Virtual Models Come To Life

K. turned us on to this one: an announcement by Elite, the world's largest model agency, about a new division they've set up that supplies nothing but computer-generated models. Plastic surgeons may be in trouble if this catches on, but we all knew it was inevitable. The idea has been an SF staple since the 1930s, but this is the first time that computer-generated, animated models have been offered by a big-time modeling agency as a serious alternative to real, flesh-and-blood (and silicon) supermodels. I'd go into more detail, but you can get it all by going directly to the press release.

Comments

Lara will NEVER look real

[skajohan]

Of course, Lara doesn't look real enough yet, but that is because the technology needs to be upgraded a few notches first.

Ehm, lack of technology is not the reason Lara looks unreal.
She'll never look real until the "artists" or whatever are given some education in human anatomy.

Don't hate the media, become the media.

Women's feelings

[Kaa]

I know there are plenty of Women who bemoan the fact that they "don't look like the models do". How are they going to feel when the models are computer generated and may have anatomical configurations not even possible in real life? In the computer they can tweak everything, muscle tone, body fat, hell they can even tweak gravity if they feel like it.

Women will deal with it exactly like they deal with the rest of real life. Are you telling us that extra-beautiful is bad because it may make some people have lower self-esteem? So what? If they have a problem with that, they should go to a shrink and sort out the insides of their heads. Not to mention that too-beautiful-to-be-real women have been around for ages. Should women have fits because they don't have the eyes of Boticelli's Venus? or the smile of da Vinci's Mona Lisa? or the body of Goya's Maja? What about the Vargas girls (Playboy 1960-70s)?

To continue this line of reasoning shouldn't Arnold Schwarzenegger be prohibited from public appearances because 99.99% of male population has nothing like his physique? Shouldn't we prohibit Ferrari and Lamborgini to make cars because the same 99.99% of population cannot afford it? Should we ban the TV show "The lifestyles of rich and famous"? (actually, the answer to the last question is 'yes', but for different reasons).

Nobody is perfect. If seeing perfection gives you psychological problems, it's your problem -- fix your head.

Kaa

Re:Women's feelings

[konstant]

All this self-righteous talk about "choice" and "perfection" utterly miss the mark. Let's not forget two essential points:

1) the feminists are actually trying to protect the right of normal women to choose what they consider is beautiful. When the male and femal population are both inundated with images of a certain type of woman, and both are told millions of times without variation that this sort of woman is beautiful, women suddenly are robbed of that choice. Bizarre as it is, men begin to expect Cindy Crawford (or the latest porn star, you guys) in every woman they date. When they don't get it (surprise!) both the man and the woman are dissatisfied and ultimately the world is a shittier place to live in.

2)"Perfection" is relative. These days, the "choice" hounds on this board don't get a say in what perfection means. I don't get a say, you don't get a say. Who does? The "women's" mags, TV, and movies. They have the money, so naturally they want to protect it. How better to protect their perfectly sculpted asse(t)s than to ensure there is always a very small number of "perfect" women in the world? I should think that on /. of all places, there should be no need to explain the workings of monopoly.

-konstant

Re:CG vs. CGI

[Stephen Williams]

For what it's worth, I met "CGI" as a abbreviation for "Computer Graphic Images" (or something like that) years before I met it as an abbreviation for "C(omputer?) Gateway Interface". I think the first time I saw the term "CGI" was referring to the visual effects in Babylon 5.

GPL

[euroderf]

We want source files.

Hackety-hack ...

Re:The media *is* blamed for people's self esteems

[Kaa]

Like it or not, quite a large portion of society feels this way. I know many feminists who rant on and on about how they despise models because they set "an impossible standard" against which all women unconsciously compare themselves. The feminists are certainly not the only ones who feel this is true, either.

So? There is a very old joke about an Englishman and a Frenchman watching a guy go by them in a Rolls-Royce. The Englishman says: "I dream of the day when I also would be able to drive around in a Rolls-Royce like that man". The Frenchman says: "I dream of the day when I will be able to get that man out of his Rolls-Royce and force him to walk on the sidewalk like I'm doing!".

Feminists ranting about models implicitly take a position that "if I cannot be as beautiful as that model, then that model has no right to be beautiful at all, or at the very least she should hide her beauty and not annoy me by reminding me of my imperfections". I agree that a lot of people feel that way (though most of them probably do not express it that explicitly), but that does not make them right, or make their position defensible.

Certainly quite a number of American women are obsessed with weight. I know a number of fairly intelligent women who work desperately to acquire or maintain a medically unhealthy weight. They feel they are "too fat", no matter what medical science tells them.

Certainly quite a number of American men are obsessed with money. I know a number of fairly intelligent men who work desperately to acquire an unreasonable amount of money. They feel they are "not rich enough", no matter that they are sacrificing their life in the process.

