now?
By the way, where are all the terrific Domino sites out there on the Internet. You can spot those URLs a mile away, but I never seem to run into them often. Why's that?
Dear:
A release of SmartSuite for Linux is currently in development. Unfortunately, Lotus Customer Service does not have details about its release date at this time. Please check the SmartSuite home page (http://www.lotus.com Choose "Products" and "SmartSuite" from the left navigator) as the information will be posted there as soon as it's available. If you have further questions, or need additional information, please visit the North American Customer Service Web site at: http://www.lotus.com/customer .nsf/framedocs/uscanhome
Regards,
Lotus Customer Service
The lack of a notes client is kind of a bummer, especially in some corporate settings. Not impossible to overcome though and at the rate things are going, you're better off with standards, Notes doesn't really do much that you can't do otherways (with a bit more work..)
Smartsuite would be nice, I really do like it but there are better alternatives, StarOffice, Applixware, KOffice, and the GNOME work bench (or whatever it was called) are all quickly becoming very powerful. The integrated productivity arena was one I was skeptical about for OSS for a long time but KOffice is looking sharp. For most users, StarOffice will do everything they need plus tons more. You end up being a little "non-standard" with all your windows friends and coworkers but I'm positive that most people can get their work done with it. If Lotus and MS don't want part of that market then that's their loss.
only when there's MS Office on linux I'm afraid. It's not that there's anything wrong with WP-it's very good technology. But it's because of that pesky doc format and the training costs to switch everyone to a new platform
---
I've done some work on Dia (it's a REALLY cool program). Actually I think the coolest thing is it loads in like 1 second on my 166 Pentium compared to about 10 seconds for Visio to come up.
Anyway, what's missing? network cloud is one, but what else? If you can explain what you need or draw it, it's a fairly simple matter to implement new objects in Dia. I created a whole class of Sybase objects for the diagrams I have to do at work, it was fairly simple.
So anyway, write 'em up send them to me and I will make them for you.
I do not know what all of this Diminoes Stuff is. I really don't understand what this article is talking about. A little help please?
"To know what you know and know it, and to know what you don't know and know that. That is wisdom."
You really have no clue as to what Notes/Domino is all about, do you? I'd like to see the list of the free packages that do 'everything that Bloated Goats does and they do it better.' If you can find ONE that does everything that Domino does, I'd be shocked. While I find it disheartening that there is no Notes client in the works, it's not surprising since there's no large user base in enterprise settings to target for sales.
It's not just about mail. Maybe no one told you that.
beamin (lost my password!)
I was excited when it came on my new laptop, because I would get the opportunity to try a Windows word processor other than Word.
What a surprise. WordPro was the worst experience with a word processor I've had in a long time. Even getting the darned thing to select only the text I wanted was a chore. I was so disgusted after composing a nine page article that I uninstalled the whole thing.
Don't look for Lotus to bring good apps to Linux. For commercial efforts, stick with WordPerfect. For open source, KOffice looks very promising.
Yea, I've noticed many large corporations are doing this same thing: releasing server stuff for Linux, (and getting the resulting media attention) but quietly omiting announcements about client app support. IBM is doing the same thing with it's DB2 stuff, you can get the server for free but all of their enterprise configuration tools are (and are going to stay) windows? It's not just that they don't think that there is interest in using Linux as a client/workstation, there has to be some internal motavation...
Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming. -Brian Kernigan
I've got Lotus Notes at work... the client is buggy, ugly and above all bloated... it even makes M$ products look good... I've never seen a program hog so many resources just to idle in the background.
If you like Lotus Notes you probably like the concept of it - everything in one - email, calander, database, newsgroup, file/version manager, it's even got it's own browser (which sucks incendently)... but when you really get down to it, it doesn't work well...
so don't bother trying to figure out how to write a client for it, just write a consistant looking front-end interface for all your favorite apps and then get them to all load up at once every time you want to use just one of them and you've got it.
It sounds like Lotus is doing the same thing as all the large commercial interests. Comitting to Linux as a server operating system.
This doesn't bode well for the Linux-only vendors if they're hoping to ramp up to 'workstation' volumes.
Not to underestimate the OS community, but I don't think a "free" client is likely to happen any time soon. The Notes client is a whole bunch more complex than a browser, and you can see how long it's taking Mozilla to make one of those... ;-)
Lotus has been battling MS for years now. They've finally dummied up and are supporting a viable alternative to NT. Of
course, one hopes Iris Development ( who really make Domino/Notes ) won't just ship just another buggy port.