So?

Kaa

Re:CGI Arnie...

[Mr. Slippery]

This is becoming a problem for some men. There are fellows out there with serious body image problems, who obsessively work out because they never feel pumped enough.

BTW, take a look at the bulked up action-figures that boys play with today, and compare them to the normal human forms of the G.I. Joe or Six Million Dollar Man of twenty years ago. Not a healthy trend.

You're all missing the point!

[AnarchySoftware]

I mean really, where can I get one of those skimpy black dresses to try on?
I can just image going out on a hot and heavy date wearing only software. That would be an eye turner!

Problem?

[Kaa]

We _know_ that some girls are starving themselves, period... This IS A PROBLEM.

Sure, some guys probably work so hard that it's definately not healthy for them... this is also A PROBLEM.

First, no, this is not a PROBLEM. This is a [small font] problem [/small font]. PROBLEMs are things like post-AIDS demographic situation in Africa and handling of nuclear weapons in Russia.

Second, aren't you telling people what their value system should be? Let's assume that for me being thin is more important than eating a lot. I made a choice and decided on the trade-offs. Yes, I will not pig out at all-you-can-eat buffets, but my body will not look like a mound of jello. That choice is for me to decide. Sure it may be medically unhealthy, but so is living in a large city, eating cookies, not exercising each day, etc. etc. Your point that I should not want to be this thin, but who are you to tell me what I should want and what I should not want?

People make choices and take the consequences. They have a right to make the choices they want even if other people think them silly, medically unsound or politically incorrect.

Kaa

Finally ...

[timur]

... all you Linux users can now get a date!
Timur Tabi
Remove "nospam_" from email address

Idyllic Idoru

[z1lch]

Prevalent as a theme in science fiction of old through to cyberpunk of the modern day we have been tempted and teased by the virtual world and the fabricated beings who dwell within them. Now especially realtime we flirt within the boundaries of the mediums.

William Gibson captured this beautifully in his sequel-like novel Idoru which shared similar characters as Virtual Light which preceded it. Set in typical Gibson-esque post apocolyptic Tokyo, Idoru focuses on many convuluted complex characters and sub-plots. The central theme however is the cultural shock exhibited through the love/obsession of Rez [pop star] with a software construct [the idoru] who manifests herself as a hologram and on the Net... there are even wedding bells...

How many teen angsty boys fell for Lara as she fell and grunted sexily after the first few addictive moments of manipulating her with mastubatory strokes with the hot Playstation control firmly clasped in hand? I'm figuring a shitload...that breast enlargement "mistake" really paid off for Eidos.

Elite is a natural progression of what we've been spoon-fed for years as technology improved and our visual expectations become more impossible to meet in the physical realm. We're at the threshold of making our science fiction fantasies true. A little fantasy never hurt anyone..

Fashion photographers discovered Photoshop a long time ago and the airbrush has been used to make already impossible looking creatures something even more difficult to aspire towards for prebubescent females.

Yes this does create social illnesses such as anorexia blah de blah, feelings of inadequacy for many women as they try to emulate what they obviously cannot. The fault is not with women. We're not stupid. I'm thinking George Orwell here...some are more equal than others. It's the fucked up attitude of society and the confusion which reigns in the seperations of reality. There's no clarification... too many lost sheep out there [virtually speaking]. We're typically all ants being projected images which will maintain our consumer bent path. Fantasy sells -- some just have a little difficulty disengaging. It is unnecessary to make further social comment on this development.

I say a little appreciation of virtual babes [someone mentioned Vargas before and what about the fantasy pinup work of Hajime Sorayama?] on their own merits is in order -- nothing more nothing less. In the words of The Jam: That's Entertainment.

Ultimately I know that there's no way in hell that pair of Levis is going to look the same on my beanpole legs as they do on those 3D cyber goddesses [sheeeet... I'll have to turn on the filters first].

Thanks guys, but it's a bit more complex.

[fable2112]

The pressure doesn't come from most men. It comes from other women.

I'm 5'10" and last time I was at the doctor's office, I weighed 187 pounds. This makes me 15-30 pounds overweight depending on who you ask (though the doctor said not to worry about it because other than that and my ever-present hypoglycemia, I am in very good health).

When I was a 13-year-old wannabe model, I was 5'6" or so, weighed in at 115 pounds, and thought THAT was fat. It's a damn good thing I'm hypoglycemic -- the headaches and dizzy spells I would get if I skipped meals stopped me from becoming anorexic. No joke.

I was also not-particularly-attractive-to-boys. After I went to college and gained weight, I had NO trouble attracting the opposite sex, or interested parties of the same sex. (Started college at 155, ended up at the aforementioned 187.)