A peek perhaps? I mean if you're going to plagarize a headline almost verbatim, you could at least spell it right to. I tried to look for the headline-style pun, but could only draw conclusions about sloppy editing.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I'm suprised that they do not want to port the client, given that they have an AIX version of the client (or at least they did - maybe they don't have an R5 version).
But I will say this: the AIX version was fairly bletcherous.
The Norton Anthology of English Literature, 4th Ed., Vol 2
I'm pessimistic on the idea that Lotus will port the Notes Client or Smartsuite to Linux; especially since they dumped client support for Unixen in Domino R5... And the idea that a petiton might change there minds is (sadly) unlikely - Lotus isn't really good at listening to that kind of input from users...
Or even from their business partners, like the one I work for; Lotus has a partner forum, which is available to Lotus Certified Business Partner companies. Various requests have been made at times for improvements in certain Notes features (like printing, or report generation); many of the these request meet very little response or support from Lotus.
As far as the server Linux port goes, and speaking from several years of familiarity with Notes/Domino, I'm not really that interested. Lotus' track record for Unix versions hasn't been great; the AIX and Solaris version have been buggy, slow, or they require a _very_ specific set of OS patches/configuration to run efficiently... By analogy, that would mean that the Linux version may run on the 2.2.7 kernel (for example), but not, say, 2.2.9 . (And don't dare try putting it on a development kernal)
The Microsoft client monopoly is the problem. If companies only release Windows client programs, what is the use.
Mark
Sure they want to a server only.. its easier than a GUI client. Which would have to dazzel as much as thier other clients. As we have seen before the server will only be out a few days before some project to write a gnome client will be underway.. then the KDE client.. not to be outdone. Once they see that we will do it our selfs they will beforced to write there own client.. Could you see lotus allowing some GPL'd client outpreforming there clients they charge so much for?. The petitions are all nice and good.. but when we show them that if they dont port the client we will reverse one then get on board and get us a client.. the only way to get the suits to recognize it to scare them.. free clients do that.
Posted by 2B||!2B:
It probably doesn't make any business sense for them to sell a Linux version. As far as I know, there's a Java version of Notes client which will handle any version of Linux/Unix/etc., anyway.
Doing a special version of Notes for each would be unlikely to ever be profitable (there would be a GNU equivalent within a month, anyway). You would have to sell a whole lot of copies to justify a special version, which won't ever happen with any of these specialty OS's. The Windows-tweaked version is probably more for psychological reasons than practical reasons; nobody gets excited about a Java version, but a Windows-specific version is easy to justify to management. Who knows... the Java version might be nearly as good as a Linux version, anyway. It's just a matter of a decent Java runtime engine. I've used Java code before that was literally _faster_ than the previous C(++) version once it was run through a proper compiler.
Its sad to see people actulay wanting ports of otherwise worthless Apps over to a good OS.
Brainpower should win out over bloatpower. Lotus office products are by and far the dog doodoo on the bottom of the office apps shoes. Notes is the Mekong Delta (VietName era) of groupware.
Rather we should petition GOOD CODE BUILDERS to make office apps that are more in working with a good OS, not settle for the same old some old
(I can say this with some sure mindedness because I use thee products on a dialy basis, as well as other "office apps". It would be sad to see *nix simply port this stuff over like lap dogs in a commercial sense)
Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
Personally, I wish they'd port the client too, so I could get rid of my Windows partition.
--
Change is inevitable.
Progress is not.
www.notesdesign.com
--
Change is inevitable.
Progress is not.
It's interesting that you point to a site that is about Notes and even they shun Domino. From the site, you can see what they chose:
meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 2.0"
Okay, sure. Notes client/server ain't Domino. And it ain't "just" email as someone always points out.
But what's you're point? Are you arguing that replication and workflow (which work only after a big investment in consultant time and end-user training) is a lasting competitive advantage. Are you arguing that customers are better off by locking in to a particular 'solution'?
When 95% of all user interaction centers around email and discussion?
I have yet to meet an end-user who wants to engage me in conversation about "Say, can use LEI to snarf that data and fire it out to a CORBA-based Java applet that will automatically book a meeting room through our group calendar"?
You can sell that kind of buzzword crap to managers for a while, but if the end-users ain't buying it, what's you're long-term story look like. (And by the way, the most common question I hear is "Why is it so fucking slow -- I just want to read my email?").
But, of course, I'm just clueless. And you?
Good luck doing that, you have absolutely no idea how sophisticated the Notes client and server are. Take the largest code base you've ever seen and multiply 10x. Now remember than most of the important stuff is internal, and undocumented. This makes reverse-engineering Win32 look like a a cakewalk.
I was going to comment on the flaws in Lotus/Domino/Notes' strategy and implementation.