Those who have seen my picture will swear "but you couldn't possibly weigh that much!"

Here's a clue, guys ... make that two:

I'm 5'10", and the average woman is 5'5" or so.

Women tend to lie about their weight because the socially accepted numbers are, for some bizarre reason, 5'7" and 115-125 pounds.

A man with my height and weight might be thought to be slightly heavy but wouldn't get the "you must be a fat PIG!" reaction. Granted, women on average weigh less than men on average. But even at the IDEAL weight for someone of my height (155-170 or so), others would have the "fat pig" reaction to the numbers.

Now, all that said, I've only been told that I must be, or am, a fat pig by two groups of people: clueless net-trolls (like the one who told me I'm too fat to fence), and heterosexual women.

Anyway, guys, whatever you may have been led to believe, the ladies aren't putting on makeup, obsessively dieting, etc. for YOU. They're competing with each other, at least in part because "beauty" is one of the few traditionally acceptable areas for women to compete with each other (or at all!) in.

And ladies ... most men don't want to date someone with a perfectly made-up face who picks at a salad at dinner so she won't get fat. And the ones that DO are seriously not worth your time if doing this sort of thing makes you uncomfortable.

*grin*

Re:Pretty cool - or maybe not

[K.]

It would be an interesting sway if the modeling world was overtaken by CGI. Then, perhaps, the exploitation of beautiful women all over the world will halt.

I'd worry more about women in general. "Perfect" CG models being held up as an ideal aren't going to do much for the average teenager's body image.

K.
-
How come there's an "open source" entry in the

Movies mirrored here

[mulle]

Just in case anybody wants them...

body.mpg
hipwag1.mpg
hipwag2.mpg
hipwag3.mpg
walk-1-dress.mpg
walk-2-dress.mpg
walk-3-dress.mpg

speech.mpg is over 5 megs but I'll upload it as soon as I get it here.

Ah, found it...

[Paul Brown]

Steven Stahlberg's 3D Gallery:

http://www.optidigit.com/stevens/

Re:Idoru... Yeah, they exist

[Francisco]

Yes, virtual idols are real. Hmm, that didn't sound right... um, anyway, check this out: There is a virtual idol called Kyoko Date, she has a life story and everything. Nice graphics, not quite photorealistic, but very nice.

http://www.etud.insa-tlse.fr/~mdumas/kyoko.html

Social Implications?

[kramer]

As much as I hate to deal with the social implications of most issues this one strikes me as particuarly insidious.

I know there are plenty of Women who bemoan the fact that they "don't look like the models do". How are they going to feel when the models are computer generated and may have anatomical configurations not even possible in real life? In the computer they can tweak everything, muscle tone, body fat, hell they can even tweak gravity if they feel like it.

Further, aren't models supposed to show us what the garment will look like "in real life"? What's the point of having a model that doesn't really exist? It's going to be an idealized version of what the designer thinks the clothes should look like. You might as well just look at his inital sketches.

Re:Social Implications?

[laetus]

I agree. We are bombarded minute-by-minute with images of "pretty people" that do not exist and these images are held up as ideals to which we should aspire.

I remember watching a PBS special about computer graphics in the modeling industry and watching as a graphics artist neatly sliced off the fatty portion of the inner thigh of Cindy Crawford and a baggy bit of her upper arm in a photo that, in real life, was not too flattering, but after not-so-subtle alteration, was featured on the cover of some women's magazine.

My point? Dissatisfaction with one's body is at a level where children and young adults are even getting plastic surgery:

BBC: Clinic considers cosmetic surgery for 11-year-old
BBC: More young women seek cosmetic surgery

and I believe that much of this has to do with this manipulative imagery.

Re:The "average woman"

[fable2112]

OK, granted. I could, myself, stand to lose some weight.

However, I'd rather be 20 pounds overweight than a) yo-yo diet or b) have an eating disorder. It's also healthier.

I would have probably ended up with an eating disorder when I was 13 and skinny, but I am hypoglycemic and get severely ill if I skip meals. I also never "mastered the art" of making myself throw up.

As it was, I dealt with a close friend in college, who was at a "healthy" weight, who would eat an ice cream cone, say "I'm so BAD!" and go to the workout center for five hours. This is neither healthy nor appropriate. Neither was the officeful of women at my former job who all went on the same dangerous fad diet at the same time. I tried it for a day, got severely sick to my stomach, and almost passed out. It's not worth it.

And fine, give us models that are an appropriate "healthy" weight. Don't give us Kate Moss or men-in-drag-because-they-are-skinnier.