But then I realized that you'd already captured it nicely. (The above argument was advanced in the 1970's by IBM with respect to minicomputers, and repeated in the 1980's by IBM (and DEC, Data General, Wang, etc.) with respect to the PC).
p.s. (1) I just spent the past eight hours working with Domino/Notes. (2) Yes, it does some things very well. (3) Lotus Notes is not going to disappear overnight. (4) That doesn't mean it isn't doomed.
Yep, the UI is unusual, but there are some really good features to it (and I quite like the right-double-click (and that is a settable option) .
What bothers me is that they just have not fixed the basic elements -- for example, the thumb on the vertical scrollbar -- that was broken regardless of any "standard" and it still gives very poor feedback.
Posted by Jeff Martin:
It is strange that they will not be making the Smartsuite for Linux.
Perhaps if we all ask nicely they might reconsider this stance.
Serving the Web with Domino isn't trivial, and there are lots of clods out there that settled on GruntPage before learning how to pull it off.
If 95% of your interaction involves mailing text around (sounds like never-ending meeting hell to me), you don't need groupware - you need a real job.
Replication is easy unless your admin is dense enough to set access control lists that forbid servers from do their jobs.
Workflow is all about planning "now whose problem is this document?" - unless that decision is horribly complicated, you don't need a consultant to make it work, you just don't want end users to have to make guesses as they go.
If users aren't asking you about scheduling meetings over the Web, it's probably because they think the price tag for arranging that is infeasible. Domino can give you an up-to-date list of what times everyone in the address book is busy, and you can auto-ACK or NAK invitations with one button. Anyone who *prefers* doing that with a flurry of text/plain mail has gotta be nuts.
until recently Linux was mainly known for its server capabilities - even most Linux supporters/users said that Linux wasn't yet ready for the desktop. Now we have KDE and GNOME and Linux is ready for the desktop, but what I fear is that the Linux community will become too demanding and scare of those companies that would have eventually ported the client. I would rather see lots of customers requesting Linux versions of client software than a petition.
\forall code \in C, \frac{\Delta readability(code)}{\Delta t} < 0
A shame they are not porting WordPro, it is the best wordprocessor I have ever used. I love the way almost everything from text formatting to style sheet usage/configuration is available in a right click menu popup box. Almost all functionality are very easy to reach with few clicks/keys. Also font, etc selections does not take up so much space as in e.g. Word.
In contrast is Microsof~1 Word where one have to go through many menu/dialog levels just to reach simple things.
Serving the Web with Domino isn't trivial, and there are lots of clods out there that settled on GruntPage before learning how to pull it off.
Right. But this is the 'dogfood' test. If the site is called 'www.notesdesign.com' then their apparent rejection of Domino is a reasonable observation.
My previous (primary) point was fundamentally like this:
As for your other statements:
I said that '95% of all user interaction centers around email and discussion' but you have distorted that statement (unless you mean that 95% of your interaction involves scheduling meetings with the calendar -- gee, *you* need a real job).
Replication is easy. Who said it wasn't? (It's a nice feature).
Workflow is indeed all about planning. It's unfortunate how many organizations don't involve their own employees in the process, and instead troop in the 'consultants'. (It's true, and you know it --- after all, Lotus/IBM is in the business of selling these kind of services. No?)
As far as using a group calendar: yep, lots of upside; however, at this point (independent of organization or infrastructure (software, etc.), in practice, it pales in comparison to the importance of email and discussion simply because group calendars don't work unless everyone gets religion. Mandatory opt-in is a tough sell.
[1] It may make sense for Notes shops, as a way to provide remote access to email/calendar for people away from the office.
Lotus has a feedback form (it's actually buried a bit in frames, so you'll have to dig a bit for it, basically, select your country at top right, hit go, click 'How do I contact customer service?' in the right column, then click 'Product Form'; I had to click Product Form a few times before I got through) Note that they don't have a Linux option for the 'What OS are you using' question.
rofl
So, does Micros~1 contact you for their 'online documentation' efforts *ahem* in their newer softwares?
Living in Boston I hear a lot of horror stories from current and ex Lotus employees about how introverted Lotus is and how the company isn't structured in a way that rewards change or new ideas. This announcement doesn't mean that they'll never port SmartSuite to Linux, but I'll bet if they ever do port it it'll be too late.
koffice ?
I use the Win95 LotusNotes client on Linux using WINE and UnixODBC at my office and everything is stable (especially with the latest build). As for the speed, I can't really tell what it would be on a fast computer, but on my Pentium 100, it runs at the same speed as when I was running the computer on Windows.
We use Notes for our internal e-mail, static information database and incidents database.
"Em".
> It's not just about mail.
That, however, is the bit that everyone sees and probably uses the most and it is not very good. It doesn't allow you to quote text properly. When you click on something to delete it, it doesn't disappear from the current window. Some of the time it shows external mail as an attachment. etc etc. The company I work for has just replaced Openmail with Notes. I never thought there could be something worse than Openmail.
P
If it's just for email, then you are seriously wasting your time.
The product is for *groupware*, and despite it's over large client it is still a 100 times better then other groupware stuff I've seen out there.
The Domino server now fully supports HTML, so I can't see them porting a client, just using the HTML client that is part of Domino.
Also I don't know about SmartSuite, but eSuite works fine on Linux, and is a lot more cooler.
It's not smartsuite but then who uses all those 100's of options.
But it's Java based office suite with some trendy extras.
Has had it since 4.6 afaik. R5 has better options allowing better HTML customisation.
If you did you would know that although you can design everything within Notes (which oddly enough some Notes developers hate:) you can also design web pages from other software and use them.
Yes Notes is a HTML creation tool, but it isn't only that. Yes it's an email package, but it isn't only that as well.
I'd like to know if they are running a domino server, just because the page says so doesn't mean it's not Domino.
Oh and setting up Replication is so simple it's laughable. I think if your going to comment on a product try using it for a good while.
> Unfortunately, Lotus is not planning to port either their ... to Linux...
> Notes client or SmartSuite
Have you ever *seen* how Lotus apps. ported to Unix run? Must not have,
or you'd hardly be calling for them to be ported again. 1-2-3, AmiPro,
Notes, all of 'em: gag. Bloated, slow, unstable, feature-poor,
non-Unix/non-X behaviour. Yech.
Lotus has proven, time-and-again, how utterly clueless they are.
Let them stay on Ms-Win* and suffer their deserved fate. That fate shared
by all who climb into bed with Microsoft or become Ms-centric.
Lotus has a java email client which should be completed by the end of the year....
But the bad news is that most people will never see it... It is for the DMS (defense messaging system) and will be used by our government(mostly military)...
I have played with it a little... It is very fast has a clean look and has all the needed email functions... But will never be released to the general public...
Posted by hrearden:
I dont know if this is feasible, as the Notes client might be needed to view one's designs. But since the Linux community is a bunch of coders, I think you might appeal to IBM this way.
The Designer is *supposedly* separated from the Notes Client in R5 (I say supposedly because they may share alot of code, I just dont know).
So stop moaning! Linux is a great stable server platform (at the very least) - we run Notes servers on NT currently, and they have to be rebooted every couple of weeks... (familiar story on /.) - Iris/Lotus have obviously noticed this and are providing a server platform for NT's nearest "competitor". This is a GOOD thing. In what way could it possibly be bad??? This is what we want isn't it? More commercial interest?
As far as client support goes... you can access most things thru a web browser, or mail via IMAP, SMTP and LDAP...
I'm sure as soon as GNU/Linux becomes the dominant desktop OS, there will be ports a plenty!
If anybody cares, the Windows version of Notes 4.6 seems to work quite well in the newest version of WINE. It seems to freeze up once in a great while when you try to do something fancy with it, but otherwise it runs perfectly.
I'm glad they're not porting their crappy bloated client software to Linux. It really is a pity Lotus hasn't died the horrible corporate death it so truly deserves. There are free packages to do everything that Bloated Goats does and they do it better. The only reason no one has pulled them together into a Notes like offering is that bloatware does not sell in the UNIX world, even if it's free.
I can only hope that Lotus realizes that Linux is the wave of the future far to late to get on the bandwagon and that they go out of business. No one will miss them; they're another relic of the 80's that's better off gone.
Yeah, companies are only looking at Linux as a server solution, for now...
Linux isn't really ready to be deployed onto the desktop of a major corporation.
In time workstations sporting Linux will become suitable alternatives...
------------------------------------------
Reveal your Source, Unleash the Power. (tm)
Lotus/Iris made the decision to drop *NIX client development as of R4.x because the *NIX client user base was minuscule. Everyone was using Sun, HP, AIX as Notes servers and Win32 as their client OS. So they target their resources where the market is.
:) works great!
I think that a petition drive would have some impact, but not nearly as much impact as a huge corporate customer (i.e. a General Motors) demanding a Linux client port.
Meanwhile, there's always Linux under WINE emulation
Good luck doing that, you have absolutely no idea how sophisticated the Notes client and server are. Take the largest code base you've ever seen and multiply 10x. Now remember than most of the important stuff is internal, and undocumented. This makes reverse-engineering Win32 look like a a cakewalk.