And given that plenty of people (myself and my 82-year-old grandmother included) are medically overweight but otherwise in very good health, "obese" when applied to someone who doesn't exceed the "ideal" weight by a considerable amount is about as useful of a medical diagnosis as "nymphomaniac" applied to a woman who enjoys sex "too much" by someone's standards.

Check out what is being done with Poser...

[cr0sh]

If you want the real scoop on virtual models, take a gander at what people are doing with Poser by Metacreations.

Here are some links to get you started:


RATTERS.COM - Poser Links

A Mess of Poser Links

Poser Props Guild

Greylight Internet - Poser Stuff

Baumgarten Enterprises (Poser Stuff)

Paul Hafeli Poser 3 Inspirations - Great Poser Work

The Blacksmith - Poser Props

Paul Hafeli Poser Tutorials

Bushi's Graphics Homepage - Poser Stuff

Digital Puppet Magazine (Poser in Movie Making)

Poser Forum


This is where the real action is...

If that's what you want ...

[fable2112]

Join the SCA and/or hang out at RenFaires.

True story:

I have these two SCA friends, both female. One is quite petite, the other is quite large.

The petite one was pacing around her bedroom complaining that she felt unattractive because she didn't "fill out" her garb enough and men in that particular SCA group have a real tendency to go after the larger ladies.

The larger one replied, "Now you know how *I* feel next to *you* outside the SCA!"

And the lesbian fashion show sounds fun ... though your sterotypical lesbian isn't much into fashion. :P

-fable2112, out-and-proud bi-chick

Re:Idoru...

[CrazyFraggle]

Wonder if it's ever gonna go the way of Idoru...

It has gone that way already. The model's called Lara. She only exist in computers and she advertises for different products (I've seen car ads at least).

Of course, Lara doesn't look real enough yet, but that is because the technology needs to be upgraded a few notches first. We'll get there. Soon.

I wonder how difficult it would be to write a supermodel AI? Do they think? Am I stereotyping now?

Does anyone remember the movie "Looker?"

[Spitfire1500]

This movie was made by Mr. Jurrasic Park himself back in 1980. Basically, this computer company takes scans of real-life models(just like they did in T2), and then the models get plastic surgery from the results.

Then, through the magic of computers, these models are synthesized, and some big thug with a gun kills off the real-life models.

It's a really weird, but worthwhile movie, and the computer graphics are a bit ahead of their time.

This could get interesting. Imagine taking a JPEG of someone, and have some program render a synthesized model to do anything you like. You could make that hand-puppet like in Johnny Mnemonic. fun!

Re:Does anyone remember the movie "Looker?"

[Stephen Williams]

I saw that movie years ago. It was great. I don't think it's been on TV since, and hardly anyone I know seems to have heard of it. Thanks for reassuring me that I wasn't imagining the whole thing :-)

Some points to consider

[joshv]

- Is the look of the model copyright-able? Anyone with a sufficiently powerful computer will eventually be able to generate virtual models. Will anything stop them from cloning the look of each other's models?

- I think a picture of a person has a different legal status than other types of pictures or computer generated images. What are the implications of this?

- Computer porno - these girls will do ANYTHING for free.

- Clothing, in particular fabric texture and the way fabric moves on the body is devillishly hard to simulate. Sure, they will have some stock simulated fabric types but what the model is wearing will never look/behave exactly the same way the garment does in real life.

- Some other people have pointed this out already: These models are not constrained by the human genome. They will eventually mutate into a gross caricature of the human form. Each fashion mag that uses them will tweak the current look just a bit. Bigger boobs, smaller waist, etc... Presto chango, eventually we've got barbie all over again.

-josh

I Was a Teenage Modeling Student

[fable2112]

Back when I was a skinny 13-year-old wannabe actress in dire need of learning to be graceful, I was interviewed by a modeling school and told that I "had the look" and would be a wonderful model.

My family paid almost $1000 for the classes -- and that didn't include the high heeled shoes I had to bring so I could learn to walk gracefully in them, or the makeup and makeup brushes we were "required" to have, or the photo sessions.

None of it ever went anywhere, of course. And now that I'm a not-quite-skinny 21-year-old, I'm told that I'd be a good artist's model or perhaps "large size" model (I really hate that term -- the average woman wears a size 14, folks -- try "average-sized" model).

I agree with the person who pointed out that giving teenagers CGI models to "measure up" to is likely to cause more problems. It's bad enough that in some cases, men with padded bras are considered "better" models for women's clothing than WOMEN are, because men can get down to a lower % body fat without it causing health problems.

Sorry for the rant -- this just brought up some bad memories.

How's this different?

[Amphigory]

Look... /Nobody/ looks like a fashion model anymore anyway -- not even the fashion models. See one in real life sometime; you're in for a shock.

I don't see that there's any difference between a human faked up and a tatal fake.